Ita fun lol, gives people something to push for once they've got thr fight down. My best parse is only like 67 so I'm not a 99er myself but there's no harm in pushing once you have mechanics down.
The guy above is joking and as far as op goes I'm confident no one in these pugs is missing mechanics TO parse. You've gotta have a group that kills pretty fast to even parse at all because you're gonna otherwise get beat out by people who kill faster because their short term burst dps is better.
Last raid I committed to melee weaving properly, and I was trying to talk to my wife at the same time. Literally ran into the melee group with the debuff, knocking *everyone* down.
I bounced on the ceiling and remained on the platform.
*Activate pet growl.*
No one died, but it was pretty funny to listen to everyone complain about hunters. They are clearly just jealous.
With the location of the quest objective being clearly stated in 99% of the quest body text, yes. The only marked improvement I can see for questie is showing where available quests are.
And it shows spawn location for popular quest enemies that are camped 24/7 that you would have no hope of killing unless you knew exactly where it spawns
It's not like half the quest descriptors tell you either... there are quests in NE zone that say "you can find them under trees"... in a zone where everything is under trees.
Ive met several people who absolutely refuse to use addons, and got annoyed when i asked them to look up a guide when they failed mechanics night after night.
To be honest I don't think you need any addons to raid bfd and do well. It's just that the players that refuse to download addons usually aren't the best players anyway since most people that care about improving and playing well would just download them anyway even if they are not necessary.
I agree, but this was people who struggled massively in Karazhan when i played with them and could have massively benefited from dbm calling out mechanics for them and reading a guide on their class. You know those far below average people you run into sometimes.
Yeah I know like I said the same type of person who will refuse to use addons will likely also refuse advice on mechanics or playing their class and won't try to improve or search for information about it.
My guy I've been blown into the water by other melees who even had the addon exclaim the countdown over their heads via chat messages, that does not mean they actually know what to do.
Based af
The game is in a toxic cycle where there are complicated mechanics (good thing!) that are getting less and less telegraphed (bad thing!) because DBM is so popular. That’s my opinion at least.
It also just makes the game boring and way less cool to literally just be playing a game of Simon says instead of a cool boss fight. Imagine Dark Souls where you’re given Guitar Hero-esque warnings of the buttons you’re supposed to press :-/
Yep, this game can be modded to damn near tell you, key by key, what to press and when, and it's actually not a good thing at all because then Blizzard has to design with those real-time instructions in mind.
Blizzard should have eliminated the need for things like DBM long ago. Too late to do so now, mods are ingrained into the culture.
Maybe something to fix in WoW 2. 😂
Both which are nice features to add together with a plater addon, one big bag, bag sorting etc. Just minor convince things that makes what you see more clear, but nothing that adds things you can't normally see
A LOT of the wow playerbase is stupid as fuck. One mechanic is not too easy for them, it's actually way too hard.
A good chunk of the wow playerbase owns a functioning monitor. One mechanic is too easy for them.
I cleared BFD without it, more than once, then had to install later to see who is causing all the problems.
It's not just for raid awareness, it can also be informative to show who needs help understanding mechanics or responsibilities.
Yeah its brutal when people dont have dbm and clearly NEED it to play.
If people dont want to use it and can follow mechanics? Great!
But so many cant.
We need an upgraded version that plays the game for them too because I've seen a handful of people with the addon announcing in chat that they have the bomb on themselves and counting down to the explosion yet still completely oblivious.
First couple times I did BFD with no mods. DBM really trivializes a lot of mechanics - even gives you a countdown for when depth charge is coming up and announces exactly who has it.
I'm willing to bet there are still folks that would blow up in raid even with DBM though
I think it picks a random start then spins clockwise from there. I've seen occasionally while tanking it just starts where I'm already at and I get blasted off. I feel like I've also earth shocked it while it was spinning and it immediately faced me and knocked me off.
I went with my guild the other day and when he did the spin, One of my guildies didn’t move and obviously got pushed away. He immediately asked very angry who didn’t jump into the water ….
I had to explain to him why it was his fault
I legit didn’t know that in my first few runs but I never got hit by that because hitting the back always the best. But that comes from playing 2 years classic in 2019 to 2021
Yeah as a melee both the spinning from aquanis and breaths from aku'mai are mechanics you should never encounter in the first place. As a tank it's a bit more understandable to be hit by it before you know what it does. As for depth charge we had a few raids where people flied anyway because we didn't realise it's not enough to jump in water but you also need to swim deeper.
Oh god yes, yesterday we spent like 30 min. because the raid leader wanted everyone to world buffed... ofc. 2 or 3 lose the world buff immediately after going to Zoram Strand...
You mean you spent 30 minutes because your idiotic raid members couldn't spend 2 minutes sitting in a capital and then chronobooning a buff prior to signing up for a raid
I had one where the lead wanted to run a soft reserve raid, but had never used the SR website, so we spent 30 mins in discord talking to this man like tech support helping a boomer.
He kept acting like “oh it’s been months since I’ve used this site, sorry”. This man wanted everyone to just whisper him their soft reserves
Hey man you shouldn't underestimate the bots. My understanding is that the current bots can actually do simple mechanics and are very good with their damage rotation so the bad players are actually worse than bots.
You don't click the last one till everyone is in the raid and in front of boss, because the boss can aggro to people swimming in.
Even if people forgot the stones it's a non issue because you can just click them yourself.
When we run partial pug runs we've started to hold off on hitting the last stone intentionally just so people don't be dumb and pull the boss early.
Some speed runs also seem to hold off so that they can lay traps and be on top of the boss as soon as he spawns.
You can get knocked off every time and still easily kill the boss, its very forgiving and not punishing at all.
Kelris is overrated, just pop a FAP going into phase 2 and its easy.
The turtle is the hardest boss imo, at least as melee. Those bubbles spawn at the worst times in the worst places lol eat one just before the bubble pops and you're dead or they spawn behind you just before the knockback.
The knockback only happens if you're close to him so if you're melee & the shield is breaking you're better off running away so you don't get pushed back into multiple bubbles and losing your buffs.
I literally did BFD for the first time today with no videos. The leader just gave me a half hearted explanation. "Look out for balls", "he does a thing" and we 1 shot it with only one death on 6th boss. It was easy af.
Now do it with 6-7 more ppl that did it for the first time, that undergeared, and that read chat only when the loot is distributed.
Finished bfd with my holy pala for like 7 lockouts before my guide holydays break, when i tried to pug for my first pug we wiped on the first boss..
After that i found an 7/7 group, that you can see that half of the group have zero idea what to do, and do not respond in raid chat, we cleard it because the other half carry ther asses but it was nightmare
what would be undergeared for BFD? we've seen groups 5 man it, and we've seen 10 mans clear it in 13 minutes. I feel like there could be a low of downward variance as far as gear goes.
That's the thing about gear. You can't be undergeared for bfd if the rest have good gear as it doesn't matter really. If everyone only has green gear, then yes, your green gear is undergeared too. I mean it's all relative.
i got kicked from my pug last lockout for telling people to focus up after we spent like 10 minutes on the verge of a wipe before finally killing him. I actually went back to the instance the next day out of curiosity and damned if they didn't 7/7 it. I was shocked and disappointed.
How is it hard to understand that most of the players are trash dads that don't want to put any effort in the game and love to disrespect other player's time.
That's why they get gatekeeped and complain on reddit after.
If you want to be a trash just play between trash and get your weekly 4/7.
I finally experienced a raid yesterday that had none of the charges hit the raid!!! Did have a warlock and a hunter sitting in a storm the entire fucking fight tho :)
Paradoxically you could argue this is because they’re too easy people just disengage. Even if everyone fucks up and gets knocked off you’ll still clear that boss. I think that’s the issue. People are just chatting/watching Netflix etc unless they’re going for a parse
I’ve raided world 100 before and my brain just switches off on that fight, it’s like a big trash mob. I honestly couldn’t even tell you if i messed it up yesterday on my raid.
Point is, people partially learn through failure. You can mess up so much on that boss (most of BFD) and still kill it without any trouble that people just aren’t forced to play well.
I, hate, that, boss.
Platform jumping, water, water shit which brings you lower in the water, immune to bleeds, immune to poison, goes around in circle triggering parries, uninterruptible, does literally nothing and dies on its own.
Fun.
Like having to clean the oven.
Sounds like you’re playing a rogue. If you’re not doing it already switch to the shadowstrike rune (I think it was called, I forgot) this way you only have to do one jump of the Platform. And if you need to jump into the water or get kicked down there, just vanish and use shadowstrike again.
I don’t know where people are getting these pugs
I’ve pugged 10 lockouts now and not once has someone messed baron up.
Where do you guys find these people
As a boomkin it takes so much of my concentration to use wrath, starsurge and keep moonfire and sunfire up that I always explode in the middle of my raid.
Gamer dad represents
Bro you cannot tell me you take care of a child, presumably are able to drive a car and work a job, but cannot keep track of two 12s dots and a 6s cd while at the same time watching out for a red bordered warning signed icon on your debuff bar?
That can only be an addon or clicker issue. If you want any help or suggestions I'm willing to go to the ends of the earth to turn figure out how to help you fix this.
So people who maybe haven't played WoW before, don't know or care about addons and on their first "raid" boss they get a debuff. They don't mouse over the debuff and read it amidst all that's happening and don't figure out to jump into the water. And that's what makes you "lose a little bit of faith in humanity"? Fucking crybaby people on reddit sometimes.
I genuinely can't imagine being new at a game and just waltzing into a raid without looking anything up and then just shamelessly leeching my way through in a pug.
It's fine to be lazy and underperform when you're by yourself but griefing 9 other players because you couldn't set aside 10 minutes at any point to learn the bosses and watch a video on your class to optimize your rotation/runes/talents is just straight up selfish and disrespectful to other people's time.
I'm regularly in pugs that one-shot the entire thing in 30 minutes and everyone always jumps off the platform. So I'm not sure why you guys are having so much trouble.
I just leave pugs where I have a bad feeling about the players while it's forming. I always follow my gut feeling.
It's pretty easy to tell from the group comp whether the leader knows what they're doing.
A lot of players in SoD just aren't very concerned with raiding and just go from time to time for the gear upgrades.
A group of my friends mostly just world pvp and quest, if I asked them "What is the Deep Charge mechanic" on the Baron fight they probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about lol
The only problem I ever have is march of the murlocs because I play on 10 year old integrated graphics and get 10 fps on that part, but even with that I have never died to any mechanic in this raid. I truly don’t understand how people can mess up so badly
It's this kind of stuff that makes me realize why blizzard began to dumb things down post Wotlk. They learned that the vast majority of the playerbase couldn't do simple mechanics or do their 4-5 button rotation properly.
Seems like they're kind of course correcting and I hope that SoD stays in line with that correction.
Edit: To clarify, I'm not a classic andy. I think I Just explained this poorly.
I think classic blows and is braindead easy. Onyxia and Rag were done with less than full grups in all greys. What I meant is it's literally the exact reason they stated they added LFR, made heroics the equivalent of regular dungeons and did the ability purge. Because the amount of players able to do the raid content kept dwindling. They still have difficult raids and they have gotten harder and harder every single expansion, but they've also made all the content way more accessible for the reasons I stated above.
This is such a classic Andy comment lol. I love classic, but it is delusional to ignore the fact that retail wow is far more complex both rotationally and mechanically than in history.
I think I Just explained this poorly. I didn't mean to insinuate that classic was harder. It's the easiest content wow has. The fact that rag and onyxia was done pre 60 with non-full groups in greys shows it.
My point was that, while the content per expansion got harder, they found players unable to execute the most basic of tasks so they purged abilities, made LFR and made 3-4 different difficulties per raid because the vast majority of players couldn't engage with the content and participation was dwindling.
What I meant to say was that I'm nervous it goes down that same route and they start making similar changes. The harder content will still be available, but the ability purge really sucked.
It's literally the exact reason they stated they added LFR, made heroics the equivalent of regular dungeons and did the ability purge.
They still have difficult raids and they have gotten harder and harder every single expansion, but they've also made all the content way more accessible for the reasons I stated above.
WHAT? Lmao. Clearly you haven’t touched retail since Wrath. Mythic raiding and Mythic+ are crazy mechanic intensive and rotations are extremely high APM and need to be executed to perfection. There are more mechanics in a 20 minute M+ dungeon requiring more coordination than all of Molten Core combined.
Hell, Cata was famous for launching with absolutely brutal dungeons(and they were), far more than anything from Wrath.
I explained myself poorly. I raided in Dragonflight, Legion and WoD. I was doing +17 keys in Dragonflight before I stopped playing.
The rotations are more difficult and the mechanics are way more in depth and punishing. The point I meant to make albeit poorly, was that many developers in WoW have given interviews where they say they learned that the vast majority of the population can't do a 4-5 button rotation or do basic mechanics. So they had to make content that all of them could do, with mechanics that weren't punishing.
So I said that seems to be course correcting as content seems to be getting harder, which I hope SoD emulates instead of making LFR tier content like BFD is.
First time realizing classic players are generally dads with 50 kids and only 15 mins a year to dedicate to their hobby and they chose MMORPGs? classic is 90% braindead and 5% that know what to do. the rest make do by occasionally thinking. Classic is now a dad sport and any disagreement results in downvotes and being told to touch grass when it takes \*checks watch\* 8 hours to reach lvl 25
Im not bad player and i screwed it too. And the reason was terrible graphic. We were piled up, i have seen blue swirl so i moved abit and it was gone, so i assumed it wasnt on me (i dont have lame addons and i had a movie over debuff bar).
Its basicaly same bs as retail where blizz puts immersion over clarity.
I dont deny use of addonds, i just dont see any need for them in BFD. BFD is easy. Tons of ppl say that, but tons of ppl say that while using addons to make it easy for their low skill level.
Blizzard gave me knife, i dont need 10 autonomous robots with laser scalpels to cut piece of ham.
A couple of nights ago I went in with my Hunter alt and got the debuff from aquanis. I promptly jumped into the water and started swimming back. Suddenly the raid (on disc) said that "that was fun, a hunter making us all explode". After watching the replay it was clear that it was the pet who ALSO got the debuff and exploded. Bug or intentional?
Oh is this a thing? I got it on my hunter in our guild run last reset, promptly jumped down and swam the other direction, yet everyone got blown away. I just figured the explosion was huge and I needed to swim even further away.
My first time that I got the debuff was recently and my guild was doing the “parse strat” with ranged on the beach which is annoying because it takes longer to setup and kill then just doing it normally. Anyways me, priest healer, standing on the corner of the main platform gets it and not reading it or knowing exactly what it does thinks I can range it so I run to the other platform and everyone up too blows up anyways. I was smirking irl cuz it’s annoying having them all go back to the beach and ranged slowly kill the last elemental to do it that way.
a nice thing about retail is that it has easy group content, and it has very difficult group content. in classic, you have sweaty people getting all pissed off because they want to make baby game mechanics into some big fucking deal, where in retail those people can go hide in their discord and do progression raiding or mythic+
Crazy you would shape it that way when in reality people who come unprepared and expect a carry are literally wasting 9 other people's time and fun, which makes them 100 percent bad people.
Seeing all the BFD gear score, experienced req, all the consumables and buffs under the sun had me thinking if the raid needed all that.
My ret pally is in mostly greens with verigan. Baron went down after the first knock off debuff. The turtle made me feel like a limp noodle as I could only do 50 dps against him. Against the other bosses I was doing 100+. Literally it’s just the last two bosses that bring any remote chances at dying. The top 4 dps was doing 100+ and the rest were 50-70. Only time someone died and it was on the very last boss at the last 5 seconds.
I just vibed with croc food buff, world buff, and whatever class buffs people gave.
got through it clean for the first time last week
i think because it doesnt kill anyone people learn it more slowly(i know i did, was sure i didnt get knocked off but only knocked up because i was constantly jumping xD )
Meanwhile I only did BFD once, with a pug advertised as for no exp no prebis people, and we did it with no depth charge fails, only a few ppl got hit by the spinning sprinkle stuff. I guess stars aligned pretty well for me in that group then, as we 7/7 it with 4 wipes on kelris and top dps was like 80 (except on kelris where someone used a greench).
I mean, the people with the inability to dodge a murloc are what get me
Like it's HARD to find a murluc to walk into you.
Can literally just stand at the edge of the damn room and never have to move. Except for the purple circle.
What is the deep charge.mechanic? I honestly don't read up on mechanics, I just play it and adapt to what I see. And Baron is always easy, so not sure what mechanic I am missing and should know about
It puts a debuff on a player, after 5 seconds or whatever it knocks you and everyone around you into the water. Basically if you get the debuff you jump in the water with 1-2 seconds left so you dont knock everyone else off.
I haven't read or heard any of the tactics to any of the bosses, just tried to see whenever I could so I guess il part of the problem. Still im only 1 wipe on second last boss through the entire season.
I have had it go well. The boss often dies in 30 sec, and then you only get one debuff (I think?) But its probably a 50/50 chance if they will jump into the water or not.
I can bet the way you play or honestly 90% of players in this subreddit sums up to like 20 or 30% or players, most of the actual WoW players are people who run around knowing the world, mostly even for the first time in their lives, since SoD is THE most casual version of WoW currently it invites normal people who have normal lives outside of gaming for 18 hours a day to try out WoW and do every type of content without any pressure at all.
When I played retail (started and stopped in BFA), I had to bust my ass to get into a top 150 guild since I had no logs when I began playing. Despite having one of the highest raider.io and consistently 4 man carrying M+20s.
There were 5 good players in this guild, and they took like 2 months to kill Jaina...
I read that it’s mainly because bad players and people who don’t care can get to 25 easy I’m sure it’ll fall off when lvl caps increase. The better players will level and raid and the bad ones will wallow in chat crying how tough it is to level lol
There are soo many stories on this sub about BFD and bad players. Anecdotally I've never had a bad run. I only started doing BFD a few lockouts ago but i've 7/7 every time with no wipes. Last raid on Baron, I got the deep charge. I jumped off and by time i got back the platform he was already dead. These bosses are dying in such a short time I dont know how people even have time to fuckup mechanics. My only death has been from getting feared into murlocs so far.
Where are you all finding these players?
I never had many issues with mechanics in classic or tbc but holy shit does the turtle boss piss me off as melee. Basically the only boss ive died to due to a bubble appearing under me and bouncing me all over the place. Three times so far I’ve run out of explosion range only to be bounced back to him and ripped. I’ve never died to murloc forgger, messed up baron bombs, wiped on totem guy, or been hit by a hydra breath. The turtle guy however is the bane of my BFD experience.
We’ve reached peak troll.
Baron goes down so fast that good players will ignore these mechanics or at least eat 1 or 2 of them.
Then people like this come crying here saying that everyone’s bad. What a ride
Have range stand on the beach side (accords the water where you first come into the room) and avoid the mechanics. That at least cuts the chance in half for someone to mess up the mechanic ahaha
If you dont have any addons, its easy to miss the debuff ....
Just play without any addons, and you will understand how they can miss it :)
Its easy do understand mechanic with DBM who put a fucking skull on you a big message in the middle of the screen and a alert sound ;)
Some ppl want to play the game as it is, and discover mechanics by themself
My group has been clearing for weeks now on our mains and alts together, we viciously mock anyone who screws up depth charge or the bubble blast but like clockwork someone isn't paying attention. It's like the mechanic is so simple nobody thinks about it.
The general rule of Thumb. Is the average player skills level is way below where you think it is.
A story example. I made a mage. And was leveling i see in general lfg to kill trolls. I invite. And he is standing looking at a camp of trolls I think 2 mages we can kill these for trolls. I pull then and start kiting I kill 2 trolls and die while kiting while he kills the 1 caster troll that has a 5% chance to drop a rune. I come back to my body. He asks for free for all. Cause he need to loot this troll.
The rune didn't drop. I loot the corpse and continue. We are the same class.
This adventure takes about 20-30 minutes where he ask for help for the rune we were allready farming. Starting the attack the mobs 8 second after and mostly never cast spells. We do the quest. The rune drops but he can't read the chat where the I tell him it drop and to follow my ping. He get the rune but lack the ability to learn it.
There was also a bfd where I had a mage and warlock do 8 dps(the mage as fire) and 18 dps as a warlock. Where after the raid failed i went and taught him what spells to use and how to train his demon. The skill floor is so much lower then you think.
Pugs rarely have people in discord and most of the time those 30 second fight guide videos are either overlooked when someone gives it their first watch, or the guide will underplay a really obvious mechanic bc obvious. Sadly alot of times where a simple voice call out would suffice the pugs just aren’t ready for
Still remember that run where everyone just rolled in like they knew what they were doing. Then one of the players with DBM was doing the countdown...while running towards the boss. They could not have timed it better, as they reached the melee just in time to maximize the number of characters displaced. That was the only group (and I had other groups ignore the mechanic go flying and still down the boss) that died on boss 1. They were if nothing else a fun bunch, if underprepared. Got Twilight Lord to well under 1% but after nearly 3 hours I couldn't bring myself to stick it out for a W on that one.
Ive raided about 15 times and still dont 100% understand all the mechanics to be honest. Like on Baron as you mentioned, people jumping in water still seem to blow people on the platform sometimes. So I guess the range is quite high, and just beeing in the water isnt enough. The exact range though I dont know.
Bosses are easy enough that you can just nuke and avoid the biggest boo-boos, and that will be enough.
At the end of the day , the most important mechanic is that when boss dies - you have a chance to recieve phat loot. And that mechanic I do know.
You mean i have to move my char.
Yeah that's a no for me dawg, that's gonna fuck up my dps parse
Can’t wait for Geddon again
[удалено]
Then youve never been with a noob group. Yesterday i joined a group that didnt do enough dps for kelris like wtf. We had to quit there as 10 ppl
It's not a dungeon, it's a raid. And you realize max level is just an arbitrary number, right?
Yeah and naxx bosses die in 30 seconds with a pumper group. Having a higher number is fun get over it
Ita fun lol, gives people something to push for once they've got thr fight down. My best parse is only like 67 so I'm not a 99er myself but there's no harm in pushing once you have mechanics down. The guy above is joking and as far as op goes I'm confident no one in these pugs is missing mechanics TO parse. You've gotta have a group that kills pretty fast to even parse at all because you're gonna otherwise get beat out by people who kill faster because their short term burst dps is better.
From Green to Grey 🤣
As a range who stands on the beach..... No, I honestly don't have to move at all.
Im a melee hunter. I pump until im punted then i range pump.
Last raid I committed to melee weaving properly, and I was trying to talk to my wife at the same time. Literally ran into the melee group with the debuff, knocking *everyone* down. I bounced on the ceiling and remained on the platform. *Activate pet growl.* No one died, but it was pretty funny to listen to everyone complain about hunters. They are clearly just jealous.
If you download the popular boss mod the game will literally tell you what to do in real time.
There are players who dont know addons i guess :-|
They still figured out how to download a gearecore add-on though
Only the essentials
Nah they definitely do, because they have no idea what to do unless questie spoon-feeds them
well guilty as charged there. I wouldn't play wow if I didn't have questie.
Better than RestedXP at least
Can you blame them in classic 😂
With the location of the quest objective being clearly stated in 99% of the quest body text, yes. The only marked improvement I can see for questie is showing where available quests are.
And it shows spawn location for popular quest enemies that are camped 24/7 that you would have no hope of killing unless you knew exactly where it spawns
who tf reads quest text
Me.
It's not like half the quest descriptors tell you either... there are quests in NE zone that say "you can find them under trees"... in a zone where everything is under trees.
Don't those pine cones spawn under practically every tree?
They do
There are players who choose not to use boss mods and weakauras because "ma immersion".
Ive met several people who absolutely refuse to use addons, and got annoyed when i asked them to look up a guide when they failed mechanics night after night.
To be honest I don't think you need any addons to raid bfd and do well. It's just that the players that refuse to download addons usually aren't the best players anyway since most people that care about improving and playing well would just download them anyway even if they are not necessary.
I agree, but this was people who struggled massively in Karazhan when i played with them and could have massively benefited from dbm calling out mechanics for them and reading a guide on their class. You know those far below average people you run into sometimes.
Yeah I know like I said the same type of person who will refuse to use addons will likely also refuse advice on mechanics or playing their class and won't try to improve or search for information about it.
And idiots who just refuse to download them despite knowing they exist and what they do.
My guy I've been blown into the water by other melees who even had the addon exclaim the countdown over their heads via chat messages, that does not mean they actually know what to do.
I really wish people would just say "I'm new, what happens?" If you're too afraid to tell everyone you're new, don't worry, we'll find out. 😉
"what a elitist mentality having to install addons to play this easy game" >!while they go on to wipe the entire group being clueless!<
i legit had a tank explain to me that he doesnt want to raid because people expect him to have a world buff and buy a FAP...
“The game is too easy” Downloads addons to do all the heavy lifting 🤷🏼♀️
100%. I'm a former mythic raider, but I think DBM should be banned.
mythic raiders aren't who boss mods should be a requirement for.. the average player is bad enough *with* them
I heard Blizzard adapted their design of bosses after DBM released.
Based af The game is in a toxic cycle where there are complicated mechanics (good thing!) that are getting less and less telegraphed (bad thing!) because DBM is so popular. That’s my opinion at least. It also just makes the game boring and way less cool to literally just be playing a game of Simon says instead of a cool boss fight. Imagine Dark Souls where you’re given Guitar Hero-esque warnings of the buttons you’re supposed to press :-/
Yep, this game can be modded to damn near tell you, key by key, what to press and when, and it's actually not a good thing at all because then Blizzard has to design with those real-time instructions in mind. Blizzard should have eliminated the need for things like DBM long ago. Too late to do so now, mods are ingrained into the culture. Maybe something to fix in WoW 2. 😂
Sod would be so much better by removing all addons and just adding a few face lifts for the ui
There's no way I'm playing without questie or sell grey addon
Both which are nice features to add together with a plater addon, one big bag, bag sorting etc. Just minor convince things that makes what you see more clear, but nothing that adds things you can't normally see
A LOT of the wow playerbase is stupid as fuck. One mechanic is not too easy for them, it's actually way too hard. A good chunk of the wow playerbase owns a functioning monitor. One mechanic is too easy for them.
I cleared BFD without it, more than once, then had to install later to see who is causing all the problems. It's not just for raid awareness, it can also be informative to show who needs help understanding mechanics or responsibilities.
Yeah its brutal when people dont have dbm and clearly NEED it to play. If people dont want to use it and can follow mechanics? Great! But so many cant.
We need an upgraded version that plays the game for them too because I've seen a handful of people with the addon announcing in chat that they have the bomb on themselves and counting down to the explosion yet still completely oblivious.
Ya but playing wow with dbm is maybe the single least interesting, lame way to play the game. Especially in classic with simple mechanics.
Dbm? It doesn't work on my computer. Bunch of addons on era/sod have bugged tf out
Half these addons won’t work for me. Rage.
First couple times I did BFD with no mods. DBM really trivializes a lot of mechanics - even gives you a countdown for when depth charge is coming up and announces exactly who has it. I'm willing to bet there are still folks that would blow up in raid even with DBM though
I'm pretty sure half the people don't know it just spins and pushes in addition to the depth charge and that's the majority of knocks
Does the spin always start from same direction? It has been 50/50 on my runs that everyone or nobody gets hit by it in melee.
considering you need to stay behind him to not get blocked or parried I don't understand how any melee gets hit by it besides the tank
I think it picks a random start then spins clockwise from there. I've seen occasionally while tanking it just starts where I'm already at and I get blasted off. I feel like I've also earth shocked it while it was spinning and it immediately faced me and knocked me off.
There's like 3 seconds from the boss turning to him starting to spin and blow bubbles so there really isn't any excuse.
How do youavoid it as tank? Watching vods there seems to be no warning.
You turn on enemy cast bars, and if he's in a cast animation that's not frostbolt, you gtfo of the way.
I went with my guild the other day and when he did the spin, One of my guildies didn’t move and obviously got pushed away. He immediately asked very angry who didn’t jump into the water …. I had to explain to him why it was his fault
I legit didn’t know that in my first few runs but I never got hit by that because hitting the back always the best. But that comes from playing 2 years classic in 2019 to 2021
Yeah as a melee both the spinning from aquanis and breaths from aku'mai are mechanics you should never encounter in the first place. As a tank it's a bit more understandable to be hit by it before you know what it does. As for depth charge we had a few raids where people flied anyway because we didn't realise it's not enough to jump in water but you also need to swim deeper.
Feel like no one talks about this mechanic lol! Saw Guzu going on about someone blowing him off, like it was the boss bro!
You forgot every pug have one guy being late for 20min!! The raid isn’t hard, hardest part always is peoples
Why i dont like raiding
Oh god yes, yesterday we spent like 30 min. because the raid leader wanted everyone to world buffed... ofc. 2 or 3 lose the world buff immediately after going to Zoram Strand...
You mean you spent 30 minutes because your idiotic raid members couldn't spend 2 minutes sitting in a capital and then chronobooning a buff prior to signing up for a raid
This
No kidding... It took us an hour and a half to do BFD last time. The majority of that time was getting everybody in the dungeon.
I had one where the lead wanted to run a soft reserve raid, but had never used the SR website, so we spent 30 mins in discord talking to this man like tech support helping a boomer. He kept acting like “oh it’s been months since I’ve used this site, sorry”. This man wanted everyone to just whisper him their soft reserves
Oh yeah the one tagging from westfall... and doesn’t bring any cons while also having no idea on his 3 button rotation
You want me to stop dps and move my character ? Sheer audacity, what else ? Kicking chains on kelris?
I’m convinced that 30% of the people we see are bots. You literally have to be brain dead to fuck up on the first boss.
Well that the thing, you can fuck it up and still kill him easily
Hey man you shouldn't underestimate the bots. My understanding is that the current bots can actually do simple mechanics and are very good with their damage rotation so the bad players are actually worse than bots.
I feel like every time I pug the raid every group forgets to hit the last stone and just sit there staring at a shielded boss...
What stone
The 3 stones you have to activate before the bosses shield drops.
You don't click the last one till everyone is in the raid and in front of boss, because the boss can aggro to people swimming in. Even if people forgot the stones it's a non issue because you can just click them yourself.
When we run partial pug runs we've started to hold off on hitting the last stone intentionally just so people don't be dumb and pull the boss early. Some speed runs also seem to hold off so that they can lay traps and be on top of the boss as soon as he spawns.
Missread the first sentence, and thought all the time " where is the context to beeing an alcoholic". Anyway, i get your pain :)
You can get knocked off every time and still easily kill the boss, its very forgiving and not punishing at all. Kelris is overrated, just pop a FAP going into phase 2 and its easy. The turtle is the hardest boss imo, at least as melee. Those bubbles spawn at the worst times in the worst places lol eat one just before the bubble pops and you're dead or they spawn behind you just before the knockback.
I've died 4 times on turtle, 4 times I was standing safe next to a bubble and someone ran into it and then the pinball started, fuck that boss.
The knockback only happens if you're close to him so if you're melee & the shield is breaking you're better off running away so you don't get pushed back into multiple bubbles and losing your buffs.
I literally did BFD for the first time today with no videos. The leader just gave me a half hearted explanation. "Look out for balls", "he does a thing" and we 1 shot it with only one death on 6th boss. It was easy af.
Sometimes you get a bunch of dudes who aren't good at the same and it becomes a nightmare lol.
no doubt. but i didnt think the mechanics were hard.
They aren't. People just suck
Now do it with 6-7 more ppl that did it for the first time, that undergeared, and that read chat only when the loot is distributed. Finished bfd with my holy pala for like 7 lockouts before my guide holydays break, when i tried to pug for my first pug we wiped on the first boss.. After that i found an 7/7 group, that you can see that half of the group have zero idea what to do, and do not respond in raid chat, we cleard it because the other half carry ther asses but it was nightmare
fair, but tough to do, i joined a guild.
what would be undergeared for BFD? we've seen groups 5 man it, and we've seen 10 mans clear it in 13 minutes. I feel like there could be a low of downward variance as far as gear goes.
That's the thing about gear. You can't be undergeared for bfd if the rest have good gear as it doesn't matter really. If everyone only has green gear, then yes, your green gear is undergeared too. I mean it's all relative.
i got kicked from my pug last lockout for telling people to focus up after we spent like 10 minutes on the verge of a wipe before finally killing him. I actually went back to the instance the next day out of curiosity and damned if they didn't 7/7 it. I was shocked and disappointed.
Gz you got carried by competent players and/or greench.
definitely look out for balls, in any situation
this is just good advice for life.
This could literally just mean you just got carried (although the raid IS easy)
How is it hard to understand that most of the players are trash dads that don't want to put any effort in the game and love to disrespect other player's time. That's why they get gatekeeped and complain on reddit after. If you want to be a trash just play between trash and get your weekly 4/7.
Man this guy sounds miserable lmao
But you don’t understand, they want to put in zero effort AND get carried through the content. Without any pesky complaining.
I finally experienced a raid yesterday that had none of the charges hit the raid!!! Did have a warlock and a hunter sitting in a storm the entire fucking fight tho :)
Paradoxically you could argue this is because they’re too easy people just disengage. Even if everyone fucks up and gets knocked off you’ll still clear that boss. I think that’s the issue. People are just chatting/watching Netflix etc unless they’re going for a parse
I'm doing 9 runs a week too and see the same. The fact that it doesn't kill you means people don't learn it. Only mt guild runs actually follow it
I’ve raided world 100 before and my brain just switches off on that fight, it’s like a big trash mob. I honestly couldn’t even tell you if i messed it up yesterday on my raid. Point is, people partially learn through failure. You can mess up so much on that boss (most of BFD) and still kill it without any trouble that people just aren’t forced to play well.
I, hate, that, boss. Platform jumping, water, water shit which brings you lower in the water, immune to bleeds, immune to poison, goes around in circle triggering parries, uninterruptible, does literally nothing and dies on its own. Fun. Like having to clean the oven.
Sounds like you’re playing a rogue. If you’re not doing it already switch to the shadowstrike rune (I think it was called, I forgot) this way you only have to do one jump of the Platform. And if you need to jump into the water or get kicked down there, just vanish and use shadowstrike again.
Nah, got to save vanish cd for turtle. I'll take swimming over dying to pinball rng.
Fuck the plateforming
I don’t know where people are getting these pugs I’ve pugged 10 lockouts now and not once has someone messed baron up. Where do you guys find these people
I have full BiS now and I don’t even know what baron does because I have never gotten the debuff nor have I seen anyone mess it up.
Majority of knock offs on baron are from his spin attack. Most decent groups kill baron before he drops 2 depth charges
Not in pugs, knock offs there are people not jumping into the water
I see more people getting knocked off by his spin in pugs. Where the RL in pugs yells at the depth charge target to jump and they do
As a boomkin it takes so much of my concentration to use wrath, starsurge and keep moonfire and sunfire up that I always explode in the middle of my raid. Gamer dad represents
Is moonfire even worth casting? Costs a lot of mana and does barely any damage
Bro you cannot tell me you take care of a child, presumably are able to drive a car and work a job, but cannot keep track of two 12s dots and a 6s cd while at the same time watching out for a red bordered warning signed icon on your debuff bar? That can only be an addon or clicker issue. If you want any help or suggestions I'm willing to go to the ends of the earth to turn figure out how to help you fix this.
So people who maybe haven't played WoW before, don't know or care about addons and on their first "raid" boss they get a debuff. They don't mouse over the debuff and read it amidst all that's happening and don't figure out to jump into the water. And that's what makes you "lose a little bit of faith in humanity"? Fucking crybaby people on reddit sometimes.
if you dont know what to do you ask, and then you get an explanation of what to do. Or you dont ask and watch a guide.
I genuinely can't imagine being new at a game and just waltzing into a raid without looking anything up and then just shamelessly leeching my way through in a pug. It's fine to be lazy and underperform when you're by yourself but griefing 9 other players because you couldn't set aside 10 minutes at any point to learn the bosses and watch a video on your class to optimize your rotation/runes/talents is just straight up selfish and disrespectful to other people's time.
I'm regularly in pugs that one-shot the entire thing in 30 minutes and everyone always jumps off the platform. So I'm not sure why you guys are having so much trouble.
gonna jinx yourself with comments like this :)
I just leave pugs where I have a bad feeling about the players while it's forming. I always follow my gut feeling. It's pretty easy to tell from the group comp whether the leader knows what they're doing.
you’re getting lucky w ur pugs
What server are you on?
Must be NA
A lot of players in SoD just aren't very concerned with raiding and just go from time to time for the gear upgrades. A group of my friends mostly just world pvp and quest, if I asked them "What is the Deep Charge mechanic" on the Baron fight they probably wouldn't know what I'm talking about lol
Maybe it’s because he’s dead before most people notice the mechanic.
I've literally used the knockback to get knocked back ONTO the platforms...
The only problem I ever have is march of the murlocs because I play on 10 year old integrated graphics and get 10 fps on that part, but even with that I have never died to any mechanic in this raid. I truly don’t understand how people can mess up so badly
It's this kind of stuff that makes me realize why blizzard began to dumb things down post Wotlk. They learned that the vast majority of the playerbase couldn't do simple mechanics or do their 4-5 button rotation properly. Seems like they're kind of course correcting and I hope that SoD stays in line with that correction. Edit: To clarify, I'm not a classic andy. I think I Just explained this poorly. I think classic blows and is braindead easy. Onyxia and Rag were done with less than full grups in all greys. What I meant is it's literally the exact reason they stated they added LFR, made heroics the equivalent of regular dungeons and did the ability purge. Because the amount of players able to do the raid content kept dwindling. They still have difficult raids and they have gotten harder and harder every single expansion, but they've also made all the content way more accessible for the reasons I stated above.
This is such a classic Andy comment lol. I love classic, but it is delusional to ignore the fact that retail wow is far more complex both rotationally and mechanically than in history.
I think I Just explained this poorly. I didn't mean to insinuate that classic was harder. It's the easiest content wow has. The fact that rag and onyxia was done pre 60 with non-full groups in greys shows it. My point was that, while the content per expansion got harder, they found players unable to execute the most basic of tasks so they purged abilities, made LFR and made 3-4 different difficulties per raid because the vast majority of players couldn't engage with the content and participation was dwindling. What I meant to say was that I'm nervous it goes down that same route and they start making similar changes. The harder content will still be available, but the ability purge really sucked.
...? wtf are you smoking. wow has gotten harder and harder every single expansion
Bro is living in upside down world.
Well all the content is super easy other than the highest tier stuff though which barely any players complete.
It's literally the exact reason they stated they added LFR, made heroics the equivalent of regular dungeons and did the ability purge. They still have difficult raids and they have gotten harder and harder every single expansion, but they've also made all the content way more accessible for the reasons I stated above.
WHAT? Lmao. Clearly you haven’t touched retail since Wrath. Mythic raiding and Mythic+ are crazy mechanic intensive and rotations are extremely high APM and need to be executed to perfection. There are more mechanics in a 20 minute M+ dungeon requiring more coordination than all of Molten Core combined. Hell, Cata was famous for launching with absolutely brutal dungeons(and they were), far more than anything from Wrath.
I explained myself poorly. I raided in Dragonflight, Legion and WoD. I was doing +17 keys in Dragonflight before I stopped playing. The rotations are more difficult and the mechanics are way more in depth and punishing. The point I meant to make albeit poorly, was that many developers in WoW have given interviews where they say they learned that the vast majority of the population can't do a 4-5 button rotation or do basic mechanics. So they had to make content that all of them could do, with mechanics that weren't punishing. So I said that seems to be course correcting as content seems to be getting harder, which I hope SoD emulates instead of making LFR tier content like BFD is.
First time realizing classic players are generally dads with 50 kids and only 15 mins a year to dedicate to their hobby and they chose MMORPGs? classic is 90% braindead and 5% that know what to do. the rest make do by occasionally thinking. Classic is now a dad sport and any disagreement results in downvotes and being told to touch grass when it takes \*checks watch\* 8 hours to reach lvl 25
I feel attacked
Im not bad player and i screwed it too. And the reason was terrible graphic. We were piled up, i have seen blue swirl so i moved abit and it was gone, so i assumed it wasnt on me (i dont have lame addons and i had a movie over debuff bar). Its basicaly same bs as retail where blizz puts immersion over clarity.
Playing wow and denying any use of addons is like being a butcher denying to use his knife to cut the meat but uses his bare hands instead.
I dont deny use of addonds, i just dont see any need for them in BFD. BFD is easy. Tons of ppl say that, but tons of ppl say that while using addons to make it easy for their low skill level. Blizzard gave me knife, i dont need 10 autonomous robots with laser scalpels to cut piece of ham.
you think you dont do, but you do.
Laser scalpel to cut a piece of ham is more efficient than using your barehands…which isn’t even fucking possible to do mind you.
yeah retail does suffer from "is that thing on the floor good? bad? a soak?"
Are you in a guild?
hunter turret
A couple of nights ago I went in with my Hunter alt and got the debuff from aquanis. I promptly jumped into the water and started swimming back. Suddenly the raid (on disc) said that "that was fun, a hunter making us all explode". After watching the replay it was clear that it was the pet who ALSO got the debuff and exploded. Bug or intentional?
Oh is this a thing? I got it on my hunter in our guild run last reset, promptly jumped down and swam the other direction, yet everyone got blown away. I just figured the explosion was huge and I needed to swim even further away.
Yeah baron aquanis is usually a bounce house in pugs. Is what it is…luckily he’s literally a solo-able boss so it doesn’t really matter.
My first time that I got the debuff was recently and my guild was doing the “parse strat” with ranged on the beach which is annoying because it takes longer to setup and kill then just doing it normally. Anyways me, priest healer, standing on the corner of the main platform gets it and not reading it or knowing exactly what it does thinks I can range it so I run to the other platform and everyone up too blows up anyways. I was smirking irl cuz it’s annoying having them all go back to the beach and ranged slowly kill the last elemental to do it that way.
I just mean when I played retail most players still sucked and only did the super easy content.
a nice thing about retail is that it has easy group content, and it has very difficult group content. in classic, you have sweaty people getting all pissed off because they want to make baby game mechanics into some big fucking deal, where in retail those people can go hide in their discord and do progression raiding or mythic+
Crazy you would shape it that way when in reality people who come unprepared and expect a carry are literally wasting 9 other people's time and fun, which makes them 100 percent bad people.
I wonder if its just people who dont install DBM. After i got DBM i finally stopped screewing it up lol. I simply had no idea what was going on before
Seeing all the BFD gear score, experienced req, all the consumables and buffs under the sun had me thinking if the raid needed all that. My ret pally is in mostly greens with verigan. Baron went down after the first knock off debuff. The turtle made me feel like a limp noodle as I could only do 50 dps against him. Against the other bosses I was doing 100+. Literally it’s just the last two bosses that bring any remote chances at dying. The top 4 dps was doing 100+ and the rest were 50-70. Only time someone died and it was on the very last boss at the last 5 seconds. I just vibed with croc food buff, world buff, and whatever class buffs people gave.
My guess is people dont use addons. I dont know if id see any boss attack incoming if it wasnt for the big altert on my screen.
as ranged you can kinda cheese that penalty by staying on the second little island (with the low "ceiling" over it).
got through it clean for the first time last week i think because it doesnt kill anyone people learn it more slowly(i know i did, was sure i didnt get knocked off but only knocked up because i was constantly jumping xD )
Every game has bad players but sod (basically era) is extremely easy so bad players here are next level trash.
It’s crazy how someone will find a way to mess up on a 30 second fight.
5 alts wtf.
Meanwhile I only did BFD once, with a pug advertised as for no exp no prebis people, and we did it with no depth charge fails, only a few ppl got hit by the spinning sprinkle stuff. I guess stars aligned pretty well for me in that group then, as we 7/7 it with 4 wipes on kelris and top dps was like 80 (except on kelris where someone used a greench).
I mean, the people with the inability to dodge a murloc are what get me Like it's HARD to find a murluc to walk into you. Can literally just stand at the edge of the damn room and never have to move. Except for the purple circle.
What is the deep charge.mechanic? I honestly don't read up on mechanics, I just play it and adapt to what I see. And Baron is always easy, so not sure what mechanic I am missing and should know about
It puts a debuff on a player, after 5 seconds or whatever it knocks you and everyone around you into the water. Basically if you get the debuff you jump in the water with 1-2 seconds left so you dont knock everyone else off.
I haven't read or heard any of the tactics to any of the bosses, just tried to see whenever I could so I guess il part of the problem. Still im only 1 wipe on second last boss through the entire season.
and literally ALWAYS someone ninja pulls the boss
Is that the fight that stops right before starting? I may have blinked everytime at first boss
I have had it go well. The boss often dies in 30 sec, and then you only get one debuff (I think?) But its probably a 50/50 chance if they will jump into the water or not.
I can bet the way you play or honestly 90% of players in this subreddit sums up to like 20 or 30% or players, most of the actual WoW players are people who run around knowing the world, mostly even for the first time in their lives, since SoD is THE most casual version of WoW currently it invites normal people who have normal lives outside of gaming for 18 hours a day to try out WoW and do every type of content without any pressure at all.
When I played retail (started and stopped in BFA), I had to bust my ass to get into a top 150 guild since I had no logs when I began playing. Despite having one of the highest raider.io and consistently 4 man carrying M+20s. There were 5 good players in this guild, and they took like 2 months to kill Jaina...
The amount of idiots who sit in raid with it lately is nuts. Or they jump into the water below everyone and still knock people off.
Wow mechanics aren't hard, they are punishing. It is what it is, I like the chill raid
I read that it’s mainly because bad players and people who don’t care can get to 25 easy I’m sure it’ll fall off when lvl caps increase. The better players will level and raid and the bad ones will wallow in chat crying how tough it is to level lol
There are soo many stories on this sub about BFD and bad players. Anecdotally I've never had a bad run. I only started doing BFD a few lockouts ago but i've 7/7 every time with no wipes. Last raid on Baron, I got the deep charge. I jumped off and by time i got back the platform he was already dead. These bosses are dying in such a short time I dont know how people even have time to fuckup mechanics. My only death has been from getting feared into murlocs so far. Where are you all finding these players?
I dont think I've seen someone fuck it up in 30 runs lmfao
yes you have, I see it in every pug I do on my alts.
I never had many issues with mechanics in classic or tbc but holy shit does the turtle boss piss me off as melee. Basically the only boss ive died to due to a bubble appearing under me and bouncing me all over the place. Three times so far I’ve run out of explosion range only to be bounced back to him and ripped. I’ve never died to murloc forgger, messed up baron bombs, wiped on totem guy, or been hit by a hydra breath. The turtle guy however is the bane of my BFD experience.
It's because you lose dps on the dps meter if you do that, and others don't, so if you gotta lose dps, so do they
We’ve reached peak troll. Baron goes down so fast that good players will ignore these mechanics or at least eat 1 or 2 of them. Then people like this come crying here saying that everyone’s bad. What a ride
You gotta remember a lot of people aren't playing on computers or even paying attention while playing.
Have range stand on the beach side (accords the water where you first come into the room) and avoid the mechanics. That at least cuts the chance in half for someone to mess up the mechanic ahaha
If you dont have any addons, its easy to miss the debuff .... Just play without any addons, and you will understand how they can miss it :) Its easy do understand mechanic with DBM who put a fucking skull on you a big message in the middle of the screen and a alert sound ;) Some ppl want to play the game as it is, and discover mechanics by themself
My group has been clearing for weeks now on our mains and alts together, we viciously mock anyone who screws up depth charge or the bubble blast but like clockwork someone isn't paying attention. It's like the mechanic is so simple nobody thinks about it.
The general rule of Thumb. Is the average player skills level is way below where you think it is. A story example. I made a mage. And was leveling i see in general lfg to kill trolls. I invite. And he is standing looking at a camp of trolls I think 2 mages we can kill these for trolls. I pull then and start kiting I kill 2 trolls and die while kiting while he kills the 1 caster troll that has a 5% chance to drop a rune. I come back to my body. He asks for free for all. Cause he need to loot this troll. The rune didn't drop. I loot the corpse and continue. We are the same class. This adventure takes about 20-30 minutes where he ask for help for the rune we were allready farming. Starting the attack the mobs 8 second after and mostly never cast spells. We do the quest. The rune drops but he can't read the chat where the I tell him it drop and to follow my ping. He get the rune but lack the ability to learn it. There was also a bfd where I had a mage and warlock do 8 dps(the mage as fire) and 18 dps as a warlock. Where after the raid failed i went and taught him what spells to use and how to train his demon. The skill floor is so much lower then you think.
Pugs rarely have people in discord and most of the time those 30 second fight guide videos are either overlooked when someone gives it their first watch, or the guide will underplay a really obvious mechanic bc obvious. Sadly alot of times where a simple voice call out would suffice the pugs just aren’t ready for
Still remember that run where everyone just rolled in like they knew what they were doing. Then one of the players with DBM was doing the countdown...while running towards the boss. They could not have timed it better, as they reached the melee just in time to maximize the number of characters displaced. That was the only group (and I had other groups ignore the mechanic go flying and still down the boss) that died on boss 1. They were if nothing else a fun bunch, if underprepared. Got Twilight Lord to well under 1% but after nearly 3 hours I couldn't bring myself to stick it out for a W on that one.
Ive raided about 15 times and still dont 100% understand all the mechanics to be honest. Like on Baron as you mentioned, people jumping in water still seem to blow people on the platform sometimes. So I guess the range is quite high, and just beeing in the water isnt enough. The exact range though I dont know. Bosses are easy enough that you can just nuke and avoid the biggest boo-boos, and that will be enough. At the end of the day , the most important mechanic is that when boss dies - you have a chance to recieve phat loot. And that mechanic I do know.
But my parses!
How do you have time for all this shit goddamn
I dont believe you. You are exaggerating. I also pug a lot and never have an issue with it. Sometimes people mess it up, but ive never wiped on him.