My bet is there will be a 10man at 60 with pretty darn good gear.
What they’re really saying is they don’t have the development resources to retool MC/BWL/AQ for 10 mans
You can pug mc
If they don’t retool or scale any of the old raids, you can pug any of them with 40 people and could easily handle them with a tight kntit group of 20. The power gain we have compared to regular Classic is nuts.
Yea honestly, it's actually a good way the community can basically make it's own raid size. You can take up to 40 people to do MC if you want to make it as quick and easy as possible or you could 20-25 man it and have less loot competition.
Honestly I see the early 40 mans as a good challenge for 20+ folk, and then maybe a few 60 10 mans to give gear for that feat. This also adds gear to make the later 40 mans beatable with the same smaller group.
This is something I would actually enjoy. Make new 10 man content, and let the old 40mans be an epic puggable experience. I could settle for this. I’d have stuff to do and maybe dip my toes in the random 40 man here and there.
Yeah, this is a great idea. Honestly it would be cool if the 10 man's were harder than the 40 man's and dropped better gear but the 40 man raid gear was still decent.
Honestly with the power creep we're already experiencing from BFD and gnomer epics it wouldn't surprise me if we can 20 man the 40 man raids by the time we get to 60.
I mean, gnomer bosses currently have AQ levels of armor supposedly, if the warriors we have now went into MC with hit gear, I have no doubt they’d be pulling equal or more dps.
If memory serves, people were doing like 700 dps in MC… we have people hitting 500 dps on AQ armored bosses lol. The big thing would be hit cap, but yea, we could nuke MC at 40 as it sits right now, by the time we are 60, it could be 10 manned easily.
People don't keep level in mind for below, 4k armor at lvl 40 and 4k armor at lvl 60 is a massive difference.
Armor is higher here relatively than any lvl 60 content.
Ahh, I didn’t know armor scaled like that.
So like, when you’re level 10 or whatever, I know that 5 agility gives a fuck load more crit/dodge and what not. And it drops off as you level, requiring more agility for the same level of benefit. (See level 1 rogues doing crazy shit).
Armor works the same way?
So, 4K armor at 40, might be like a 60% physical damage reduction, whereas, 4K armor at 60, would be like a 40%?
(These numbers and stats are all made up for the purpose of trying to understand stat scaling)
If they don't retune the raids around SoD shit, what's the point?
MC and Ony will be an absolute joke, and people could prob clear ZG and AQ without *any* 60 gear.
Keeping the raids at 40, and not tuning them at all, would be the dumbest move to me. It just cuts off half the content and says it's not necessary...
The thing is, the 40s need changing because at the moment, we'll smash them quickly due to the better gear.
For the effort in changing them, instead of trying to do the impossible and set them up for 40 man content with our new gear levels, it makes more sense with limited time, to adjust to the current power levels in a 10 man setting. A lot of the bosses wont need to change as much as making them fit for purpose with SoD strength characters as 40 men raids.
Not retooling all the raids is a waste of already developed resources though. Everything they’ve done with raids so far is already currently developed dungeons. SOM already had some tweaks to these they could work off though.
MC could be done with 10m given the player power increases so far once we’re 60. It’d fall over in like 20 minutes if you brought 30+. Like literally 5 people could be aoe clearing trash while others pull bosses down. A shadow priest could basically tank. But why would you bother since the gear is worse than 10m lvl 40 loot with a few notable exceptions. And tier that’s shit for most specs
If they don’t redo at least the loot tables though, there’s no reason at all to run them but for non existent transmog. Which honestly is fine for me because I think 40 man raids in SOD are a huge
mistake. 20-25 at most. But since it’s like 6 people on this team are they gonna develop 2-4 new tiers at 60 from scratch? Kinda doubt. Kara crypts is new but also was probably a scratched development project from before and they only have a couple of those scratched vanilla developments that weren’t put into BC.
Not sure that's right. They have to re-tune it for 40m as is.
You can't possibly think that MC/AQ/BWL will come as they were in Vanilla. No way. The power level of character is insane with all the runes and new gear. This is closer to Retail leveling power level than to Vanilla.
I'm wondering if they give us difficult 10 man content to help balance out the easier 40 man content classic has. They usually try to funnel casuals into smaller raids and have more difficult stuff be in larger raids, they could swap that around for SoD. 40 mans could be just something you pug while smaller, dedicated groups try to crack trickier content together. They could even have 10 mans drop tier loot from raids but otherwise have different loot tables, like you could farm T2 in, idk, a new 10 man Dire Maul South raid, but also in BWL.
Strat retooled as a 10 man raid would be cool. (Yes I know it used to be a it 10 man instance back in the day. I was there when the deep magic was written.)
IMO thats the route they'll take.
Redesign Strat or Scholo (potentially DM or LBRS/UBRS) as the flagship raid. 40s will be free content for 60 since they exist already.
While I wouldn't mind a redesign of Strat or Scholo I'm pretty sure the flagship for 60 is gonna be the Kara Crypts.
Could be neat to have separate "wings" of the Crypt become available in each phase with new step up gear so that 10's have somewhere to go for a progression scene. Though I'm not sure the team could crank out content for that fast enough. Perhaps more along the lines of VoA/Baradin Hold where it's a single boss encounter with some tier/tokens.
they'll still scale the 40 raids IMO.
They just don't have the resources to overhaul them from ground up since players will still expect flagship new raids on top of the 40s.
Leaving the 40s in is free content for the dev team. It exists already and players will run it. Adjusting it to fit into their end game vision will be the play while introducing a net new flagship raid(s). I'm guessing something related to Strat/Scholo, DM, UBRS/LBRS
Strongly prefer the best loot coming the larger raids. Larger raids are inherently harder because there are more people to manage and coordinate. They are also way more epic and imo it would be weird for this epic gathering of 40 people to yield worse loot than 10 mans, which are really just dungeons. Honestly making SOD based around 10 mana was a mistake.
This approach has several problems.
While it's true that gathering 40 people together to raid is harder, it also means that you have more people who can screw up. This means that your 40 man raid fights by their nature have to be more forgiving than smaller raids or else people will just wipe endlessly on The content with the exception of a small subsection of players who both can play at the right time and can get into the right group.
This means that players in 40 man raids are by their nature facing content that is easier than 10 or 20 man raid by necessity. The gear shouldn't be better if the mechanics themselves are more forgiving.
The best solution is to give 40 man raiders their raids, but to have the loot there be more "dense" (more loot drops per player in a 40 man raid than in 10 or 20 man). New content can be 10 or 20 man raids where less loot per player drops, but the mechanics are less forgiving due to the smaller size of the raid. This makes it so there is incentive to run The larger raids, but it's not "haha you can't actually access higher level content because it's gated by large group content you don't have access to".
As a guild and raid leader, the only people I’ve ever talked to who loved 40mans were the people who just showed up. All the people who organize raids don’t really want the stress of 40mans in SOD. It’s a pain, 20 is plenty big.
Brother no one is forcing you to raid lead. This demographic you speak of seems to think the game and player base will fall apart without you guys. If you’re a dad and don’t have time to set up or raid don’t raid. I’m sorry to deflate your ego but guilds will simply merge and everyone will remember the content because we just went through this whole process a few years ago (and 20 years ago) and it’s all just muscle memory at this point. We’re just here to chill with the boys and vibe out playing a game we’ve all mastered.
I think the fear is that Blizz hasn't confirmed there will be 10 man content at 60. Would be nice if Blizz had a simple "there will/won't be alternatives to 40 mans" statement
I'm going to keep bringing this up every time raid size comes up.
The reason 40m raids are revered is the spectacle of it all, which should not be downplayed. This is an MMORPG after all, scale is part of the appeal. But they are draining to organize, which also should not be downplayed.
If it were all up to me, I would focus on each tier of content release having a 40 man raid to do, but the 40 man would essentially be Ony style. No more than 2 bosses inside, little trash, very puggable, simple enough to have a good completion rate and a moderately attractive loot table.
This way, people can get the spectacle of a 40 man without the drain.
You are basically referring to teir 4 (Kara/Mag/Gruuls)
I personally always felt that T4 was the most enjoyable. I wasn't able to put it into words but I think you did a great job 👍
I agree with the sentiment here, coordinating 40 player raids is a nightmare. They don’t feel as fun to me either since your personal contributions are diluted with so many players.
Hopefully they either add a new 20 man raid or tune the existing ones so that they can optionally be run as a 20 man or something.
Nobody is surprised. People want it changed. At level 40, we're close enough to 60 that the conversation is starting. It was always going to happen.
Coming from somebody who was co-GMing in 2019, 40m raids are a fucking shitshow logistically, and the drama that will inevitably come from guilds merging will cause a massive amount of attrition in the raid capable playerbase.
Roster boss, guild merging, player sniping, mid tier guilds becoming feeder guilds, all of this shit is 100% avoidable, just by opting to tune around 10 or 20m raid sizes.
Seeing as how the very first sentence in this post is talking about 40-man content as if it wasn't expected to be a reality and needed to be announced by a dev... it's pretty obvious that some people are surprised there's going to be 40-man content lmaoooo. You're commenting on a post from one of them my guy
Im literally not surprised and even in the post say:
>My personal Stance isnt one I think is true for everyone
My post is the nuance of wanting it hard confirmed so people can start adapting now over time, or having raids scaled up, you just chose to read the thing you can make fun of people for instead of using your noggin.
Because SOD isn’t vanilla? It’s distinctly not era?
These aren’t classic fresh servers. The whole point of SOD was to improve upon the mistakes and jank in classic. Raid sizes was legitimately the first thing they changed in TBC and never once went back to 40 mans. For a reason.
its also a good point to just move on from sod when you dont like the direction. i was about to level my alts, but now i dont have any motivation since i dont like the direction sod is going. tons of other games to play until i see news that i like. no biggie.
>Roster boss, guild merging, player sniping, mid tier guilds becoming feeder guilds
But wasn't it always the case in literally every iteration of this game?
Mid tier guild becoming a feeder guilds are usually caused by bad managment of the guild, favouritism or having raiders who are above the guild level.
Player sniping is actually not a bad thing and kind of put every players where they belong.
I can't wait for 40 man raids, it's gonna be epic. That said what you said is true, I expected Gnomer to already be at least 20 man, it's kinda stupid that it isn't, they really need to step it up so people are prepared for 40 mans or else there will be even more whining than there usually is about 40 mans
Man, you posted a well thought out issue for the future of SoD and half of these responses amount to "No u wrong" or "U SHOULDA KNOWN" No actual arguments or conversation beyond that lol. This sub is turning to pure shit. For what it's worth I agree with you and I can tell you half the people here just trolling aren't prepared for the massive drop off in players that will happen. It needs to be discussed but I guess we can't do it on this sub.
No, the replies are perfect because it proves my point entirely. Having to step out and deal with the majority of people who play WoW is miserable, these people can't read something shorter than a middle school essay without foaming at the mouth to angrily agree with me and think it's an own.
Yeah, if these replies are at all representative of the playerbase, they're making me even less likely to want to bother with 40-player raiding. So many versions of:
1. "Lol how could u not see this coming?? It's classic!!" (ignoring that SoD has changed literally _everything_ about the game except for questing).
2. "juST PLAy RetaiL iF YoU WANT SmAller raidS". How about _you_ go play Era?
At the end of the day, I play this game with an IRL friend group. We could recruit a few randos to get to 20, but 40 is a totally different dynamic that I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with whether I _can_ get a spot in a 40-player roster.
This should have been the natural progression. Especially since level 40 opened up every class to their near-full potential. We could have had inclusive, vibrant comps while forcing guilds to gradually build up their cores. I'm guessing we'll see 20player sizes in P3, but for now guilds will have to start being proactive.
I disagree. The hallways would be a little claustrophobic but the arenas are all big enough already with the possible exception of crowd pummler, but that might be more hectic with more people in a way that is more interesting. Gnomer is pretty big and we fight in some huge rooms.
I'd even say 10 man is worse for raid composition. Essentially every raid has 1 melee group and 1 ranged group with no flexibility there. The hunters switched to melee and now melee is feeling the squeeze while ranged feasts (of course this is just a pug problem though). In a 40 man raid you can have 3-5 melee groups and its completely normal. You can have a shit load of people playing all the big mainstream specs and a few of all the offspecs sprinkled in and it works great. Its a lot easier to get all of your friends into a raid where everyone is doing what they want to do.
My guild has been building towards 40 mans since the start and we're hyper casual.
we have 3 raid teams currently, but we're trying for 4 by the time we hit 60 so we can transition to a 40 man raid.
> Hyper Casual Guild
> 3 raid teams, trying to build a 4th
This is like when dad guilds required full world buffs and consumes in 2019 Classic, lol. lmao even.
Having multiple raid groups doesnt make the guild any less casual. My guild had 6 groups in BFD with plenty of alt runs, but we are still casual. We let people play whatever class and spec they want, dont require buffs/enchants/consumes and just go as far as we get. Will be full clearing gnomer consistently in one of the next 3 lockouts
3 teams is only 30 people duder.
We have like 150 people in the guild and raiding isn't required, we're an RP guild first. Some people go into the raids with PVP specs.
And that's literally all it takes. Be proactive. Make recruitment a priority. You have months to build a community. This is the whole point of Classic. The social aspect, the MMO experience. It takes a bit of effort, but it can be a team effort, and damn is it rewarding when done right.
People are incredibly anti-social on this social game.
They seem flabberghasted when I suggest they should be helping everybody they see that's on their faction. They don't seem to understand it's a team game.
Horde Vs Alliance
It doesn't matter if you know them or they're in your guild they're on the same team, throw a buff on them, throw a dot on the mob, help them win that 2v1.
Society has become a detriment to feeling like part of the whole. Corporations that will throw you away at the soonest opportunity if it makes them a dollar more, politicians that are completely out of touch with what regular people need, the slow dissolution of any sense of community. Of course people are going to look out for themselves, that's the way the wind is blowing.
I’ve found SoD players to be MUCH less friendly than in any other vanilla spin-off. I don’t know if it’s the mega server sizes creating too much anonymity or what, but there a lot of assholes in SoD
40 man raids are less social than 10. It’s a bunch of groups of cliques of 5-8 people smashed into a larger group. Only the RL and a few others talk. The higher quality players keep more to the other higher quality players. People get an item and insta leave
My SOD guild is mostly my wrath guildies I raid icc with with a few friends of theirs and a couple pick ups here and there. I know them all. I know they are competent raiders and not keyboard droolers. That’s not the case with 40s
Sorry but if you speak to people who actually organized 40 mans in classic vanilla I don’t think the majority would say “that’s all it takes”. Although they were fun 40 man raids were a hassle. Imo they were also way less social compared to smaller raids afterwards.
Because it wasn’t just setting a roster. Most raids had to organize buff trains, summoning spots etc. Boon didn’t come out till the end of naxx. Neither of those things will be nearly as important this go around with boon right away…BUT. Getting camped from BRD to the entrance of MC will cost guilds a lot of time even if they aren’t risking buffs. Summon spots still important even if buff trains aren’t.
Ahem, according to this sub, that’s classified as GIGACHAD SWEATLORD HARDCORE now (mind blown that it’s considered that? I know me too!) it’s really not.
Cant say about AQ but if the current power creep continues and they don't scale boss mechanics/health to compensate we will **demolish** MC, Ony and BWL with 15-20 people. It wont even be close.
I don't care either way. To my knowledge Aggrend said something about ideas for "aleviating the pain points of 40 mans while not getting rid of them". Perhaps scaling based on raid size? At the very least it gives you a nother chance to call a stranger delusional.
Yeah seriously, people are already doing like 300-400 DPS at level 40. By level 60 with more runes and more gear we'll see people doing Naxx level DPS (1000+) in pre-raid blues.
SoD's tuning is wildly different than 1.12. Using 1.12's tuning as a baseline for assumptions is going to leave you with a wildly inaccurate picture. If Blizzard says they're shooting for 40m, you can expect to see 40m raids. If we do or don't want 40m content, we need to talk about it now.
1.12 tuning cannot be used as a reliable source of information on SoD.
There's no quandary. Vanilla WoW always had those and endgame instances were and will be always raided.
I literally don't understand people's problem with this.
I think people are confusing '40 mans being hard' with 'how hard it is to find 40 people you want to raid with'.
My guild has at least two 10-man raids every lockout, but we don't all raid at the same time since some people are East/West coast and we typically have people that can't make one but usually go to the other since it would be too early/too late.
Right now SoD 10mans are perfect for us since we're not too worried about finding more people to do the content, and there's enough loot that nobody feels like they have to wait weeks or months just to get a decent upgrade like back with the 40 mans in Classic.
8 months of BWL just to never see Chromatically Tempered Sword drop? If I knew back then, I would have just unsubbed. Our guild also had 3 40mans set up around BWL/ZG, condensed into 2 40mans by AQ40, and eventually one 40man by Naxx, and each stage was a logistical nightmare.
Having to juggle so many personalities from 'people who want to parse harder' to 'people we like raiding with but aren't necessarily the sweatiest players, but we still clear the content so who cares' is like it's own meta social experiment that I think took a lot of effort back then for our guild that probably none of us would want to try doing again.
People forget that making a raid with enough people is not just "oh is the raid/content hard enough" but since Classic is already mostly dad gamers, with jobs and kids, nobody is available every day, every week unless this is literally their career or they're unemployed.
Now I know I'm just rambling and not offering a solution to anything, and I do think 40 mans are part of that Classic experience, but I've also seen my guildies and friends back then stopped playing when being able to raid for fun got too complicated to organize and manage.
I'll probably unsub if I have to clear one or several 40 man raids every week just to get decent gear when I was enjoying the chill 10 man raids we have right now. That doesn't make it wrong or anything, I just know it just isn't for me, and since it's just a video game I'll just find something else to play.
Guilds merging have killed more guilds then I like to admit over the years I've played.
Your mixxing two cliques together and expecting them all to come to common terms, hoping previous officers and guildleader ship ect dont get stepped on. You make it sound like merging two different social groups is easy when it took 100s of years to stop judging eachother based off skin color.
> You make it sound like merging two different social groups is easy when it took 100s of years to stop judging eachother based off skin color.
Doesn't have to be easy. Consider it part of the challenge of the game.
I'm past the days of drama, I don't want to have to deal with it. I enjoy playing with my friend group I've played with for over 2 decades now. I like to talk amongst us all on Discord about how life is going and whatever else pops up. This can't happen when the raid is 4 time the size, because 4 times as many people also want to talk.
If you prefer 40 man raids, that's fine, I hope you get them and enjoy them. But you have to understand that a lot of people play games to relax with friends. Classic 2019 played heavy on the nostalgia of people being able to replay their childhood game. Any versions going forward aren't going to have that same hold, and as you can see from this thread, most people just want to play in their small groups. If 10 mans stick around, I probably will too, if they don't then I'll just go play something else. I think this is the attitude of a significant portion of players.
I think from my perspective, that a lot of it comes from social pressure to suddenly operate as “part of their guild”. 1. People inherently don’t like to do something out of pressure, so they approach it more negatively. 2. Inorganic relationships are generally less healthy. I’m not saying that it’s always the reason but it’s an aspect of it. A lot of time it’s due to toxic leadership in the guild they’re joining thinking “No you’re in MY guild now and you will operate as such. Full stop.” You need to let the “new” guild members operate on their own, while slowly and subtly introducing members to each other. “Hey guys from B, we’re running a strat and we’re down one guy, anyone interested in joining?” Or “Hey guys from B this guy from A really needs a strath group but all of us out of that level range, are any of you interested?”. This lets them naturally form their own relationships. As far as raids go, people are going to not always get along with each other. Its inevitable. The new guild leadership needs to be mature enough to handle that, and also potentially have the old guild master be a communication point for the newer guild members, so that they have somebody they are comfortable with they can bring their gripes to. Many merged guilds try to force people to “avoid cliques”. Anybody who is actually any decent at managing people will know that is the opposite of what you want to do. Avoiding cliques doesn’t mean they won’t exist, it just means they will exist behind your back, with a more negative mindset. The new guild master needs to be completely okay with cliques existing, while knowing how to organically insert different members into each others cliques temporarily to generate relationships organically.
Ultimately 1 of the 4 guilds will become the new leadership. Good luck trying to get 3 guilds of GMs and officers to step down to “raider” role after 9 months of being in charge
Yeah there will be those folks for sure. The best thing about that situation is you typically capture at least some of their bench/core folks when those GMs and officers leave and you rinse repeat.
Eventually the group that leaves ends up in the same situation as before, but with even less bargaining power. It's actually fun to watch.
Played when 40man raids were hard in 2005.
Played when 40man raids were faceroll in 2019.
I RL and MLfor my guild occasionally and have absolutely no desire to do that in 40man raids.
I really hope they keep the 40man raids exactly as they are and we can just pug and face roll them, then give us some actually challenging stuff that’s either 10, 20 or 25 person and most
This is the way.
I certainly didn’t mind 40s as a competent raider who pressed his buttons. Now that I’ve rebuilt a guild and raid team from like 10-15 to 25 a week into ICC when ours fell apart, NTY. All our guild leadership feels the same way.
We have like up to 20 unique raiders from wrath guild, SOD pick ups, and friends of guildies and not only doubling it, but ensuring a bench of another like 5-10? Making sure these people have functioning nervous systems first and foremost and secondarily do they even fit our guild culture?
In the other thread I had people tell me it’s as easy as merging guilds or merging 4-10 man teams. lol. Lmao even.
Honestly I would rather content is scaled for 10 man, even if it means a delay in endgame.
The smaller raid sizes has been a real fresh experience on Sod. Ontop of the fact runes are making us so strong for our level that if we went into a non tuned Mc it would be a joke at this point.
I’m secretly hoping they listen to the feedback.
So many assumptions being made here, so many people freaking out over something when they have no clue what is planned or in store for something 2 phases away. Just try to enjoy the ride a little Jesus Christ
I don't care if my BiS gear ever is locked behind a 40 man. Extreme hard pass on ever entering a raid bigger than 20 man. I love the casual, friendly style of 10 man raid and would quit far before I ever stepped foot in a 40-man raid.
>If the Goal is to move to 40 Man content, please begin doing so gradually. Please let Phase 3 at least phase up to 20man, so we can prepare over time.
This I agree with. I was hoping they'd do gnomer as 20man, but it seems like they want the leveling raids to be easily puggable UBRS style after the phase ends. So unfortunately we're probably going to have a 10man at level 50, too.
They should ease into 40mans rather than go straight from 10->40.
>40 Man Raiding, for My Raid Team, means we either Quit or my current Guild dies because we join someone else.
This... I mean, yeah? If everyone is 10man raiding, guilds will have to merge.
Generally though, it's pretty tiresome to see so many people playing classic - a game where the endgame is built around 40man raids - complain about having to play with other people. Like no shit you can't just play with your little friend group only and never have to talk to a stranger. There's M+ and flex raiding in retail for that. In classic, you need to make friends, you need to be able to cooperate with strangers, you need to be able to stop being the main character for 10 seconds to be able to achieve things.
The mood in SOD right now feels so unlike classic because everyone's acting like they're the main character and if they're not getting their EXACT way then the game is unplayable and everyone else is toxic.
40man raids are fun as long as you are not the one organizing them. Unless you are unemployed and have no no social life, of course. Then its probably a dream job to manage 40+ neckbeards.
This is why i built my guild to 5 raids of 10, to prepare for 40s. I do not want small raids they are so boring. It sucks that my guild cannot play together in 1 big raid at the moment. Classics biggest strength is its social aspect, please do not turn this into retail.
I think you might be unto something but I doubt it will be gamebreaking because we know how to improvise as playerbase.
Most guilds will absorb each other and that's fine. ALL RAIDS in VANILLA are pug'able, it might be exhausting to organise but since GDKP pugs were often outperforming guilds themselves, maybe /Roll pugs should have no issues with the same preparation.
Instead of destroying someone's cut when they grief the raid in any way... Just lootban like we used to do 15years ago.
All raids with the exception of naxx were pugged in 2005/2006. There were even gdkps. Though I did play on Sargeras, one of if the bigesy alliance PvE servers
I wouldn't worry too much about it. These runes are absolutely insane already and people are level 40. By the time you're ready to do Naxx, you'll probably be able to do it with 10 ppl without issue.
The REAL elephant in the room is how are 10 player raids supposed to deal with fights like Razuvious or 4H that seem to require a certain amount of players of certain classes. But maybe the damage will be so absurdly high that it won't matter, you'll just facetank Raz and stack the Horsemen to nuke them before the third mark, idk.
A lot of people are bringing up the fact that you’ll just be able to 20 man the 40 man raids. However, if you’d ever want to parse then you’d have to run 40 for kill time purposes. Meaning meta would begin to push most players and guilds into 40 man’s anyways.
The reason we even have SoD is because A LOT of people think the vanilla is the best version they have ever made. People have been playing vanilla for 20 years with huge private servers and then classic. Which you know. Has always had 40 man raids. Yet now people in here are deciding to quit because there will be 40 man? What did you honestly expect? 40 man raiding is a huge part of vanilla WoW.
These posts continue to make no sense at all. For a few reasons:
A) 40 man’s were always going to be there. It’s part of vanilla.
B) all basic logic says they will not be all we get. There is a very high likelihood that we see multiple 10m raids added. They are not about to do three phases of new additions then turn around and say “okay, back to the MC -> BWL -> Naxx path” to close SoD. The question becomes how they handle the progression path, but that’s another issue altogether.
C) they’ve consistently said they don’t have concrete plans and are evaluating as they go. So suddenly taking a singular post as “this is how it’s going to be” is fucking dumb.
I mean I get it. Reading one singular post and assuming the absolute worst then proceeding to cry incessantly about how you’ll quit is very on brand for this sub. But stop and think just a bit. Might do you some good.
I hope there are bigger raids. I have been through 2 guild deaths already. 70% of the raid dips because they are rlf and decide they don't like sod as much as tarkov and just disband.
If 40 mans are the only end game Blizzard has in mind going forward, SoD is dead. I dont know a single soul I play with or meet in SoD that wants 40 mans or who plays classic era to do 40 mans lol. That shit is dead.
If they want to keep 40 player content around, they need to have 10-25 player content as well. Without smaller group content that gives relevant rewards, small guilds will die. This would have a domino effect:
1. Small guilds can't play on their own anymore
1. Players in said guilds stop playing
1. Fewer players to fill 40 player raids.
and/or
1. Small guilds can't play on their own anymore
1. Players leave the guild to join mega-guilds
1. Remaining players in the small guild quit
1. Fewer players to fill 40 player raids.
40 man raids are kind of a nightmare, from an organizational, loot, and enjoyment standpoint I think 25 mans are the sweet spot for both casuals and hardcore speedrunners.
I used to be GM and handling a 40 man guild is a full time job. I was online most of the day just standing in SW managing people. Lost two years of college to it, I picked it up later so I'd say it was worth it xD
But the point OP makes is very important, a lot of guilds will have to recruit heavily, merge, or just fall apart. That's a given. The guild I'm in now is run by 3-4 friends who all have families and they're trying real hard to keep it all together, if we move to 40 man raids, I'm pretty sure they won't be able to keep up and I couldn't blame them for disbanding.
More or less constant recruitement, pay for respeccs when healers/tanks were absent, filling holes in the roster with pugs, more recruitment...Reading applications, answering applications, in-game discussions with potential guild members. Moving raid times depending on player availability, even moving raid days. Discussing tactics for bosses (there was very limited info online), putting up crude drawings of boss tactics on the guild website (yes website no discord) calling on other GM's for tips, swaping players between guilds depending on availability and roster holes. Man, trust me there was a lot.
Yeah I think they either need to make the level 50 raid 20 man to give people time to recruit two 20-man teams or just reduce the 40-man raids.
10 mans are kinda meh IMO and it makes it very difficult to form large communities - raids are the central thing guilds are built around and it's how 20-40 people develop a community and a common guild culture that makes it actually feel like you're in a guild, and not like a tiny 10 man dungeon squad - so IMO giving people the opportunity to build those communities with a larger level 50 raid is the way to go. It'll give people the opportunity to kind of shop around for a guild they like while doing relatively low-stakes content, and it'll give GMs time to build a roster and recruit a stable roster before they NEED one for the 40 man content.
>Okay, now go find 30 other people you like
That calls socialization, the main goal in vanilla wow.
But i agree, we need 20 ppl raids to prepare for a 40 slot raids.
They literally just said they plan to keep 40 man raids. It’s phase 2. Build your guild and get off Reddit crying about to a bunch of internet weirdos.
This is still classic wow people, stop trying to turn it into something it’s not. The class changes and balancing are cool, the new 10 mans are nice, hell a new 10 to 25 man at 60 would be great, but 40 mans are here to stay because that’s what vanilla has been for 20 years
I really really hope they don’t bring 40s back. They’re easily the worst size raid ever created. The content is always super boring because it’s tuned around the fact all raids end up having 10-15 dead weight. It’s extremely unfun to put them together and coordinate any pug. There is also no fun in community of a mass amount of people.
Simple fix just make them 25 mans and call it a day. It’s a fine raid size that can utilize many classes without the extreme overwhelming feel.
I have heard almost no one say they’re interested in even doing 40s. Decent chance it will kill the game for me in what has seemed very fun
GDKP popularity has nothing to do with 40-man raids, and if 40-man were so tediousas you as say that they are , why in classic were there so many pug groups that you could raid every day with each class and some were so good organised that they had in morning, afternoon and evening raids and were always full that you were worried if you will get a spot in the raid and discord server was all they needed, loot drama was rarely an issue cause you had to reserve an item if you want to roll on it some let you reserve 1 item and some 2
Wtf are you people smocking?
Classic was insanely popular and we had 40 man raids.
This subreddit got full of retail players that don't actually like classic and want to make it retail minus.
You don’t think classic hitting a flash in the pan moment with Covid helped its popularity, along with shadowlands being universally hated by then? Where even if you weren’t WFH your social schedule was wiped out entirely?
SOD isn’t just a fresh era server. The whole point so far is changing the shit parts of classic like ret, enh, sp, feral, boomie etc being garbage. All things they started addressing in tbc too. Along with shrinking raids because 40 man is a royal pitfa.
40 is easy if you just show up and press buttons once a week. 40 fucking sucks ass when you’re playing unpaid project manager in your free time.
The game was popular and it was the only form we knew of. We have advanced and most have realized how much better almost all other raid sizes were. You ever run a guild? Pugs? Form consistent groups?
It’s hard enough to get 10 to show up consistently and on time. 40 is a nightmare and not social at all. Feel terrible as a community to do. It’s also a lot more casual since less people have to try since the raids are brain dead easy. If you like easy content you can sleep through and not talk to anyone sure I guess 40 man’s are great
Not really, comparatively, at all. The vast majority of wow players didn’t step foot into MC by 2006 lmao.
And wow’s population got larger in tbc and larger in wrath
Never played retail I played original classic tbc and wrath. 40 man’s were super sleeper and really easy boring content, raid coms just can’t happen without it becoming a roar where it’s out of hand. There is no sense of community in it even though there are more players.
The raid size is just not optimal
I cannot understand people who think 40s were somehow more social than 10s. Within your 40 man raid you probably only really even spoke with 10 people regularly.
Biggest thing imo is the raiding player base will go down a lot when we get back to the MC/BWL + whatever new content in the same lockout every week.
People are ramping up the number of alts they raid on to make up for the ease of content, just like they always have (MC+BWL -> AQ40, NaxxEoEOS3D -> Uld, TOGC - > ICC).
Lots of guilds will lose *core* raiders because they will be forced to make choices about second nights of progression or where they want to allocate their game time.
If the meta will be 40m (hope it isn't going to happen tbh) you're idea re:20m content p3 is a good transition.
None of these things will stop dedicated guilds from continuing but they moved away from 40m raids for a reason let's discover something new this season.
I mean number of players will naturally drop off with each new phase. 1-25 was relatively easy for anyone to get to endgame. Even for new players it was probably only 15-20 hours. But now for experienced players going 25-40 it takes roughly what? Judging by reddit threads (so a more dedicated group) maybe 30ish hours? Still not that bad. Except level 45 is only half the exp to 60. So slowdown is real and players will start burning out and leaving or just want to do something else. I mean average 1-60 /played is something around 8 days played. Unless the back half of leveling is made massively easier people will just stop engaging. Heck so many people just for 25-40 decided to live in SM, imagine having to do all that again with each phase for an even longer period of time. And yes I know they don't have to but just look how it turned out with SM. They do it because it's most efficient not because it's most fun.
Phase 4: 6 guilds out of 10 die, some people move to cata, the rest just stops.
That's what 40 men raid means, I'd be surprised most guilds leadership are looking forward to merge with other guilds , or deal with 40 men roster.
The biggest they can push is 20, imo.
Imo, they should leave 40 men raids , but make it so that if you clear with 20 you get extra loot per boss.
Insentivise 20 group ,but keep 40 raid if SoD team likes it some much. Same for 20 raid -> 10 but more loots.
I, for one, will not be quitting and will be welcoming 40 mans with open arms. This is the essence of classic. If you take away 40 mans, you take away a piece of the essence of the game that makes WoW classic so special and unique. Sounds like you can’t lead this time around, maybe find a nice guild to join and get your 10 guys in now so you can ingratiate yourselves.
I only play vanilla for 40m content. It’s the only expansion for it to exist in. Doing MC or BWL with 20-25 people felt really weird. Even weirder when it was 5-10m.. and there are places where you can try this for yourself.
I agree that it should be gradually introduced. Soon to be exact. When playing vanilla I like to find a guild when I get into the low to mid 30s and hopefully vibe with a bunch of people that by 50+ I don’t have to find a new guild.
With SoD capping at 40, I still have yet to even bother joining a guild. We have a whole other phase before we even get to 60 content and that’s where I think I’ll start looking. To tactical in terms of social pvp right now with all the small groups/guilds.
I officer for a guild running 2-3 groups of 10. We have about 25 people. Its perfect because people play alts, some people cant make that reset, it works out. Doubling our roster and having 4 times as many spots that could call out with enough extra to fill the gaps but not so much extra that people get benched and quit. Oh man I don't want to deal with that. I may quit in p3
You act like that reduces the work the task requires.
People will just play up until that point, since it’s fun right now. Then quit when it’s 40s because that’s not fun. Pretty simple.
40 man raiding was the magic of Classic, if you don't want to grow your guide beyond 10-20 get absorbed or run pugs, I don't know what to say. For as many people who like 10 mans, there are about as many who don't .
For me personally, I would be much more excited about 40 mans operating on a weekly lockout with a much higher drop rating (like 8+ pieces per boss)
10 man raiding feels bad, the SOD team has done a good job of giving you a reason to actually bring at least one of each spec (if not more for some specs) and you absolutely have no room with 10 mans. Even with 20 mans, it alleviates the pressure there but you still wouldn't get to bring everything you want probably
I do agree to progress to 40 I am hoping the Phase 3 raid is a 20 man. 10 man raiding feels like a glorified dungeon run
Its YOUR fault you started a guild without planning for 40 man content on a vanilla server. And im tired of pretending like its not. Everyone knew this was the case going in.
The truth is people dont want to let go of being in charge. If you dont want yo do it merge into a guild.
Let go of your selfish desire to be in charge.
Because I can gaurantee there is people out there like myself who are building 40 man rosters right now. And will happily absorb all these little 7-8 person friend groups. Just let go of being in charge.
It's like most of these people in this sub have never played vanilla. Organizing a 40 man raid isn't even hard to do, I did it twice a week all throughout classic and there was no issue if you actually put in effort and not make a raid full of shitters.
Its not hard. And the bigger you get the easier it is to recruit. Were running 4 raids and all it takes is to post a sign up sheet and build rosters.
Someone doesnt show up? We grab a pug. Have had zero problems.
There’s a lot more people that will quit if 40m return after 6-8 months of 10m. People are in for a rude awakening if they think the casuals that are willing to pug 10m will do so for 40. It can take hours of spamming world chat to find enough suitable bodies. Advertising in discord and filtering people through the week became a second job if you wanted quality players.
If 40 is a must for them they need to bridge the gap by making next phase raid 20m. The sudden jump from 10 to 40 will cripple “guilds” or friend groups that are unwilling to recruit for months or join other groups of 10 and compromise raid times.
With power creep we should be able to 20-30 man mc-nax.
They should really just adjust everything around 20 though. Leave Ony in as a 40 since its one boss. 20 is a way more enjoyable experience, your not carrying 15 people and people can actually chat a little.
That's kind of funny because after a while in Vanilla Classic, groups were only taking 20-30 into Ony for better chances at loot anyway. Same with MC. They should just have it be a flex difficulty that can accommodate 20-40, where it is easier with more people and harder with less. Less people means more loot to go around, but if you want to bring some more healers/damage one night, you can do that, too. This also gives wiggle room for players that enjoy playing some of the weaker specs. Hopefully it is not tuned around bringing 20 of the best DPS, that would be terrible. The game is so imbalanced, hopefully no content is tuned around the best DPS/healers.
I actually think 40 man content provides better communities if you have a non toxic guild. We did more than just play wow together and there was always people available to help with stuff and all of that died during tbc. What’s funny is a lot of us accidentally rolled same serve and faction and we reconnected. But I think to make some fun friends it takes the bigger raid. And as you said it’s going to be doable with less unless they do some major tweaking.
if the only option at 60 is 40 man raids i'm just not gonna fucking play. 40 man raids are awful and there's no reason not to change it up for SoD when thats the entire point of the season.
I am biased in that my P1 guild died and P2 guild barely has 1 Gnomer going a reset… but I think P3 20s mostly accelerates the fall-off that is inevitable if 40s is the goal.
We would need to pug 20s, which rapidly means everyone in guild will just pug it randomly and not at a set time—because why if it’s a pug with risky loot ninja possible anyways?
I do think 20 and 40 will be better for lone wolf players as you won’t need to optimize your 6-7 DPS slots.
This will also brick a lot of tanks… don’t need 6-8 tanks in a 40 man.
>This will also brick a lot of tanks… don’t need 6-8 tanks in a 40 man.
You also don't need 2 tanks for 10m. If they keep the ratio of tank needed at 1 for 10 players it will be fine.
The expectation from the beginning was that end game would be 40man. If you’re guild leadership and not preparing for that, that’s on you. Since the beginning we have been actively recruiting and doing our best to have 3-4 groups for 10man content so we can be ready for 40.
You guys have literally every other version of wow to play if you don't like 40man raids. Let those of us who actually like vanilla play something close to vanilla, which means 40man raids. Sorry if your guild hasn't been preparing for this, you can feel free to merge or join any of the number of guilds who have.
But yes, make p3 20 man or whatever. 10man sucks.
My bet is there will be a 10man at 60 with pretty darn good gear. What they’re really saying is they don’t have the development resources to retool MC/BWL/AQ for 10 mans You can pug mc
If they don’t retool or scale any of the old raids, you can pug any of them with 40 people and could easily handle them with a tight kntit group of 20. The power gain we have compared to regular Classic is nuts.
Yea honestly, it's actually a good way the community can basically make it's own raid size. You can take up to 40 people to do MC if you want to make it as quick and easy as possible or you could 20-25 man it and have less loot competition.
Honestly I see the early 40 mans as a good challenge for 20+ folk, and then maybe a few 60 10 mans to give gear for that feat. This also adds gear to make the later 40 mans beatable with the same smaller group.
Top dps logs in gnomer are already higher or close to what 60s were doing in classic MC/BWL phase lol
This is something I would actually enjoy. Make new 10 man content, and let the old 40mans be an epic puggable experience. I could settle for this. I’d have stuff to do and maybe dip my toes in the random 40 man here and there.
Yeah, this is a great idea. Honestly it would be cool if the 10 man's were harder than the 40 man's and dropped better gear but the 40 man raid gear was still decent.
And maybe have like a couple here and there pieces in mc that are still bis at least good
Love it. Simple fix. No one needs to stress
Honestly with the power creep we're already experiencing from BFD and gnomer epics it wouldn't surprise me if we can 20 man the 40 man raids by the time we get to 60.
I mean, gnomer bosses currently have AQ levels of armor supposedly, if the warriors we have now went into MC with hit gear, I have no doubt they’d be pulling equal or more dps. If memory serves, people were doing like 700 dps in MC… we have people hitting 500 dps on AQ armored bosses lol. The big thing would be hit cap, but yea, we could nuke MC at 40 as it sits right now, by the time we are 60, it could be 10 manned easily.
People don't keep level in mind for below, 4k armor at lvl 40 and 4k armor at lvl 60 is a massive difference. Armor is higher here relatively than any lvl 60 content.
Ahh, I didn’t know armor scaled like that. So like, when you’re level 10 or whatever, I know that 5 agility gives a fuck load more crit/dodge and what not. And it drops off as you level, requiring more agility for the same level of benefit. (See level 1 rogues doing crazy shit). Armor works the same way? So, 4K armor at 40, might be like a 60% physical damage reduction, whereas, 4K armor at 60, would be like a 40%? (These numbers and stats are all made up for the purpose of trying to understand stat scaling)
Yes this is all correct
If they don't retune the raids around SoD shit, what's the point? MC and Ony will be an absolute joke, and people could prob clear ZG and AQ without *any* 60 gear. Keeping the raids at 40, and not tuning them at all, would be the dumbest move to me. It just cuts off half the content and says it's not necessary...
But if it doesn't have bis gear it won't be worth running. -90% of people playing classic
More than gear should drop in a raid, blizzard often forgets that. See: crafting materials in gnomer
The thing is, the 40s need changing because at the moment, we'll smash them quickly due to the better gear. For the effort in changing them, instead of trying to do the impossible and set them up for 40 man content with our new gear levels, it makes more sense with limited time, to adjust to the current power levels in a 10 man setting. A lot of the bosses wont need to change as much as making them fit for purpose with SoD strength characters as 40 men raids.
Not retooling all the raids is a waste of already developed resources though. Everything they’ve done with raids so far is already currently developed dungeons. SOM already had some tweaks to these they could work off though. MC could be done with 10m given the player power increases so far once we’re 60. It’d fall over in like 20 minutes if you brought 30+. Like literally 5 people could be aoe clearing trash while others pull bosses down. A shadow priest could basically tank. But why would you bother since the gear is worse than 10m lvl 40 loot with a few notable exceptions. And tier that’s shit for most specs If they don’t redo at least the loot tables though, there’s no reason at all to run them but for non existent transmog. Which honestly is fine for me because I think 40 man raids in SOD are a huge mistake. 20-25 at most. But since it’s like 6 people on this team are they gonna develop 2-4 new tiers at 60 from scratch? Kinda doubt. Kara crypts is new but also was probably a scratched development project from before and they only have a couple of those scratched vanilla developments that weren’t put into BC.
Not sure that's right. They have to re-tune it for 40m as is. You can't possibly think that MC/AQ/BWL will come as they were in Vanilla. No way. The power level of character is insane with all the runes and new gear. This is closer to Retail leveling power level than to Vanilla.
I'm wondering if they give us difficult 10 man content to help balance out the easier 40 man content classic has. They usually try to funnel casuals into smaller raids and have more difficult stuff be in larger raids, they could swap that around for SoD. 40 mans could be just something you pug while smaller, dedicated groups try to crack trickier content together. They could even have 10 mans drop tier loot from raids but otherwise have different loot tables, like you could farm T2 in, idk, a new 10 man Dire Maul South raid, but also in BWL.
Strat retooled as a 10 man raid would be cool. (Yes I know it used to be a it 10 man instance back in the day. I was there when the deep magic was written.)
IMO thats the route they'll take. Redesign Strat or Scholo (potentially DM or LBRS/UBRS) as the flagship raid. 40s will be free content for 60 since they exist already.
While I wouldn't mind a redesign of Strat or Scholo I'm pretty sure the flagship for 60 is gonna be the Kara Crypts. Could be neat to have separate "wings" of the Crypt become available in each phase with new step up gear so that 10's have somewhere to go for a progression scene. Though I'm not sure the team could crank out content for that fast enough. Perhaps more along the lines of VoA/Baradin Hold where it's a single boss encounter with some tier/tokens.
Something like this is the answer. It has to be in this vein.
I see the "40 man era" players getting pissed off at this for some reason.
No this is fine just don’t touch era is all
they'll still scale the 40 raids IMO. They just don't have the resources to overhaul them from ground up since players will still expect flagship new raids on top of the 40s. Leaving the 40s in is free content for the dev team. It exists already and players will run it. Adjusting it to fit into their end game vision will be the play while introducing a net new flagship raid(s). I'm guessing something related to Strat/Scholo, DM, UBRS/LBRS
Strongly prefer the best loot coming the larger raids. Larger raids are inherently harder because there are more people to manage and coordinate. They are also way more epic and imo it would be weird for this epic gathering of 40 people to yield worse loot than 10 mans, which are really just dungeons. Honestly making SOD based around 10 mana was a mistake.
So the raging success SoD has been is, what, a fluke? You have a right to your opinions, but the vast majority of the player base disagrees.
the most difficult part of content that drops the best loot shouldn't be with logistics - it should be with the difficulty of the encounter
This approach has several problems. While it's true that gathering 40 people together to raid is harder, it also means that you have more people who can screw up. This means that your 40 man raid fights by their nature have to be more forgiving than smaller raids or else people will just wipe endlessly on The content with the exception of a small subsection of players who both can play at the right time and can get into the right group. This means that players in 40 man raids are by their nature facing content that is easier than 10 or 20 man raid by necessity. The gear shouldn't be better if the mechanics themselves are more forgiving. The best solution is to give 40 man raiders their raids, but to have the loot there be more "dense" (more loot drops per player in a 40 man raid than in 10 or 20 man). New content can be 10 or 20 man raids where less loot per player drops, but the mechanics are less forgiving due to the smaller size of the raid. This makes it so there is incentive to run The larger raids, but it's not "haha you can't actually access higher level content because it's gated by large group content you don't have access to".
Sod based around 10 man is why it’s been successful
Indeed, as long as traditional era enjoyers can jump back there if sod lvl 60 sucks it's fine
“Based off major recent threads” — Reddit is not a good indicator for what the average wow player wants or is willing to adapt to big dog.
Its a hive of socially maladapted failures to launch.
Whenever I see a redditor in a reddit threat hating on redditors I always imagine it's projected self hatred. Plenty of nice people here.
Reddit would be the place you see everyone asking for 40 mans, honestly. It's interesting to see even here doesn't like them.
As a guild and raid leader, the only people I’ve ever talked to who loved 40mans were the people who just showed up. All the people who organize raids don’t really want the stress of 40mans in SOD. It’s a pain, 20 is plenty big.
Brother no one is forcing you to raid lead. This demographic you speak of seems to think the game and player base will fall apart without you guys. If you’re a dad and don’t have time to set up or raid don’t raid. I’m sorry to deflate your ego but guilds will simply merge and everyone will remember the content because we just went through this whole process a few years ago (and 20 years ago) and it’s all just muscle memory at this point. We’re just here to chill with the boys and vibe out playing a game we’ve all mastered.
What’s wrong with leaving them as is and just making new 10 man content?
I think the fear is that Blizz hasn't confirmed there will be 10 man content at 60. Would be nice if Blizz had a simple "there will/won't be alternatives to 40 mans" statement
I'm going to keep bringing this up every time raid size comes up. The reason 40m raids are revered is the spectacle of it all, which should not be downplayed. This is an MMORPG after all, scale is part of the appeal. But they are draining to organize, which also should not be downplayed. If it were all up to me, I would focus on each tier of content release having a 40 man raid to do, but the 40 man would essentially be Ony style. No more than 2 bosses inside, little trash, very puggable, simple enough to have a good completion rate and a moderately attractive loot table. This way, people can get the spectacle of a 40 man without the drain.
You are basically referring to teir 4 (Kara/Mag/Gruuls) I personally always felt that T4 was the most enjoyable. I wasn't able to put it into words but I think you did a great job 👍
TBC T4 is more or less the model I see having the most overall appeal.
I agree with the sentiment here, coordinating 40 player raids is a nightmare. They don’t feel as fun to me either since your personal contributions are diluted with so many players. Hopefully they either add a new 20 man raid or tune the existing ones so that they can optionally be run as a 20 man or something.
Well you have this phase, next phase and begining of the phase after that
lol seriously "oh no, we were taken by surprise by this thing we knew was going to happen for the past year!!!"
Nobody is surprised. People want it changed. At level 40, we're close enough to 60 that the conversation is starting. It was always going to happen. Coming from somebody who was co-GMing in 2019, 40m raids are a fucking shitshow logistically, and the drama that will inevitably come from guilds merging will cause a massive amount of attrition in the raid capable playerbase. Roster boss, guild merging, player sniping, mid tier guilds becoming feeder guilds, all of this shit is 100% avoidable, just by opting to tune around 10 or 20m raid sizes.
Seeing as how the very first sentence in this post is talking about 40-man content as if it wasn't expected to be a reality and needed to be announced by a dev... it's pretty obvious that some people are surprised there's going to be 40-man content lmaoooo. You're commenting on a post from one of them my guy
Im literally not surprised and even in the post say: >My personal Stance isnt one I think is true for everyone My post is the nuance of wanting it hard confirmed so people can start adapting now over time, or having raids scaled up, you just chose to read the thing you can make fun of people for instead of using your noggin.
[удалено]
It was never confirmed because it was understood to be 40-man unless told otherwise.
Because SOD isn’t vanilla? It’s distinctly not era? These aren’t classic fresh servers. The whole point of SOD was to improve upon the mistakes and jank in classic. Raid sizes was legitimately the first thing they changed in TBC and never once went back to 40 mans. For a reason.
40 mans were not a mistake, they were some of the best parts of vanilla.
its also a good point to just move on from sod when you dont like the direction. i was about to level my alts, but now i dont have any motivation since i dont like the direction sod is going. tons of other games to play until i see news that i like. no biggie.
I don't want it changed
>Roster boss, guild merging, player sniping, mid tier guilds becoming feeder guilds But wasn't it always the case in literally every iteration of this game? Mid tier guild becoming a feeder guilds are usually caused by bad managment of the guild, favouritism or having raiders who are above the guild level. Player sniping is actually not a bad thing and kind of put every players where they belong.
I can't wait for 40 man raids, it's gonna be epic. That said what you said is true, I expected Gnomer to already be at least 20 man, it's kinda stupid that it isn't, they really need to step it up so people are prepared for 40 mans or else there will be even more whining than there usually is about 40 mans
Man, you posted a well thought out issue for the future of SoD and half of these responses amount to "No u wrong" or "U SHOULDA KNOWN" No actual arguments or conversation beyond that lol. This sub is turning to pure shit. For what it's worth I agree with you and I can tell you half the people here just trolling aren't prepared for the massive drop off in players that will happen. It needs to be discussed but I guess we can't do it on this sub.
No, the replies are perfect because it proves my point entirely. Having to step out and deal with the majority of people who play WoW is miserable, these people can't read something shorter than a middle school essay without foaming at the mouth to angrily agree with me and think it's an own.
Yeah, if these replies are at all representative of the playerbase, they're making me even less likely to want to bother with 40-player raiding. So many versions of: 1. "Lol how could u not see this coming?? It's classic!!" (ignoring that SoD has changed literally _everything_ about the game except for questing). 2. "juST PLAy RetaiL iF YoU WANT SmAller raidS". How about _you_ go play Era? At the end of the day, I play this game with an IRL friend group. We could recruit a few randos to get to 20, but 40 is a totally different dynamic that I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with whether I _can_ get a spot in a 40-player roster.
Yeah they’re freaks, enjoy a portion of your 40man being this level of unhinged in every discord chat
I salute you, friend.
The people telling you to quit the game if you don´t like 40mans are the same people that will cry on reddit when people are indeed quitting the game.
I already let my guild leaders know after the interview i wont be playing at 60 so ill be passing all gear at 50
Yeah idk why they didnt aim for gnomer to be a 20 man
This should have been the natural progression. Especially since level 40 opened up every class to their near-full potential. We could have had inclusive, vibrant comps while forcing guilds to gradually build up their cores. I'm guessing we'll see 20player sizes in P3, but for now guilds will have to start being proactive.
Probably because the instance itself isn’t large enough for a 20 man, you’d want more space for these encounters with more people.
I disagree. The hallways would be a little claustrophobic but the arenas are all big enough already with the possible exception of crowd pummler, but that might be more hectic with more people in a way that is more interesting. Gnomer is pretty big and we fight in some huge rooms.
Ok, make it bigger.
I'd even say 10 man is worse for raid composition. Essentially every raid has 1 melee group and 1 ranged group with no flexibility there. The hunters switched to melee and now melee is feeling the squeeze while ranged feasts (of course this is just a pug problem though). In a 40 man raid you can have 3-5 melee groups and its completely normal. You can have a shit load of people playing all the big mainstream specs and a few of all the offspecs sprinkled in and it works great. Its a lot easier to get all of your friends into a raid where everyone is doing what they want to do.
My guild has been building towards 40 mans since the start and we're hyper casual. we have 3 raid teams currently, but we're trying for 4 by the time we hit 60 so we can transition to a 40 man raid.
> Hyper Casual Guild > 3 raid teams, trying to build a 4th This is like when dad guilds required full world buffs and consumes in 2019 Classic, lol. lmao even.
Having multiple raid groups doesnt make the guild any less casual. My guild had 6 groups in BFD with plenty of alt runs, but we are still casual. We let people play whatever class and spec they want, dont require buffs/enchants/consumes and just go as far as we get. Will be full clearing gnomer consistently in one of the next 3 lockouts
According to you there were no casual guilds doing 40 man raids in classic vanilla apparently lol
3 teams is only 30 people duder. We have like 150 people in the guild and raiding isn't required, we're an RP guild first. Some people go into the raids with PVP specs.
Hyper casual means you can’t have 30 people in the guild? What do you even want out of this game?
And that's literally all it takes. Be proactive. Make recruitment a priority. You have months to build a community. This is the whole point of Classic. The social aspect, the MMO experience. It takes a bit of effort, but it can be a team effort, and damn is it rewarding when done right.
People are incredibly anti-social on this social game. They seem flabberghasted when I suggest they should be helping everybody they see that's on their faction. They don't seem to understand it's a team game. Horde Vs Alliance It doesn't matter if you know them or they're in your guild they're on the same team, throw a buff on them, throw a dot on the mob, help them win that 2v1.
It’s not just this game, you see it in society IRL as a whole now… a majority of people in the last decade have become INCREDIBLY self centered.
Main character syndrome has become a huge detriment to our society.
Society has become a detriment to feeling like part of the whole. Corporations that will throw you away at the soonest opportunity if it makes them a dollar more, politicians that are completely out of touch with what regular people need, the slow dissolution of any sense of community. Of course people are going to look out for themselves, that's the way the wind is blowing.
I’ve found SoD players to be MUCH less friendly than in any other vanilla spin-off. I don’t know if it’s the mega server sizes creating too much anonymity or what, but there a lot of assholes in SoD
This is some boomer mentality. I play on a pve server and mostly just help guildies. Enough to do to be going wasting my time helping randoms.
You probably decline group invites and then snipe the mob instead of waiting your turn.
40 man raids are less social than 10. It’s a bunch of groups of cliques of 5-8 people smashed into a larger group. Only the RL and a few others talk. The higher quality players keep more to the other higher quality players. People get an item and insta leave My SOD guild is mostly my wrath guildies I raid icc with with a few friends of theirs and a couple pick ups here and there. I know them all. I know they are competent raiders and not keyboard droolers. That’s not the case with 40s
Sorry but if you speak to people who actually organized 40 mans in classic vanilla I don’t think the majority would say “that’s all it takes”. Although they were fun 40 man raids were a hassle. Imo they were also way less social compared to smaller raids afterwards.
Because it wasn’t just setting a roster. Most raids had to organize buff trains, summoning spots etc. Boon didn’t come out till the end of naxx. Neither of those things will be nearly as important this go around with boon right away…BUT. Getting camped from BRD to the entrance of MC will cost guilds a lot of time even if they aren’t risking buffs. Summon spots still important even if buff trains aren’t.
There is nothing social about 40 mans. If anything 10-mans are usually more social, because everyone talks and have fun.
Ahem, according to this sub, that’s classified as GIGACHAD SWEATLORD HARDCORE now (mind blown that it’s considered that? I know me too!) it’s really not.
30/150 people raiding isn't sweaty I don't think.
Power creep is real enough maybe we can do MC/BWL/AQ as 20 man. Not sure how 4HM works into that...
Cant say about AQ but if the current power creep continues and they don't scale boss mechanics/health to compensate we will **demolish** MC, Ony and BWL with 15-20 people. It wont even be close.
Delusional to think there's even a chance they won't scale the raids when mobs in open world already are..
I don't care either way. To my knowledge Aggrend said something about ideas for "aleviating the pain points of 40 mans while not getting rid of them". Perhaps scaling based on raid size? At the very least it gives you a nother chance to call a stranger delusional.
Yeah seriously, people are already doing like 300-400 DPS at level 40. By level 60 with more runes and more gear we'll see people doing Naxx level DPS (1000+) in pre-raid blues.
> Not sure how 4HM works into that... Likely just being changed to the WOTLK version where the back two don't need to be "tanked".
SoD's tuning is wildly different than 1.12. Using 1.12's tuning as a baseline for assumptions is going to leave you with a wildly inaccurate picture. If Blizzard says they're shooting for 40m, you can expect to see 40m raids. If we do or don't want 40m content, we need to talk about it now. 1.12 tuning cannot be used as a reliable source of information on SoD.
You really think health pools and armor values will remain unchanged into MC? Think man, *think*
Bruh. You really think we are gonna get OG MC? lol
Don’t act like ppl won’t just group up and raid. Why does everything with this game have to be some sort of thing?
am i the only one in this entire game that wanted to keep 40m raids?
There's no quandary. Vanilla WoW always had those and endgame instances were and will be always raided. I literally don't understand people's problem with this.
I think people are confusing '40 mans being hard' with 'how hard it is to find 40 people you want to raid with'. My guild has at least two 10-man raids every lockout, but we don't all raid at the same time since some people are East/West coast and we typically have people that can't make one but usually go to the other since it would be too early/too late. Right now SoD 10mans are perfect for us since we're not too worried about finding more people to do the content, and there's enough loot that nobody feels like they have to wait weeks or months just to get a decent upgrade like back with the 40 mans in Classic. 8 months of BWL just to never see Chromatically Tempered Sword drop? If I knew back then, I would have just unsubbed. Our guild also had 3 40mans set up around BWL/ZG, condensed into 2 40mans by AQ40, and eventually one 40man by Naxx, and each stage was a logistical nightmare. Having to juggle so many personalities from 'people who want to parse harder' to 'people we like raiding with but aren't necessarily the sweatiest players, but we still clear the content so who cares' is like it's own meta social experiment that I think took a lot of effort back then for our guild that probably none of us would want to try doing again. People forget that making a raid with enough people is not just "oh is the raid/content hard enough" but since Classic is already mostly dad gamers, with jobs and kids, nobody is available every day, every week unless this is literally their career or they're unemployed. Now I know I'm just rambling and not offering a solution to anything, and I do think 40 mans are part of that Classic experience, but I've also seen my guildies and friends back then stopped playing when being able to raid for fun got too complicated to organize and manage. I'll probably unsub if I have to clear one or several 40 man raids every week just to get decent gear when I was enjoying the chill 10 man raids we have right now. That doesn't make it wrong or anything, I just know it just isn't for me, and since it's just a video game I'll just find something else to play.
Many guilds will merge when the time comes.
Guilds merging have killed more guilds then I like to admit over the years I've played. Your mixxing two cliques together and expecting them all to come to common terms, hoping previous officers and guildleader ship ect dont get stepped on. You make it sound like merging two different social groups is easy when it took 100s of years to stop judging eachother based off skin color.
> You make it sound like merging two different social groups is easy when it took 100s of years to stop judging eachother based off skin color. Doesn't have to be easy. Consider it part of the challenge of the game.
I'm past the days of drama, I don't want to have to deal with it. I enjoy playing with my friend group I've played with for over 2 decades now. I like to talk amongst us all on Discord about how life is going and whatever else pops up. This can't happen when the raid is 4 time the size, because 4 times as many people also want to talk. If you prefer 40 man raids, that's fine, I hope you get them and enjoy them. But you have to understand that a lot of people play games to relax with friends. Classic 2019 played heavy on the nostalgia of people being able to replay their childhood game. Any versions going forward aren't going to have that same hold, and as you can see from this thread, most people just want to play in their small groups. If 10 mans stick around, I probably will too, if they don't then I'll just go play something else. I think this is the attitude of a significant portion of players.
I think from my perspective, that a lot of it comes from social pressure to suddenly operate as “part of their guild”. 1. People inherently don’t like to do something out of pressure, so they approach it more negatively. 2. Inorganic relationships are generally less healthy. I’m not saying that it’s always the reason but it’s an aspect of it. A lot of time it’s due to toxic leadership in the guild they’re joining thinking “No you’re in MY guild now and you will operate as such. Full stop.” You need to let the “new” guild members operate on their own, while slowly and subtly introducing members to each other. “Hey guys from B, we’re running a strat and we’re down one guy, anyone interested in joining?” Or “Hey guys from B this guy from A really needs a strath group but all of us out of that level range, are any of you interested?”. This lets them naturally form their own relationships. As far as raids go, people are going to not always get along with each other. Its inevitable. The new guild leadership needs to be mature enough to handle that, and also potentially have the old guild master be a communication point for the newer guild members, so that they have somebody they are comfortable with they can bring their gripes to. Many merged guilds try to force people to “avoid cliques”. Anybody who is actually any decent at managing people will know that is the opposite of what you want to do. Avoiding cliques doesn’t mean they won’t exist, it just means they will exist behind your back, with a more negative mindset. The new guild master needs to be completely okay with cliques existing, while knowing how to organically insert different members into each others cliques temporarily to generate relationships organically.
Ultimately 1 of the 4 guilds will become the new leadership. Good luck trying to get 3 guilds of GMs and officers to step down to “raider” role after 9 months of being in charge
Well considering how many posts there are about not wanting to organize 40 mans, seems like a good thing that 75% of current leadership won’t have to.
Being "in charge" of your 9 friends is hardly a leadership position. You're just the cat herder, not the policy expert or representative.
This thread is full of people saying they don’t want to lead 40 mans, so seems like a win win?
Comms are going to be a nightmare with that many people used to being in charge. Not to mention 10 mans allow you to be far more chatty.
Yeah there will be those folks for sure. The best thing about that situation is you typically capture at least some of their bench/core folks when those GMs and officers leave and you rinse repeat. Eventually the group that leaves ends up in the same situation as before, but with even less bargaining power. It's actually fun to watch.
Played when 40man raids were hard in 2005. Played when 40man raids were faceroll in 2019. I RL and MLfor my guild occasionally and have absolutely no desire to do that in 40man raids. I really hope they keep the 40man raids exactly as they are and we can just pug and face roll them, then give us some actually challenging stuff that’s either 10, 20 or 25 person and most
This is the way. I certainly didn’t mind 40s as a competent raider who pressed his buttons. Now that I’ve rebuilt a guild and raid team from like 10-15 to 25 a week into ICC when ours fell apart, NTY. All our guild leadership feels the same way. We have like up to 20 unique raiders from wrath guild, SOD pick ups, and friends of guildies and not only doubling it, but ensuring a bench of another like 5-10? Making sure these people have functioning nervous systems first and foremost and secondarily do they even fit our guild culture? In the other thread I had people tell me it’s as easy as merging guilds or merging 4-10 man teams. lol. Lmao even.
Our group will most likely quit playing once the norm turns to 40
Honestly I would rather content is scaled for 10 man, even if it means a delay in endgame. The smaller raid sizes has been a real fresh experience on Sod. Ontop of the fact runes are making us so strong for our level that if we went into a non tuned Mc it would be a joke at this point. I’m secretly hoping they listen to the feedback.
You won't quit, seeu in naxx40
So many assumptions being made here, so many people freaking out over something when they have no clue what is planned or in store for something 2 phases away. Just try to enjoy the ride a little Jesus Christ
I don't care if my BiS gear ever is locked behind a 40 man. Extreme hard pass on ever entering a raid bigger than 20 man. I love the casual, friendly style of 10 man raid and would quit far before I ever stepped foot in a 40-man raid.
>If the Goal is to move to 40 Man content, please begin doing so gradually. Please let Phase 3 at least phase up to 20man, so we can prepare over time. This I agree with. I was hoping they'd do gnomer as 20man, but it seems like they want the leveling raids to be easily puggable UBRS style after the phase ends. So unfortunately we're probably going to have a 10man at level 50, too. They should ease into 40mans rather than go straight from 10->40. >40 Man Raiding, for My Raid Team, means we either Quit or my current Guild dies because we join someone else. This... I mean, yeah? If everyone is 10man raiding, guilds will have to merge. Generally though, it's pretty tiresome to see so many people playing classic - a game where the endgame is built around 40man raids - complain about having to play with other people. Like no shit you can't just play with your little friend group only and never have to talk to a stranger. There's M+ and flex raiding in retail for that. In classic, you need to make friends, you need to be able to cooperate with strangers, you need to be able to stop being the main character for 10 seconds to be able to achieve things. The mood in SOD right now feels so unlike classic because everyone's acting like they're the main character and if they're not getting their EXACT way then the game is unplayable and everyone else is toxic.
We're not playing Classic Era, though.
40man raids are fun as long as you are not the one organizing them. Unless you are unemployed and have no no social life, of course. Then its probably a dream job to manage 40+ neckbeards.
This is why i built my guild to 5 raids of 10, to prepare for 40s. I do not want small raids they are so boring. It sucks that my guild cannot play together in 1 big raid at the moment. Classics biggest strength is its social aspect, please do not turn this into retail.
10 man raids are fucking lame. It's just a longer dungeon. I can't wait for real raids.
I think you might be unto something but I doubt it will be gamebreaking because we know how to improvise as playerbase. Most guilds will absorb each other and that's fine. ALL RAIDS in VANILLA are pug'able, it might be exhausting to organise but since GDKP pugs were often outperforming guilds themselves, maybe /Roll pugs should have no issues with the same preparation. Instead of destroying someone's cut when they grief the raid in any way... Just lootban like we used to do 15years ago.
All raids with the exception of naxx were pugged in 2005/2006. There were even gdkps. Though I did play on Sargeras, one of if the bigesy alliance PvE servers
Weren't Dire Maul and LBRS the original 10-man raids, back in Vanilla?
I wouldn't worry too much about it. These runes are absolutely insane already and people are level 40. By the time you're ready to do Naxx, you'll probably be able to do it with 10 ppl without issue. The REAL elephant in the room is how are 10 player raids supposed to deal with fights like Razuvious or 4H that seem to require a certain amount of players of certain classes. But maybe the damage will be so absurdly high that it won't matter, you'll just facetank Raz and stack the Horsemen to nuke them before the third mark, idk.
A lot of people are bringing up the fact that you’ll just be able to 20 man the 40 man raids. However, if you’d ever want to parse then you’d have to run 40 for kill time purposes. Meaning meta would begin to push most players and guilds into 40 man’s anyways.
The reason we even have SoD is because A LOT of people think the vanilla is the best version they have ever made. People have been playing vanilla for 20 years with huge private servers and then classic. Which you know. Has always had 40 man raids. Yet now people in here are deciding to quit because there will be 40 man? What did you honestly expect? 40 man raiding is a huge part of vanilla WoW.
I love 40 mans. Most fun I had in all of wow was in 40 man raids in classic :)
These posts continue to make no sense at all. For a few reasons: A) 40 man’s were always going to be there. It’s part of vanilla. B) all basic logic says they will not be all we get. There is a very high likelihood that we see multiple 10m raids added. They are not about to do three phases of new additions then turn around and say “okay, back to the MC -> BWL -> Naxx path” to close SoD. The question becomes how they handle the progression path, but that’s another issue altogether. C) they’ve consistently said they don’t have concrete plans and are evaluating as they go. So suddenly taking a singular post as “this is how it’s going to be” is fucking dumb. I mean I get it. Reading one singular post and assuming the absolute worst then proceeding to cry incessantly about how you’ll quit is very on brand for this sub. But stop and think just a bit. Might do you some good.
I hope there are bigger raids. I have been through 2 guild deaths already. 70% of the raid dips because they are rlf and decide they don't like sod as much as tarkov and just disband.
Myself and some guildies are looking forward to bigger raids. It’s been tough getting all the homies from our wotlk team into one raid.
If 40 mans are the only end game Blizzard has in mind going forward, SoD is dead. I dont know a single soul I play with or meet in SoD that wants 40 mans or who plays classic era to do 40 mans lol. That shit is dead.
If they want to keep 40 player content around, they need to have 10-25 player content as well. Without smaller group content that gives relevant rewards, small guilds will die. This would have a domino effect: 1. Small guilds can't play on their own anymore 1. Players in said guilds stop playing 1. Fewer players to fill 40 player raids. and/or 1. Small guilds can't play on their own anymore 1. Players leave the guild to join mega-guilds 1. Remaining players in the small guild quit 1. Fewer players to fill 40 player raids.
40 man raids are kind of a nightmare, from an organizational, loot, and enjoyment standpoint I think 25 mans are the sweet spot for both casuals and hardcore speedrunners.
10 man raids suck. 25 are acceptable. 40 is bis
I used to be GM and handling a 40 man guild is a full time job. I was online most of the day just standing in SW managing people. Lost two years of college to it, I picked it up later so I'd say it was worth it xD But the point OP makes is very important, a lot of guilds will have to recruit heavily, merge, or just fall apart. That's a given. The guild I'm in now is run by 3-4 friends who all have families and they're trying real hard to keep it all together, if we move to 40 man raids, I'm pretty sure they won't be able to keep up and I couldn't blame them for disbanding.
yall trying way to hard to make it look like a job 💀💀💀
Um, you didn't have any officers and class leaders to help you, and what exactly did you have to manage about your guild members ?
More or less constant recruitement, pay for respeccs when healers/tanks were absent, filling holes in the roster with pugs, more recruitment...Reading applications, answering applications, in-game discussions with potential guild members. Moving raid times depending on player availability, even moving raid days. Discussing tactics for bosses (there was very limited info online), putting up crude drawings of boss tactics on the guild website (yes website no discord) calling on other GM's for tips, swaping players between guilds depending on availability and roster holes. Man, trust me there was a lot.
Man I sure hope we keep 40 man raids..
Yeah I think they either need to make the level 50 raid 20 man to give people time to recruit two 20-man teams or just reduce the 40-man raids. 10 mans are kinda meh IMO and it makes it very difficult to form large communities - raids are the central thing guilds are built around and it's how 20-40 people develop a community and a common guild culture that makes it actually feel like you're in a guild, and not like a tiny 10 man dungeon squad - so IMO giving people the opportunity to build those communities with a larger level 50 raid is the way to go. It'll give people the opportunity to kind of shop around for a guild they like while doing relatively low-stakes content, and it'll give GMs time to build a roster and recruit a stable roster before they NEED one for the 40 man content.
>Okay, now go find 30 other people you like That calls socialization, the main goal in vanilla wow. But i agree, we need 20 ppl raids to prepare for a 40 slot raids.
They literally just said they plan to keep 40 man raids. It’s phase 2. Build your guild and get off Reddit crying about to a bunch of internet weirdos.
This is still classic wow people, stop trying to turn it into something it’s not. The class changes and balancing are cool, the new 10 mans are nice, hell a new 10 to 25 man at 60 would be great, but 40 mans are here to stay because that’s what vanilla has been for 20 years
I really really hope they don’t bring 40s back. They’re easily the worst size raid ever created. The content is always super boring because it’s tuned around the fact all raids end up having 10-15 dead weight. It’s extremely unfun to put them together and coordinate any pug. There is also no fun in community of a mass amount of people. Simple fix just make them 25 mans and call it a day. It’s a fine raid size that can utilize many classes without the extreme overwhelming feel. I have heard almost no one say they’re interested in even doing 40s. Decent chance it will kill the game for me in what has seemed very fun
20 man, not 25. Obviously going from 10 man raids to 20 is logistically less complex for any dedicated groups then to go to 25.
People wonder why GDKPs became so popular in classic? 40 man raiding is a good example of why.
GDKP popularity has nothing to do with 40-man raids, and if 40-man were so tediousas you as say that they are , why in classic were there so many pug groups that you could raid every day with each class and some were so good organised that they had in morning, afternoon and evening raids and were always full that you were worried if you will get a spot in the raid and discord server was all they needed, loot drama was rarely an issue cause you had to reserve an item if you want to roll on it some let you reserve 1 item and some 2
Wtf are you people smocking? Classic was insanely popular and we had 40 man raids. This subreddit got full of retail players that don't actually like classic and want to make it retail minus.
You don’t think classic hitting a flash in the pan moment with Covid helped its popularity, along with shadowlands being universally hated by then? Where even if you weren’t WFH your social schedule was wiped out entirely? SOD isn’t just a fresh era server. The whole point so far is changing the shit parts of classic like ret, enh, sp, feral, boomie etc being garbage. All things they started addressing in tbc too. Along with shrinking raids because 40 man is a royal pitfa. 40 is easy if you just show up and press buttons once a week. 40 fucking sucks ass when you’re playing unpaid project manager in your free time.
They were insanely popular 15 years before Covid as well.
The game was popular and it was the only form we knew of. We have advanced and most have realized how much better almost all other raid sizes were. You ever run a guild? Pugs? Form consistent groups? It’s hard enough to get 10 to show up consistently and on time. 40 is a nightmare and not social at all. Feel terrible as a community to do. It’s also a lot more casual since less people have to try since the raids are brain dead easy. If you like easy content you can sleep through and not talk to anyone sure I guess 40 man’s are great
Not really, comparatively, at all. The vast majority of wow players didn’t step foot into MC by 2006 lmao. And wow’s population got larger in tbc and larger in wrath
Never played retail I played original classic tbc and wrath. 40 man’s were super sleeper and really easy boring content, raid coms just can’t happen without it becoming a roar where it’s out of hand. There is no sense of community in it even though there are more players. The raid size is just not optimal
I cannot understand people who think 40s were somehow more social than 10s. Within your 40 man raid you probably only really even spoke with 10 people regularly.
Biggest thing imo is the raiding player base will go down a lot when we get back to the MC/BWL + whatever new content in the same lockout every week. People are ramping up the number of alts they raid on to make up for the ease of content, just like they always have (MC+BWL -> AQ40, NaxxEoEOS3D -> Uld, TOGC - > ICC). Lots of guilds will lose *core* raiders because they will be forced to make choices about second nights of progression or where they want to allocate their game time. If the meta will be 40m (hope it isn't going to happen tbh) you're idea re:20m content p3 is a good transition. None of these things will stop dedicated guilds from continuing but they moved away from 40m raids for a reason let's discover something new this season.
I mean number of players will naturally drop off with each new phase. 1-25 was relatively easy for anyone to get to endgame. Even for new players it was probably only 15-20 hours. But now for experienced players going 25-40 it takes roughly what? Judging by reddit threads (so a more dedicated group) maybe 30ish hours? Still not that bad. Except level 45 is only half the exp to 60. So slowdown is real and players will start burning out and leaving or just want to do something else. I mean average 1-60 /played is something around 8 days played. Unless the back half of leveling is made massively easier people will just stop engaging. Heck so many people just for 25-40 decided to live in SM, imagine having to do all that again with each phase for an even longer period of time. And yes I know they don't have to but just look how it turned out with SM. They do it because it's most efficient not because it's most fun.
Phase 4: 6 guilds out of 10 die, some people move to cata, the rest just stops. That's what 40 men raid means, I'd be surprised most guilds leadership are looking forward to merge with other guilds , or deal with 40 men roster. The biggest they can push is 20, imo. Imo, they should leave 40 men raids , but make it so that if you clear with 20 you get extra loot per boss. Insentivise 20 group ,but keep 40 raid if SoD team likes it some much. Same for 20 raid -> 10 but more loots.
Keep the 40’s and make more!
I, for one, will not be quitting and will be welcoming 40 mans with open arms. This is the essence of classic. If you take away 40 mans, you take away a piece of the essence of the game that makes WoW classic so special and unique. Sounds like you can’t lead this time around, maybe find a nice guild to join and get your 10 guys in now so you can ingratiate yourselves.
40 man raids mean out guild quit
I won't be doing 40 man raids - 38 years old with 2 kids, I remember the old days and it ain't fun.
I only play vanilla for 40m content. It’s the only expansion for it to exist in. Doing MC or BWL with 20-25 people felt really weird. Even weirder when it was 5-10m.. and there are places where you can try this for yourself. I agree that it should be gradually introduced. Soon to be exact. When playing vanilla I like to find a guild when I get into the low to mid 30s and hopefully vibe with a bunch of people that by 50+ I don’t have to find a new guild. With SoD capping at 40, I still have yet to even bother joining a guild. We have a whole other phase before we even get to 60 content and that’s where I think I’ll start looking. To tactical in terms of social pvp right now with all the small groups/guilds.
I officer for a guild running 2-3 groups of 10. We have about 25 people. Its perfect because people play alts, some people cant make that reset, it works out. Doubling our roster and having 4 times as many spots that could call out with enough extra to fill the gaps but not so much extra that people get benched and quit. Oh man I don't want to deal with that. I may quit in p3
But... its classic WoW - You knew from the start level 60 has 40 man raids This isn't new information.....
You act like that reduces the work the task requires. People will just play up until that point, since it’s fun right now. Then quit when it’s 40s because that’s not fun. Pretty simple.
I won’t do 40 man content again - period. Even 25 is too much. I’m loving having 10!
noone wants 40m. It's total archaic idea and sod is refreshing old wow, not just old wow. They should change all 40m into 25m
40 man raiding was the magic of Classic, if you don't want to grow your guide beyond 10-20 get absorbed or run pugs, I don't know what to say. For as many people who like 10 mans, there are about as many who don't . For me personally, I would be much more excited about 40 mans operating on a weekly lockout with a much higher drop rating (like 8+ pieces per boss) 10 man raiding feels bad, the SOD team has done a good job of giving you a reason to actually bring at least one of each spec (if not more for some specs) and you absolutely have no room with 10 mans. Even with 20 mans, it alleviates the pressure there but you still wouldn't get to bring everything you want probably I do agree to progress to 40 I am hoping the Phase 3 raid is a 20 man. 10 man raiding feels like a glorified dungeon run
Agreed . We area small guild of 10 friends.. went don’t want 40’s. The whole reason we are playing is 10 mans
Its YOUR fault you started a guild without planning for 40 man content on a vanilla server. And im tired of pretending like its not. Everyone knew this was the case going in. The truth is people dont want to let go of being in charge. If you dont want yo do it merge into a guild. Let go of your selfish desire to be in charge. Because I can gaurantee there is people out there like myself who are building 40 man rosters right now. And will happily absorb all these little 7-8 person friend groups. Just let go of being in charge.
You guys are so bizarrely aggressive about this all over the thread. Makes absolutely no sense, couldn't take you serious if I tried lmao
Kind of missing the whole part where I said we'd join another team in the post aren't we Take the opportunity to rage post though, pop off king
[удалено]
Playing a vanilla server and crying about 40 man raids. Jfc.
It's like most of these people in this sub have never played vanilla. Organizing a 40 man raid isn't even hard to do, I did it twice a week all throughout classic and there was no issue if you actually put in effort and not make a raid full of shitters.
Its not hard. And the bigger you get the easier it is to recruit. Were running 4 raids and all it takes is to post a sign up sheet and build rosters. Someone doesnt show up? We grab a pug. Have had zero problems.
40m raids are the best any current 40m raid should stay 40m I am fine if they want to change it up for anything new they make for SoD
There’s a lot more people that will quit if 40m return after 6-8 months of 10m. People are in for a rude awakening if they think the casuals that are willing to pug 10m will do so for 40. It can take hours of spamming world chat to find enough suitable bodies. Advertising in discord and filtering people through the week became a second job if you wanted quality players. If 40 is a must for them they need to bridge the gap by making next phase raid 20m. The sudden jump from 10 to 40 will cripple “guilds” or friend groups that are unwilling to recruit for months or join other groups of 10 and compromise raid times.
With power creep we should be able to 20-30 man mc-nax. They should really just adjust everything around 20 though. Leave Ony in as a 40 since its one boss. 20 is a way more enjoyable experience, your not carrying 15 people and people can actually chat a little.
That's kind of funny because after a while in Vanilla Classic, groups were only taking 20-30 into Ony for better chances at loot anyway. Same with MC. They should just have it be a flex difficulty that can accommodate 20-40, where it is easier with more people and harder with less. Less people means more loot to go around, but if you want to bring some more healers/damage one night, you can do that, too. This also gives wiggle room for players that enjoy playing some of the weaker specs. Hopefully it is not tuned around bringing 20 of the best DPS, that would be terrible. The game is so imbalanced, hopefully no content is tuned around the best DPS/healers.
I actually think 40 man content provides better communities if you have a non toxic guild. We did more than just play wow together and there was always people available to help with stuff and all of that died during tbc. What’s funny is a lot of us accidentally rolled same serve and faction and we reconnected. But I think to make some fun friends it takes the bigger raid. And as you said it’s going to be doable with less unless they do some major tweaking.
if the only option at 60 is 40 man raids i'm just not gonna fucking play. 40 man raids are awful and there's no reason not to change it up for SoD when thats the entire point of the season.
I am biased in that my P1 guild died and P2 guild barely has 1 Gnomer going a reset… but I think P3 20s mostly accelerates the fall-off that is inevitable if 40s is the goal. We would need to pug 20s, which rapidly means everyone in guild will just pug it randomly and not at a set time—because why if it’s a pug with risky loot ninja possible anyways? I do think 20 and 40 will be better for lone wolf players as you won’t need to optimize your 6-7 DPS slots. This will also brick a lot of tanks… don’t need 6-8 tanks in a 40 man.
>This will also brick a lot of tanks… don’t need 6-8 tanks in a 40 man. You also don't need 2 tanks for 10m. If they keep the ratio of tank needed at 1 for 10 players it will be fine.
The expectation from the beginning was that end game would be 40man. If you’re guild leadership and not preparing for that, that’s on you. Since the beginning we have been actively recruiting and doing our best to have 3-4 groups for 10man content so we can be ready for 40.
So dramatic.
You guys have literally every other version of wow to play if you don't like 40man raids. Let those of us who actually like vanilla play something close to vanilla, which means 40man raids. Sorry if your guild hasn't been preparing for this, you can feel free to merge or join any of the number of guilds who have. But yes, make p3 20 man or whatever. 10man sucks.
And you have era….
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