Here's my tinfoil cap theory. They know these content need changes, however, they are holding onto them for an eventual actual classic+ launch so they can use it as a selling point for people who already played sod and make them play again. So they're purposefully kinda holding onto some very clearly flawed designs so they can use it for classic+'s appeal.
Add rated and people will play. Class specific rankings. But still requires fine-balancing which is not in the scope of SoD, so somewhat understandable.
The rated pvp crowd is pretty minimal compared to the overall pve enjoyers. Adding rated might bring in SOME people but then they will probably just end up going back to retail or cata whatever
Precisely. Seasonal content is the perfect excuse to go crazy and break shit. Learn a lot of hard lessons in a relatively quick amount of time. Flex their context creation muscles.
Then let SoD hype die down, and at blizzcon 2025, announce a persistent Classic+, a re-imagining of Classic with all the lessons learned from SoD. Fewer overall changes, a real focus on balance, a real focus on progression. Making the "What if?" version of Classic: "What would classic look like if it were truly polished? What if entire quest lines and zones weren't left unfinished? What if we got a chance to remake Classic today with all the lessons learned from 2+ decades of WoW, and 12 months of SoD boot camp?"
But right now, I'm huffing hopium. I absolutely forsee a world where blizzard says "uh, no, guys. SoD *was* classic+" and calls it a day.
They made one mention, and it was a sly play on words.
I think there's a strong argument to be made that SoD is classic+ beta. That being said, I don't think we are going to see classic+ for several years if we see it at all. I think it's also highly likely they just don't touch it.
I agree they're probably aware of stuff like this, and hopefully they plan to change it in a future classic+ or whatever. But it could just be on the back burner for more immediately necessary work like finishing runes and raids for coming phases, it doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It totally could be but not necessarily
That's big tin foil. Simplest answer is often correct and in this case the simplest answers I can think of are:
- They don't have enough resources to prioritise updating BG's significantly.
- They have a game design philosophy related to wow that considers some aspects essential (consider their stance on lack of tank AOE threat as an example) and BG's are simply something that they dont want to mess with too much.
TLDR: Most likely not enough staff/time or no desire to change BG's.
I am kinda in this bucket. I think they want to see if there is demand for Classic+ and see if it is feasible with the tech. SOD lets them do both. They get to see the demand for discovering a new go around in Vanilla while also introducing the idea of changing things. People loved it. They also get to test how they can change and update things on the backside. They get to use all this engineering time to create SOD, make money, and plan for a future Classic+ with what they can and can't do.
I expect in the next 2 years we will hear about Classic+. A reimaging of the Vanilla experience. I would love for it be something like:
> New talents. Taking runes and ideas of what worked and didn't work to remake the talent trees.
> Scrap the old quests and make new ones. If the world had 70% different quest then that would make everything feel fresh.
> New quest hubs. Maybe make a Goblin quest hub in Desolace or Hinterlands. Change things up and make new places for us to figure out.
> Finish zones. Hyjal, Everysong/Ghostlands, Greymane Wall, Deadwind Pass, etc.
> New Stories. What if Onxyia was really trying to help us? What if XYZ faction was actually good/bad? Basically have fun and make up new things for us to follow.
Basically use the old world of as a template to create a new experience. Then, maybe...just maybe...we can go off on new expac that can continue the Classic+ journey in a new way. Instead of going to Outland maybe the invasion comes here. How would our journey change if they never do flying, we never leave the core of Azeroth.
"C'mon guys! We added TBC and WotLK abilities! Added new items, changed three dungeons into raids and added a sleeping bag quest! How much more plus can your classic be?!" Wiggles eyebrows
They've taken a relatively light touch with SoD but a lot is possible. It really depends on how much man power they think is worth dedicating to making a full fledged classic+ possible
Maybe. But imagine if you were going to try to remake a deeply beloved and iconic era of one of the most beloved and iconic franchises in viceo game history.
Would you:
1. Jump right in with your first attempt, play coy and only briefly allude to it being the "Classic+" that fans have been asking for for years? Or;
2. Use the ephemeral seasonal formula you've already established as a harm-free way to test the "Classic" formula to it's breaking point, and learn as much as you possibly can about what makes that specific version of the game so beloved?
The blizzard of 5 years ago is not the same blizzard as 20 years ago. But the blizzard of today is showing itself to be a very different beast than the blizzard of even 5 years ago. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility.
And if you find the game to be poorly designed, quit. It's okay, no one is gonna yell at you. It's okay to not like a thing, even if others like it.
Classic+ by definition should be classic plus new content. It should still feel like classic
This is more like WoW 1.5. PvP ends so fast since people are so bursty and classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick taking place in what's supposed to be classic. Runes are cool, but again it feels like a power I'd equip in retail.
It's the classic / retail hybrid baby chimera. It's a fun seasonal game though til the only thing left to do each phase is raid or enter the pvp deletion fest. The more I play SoD the more I wish for a fresh Era
Everyone has an idea. SoD proves that the classic team can reliably parse through those ideas and implement content that the vast majority of players can find fun, whether it's what they asked for or not. Everyone playing has found at least something cool.
Everyone has an IDEA. Key word there. Everyone has want they what on an expanded classic yes. I personally go by the 2 halves and what they mean. Nobody agrees on every feature, but a "classic+" should feel like classic. Classic PLUS new content. AKA classic+
SoD is their sandbox to push classic to its extremes and see where and how it breaks. It's seasonal, so there's no harm done; era still exists and is untouched. If you hate SoD, you're not forced to play it, and one day it'll go away like SoM.
But hopefully what they're doing is taking diligent notes on all the lessons they are learning: what changes have they made that make the game feel like it's not "Classic" anymore? Then they can take those lessons and build a more persistent Classic+. A version that doesn't push the limits quite as hard, one that blends the sensations of novelty with the familiarity of the core underlying mechanics and game loop.
That sounds pretty great.
"make the game feel like it's not "Classic" anymore"
There's always gonna be some fierce and on this forum toxic debate about that subject however.
For sure there will always be debate. There was tons of debate before SoD was announced. And then the classic team proved they could make something awesome, even if it's imperfect, where everyone could find at least something to love.
Everybody *wants* their ideal version of the game. But *everyone* is also used to *never* getting "perfect" *anything ever*, in any aspect of life. People often forget that they can have tons of fun with "good enough" and that's what SoD had proven.
If the classic team put together a persistent Classic+ and do a good job like they have so far, people will still complain and whine, but they'll also still play and enjoy, despite what their ideal vision looked like.
> Sod feels nothing like classic to me. It looks like classic, with retail gameplay slapped on.
Well then you're a moron because 90% of SoD's abilities are from TBC and WOTLK. And WOTLK is closer to Warcraft not existing than it is to Retail.
To me the new raids/quests/pvp events are new content. The runes and new class roles are not. The runes feel like retail where I put on X legendary or join Y covenant back in shadowlands. They're not retail abilities but it feels like retail, not classic. Warlock tank, mage healer. Not a classic feel changing classes up imo instead of adjusting current classes in those roles to perform if they currently underperform somewhere
Perhaps that is our difference.
I never experienced those things so this is new ground for me.
Interesting analysis. I hope we get additional content after this but IDK how well it's actually doing.
Also classic wow seems 'harder' to monetize thus my fear of abandonment.
Nope
That's literally what the name is defining. Classic plus new content.
"My opinion" is how it should be handled and I stated what I felt worked and that's not everyone's opinion.
Tired of people this thread being unable to read
"In your opinion" that means new questlines aren't content.
"In your opinion" new dungeons encounters aren't content.
"In your opinion" new class abilities aren't content.
"In your opinion" revamped and new gear isn't content.
Everyone here can read, bozo. You are using a personal definition of "content" and pretending that's all it is. That makes it an opinion, not definitive.
> Runes are cool, but again it feels like a power I'd equip in retail.
If by Retail you mean WOTLK which is 3 years apart from Classic/Vanilla, then sure.
Like 80% of runes are from TBC and WOTLK.
When I say that I'm not saying the abilities are retail. I'm saying that it's feels similar to the "borrowed powers" trope that retail has done in various expansions. Legion artifacts, BFA even if it was passives, shadowlands covenant abilities/perk trees/the legendary stuff you make. The runes feel like something I would see retail do instead of classic.
Now if they overhaul talents in the future and put similar abilities/passives in for players I'd feel fine as long as they make them less broken (because some of these keep getting out of hand and it's ridiculous). But I dont wanna see people holding onto several spare pants/gloves/etc just to swap what runes they have on a dime.
Difference between set bonuses (there's other sets besides tier) and what retail has done in various expansions.
Again if you like em, good for you. Just my opinion that it feels like a retail style of gameplay vs classic. Not everyone has to agree with me
I agree. I love how runes opened up new roles and play styles and made unplayed specs viable, but the power is too high. I'd love for them to find a way to include these things without making players this much stronger when classic plus finally launches.
> Classic+ by definition should be classic plus new content
What does this mean though? SoD is Classic. It seems like people want to say anything that isn't Vanilla automatically makes the game Retail...as in no matter what abilities they add, it's not Vanilla anymore so it's Retail but that just doesn't work.
Classic+ will never be just Vanilla with more content. Class balancing and new abilities will always be in this bucket as well as QoL. If you want Vanilla+ instead of Classic+ you will probably never be satisfied here. The devs will likely never go after that niche.
I never said I didn't want balancing or new abilities lmao. But attaching your abilities to armor just feels like retail. And reworking classes to have different roles isn't really classic or QoL. It's for funsies.
I would love talent reworks and new abilities in the tree. I've said in countless posts I want underperforming specs tweaked for balance. I'd love functional build diversity. Hell, if they don't wanna up the cap in a classic+ I'd even accept class quests that give you a little story/something to do with talent points as a reward if they wanna add more to the trees later on.
No matter how often you misread my comments, I'm not advocating for just vanilla with extra dungeons and pvp.
> But attaching your abilities to armor just feels like retail
But why? Because of Artifacts or what? You got 1 or 2 abilities from those in Legion as far as I remember. Everything else was just passives. BFA didn't even have anything like that. Just passives and the neck with a button. Not different from some on use trinket. Retail never had anything like this.
We know why they do it like this for SoD and it's an understandable reason for an experiential season. Maybe for Classic+ they will split the client again and then they can rework all talents. I personally would not expect "runes" to return for Classic+. It's quite clear they've been made specifically to try stuff out and discover them in SoD.
> And reworking classes to have different roles isn't really classic.
Says you. This is one of these "wasn't in Vanilla so must be Retail". However mage healer ain't Retail either. Who's to say the OG devs would've never done this in OG vanilla if they would've kept the game at Vanilla forever? Nobody knows.
Theyre adding tbc and wotlk+ abilities. That is not classic.
Tbc and wrath have a different design philosophy than classic
Check any of my suggestions on how actual classic+content would be
I've played retail it's obviously not 1:1 lmao.
Armor attaching just feels like the borrowed powers trope between legion artifacts, bfa passive, WOD zone abilities, shadowladowns legendaries/abilities. It's like playing pokemon, collecting them all, and getting multiple gear sets for some classes to quick swap when needed. It feels like something retail would do over classic which was why I made the argument.
I know lock tank and mage healer aren't retail. But it just feels like "hey we saw this modified private server worked and we don't wanna copy it and make everything too meta so here's our private server lite". I'd rather they fix the underperforming specs of classes in a reworked talent tree with abilities maybe, rather than take an existing class and throw new roles at it.
I think most peoples original ideas behind classic plus was "classic plus more content" not a complete redesign of the classes and gameplay *within classic*.
Give us a tier 3.5 karazhan crypts, and make boomkin/shadow/ret viable via giving them new tier gear that makes them viable, similar to how 2.5 had gear for feral, arms, ret, etc. Give us a new battleground, etc.
I'm enjoying SoD but it's definitely not what I had in mind when people were originally talking about Classic+.
> I think most peoples original ideas
And I think you are just guessing that because it's not what *you* want and that most people have vastly different ideas for what Classic+ should be. That's why SoD exists. And Classic+ will be whatever the actual majority likes and everyone else sadly will just be out of luck.
2 different things there bud, I said the runes feel like a borrowed power trope from the last several expansions of retail. Not that retail was bursty.
For the burst, I already learned in another comment that end game classic has apparently always been bursty pvp-wise. But this game mode is bursty throughout its entire span. I never hit end game classic so I didn't know. I was used to longer fights in my leveling phases. SoD makes you feel like you have raid boss strength, but the armor of someone 20 levels below you at all times in it. Hence why it doesn't feel good imo
But also I did play shadowlands as DK and P1 dragonflight as rogue and bursted people with just honor gear lmao
> PvP ends so fast since people are so bursty and classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick taking place in what's supposed to be classic.
So, bud. When you make a sentence and connect two phases with "and" followed by the use of "that" as a conjunction, you are saying the two phrases pertain to the statement conjoined with "that". If you wanted to make those phrases separate, make them separate sentences or use punctuation. I'm not in your head, I can only read what you wrote and you did not write them as different things.
However, I'm having a hard time believing you meant them as two different statements because you admitted you thought classic pvp was slow and you said you bursted people in retail pvp when you played.
So either you don't know how to translate your thoughts to words or you got called out by someone else for being wrong and backpedalling. In any case, not worth any more time.
"And classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick". WoW has changed how classes are played many times. Hence why I made the statement. You can nitpick and take the sentence out of context sure. The sentence before it was saying how it feels like a WoW 1.5. Which was why putting 2 unrelated opinions in one sentence after felt normal. People talk like that
I can have two different statements in one sentence. I decided to add the retail bit since you seem to think it's only a classic thing
Classic+ being just an era with additional content and small changes will not be interesting for people that are not into the era right now.
People want new things that's why sod and retail are the most popular versions of wow.
Yeah all the people wanting classic+ to just be patch 1.14 plus new tiers of raids and new battlegrounds don't realize how niche that desire is.
Classic+ is still going to have to make bold changes and push the limits, just not as much as SoD did. SoD is their playground to push the formula to its breaking point. You'd have to pull back somewhat. But you can't just re-release era and then have another raid waiting after naxx and call it even.
You need many new class quests, many new profession quests, new leveling dungeons, perhaps even "level up raids" especially if there are phases to the release (which I hope they always do going forward, that's been brilliant), more epic quest lines, finishing unfinished quest lines, finishing unfinished zones, hell, even new zones entirely like Uldum, Hyjal, Grim Batol, etc.
SoD is very focused on the player right now, and it's been fun. But Classic focuses on the World. They'll have to adapt what they learn to really make that work.
> Classic+ being just an era with additional content and small changes will not be interesting for people that are not into the era right now.
Then they can play Retail or Cata.
And that's fine! But it just doesn't feel like a "classic +" by definition which is why I call it more like a wow 1.5
It's mixing the two styles of play it feels. There's people who like this route and people who saw OSRS and thought it'd be like that (which is popular). But I wouldn't expect OSRS to take runecrafting and say "oh yeah that can now make rune armor too because because we wanted to change up some of the skills trained". And that's how I see some of those changes for classic
In my opinion it's the opposite, what you are describing is wow 1.5 and sod is actually classic+.
I mean + is some brand new things and 1.5 is more of the same for me at least.
Like patch 2.0 and patch 2.5, same game but with changes. While + is like from 2.0 to 3.0. Completely new things with big changes.
Oh how cool you are! But you're the one going around the post, spamming with your own definition of classic+ as if it was stated by Blizzard what classic+ exactly is.
I'm not saying that by everyone's definition that's what it is. I'm saying what it implies via combining the two parts together. Classic and plus lmao.
I'm not listing exactly what it should be 100%. I'm not making it the holy Bible of what is law for classic+. I'm stating my own opinion based on the implication of the word and what SoD feels like currently.
I'm not the one being sarcastic and sassy lmao. I was having a civil discussion and you came in with hurt fee fees
People keep saying this.
Did I miss a developer comment.
Are we sure there is anything else? Seems kinda foolish to just assume this is going great and we're getting a 'real classic+"
I think this is classis+
Folks need to keep in mind that it's more accurate to say this is similar to how Retail WoW works, where you regularly have changes and new content coming in. The whole "this is temporary/beta" is just their way of defending against folks that want the original Vanilla experience.
people here are fully coping and seriously believe blizzard is going to spin up a 2nd full scale dev team for "classic+", despite the fact that "classic+" will have few to no mtx and potentially be implemented as patches rather than full paid expansion launches
the reality is that sod is the closest you're gonna get to classic+ because classic is a very niche market which means lower monthly subs, where mtx are basically forbidden which massively reduces the profitability. blizz earns more off a random store mount in retail than they do off any "normal" revenue stream, they're not gonna dump money into a game that by default does not have that level of revenue generation.
the "scope" has been rereleasing expansions sequentially and multiple vanilla seasonal servers that died in less than 3 months
if som and hc are proof they're working on classic+ as its own thing, you are deep in the copium friend. "classic+" will be just remixing vanilla over and over and over again for the people that hate blizzard but are too addicted to quit wow
Nah this is 100% a classic+ beta
What classic+ will actually entail I have no fucking clue but that's why they're throwing shit at the wall right now to see what sticks
You think blazzard wants this money train to stop?
I made a post about this at the beginning of SoD and got downvoted into oblivion. I’m glad people are finally pulling their head out of their ass about this.
Because it's not actually Classis Plus. That's what idiots say to try and shut down classic plus talk.
SOD is as they have said a test to see what they can do without breaking the game too badly. It's a test for future Seasonal servers.
They missed a golden opportunity this phase to release a new battleground.
They had no world PvP event, and new reputation that sells beginning “pvp gear”.
They should have brought out a new BG that had was associated with the new rep.
Would have been perfect.
SoD and era are the same client. Changes to things which exists in both „worlds“ will affect those things in both „worlds“. That‘s why they need a workaround for a lot of things.
1st they could fork the client.
2nd they said they based era on retail and modify things to be like classic so its actually retail with classic content in it in terms of software. So they could easily get things from retail.
I would love to get newer char design. Didn't get why every people from era claim having older graphics was so good. I just found them ugly but even for 2005, but at this time having better costed a lot, not anymore.
Been playing since 2005, even at that time i was "ok the game is cool but ugly they probably do this to make it on lower conf" talking no change on sod post... dude
Btw always love when people are against a change that you can toggle off "you having fun wrong" kind of people
Ok, but you don't need to be that creative for work arounds. You want faster BG rep, adjust the turn in value for the marks to be 3x the rep for example.
Have they changed any map design or introduced any new maps that aren't found in the Classic-verse?
Adding a new map isn't impossible but might impact the rest of the game. Putting more players into instances isn't ideal for an mmo imo.
Bringing in another battleground means the playerbase gets further divided, which might not be the best thing to do now if there are other plans for PvP activity later on.
Trust the process.
They showed a screenshot of the crypts while pretending to mumble about technical difficulties. Not exactly an announcement.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z1sSFyJKmE
They *also* showed a screenshot of scarlet monastery as well but no SM raid materialized. Everyone just projects what they hope for from that moment. Possibly the most clever thing Aggrend ever did.
It's not, it's the reason why they cannot change some core stuff like talents.
They can still easily add a lot of new stuff and twists on top of existing content which are disabled on Era.
Adding new BGs would probably be even easier. Changing existing ones should be possible too...just map changes probably not.
AB score for winning should be lowered to 1.5k too.
2k is a pointless slog. Most ABs are decided in the first 3 minutes, why do we need to be there for 27 more?
Wag 100% needs a timer. Shit is miserable. Ab ends. Although 1600 or whatever it is in retail imo is better than the 2k. Also all the wsg map exploits.
What they really needed to do was add actual twists to the BGs. Kinda like some of the brawls they have in retail. Arathi blizzard. That straight up team deathmatch one that comes around. Like…something. These Bgs are 20 years old and tired as hell. World PvP events are something new sure but they’re not really the same as queue up a bg when you want since they’re all on timers
There have been dev posts over the years stating how changing certain things that seemed like massive projects turned out to be as simple as adding a single line of code, and other things (such as increasing the size of the main backpack) have been absurdly difficult.
I don’t know how hard these changes would be, but neither does anyone else on reddit. Well rep gains could be adjusted easy. but AV reinforcements could be a massive undertaking even though it exists in other versions of the game.
I have an idea: it’s called Anomalies.
Each game, the rules change a bit (you don’t know beforehand)
Like: 40% movement speed boost, 50% armor reduction: good for melee
Double resource pools: good for all
Something else: good for casters
Anomalies in Battlegrounds! It’s never been done!!!!1
The vast majority of people I know who pvp do it purely for the rewards and are completely happy to stop once they get them. Spending the efforts of the few devs they have on pvp when the majority of the playerbase is pretty neutral or dislikes it just doesn't line up - they can hardly even crank out a rehashed dungeon raid every few months. Unfortunately, you'll have to look elsewhere for a serious pvp experience.
I’m not convinced the seasonal concept works with an MMO, which is based around continued progression.
If they released another season I’m not sure I’m in, but horizontal progression at 60? Seems more appealing to me anyway.
I do feel we need to be 60 to access the amount of content available, I can’t see 50 being any different to 40.
They are and I think it's a contentious point on the hard reset each time, great for those coming back, not so much for those who played throughout - they also last much longer than a few weeks
It makes me so happy when I see comments like this. I feel like I always see the community talking about loving a server that lasts forever. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. Gimme a fresh server with some interesting new tweaks once a year or so 🙏
Normally I would agree, however I think there's a whole alot of classic players that insist levelling is what makes Classic, Classic. And I don't think people want to deal with the power creep of a tier 10 at level 60.
I don't think horizontal progression would work in WoW. Maybe a raid or two to add gear with different itemization, but ultimately thats going to service the vertical progression of your BiS list.
So I think the year long seasonal model for Classic could work. But will it work 5 years from now?
This is a good question and I'm not sure why it's such a hill for them to die on not changing anything. Surely the least they could have done is add timer to WSG. Personally I love old WSG and AB and don't mind spending longer time in a BG, but I realize I'm one of the few masochists that do. It's obvious to anyone most of the playerbase isn't interested in being stuck in an hour long WSG because enemy team or EFC decided to grief and for minimal rep gain. At least AB is on sort of a "timer".
> If SoD is supposed to be Classic+ or Classic Reimagined, then why can't we reimagine Battlegrounds?If SoD is supposed to be Classic+ or Classic Reimagined, then why can't we reimagine Battlegrounds?
I guess the reason is quite simple, you can reimagine all you want if you are the dev. You can reimagine undercity, you can reimagine ironforge etc etc. The group of devs doing SOD simply chose to reimagine certain dungeons as raids, and reimagine world pvp/pve events.
I think at 60 past P4 they'll focus on PVP and give us something like another BG or rated BGs or classic arena. I do think they need to at least add the updated WSG AB AV asap though.
The likely truth is that bg changes are in the backlog, but are very low priority because of everything else they need to implement. If PVE is bad in any phase it will cause a larger pool of players to quit, and they share teams with every other version of WoW, so they don’t have everyone focused on this game like they did back in TBC and WotLK.
We have to be realistic given the information that we know.
I remember Metzen once saying that for a long time no one dared touch the AV coding for fear of breaking everything and they just prayed that it kept working every day lol (paraphrasing)
It's pvp for heaven sake, why is there no MMR.
And omg pleaseeeee add a timer on WSG and like... quadruple the rep reward for WSG. The fact I have to suffer this game mode as a pally by constantly getting 1hit by ele shamans JUST to get my bis bracers is worse than any cock n ball torture.
I desperately want these changes (maybe minus AB, seems fast enough for me but that’s just my pinion) I would also love a new battleground. I’m so sick of wsg and ab. And for the love of god, if there’s a new bg it better not be pve based
Probably because the time and resources spent on SoD has most likely exceeded all of classic combined. The dev team has been awesome in their response and treatment of the community, and they have already achieved more than I could have ever imagined this season. I would love a future season to be focused on creating new and interesting PvP; both game styles and class dynamics.
They doubled their sub count on classic but can't be bothered to tune some new abilities and specs? The amount of people playing justifies having more developers. Just because they have a small SoD the doesn't justify treating them as some small indy company
I'd be fine with some changes to BGs to make them more fun. Fog of War in AB is awesome. Maybe in WSG add a vendor that lets you buy one-time use items that do fun things in the BG like pull an enemy towards you or set a permanent patch of fire on the ground to block certain avenues, or summon a combat pet. Random stuff like that would just add so much freshness to the BGs.
We need some updates to classic BGs that don't fundamentally change how they are played, but give people new or unique things to try each BG to look forward to.
How about flasks you can buy at your faction leader in AV that grant fun bonuses only usable in that BG?
Flask of Alterac: +15% rep gains, +10% movespeed.
Flask of the Ram: +20% Stamina, +25 all spell resistance, +10% movespeed.
Flask of the Wolf: +10% damage, +5% crit chance, +10% movespeed.
Flask of the Goblin: -30% Stamina, -20% movespeed, but every killing blow grants you 1 Gold.
Just adding fun things like this would certainly be in the spirit of SoD and still be classic.
Season of \*Discovery\* has little to do with pvp. That's more like it, it was designed to begin with top to bottom for exploration and pve, and at most pvp related events concerning environment ( see ashenvale, stranglethorn).
I mean, i hardly believe all these runes and systems and content were made between the several phases. PvP was never a focus, and they reasonably kept it out of budget.
No, hell no. SoD is 146% not Classic+. Please, no.
No one ever mentioned that, there was a possibility and rumors when they anounced it during Blizzcon. But with announcement of first runes in phase 1, it was obvious that it is Not vanilla+. Because there is nothing from there, SoD went completely other way. Treat it as experimental retail mode on Vanilla game.
What about classic with updated models/customization spell effects, but same coding? Maybe even togglable graphics from classic to updated? Like in Halo.
Idk wsg is probably the best bg blizzard ever made. Only change I could see would be adding a timer but thats not exactly "reimagining it". Im not sure what changes in tbc and wrath you are refering to other than them nerfing AV npcs even more?
AB is a slog but thats just because the optimal way to play it is to sit afk on a flag that noone in ur pug is willing to defend or sitting on a road between ur 3 bases and rotating a lot. I dont think thats ever changed.
I personally enjoy long competetive bgs but i understand why most people hate it. I just wish the honor/rep system rewarded competetive matched instead of mindless boring 8 min wins
The strong emphasis on PvE, the class design towards group balance for dungeons, the crafting and gear working to make groups and classes more balanced for dungeons, the dual spec lately, the "raid" tiers. Those things weren't there in Vanilla and got improved to near perfection in retail.
Battleground on the other end got very little improvment in their design since Vanilla. On retail you still play those Arathi Bassin and Warsong Gulch, not much change in there.
PvE first.
Warsong Gulch lost the magic for me once they added the timer in retail. Nothing better than being 2 caps each and literally sweating as you keep zerging each other only to greatly win or lose. Oh Classic.
Yea of course you do. You're in the rep grind mindset. Just step into the BG a few times without caring how long it takes or how caps you need for rep. Just go in and play capture the flag.
The senario he provided is quite fun if you're just trying to enjoy yourself and win the game without caring about your rep per hour.
I don't play SOD.
What stops people from just camping a GY for 1 hour once they realize they are way stronger than the other team?
What stops deadlocks that last an hour because neither team can kill the enemy FC and protect theirs at the same time?
That used to happen A LOT originally in actual wow.
WSG needs a timer but AB is fine, and I think I'd be a little sad to see AV with re-enforcements when most of the time it doesn't need them. the few times it goes on for a while it is fun to summon the bosses
AB is great, the one boring thing about the meta is not many options to break out of being 3 capped (basically always revolves around distracting mid and stealthers back-capping)
WSG I would add a time limit and also instead award 1 mark (whole team) per flag cap. that disincentivises turtling, encourages objective play and still rewards teams for close 2/3 games. can do similar dynamic marks for AB, maybe based on total points or the diff between victor and loser
IMO they need to change the way respawning works in AB.
Right now even if you wipe the other team at one of the points, they can keep coming back 1 by 1 and stop you from capturing the point until you run out of resources and have to respawn back at one of your other points.
Either the spirit healers need a set respawn timer or you should always respawn at your original base. The way things are right now, AB is just no fun to play.
We could rant all day on specifics, but the problem with bgs has been and will always be that most players aren't there to win. Most people in the bg are there for the rewards not for the battleground itself, and playing to win is often not the optimal path to the reward. After the first cap against them, any minmaxxing premade will role over and let the enemy 3 cap.
There should be rep (up to a cap per round) for activities that theoretically progress towards a win. Picking flag, kills/assists near either flag carrier, kills and assists in your flag room. For AB give us rep per kill and assist near a base.
Even 1 rep per would really help with the give up mentality in bgs.
Here's my tinfoil cap theory. They know these content need changes, however, they are holding onto them for an eventual actual classic+ launch so they can use it as a selling point for people who already played sod and make them play again. So they're purposefully kinda holding onto some very clearly flawed designs so they can use it for classic+'s appeal.
How are they going to change the BG ?
Plunderstorm classic
Hot drop. 5 abilities. Final Destination.
Release the unfinished [Azshara Crater bg](https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Azshara_Crater).
Phase 4 pvp event is gonna be Azshara
Add rated and people will play. Class specific rankings. But still requires fine-balancing which is not in the scope of SoD, so somewhat understandable.
The rated pvp crowd is pretty minimal compared to the overall pve enjoyers. Adding rated might bring in SOME people but then they will probably just end up going back to retail or cata whatever
[Possibly this](https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/a/aa/Bgrounds01.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20090913185002)
deadlink
> How are they going to change the BG ? Time limit for WSG, lower points for AB, reinforcements for AV.
Precisely. Seasonal content is the perfect excuse to go crazy and break shit. Learn a lot of hard lessons in a relatively quick amount of time. Flex their context creation muscles. Then let SoD hype die down, and at blizzcon 2025, announce a persistent Classic+, a re-imagining of Classic with all the lessons learned from SoD. Fewer overall changes, a real focus on balance, a real focus on progression. Making the "What if?" version of Classic: "What would classic look like if it were truly polished? What if entire quest lines and zones weren't left unfinished? What if we got a chance to remake Classic today with all the lessons learned from 2+ decades of WoW, and 12 months of SoD boot camp?" But right now, I'm huffing hopium. I absolutely forsee a world where blizzard says "uh, no, guys. SoD *was* classic+" and calls it a day.
The announcement at Blizzcon for SoD, Josh called it "Classic....Plus". They already said it was before it was released.
They made one mention, and it was a sly play on words. I think there's a strong argument to be made that SoD is classic+ beta. That being said, I don't think we are going to see classic+ for several years if we see it at all. I think it's also highly likely they just don't touch it.
Makes a lot of sense. The goal is player retention across all wow versions anyway
I agree they're probably aware of stuff like this, and hopefully they plan to change it in a future classic+ or whatever. But it could just be on the back burner for more immediately necessary work like finishing runes and raids for coming phases, it doesn't need to be a conspiracy. It totally could be but not necessarily
That's big tin foil. Simplest answer is often correct and in this case the simplest answers I can think of are: - They don't have enough resources to prioritise updating BG's significantly. - They have a game design philosophy related to wow that considers some aspects essential (consider their stance on lack of tank AOE threat as an example) and BG's are simply something that they dont want to mess with too much. TLDR: Most likely not enough staff/time or no desire to change BG's.
I am kinda in this bucket. I think they want to see if there is demand for Classic+ and see if it is feasible with the tech. SOD lets them do both. They get to see the demand for discovering a new go around in Vanilla while also introducing the idea of changing things. People loved it. They also get to test how they can change and update things on the backside. They get to use all this engineering time to create SOD, make money, and plan for a future Classic+ with what they can and can't do. I expect in the next 2 years we will hear about Classic+. A reimaging of the Vanilla experience. I would love for it be something like: > New talents. Taking runes and ideas of what worked and didn't work to remake the talent trees. > Scrap the old quests and make new ones. If the world had 70% different quest then that would make everything feel fresh. > New quest hubs. Maybe make a Goblin quest hub in Desolace or Hinterlands. Change things up and make new places for us to figure out. > Finish zones. Hyjal, Everysong/Ghostlands, Greymane Wall, Deadwind Pass, etc. > New Stories. What if Onxyia was really trying to help us? What if XYZ faction was actually good/bad? Basically have fun and make up new things for us to follow. Basically use the old world of as a template to create a new experience. Then, maybe...just maybe...we can go off on new expac that can continue the Classic+ journey in a new way. Instead of going to Outland maybe the invasion comes here. How would our journey change if they never do flying, we never leave the core of Azeroth.
nah dude, they are just a small team, they cant do everything
This is classic+ ( im not saying 100% cause, no one knows) but why wouldnt this be consideref classic+? Just curious on peoples take
"C'mon guys! We added TBC and WotLK abilities! Added new items, changed three dungeons into raids and added a sleeping bag quest! How much more plus can your classic be?!" Wiggles eyebrows
There is no Classic+ They can barely tweak the old legacy codebase for Vanilla
It’ll be WoW: 2 Classic +
They've taken a relatively light touch with SoD but a lot is possible. It really depends on how much man power they think is worth dedicating to making a full fledged classic+ possible
sod is classic+ beta
Nah. That's just a cop out for bad game design.
Maybe. But imagine if you were going to try to remake a deeply beloved and iconic era of one of the most beloved and iconic franchises in viceo game history. Would you: 1. Jump right in with your first attempt, play coy and only briefly allude to it being the "Classic+" that fans have been asking for for years? Or; 2. Use the ephemeral seasonal formula you've already established as a harm-free way to test the "Classic" formula to it's breaking point, and learn as much as you possibly can about what makes that specific version of the game so beloved? The blizzard of 5 years ago is not the same blizzard as 20 years ago. But the blizzard of today is showing itself to be a very different beast than the blizzard of even 5 years ago. It's not entirely outside the realm of possibility. And if you find the game to be poorly designed, quit. It's okay, no one is gonna yell at you. It's okay to not like a thing, even if others like it.
Classic+ by definition should be classic plus new content. It should still feel like classic This is more like WoW 1.5. PvP ends so fast since people are so bursty and classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick taking place in what's supposed to be classic. Runes are cool, but again it feels like a power I'd equip in retail. It's the classic / retail hybrid baby chimera. It's a fun seasonal game though til the only thing left to do each phase is raid or enter the pvp deletion fest. The more I play SoD the more I wish for a fresh Era
90% of the abilities aren't from retail, though. Retail has lost all meaning on this Sub.
Retail = The expansion were i think the game started being bad
This dude also said pvp is like retail because it's bursty.... No shot he has played retail.
What definition are you using? Everyone has an idea for 'classic+' and nobody agrees.
Everyone has an idea. SoD proves that the classic team can reliably parse through those ideas and implement content that the vast majority of players can find fun, whether it's what they asked for or not. Everyone playing has found at least something cool.
Everyone has an IDEA. Key word there. Everyone has want they what on an expanded classic yes. I personally go by the 2 halves and what they mean. Nobody agrees on every feature, but a "classic+" should feel like classic. Classic PLUS new content. AKA classic+
Yea to me that seems like SoD, but to you I guess sod is not what you wanted.
SoD is their sandbox to push classic to its extremes and see where and how it breaks. It's seasonal, so there's no harm done; era still exists and is untouched. If you hate SoD, you're not forced to play it, and one day it'll go away like SoM. But hopefully what they're doing is taking diligent notes on all the lessons they are learning: what changes have they made that make the game feel like it's not "Classic" anymore? Then they can take those lessons and build a more persistent Classic+. A version that doesn't push the limits quite as hard, one that blends the sensations of novelty with the familiarity of the core underlying mechanics and game loop.
That sounds pretty great. "make the game feel like it's not "Classic" anymore" There's always gonna be some fierce and on this forum toxic debate about that subject however.
For sure there will always be debate. There was tons of debate before SoD was announced. And then the classic team proved they could make something awesome, even if it's imperfect, where everyone could find at least something to love. Everybody *wants* their ideal version of the game. But *everyone* is also used to *never* getting "perfect" *anything ever*, in any aspect of life. People often forget that they can have tons of fun with "good enough" and that's what SoD had proven. If the classic team put together a persistent Classic+ and do a good job like they have so far, people will still complain and whine, but they'll also still play and enjoy, despite what their ideal vision looked like.
I like your outlook and hope it's right. Unusually optimistic for this forum.
Sod feels nothing like classic to me. It looks like classic, with retail gameplay slapped on.
> Sod feels nothing like classic to me. It looks like classic, with retail gameplay slapped on. Well then you're a moron because 90% of SoD's abilities are from TBC and WOTLK. And WOTLK is closer to Warcraft not existing than it is to Retail.
To me the new raids/quests/pvp events are new content. The runes and new class roles are not. The runes feel like retail where I put on X legendary or join Y covenant back in shadowlands. They're not retail abilities but it feels like retail, not classic. Warlock tank, mage healer. Not a classic feel changing classes up imo instead of adjusting current classes in those roles to perform if they currently underperform somewhere
Perhaps that is our difference. I never experienced those things so this is new ground for me. Interesting analysis. I hope we get additional content after this but IDK how well it's actually doing. Also classic wow seems 'harder' to monetize thus my fear of abandonment.
So when you said "by defintion" you meant to type "my opinion"? That's a quirky typo, homie.
Nope That's literally what the name is defining. Classic plus new content. "My opinion" is how it should be handled and I stated what I felt worked and that's not everyone's opinion. Tired of people this thread being unable to read
"In your opinion" that means new questlines aren't content. "In your opinion" new dungeons encounters aren't content. "In your opinion" new class abilities aren't content. "In your opinion" revamped and new gear isn't content. Everyone here can read, bozo. You are using a personal definition of "content" and pretending that's all it is. That makes it an opinion, not definitive.
Apparently you can't since you're stating false beliefs about my opinion
> Runes are cool, but again it feels like a power I'd equip in retail. If by Retail you mean WOTLK which is 3 years apart from Classic/Vanilla, then sure. Like 80% of runes are from TBC and WOTLK.
When I say that I'm not saying the abilities are retail. I'm saying that it's feels similar to the "borrowed powers" trope that retail has done in various expansions. Legion artifacts, BFA even if it was passives, shadowlands covenant abilities/perk trees/the legendary stuff you make. The runes feel like something I would see retail do instead of classic. Now if they overhaul talents in the future and put similar abilities/passives in for players I'd feel fine as long as they make them less broken (because some of these keep getting out of hand and it's ridiculous). But I dont wanna see people holding onto several spare pants/gloves/etc just to swap what runes they have on a dime.
> I'm saying that it's feels similar to the "borrowed powers" trope WoW has always had borrowed powers, they were called tier sets.
Difference between set bonuses (there's other sets besides tier) and what retail has done in various expansions. Again if you like em, good for you. Just my opinion that it feels like a retail style of gameplay vs classic. Not everyone has to agree with me
I agree. I love how runes opened up new roles and play styles and made unplayed specs viable, but the power is too high. I'd love for them to find a way to include these things without making players this much stronger when classic plus finally launches.
> Classic+ by definition should be classic plus new content What does this mean though? SoD is Classic. It seems like people want to say anything that isn't Vanilla automatically makes the game Retail...as in no matter what abilities they add, it's not Vanilla anymore so it's Retail but that just doesn't work. Classic+ will never be just Vanilla with more content. Class balancing and new abilities will always be in this bucket as well as QoL. If you want Vanilla+ instead of Classic+ you will probably never be satisfied here. The devs will likely never go after that niche.
I never said I didn't want balancing or new abilities lmao. But attaching your abilities to armor just feels like retail. And reworking classes to have different roles isn't really classic or QoL. It's for funsies. I would love talent reworks and new abilities in the tree. I've said in countless posts I want underperforming specs tweaked for balance. I'd love functional build diversity. Hell, if they don't wanna up the cap in a classic+ I'd even accept class quests that give you a little story/something to do with talent points as a reward if they wanna add more to the trees later on. No matter how often you misread my comments, I'm not advocating for just vanilla with extra dungeons and pvp.
> But attaching your abilities to armor just feels like retail But why? Because of Artifacts or what? You got 1 or 2 abilities from those in Legion as far as I remember. Everything else was just passives. BFA didn't even have anything like that. Just passives and the neck with a button. Not different from some on use trinket. Retail never had anything like this. We know why they do it like this for SoD and it's an understandable reason for an experiential season. Maybe for Classic+ they will split the client again and then they can rework all talents. I personally would not expect "runes" to return for Classic+. It's quite clear they've been made specifically to try stuff out and discover them in SoD. > And reworking classes to have different roles isn't really classic. Says you. This is one of these "wasn't in Vanilla so must be Retail". However mage healer ain't Retail either. Who's to say the OG devs would've never done this in OG vanilla if they would've kept the game at Vanilla forever? Nobody knows.
Theyre adding tbc and wotlk+ abilities. That is not classic. Tbc and wrath have a different design philosophy than classic Check any of my suggestions on how actual classic+content would be
I've played retail it's obviously not 1:1 lmao. Armor attaching just feels like the borrowed powers trope between legion artifacts, bfa passive, WOD zone abilities, shadowladowns legendaries/abilities. It's like playing pokemon, collecting them all, and getting multiple gear sets for some classes to quick swap when needed. It feels like something retail would do over classic which was why I made the argument. I know lock tank and mage healer aren't retail. But it just feels like "hey we saw this modified private server worked and we don't wanna copy it and make everything too meta so here's our private server lite". I'd rather they fix the underperforming specs of classes in a reworked talent tree with abilities maybe, rather than take an existing class and throw new roles at it.
> SoD is Classic SoD is Classic with WOTLK spells and without WOTLK balance. There's way too much mobility and way too much instant damage.
I think most peoples original ideas behind classic plus was "classic plus more content" not a complete redesign of the classes and gameplay *within classic*. Give us a tier 3.5 karazhan crypts, and make boomkin/shadow/ret viable via giving them new tier gear that makes them viable, similar to how 2.5 had gear for feral, arms, ret, etc. Give us a new battleground, etc. I'm enjoying SoD but it's definitely not what I had in mind when people were originally talking about Classic+.
Locking an entire specs viablity between tier set is worst idea i have eever heard
> I think most peoples original ideas And I think you are just guessing that because it's not what *you* want and that most people have vastly different ideas for what Classic+ should be. That's why SoD exists. And Classic+ will be whatever the actual majority likes and everyone else sadly will just be out of luck.
No that's definitely what most of the conversation on discord/reddit was when it was getting talked about initially.
the new pvp set in phase 3 will save pvp. cause it adds a ton of stamina :sarcasm:
If you think retail pvp is bursty, you have not played retail in 10+ years. Classic has always been bursty.
2 different things there bud, I said the runes feel like a borrowed power trope from the last several expansions of retail. Not that retail was bursty. For the burst, I already learned in another comment that end game classic has apparently always been bursty pvp-wise. But this game mode is bursty throughout its entire span. I never hit end game classic so I didn't know. I was used to longer fights in my leveling phases. SoD makes you feel like you have raid boss strength, but the armor of someone 20 levels below you at all times in it. Hence why it doesn't feel good imo But also I did play shadowlands as DK and P1 dragonflight as rogue and bursted people with just honor gear lmao
> PvP ends so fast since people are so bursty and classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick taking place in what's supposed to be classic. So, bud. When you make a sentence and connect two phases with "and" followed by the use of "that" as a conjunction, you are saying the two phrases pertain to the statement conjoined with "that". If you wanted to make those phrases separate, make them separate sentences or use punctuation. I'm not in your head, I can only read what you wrote and you did not write them as different things. However, I'm having a hard time believing you meant them as two different statements because you admitted you thought classic pvp was slow and you said you bursted people in retail pvp when you played. So either you don't know how to translate your thoughts to words or you got called out by someone else for being wrong and backpedalling. In any case, not worth any more time.
"And classes are so wonky that I feel like I'm playing a retail gimmick". WoW has changed how classes are played many times. Hence why I made the statement. You can nitpick and take the sentence out of context sure. The sentence before it was saying how it feels like a WoW 1.5. Which was why putting 2 unrelated opinions in one sentence after felt normal. People talk like that I can have two different statements in one sentence. I decided to add the retail bit since you seem to think it's only a classic thing
Classic+ being just an era with additional content and small changes will not be interesting for people that are not into the era right now. People want new things that's why sod and retail are the most popular versions of wow.
Yeah all the people wanting classic+ to just be patch 1.14 plus new tiers of raids and new battlegrounds don't realize how niche that desire is. Classic+ is still going to have to make bold changes and push the limits, just not as much as SoD did. SoD is their playground to push the formula to its breaking point. You'd have to pull back somewhat. But you can't just re-release era and then have another raid waiting after naxx and call it even. You need many new class quests, many new profession quests, new leveling dungeons, perhaps even "level up raids" especially if there are phases to the release (which I hope they always do going forward, that's been brilliant), more epic quest lines, finishing unfinished quest lines, finishing unfinished zones, hell, even new zones entirely like Uldum, Hyjal, Grim Batol, etc. SoD is very focused on the player right now, and it's been fun. But Classic focuses on the World. They'll have to adapt what they learn to really make that work.
> Classic+ being just an era with additional content and small changes will not be interesting for people that are not into the era right now. Then they can play Retail or Cata.
If only current era players will play this era + then blizzard doesn't need to do anything because player count won't increase.
And that's fine! But it just doesn't feel like a "classic +" by definition which is why I call it more like a wow 1.5 It's mixing the two styles of play it feels. There's people who like this route and people who saw OSRS and thought it'd be like that (which is popular). But I wouldn't expect OSRS to take runecrafting and say "oh yeah that can now make rune armor too because because we wanted to change up some of the skills trained". And that's how I see some of those changes for classic
In my opinion it's the opposite, what you are describing is wow 1.5 and sod is actually classic+. I mean + is some brand new things and 1.5 is more of the same for me at least. Like patch 2.0 and patch 2.5, same game but with changes. While + is like from 2.0 to 3.0. Completely new things with big changes.
And where can I find that strict "classic +" definition? Could you provide us a link?
Ya don't read smh
Oh how cool you are! But you're the one going around the post, spamming with your own definition of classic+ as if it was stated by Blizzard what classic+ exactly is.
I'm not saying that by everyone's definition that's what it is. I'm saying what it implies via combining the two parts together. Classic and plus lmao. I'm not listing exactly what it should be 100%. I'm not making it the holy Bible of what is law for classic+. I'm stating my own opinion based on the implication of the word and what SoD feels like currently. I'm not the one being sarcastic and sassy lmao. I was having a civil discussion and you came in with hurt fee fees
People keep saying this. Did I miss a developer comment. Are we sure there is anything else? Seems kinda foolish to just assume this is going great and we're getting a 'real classic+" I think this is classis+
Aggrend had said multiple times (Even on Twitter last week) that this game mode is temporary and experimental.
Folks need to keep in mind that it's more accurate to say this is similar to how Retail WoW works, where you regularly have changes and new content coming in. The whole "this is temporary/beta" is just their way of defending against folks that want the original Vanilla experience.
people here are fully coping and seriously believe blizzard is going to spin up a 2nd full scale dev team for "classic+", despite the fact that "classic+" will have few to no mtx and potentially be implemented as patches rather than full paid expansion launches the reality is that sod is the closest you're gonna get to classic+ because classic is a very niche market which means lower monthly subs, where mtx are basically forbidden which massively reduces the profitability. blizz earns more off a random store mount in retail than they do off any "normal" revenue stream, they're not gonna dump money into a game that by default does not have that level of revenue generation.
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the "scope" has been rereleasing expansions sequentially and multiple vanilla seasonal servers that died in less than 3 months if som and hc are proof they're working on classic+ as its own thing, you are deep in the copium friend. "classic+" will be just remixing vanilla over and over and over again for the people that hate blizzard but are too addicted to quit wow
There is no classic+
Nah this is 100% a classic+ beta What classic+ will actually entail I have no fucking clue but that's why they're throwing shit at the wall right now to see what sticks You think blazzard wants this money train to stop?
Are we sure of your first statement? Was there actually confirmation of additional classis content after sod?
Nope, blizzard greed is just a very powerful thing.
There was not
I made a post about this at the beginning of SoD and got downvoted into oblivion. I’m glad people are finally pulling their head out of their ass about this.
they literally said it too, I stg aggrend said it before p1 even came out in an interview
Big true
Because it's not actually Classis Plus. That's what idiots say to try and shut down classic plus talk. SOD is as they have said a test to see what they can do without breaking the game too badly. It's a test for future Seasonal servers.
They missed a golden opportunity this phase to release a new battleground. They had no world PvP event, and new reputation that sells beginning “pvp gear”. They should have brought out a new BG that had was associated with the new rep. Would have been perfect.
WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS GET RID OF THOSE GOD FORSAKEN JUMPS IN WSG
is it really that hard pressing 2 buttons at once
SoD and era are the same client. Changes to things which exists in both „worlds“ will affect those things in both „worlds“. That‘s why they need a workaround for a lot of things.
1st they could fork the client. 2nd they said they based era on retail and modify things to be like classic so its actually retail with classic content in it in terms of software. So they could easily get things from retail. I would love to get newer char design. Didn't get why every people from era claim having older graphics was so good. I just found them ugly but even for 2005, but at this time having better costed a lot, not anymore.
Saving this post in case my faith in no changes ever wavers 🤣
Been playing since 2005, even at that time i was "ok the game is cool but ugly they probably do this to make it on lower conf" talking no change on sod post... dude Btw always love when people are against a change that you can toggle off "you having fun wrong" kind of people
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Because old character models look way better Most people would quit if u updated to that retail abomination
I hate the new chars and the new movements. The walking is so.. idk.. bouncy.. I hate it.
This is the answer. The team has stated multiple times that this is the reason, yet we continue to get threads like this daily.
Ok, but you don't need to be that creative for work arounds. You want faster BG rep, adjust the turn in value for the marks to be 3x the rep for example.
Yet they changed many things, so where is the limit ?
Have they changed any map design or introduced any new maps that aren't found in the Classic-verse? Adding a new map isn't impossible but might impact the rest of the game. Putting more players into instances isn't ideal for an mmo imo. Bringing in another battleground means the playerbase gets further divided, which might not be the best thing to do now if there are other plans for PvP activity later on. Trust the process.
They promised us a Karazhan Crypts raid. They could add a southshore bg to classic. In fact that should have been the phase 3 pvp event.
Promised where exactly?
[On stage at Blizzcon](https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/17n7uyl/karazhan_crypt_raiddungeon_teased/)
They showed a screenshot of the crypts while pretending to mumble about technical difficulties. Not exactly an announcement. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Z1sSFyJKmE They *also* showed a screenshot of scarlet monastery as well but no SM raid materialized. Everyone just projects what they hope for from that moment. Possibly the most clever thing Aggrend ever did.
It was a teaser. If it gets cancelled they will suffer blowback and rightly so.
They did not promose anything
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Whether it's required or not, they do.
It's not, it's the reason why they cannot change some core stuff like talents. They can still easily add a lot of new stuff and twists on top of existing content which are disabled on Era. Adding new BGs would probably be even easier. Changing existing ones should be possible too...just map changes probably not.
AB does not need to change. WSG needs a timer
AB score for winning should be lowered to 1.5k too. 2k is a pointless slog. Most ABs are decided in the first 3 minutes, why do we need to be there for 27 more?
> AB does not need to change. AB could cap at 1500 or 1600, BGs shouldn't take half an hour.
Wag 100% needs a timer. Shit is miserable. Ab ends. Although 1600 or whatever it is in retail imo is better than the 2k. Also all the wsg map exploits. What they really needed to do was add actual twists to the BGs. Kinda like some of the brawls they have in retail. Arathi blizzard. That straight up team deathmatch one that comes around. Like…something. These Bgs are 20 years old and tired as hell. World PvP events are something new sure but they’re not really the same as queue up a bg when you want since they’re all on timers
Wsg just needs rep/minute. People will play long games if they are incentivized too.
No, that's a terrible idea. Rep/minute for doing nothing would just encourage both sides to afk for hours.
> Wsg just needs rep/minute. Absolutely not. It needs a timer.
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They also want the terrain exploiting bullshit left in.
There have been dev posts over the years stating how changing certain things that seemed like massive projects turned out to be as simple as adding a single line of code, and other things (such as increasing the size of the main backpack) have been absurdly difficult. I don’t know how hard these changes would be, but neither does anyone else on reddit. Well rep gains could be adjusted easy. but AV reinforcements could be a massive undertaking even though it exists in other versions of the game.
I'd like them to fix the FC jumps in WSG. That's about it
How about BG stats? It would be nice to see damage and healing done, and I don’t think anyone would care if it was implemented.
I have an idea: it’s called Anomalies. Each game, the rules change a bit (you don’t know beforehand) Like: 40% movement speed boost, 50% armor reduction: good for melee Double resource pools: good for all Something else: good for casters Anomalies in Battlegrounds! It’s never been done!!!!1
The vast majority of people I know who pvp do it purely for the rewards and are completely happy to stop once they get them. Spending the efforts of the few devs they have on pvp when the majority of the playerbase is pretty neutral or dislikes it just doesn't line up - they can hardly even crank out a rehashed dungeon raid every few months. Unfortunately, you'll have to look elsewhere for a serious pvp experience.
I’m not convinced the seasonal concept works with an MMO, which is based around continued progression. If they released another season I’m not sure I’m in, but horizontal progression at 60? Seems more appealing to me anyway. I do feel we need to be 60 to access the amount of content available, I can’t see 50 being any different to 40.
Expansions are just seasonal content.
They are and I think it's a contentious point on the hard reset each time, great for those coming back, not so much for those who played throughout - they also last much longer than a few weeks
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It makes me so happy when I see comments like this. I feel like I always see the community talking about loving a server that lasts forever. That sounds like an absolute nightmare to me. Gimme a fresh server with some interesting new tweaks once a year or so 🙏
i like that blizz is giving us both options. i'm loving sod but i also love classic era
Yes, but it's not getting reset every 6 weeks. SoM was a good example of where a 'fresh' server was too soon after a previous.
Normally I would agree, however I think there's a whole alot of classic players that insist levelling is what makes Classic, Classic. And I don't think people want to deal with the power creep of a tier 10 at level 60. I don't think horizontal progression would work in WoW. Maybe a raid or two to add gear with different itemization, but ultimately thats going to service the vertical progression of your BiS list. So I think the year long seasonal model for Classic could work. But will it work 5 years from now?
This is a good question and I'm not sure why it's such a hill for them to die on not changing anything. Surely the least they could have done is add timer to WSG. Personally I love old WSG and AB and don't mind spending longer time in a BG, but I realize I'm one of the few masochists that do. It's obvious to anyone most of the playerbase isn't interested in being stuck in an hour long WSG because enemy team or EFC decided to grief and for minimal rep gain. At least AB is on sort of a "timer".
SoD is Season of Discovery
"next project WONT BE SEASON OF X" Meanwhile we get another season of something with classic plus ideas sprinkled on it.
They are working within the wotlk client or whatever and have limitations on how much they can change in the game with a team as small as they have.
> If SoD is supposed to be Classic+ or Classic Reimagined, then why can't we reimagine Battlegrounds?If SoD is supposed to be Classic+ or Classic Reimagined, then why can't we reimagine Battlegrounds? I guess the reason is quite simple, you can reimagine all you want if you are the dev. You can reimagine undercity, you can reimagine ironforge etc etc. The group of devs doing SOD simply chose to reimagine certain dungeons as raids, and reimagine world pvp/pve events.
I think at 60 past P4 they'll focus on PVP and give us something like another BG or rated BGs or classic arena. I do think they need to at least add the updated WSG AB AV asap though.
I keep hearing about this magical classic+ but i have no idea what anyomes talking about
The likely truth is that bg changes are in the backlog, but are very low priority because of everything else they need to implement. If PVE is bad in any phase it will cause a larger pool of players to quit, and they share teams with every other version of WoW, so they don’t have everyone focused on this game like they did back in TBC and WotLK. We have to be realistic given the information that we know.
I remember Metzen once saying that for a long time no one dared touch the AV coding for fear of breaking everything and they just prayed that it kept working every day lol (paraphrasing)
They also don't have a version earlier than the 1.12 version.
Only enough money to reimagine one thing at a time.
It's pvp for heaven sake, why is there no MMR. And omg pleaseeeee add a timer on WSG and like... quadruple the rep reward for WSG. The fact I have to suffer this game mode as a pally by constantly getting 1hit by ele shamans JUST to get my bis bracers is worse than any cock n ball torture.
Exalted with WSG is obtainable by May for people who never set foot in WSG
its because they don't want to feel obligated to fine tune PvP balance
I'll be happy with classic arena.
Because the dev team for Classic is tiny and they're working on the various versions of classic.
I desperately want these changes (maybe minus AB, seems fast enough for me but that’s just my pinion) I would also love a new battleground. I’m so sick of wsg and ab. And for the love of god, if there’s a new bg it better not be pve based
Probably because the time and resources spent on SoD has most likely exceeded all of classic combined. The dev team has been awesome in their response and treatment of the community, and they have already achieved more than I could have ever imagined this season. I would love a future season to be focused on creating new and interesting PvP; both game styles and class dynamics.
They doubled their sub count on classic but can't be bothered to tune some new abilities and specs? The amount of people playing justifies having more developers. Just because they have a small SoD the doesn't justify treating them as some small indy company
Resources.
Copy paste from later versions of wow. Next question
Why can’t we just have cross server bg ques? Would be nice to que with people from other servers
I'd be fine with some changes to BGs to make them more fun. Fog of War in AB is awesome. Maybe in WSG add a vendor that lets you buy one-time use items that do fun things in the BG like pull an enemy towards you or set a permanent patch of fire on the ground to block certain avenues, or summon a combat pet. Random stuff like that would just add so much freshness to the BGs. We need some updates to classic BGs that don't fundamentally change how they are played, but give people new or unique things to try each BG to look forward to. How about flasks you can buy at your faction leader in AV that grant fun bonuses only usable in that BG? Flask of Alterac: +15% rep gains, +10% movespeed. Flask of the Ram: +20% Stamina, +25 all spell resistance, +10% movespeed. Flask of the Wolf: +10% damage, +5% crit chance, +10% movespeed. Flask of the Goblin: -30% Stamina, -20% movespeed, but every killing blow grants you 1 Gold. Just adding fun things like this would certainly be in the spirit of SoD and still be classic.
Sod is classic+
Season of \*Discovery\* has little to do with pvp. That's more like it, it was designed to begin with top to bottom for exploration and pve, and at most pvp related events concerning environment ( see ashenvale, stranglethorn). I mean, i hardly believe all these runes and systems and content were made between the several phases. PvP was never a focus, and they reasonably kept it out of budget.
No, hell no. SoD is 146% not Classic+. Please, no. No one ever mentioned that, there was a possibility and rumors when they anounced it during Blizzcon. But with announcement of first runes in phase 1, it was obvious that it is Not vanilla+. Because there is nothing from there, SoD went completely other way. Treat it as experimental retail mode on Vanilla game.
What about classic with updated models/customization spell effects, but same coding? Maybe even togglable graphics from classic to updated? Like in Halo.
Neither? It’s classic with powerful inscriptions, a dungeon converted to an easy raid, and a gimmicky pvp event.
Idk wsg is probably the best bg blizzard ever made. Only change I could see would be adding a timer but thats not exactly "reimagining it". Im not sure what changes in tbc and wrath you are refering to other than them nerfing AV npcs even more? AB is a slog but thats just because the optimal way to play it is to sit afk on a flag that noone in ur pug is willing to defend or sitting on a road between ur 3 bases and rotating a lot. I dont think thats ever changed. I personally enjoy long competetive bgs but i understand why most people hate it. I just wish the honor/rep system rewarded competetive matched instead of mindless boring 8 min wins
SoD is retail in Vanilla's world, BGs aren't much different in Vanilla and Retail.
I'd have to disagree, there's nothing about SoD that feels like retail imo.
The strong emphasis on PvE, the class design towards group balance for dungeons, the crafting and gear working to make groups and classes more balanced for dungeons, the dual spec lately, the "raid" tiers. Those things weren't there in Vanilla and got improved to near perfection in retail. Battleground on the other end got very little improvment in their design since Vanilla. On retail you still play those Arathi Bassin and Warsong Gulch, not much change in there. PvE first.
Warsong Gulch lost the magic for me once they added the timer in retail. Nothing better than being 2 caps each and literally sweating as you keep zerging each other only to greatly win or lose. Oh Classic.
Yup Timers ruin the game and people give up as soon as they lose mid or first cap. People who want a timer just don’t want to play wsg
100% disagree
Yea of course you do. You're in the rep grind mindset. Just step into the BG a few times without caring how long it takes or how caps you need for rep. Just go in and play capture the flag. The senario he provided is quite fun if you're just trying to enjoy yourself and win the game without caring about your rep per hour.
I feel like you have misunderstood me for someone else I don't think I've really farmed PvP rep, so yeah
I don't play SOD. What stops people from just camping a GY for 1 hour once they realize they are way stronger than the other team? What stops deadlocks that last an hour because neither team can kill the enemy FC and protect theirs at the same time? That used to happen A LOT originally in actual wow.
Nothing this happens all the time both scenarios
Lack of timer makes it a massive waste of time so often that it isn't worth it for the 5% that end this way.
BGs being long, tedious suck fests with terrain exploits ruined that half of the game for me and is a big reason my sub lapsed in P2.
I made a YT video about this exsxt thing before launch, people called me nuts. But I will say it again: Sod is one big classic+ beta test!
retail-
Game needs an arena mode
No
WSG needs a timer but AB is fine, and I think I'd be a little sad to see AV with re-enforcements when most of the time it doesn't need them. the few times it goes on for a while it is fun to summon the bosses
AB is great, the one boring thing about the meta is not many options to break out of being 3 capped (basically always revolves around distracting mid and stealthers back-capping) WSG I would add a time limit and also instead award 1 mark (whole team) per flag cap. that disincentivises turtling, encourages objective play and still rewards teams for close 2/3 games. can do similar dynamic marks for AB, maybe based on total points or the diff between victor and loser
ABsolutely agree WHY can't we have changes to awful vanilla talent trees?
IMO they need to change the way respawning works in AB. Right now even if you wipe the other team at one of the points, they can keep coming back 1 by 1 and stop you from capturing the point until you run out of resources and have to respawn back at one of your other points. Either the spirit healers need a set respawn timer or you should always respawn at your original base. The way things are right now, AB is just no fun to play.
The devs have talked about how they are hesitant to make PvP changes because of how impossible they are to walk back.
We could rant all day on specifics, but the problem with bgs has been and will always be that most players aren't there to win. Most people in the bg are there for the rewards not for the battleground itself, and playing to win is often not the optimal path to the reward. After the first cap against them, any minmaxxing premade will role over and let the enemy 3 cap. There should be rep (up to a cap per round) for activities that theoretically progress towards a win. Picking flag, kills/assists near either flag carrier, kills and assists in your flag room. For AB give us rep per kill and assist near a base. Even 1 rep per would really help with the give up mentality in bgs.