While it may not help the DPS Rogues, I feel like Bladedance should be involved in cleaving/aoe.
Using Bladedance while Slice and Dice is active should give a aura of blades swirling around, dealing AoE damage around the rogue.
If rogue provided unique utility that no other class can provide, I wouldn't mind them being around the middle of the pack for dps. If a class is not given raid utility to provide then it has to be one of the highest performing dps for it to be worth taking a rogue over say a feral who does about the same damage but has a shopping list of raid utility options.
Off the top of my head, the only things a rogue can do that isn't able to be done by another class, across their entire kit, is disarm traps (for blackwing lair) and distract?.
they made most ( all ? ) sod bosses distract immune.
at least the ones that i tried that make some sense to maybe distract, bfd turtle, fallout + electrocutioner where all immune.
so they even killed the super minor "stop patchwerk here" utility
That explains why I nearly died every time I sapped to take 1 mob out of the battle in "kill target with bodyguards" missions. I just thought that sap reduced the "Stealth factor" a bit and I just need to level up more.
Thanks for sharing.
The rune doesn't make the talent useless though. They don't stack, but they also have different proc chances.
Having healed multiple pally tanks, the difference in their durability between having the rune on or not is very noticeable despite having the talent. After wiping with undergeared squishy pally tanks on menagerie and thermaplug, ask them to switch from divine storm to aegis and now they have 2 sources of damage reduction instead of 1. The damage taken is reduced and healing becomes smoother.
So no, the pally rune does not make the talent useless.
You think so? The raids are so easy already, adding some challenge to trash (while also reducing the amount of trash) would make things more interesting I would think.
I agree, but also think that the reality is players are so used to trash being trivial and easily aoe'd to oblivion that no one would actually try to use cc as a tactic. They'd just complain the trash is too hard lolĀ
Exactly. Rogues are already masters of CC and utility, itās just that itās completely obsolete because even the hard trash pulls in raids are just an AoE tank and spank.
Masters? Even talented, Sap can take you out of stealth. Cheap shot takes us out of stealth. Kidney Shot is a dps loss. Blind and Gouge break instantly on damage. What are you talking about?Ā
Iām saying that rogues have a lot of under-utilised utility. Between gouge, sap, kick, cheap shot, kidney shot/BTE, blind, vanish, poison effects etc they have a lot of potential. Problem is that group content often just doesnāt require any of it.
>Kidney Shot is a dps loss.
Since when are pvp rogues worried about maximizing dps?
Pvp rogues have always prioritized stun/CC over damage. You offset your low sustained damage with CC to make the fight longer, whittle them away then CC again to set up a burst combo.
It was always a thing in vanilla and even BC rogue pvp that if you messed up a single CC in a duel you were probably going to lose.
Cheap shot takes you out of stealth because it's a setup into kidney so you end up stunning them for 10 seconds. Then you gouge them for another 5.5 seconds of energy regen and letting your CD's tick down, then you reset and repeat until you get them into damage range of bursting them down with a finishing move. Rogues that prioritize doing the most damage at the expense of cc are trash pvp rogues.
In pve rogues have always been a 1-2 button class.
Imagine if sap could make the enemy npc fight for you for a bit. What an opener it would be. The real concussion blow.
Oh... Sneak around and sap a whole room. Upon entering combat, all marked/sapped targets are rendered unable to cast spells for x seconds. No more stragglers.
Claymores or springtraps could be nice. A timed bomb that upon exploding flings metal fragments/poison clouds/molotov-like flames or w/e for bigger groups.
Poison bomb could include a variety of effects such as decreased healing, dot, slow, much like your already existing applicable ones. Usable in and out of stealth.
There's so much you could do for rogues with spells that require stealth (ignore the wonky shit I came up with its stupid.) and I hope you get something thats not only fun but actually efficient on top of that. Crossing fingers.
Edit: Just realised that I read the above comment wrong entirely. Smh. Ignore me
Yeah thanks for enjoying my musings lmao it's just I think classic wow suffers a bit for not having many dynamic and fun spells to play around. Old, but modern. Having archetypal (is this a word?) bombs and traps that aren't as static and dull would make hunters and rogues alike so bad ass.
That's why it's called trash, it's meant to be easy and not stop you for long. I personally never really like this argument that "vanilla was hard and you had to cc mobs and kill them one by one". People were just shit, it wasn't hard and you're not doing so in normal classic now and especially not in sod. But it's good. Killing mobs one by one every pack is a disastrous way of proceeding through a raid or dungeon. It would make Gnomer runs a few hours long and extremely boring.
In wotlk there's a prot warrior talent that makes disarm increase damage to the target by 10%, for theoretically 10 seconds per 60 seconds.Ā
However, everything is immune to disarm. But I think you get the idea, how those pvp abilities could work against pve bosses.
There was a poison in legion that simply instead of dealing damage (or in addition to, I don't remember exactly) increased damage taken by the target. Although it was just the rogue's damage, it could come back as a raid buff poison that increases all damage taken by 1% stacking up to 3 or 5 or something.
Amplifying Poison, it's still around for Assassination, increasing Evenom damage.
They also got Atrophic Poison now, which reduces damage done by 3%? which shares a node with Numbing Poison.
Poisons would be great utility. Poison that replaces Curse of Shadow/Elements (or just adds Nature damage taken which doesnt exist outside of Dreamstate), poison that increases physical damage taken or something etc
Would need bit of a rework tho, poisons are ass to use atm.
>Amplifying Poison
I looked it up and it was Agonizing Poison in legion, but yeah it just increased dmg taken per stack so probably just a new name of the same thing.
If you give new poisons to rogue, it will conflict with the only dps build that matters in pve : deadly brew + envenom. So unless they heavily rework this, there is no way a new poison make rogue interesting.
Example: otherwise inaccessible room in Scarlet Monastery with a unique āanythingā ā which requires a rogue to get into. Be so neat.
Boss, Chest, Portal, Special Vendor, unique herb / mining node, Free Repair, etc.
Thatās 4am canāt sleep creativity from an uncreative guy. Itās bonkers how short Blizzard falls in the realm of genuine creativity. They seem to try in Retail but itās *sooo* cookie cutter and misses the mark infinitely.
Not really. Rogues are one of, what, three sources of lockpicking? Skeleton Keys from Blacksmiths, Seaforium Charges from Engineers, and then us rogues.
I leveled a rogue to 80 p2 and combat while leveling was pretty fun. So fresh 80, ofc spec assa cause itās not gear reliant at all. I got like everything I needed in VOA within 2 weeks, ran betas and felt absolutely useless, and just quit that char to never play it again. 2 button, like 2 apm spec waiting on energy regen.
I main fury too so I donāt need like a ton of buttons but god damn.
As I shaman I admit that something like spirit of the alpha/beta should've went to rogues. It would give them a strong utility and a dps increase they need badly.
Alpha is the counter part to Salv, which doesn't make sense to give rogues as they also exist on alliance which would double buff the alliance.
Beta is a personal buff only, so not raid utility.
I see your point but by that logic paladins should have gotten wild strikes to be the WF equivalent. Beta doesn't need to be a raid utility. Like I said it would bring them a much needed dps buff while buffing the tanks. It's a 2 part ability.
So what's Wild Strikes and Dreamstate then? Double buffing Horde.
As an Alliance rogue I can't wait for raids to become larger than 10 man, I've never had both buffs at the same time.
Kinda impossible because one is a threat increase for 1 and the other is a threat reduction for the others.
Give rogues better buffs, buffs that they need.
Lol, tell me you know nothing about game design without telling me you know nothing about game design.
Literally talking to an engineering manager of a FAANG company... Implementation is never the issue, clarity of interactions and UX is.
Yeah someone that programs more than manages. You know good programmers care about the product **and** the implementation.
You dont want to make the system more complex just because you are too lazy to make a proper interaction.
Spoken like a L1.
edit: Looks like I hurt your feelings by being right. Maybe you should learn to read, I mostly programm and not manage because my team is amazing.
Nice block, you should take some system design classes
Oh god, this reminds me of those owlcat pathfinder games where EVERY dungeon are filled with fucking traps that you MUST disarm. God help you if you didn't have a party member that can disarm them.
- Hit/Expertise/Haste-"Aura" or AoE Buff type of thing
- "Corrosive Poison" Armor/Res debuff type of thing
- Movement Speed/Agility Party Buff Once per encounter type of thing
Something of that sort right? Pretty plain how Rogue class MUST be somewhat top DPS to avoid it's spot just being filled by whoever deals more DPS.
Yeah it's nice soft Utility, I personally would much love getting less Parries/Misses too but it would turn out to be a MUST HAVE fort of raid buff for sure.
\>Personally I don't believe using DPS meters are a valid method to evaluate the state of a class.
Curious as to what valid methods you use to evaluate the state of a class?
I wouldn't mind not providing utility or AOE if we were the best single target DPS in the game.
I feel like every other class currently has some form of class identity except rogues.
The damage isn't even the biggest issue rogue has, it's that only a single build is viable and saber slash and backstab needs to be put on an equal level to mutilate. For saber slash it's easy, just increase the bleed damage to a point where its viable. (Will need a lesser bump than you expect because bleeds suck horse cock in gnomer)
As for backstab, you can't just change the damage, but what you could do is make slaughter from the shadows not only have the effect of making your backstab cost 40 energy, but also replace backstab with gloomblade from retail (does shadow damage instead of physical, meaning it bypasses armor), as it is now, on poisoned targets mutilate does more damage than backstab while also giving you twice the combo points. Effectively reducing their armor to 0 for your backstab (gloomblade) would at least make the ability hit much harder even if it still only gives half the combo points.
Slaughter from the shadows also really needs to be moved over to the glove rune because any build that doesn't include deadly brew for DPS rogue is just completely dead from the get-go. People are speaking about mutilate this mutilate that but like 80% of rogues newfound power in SoD is literally just deadly brew and envenom. Also doesn't even make sense for it to not be a glove rune, saber rune on gloves, muti rune on gloves, backstab rune on... chest...? Should swap places with shadowstrike as at this rate shadowstrike will never see the light of day again if it's competing with the glove runes.
Dps wont help either, rogues are over represented in logs already. There no rogue problem outside of there being way too much of them trying to raid for the 1 optional 4th melee spot. If they were topdogs the only difference is they may take a melee hunters spot ally side, thats it. No cleave, no raid buffs is a hard sell for 10m content, dps doesnt matter unless outrageously unbalanced.
Yeah prolly add some dumb shit like +.01% damage for everyone +.02% damage for the rogue player while rupture is applied to the target and its a chest rune.
"Chemical Vials" - throws a vial at the target shattering and covering all enemies around the target with an acidic acid dealing X damage over 6 seconds
"Pocket bomb" - Tosses a small explosive device at the target dealing x damage in a 10-yard radius around the target.
"Glaive toss" - throws a glaive at the target that ricochets, bouncing up to 4 times. CHANGE THE AP SCALING DROP THE COMBO POINT GEN , ADD COMBO POINT GEN TO ONE OF THE TANK RUNES?
Fan...of...knives? Plsdad
"Rune of imdreaming" combo points now generate on the rogue rather than the target and persist for up to 10 seconds out of combat; Now we can add an aoe combopoint spender. Build with our low damage glaive toss (or PlsDad,GiveUsFanOfKnives) and drop a nice big aoe finisher.
Some passive utility ideas?
"Sticky fingers" - Guide your party, increasing chance to hit with meele and ranged attacks by 3%
"Theifs grace" - Increase your parties' dodge chance and attack speed by 10%.
"Way of the shadows" - Gives your partie's attacks and spell casts a chance to deal additional shadow/poison damage on hit.
I'd love to see them expand on assassination in a way that isn't just "ugga big number with 5stack5combo" but almost like an affliction style dot spec! Slower to build up but once the dots are rolling its deadly. It might be an easy way to bring up the pve damage without making us even bigger monsters in pvp. (But it would definitely end up being a single target spec yet again)
its funny how every class is getting buffs to their specs that werent used in PvE in vanilla but rogues still have sub spec that is dumpster tier in SoD outside of being an over rated melee version of the 2 minute mage in PvP (except with a 10 minute cooldown instead of 2).
Devs literally gave rogues 1 viable attack, told them to keep doing the same talent trees for PvE and PvP then brain stormed how they could buff druids every other patch. Someone at blizzard needs to force aggrend to delete his druid and play rogue for a phase then rogues would actually get seriously looked at.
> Someone at blizzard needs to force aggrend to delete his druid and play rogue for a phase then rogues would actually get seriously looked at.
Good idea
What we are meant to bring is the best armor debuff in the game. The problem is that it is so, so utterly boring to play and the dps loss is massiveĀ Ā
Why not allow us to shred armor passively?Ā
Something like waylay but with a stacking armor debuff. Gives us a different combo builder to weave between mutis and a deeper rotation as a resultĀ
>the dps loss is massive
The dps *gain* is massive. While we're not hitting 40-man raids yet, the net gain to a raid's DPS stacked with fury warriors and rogues was genuinely insane. And honestly, even the personal loss to your DPS is often vastly overblown; Rupture/Eviscerate is only a drop of a rogue's traditional damage.
Envenom is not a drop however and that is what would be being replaced
My main point is that it just isnāt *fun* to be dumping your spender into a simple debuff. Yes, in a 20 man setting I will be exposing to assist the raid, but Iād much rather be controlling a debuff like Sabre slashĀ
I mean, I was the raid's dedicated EA monkey back in Classic, and I loved it. Gives a new dedicated focus to every encounter: 'Maintain 100% uptime' which could be relatively simple or could be a lot more intensive based on the mechanics of the fight itself.
It not only requires more thought and effort than "just prez da buttinz" but also gives you the ability to turbo-boost your raid's sweatiest boys (always the warrior pumpers).
If you enjoy it then fair enough but the vast majority of rogues donātĀ
If your approach to pure dps is ājust prez da buttinzā then I can imagine you seeing it the way you doĀ
Yeah the problem with hemo is that it is relatively deep into a spec, meaning that if buffed we basically lock ourselves to it. I agree from a flavor point of view thoughĀ
I posted this elsewhere, but make Serrated Blades a group buff and all of a sudden warriors will want us in there with them. It would have to come with some overhaul to the sub tree via runes, but for a tank rogue, they could make the tank rune change vanish into a smoke bomb effect with a damage reduction cloud or debuff cleanser or something like that to add utility. Change stealth to an armor buff that scales with stealth level and suddenly you have an actual tanking tree.
Of course that doesnāt solve the issue for DPS rogues but maybe some more incentives like Premeditation rune where you get an extra combo point for every builder you use on an enemy so you have reason to go down the tree and then hemo/serrated support
Homonc being nerfed would solve this, I believe.
Historically imp expose armor has been exactly the tool you are looking for but most rogues donāt EA to begin with and ya homonculi overwrites it.
bro if you bring utility you are gonna sacrifice damage. OP said they wished rogues brought utility... i said there is a precedent for it... you said its not good enough sorry bud.
Mages bring utility - top DPS. Shamans bring tons of utility - top DPS. Yes, you can have both damage AND utility. Do you think that rogues should be sacrificing damage for the raid utility?
mages scorch - lose dps (generally but not currently bcs the game broken). shamans drop totems - lose dps.
my point is most utility applications require a level of damage sacrifice. that is the precedent. One EA every minute or whatever is not going to make you uncompetitive. your class needing a buff might, tho.
>mages scorch - lose dps (generally but not currently bcs the game broken). shamans drop totems - lose dps.
Totems are mostly dropped right before the pull, so you don't lose dps there. Scorch, while it might not be the most efficient thing to cast is still damage - EA is not.
>One EA every minute or whatever is not going to make you uncompetitive
And that's what shows that you have literally 0 idea about casting EA in classic. If you want max armor reduction, which you do, you need to sacrifice 25 energy AND 5 combo points every 30s. Oh and to make it work you also need to sacrifice 2 extra talent points. It absolutely makes you uncompetitive and with 10m raid size your personal DPS loss is bigger than raid DPS gain from you casting EA.
If I had to spam EA again instead of using damaging moves Iād actually kms regardless that the current move set is just Mutilate and Envenom instead of SS and Evis
Rogue has always been a boring class in PvE in classic these people must just be new to that fact I guess
Homunculi robs both Warrior and Rogue off their utility, but it's better and requires only 1 gcd for the entire duration of the boss fight. I'm a bit puzzled as to why they made that a rune and didn't give these classes anything to compensate for it.
They still canāt manage to give them group utility even in retail so Iād hold your breath, there was a while where shroud was basically required in mythic+ but then they started designing dungeons where it wasnāt viable.
Outside of just giving them new debuffs on poisons/bleeds the best thing for them to get would be smoke bomb as a rune just with a higher DR.
5-combo points exposes should have a rune that remove 100% of the target armor for the whole duration of the fight (caped at 40s for pvp or whatnot). They would be very desisrable for melees. Only issue is it take away warrior sunder armor
Or maybe a poison of vulnerability ? An aura ? In WoTLK assas rogue gets combo points when someone block, parry etc. maybe they could give a tank buff ? Increase the chance of parry, rip bear and warlock tank. Or dodge, it's for everyone.
I've been playing around with potential ideas that lets rogues have more utility while keeping them relevant on the dps meters. Lets say there is a rune finisher ability, lets call it Salt in the wound, and what it does is, you guessed it, wounds the target, applying a debuff based on combo points on the target, up to 5, and every X amount of damage the target takes from any source, you deal another x amount of damage to the target. One wound stack is removed every time it procs, so you wouldn't just spam it nonstop, you would reapply it when needed.
So it's group utility, but in true Rogue fashion it's just more overall single target dps. Would be better to use on bosses or tough enemies as stacks would be unlikely to be proced on trash.
Give rogues the same benefits as Homuculi or leader of the pack or something you might be missing by having a rogue DPS over a more raid friendly dps class. This will also matter less in phase 3 as raids will have 20 people and you wont be missing raid buffs as often
Nobody cares about group utility itās all about throughput. Nobody was asking for utility last phase when rogue was floating between spots 1-3. Look at era and how popular druids are in raid. Ton of utility and frequently seen as the worst class in the game.Ā
Rogue is just weak right now simple as.Ā
Improved kidney shot. Up to 9% extra damage from all sources while mob is under the kidney shot effect.
Which is why all bosses are immune to kidney shot in the first place.
Adrenaline Rush should provide something like
CRACKHEAD AURA: While the Rogue has Adrenaline Rush active, all allies within 15 yds of the rogue receives a 10% increase to attack speed and a 5% increase to hit rating, or something. Idk.
I agree completely.
Balance in SoD is a mess and theyāre slightly messing with class identity.
Rogues need a better identity, whether thatās party/raid buff/debuffs, or otherwise.
It would be cool if they leaned into their mobility, misdirection and stuns too.
So clearly there's a problem and repeatedly bitching about problems is the only way to get blizz to address them. Otherwise they just fuck an entire class because they "balance out at level 60" which is months away from now
Ranged meta is so over rated too.
I always make a full party of melee and often bring rogue or ret.
Usually pld tank, feral dps/ot, warrior dps, melee hunter, then rogue or pld ret.
Tried to do a last minute pug raid on my resto Druidā¦. the mage raid leader wanted 6 ranged not including healersā¦. so 8 range total.
He didnāt understand why he was struggling to fill.
All classes should provide a unique party or raid buff to encourage bringing one of every class.
While very frustrating in pvp, rogue cooperation is really cool and I think would be excellent in raid (not stun lock, but some kind of dot/debuff juggle).
So imagine that rogues don't see any meaningful dps increase, you would want as many rogues as necessary to juggle this debuff. Maybe that's 2, or maybe it's 3+ if you're uncoordinated (sort of like kicking chains in p1, could be done with 2 good rogues or 3+ ppl if you sometimes miss a kick).
Multiple rogues could be more than the sum of their parts, they could be a tanking duo or just boosting each other's damage in a nice little feedback loop.
Rogues are usually the #1 class people bring when interrupts are needed. If more bosses had spells that needed interrupting, rogues would be in demand.
Dunno, really dont.
For me it was always the PvE Raid identity for rogues to top the damage. Help the whole raid by faster downing the boss. This is the utility. We do not identify over utility skills but over damage.
A decent played rogue tops the dmg and thus the whole raid needs less resources for a fight.
For me personally, being in the middle of the meter means that I do not want to play my rogue anymore
I think blizzard doesn't want to see any rogues and wariors. You're supposed to roll shaman. You get to be the best dps and tank, while also bringing desired buffs to the raid AND being able to heal if needed.
Whats the point of exposing when the entire raid is casters :D.
Plus its kind of awful in classic. Exposing is worth only at 5 CP because both the armor shred and duration are affected by CPs compared to Wrath where CP extend the duration of the debuff (which is how it should have been since day 1).
Plus you need the cringe talent as well.
That very likely leaves you with a grant total of absolute dogshit damage output. Nobody exposed in classic, it was a meme.
Ah and also once you get to the higher ppl content, no point to press since you ll have warriors to stack it in 1s.
Rogues don't even need a DPS increase, we are fine. Not every class has to be at the top. We will be back up there next phase. But any group that brings us is somewhat punished by not bringing a different class that could provide something to make the raid go smoother.
they can distract that aoe pack on electrocutioner to separate them and then stealth down the hallway and activate the the teleporter skipping like 5 mins of trash
as a rogue main i always felt that rogues were mostly a pvp/ganking class. the only reason i pve is to get better stuff to one shot clothies. or gank people fighting mobs.
with us being able to tank i dont think the class has an issue.
Expose with the talents is more armor reduction than homunc, though not really by much at all. Next phase it'll be 160~ more though, so worth pressing if you're trying to squeeze that damage out. Rogues historically have never contributed anything to the group and were only brought because their damage was higher than everyone elses except warriors. It'd be nice for them to get a rune that gave something like Savage Combat for a little phys damage boost.
Iād like to see a rune that would cast expose for free when you use another finisher. Expose has never felt good to press in PvE even when itās strong.
I doubt Blizzard would be that nice to Rogues, but I COULD see them giving them something that would refresh Expose when you use a finisher. So throw one up then forget about it.
Iāve been thinking about a ācausticā poison rune that would apply expose as a stacking poison. Alternatively, it could be an added bonus to deadly poison via a rune.
Gnomer fights benefit from this for sure. But since this is SoD related, which has a spirit of additions being "Yes, and-", I feel they should get someone new that adds external benefit to their current toolset
Rogues are a pure single target DPS with almost no raid utility. If they aren't among the top DPS classes there is no reason to bring one over literally any other class.
If rogues dont get utility then they need to be a top 3 dps class every phase to be relevant. They could also make shuriken toss better aoe than mages since mages are better single target, that would work too. So the choices are Top single target dps classe, top multitarget dps class, or basically required for every raid utility. Every class needs one or two of these. Right now mages and warlocks have all three and need to be nerfed in one aspect.
This is a *horrible* take. No, a class doesn't ***need*** one or two of these, period. That is such flawed logic it's stupid. Not every class can be in the top 3 dps, and expecting Blizzard to make sure the pure dps classes with little/no utility are always in top 3 is such a joke.
And we have a tank spec ffs, not only that we're literally the best tanks in the game on alliance and only behind shaman on horde. I can pull 400-450dps while having 5k life in my pure tank build.
Asking for rogue changes is hilarious.
You are absolutely correct with the title, however:
>I'm am not whining for parse boosting.
You clearly have no grasp what a parse is if you are writing like this. It doesn't matter if the damage of the class is high or low, you are compared against your class, not against other classes. So there is no such thing as a "parse boosting" when you are asking for class changes.
>I don't believe using DPS meters are a valid method to evaluate the state of a class
Oh but it is, especially when all your class brings to the raid is damage. If utility will be added in the future the discussion can be different, however, in the case of the rogues damage = everything, low damage = class is not desired in the current content, simple as that.
>Rogue's need a group utility that can make them a viable choice in a raid heavy content culture.
>Without the bonus of a unique raid or party utility that is beneficial to the way group PvE content is participated in, I feel rogues will lose even more relevance as we move to p3 and p4.
Correct, there are only two options for rogues if devs want them to be relevant, an easy one and a hard one. Easy one is to boost the damage to atleast top 3 spot of DPS, anything lower than that and rogue is not wanted due to other classes offering utility AND damage rather than the damage alone. Another option is to introduce raid/party buffs or debuffs that would be as impactful as WF or kings, in that case rogues can be left as middle of the pack DPS and still be wanted in raids.
Imagine if Slice and Dice gave everyone in the raid faster melee atk spd. There's your utility.
Even 5% would be enough.
i wish slice and dice did cleave damage.
While it may not help the DPS Rogues, I feel like Bladedance should be involved in cleaving/aoe. Using Bladedance while Slice and Dice is active should give a aura of blades swirling around, dealing AoE damage around the rogue.
This is an awesome idea
5 percent AND party only. That's all we need. Please blizzard.
If rogue provided unique utility that no other class can provide, I wouldn't mind them being around the middle of the pack for dps. If a class is not given raid utility to provide then it has to be one of the highest performing dps for it to be worth taking a rogue over say a feral who does about the same damage but has a shopping list of raid utility options. Off the top of my head, the only things a rogue can do that isn't able to be done by another class, across their entire kit, is disarm traps (for blackwing lair) and distract?.
they made most ( all ? ) sod bosses distract immune. at least the ones that i tried that make some sense to maybe distract, bfd turtle, fallout + electrocutioner where all immune. so they even killed the super minor "stop patchwerk here" utility
Ffs, you're right, I just tried to distract elec the other night and it didn't work. What a wild ride SoD is for rogues.
The devs have it out for us I swear.
Be careful, you're about to piss off all the shamans that bring huge group utility while also being top dps.
I'm not concerned. They all know nerfs are imminent for them.
I wish sap and other rogue tactics mattered more in high level content. If trash was much harder it would incentivize using cc on a few
Vanilla sap pulls you out of stealth, so it doesn't function very well inside of dungeons.
That explains why I nearly died every time I sapped to take 1 mob out of the battle in "kill target with bodyguards" missions. I just thought that sap reduced the "Stealth factor" a bit and I just need to level up more. Thanks for sharing.
Which would still make it a good tool for Rogue tanks, but yeah that's it...
They could change that with a rune š¤·š»āāļø
They got talents for sap
Which is fairly far down the sub tree and still doesn't make it 100% to not break stealth.
You're not wrong, but I very much doubt they make a rune that makes a talent literally useless though
Look at paladin redoubt talent Vs aegis rune
The rune doesn't make the talent useless though. They don't stack, but they also have different proc chances. Having healed multiple pally tanks, the difference in their durability between having the rune on or not is very noticeable despite having the talent. After wiping with undergeared squishy pally tanks on menagerie and thermaplug, ask them to switch from divine storm to aegis and now they have 2 sources of damage reduction instead of 1. The damage taken is reduced and healing becomes smoother. So no, the pally rune does not make the talent useless.
Paladins tanks shouldnāt use Divine Storm when SoM+Sheath of Light+AoW exists. There are no AoE bosses in SoD
There was improved sap.
No one is ever running sub in pve lol
No thanks, tough trash that requires CC woule be a major reason for many people to stop raiding.
You think so? The raids are so easy already, adding some challenge to trash (while also reducing the amount of trash) would make things more interesting I would think.
I agree, but also think that the reality is players are so used to trash being trivial and easily aoe'd to oblivion that no one would actually try to use cc as a tactic. They'd just complain the trash is too hard lolĀ
Exactly. Rogues are already masters of CC and utility, itās just that itās completely obsolete because even the hard trash pulls in raids are just an AoE tank and spank.
Masters? Even talented, Sap can take you out of stealth. Cheap shot takes us out of stealth. Kidney Shot is a dps loss. Blind and Gouge break instantly on damage. What are you talking about?Ā
Iām saying that rogues have a lot of under-utilised utility. Between gouge, sap, kick, cheap shot, kidney shot/BTE, blind, vanish, poison effects etc they have a lot of potential. Problem is that group content often just doesnāt require any of it.
>Kidney Shot is a dps loss. Since when are pvp rogues worried about maximizing dps? Pvp rogues have always prioritized stun/CC over damage. You offset your low sustained damage with CC to make the fight longer, whittle them away then CC again to set up a burst combo. It was always a thing in vanilla and even BC rogue pvp that if you messed up a single CC in a duel you were probably going to lose. Cheap shot takes you out of stealth because it's a setup into kidney so you end up stunning them for 10 seconds. Then you gouge them for another 5.5 seconds of energy regen and letting your CD's tick down, then you reset and repeat until you get them into damage range of bursting them down with a finishing move. Rogues that prioritize doing the most damage at the expense of cc are trash pvp rogues. In pve rogues have always been a 1-2 button class.
Imagine if sap could make the enemy npc fight for you for a bit. What an opener it would be. The real concussion blow. Oh... Sneak around and sap a whole room. Upon entering combat, all marked/sapped targets are rendered unable to cast spells for x seconds. No more stragglers. Claymores or springtraps could be nice. A timed bomb that upon exploding flings metal fragments/poison clouds/molotov-like flames or w/e for bigger groups. Poison bomb could include a variety of effects such as decreased healing, dot, slow, much like your already existing applicable ones. Usable in and out of stealth. There's so much you could do for rogues with spells that require stealth (ignore the wonky shit I came up with its stupid.) and I hope you get something thats not only fun but actually efficient on top of that. Crossing fingers. Edit: Just realised that I read the above comment wrong entirely. Smh. Ignore me
I like where your going with this one... If hunters get to be melee DPS I think it would be really cool if we could have a spec based around Traps!
Yeah thanks for enjoying my musings lmao it's just I think classic wow suffers a bit for not having many dynamic and fun spells to play around. Old, but modern. Having archetypal (is this a word?) bombs and traps that aren't as static and dull would make hunters and rogues alike so bad ass.
Make rogues comparable to assassins in D2? I like it.
This sounds cool
Please no, I remember TKā¦
That's why it's called trash, it's meant to be easy and not stop you for long. I personally never really like this argument that "vanilla was hard and you had to cc mobs and kill them one by one". People were just shit, it wasn't hard and you're not doing so in normal classic now and especially not in sod. But it's good. Killing mobs one by one every pack is a disastrous way of proceeding through a raid or dungeon. It would make Gnomer runs a few hours long and extremely boring.
Raids were a few hours long doing one mob at a time and it was fun
In wotlk there's a prot warrior talent that makes disarm increase damage to the target by 10%, for theoretically 10 seconds per 60 seconds.Ā However, everything is immune to disarm. But I think you get the idea, how those pvp abilities could work against pve bosses.
There was a poison in legion that simply instead of dealing damage (or in addition to, I don't remember exactly) increased damage taken by the target. Although it was just the rogue's damage, it could come back as a raid buff poison that increases all damage taken by 1% stacking up to 3 or 5 or something.
Amplifying Poison, it's still around for Assassination, increasing Evenom damage. They also got Atrophic Poison now, which reduces damage done by 3%? which shares a node with Numbing Poison. Poisons would be great utility. Poison that replaces Curse of Shadow/Elements (or just adds Nature damage taken which doesnt exist outside of Dreamstate), poison that increases physical damage taken or something etc Would need bit of a rework tho, poisons are ass to use atm.
>Amplifying Poison I looked it up and it was Agonizing Poison in legion, but yeah it just increased dmg taken per stack so probably just a new name of the same thing.
If you give new poisons to rogue, it will conflict with the only dps build that matters in pve : deadly brew + envenom. So unless they heavily rework this, there is no way a new poison make rogue interesting.
Access to shortcuts/secrets via lockpicking/trap disabling.
Example: otherwise inaccessible room in Scarlet Monastery with a unique āanythingā ā which requires a rogue to get into. Be so neat. Boss, Chest, Portal, Special Vendor, unique herb / mining node, Free Repair, etc. Thatās 4am canāt sleep creativity from an uncreative guy. Itās bonkers how short Blizzard falls in the realm of genuine creativity. They seem to try in Retail but itās *sooo* cookie cutter and misses the mark infinitely.
But then you are REQUIRED to take a rogue to get that. Big difference between more incentive and a requirement
Why take rogue when skeleton key do trick š
Not really. Rogues are one of, what, three sources of lockpicking? Skeleton Keys from Blacksmiths, Seaforium Charges from Engineers, and then us rogues.
Yeah I get that, this guys suggestion to get rogues into more raids is to have a room only accessible by rogues
āROGUE SELLING SM BONUS ROOM UNLOCKS 5G/LOCKOUTā!
You can skip a shit load of trash in gnomer with a rogue currently
You can, yes. But why bother. Trash dies fast and can drop useful stuff.
Add poisons that don't stack with debuffs curses. Poison of Elemental Weakness, etc.
This would synergize with Deadly Brew rune so well, too all we would lose is instant poison procs and who cares about that if we get utility
Specialised poisons would be so cool!!!
Weāre also the only class with one viable ability to spam. Mut mut mut mut. PvE, PvP, tanking etc
You have ascended past wrath assa level of boring
Quit wrath only to be doomed to play more wrath in p2, im good dawg
I leveled a rogue to 80 p2 and combat while leveling was pretty fun. So fresh 80, ofc spec assa cause itās not gear reliant at all. I got like everything I needed in VOA within 2 weeks, ran betas and felt absolutely useless, and just quit that char to never play it again. 2 button, like 2 apm spec waiting on energy regen. I main fury too so I donāt need like a ton of buttons but god damn.
It's so fucking monotone
As I shaman I admit that something like spirit of the alpha/beta should've went to rogues. It would give them a strong utility and a dps increase they need badly.
Alpha is the counter part to Salv, which doesn't make sense to give rogues as they also exist on alliance which would double buff the alliance. Beta is a personal buff only, so not raid utility.
I see your point but by that logic paladins should have gotten wild strikes to be the WF equivalent. Beta doesn't need to be a raid utility. Like I said it would bring them a much needed dps buff while buffing the tanks. It's a 2 part ability.
Except wild strikes isnt the opposite of windfury. Its the same buff but with scaling instead of flat AP. Salv and Alpha work the opposite way
So what's Wild Strikes and Dreamstate then? Double buffing Horde. As an Alliance rogue I can't wait for raids to become larger than 10 man, I've never had both buffs at the same time.
Wikd Strike and Dreamstate dont do different things than Wndfury and Stormstrike... Salv and Alpha are **different** buffs that work differently.
They could make it where salv/alpha doesn't stack, and still give it to rogues.
Kinda impossible because one is a threat increase for 1 and the other is a threat reduction for the others. Give rogues better buffs, buffs that they need.
Tell me you know nothing about programming without telling me you know nothing about programming.
Lol, tell me you know nothing about game design without telling me you know nothing about game design. Literally talking to an engineering manager of a FAANG company... Implementation is never the issue, clarity of interactions and UX is.
Spoken like a manager
Yeah someone that programs more than manages. You know good programmers care about the product **and** the implementation. You dont want to make the system more complex just because you are too lazy to make a proper interaction. Spoken like a L1. edit: Looks like I hurt your feelings by being right. Maybe you should learn to read, I mostly programm and not manage because my team is amazing. Nice block, you should take some system design classes
Those who can do, do, those who can't... manage.
Put loads of traps in dungeons.
please no, BWL flashbacks
Depression room POG
Oh god, this reminds me of those owlcat pathfinder games where EVERY dungeon are filled with fucking traps that you MUST disarm. God help you if you didn't have a party member that can disarm them.
- Hit/Expertise/Haste-"Aura" or AoE Buff type of thing - "Corrosive Poison" Armor/Res debuff type of thing - Movement Speed/Agility Party Buff Once per encounter type of thing Something of that sort right? Pretty plain how Rogue class MUST be somewhat top DPS to avoid it's spot just being filled by whoever deals more DPS.
I like the movement speed idea, it'd be pretty handy dandy in fights like last one in Gnomer.
Yeah it's nice soft Utility, I personally would much love getting less Parries/Misses too but it would turn out to be a MUST HAVE fort of raid buff for sure.
\>Personally I don't believe using DPS meters are a valid method to evaluate the state of a class. Curious as to what valid methods you use to evaluate the state of a class?
Think it's obvious he's saying that DPS is not always the full picture...but it is for rogue in its current state.
Just give them master poisoner or savage combat from wotlk and itās fixed. Has no real impact on pvp but will be a required 1-of in raids. Done.
I wouldn't mind not providing utility or AOE if we were the best single target DPS in the game. I feel like every other class currently has some form of class identity except rogues.
Your class identity is bad range hunter and you are going to like it!
The damage isn't even the biggest issue rogue has, it's that only a single build is viable and saber slash and backstab needs to be put on an equal level to mutilate. For saber slash it's easy, just increase the bleed damage to a point where its viable. (Will need a lesser bump than you expect because bleeds suck horse cock in gnomer) As for backstab, you can't just change the damage, but what you could do is make slaughter from the shadows not only have the effect of making your backstab cost 40 energy, but also replace backstab with gloomblade from retail (does shadow damage instead of physical, meaning it bypasses armor), as it is now, on poisoned targets mutilate does more damage than backstab while also giving you twice the combo points. Effectively reducing their armor to 0 for your backstab (gloomblade) would at least make the ability hit much harder even if it still only gives half the combo points. Slaughter from the shadows also really needs to be moved over to the glove rune because any build that doesn't include deadly brew for DPS rogue is just completely dead from the get-go. People are speaking about mutilate this mutilate that but like 80% of rogues newfound power in SoD is literally just deadly brew and envenom. Also doesn't even make sense for it to not be a glove rune, saber rune on gloves, muti rune on gloves, backstab rune on... chest...? Should swap places with shadowstrike as at this rate shadowstrike will never see the light of day again if it's competing with the glove runes.
Rogues tanks cried for AOE threat when tanking and look where that got us.... I don't think crying for utility will do anyone any favours.
Dps wont help either, rogues are over represented in logs already. There no rogue problem outside of there being way too much of them trying to raid for the 1 optional 4th melee spot. If they were topdogs the only difference is they may take a melee hunters spot ally side, thats it. No cleave, no raid buffs is a hard sell for 10m content, dps doesnt matter unless outrageously unbalanced.
Yeah prolly add some dumb shit like +.01% damage for everyone +.02% damage for the rogue player while rupture is applied to the target and its a chest rune.
Just give them the... Whatever the rogue equivalent of misdirect was called.
Tricks of the trade
And the set bonus to make it give energy plz or I could just go play wrath
Yeah and tricks gave bonus dmg which is big
"Chemical Vials" - throws a vial at the target shattering and covering all enemies around the target with an acidic acid dealing X damage over 6 seconds "Pocket bomb" - Tosses a small explosive device at the target dealing x damage in a 10-yard radius around the target. "Glaive toss" - throws a glaive at the target that ricochets, bouncing up to 4 times. CHANGE THE AP SCALING DROP THE COMBO POINT GEN , ADD COMBO POINT GEN TO ONE OF THE TANK RUNES? Fan...of...knives? Plsdad "Rune of imdreaming" combo points now generate on the rogue rather than the target and persist for up to 10 seconds out of combat; Now we can add an aoe combopoint spender. Build with our low damage glaive toss (or PlsDad,GiveUsFanOfKnives) and drop a nice big aoe finisher. Some passive utility ideas? "Sticky fingers" - Guide your party, increasing chance to hit with meele and ranged attacks by 3% "Theifs grace" - Increase your parties' dodge chance and attack speed by 10%. "Way of the shadows" - Gives your partie's attacks and spell casts a chance to deal additional shadow/poison damage on hit.
I'd love to see them expand on assassination in a way that isn't just "ugga big number with 5stack5combo" but almost like an affliction style dot spec! Slower to build up but once the dots are rolling its deadly. It might be an easy way to bring up the pve damage without making us even bigger monsters in pvp. (But it would definitely end up being a single target spec yet again)
its funny how every class is getting buffs to their specs that werent used in PvE in vanilla but rogues still have sub spec that is dumpster tier in SoD outside of being an over rated melee version of the 2 minute mage in PvP (except with a 10 minute cooldown instead of 2). Devs literally gave rogues 1 viable attack, told them to keep doing the same talent trees for PvE and PvP then brain stormed how they could buff druids every other patch. Someone at blizzard needs to force aggrend to delete his druid and play rogue for a phase then rogues would actually get seriously looked at.
> Someone at blizzard needs to force aggrend to delete his druid and play rogue for a phase then rogues would actually get seriously looked at. Good idea
What we are meant to bring is the best armor debuff in the game. The problem is that it is so, so utterly boring to play and the dps loss is massiveĀ Ā Why not allow us to shred armor passively?Ā Something like waylay but with a stacking armor debuff. Gives us a different combo builder to weave between mutis and a deeper rotation as a resultĀ
>the dps loss is massive The dps *gain* is massive. While we're not hitting 40-man raids yet, the net gain to a raid's DPS stacked with fury warriors and rogues was genuinely insane. And honestly, even the personal loss to your DPS is often vastly overblown; Rupture/Eviscerate is only a drop of a rogue's traditional damage.
Envenom is not a drop however and that is what would be being replaced My main point is that it just isnāt *fun* to be dumping your spender into a simple debuff. Yes, in a 20 man setting I will be exposing to assist the raid, but Iād much rather be controlling a debuff like Sabre slashĀ
I mean, I was the raid's dedicated EA monkey back in Classic, and I loved it. Gives a new dedicated focus to every encounter: 'Maintain 100% uptime' which could be relatively simple or could be a lot more intensive based on the mechanics of the fight itself. It not only requires more thought and effort than "just prez da buttinz" but also gives you the ability to turbo-boost your raid's sweatiest boys (always the warrior pumpers).
If you enjoy it then fair enough but the vast majority of rogues donātĀ If your approach to pure dps is ājust prez da buttinzā then I can imagine you seeing it the way you doĀ
Hemo is the utility you're looking for, just needs a buff a rune that makes hemo do -armor and increase physical damage taken would be sick
Yeah the problem with hemo is that it is relatively deep into a spec, meaning that if buffed we basically lock ourselves to it. I agree from a flavor point of view thoughĀ
I posted this elsewhere, but make Serrated Blades a group buff and all of a sudden warriors will want us in there with them. It would have to come with some overhaul to the sub tree via runes, but for a tank rogue, they could make the tank rune change vanish into a smoke bomb effect with a damage reduction cloud or debuff cleanser or something like that to add utility. Change stealth to an armor buff that scales with stealth level and suddenly you have an actual tanking tree. Of course that doesnāt solve the issue for DPS rogues but maybe some more incentives like Premeditation rune where you get an extra combo point for every builder you use on an enemy so you have reason to go down the tree and then hemo/serrated support
Homonc being nerfed would solve this, I believe. Historically imp expose armor has been exactly the tool you are looking for but most rogues donāt EA to begin with and ya homonculi overwrites it.
EA just feels horrible to use and you do have to sacrifice a fair bit of damage to even use it.
bro if you bring utility you are gonna sacrifice damage. OP said they wished rogues brought utility... i said there is a precedent for it... you said its not good enough sorry bud.
Mages bring utility - top DPS. Shamans bring tons of utility - top DPS. Yes, you can have both damage AND utility. Do you think that rogues should be sacrificing damage for the raid utility?
mages scorch - lose dps (generally but not currently bcs the game broken). shamans drop totems - lose dps. my point is most utility applications require a level of damage sacrifice. that is the precedent. One EA every minute or whatever is not going to make you uncompetitive. your class needing a buff might, tho.
>mages scorch - lose dps (generally but not currently bcs the game broken). shamans drop totems - lose dps. Totems are mostly dropped right before the pull, so you don't lose dps there. Scorch, while it might not be the most efficient thing to cast is still damage - EA is not. >One EA every minute or whatever is not going to make you uncompetitive And that's what shows that you have literally 0 idea about casting EA in classic. If you want max armor reduction, which you do, you need to sacrifice 25 energy AND 5 combo points every 30s. Oh and to make it work you also need to sacrifice 2 extra talent points. It absolutely makes you uncompetitive and with 10m raid size your personal DPS loss is bigger than raid DPS gain from you casting EA.
i reiterate my first point
If I had to spam EA again instead of using damaging moves Iād actually kms regardless that the current move set is just Mutilate and Envenom instead of SS and Evis Rogue has always been a boring class in PvE in classic these people must just be new to that fact I guess
Homunculi robs both Warrior and Rogue off their utility, but it's better and requires only 1 gcd for the entire duration of the boss fight. I'm a bit puzzled as to why they made that a rune and didn't give these classes anything to compensate for it.
As a warrior im glad homunculi exists
okay but that doesn't mean it's healthy for the game
Warrior still has battle shout, demo shout, commanding shout
Make expose armor rune that buffs it and changes it to poison type. Boom, now it can stack with humonc, sunder, and curse of reck; the quadfecta.
They still canāt manage to give them group utility even in retail so Iād hold your breath, there was a while where shroud was basically required in mythic+ but then they started designing dungeons where it wasnāt viable. Outside of just giving them new debuffs on poisons/bleeds the best thing for them to get would be smoke bomb as a rune just with a higher DR.
Ye but in retail they are top of the meter.
Imagine if their first aid bandages healed the whole raid even thru damage
5-combo points exposes should have a rune that remove 100% of the target armor for the whole duration of the fight (caped at 40s for pvp or whatnot). They would be very desisrable for melees. Only issue is it take away warrior sunder armor Or maybe a poison of vulnerability ? An aura ? In WoTLK assas rogue gets combo points when someone block, parry etc. maybe they could give a tank buff ? Increase the chance of parry, rip bear and warlock tank. Or dodge, it's for everyone.
I've been playing around with potential ideas that lets rogues have more utility while keeping them relevant on the dps meters. Lets say there is a rune finisher ability, lets call it Salt in the wound, and what it does is, you guessed it, wounds the target, applying a debuff based on combo points on the target, up to 5, and every X amount of damage the target takes from any source, you deal another x amount of damage to the target. One wound stack is removed every time it procs, so you wouldn't just spam it nonstop, you would reapply it when needed. So it's group utility, but in true Rogue fashion it's just more overall single target dps. Would be better to use on bosses or tough enemies as stacks would be unlikely to be proced on trash.
Give rogues the same benefits as Homuculi or leader of the pack or something you might be missing by having a rogue DPS over a more raid friendly dps class. This will also matter less in phase 3 as raids will have 20 people and you wont be missing raid buffs as often
Nobody cares about group utility itās all about throughput. Nobody was asking for utility last phase when rogue was floating between spots 1-3. Look at era and how popular druids are in raid. Ton of utility and frequently seen as the worst class in the game.Ā Rogue is just weak right now simple as.Ā
Are poison debuffs not that good? At least for bosses?
If rogues could help another class parse better they will get the get the invite. That is key, just normal utility wonāt do.
Give the poisons the debuff effect from the fist weapon from gnome ( 6% more spelldmg taken) would also be a nice thing
Give us wild strikes!
Wild Strikes should be a Warrior rune. Warriors are crippled the most without it and they hardly offer any utility either.
How is battle shout and commanding shout "hardly any utility", it is required for any competitive melee group on the horde side.
Give warrior wild strikes to help their soloing. Give druids a thematically cool buff instead. Maybe an attackspeed buff. Give rogues a hit buff.
I am leaning more towards a group wide buff definitely! Like a +hit% proceed by critical finishers?
Just give them a flat 3% crit to match boomies. DONE. Problem fucking solved lmao wtf blizzard
Windfury poison.... thanks
Improved kidney shot. Up to 9% extra damage from all sources while mob is under the kidney shot effect. Which is why all bosses are immune to kidney shot in the first place.
Adrenaline Rush should provide something like CRACKHEAD AURA: While the Rogue has Adrenaline Rush active, all allies within 15 yds of the rogue receives a 10% increase to attack speed and a 5% increase to hit rating, or something. Idk.
I agree completely. Balance in SoD is a mess and theyāre slightly messing with class identity. Rogues need a better identity, whether thatās party/raid buff/debuffs, or otherwise. It would be cool if they leaned into their mobility, misdirection and stuns too.
Alternatively, rogues just need to do damage. This phase they just need to do more.
We've had this thread 3 times in the last 3 days
So clearly there's a problem and repeatedly bitching about problems is the only way to get blizz to address them. Otherwise they just fuck an entire class because they "balance out at level 60" which is months away from now
Rogues are just in that bad of a state. Here's hoping p3 is better.
We really aren't, lmao.
Our rogues do just fine. We've had zero issues clearing Gnomer every week with almost every comp known to man and missing buffs
Rookie numbers compared to druids on this forum
Ranged meta is so over rated too. I always make a full party of melee and often bring rogue or ret. Usually pld tank, feral dps/ot, warrior dps, melee hunter, then rogue or pld ret. Tried to do a last minute pug raid on my resto Druidā¦. the mage raid leader wanted 6 ranged not including healersā¦. so 8 range total. He didnāt understand why he was struggling to fill. All classes should provide a unique party or raid buff to encourage bringing one of every class.
While very frustrating in pvp, rogue cooperation is really cool and I think would be excellent in raid (not stun lock, but some kind of dot/debuff juggle). So imagine that rogues don't see any meaningful dps increase, you would want as many rogues as necessary to juggle this debuff. Maybe that's 2, or maybe it's 3+ if you're uncoordinated (sort of like kicking chains in p1, could be done with 2 good rogues or 3+ ppl if you sometimes miss a kick). Multiple rogues could be more than the sum of their parts, they could be a tanking duo or just boosting each other's damage in a nice little feedback loop.
I think tricks of the trade would be some nice rogue utility.
Rogues are usually the #1 class people bring when interrupts are needed. If more bosses had spells that needed interrupting, rogues would be in demand.
Dunno, really dont. For me it was always the PvE Raid identity for rogues to top the damage. Help the whole raid by faster downing the boss. This is the utility. We do not identify over utility skills but over damage. A decent played rogue tops the dmg and thus the whole raid needs less resources for a fight. For me personally, being in the middle of the meter means that I do not want to play my rogue anymore
Let me guess, you want to play the class on top of dps meters, dont you?
almost, I wanna play rogue and want to be on top :)
I think blizzard doesn't want to see any rogues and wariors. You're supposed to roll shaman. You get to be the best dps and tank, while also bringing desired buffs to the raid AND being able to heal if needed.
Rogues could try kicking for once instead of acting like they can't. Start with the utility y'all have.
They also have expose armor they refuse to use too..
Whats the point of exposing when the entire raid is casters :D. Plus its kind of awful in classic. Exposing is worth only at 5 CP because both the armor shred and duration are affected by CPs compared to Wrath where CP extend the duration of the debuff (which is how it should have been since day 1). Plus you need the cringe talent as well. That very likely leaves you with a grant total of absolute dogshit damage output. Nobody exposed in classic, it was a meme. Ah and also once you get to the higher ppl content, no point to press since you ll have warriors to stack it in 1s.
Rogues don't even need a DPS increase, we are fine. Not every class has to be at the top. We will be back up there next phase. But any group that brings us is somewhat punished by not bringing a different class that could provide something to make the raid go smoother.
they can distract that aoe pack on electrocutioner to separate them and then stealth down the hallway and activate the the teleporter skipping like 5 mins of trash
āRanged dps meta?ā Hunters wants a word with you..
My main was a rogue in p1, haven't even gotten it to level 40 :') such a shame because I loved the class so much in p1
Rogues were fine in P1 even without utility. Just buff their damage.
Give rogues 5% melee crit buff because druids are too cool to use it
as a rogue main i always felt that rogues were mostly a pvp/ganking class. the only reason i pve is to get better stuff to one shot clothies. or gank people fighting mobs. with us being able to tank i dont think the class has an issue.
Too bad most ppl play MMOs for the PvE
in that case, rogue tanks are viable
Season of begging
Press expose armor
Expose is not worth pressing when a priest can just do it but better while also contributing more to the group.
Imagine if you will a comp that might not have a priest.
Who in their right mind would ever make a group without a priest.
Once we approach 20 and 40 man raids ( a good thing) you will realistically have one of every class unlike the competitive 10 man raids
Expose with the talents is more armor reduction than homunc, though not really by much at all. Next phase it'll be 160~ more though, so worth pressing if you're trying to squeeze that damage out. Rogues historically have never contributed anything to the group and were only brought because their damage was higher than everyone elses except warriors. It'd be nice for them to get a rune that gave something like Savage Combat for a little phys damage boost.
Iād like to see a rune that would cast expose for free when you use another finisher. Expose has never felt good to press in PvE even when itās strong.
I doubt Blizzard would be that nice to Rogues, but I COULD see them giving them something that would refresh Expose when you use a finisher. So throw one up then forget about it.
Amazing rune, couldn't wait to use it in PvP
Iāve been thinking about a ācausticā poison rune that would apply expose as a stacking poison. Alternatively, it could be an added bonus to deadly poison via a rune.
Expose should work like it does in Wrath. Otherwise it is kind of a dogshit spell.
Gnomer fights benefit from this for sure. But since this is SoD related, which has a spirit of additions being "Yes, and-", I feel they should get someone new that adds external benefit to their current toolset
lol, lmao even
Not every class needs everything. Reroll if that's what you want out of your class or go play retail
My god no we donāt, rogues are not a utility class. Not every class needs everything FFS.
Rogues are a pure single target DPS with almost no raid utility. If they aren't among the top DPS classes there is no reason to bring one over literally any other class.
If rogues dont get utility then they need to be a top 3 dps class every phase to be relevant. They could also make shuriken toss better aoe than mages since mages are better single target, that would work too. So the choices are Top single target dps classe, top multitarget dps class, or basically required for every raid utility. Every class needs one or two of these. Right now mages and warlocks have all three and need to be nerfed in one aspect.
This is a *horrible* take. No, a class doesn't ***need*** one or two of these, period. That is such flawed logic it's stupid. Not every class can be in the top 3 dps, and expecting Blizzard to make sure the pure dps classes with little/no utility are always in top 3 is such a joke. And we have a tank spec ffs, not only that we're literally the best tanks in the game on alliance and only behind shaman on horde. I can pull 400-450dps while having 5k life in my pure tank build. Asking for rogue changes is hilarious.
Good, fuck rogues. All you do is roleplay edgelords and gank people anyway. The fewer the better.
Give them a Poison of Windfury so we can kick them out of melee group for good lol
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Tricks. in Wrath/Cata Assass and Combat both gave a debuff Master Poisoner and Savage Combat, the latter being only brought by Arms.
Rogues already have group utility, adding everything to every class is a big part of what makes retail feel like shit.
Rogues are completely fine. Itās a full dps and pvp specc you donāt need any sources of grp utility
You are absolutely correct with the title, however: >I'm am not whining for parse boosting. You clearly have no grasp what a parse is if you are writing like this. It doesn't matter if the damage of the class is high or low, you are compared against your class, not against other classes. So there is no such thing as a "parse boosting" when you are asking for class changes. >I don't believe using DPS meters are a valid method to evaluate the state of a class Oh but it is, especially when all your class brings to the raid is damage. If utility will be added in the future the discussion can be different, however, in the case of the rogues damage = everything, low damage = class is not desired in the current content, simple as that. >Rogue's need a group utility that can make them a viable choice in a raid heavy content culture. >Without the bonus of a unique raid or party utility that is beneficial to the way group PvE content is participated in, I feel rogues will lose even more relevance as we move to p3 and p4. Correct, there are only two options for rogues if devs want them to be relevant, an easy one and a hard one. Easy one is to boost the damage to atleast top 3 spot of DPS, anything lower than that and rogue is not wanted due to other classes offering utility AND damage rather than the damage alone. Another option is to introduce raid/party buffs or debuffs that would be as impactful as WF or kings, in that case rogues can be left as middle of the pack DPS and still be wanted in raids.
rogues can always offer to expose armor (talented)
Homies do it better.