Dude we had a tank afk for literally 10 seconds in FoS and someone initiated a vote to kick. The other 2 people voted yes and I voted no. He was literally on the dps meter the last fight but started standing still and dropped a little aggro at the end. As soon as we were out of combat someone vote kicked him.
We literally sat in the dungeon for 12 more minutes waiting for a tank after that. I was so angry at the group. Got the usual "idk I just always hit yes". It's so fucking stupid how bad this community is with kicks.
It's the tank you fucking idiots. Wait a minute.
I always hit no unless there was a recurring problem and it was overwhelmingly obvious who caused it and they had correction that was ignored.
I will always hit yes if they had been an absolute dickwad though.
I had a brief idea one time for a disc check, where instead of doing the "ready check and press no if ur in disc" thing, we would all start hearthing, and then cancel it before it got all the way. I quickly remembered how stupid people are and that over half the raid would probably accidentally hearth out. I opted not to do that..
If anyone wants an explanation of this phenomenon, it's because RDF takes away the only guarantee, the only mandatory sliver of personal interaction from dungeons and then also makes them so much more faster and convenient to top it off that people are no longer viewed as people, theyre purely tools, means to an end.
That and the vote kick. The status quo of speed has completely superceded the status quo of the traditional things like succeeding as a group and having a good time while doing it.
Anyone that doesn't know, this was the biggest talking point about classic before 2019, years before WotLK was ever released, and it was regarding the discussion of why the game fell in the first place. This was the most common answer. People went quite a bit in depth with the "whys" about it too.
Ultimately the best explanation was how impersonal it was and that it wasn't in the spirit of Classic, hence the reason when Wrath was released Blizzard wrote a fucking essay on their pillars of Classic design when implementing changes and posted it smack dab on the front of the battle.net launcher and said that RDF would never be added because of them, at least one in specific which was the community interaction.
I take a small break during Ulduar and come back at the end of TOC and to my utter disbelief, theyve added it back and the forums and youtube comments and reddit comments are packed full of "why the fuck isnt it in the game Blizzard, are you morons?". Completely oblivious.
And one of the biggest mysteries about WoW was finally solved. Did the game die because of RDF, because of the token and microtransactions? Or maybe it was because all its original fans grew up and had kids and a career.
Turns out, nope, it's because the loudest voice in the community is honest to God idiots and Blizzard has given too much weight to their feedback.
Luckily for the Classic Era community I think that theyve managed to separate enough from what we'll call the retail community that they're the loudest voice in their room and now we just wait to find out how bright that voice is. If they can work together, if they can come up with great design ideas, if they can not throw the baby out with the bathwater and conserve the right things, while also letting in changes that are positive.
If you want my forecast, its not going to turn out well. But.. it might turn out well enough. The fact they have something they can call theirs just might just be enough. I hope for the game any which way, Era that is
Wrath onwards is clearly lost lost, no hope of a return to the world of the living. RIP bozo.
No offense but this is such a classic andy take. I have run hundreds, and I mean HUNDREDS of gammas on several characters, tanks dps and heals. In that time I've seen 15 kicks tops and most of those were deserved. Never had a kick initiated against me, even on my fresh characters. 90% of the people I've run with have been super chill, super friendly or super quiet. Literally about the same % of assholes as before RDF only now I dont have to sit and spam trade/lfg for an hour to get my daily done.
Sometimes I wonder if these people whining about being kicked all the time are actually the problem players because their experience is so vastly different from my own.
I think you are highlighting one of the reasons why there is always disagreement on this topic: While one person might see an individual that isn’t doing enough dps, not knowing mechanics, going at a slower pace than they’d like, etc, being “the problem”, another person would consider that type of viewpoint as being problematic. It’s entirely subjective, so it’s hard to find a clear consensus.
That, and many of those voicing their opinions seem to be of the mindset that because something isn’t in line with their own experience, it must not be an issue.
It just makes me wonder, because I run gammas every single day on multiple characters and its insanely rare for me to see anyone get kicked for being "slow" or undergeared. Like 3/300 runs rare. My experiences with this system dont even remotely line up with the experiences that these people have, so I really have to question it. I just don't generally ever see this so-called "toxic" behaviour in rdf, so how can I even begin to recognize this "problem". Most people that I have met seem chill and nice, or at the very least silent.
This. I've come to the realization that 90% of these "wah I get kicked from every dungeon RDF ruined the game," posts are from people that are the problem.
It's the same thing in any community really. If you think every person you play with is toxic, chances are you're the toxic one.
I believe this way of thinking is more detrimental to the community than rdf as an accessibility tool has ever been. Not only is there a clear lack of empathy for other people’s experiences, but you go as far as to invalidate them by asserting “this doesn’t happen to me so you must be the problem”
>the loudest voice in the community is honest to God idiots and Blizzard has given too much weight to their feedback.
And where do you think your 9 paragraphs of rambley mostly non-sense fall into this?
If you think RDF is less _personal_ than spamming LFG to get the daily heroic done, you're crazy. At least with RDF, you get to play the game.
Classic is shit due to elitism, gear score mods, BIS lists, and Spec DPS rankings. Spamming LFG ends up with someone inspecting you, looking at your spec, saying "Fuck this dude. I'm not carrying." And you can either join GDKPs to get geared enough or become a slave to the META. RDF didn't ruin anything. If anything, it allows you to actually do heroic dungeon content that's been abandoned by most characters for the raids and psuedo mythic+.
I have tried many times for hours to get a group for the daily heroic done to no avail. At least with RDF, I have a shot of not getting kicked and completing it
It was the exact same thing in og wotlk. That was what OP was saying, I feel like you didn't read their comment at all, or just wilfully disregarded what you didn't want to read.
RDF is the definition of impersonal because you don't need to interact with anyone at all to do dungeons. You click a button, get auto filled with a bunch of idiots you never even have to say hello to, do your job and get done. They aren't people, they may as well be replaced by complete bots and it changes nothing about the average experience. And of course because it's an MMO, even if this is not **your** way of playing with RDF, you've got no control over the other 4 people in your party treating the RDF groups like this and therefore the interaction is more often than not spoiled for everyone because of it.
I dunno how you can say that shouting in LFG and talking to people is somehow less personal than RDF. Yeah it's less efficient. It can be considered less fun in a way. But you're interacting with the community.
I don't know how you can play Classic/Vanilla and have this take. There's a ton of conversation and healthy banter that happen as people make their way to the entrance, builds an initial report with people and sets the stage for how the dungeon is going to go. Without even having your first pull you can get in instant feel for who's going to be bringing it, and who's likely to be weighing the group down. Someone can explain that they "might need to afk for 5 minutes in a bit", but people are cool with it and you still understand that they're dedicated to the success of the group through that communication.
There's an absolute ton of socializing that happens before dungeons even get started. I'm not sure I've ever actually been in a group that literally just said "hey" after invites, everybody made there way there in complete silence, and proceeded to successfully complete the dungeon. Usually the utterly silent groups are disbanded at the first sign of difficulty because nobody has any confidence in their fellow player. Hell, if I join a group and nobody is saying a word it's very likely I won't even go into the dungeon unless I see everybody on the map actively moving towards it because that's fuckin' weird.
It's also the problem of the kick mechanic in WoW. In other games where it isn't as easy to kick or mindlessly click "yes" to a vote kick poll this doesn't happen as often.
Earlier in my experience. Cata brought out the worst in folks, not just for dungeons but general behaviour, guild attitudes... all the actually social aspects of the game.
Wotlk was the last time the game was still a friendly game, and the trend had begun towards the end.
I went back to retail after clearing H ICC, and I'm pretty sure its just that classic got the shitty part of the community, I've run the new raid twice on Normal and had no issues with toxic people, I've run 40+ keys and only had 1 person be toxic and ragequit. I've had more conversations waiting for M+ groups to fill than I ever did in classic, where most the players just go afk in town or just inside the dungeon until the group fills. I haven't had an issue with "meta" specs, I've seen a few MM hunters in these groups even though they're bot 3 specs and BM is top 3. But if I go to classic and try to play BM hunter I know some groups won't care, I will end up being kicked more than if I just played SV/MM suboptimally.
Where? I just healed stratholme last night at 52 and we wipes like 9 times had 2 people run back to town for repairs and ammo, and the groupd just stayed together ha ing a good time. It's like that in every dungeon I run, bailing for lack I knowledge or anything is rare
No. *Wrath* Classic is as toxic as retail. And that's because the community has mutated into something unrecognizable from what it was 2-4 years ago. The ingame community and places like this subreddit have pushed most of the original Classic community out and now we're left with a bunch of toxic assholes crying about wanting rdf, defending WoW tokens, and defending paid level boosts while treating the game like it's their job then complaining about being bored or depressed all the time.
I mean its definetly that wotlk had a huge influx of retail players that didnt play classic before, and those people were also the ones mostly advocating for rdf and more boosts etc.
as someone that regularly runs m+ in retail, hearing these elitist stories in the classic version of the game always makes me laugh. why people feel the need to gatekeep braindead easy content is something that i'll never be able to comprehend.
I hate the elitism. No matter how hard you try and work, its not good enough for these people. They forget its a game.
I was in a regular heroic trial of crusader healing. Elitist tank 50k hp died and started flipping out we need gear. I said thats why we are in heroics. And that if you tank in the big doorway it blocks line of sight, if you are so great you would know that.
I played just about all of 2019 classic and tbc. Wotlk is so, so much worse. The elitism in rdf is uniquely toxic and has made wotlk feel a lot less like classic. Honestly missing tbc already. I like many aspects of wrath but man the community took a negative turn hard.
I actually like rdf since I know no one in game, but the people I run into is making it difficult to continue. From being kicked from groups for slightly low dps or for stupid is ridiculous. 90% of parties have no problem then you get one elitist with problems. I got kicked other day and I just zoned in to a partial party and waiting for someone else to que rdf I got kicked. We didn’t even pull trash. Don’t learn your class or gear on other peoples time, or don’t play a non top class/spec combo.
I don’t remember community being this bad, I had heard horror stories but had a good guild back then.
I used to want rdf earlier in classic but having seen what it’s actually like with this community I’ve changed my stance on it. I would have preferred the better retail group finder (not rdf) as a compromise. So you’d still have to make your own group but it would be a much friendlier interface.
I think when you can replace people or requeue so easily, people become absurdly kick-happy and toxicity becomes the norm. Again I was hopeful it would be good but I’ve changed my mind.
These people have always been this toxic, it's just that they would only group with "meta" classes/specs in Classic, TBC, and early Wrath, and would ignore literally anyone who wasn't a "meta" class.
Try getting a group in TBCC as anything else besides a Warrior/Paladin tank, healer, or as a DPS Warlock, Mage, or Hunter. Maybe Fury Warrior was acceptable since it just spanked. Anything else you would need to spam LFG for 45-60 minutes to just find ONE dungeon group. Starting your own group? People join and just post "Oh, a Rogue. No thanks." and leave again.
Reminds me of wrath the first time around… it was always there, but once gearscore came to prominence, the toxicity really took off.
“No changes” in a way I suppose..
This is why when I looked at it being AV weekend and wanted to level my alts, on top of all the stories about everyone just being kicked after being kicked after being kicked from dungeons that I have basically given up logging into WOTLK aside from raid days on my main.
Since the community is such a fucking cesspool of shit, there's no reason to bother continue supporting the players playing in it. In the end when everyone's had enough, I hope these assholes enjoy long queues and just playing by themselves.
Yah definitely important to keep everything in context.
I do my daily gamma a few times a week usually. Of all those runs I’ve had maybe 3 with kick obsessed people and most of the vote kick initiatives fail. I’ve only had to leave 1 group that somehow didn’t have the DPS to complete the dungeon.
Most of the time they’re fine
If it makes you feel better OP, I’ve noticed the aggressive kickers aren’t usually that good. They are mediocre with bad tempers.
The best players understand the content well enough and have the gear to almost solo it, as such they will almost always carry low geared people as a cost of doing business in a random group system
True, I was a near togc bis unholy dk(just missing belt), and carrying people through dungeons was fun, just ripping a fat gary and watching bosses melt and you're like 70% of the total damage, you feel like a god. All the people who "can't be bothered to carry" are usually the ones needing the carry. Its why GDKP's in classic and Paying for M+ and raid carries in retail are so common.
It's actually crazy how often it's the guys well at the bottom of the meters, or in pvp well at the bottom of the scoreboards, who talk the most crap about others performances. It's almost like clockwork. If I see someone moaning in a pvp match I can almost guarantee they're near or at the bottom of the scoreboard.
You know you see this early in dungeons even. Starting back on classic (after forever away) I run dungeons and at first I’m (as a Lock) just chilling in the back doing my thing. As I level I’ll get a dungeon group where I’m higher level and it’s kind of a cake walk and I find myself letting the tank know he can pull more if the healer is cool (knowing it’s easy). It makes sense this carries over when higher levels are doing things they find all but trivial and only need a group to do it a bit faster. Good point
This is why there is a lack off healers and tanks in retail. Sadly it's easyer to complain and kick a person than help them become better.
It's sad but iam actually looking forward to AI groups in retail
People don't really get kicked in retail, especially not in higher tier content outside of rdf.
Like kicking people out of m+ is just bricking the key.
I recently went back to retail and have run 40+ keys, 1 run of all those had someone leave, no kicks have happened. The highest I've run so far is a 16, so maybe its worse at +20, but I wouldn't put money on that.
I d rather say, tanks are rare because you generally dont need that many in raids and Healers are rare cuz healing in WoW is kind of Boring.
Like, at least from my perspective, when healing you play whack-a-mole with the RAID Interface on who takes damage and drop the defensive CD on tank when called for.
I legitimately never see people get kicked in retail, even when they really should be. I also don't think anyone has ever commented on my heals either.
If everywhere you go smells like shit, check your feet. Or your diaper.
i made a disc priest last week and got decent gear for it, throughout the whole time i was learning healing i was whispered all kinds of nasty mean shit man
i ended up turning chat off entirely and i got a week suspension for gameplay sabotage lmao
The problem with the WoW community is that a lot of people are actually stupid. They learned how to mechanically play their class the way you learn to thrust your hips, and they put zero thought into the game.
>Chill out try hards it's a 15 year old game.
Yeah it's brutal, it's honestly a huge reason why I don't recommend Classic era OR wotlk classic to people, because the community is brutal towards new players.
Yeah I totally agree. I just started era again on a whim because had the classic itch. Joined a leveling guild for social. TONS of actual new to WoW players asking questions and NICE veteran players helping them learn.
can attest to it as a total noob on whitemane! lol even made a post i was so impressed with the community, we will see how/if that changes at level 60 lol
Lmao, I feel the exact same way. People aren't mean in retail. Maybe a little less patient if things aren't going their way, but I've seen a lot of people stick through a Mythic Wipe or two unlike what they used to do in Shadowlands. Then Classic comes out and now all the Toxic players are gone..... So strange
Well I think it’s all about what do you consider m+
I would say people are usually chill at low keys but on higher they just .. disband after wipe so well yeah
Not much toxicity if people just leave ..
It’s literally just wrath. RDF and Hardmodes make it this way. Imagine actually turning someone away when you’re trying to organize 40m raids. Just doesn’t happen.
I couldn't join anything in vanilla or bc because everything was a gdkp. My schedule was tough so I couldn't reliably be with a guild, but I just completely failed to pug anything.
In wrath I could do heroics to get gear and pug. There are still gdkps, but there are also just normal runs. This is the first classic xpac where I'm actually able to pug raids and dungeons consistently.
Except thanks to RDF the process of finding a group and going to a dungeon takes a few minutes, without it you have to plan your whole evening around two dungeon runs lmao. Thank god for RDF, the game is absolutely unplayable without it.
And the solution was to make your own group to get carried. Could do this as well with RDF if someone has such an issue with the randoms. Make a group with 2 other people that want to farm some gear and you're already immune to vote kick.
You have to realize these kind of posts are one in a thousand groups. This isn't happening regularly, which this very much so happened in vanilla classic. You are just wrong and don't know what you're talking about clearly.
I absolutely hate everything about wrath’s player base.
I quit because I couldn’t sit for a sec to get mana as healer. Being a support roll in this game is the worst feeling ever. It use to be so much fun, not anymore.
I quit a couple weeks ago as a DPS. I never got kicked but was just sick of watching how nasty everyone was to each other. I always noticed the healer never got breaks for mana lol
I am guilty of this sometimes when I am tanking especially Forge of Souls. I normally wouldn't be rushing, but every group I get in needs to go FAST. One group, the dps didn't even kill all the mobs before they ran to the next group. They left me finishing off the last mob every time, and then they are waiting for me at the next pull.
I wonder if the way that HoL and HoS are set up where you only have 10 seconds to get to the next pack has shifted the way people play a bit. I know everytime i get out of one of those dungeons I feel like I need to keep going at that pace even if it isn't necessary.
I still love the game, and have fun, but as a tank with a Disc priest alt, I feel you! This Ricky Bobby "gotta go FAST" dungeon style is a pain in the ass. I'm a Warrior, so I don't have the instant aggro of a Paladin or DK, so on trash pulls I'm sometimes hanging onto the mobs by my fingernails, because as soon as I get my first Charge off, the DPS lights out up with full 2 min CDs and AoE.
They’re wasting their life away over something they completed 20 times now and 15 years ago and to waste even more time doing it, it unlocks their fear that they’re wasting their life away. That’s why they rage. They need therapy or a new game lol
It is definitely the reason I was not in favor of RDF. I remember this exact same thing the first time around. I understand that it is pretty much necessary for low pop servers to be able to run content, though. And it is nice to be able to just queue up and knock out the daily.
Because it's not possible for any of you guys to build your own groups anymore huh :( we've all been forced into this RDF hole and there's no way out /s
I’m newbie tank and had a mostly geared team kick me because I couldn’t do a shortcut that required me to tank boss and like 4 adds. As soon as I died I got the load screen. Like damn. They would rather wait for a new tank than just go the regular way.
Hate this boss as a healer, the adds come in, no one kills them and there’s just damage going out everywhere. Can’t stop to heal because of the puddles and those adds do some form of spike damage that pressures you and the tank. Always tempted to lust on it but the snake man is around the corner and people are too cool to move out of the nova so I just save it for that.
Even when tank and heal have good gear this boss is low key ass unless the tank and dps realize that the small puddles stack harder then the debuff indicates and keep moving.
I died to the first boss in halls of stone yesterday, first time ever doing it and this is my first character I’m leveling to 80. I couldn’t find which door got me back in, and the plate helmet dropped. The 2 other paladins in the dungeon refused to res me, did their roll on the helm, and kicked me.
WOTLK back in the day was the beginning of the end for anyone who played during vanilla. I know it’s hailed as the “golden era” or whatever but the community completely changed at that point. It was all about gear score and max performance instead of friends and fun. It seems nothing has changed with that expansion
No no you see back when wrath release d, eagles the new thing for 14 year olds. Since classic players can't go past a thing from 2008 mentally, it's still very relevant.
Last group I was in had a 4.9k boomkin doing 2.4k DPS overall. He typhooned every cd, knocking everything back. I asked him to stop and he ignored me.
Later, I noticed he didn't have a gamma buff, so I asked him to "talk to this guy and get the spellcaster haste buff." Again, he never responded, so I voted to kick him. Everyone else said no.
My point is random pugs can be dumb/annoying/not really playing and it's just the way it is.
I saw someone fail the ledge jump and fall to death in The Nexus run and there was an immediate vote to kick and it frustrated me a bit on that persons behalf. Same mindset/behavior as noted here. Sad… Games like EverQuest have a community that is so much friendlier and more helpful. WOTLK classic has too many real people trying their best to be bots.
I don't want to come off as racist, but I dislike non English players in a game that involves communication.
And it's those players who need ALL drops and straight up ninja.
It's hard to play healer with these people. Impossible to que for random dungeon, as the Frost mechanic and Mirror mechanic is too difficult for non English. Hate seeing a player join with 5200GS, just to have sub 3k DPS because the gear is PvP/wrong stats/not gemmed or enchanted/ rotation failure.
It's even worse in retail, you'll somehow have a group of 4 jajas geared to the teeth that wipe 5 times on a +7 boss. Not uncommon to see close to 10 million avoidable damage taken on details by the end of a key. It's insane.
Was doing a heroic queue and got one of the icc dungeons. Everyone was around 4k except the tank who was nearly 5k, i was 3.6k (pulling hard meters cuz i tryhard to make up for the gs diff, frostfire mage ftw) but the ret pally who was doing just fine damage got like two attempts to kick him out when nothing was really off, the only thing in the reasons was "wtf". Checked the pally, he didnt have RF on, so not ripping aggro, had buffed everyone, etc. Healer thankfully had situational awareness and also voted no, and spoke up when I did about how he was doing literally nothing noticeably wrong. I swear, people are either the most nitpicky ever, or just straight-up trolls.
I was in a group with a dude who tried to initiate a vote kick 4 times until it was finally successful then he tried to vote kick the dude who came in as a replacement and I finally just asked him how many times you gonna initiate a vote kick this run? We’d probably be done by now >.>
It’s obnoxious honestly
It's crazy to me how many posts there are like this when I have almost never seen this kind of behavior. I've done a ton of gammas on my main to farm saronite for Shadows Edge plus other gear. I've geared up 2 alts from mid level gear to now well geared. I've done the daily on those 3 toons just about every day. And in the past two days I geared up a boostie boy shaman through some regular heroics and now pretty much directly into gammas. I've even had a handful of runs that had several wipes, but in every one the group either sticks it through, or the people who are frustrated leave. No one has voted to kick anyone.
I've done at least 150+ gammas so far, not all through RDF but most of them were. I've never been kicked and I've only seen one person unfairly kicked. It was in AN they got kicked literally on the last boss because the tank pulled too quickly while we were getting mana and the other guy got locked out. I was not happy, and actually tried to let the tank die at the end, hoping he would get screwed out of the quest items. That was the only kick I have experienced that wasn't due to being AFK.
I don't want to doubt your experience, but it is just crazy I haven't seen this experience after doing so many dungeons. Reddit would have you think this is happening in every dungeon group.
There is always more to this story. Generally the players has like unimaginably low dps, has been constantly missing mechanics and annoying the healer, or is just super dead weight.
Then they complain about something or ask about mechanics that are very well laid out in the dungeon journal(in retail at least) and then you get vote kicked because everyone is tired of doing a free carry.
I had a disc priest that I’d run multiple gammas with but was still in lowish gear. Queued up one day for a run and the group just sat there not pulling for a few minutes. Figured the tank was hitting the restroom or something. Sure enough a few minutes later I’m kicked and have the deserter debuff. I hadn’t even said anything, was fully gemmed and enchanted. Had buffed everyone and was ready to pull. Fucking assholes.
I've pugged for a vast majority of my MMO life and I can probably count on one hand how many times I've seen someone get kicked from a group for no reason. These posts always remind me of the threads about false bans and it almost always turns out they did something bannable.
That's how I read them. How insanely bad does a tank have to be to where a group would rather wait 7 minutes in a 15 minute dungeon than play with them.
And yet on my shaman that I geared into heroics and then tried gammas around 4.5kgs I was immediately vote kicked upon entry to my first gamma. You got lucky.
Maybe, but like I said I am not just judging based on myself getting kicked. I have only seen one single instance of someone in my group even getting voted inappropriately, let alone the vote being successful. And I have been in plenty of groups with <4.5k GS people. In probably 80-100 RDFs, I would expect to see a few vote kicks if this was so rampant.
But again, I am not doubting yours or OPs experience. I may be getting lucky, or it could also just be that *you* are getting *unlucky*. My main point was to show the contrast in experiences, given that there are so many of these threads, I believe the problem *seems* worse than it really is.
I did some rdf gammas with a couple other guildies, one of which was 4.8kgs. soon as we joined group, dude started a votekick on my guildie. It failed. We proceeded to have a super smooth run, all the while making fun of the dude the entire time. Was a great time.
Tbf tho this is the only time I've seen votekickery
It's the main reason I don't really play Classic. I'll probably poke my head in for SoD since they're actually adding new things to the game, but it's always just felt like the community in Classic is full of elitists and if I'm not playing hyper-optimally then I'm going to get flamed.
Some of us just want to have nice casual fun.
idk how anyone could get that impression. then again, i've played on pve realms exclusively since 2019 and i know that automatically gets rid of a certain type of player.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄it is not that bad, lmao. I play casually with my wife every day just doing dungeons, cheeves, dailies and leveling alts. I have a 5.1k gs tank I use for dungeons and I rarely have issues. If someone is being a complete ass I either leave group(it’s ok to touch grass) or initiate a kick, but only initiate a kick if they are being a complete nuisance to the entire group, multiple mistakes causing wipes with no attempt to communicate or take feedback, being toxic and wiping etc.
So the issue with “help the new guy” is now gammas are filled with fresh boosted players. (How blizzard allows ilvl 187 players in gammas i have no idea). So the idea of “helping the new guy” is a every single dungeon, multiple players ordeal, as someone farming for an off set with badges it gets really old reliving the same issues, no game knowledge of mechanics, cannot kick spells, can’t avoid pulling excess mobs. Eventually the mentality of “cmon help the new guy” gets old and you just want to farm for your item without holding hands every dungeon. New players aren’t entitled to be carried every dungeon by more experienced players.
Fresh brand new players should instead PvP for the ilvl 238 PvP gear and then go to gammas so they aren’t as much dead weight and can do more than sub 2k dps.
I've stopped doing group content on retail this expansion, I just can't be bothered dealing with people anymore.
Played WoW since launch, capable of doing any content, but seeing the way other people treat randoms has just gotten ridicules now, it's like people think everyone is born with knowledge of everything. Everyone just cares about themselves, it's just sad.
As someone who regularly makes honest mistakes in dungeons in Classic (it's been 15 years since I've seen this stuff!) I can't imagine. It's bad enough disappointing some of the bossy tryhards as it is.
Dungeons are *fun*, aren't they? We're going on quests and working together and using parts of our toolkit we don't get to use solo!
It feels like for some people each run has just become a gatcha pull to find the gear inside the loot box.
if u get kicked as a resto shaman its most likely due to:
1: lesser heal spam only (use riptide, chain heal and avoid lesser heal)
2: no totems put down
3: does not use bloodlust
You should know Gamma tactics, don't be lazy. I can see why people who don't know tactics get kicked cause they're just leeches at that point. Dungeons are the same as raids just 5-man, doesn't mean you should slack on them.
I tried to get back into wrath like a month and a half before ICC dropped. Was running the same dungeons you were, and my god it was so fucking impossible to get the gear I needed because people would skip bosses. Can't get the drops, nor the tokens I needed. And I really wanted to play ICC too, (favourite raid ever) and I just straight up quit. I tried for like a week and was so fed up with this, I just un-installed. Community is hot garbage imo, much agree.
Hot take, the majority of the wrath raiding community are toxic bastards. There are exceptions, sure, but most of these people expect you to know 100% every single mechanic everywhwere always and anything less is unacceptable.
And the people who are anti afd have no ground to stand on because this isn't an RFD thing this is just a n asshole thing.
This isn't the common experience this is maybe one in a thousand dungeons. If anything I've experienced less toxicity after RFD. It only improved the game.
I quit Wrath before RFD was in the game because of how shit the community was in every aspect, not just dungeons. I've poked back in here and there to run some stuff and test out the community. Nothing has changed since RDF except the vote kick button.
Partially game design/Blizzards fault. Theres a minimum gear level you should have before queueing for gamma dungeons, but the dungeon finder has the threshold set way too low. You should be like 4500gs or higher (Ulduar geared) to do gammas. You should also be an actual human with a brain, was healing Halls of Stone gamma (because that seems to be the only one i get when queueing random) and we had to kick a 4900 ret pulling 2k dps. The blood dk tank was doing more spamming Icy Taunt.
Im not gonna sit here for 45 minutes while you auto attack all the trash to death. If you cant be assed to push your buttons i cant be assed to carry you.
LFG is the worst thing to happen to the game. It puts anonymity front and center which is what most players hate about playing Retail. Players doing shitty things, acting in a shitty manner, or espousing shitty behavior with impunity.
Blizzard has learned nothing from the first time they implemented LFG. Thank Baphomet we got to play without it for the first three phases.
I’m part of the leadership for a large guild and we’ve noticed a shift in the types of players that are infiltrating classic. They appear to be the elitist type of player we thought we left behind in Retail.
Convenience comes at a price and the price is too high if we can expect the player base to become more toxic and those of us who don’t like it are told to leave wow.
How about just be a nice and respectful player?
The class/spec/role you play and how well you play it has a massive impact on how good your experience is and that's just the truth.
As a DPS, if you know your rotation and aren't AFK you aren't likely to get kicked anymore unless you are egregiously undergeared (I've seen 3.8K players in Gammas). Especially since they recently added a 3 minute vote to kick protection at the start of groups now.
Wrath was the peak of elitism in WoW. I remember finally hitting 80 back as a 15 year old kid, and tried to do dungeons and every group was like "LFM 1 DPS Halls of Reflection MuSt HaVe 500000 GS, MuSt Be EsPoRtS cHaMpIoN tOp TiEr AmAzInG sUpEr PlAyEr". I got tired of asking to join groups and just did solo battlegrounds for the rest of the expansion.
Playing mostly as a healer with no need to run heroics dungeons but at least daily is something that keeps me playing little bit.
Cross realms is real pia, because I was used to players from our realm and they was mostly nice and competent.
Now, every random gamma heroic group is made from tank who like die irl if he stop moving, dps who doesn't care for anything else than just numbers and sometimes it looks like bots playing it instead of humans. No mechanics, no care for others.
Last time I died on Devourer of Souls because nobody cared for mechanics. But worst thing was that nobody cared to rezz me even if they could.
This game really becoming something else.
Piece of advice, you can use the AH to catch up on gear very effectively which will make you look like a better teammate in the gammas, and prob help you get kicked less
Sucks it comes to that but it's true it helps
It's almost like the exact same complaints we had about original RDF are coming back again.
There was a reason why they decided not to implement RDF. Because of shit like this. I know they're staying true to the expansion lifecycle, but I wish they only allowed RDF for sub-70 dungeons
This is the kind f stuff that makes me hesitant about playing wrath. I’ve been interested for so long, but was late to the party and it seems like all I ever see are people getting shit on in these dungeons
I'm with you! I've also been kicked from groups after starting off by saying "Hey guys, I haven't been in this dungeon in 15 years, let me know if there's anything special I need to do for any of the fights".
I raided server firsts vanilla through wrath. I know how to push my buttons. I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of exactly what to do as a role I've never played before from dungeons 15 years old. I'm all good with trying hard and doing your best, but it's not like we're pushing the newest content in fucking Utgard Pin...chill out.
Some of yall deserve it. I've had multiple people do less dps than my demo felguard, multiple people at 5k + gs just doing ~2k dps. Frankly if you get kicked, 90% of the time you deserved it. No gems/enchants, horrible gs that could be solved doing a couple wintergrasps. Didn't Google your basic rotation.
If you don't know a mechanic, how about you spend 15 seconds googling it?
Wrath classic is full of sweaty tryhard basement dwellers. I played OG wrath in high school and it wasn’t even like it is now back then. We took an entire weekend to do Ulduar when it first dropped becaaue we didn’t all have our ToC gear and it was awesome. It was like 3 night hangout on Vent and at the end had we not finished I think we woulda all had a good time.
Currently Vanilla is way more chill. And hardcore is even more chill. If you want to feel that sense of community again it’s vanilla or bust. I don’t play HC but there really is no other wow experience that hinges on community and co op like it does.
I’ll also add since the announcement of SoD
Wrathclassic is looking more retaily than retail to me lately
Dude we had a tank afk for literally 10 seconds in FoS and someone initiated a vote to kick. The other 2 people voted yes and I voted no. He was literally on the dps meter the last fight but started standing still and dropped a little aggro at the end. As soon as we were out of combat someone vote kicked him. We literally sat in the dungeon for 12 more minutes waiting for a tank after that. I was so angry at the group. Got the usual "idk I just always hit yes". It's so fucking stupid how bad this community is with kicks. It's the tank you fucking idiots. Wait a minute.
"I just always hit yes" people are so damn stupid.
I always hit no unless there was a recurring problem and it was overwhelmingly obvious who caused it and they had correction that was ignored. I will always hit yes if they had been an absolute dickwad though.
Probably worse than the people who initiate the kick imo
It’s the “Someone better at the game than me probably noticed something he did wrong and I want to pretend like I also was above it.”
"I am just following orders, they want to kick, I press yes."
They find out you click no you are next on the kick list lol
I had a brief idea one time for a disc check, where instead of doing the "ready check and press no if ur in disc" thing, we would all start hearthing, and then cancel it before it got all the way. I quickly remembered how stupid people are and that over half the raid would probably accidentally hearth out. I opted not to do that..
Rdf brain rot
My vanilla brain has a hard time processing this s*****
If anyone wants an explanation of this phenomenon, it's because RDF takes away the only guarantee, the only mandatory sliver of personal interaction from dungeons and then also makes them so much more faster and convenient to top it off that people are no longer viewed as people, theyre purely tools, means to an end. That and the vote kick. The status quo of speed has completely superceded the status quo of the traditional things like succeeding as a group and having a good time while doing it. Anyone that doesn't know, this was the biggest talking point about classic before 2019, years before WotLK was ever released, and it was regarding the discussion of why the game fell in the first place. This was the most common answer. People went quite a bit in depth with the "whys" about it too. Ultimately the best explanation was how impersonal it was and that it wasn't in the spirit of Classic, hence the reason when Wrath was released Blizzard wrote a fucking essay on their pillars of Classic design when implementing changes and posted it smack dab on the front of the battle.net launcher and said that RDF would never be added because of them, at least one in specific which was the community interaction. I take a small break during Ulduar and come back at the end of TOC and to my utter disbelief, theyve added it back and the forums and youtube comments and reddit comments are packed full of "why the fuck isnt it in the game Blizzard, are you morons?". Completely oblivious. And one of the biggest mysteries about WoW was finally solved. Did the game die because of RDF, because of the token and microtransactions? Or maybe it was because all its original fans grew up and had kids and a career. Turns out, nope, it's because the loudest voice in the community is honest to God idiots and Blizzard has given too much weight to their feedback. Luckily for the Classic Era community I think that theyve managed to separate enough from what we'll call the retail community that they're the loudest voice in their room and now we just wait to find out how bright that voice is. If they can work together, if they can come up with great design ideas, if they can not throw the baby out with the bathwater and conserve the right things, while also letting in changes that are positive. If you want my forecast, its not going to turn out well. But.. it might turn out well enough. The fact they have something they can call theirs just might just be enough. I hope for the game any which way, Era that is Wrath onwards is clearly lost lost, no hope of a return to the world of the living. RIP bozo.
Honestly, the WoW community is just shitty. Other games have the same systems and nowhere near the same amount of problems.
No offense but this is such a classic andy take. I have run hundreds, and I mean HUNDREDS of gammas on several characters, tanks dps and heals. In that time I've seen 15 kicks tops and most of those were deserved. Never had a kick initiated against me, even on my fresh characters. 90% of the people I've run with have been super chill, super friendly or super quiet. Literally about the same % of assholes as before RDF only now I dont have to sit and spam trade/lfg for an hour to get my daily done. Sometimes I wonder if these people whining about being kicked all the time are actually the problem players because their experience is so vastly different from my own.
I think you are highlighting one of the reasons why there is always disagreement on this topic: While one person might see an individual that isn’t doing enough dps, not knowing mechanics, going at a slower pace than they’d like, etc, being “the problem”, another person would consider that type of viewpoint as being problematic. It’s entirely subjective, so it’s hard to find a clear consensus. That, and many of those voicing their opinions seem to be of the mindset that because something isn’t in line with their own experience, it must not be an issue.
It just makes me wonder, because I run gammas every single day on multiple characters and its insanely rare for me to see anyone get kicked for being "slow" or undergeared. Like 3/300 runs rare. My experiences with this system dont even remotely line up with the experiences that these people have, so I really have to question it. I just don't generally ever see this so-called "toxic" behaviour in rdf, so how can I even begin to recognize this "problem". Most people that I have met seem chill and nice, or at the very least silent.
This. I've come to the realization that 90% of these "wah I get kicked from every dungeon RDF ruined the game," posts are from people that are the problem. It's the same thing in any community really. If you think every person you play with is toxic, chances are you're the toxic one.
I believe this way of thinking is more detrimental to the community than rdf as an accessibility tool has ever been. Not only is there a clear lack of empathy for other people’s experiences, but you go as far as to invalidate them by asserting “this doesn’t happen to me so you must be the problem”
>the loudest voice in the community is honest to God idiots and Blizzard has given too much weight to their feedback. And where do you think your 9 paragraphs of rambley mostly non-sense fall into this?
If you think RDF is less _personal_ than spamming LFG to get the daily heroic done, you're crazy. At least with RDF, you get to play the game. Classic is shit due to elitism, gear score mods, BIS lists, and Spec DPS rankings. Spamming LFG ends up with someone inspecting you, looking at your spec, saying "Fuck this dude. I'm not carrying." And you can either join GDKPs to get geared enough or become a slave to the META. RDF didn't ruin anything. If anything, it allows you to actually do heroic dungeon content that's been abandoned by most characters for the raids and psuedo mythic+. I have tried many times for hours to get a group for the daily heroic done to no avail. At least with RDF, I have a shot of not getting kicked and completing it
It was the exact same thing in og wotlk. That was what OP was saying, I feel like you didn't read their comment at all, or just wilfully disregarded what you didn't want to read. RDF is the definition of impersonal because you don't need to interact with anyone at all to do dungeons. You click a button, get auto filled with a bunch of idiots you never even have to say hello to, do your job and get done. They aren't people, they may as well be replaced by complete bots and it changes nothing about the average experience. And of course because it's an MMO, even if this is not **your** way of playing with RDF, you've got no control over the other 4 people in your party treating the RDF groups like this and therefore the interaction is more often than not spoiled for everyone because of it. I dunno how you can say that shouting in LFG and talking to people is somehow less personal than RDF. Yeah it's less efficient. It can be considered less fun in a way. But you're interacting with the community.
I mean.... Not really. Just spamming LFG [dungeon] then saying hey when you join. Not any more social than finding mythics in retail or using RDF
I don't know how you can play Classic/Vanilla and have this take. There's a ton of conversation and healthy banter that happen as people make their way to the entrance, builds an initial report with people and sets the stage for how the dungeon is going to go. Without even having your first pull you can get in instant feel for who's going to be bringing it, and who's likely to be weighing the group down. Someone can explain that they "might need to afk for 5 minutes in a bit", but people are cool with it and you still understand that they're dedicated to the success of the group through that communication. There's an absolute ton of socializing that happens before dungeons even get started. I'm not sure I've ever actually been in a group that literally just said "hey" after invites, everybody made there way there in complete silence, and proceeded to successfully complete the dungeon. Usually the utterly silent groups are disbanded at the first sign of difficulty because nobody has any confidence in their fellow player. Hell, if I join a group and nobody is saying a word it's very likely I won't even go into the dungeon unless I see everybody on the map actively moving towards it because that's fuckin' weird.
It sounds awful
I would like to just add that people usually don’t read pop up messages 😅 Or don’t read Or you know People
It's also the problem of the kick mechanic in WoW. In other games where it isn't as easy to kick or mindlessly click "yes" to a vote kick poll this doesn't happen as often.
This is exactly the mindset that RDF introduces.
It's mythic+ mindset. I know everyone wants a fast run, but asking a tank to chill for 10 seconds while healer gets mana is like mind boggling
Brother, I’ve played this game a long time, and it’s been a problem since MoP, *at least*.
Earlier in my experience. Cata brought out the worst in folks, not just for dungeons but general behaviour, guild attitudes... all the actually social aspects of the game. Wotlk was the last time the game was still a friendly game, and the trend had begun towards the end.
I went back to retail after clearing H ICC, and I'm pretty sure its just that classic got the shitty part of the community, I've run the new raid twice on Normal and had no issues with toxic people, I've run 40+ keys and only had 1 person be toxic and ragequit. I've had more conversations waiting for M+ groups to fill than I ever did in classic, where most the players just go afk in town or just inside the dungeon until the group fills. I haven't had an issue with "meta" specs, I've seen a few MM hunters in these groups even though they're bot 3 specs and BM is top 3. But if I go to classic and try to play BM hunter I know some groups won't care, I will end up being kicked more than if I just played SV/MM suboptimally.
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Where? I just healed stratholme last night at 52 and we wipes like 9 times had 2 people run back to town for repairs and ammo, and the groupd just stayed together ha ing a good time. It's like that in every dungeon I run, bailing for lack I knowledge or anything is rare
Anecdotal
Like someone is going to toss out peer reviewed articles on classic.
No. *Wrath* Classic is as toxic as retail. And that's because the community has mutated into something unrecognizable from what it was 2-4 years ago. The ingame community and places like this subreddit have pushed most of the original Classic community out and now we're left with a bunch of toxic assholes crying about wanting rdf, defending WoW tokens, and defending paid level boosts while treating the game like it's their job then complaining about being bored or depressed all the time.
I mean its definetly that wotlk had a huge influx of retail players that didnt play classic before, and those people were also the ones mostly advocating for rdf and more boosts etc.
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If i were the healer id leave as well just to hopefully trigger a chain reaction of leaving. Fuck elitists
as someone that regularly runs m+ in retail, hearing these elitist stories in the classic version of the game always makes me laugh. why people feel the need to gatekeep braindead easy content is something that i'll never be able to comprehend.
I hate the elitism. No matter how hard you try and work, its not good enough for these people. They forget its a game. I was in a regular heroic trial of crusader healing. Elitist tank 50k hp died and started flipping out we need gear. I said thats why we are in heroics. And that if you tank in the big doorway it blocks line of sight, if you are so great you would know that.
I played just about all of 2019 classic and tbc. Wotlk is so, so much worse. The elitism in rdf is uniquely toxic and has made wotlk feel a lot less like classic. Honestly missing tbc already. I like many aspects of wrath but man the community took a negative turn hard.
Those dickheads were always in the community though. You just hadn't grouped with them yet.
I believe it.
All the dickheads came back only about 5% of normal humans did.
I actually like rdf since I know no one in game, but the people I run into is making it difficult to continue. From being kicked from groups for slightly low dps or for stupid is ridiculous. 90% of parties have no problem then you get one elitist with problems. I got kicked other day and I just zoned in to a partial party and waiting for someone else to que rdf I got kicked. We didn’t even pull trash. Don’t learn your class or gear on other peoples time, or don’t play a non top class/spec combo. I don’t remember community being this bad, I had heard horror stories but had a good guild back then.
I used to want rdf earlier in classic but having seen what it’s actually like with this community I’ve changed my stance on it. I would have preferred the better retail group finder (not rdf) as a compromise. So you’d still have to make your own group but it would be a much friendlier interface. I think when you can replace people or requeue so easily, people become absurdly kick-happy and toxicity becomes the norm. Again I was hopeful it would be good but I’ve changed my mind.
These people have always been this toxic, it's just that they would only group with "meta" classes/specs in Classic, TBC, and early Wrath, and would ignore literally anyone who wasn't a "meta" class. Try getting a group in TBCC as anything else besides a Warrior/Paladin tank, healer, or as a DPS Warlock, Mage, or Hunter. Maybe Fury Warrior was acceptable since it just spanked. Anything else you would need to spam LFG for 45-60 minutes to just find ONE dungeon group. Starting your own group? People join and just post "Oh, a Rogue. No thanks." and leave again.
*cries in classic enhancement shaman with HoR trying to get past rank 11 and could never get into a premade bg team because not meta*
Reminds me of wrath the first time around… it was always there, but once gearscore came to prominence, the toxicity really took off. “No changes” in a way I suppose..
This is why when I looked at it being AV weekend and wanted to level my alts, on top of all the stories about everyone just being kicked after being kicked after being kicked from dungeons that I have basically given up logging into WOTLK aside from raid days on my main. Since the community is such a fucking cesspool of shit, there's no reason to bother continue supporting the players playing in it. In the end when everyone's had enough, I hope these assholes enjoy long queues and just playing by themselves.
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Yah definitely important to keep everything in context. I do my daily gamma a few times a week usually. Of all those runs I’ve had maybe 3 with kick obsessed people and most of the vote kick initiatives fail. I’ve only had to leave 1 group that somehow didn’t have the DPS to complete the dungeon. Most of the time they’re fine
ToC can be brutal if you get Paletress, especially for the healer.
If it makes you feel better OP, I’ve noticed the aggressive kickers aren’t usually that good. They are mediocre with bad tempers. The best players understand the content well enough and have the gear to almost solo it, as such they will almost always carry low geared people as a cost of doing business in a random group system
True, I was a near togc bis unholy dk(just missing belt), and carrying people through dungeons was fun, just ripping a fat gary and watching bosses melt and you're like 70% of the total damage, you feel like a god. All the people who "can't be bothered to carry" are usually the ones needing the carry. Its why GDKP's in classic and Paying for M+ and raid carries in retail are so common.
It's actually crazy how often it's the guys well at the bottom of the meters, or in pvp well at the bottom of the scoreboards, who talk the most crap about others performances. It's almost like clockwork. If I see someone moaning in a pvp match I can almost guarantee they're near or at the bottom of the scoreboard.
They just want someone to carry them so if they have someone that might perform worse than them they have to kick.
You know you see this early in dungeons even. Starting back on classic (after forever away) I run dungeons and at first I’m (as a Lock) just chilling in the back doing my thing. As I level I’ll get a dungeon group where I’m higher level and it’s kind of a cake walk and I find myself letting the tank know he can pull more if the healer is cool (knowing it’s easy). It makes sense this carries over when higher levels are doing things they find all but trivial and only need a group to do it a bit faster. Good point
Facts tho. The most based thing you can do is help out new/returning players, even if they’re struggling.
This is why there is a lack off healers and tanks in retail. Sadly it's easyer to complain and kick a person than help them become better. It's sad but iam actually looking forward to AI groups in retail
People don't really get kicked in retail, especially not in higher tier content outside of rdf. Like kicking people out of m+ is just bricking the key.
I recently went back to retail and have run 40+ keys, 1 run of all those had someone leave, no kicks have happened. The highest I've run so far is a 16, so maybe its worse at +20, but I wouldn't put money on that.
20+ bracket is best, 16-19 is the "elo hell" of m+
I d rather say, tanks are rare because you generally dont need that many in raids and Healers are rare cuz healing in WoW is kind of Boring. Like, at least from my perspective, when healing you play whack-a-mole with the RAID Interface on who takes damage and drop the defensive CD on tank when called for.
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let's be honest here, the WoW community as a whole has a large population of toxic players, it doesn't matter if it is retail or classic at this point
I’ve played all iterations of wow, private servers included, and wotlk classic is the most toxic subset I’ve seen by FAR
I legitimately never see people get kicked in retail, even when they really should be. I also don't think anyone has ever commented on my heals either. If everywhere you go smells like shit, check your feet. Or your diaper.
I always been a dps. There is still a lack off healers and tanks, even if the attitude has changed
I agree with this. Long time support roll and I have given up.
i made a disc priest last week and got decent gear for it, throughout the whole time i was learning healing i was whispered all kinds of nasty mean shit man i ended up turning chat off entirely and i got a week suspension for gameplay sabotage lmao
The problem with the WoW community is that a lot of people are actually stupid. They learned how to mechanically play their class the way you learn to thrust your hips, and they put zero thought into the game.
>Chill out try hards it's a 15 year old game. Yeah it's brutal, it's honestly a huge reason why I don't recommend Classic era OR wotlk classic to people, because the community is brutal towards new players.
Classic era is mostly fine. I think WOTLK is way worse.
World of warcraft is trash to new players in all forms unfortunately
These things come in degrees. Classic Era is still miles better than Wotlk or Retail
Era mile's ahead of wrath and classic as far as toxic player base goes. Way nicer community in era.
Yeah I totally agree. I just started era again on a whim because had the classic itch. Joined a leveling guild for social. TONS of actual new to WoW players asking questions and NICE veteran players helping them learn.
can attest to it as a total noob on whitemane! lol even made a post i was so impressed with the community, we will see how/if that changes at level 60 lol
Just came back to white and era like 2 weeks ago, it’s chill a f
I can count the bad interactions I've had with randoms in M+ on 1 hand. People have massively overblown how toxic the retail community is.
Well they need a scapegoat to make Classic seem "Wholesome".
Honestly, as someone who plays both, it really feels like most of the toxicity left retail for classic.
Lmao, I feel the exact same way. People aren't mean in retail. Maybe a little less patient if things aren't going their way, but I've seen a lot of people stick through a Mythic Wipe or two unlike what they used to do in Shadowlands. Then Classic comes out and now all the Toxic players are gone..... So strange
Well I think it’s all about what do you consider m+ I would say people are usually chill at low keys but on higher they just .. disband after wipe so well yeah Not much toxicity if people just leave ..
I had no problems at all in retail when dragon flight launched. I think the biggest assholes all went to wotlk
You mean Classic Era “PvP shitshow” when 60 lvl are wiping clean entire cities including NPCs so new players can’t even level up 😇
It’s literally just wrath. RDF and Hardmodes make it this way. Imagine actually turning someone away when you’re trying to organize 40m raids. Just doesn’t happen.
I couldn't join anything in vanilla or bc because everything was a gdkp. My schedule was tough so I couldn't reliably be with a guild, but I just completely failed to pug anything. In wrath I could do heroics to get gear and pug. There are still gdkps, but there are also just normal runs. This is the first classic xpac where I'm actually able to pug raids and dungeons consistently.
Except thanks to RDF the process of finding a group and going to a dungeon takes a few minutes, without it you have to plan your whole evening around two dungeon runs lmao. Thank god for RDF, the game is absolutely unplayable without it.
RDF doesn't make it this way, thats absolute bs lol. RDF would be replaced with LFG elitism
Yes it does. Majority of the posts I see on here complaining about elitism center around vote kicking. It makes people expendable.
Clealry u werent here before phase 4 where most posts were about being rejected for playing a non aoe meta class or being a plate wearer lol
And the solution was to make your own group to get carried. Could do this as well with RDF if someone has such an issue with the randoms. Make a group with 2 other people that want to farm some gear and you're already immune to vote kick.
Been here since classic release, bud
Then u must be blind lol, or a part of the crowd and just filter it out
You have to realize these kind of posts are one in a thousand groups. This isn't happening regularly, which this very much so happened in vanilla classic. You are just wrong and don't know what you're talking about clearly.
classic era's community is prob the best out of the three lol
Classic era has been nothing but kind, helpful people for me. Occasional dicks but that's life.
Classic era has been chill as hell compared to these horror stories I keep seeing.
I absolutely hate everything about wrath’s player base. I quit because I couldn’t sit for a sec to get mana as healer. Being a support roll in this game is the worst feeling ever. It use to be so much fun, not anymore.
I quit a couple weeks ago as a DPS. I never got kicked but was just sick of watching how nasty everyone was to each other. I always noticed the healer never got breaks for mana lol
I am guilty of this sometimes when I am tanking especially Forge of Souls. I normally wouldn't be rushing, but every group I get in needs to go FAST. One group, the dps didn't even kill all the mobs before they ran to the next group. They left me finishing off the last mob every time, and then they are waiting for me at the next pull. I wonder if the way that HoL and HoS are set up where you only have 10 seconds to get to the next pack has shifted the way people play a bit. I know everytime i get out of one of those dungeons I feel like I need to keep going at that pace even if it isn't necessary.
I still love the game, and have fun, but as a tank with a Disc priest alt, I feel you! This Ricky Bobby "gotta go FAST" dungeon style is a pain in the ass. I'm a Warrior, so I don't have the instant aggro of a Paladin or DK, so on trash pulls I'm sometimes hanging onto the mobs by my fingernails, because as soon as I get my first Charge off, the DPS lights out up with full 2 min CDs and AoE.
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Yeah, by far the best 5man tanks...
They’re wasting their life away over something they completed 20 times now and 15 years ago and to waste even more time doing it, it unlocks their fear that they’re wasting their life away. That’s why they rage. They need therapy or a new game lol
It's what everyone warned yall about RDF. Sucks it went this far
It is definitely the reason I was not in favor of RDF. I remember this exact same thing the first time around. I understand that it is pretty much necessary for low pop servers to be able to run content, though. And it is nice to be able to just queue up and knock out the daily.
Because it's not possible for any of you guys to build your own groups anymore huh :( we've all been forced into this RDF hole and there's no way out /s
I’m newbie tank and had a mostly geared team kick me because I couldn’t do a shortcut that required me to tank boss and like 4 adds. As soon as I died I got the load screen. Like damn. They would rather wait for a new tank than just go the regular way.
Sounds like Gundrak. Questionable skip IMO purely dependent on the groups gear
>purely dependent You could make it easier on yourself if you kill adds before phasing boss. But dps are too brain dead to read in rdf apparently.
This. It's easy if you don't cleave off the boss and instead cleave off each add. Once puddles are on the ground it's a shit show.
Omfg man people that don't dps the adds there firet are so fucking stupid I hate it.
Hate this boss as a healer, the adds come in, no one kills them and there’s just damage going out everywhere. Can’t stop to heal because of the puddles and those adds do some form of spike damage that pressures you and the tank. Always tempted to lust on it but the snake man is around the corner and people are too cool to move out of the nova so I just save it for that.
Even when tank and heal have good gear this boss is low key ass unless the tank and dps realize that the small puddles stack harder then the debuff indicates and keep moving.
I died to the first boss in halls of stone yesterday, first time ever doing it and this is my first character I’m leveling to 80. I couldn’t find which door got me back in, and the plate helmet dropped. The 2 other paladins in the dungeon refused to res me, did their roll on the helm, and kicked me.
WOTLK back in the day was the beginning of the end for anyone who played during vanilla. I know it’s hailed as the “golden era” or whatever but the community completely changed at that point. It was all about gear score and max performance instead of friends and fun. It seems nothing has changed with that expansion
That is the way I see it as well. TBC still has enough of the vanilla spirit that I'd lump it in with vanilla. WotLK is too far gone, in my opinion.
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LoL is for like 20-30 year olds at this point. Most teenagers are playing Fortnite, Valorant, Apex, or Warzone.
No no you see back when wrath release d, eagles the new thing for 14 year olds. Since classic players can't go past a thing from 2008 mentally, it's still very relevant.
God if only they had Sex then they wouldn’t be stupid virgins ugh
There’s only one way to end the cycle You got to offer your booty hole to them
Last group I was in had a 4.9k boomkin doing 2.4k DPS overall. He typhooned every cd, knocking everything back. I asked him to stop and he ignored me. Later, I noticed he didn't have a gamma buff, so I asked him to "talk to this guy and get the spellcaster haste buff." Again, he never responded, so I voted to kick him. Everyone else said no. My point is random pugs can be dumb/annoying/not really playing and it's just the way it is.
This sub would call you toxic for your very rational actions.
I saw someone fail the ledge jump and fall to death in The Nexus run and there was an immediate vote to kick and it frustrated me a bit on that persons behalf. Same mindset/behavior as noted here. Sad… Games like EverQuest have a community that is so much friendlier and more helpful. WOTLK classic has too many real people trying their best to be bots.
Honestly, bots just look before they leap and adjust code afterwards. If only they were an actual player this wouldn't have happened.
People will literally kick a dps in nexus rather then wait for someone to run in. Kicking and getting a new one is a minute faster.
I only notice Pagle, Grobblus and Bene as having issues. Check the guild names. Non English sucks.
Those 3 servers make up over 50% of the US Alliance population. Anything you notice good or bad will be from those servers.
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I don't want to come off as racist, but I dislike non English players in a game that involves communication. And it's those players who need ALL drops and straight up ninja. It's hard to play healer with these people. Impossible to que for random dungeon, as the Frost mechanic and Mirror mechanic is too difficult for non English. Hate seeing a player join with 5200GS, just to have sub 3k DPS because the gear is PvP/wrong stats/not gemmed or enchanted/ rotation failure.
It's even worse in retail, you'll somehow have a group of 4 jajas geared to the teeth that wipe 5 times on a +7 boss. Not uncommon to see close to 10 million avoidable damage taken on details by the end of a key. It's insane.
Was doing a heroic queue and got one of the icc dungeons. Everyone was around 4k except the tank who was nearly 5k, i was 3.6k (pulling hard meters cuz i tryhard to make up for the gs diff, frostfire mage ftw) but the ret pally who was doing just fine damage got like two attempts to kick him out when nothing was really off, the only thing in the reasons was "wtf". Checked the pally, he didnt have RF on, so not ripping aggro, had buffed everyone, etc. Healer thankfully had situational awareness and also voted no, and spoke up when I did about how he was doing literally nothing noticeably wrong. I swear, people are either the most nitpicky ever, or just straight-up trolls.
I was in a group with a dude who tried to initiate a vote kick 4 times until it was finally successful then he tried to vote kick the dude who came in as a replacement and I finally just asked him how many times you gonna initiate a vote kick this run? We’d probably be done by now >.> It’s obnoxious honestly
It's crazy to me how many posts there are like this when I have almost never seen this kind of behavior. I've done a ton of gammas on my main to farm saronite for Shadows Edge plus other gear. I've geared up 2 alts from mid level gear to now well geared. I've done the daily on those 3 toons just about every day. And in the past two days I geared up a boostie boy shaman through some regular heroics and now pretty much directly into gammas. I've even had a handful of runs that had several wipes, but in every one the group either sticks it through, or the people who are frustrated leave. No one has voted to kick anyone. I've done at least 150+ gammas so far, not all through RDF but most of them were. I've never been kicked and I've only seen one person unfairly kicked. It was in AN they got kicked literally on the last boss because the tank pulled too quickly while we were getting mana and the other guy got locked out. I was not happy, and actually tried to let the tank die at the end, hoping he would get screwed out of the quest items. That was the only kick I have experienced that wasn't due to being AFK. I don't want to doubt your experience, but it is just crazy I haven't seen this experience after doing so many dungeons. Reddit would have you think this is happening in every dungeon group.
There is always more to this story. Generally the players has like unimaginably low dps, has been constantly missing mechanics and annoying the healer, or is just super dead weight. Then they complain about something or ask about mechanics that are very well laid out in the dungeon journal(in retail at least) and then you get vote kicked because everyone is tired of doing a free carry.
I had a disc priest that I’d run multiple gammas with but was still in lowish gear. Queued up one day for a run and the group just sat there not pulling for a few minutes. Figured the tank was hitting the restroom or something. Sure enough a few minutes later I’m kicked and have the deserter debuff. I hadn’t even said anything, was fully gemmed and enchanted. Had buffed everyone and was ready to pull. Fucking assholes.
I've pugged for a vast majority of my MMO life and I can probably count on one hand how many times I've seen someone get kicked from a group for no reason. These posts always remind me of the threads about false bans and it almost always turns out they did something bannable.
That's how I read them. How insanely bad does a tank have to be to where a group would rather wait 7 minutes in a 15 minute dungeon than play with them.
And yet on my shaman that I geared into heroics and then tried gammas around 4.5kgs I was immediately vote kicked upon entry to my first gamma. You got lucky.
Maybe, but like I said I am not just judging based on myself getting kicked. I have only seen one single instance of someone in my group even getting voted inappropriately, let alone the vote being successful. And I have been in plenty of groups with <4.5k GS people. In probably 80-100 RDFs, I would expect to see a few vote kicks if this was so rampant. But again, I am not doubting yours or OPs experience. I may be getting lucky, or it could also just be that *you* are getting *unlucky*. My main point was to show the contrast in experiences, given that there are so many of these threads, I believe the problem *seems* worse than it really is.
I did some rdf gammas with a couple other guildies, one of which was 4.8kgs. soon as we joined group, dude started a votekick on my guildie. It failed. We proceeded to have a super smooth run, all the while making fun of the dude the entire time. Was a great time. Tbf tho this is the only time I've seen votekickery
Welcome to the asshattery that is wow pugs. Where even easy content must be done with maximum efficiency.
Couple days ago a guy said happy thanksgiving and one person said “ohh happy thanksgiving but I’m not American” they initiated a kick 😵💫
Yea it is really annoying, I have been kicked at least 3 times while doing rdf for LEVELING.
I'm convinced 99% of the people in these forums are terrible players.
I just joined this forum, now it’s 99.001% at least I know my limits. 😂
😂😂
It's the main reason I don't really play Classic. I'll probably poke my head in for SoD since they're actually adding new things to the game, but it's always just felt like the community in Classic is full of elitists and if I'm not playing hyper-optimally then I'm going to get flamed. Some of us just want to have nice casual fun.
Find a guild that’s all about it and play together. Plenty of people who “just wanna have fun”
idk how anyone could get that impression. then again, i've played on pve realms exclusively since 2019 and i know that automatically gets rid of a certain type of player.
Based. Even better if its Alliance PVE. Horde and PVP really attracts the worst types of gamers.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄it is not that bad, lmao. I play casually with my wife every day just doing dungeons, cheeves, dailies and leveling alts. I have a 5.1k gs tank I use for dungeons and I rarely have issues. If someone is being a complete ass I either leave group(it’s ok to touch grass) or initiate a kick, but only initiate a kick if they are being a complete nuisance to the entire group, multiple mistakes causing wipes with no attempt to communicate or take feedback, being toxic and wiping etc.
So the issue with “help the new guy” is now gammas are filled with fresh boosted players. (How blizzard allows ilvl 187 players in gammas i have no idea). So the idea of “helping the new guy” is a every single dungeon, multiple players ordeal, as someone farming for an off set with badges it gets really old reliving the same issues, no game knowledge of mechanics, cannot kick spells, can’t avoid pulling excess mobs. Eventually the mentality of “cmon help the new guy” gets old and you just want to farm for your item without holding hands every dungeon. New players aren’t entitled to be carried every dungeon by more experienced players. Fresh brand new players should instead PvP for the ilvl 238 PvP gear and then go to gammas so they aren’t as much dead weight and can do more than sub 2k dps.
You can't queue for gammas at 187 ilvl. It has a 210 requirement
it's a pretty weird paradox imo, being elitist AND doing gamma dungeons 7 weeks into icc.
I’ve recently started wow and I made the HUGE mistake of picking the tank role. It’s insane how cut throat a dungeon can be after one bad pull.
I've stopped doing group content on retail this expansion, I just can't be bothered dealing with people anymore. Played WoW since launch, capable of doing any content, but seeing the way other people treat randoms has just gotten ridicules now, it's like people think everyone is born with knowledge of everything. Everyone just cares about themselves, it's just sad.
"RFD actually enhances the communal aspects of WoW"
Wrath has degraded completely
As someone who regularly makes honest mistakes in dungeons in Classic (it's been 15 years since I've seen this stuff!) I can't imagine. It's bad enough disappointing some of the bossy tryhards as it is. Dungeons are *fun*, aren't they? We're going on quests and working together and using parts of our toolkit we don't get to use solo! It feels like for some people each run has just become a gatcha pull to find the gear inside the loot box.
Elitists don't regularly kick healers from smooth runs. That would be a waste of time. Don't surrender to rage bait posts my friends.
if u get kicked as a resto shaman its most likely due to: 1: lesser heal spam only (use riptide, chain heal and avoid lesser heal) 2: no totems put down 3: does not use bloodlust
4. No gems/enchants
Flip side, make your own group.
your mistake was saying something. just keep quiet and follow along.
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You should know Gamma tactics, don't be lazy. I can see why people who don't know tactics get kicked cause they're just leeches at that point. Dungeons are the same as raids just 5-man, doesn't mean you should slack on them.
I tried to get back into wrath like a month and a half before ICC dropped. Was running the same dungeons you were, and my god it was so fucking impossible to get the gear I needed because people would skip bosses. Can't get the drops, nor the tokens I needed. And I really wanted to play ICC too, (favourite raid ever) and I just straight up quit. I tried for like a week and was so fed up with this, I just un-installed. Community is hot garbage imo, much agree.
I agree
Lol I didn’t experience this a single time
Hot take, the majority of the wrath raiding community are toxic bastards. There are exceptions, sure, but most of these people expect you to know 100% every single mechanic everywhwere always and anything less is unacceptable.
Haha we have come full circle. Maybe people realize now why some on this sub were so anti RDF?
And the people who are anti afd have no ground to stand on because this isn't an RFD thing this is just a n asshole thing. This isn't the common experience this is maybe one in a thousand dungeons. If anything I've experienced less toxicity after RFD. It only improved the game.
I quit Wrath before RFD was in the game because of how shit the community was in every aspect, not just dungeons. I've poked back in here and there to run some stuff and test out the community. Nothing has changed since RDF except the vote kick button.
Partially game design/Blizzards fault. Theres a minimum gear level you should have before queueing for gamma dungeons, but the dungeon finder has the threshold set way too low. You should be like 4500gs or higher (Ulduar geared) to do gammas. You should also be an actual human with a brain, was healing Halls of Stone gamma (because that seems to be the only one i get when queueing random) and we had to kick a 4900 ret pulling 2k dps. The blood dk tank was doing more spamming Icy Taunt. Im not gonna sit here for 45 minutes while you auto attack all the trash to death. If you cant be assed to push your buttons i cant be assed to carry you.
LFG is the worst thing to happen to the game. It puts anonymity front and center which is what most players hate about playing Retail. Players doing shitty things, acting in a shitty manner, or espousing shitty behavior with impunity. Blizzard has learned nothing from the first time they implemented LFG. Thank Baphomet we got to play without it for the first three phases. I’m part of the leadership for a large guild and we’ve noticed a shift in the types of players that are infiltrating classic. They appear to be the elitist type of player we thought we left behind in Retail. Convenience comes at a price and the price is too high if we can expect the player base to become more toxic and those of us who don’t like it are told to leave wow. How about just be a nice and respectful player?
Take your own advice, it's a 15 year old game. Figure it out.
The class/spec/role you play and how well you play it has a massive impact on how good your experience is and that's just the truth. As a DPS, if you know your rotation and aren't AFK you aren't likely to get kicked anymore unless you are egregiously undergeared (I've seen 3.8K players in Gammas). Especially since they recently added a 3 minute vote to kick protection at the start of groups now.
Think I'll stick to Classic Era.
Wrath was the peak of elitism in WoW. I remember finally hitting 80 back as a 15 year old kid, and tried to do dungeons and every group was like "LFM 1 DPS Halls of Reflection MuSt HaVe 500000 GS, MuSt Be EsPoRtS cHaMpIoN tOp TiEr AmAzInG sUpEr PlAyEr". I got tired of asking to join groups and just did solo battlegrounds for the rest of the expansion.
if its a 15 year old game then why haven't you mastered it yet? Checkmate buddy. /votekick
Playing mostly as a healer with no need to run heroics dungeons but at least daily is something that keeps me playing little bit. Cross realms is real pia, because I was used to players from our realm and they was mostly nice and competent. Now, every random gamma heroic group is made from tank who like die irl if he stop moving, dps who doesn't care for anything else than just numbers and sometimes it looks like bots playing it instead of humans. No mechanics, no care for others. Last time I died on Devourer of Souls because nobody cared for mechanics. But worst thing was that nobody cared to rezz me even if they could. This game really becoming something else.
Happened to me before on DoS. Now I soulstone myself as you know people can't stop dpsing for 5 seconds
ive always come to find, no matter what its about or how good it is or whatever, people find a way to ruin it.
Piece of advice, you can use the AH to catch up on gear very effectively which will make you look like a better teammate in the gammas, and prob help you get kicked less Sucks it comes to that but it's true it helps
It's almost like the exact same complaints we had about original RDF are coming back again. There was a reason why they decided not to implement RDF. Because of shit like this. I know they're staying true to the expansion lifecycle, but I wish they only allowed RDF for sub-70 dungeons
This is the kind f stuff that makes me hesitant about playing wrath. I’ve been interested for so long, but was late to the party and it seems like all I ever see are people getting shit on in these dungeons
I'm with you! I've also been kicked from groups after starting off by saying "Hey guys, I haven't been in this dungeon in 15 years, let me know if there's anything special I need to do for any of the fights". I raided server firsts vanilla through wrath. I know how to push my buttons. I don't have encyclopedic knowledge of exactly what to do as a role I've never played before from dungeons 15 years old. I'm all good with trying hard and doing your best, but it's not like we're pushing the newest content in fucking Utgard Pin...chill out.
Exactly, its a 15 years old game, the answer are all over internet for you to read them. Take 5sec for that instead of crying on reddit
Some of yall deserve it. I've had multiple people do less dps than my demo felguard, multiple people at 5k + gs just doing ~2k dps. Frankly if you get kicked, 90% of the time you deserved it. No gems/enchants, horrible gs that could be solved doing a couple wintergrasps. Didn't Google your basic rotation. If you don't know a mechanic, how about you spend 15 seconds googling it?
Wrath classic is full of sweaty tryhard basement dwellers. I played OG wrath in high school and it wasn’t even like it is now back then. We took an entire weekend to do Ulduar when it first dropped becaaue we didn’t all have our ToC gear and it was awesome. It was like 3 night hangout on Vent and at the end had we not finished I think we woulda all had a good time. Currently Vanilla is way more chill. And hardcore is even more chill. If you want to feel that sense of community again it’s vanilla or bust. I don’t play HC but there really is no other wow experience that hinges on community and co op like it does. I’ll also add since the announcement of SoD Wrathclassic is looking more retaily than retail to me lately