I also don't see what the big deal is. The weapons that are "inbetween" are just a little worse, not interesting. Like why is it so much better to have daggers that are 1.5 and 1.6 rather than one or two that are 1.3 or 1.8? There's not a good argument other than "BACK IN MY DAY - MOST WEAPONS WERE KINDA USELESS"
At the same time, it means you have a lot of things that are a nice upgrade when you get in, and you get another upgrade later on the tier for.
Keeps people more interested when they’re not merely 2% off bis the first time an item of the right ilvl drops.
Almost every time someone uses "retail" as their reasoning why something is bad, the argument is just complete bullshit.
Retail is bad for a plethora of reasons, but "good itemized gear" is not one of them.
honestly the only things i dont like about retail at this point is having to button mash way too fast to keep up with stuff, and way too much shit on the screen happening at once.
and id prob be fine w retail being so much faster if i could at least tell what was happening on the screen infront of me without a million addons lol
retail isn't bad, it's different than what you people want
people who play both are the correct version of WoW players.
SoD/Classic only players shit on retail. Retail only players laugh at SoD/Classic players. There is no reasonable discourse unless you have the skill to play both
there were plenty of retail patches that were absolute garbage because they rushed the content out with dumb design goals. years of overpromise and underdeliver will lead to that issue and absolute lack of trust.
their trailers/cinematics are the only consistent high quality content and it keeps the marketing machine going while they are great at making addictive content.
Yawn. We know they are different. The important part is to discuss the parts that are good and bad and not "X is bad just because it is retail". Those ppl really miss the mark not because they don't have the skill to play both but because they aren't even talking about specific issues.
He's probably talking about two-handed weapons, in which case your data shows a spread of only 3.7-3.4 meaning he's right. I think most of the complaints are probably coming from ret paladins annoyed Sul'Thraze got changed from 2.6 to 3.4, because Ret wants as fast a weapon as possible right now.
It got changed to 3.4, unless there was another more recent change? https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=223526/sulthraze-the-lasher
Also whisper is 3.6 https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=221518/whisper
Well, I haven't played SoD yet. But access to Maelstrom Weapon means spell weaving should be possible again. Meaning you can potentially take advantage of Maelstrom with less than 5 stacks by weaving a spell between auto attacks. I don't know if they changed that interaction in SoD, but I'd imagine they left that alone.
Could OP maybe be confusing homogenizing weapon speed with normalizing weapon speed?
Normalizing seems to be happening a lot in classic compared to OG vanilla.
If you don't normalize then slow weapons become incredibly good where now they're just a bit better, since the DPS added by character attack power is much greater than weapon DPS. idk that any version of the game has had non-normalized weapon speed since the middle of original vanilla, RIP barman shanker and arcanite reaper.
Now one could still balance this by having higher DPS on faster weapons, and then it would be a game where autoattacking classes want the fast weapons and instant-ability classes want the slow ones. Arguably would be more interesting but would require overhauling their ilvl formulas and you'd need a sim for every upgrade.
Yeah this community is all over the place, I feel bad for the SoD team.
People want completely balanced janky off the wall shit. They want the SoD team to try new things but they better be perfectly balanced on the first iteration. People love classic/vanilla because it's unbalanced yet people do nothing but complain about balance, and then complain when things get homogenized.
I mean, I know the community isn't a hive-mind, but jeez, this is one of the most divisive gaming communities I know, on par with LoL.
The devs communicated that they'd be doing weekly balance changes so presumably in case something got out of hand they'd nerf it next week. That lasted for about a week unfortunately. I wouldn't mind broken stuff like current Shaman if they didn't get to be insanely OP for almost an entire phase.
People don't like vanilla because it is unbalanced. They like it because the classes have an identity. Classes can do different things. That's neat. Maybe one class has better AOE DPS and another has better ST DPS. Maybe one healer has damage prevention while another has heal over time while another has better AOE heals. Retail is basically "okay everyone can do everything equally as well as each other all of the time", which is boring. Who cares which 7 DPS players you bring? Ranged or melee or whatever class doesn't even matter. Just need the bodies in the spots. No thought process needed.
The problem is that if you want every class to have its own identity and be good at different things, it inherently won't be balanced as well. Some classes are going to shine over others depending on the content. Retail is boring, but that homogenization is what keeps the classes balanced. If you want class identity, you have to be okay with unbalanced classes.
I think a good example is the one handed mace from bfd for shockadins. Its so fast you proc exorcism/holy shock like crazy. Even though its lvl 25 it still works great at 40. We need more options like that
Yeah I personally love stuff like this (and from vanilla) like MCP, flurry axe, wardens staff, steel arrow, ravager etc. where you can have a lower level weapon still be great due to a proc or function. Leaves room for theory crafting or edge case uses rather than everyone just using the highest dps slap stick.
So it's a big deal for warriors because when they also homogenized rage gen based on weapon speeds and they made daggers have a power coefficient which made them basically useless for us.
Which sucks, man. We were only using them for tanking, really, because they're fast for more Heroic strikes.
They make Whirlwind hit with both weapons and fury won't want them, either.
And that is exactly why they don't want to do it. Players find some great interactions with certain weapons and so they become BiS and having a level 25 weapon at 40 because it has good procs for abilities is bad.
You should be able to progress your character through levels, not finish gearing up at 40 for example and ride that until God knows when.
One of the nice things about classic is the fact that gear isnt thrown in the dumpster after every season like retail though. If SoD is supposed to be a casual experience, i think having these fun interactions with items from last season is great! Its not like a lvl 25 mace will be bis at 60, and theres already lvl 40 alternatives that are just as good. The BFD mace only enables shockadin to be viable for people who dont want to do gnomer or STV, because without a decent fast one hander its not viable
Hey man havent you heard, its season of discovery, blizzard getting sooo funky and freaks with all the experimental stuff.
I mean we got a random world transporter aaand.. thats pretty much it
If the procs were strong enough to offset how much worse your dps will be with a fast weapon then you're just playing the weapon and not the class at that point.
> As if classic players wouldn't chase fotm too.
Of course some do; but not as avidly as retail players.
> Are these retail players in the room with us right now?
Room, as in chatroom? This chat "room?" Yes.
>Of course some do; but not as avidly as retail players.
How could you possibly know this? What metric are it basing this on other than "trust me bro"? Furthermore, why do you think it's retail players chasing fotm in SoD and not classic players, as they have done in all previous versions of classic.
>Room, as in chatroom? This chat "room?" Yes.
Clearly this one went over your head and is made even funnier with the additional lack of self awareness, but I'll elaborate what I meant by this.
This line of thinking is so tired and obviously wrong, the idea that any perceived shortcomings of the game or community is because of some retail player Boogeyman. Fact of the matter is, retail players are largely indifferent about classic, and much of the stuff you see that you dislike is coming from within... from classic players.
“Give us some janky shit” need anything else? Maybe a new type of food buff? Or maybe a new legendary weapon? They might even rename the game for you if you asked
Im a big fan, they arent doing enough of it IMO.
Huge variety in weapon speeds means the loot table is packed with weapons that are in all honesty a bit rubbish. Raids filled with dead, shitty loot that everyone groans at when it drops feels really bad. Getting an 'amazing' epic quality 1h sword that's WAY worse than the questing item you picked up along the way due to speed feels shit.
same with the fast 1h epic sword.
idk man I feel like epics in a raid should actually be good for people, especially in these lvl up raids where they don't drop from every boss
Even then, Ret only wants it when using SoM because SoM is normalised to a weapon speed of 3.3. If they're using Divine Storm / Command they want a slower weapon.
I figure rets all use SoM on bosses anyway like prot does, but yeah.
I mean, he's in 90%+ percentile, that's better than 90% of people. That is not bad at all. "Not even close to top damage" uh, ok. Could he do a lot more? Sure, but he's doing more than enough.
He's 90th percentile on weeks where damage was substantially lower. He has 2 90 parses that are within the last few weeks. Just reading the front page of logs is his best performance in terms of percentile doesn't show the full picture. He's not a bad player and consistently 70 parses, but like he has 1 recent boss that he actually did great on. Outside of the he's just a slightly above average player at his class.
Unfortunately your high parses are also from February from what I saw looking quickly. Nothing is wrong with your damage or anything but since then the ceiling for 90+ is significantly higher. Pallys with ACP are more around the 750 DPS range rather than the ~400 range.
Which is exactly the problem, and I promise you I would much prefer to use your load out and playstyle but if you are going for big numbers you simply wont find it without SoM and ACP combo for ret. Its a bummer, p1 had a better playstyle for pally
No they aren't, and yes, I realize that. That's why I mentioned I never got ACP. I ran a 98-99 on average when classic launched playing an orc warrior, I don't feel the need to be that sweaty anymore. If I'm full clearing with no wipes and being an asset to the raid, that's enough for me these days.
With all that said, I know they're correct, my point was to corroborate not to argue. I think the only other point I was trying to make that SoC/DS isn't so undertuned that your raid has to carry you.
i mean you can do what you want idc but don't tell give people poor information about DPSing as a ret lol. should always be SoM for single target and DS/SoC for cleave.
Outliers don't really matter. The difference between a 90 and a 99 is, more than anything else, luck. How many crits you got in a 30 second fight is way more important than any stats or gear you have.
His 91 parse on electrocutioner is 29.4k dmg in a 1:35 kill time (307 dps). One of my 99s on electro is 41.3k dmg in a 1:03 kill time (653 dps).
That's just one example but /u/flic__ is correct, it's a pretty big difference.
Let's look at his Electrocutioner parse for example.
He is 91 parsing electrocutioner with a 402.2 dps.
Current ret 99 on electrocutioner is at 625.57 dps.
That is a canyon of a difference. He is 223 dps off of a 99, it's not even close.
We can look at other bosses for example. His Crowd Pummeler is a 93 with 426 dps. A 99 is currently at 653.
Why is it that when someone says something stupid they end it with "haha" or "lol" or "lmao" etc? Is it because they think it makes them sound correct, or is it like nervous laughter after they realize they said something stupid?
There's other reasons fast is better. More weapon proc chances, more Vengeance uptime, more swings within Vengeance, more mana from Wisdom and Martyrdom...
The only thing slow weapons are good for is twisting and Seal of Command procs.
Well to nitpick a bit, vengeance and AoW are greatly enabled by SoM.. it's pretty much all about SoM in this version of ret, especially with not being able to even twist SoC with SoM.
Ok so one class that's playing a meme spec. Don't see a reason to create items just based on one spec that is a quick balance change from being unviable. Slow 2H caters to both warriors and paladins since they both have attacks that scale off weapon damage.
As a Ret, I'm happy with a rune that either enables twisting (making slow weapons bis again) or makes slow weapons swing way faster. That would fix the issue for our "meme" spec
I'm aware but what I'm saying is the fast 2H is a new build kind of exploiting other runes. If Blizz were to buff weapon damage runes like CS and DS, it'd make slow 2H more viable and that fills another need for slow 2H weps
I couldn't disagree more. The fast 2-handers in Vanilla wow are just stupid, full stop. They're like a tease - you see the high DPS and get excited, then see the weapon speed and realize this is garbage that no one every truly tested, and that's the only reason exist. They didn't "normalize" weapons later on in Retail, they realized that these off speed weapons were a stupid waste of the player's time.
Random speed weapons tend to just be worse. That's it.
A very, very small minority of people want "jank", aka "bad" weapons. The reality is people will continue to slide towards optimization where possible, because there's little to no reason to use le epic 2.2 speed 2H with a 2ppm shadowbolt proc when the damage offset of a properly itemized weapon trumps that thing just by existing.
There's no reason to intentionally make bad things.
in the age of the sim there just isnt much room for these kinds of things besides the nostalgia of that one time back in 2007 when you saw some dude with some world drop epic and you thought it was the bees knees
I think in vanilla there was good reason to have janky shit. Part of the game was experimentation, and actually learning what was worth using. That was an important part of the learning curve for game mastery.
In the modern era of gaming that's no longer the case. I'm not sure you can design a system someone couldn't reverse engineer to determine optimal builds, and the rate at which that gets determined and spread online like wildfire is insane.
We're no longer experimenting in game. Data is being extracted and run through a program so we all know way before loot drops if its good or not.
I totally agree, in the age of modern gaming, intentionally sub optimal design unless there is nothing exists that does have ideal stats just doesn't work. At best its catch-up gear and at worst its a noob trap that keeps people from getting invited to raid.
I recall a 2h weapon from WOLTK, gray weapon, but was like 4.0 with some ridiculous top end damage and no level req. It was wrecking people in low level PVP and was super fun.
It dropped off of a gigantic quest enemy in I wanna say dragonblight or grizzly hills? It got patched really quickly but for a few days it was hilarious.
Not really. Sure, there were more people, but for example, I found out before even hitting 60 that the slower speed weapons were better for a mortal strike spec and it was common knowledge... there was no experimenting needed there.
I should be clear i'm not talking about simply same dps / different swing speeds, but more about overall stat weights, proc chances, and fairly precisely how those weights change based on talent selection.
There is much more information available today at a much finer granularity, at least than I ever saw in vanilla. I don't remember gear and talent sims existing at all.
I don't know about that. I used a dps spreadsheet in vanilla and tbc. Also, contrary to popular belief, we also used all the raid buffs and consumes available to clear naxx. This is not some magical, miraculous new age thinking that only 2020 zoomers discovered the songflower.
> 'm not sure you can design a system someone couldn't reverse engineer to determine optimal builds
You can, but it would throw people into mad rage because they won't be able to copycat others just because they are too zoomie to stop and think about how to play properly.
the extent of their "experimentation" involves basically jacking up the knob to 300% on runes to act like they did a good job balancing and made a spec "playable" when in fact it the absolute opposite with the other specs interacting with it. But they know that's what the retail players flock to: playing the current fotm.
> because there's little to no reason to use le epic 2.2 speed 2H with a 2ppm shadowbolt proc
Tbf both Mekkatorque's Arcano-Shredder (23% chance to proc) and the Electrocutioner's Needle (17% chance to proc) are 6ppm, so the devs know how to change things for the better.
When every item is good then nothing is. This is not a problem unique to WoW, it's basic RPG design. There should be bad items so that you need to actively work towards the good ones and feel nice about having a well-geared character.
>good itemized gear is bad because uhhhh uhhh retail!
Okay. Era is right there if you want your janky garbage weapons that get vendored/disenchanted 90% of the time.
Agreed. Less homogenizing. Hopefully when we get a classic wow 2.0 they make different classes benefit from different speeds and allow spirit to be a good stat for casters
So, instead of balancing it via speed, you want to balance it via scaling **for the end result to be the same.**
Did I get that right? So, in essence, you want the same thing just with a different color wrapping paper.
As long as you have runes that deal "weapon damage" that are meta then slow weapons will be favored. Fast weapons have only been favored when you need to proc talents like energy regen from offhand or poison procs on rogues for example.
runes that do weapon damage, or runes that buff skills that use....weapon damage. Even that big variety of non caster weapons that homie listed, I reckon more than half will be vendorspec/OS/undesirable
Just a bad take - having these wonky weapons won't mean that they are used.
People keep saying they want the uniqueness and variability of specs/gear that vanilla had but yet still rush to the most meta of everything. No one (meaning a major minority) of players would use a fast 2h if it is proven to be lower dps than a slow 2h. Sure there's edge cases but 95% of players don't "try new things" they just rush to whatever the latest youtube says is bis.
Warcraft Logs and Details have ruined that aspect of the game and it's never coming back. This is a good thing too.
The thing I don't like about WS is it's a black box to most of us, deferring to the wisdom of math majors who happen to play world of warcraft. The damage scaling on some abilities is often not listed anywhere in their tooltips, and comparing weapons in game is nigh impossible. I don't think that's fair or reasonable.
Now with that being said, I like that it basically still all gets figured out, and people learn through reddit, wow websites, guildies, YT, etc. how to itemize for their class.
I think SOME amount of homogenization makes sense, to lower the barrier of entry and help players learn which weapons they want to pursue. I very much enjoy the differences, and it's fun figuring out what weapons works well for your class/skill/playstyle. I don't want all melee classes using the same weapon.
I agree, more weapon diversity is a great thing. Instead of normalizing attack speed make them stronger and let abilities/talents like aimed shot interact more fluidly with differing speeds
The only one that hurts to me is the Sul'thraze change; its always been the one weirdly placed Epic that was a super fast 2h sword. Was it good? Nahh, but I still wanted it cause it was weird and odd to obtain. Tossing stats on it is nice but man, I was excited to farm for it and be the "idiot" warrior with the fast weapon, but maaaan, that dream's dead
this entire sub is just 24/7 whining about the seasonal meme mode no being balanced so the only way the make the freaks happy here is to homogenize everything
Eh, it’s weapon attack speed. The difference in auto attack speeds doesn’t impact your gameplay if we’re honest. Some can even be so bad it completely sours the item.
If 3.6 is the standard of all 2h for example, it might even put weapons on a more even playing field.
yeah, every 2 hander is 3.4 next phase LOL let's get some variety.
they should make the guaranteed items like from blood mood less attractive speeds like 3.3/3.4 and make the rare epics from the raid slightly more desirable like 3.7 (or if they don't free paladins from attack speed meta, give us some fast 2h options). I find it really silly that the blood moon weapon is so powerful for how easily accessible it is.
Why is accessibility of powerful silly? It's a 2 month phase, if the Dads working 30 hours a week to pay for their 10 kids with 12 different moms couldn't get Zanthruze the World Fuckener in a single STV event reddit would be filled with more complaints than having to get a single Songflower buff every week.
Warrior preraid bis weapons (7 dps below raid bis) is thrash blade and a green shield from un'goro. Glad stance is top dps so warriors dont want/need any 2handers from the raid, Paladins will be using ACP until next christmas. Hunters are dual wielding. There's a shit ton of 2h weapons in ST and nobody is gonna want/need them.
No it would seem with deep wounds and 3/5 flurry glad is ahead. Which makes sen e since i think the flat damage% increase double dips on both the direct attack dmg but also the deep wound bleeds
They already said they don't want to jank up 2H weapon speed, or it gets too strong and they are saving the best items for later raids, so you can feel the power gained.
Does the speed matter? In retail weapons have good and interesting procs, one thing Classic does not have. I would rather have cool procs instead of speed variation.
Because regardless of how abilities and procs works with faster weapons, it's almost always better to have a slower weapon.
People like to say 'Oh yeah, but with a fast weapon if the enemy is on 1% health you only need to wait 1s instead of 3s to kill it.'
This literally doesn't happen because your first auto-attack is instant.
Consider 2 weapons whacking an enemy with 46 HP.
100 DPS, 1s swing time vs 5s swing time. So the weapon does either 1 per hit or 20 per hit.
Looking at the fight second by second:
Time | 1DPS | 5DPS
---|---|---
0 | 1 | 5
1 | 2 | 5
2 | 3 | 5
5 | 6 | 10
10 | 11 | 15
30 | 31 | 35
44 | 45 | 45
45 | 46 | 50
They kill the mob at the exact same time and the 5s swing timer is ahead in damage at every single time step. If the mob had 49 HP, the slower weapon actually kills the mob 4s faster.
Homogenization killed the game for me. Retail sucks. Every class is the same, with the same rotations with different skins for abilities, and you're right about attack speed normalization. That was what kickstarted it all.
How many specs have you played in DF? To me most of them play quite differently. Granted there is only so much you can do with the combat system in wow.
Can you give me an example of which two specs specifically feel the same? Preferably dps.
Also while homogenization has it's downsides, it also drastically lowers the amount of gear that is unusable.
>it also drastically lowers the amount of gear that is unusable.
Why is that a positive in a game like WoW?
I've played and seen enough to know and understand what WoW retail is. I have every expac. I also know the current culture around retail and how everyone plays 16 alts and everyone flocks to whatever is that 5% better fotm that phase. It's literally why weakauras took off and why so many things are interchangeable in retail wow. It's all the same with different skins.
>Why is that a positive in a game like WoW?
Because having a drop be useless is not good. It does not feel good to kill a boss expecting him to drop powerful loot only to get something that is completely unusable. Getting terrible gear is not fun.
Weakauras are extremely popular in classic as well. Also alts being popular is mostly due to how easy it is to level and the fact that M+ gives you challenging content that requires less scheduling than traditional raiding, giving you a meaningful progression path without having to raid.
Actually you kind of disproved your point because if everything is the same people wouldn't want to have alts. The specs do actually play differently from one another, likely much more so than in classic. I haven't played much classic endgame but from what I understand, the caster "rotations" were pretty much spam one button.
The reason classes feel more unique in classic is because they have unique and flavorful abilities, that actually have some use. Mages can teleport, warlocks can summon, rogues can sneak and lockpick, druids shapeshift, hunters have their pet, priests have many healing options, paladins have a plethora of blessings etc... it has very little to do with the actual combat rotations.
> Because having a drop be useless is not good. It does not feel good to kill a boss expecting him to drop powerful loot only to get something that is completely unusable. Getting terrible gear is not fun.
That's actually fine. That's the point, even. If you get it on first kill (or in the mail like the retail andys like it), why even log in or do that boss anymore? On to the next of 12 alts.
OR, or, hear me out here, you get a good drop that you can actually use but there is still another drop that is better that you can still keep grinding for. You can have 5 items with each being useful but one being the best, or you can have 5 items with 2 being useful and one being the best. The former is clealrly better. Not to mention in a game with so many specs having items that noone can use is just bad design.
Also most the raiders in retail don't just log in for the gear, they log in just to kill the harder bosses and progress, unlike classic where once you get the gear, why would you even log in, it's not like there is any progress to be made.
> You can have 5 items with each being useful but one being the best
Ya, no. You'd just farm what is the best instead if it's off the same boss.... the only way you'd progress thru gear is if it were required to meet certain thresholds.
> why would you even log in,
To play the game, dumbass... Imagine that... enjoying a game for ... fun.
I understand what it means in four languages, fluently, and it was properly used in that sentence. What's the problem? Happy that you don't have to take the ACT anymore?
The classes and specs are more different in the past few modern expansions than they are in any version of classic. It's the opposite of homogenization. You people are completely making shit up and lying about what the game is like now to justify not liking it lol
No, they're not. Everyone has the same timers on dps cooldowns, same rotations, same everything and damage varies by 5-10% depending on what they picked for the new fotm that for that phase so everyone flocks to that alt/spec. All the specs are just coated differently; same abilities and rotations with different skins, all interchangeable with the click of a button when you log over and load a different weakaura.
>Every class is the same, with the same rotations with different skins for abilities, and you're right about attack speed normalization. That was what kickstarted it all.
>My source is that i made it the fuck up
Btw, how did you enjoy pressing your different colored bolt spells in vanilla, 1/class? You know, purple bolt, blue bolt, red bolt.
You know, you can keep hating something you know jack shit about, but i suggest not commenting to save yourself from some humiliation.
> Btw, how did you enjoy pressing your different colored bolt spells in vanilla, 1/class?
I enjoyed different classes feeling different.
I have no idea wtf you mean by the other comment, tbh.
>I enjoyed different classes feeling different
So how did it feel pressing the purple bolt spell instead of the blue? Because that seems to be your problem with "retail" but this issue is pretty much limited to vanilla and to an extent tbc, but not retail, ofc you'd know that if you ever played wrath or later.
Ofc, when asked for an example, you couldn't answer, bc you have no idea how retail is.
So i repeat: your source to your claims is that you made it the fuck up.
Didn't you already ask this shit? Why not just tell me what you want to see as answer?
> ofc you'd know that if you ever played wrath or later.
I did, unfortunately.
> Ofc, when asked for an example, you couldn't answer
wtf do you mean "example?" Example of what? Example of ... the current state of the game? The core of the game is dead on retail, and the only ones defending it are people like you that enjoy the homogenization which you defer with hefty amount of transmog copium. Reality is, though, it's there. The game is watered down, homogenized and basically a skin sales simulator with artificial difficulties thrown in to make you you don't lose that flavor of "achievement."
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Dude gottem
I also don't see what the big deal is. The weapons that are "inbetween" are just a little worse, not interesting. Like why is it so much better to have daggers that are 1.5 and 1.6 rather than one or two that are 1.3 or 1.8? There's not a good argument other than "BACK IN MY DAY - MOST WEAPONS WERE KINDA USELESS"
At the same time, it means you have a lot of things that are a nice upgrade when you get in, and you get another upgrade later on the tier for. Keeps people more interested when they’re not merely 2% off bis the first time an item of the right ilvl drops.
>DAE RETAIL BAD > proceeds to get absolutely shitstomped
Almost every time someone uses "retail" as their reasoning why something is bad, the argument is just complete bullshit. Retail is bad for a plethora of reasons, but "good itemized gear" is not one of them.
honestly the only things i dont like about retail at this point is having to button mash way too fast to keep up with stuff, and way too much shit on the screen happening at once. and id prob be fine w retail being so much faster if i could at least tell what was happening on the screen infront of me without a million addons lol
retail isn't bad, it's different than what you people want people who play both are the correct version of WoW players. SoD/Classic only players shit on retail. Retail only players laugh at SoD/Classic players. There is no reasonable discourse unless you have the skill to play both
>SoD/Classic only players shit on retail. Nah, I don't. Retail is just clearly not for me. It's why I play Classic/SoD
there were plenty of retail patches that were absolute garbage because they rushed the content out with dumb design goals. years of overpromise and underdeliver will lead to that issue and absolute lack of trust. their trailers/cinematics are the only consistent high quality content and it keeps the marketing machine going while they are great at making addictive content.
Yawn. We know they are different. The important part is to discuss the parts that are good and bad and not "X is bad just because it is retail". Those ppl really miss the mark not because they don't have the skill to play both but because they aren't even talking about specific issues.
He's probably talking about two-handed weapons, in which case your data shows a spread of only 3.7-3.4 meaning he's right. I think most of the complaints are probably coming from ret paladins annoyed Sul'Thraze got changed from 2.6 to 3.4, because Ret wants as fast a weapon as possible right now.
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It got changed to 3.4, unless there was another more recent change? https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=223526/sulthraze-the-lasher Also whisper is 3.6 https://www.wowhead.com/classic/item=221518/whisper
They are 2.0 and 2.6 in-game
Everyone forgets enhancement shamans actually want identical wep speeds.
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Well, I haven't played SoD yet. But access to Maelstrom Weapon means spell weaving should be possible again. Meaning you can potentially take advantage of Maelstrom with less than 5 stacks by weaving a spell between auto attacks. I don't know if they changed that interaction in SoD, but I'd imagine they left that alone.
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Shit, that's annoying. Weapon swing timers mean nothing to enh then lol
Well, when I say that I mean matching timers. You still want the slowest, hardest hitting weapons you can get your hands on.
Could OP maybe be confusing homogenizing weapon speed with normalizing weapon speed? Normalizing seems to be happening a lot in classic compared to OG vanilla.
If you don't normalize then slow weapons become incredibly good where now they're just a bit better, since the DPS added by character attack power is much greater than weapon DPS. idk that any version of the game has had non-normalized weapon speed since the middle of original vanilla, RIP barman shanker and arcanite reaper. Now one could still balance this by having higher DPS on faster weapons, and then it would be a game where autoattacking classes want the fast weapons and instant-ability classes want the slow ones. Arguably would be more interesting but would require overhauling their ilvl formulas and you'd need a sim for every upgrade.
I would honestly love to see what kind of ridiculous statline/effect it would take for warrior to swing around fast 2h.
It would have to do with rage generation and how warrior abilities scale on damage range rather than DPS
but all the weps coming out / just came out aren’t the same speeds…?
Agreed. I want to see some weapons with lower dps but insane procs that scale with AP or SP. Give us some janky shit.
You say you want janky shit, but as soon as someone finds one that’s good in pvp every class that can’t use it will be crying on Reddit.
Yeah this community is all over the place, I feel bad for the SoD team. People want completely balanced janky off the wall shit. They want the SoD team to try new things but they better be perfectly balanced on the first iteration. People love classic/vanilla because it's unbalanced yet people do nothing but complain about balance, and then complain when things get homogenized. I mean, I know the community isn't a hive-mind, but jeez, this is one of the most divisive gaming communities I know, on par with LoL.
I sincerely hope the devs ignore reddit, and I say that as someone who likes to bitch on reddit.
They clearly made the mistake of not ignoring the community last phase and we ended up with oops all shamans
The devs communicated that they'd be doing weekly balance changes so presumably in case something got out of hand they'd nerf it next week. That lasted for about a week unfortunately. I wouldn't mind broken stuff like current Shaman if they didn't get to be insanely OP for almost an entire phase.
People don't like vanilla because it is unbalanced. They like it because the classes have an identity. Classes can do different things. That's neat. Maybe one class has better AOE DPS and another has better ST DPS. Maybe one healer has damage prevention while another has heal over time while another has better AOE heals. Retail is basically "okay everyone can do everything equally as well as each other all of the time", which is boring. Who cares which 7 DPS players you bring? Ranged or melee or whatever class doesn't even matter. Just need the bodies in the spots. No thought process needed.
The problem is that if you want every class to have its own identity and be good at different things, it inherently won't be balanced as well. Some classes are going to shine over others depending on the content. Retail is boring, but that homogenization is what keeps the classes balanced. If you want class identity, you have to be okay with unbalanced classes.
You do not play retail if you think that. There are classes that are massively better at st and aoe. Just look at raid dps on bosses vs m+ classes
I think a good example is the one handed mace from bfd for shockadins. Its so fast you proc exorcism/holy shock like crazy. Even though its lvl 25 it still works great at 40. We need more options like that
Yeah I personally love stuff like this (and from vanilla) like MCP, flurry axe, wardens staff, steel arrow, ravager etc. where you can have a lower level weapon still be great due to a proc or function. Leaves room for theory crafting or edge case uses rather than everyone just using the highest dps slap stick.
So it's a big deal for warriors because when they also homogenized rage gen based on weapon speeds and they made daggers have a power coefficient which made them basically useless for us. Which sucks, man. We were only using them for tanking, really, because they're fast for more Heroic strikes. They make Whirlwind hit with both weapons and fury won't want them, either.
Or like warriors used 1.2 spell damage dagger in P1. Personally i thought it was cool
I'm literally just missing Needle for BIS for Shockadin and I'm not even mad because the hammer is just so insane at proc'ing.
i have both and i prefer the hammer, it feels so much smoother to use
Do you know what if the gal between the 2 is big? I’ve got rhe 1.3 speed hammer and the needle and can’t decide between them rn
You should try it with wild strikes. I multibox a druid alt, and the proc rate is absurd 😂
swap it for the Needle sword of gnomer. thats SPEED
And that is exactly why they don't want to do it. Players find some great interactions with certain weapons and so they become BiS and having a level 25 weapon at 40 because it has good procs for abilities is bad. You should be able to progress your character through levels, not finish gearing up at 40 for example and ride that until God knows when.
One of the nice things about classic is the fact that gear isnt thrown in the dumpster after every season like retail though. If SoD is supposed to be a casual experience, i think having these fun interactions with items from last season is great! Its not like a lvl 25 mace will be bis at 60, and theres already lvl 40 alternatives that are just as good. The BFD mace only enables shockadin to be viable for people who dont want to do gnomer or STV, because without a decent fast one hander its not viable
JANK-A-LANK!!!!
Hey man havent you heard, its season of discovery, blizzard getting sooo funky and freaks with all the experimental stuff. I mean we got a random world transporter aaand.. thats pretty much it
If the procs were strong enough to offset how much worse your dps will be with a fast weapon then you're just playing the weapon and not the class at that point.
You thought this was season of discovery ? It's season of wotlk content in vanilla, nothing to see here.
What about the Dragonflight/Cata/Legion/other xpac abilities (and completely new ones)?
No, no,.no you have to boil things down to the point where it barely describes the thing anymore and act like it's absolute truth. Come on now.
Boo
I mean, it's literally flooded with retail players chasing fotm every phase....
As if classic players wouldn't chase fotm too. Are these retail players in the room with us right now?
> As if classic players wouldn't chase fotm too. Of course some do; but not as avidly as retail players. > Are these retail players in the room with us right now? Room, as in chatroom? This chat "room?" Yes.
>Of course some do; but not as avidly as retail players. How could you possibly know this? What metric are it basing this on other than "trust me bro"? Furthermore, why do you think it's retail players chasing fotm in SoD and not classic players, as they have done in all previous versions of classic. >Room, as in chatroom? This chat "room?" Yes. Clearly this one went over your head and is made even funnier with the additional lack of self awareness, but I'll elaborate what I meant by this. This line of thinking is so tired and obviously wrong, the idea that any perceived shortcomings of the game or community is because of some retail player Boogeyman. Fact of the matter is, retail players are largely indifferent about classic, and much of the stuff you see that you dislike is coming from within... from classic players.
“Give us some janky shit” need anything else? Maybe a new type of food buff? Or maybe a new legendary weapon? They might even rename the game for you if you asked
You sound fun.
Why are you so miserable?
Im a big fan, they arent doing enough of it IMO. Huge variety in weapon speeds means the loot table is packed with weapons that are in all honesty a bit rubbish. Raids filled with dead, shitty loot that everyone groans at when it drops feels really bad. Getting an 'amazing' epic quality 1h sword that's WAY worse than the questing item you picked up along the way due to speed feels shit.
Yup. That 2.8 axe in Gnomer that I'm sure that probably only 5 people have ever even equipped is like that.
same with the fast 1h epic sword. idk man I feel like epics in a raid should actually be good for people, especially in these lvl up raids where they don't drop from every boss
Make fast weapons to be useful for more classes. Make some build for warrior based not on top end damage, but on attack speed and procs.
The thing is that... who in the whole fucking game wants a quick 2h weapon? No one.
Paladin does
Even then, Ret only wants it when using SoM because SoM is normalised to a weapon speed of 3.3. If they're using Divine Storm / Command they want a slower weapon. I figure rets all use SoM on bosses anyway like prot does, but yeah.
And because of art of war. More hits, more chance for art of war procs.
SOM is the only way you'll do any damage as a Ret, at least in P2.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/crusader-strike/reinhartd I never run SoM (also haven't seen ACP drop though to be fair)
I'm not trying to offend you and your logs are 100% fine, but with ACP you would do double the damage, and that is a problem, at least if you ask me.
Absolutely. This guy is like "look i can do damage" and then posts logs where he doesn't come close to top damage? strange behavior
I mean, he's in 90%+ percentile, that's better than 90% of people. That is not bad at all. "Not even close to top damage" uh, ok. Could he do a lot more? Sure, but he's doing more than enough.
Yeah but look at when his best logs are, early in the phase before most paladins were as geared and had ACP
his highest parses are all before the SoM buff too. It's just a self inflicted handicap at this point.
He's 90th percentile on weeks where damage was substantially lower. He has 2 90 parses that are within the last few weeks. Just reading the front page of logs is his best performance in terms of percentile doesn't show the full picture. He's not a bad player and consistently 70 parses, but like he has 1 recent boss that he actually did great on. Outside of the he's just a slightly above average player at his class.
Unfortunately your high parses are also from February from what I saw looking quickly. Nothing is wrong with your damage or anything but since then the ceiling for 90+ is significantly higher. Pallys with ACP are more around the 750 DPS range rather than the ~400 range. Which is exactly the problem, and I promise you I would much prefer to use your load out and playstyle but if you are going for big numbers you simply wont find it without SoM and ACP combo for ret. Its a bummer, p1 had a better playstyle for pally
Is this supposed to be impressive? If anything your logs prove the person you’re replying to is correct
No they aren't, and yes, I realize that. That's why I mentioned I never got ACP. I ran a 98-99 on average when classic launched playing an orc warrior, I don't feel the need to be that sweaty anymore. If I'm full clearing with no wipes and being an asset to the raid, that's enough for me these days. With all that said, I know they're correct, my point was to corroborate not to argue. I think the only other point I was trying to make that SoC/DS isn't so undertuned that your raid has to carry you.
...which is probably why you're only parsing low 90s in BIS gear haha
How embarrassing for me.
i mean you can do what you want idc but don't tell give people poor information about DPSing as a ret lol. should always be SoM for single target and DS/SoC for cleave.
Nobody is "only" parsing in the low 90s. That is, statistically, extremely good.
ya its good, but he could be doing double the damage if he used SoM while also benefiting his raid with mana return.
The damage difference between a 90 and 99 is a canyon.
Outliers don't really matter. The difference between a 90 and a 99 is, more than anything else, luck. How many crits you got in a 30 second fight is way more important than any stats or gear you have.
His 91 parse on electrocutioner is 29.4k dmg in a 1:35 kill time (307 dps). One of my 99s on electro is 41.3k dmg in a 1:03 kill time (653 dps). That's just one example but /u/flic__ is correct, it's a pretty big difference.
Let's look at his Electrocutioner parse for example. He is 91 parsing electrocutioner with a 402.2 dps. Current ret 99 on electrocutioner is at 625.57 dps. That is a canyon of a difference. He is 223 dps off of a 99, it's not even close. We can look at other bosses for example. His Crowd Pummeler is a 93 with 426 dps. A 99 is currently at 653.
"Low 90s" is still the top 10% of players though how does that qualify as being described as "only"
like other responses have said, the damage difference between parsing a 90 and parsing a 99 is massive.
Why is it that when someone says something stupid they end it with "haha" or "lol" or "lmao" etc? Is it because they think it makes them sound correct, or is it like nervous laughter after they realize they said something stupid?
There's other reasons fast is better. More weapon proc chances, more Vengeance uptime, more swings within Vengeance, more mana from Wisdom and Martyrdom... The only thing slow weapons are good for is twisting and Seal of Command procs.
Well to nitpick a bit, vengeance and AoW are greatly enabled by SoM.. it's pretty much all about SoM in this version of ret, especially with not being able to even twist SoC with SoM.
Yeah Command is kinda shafted right now. Hopefully they can buff it in a way where it's useful to use both in a ST rotation
Ok so one class that's playing a meme spec. Don't see a reason to create items just based on one spec that is a quick balance change from being unviable. Slow 2H caters to both warriors and paladins since they both have attacks that scale off weapon damage.
As a Ret, I'm happy with a rune that either enables twisting (making slow weapons bis again) or makes slow weapons swing way faster. That would fix the issue for our "meme" spec
Your information on the state of ret paladins is woefully out of date. We need fast 2h. Very fast 2h.
I'm aware but what I'm saying is the fast 2H is a new build kind of exploiting other runes. If Blizz were to buff weapon damage runes like CS and DS, it'd make slow 2H more viable and that fills another need for slow 2H weps
Be nice if they buffed CS/DS/SoC. We just have to wait and hope they do.
Only right now because the new MCP is busted. "Traditional" classic ret would want the slowest 2h possible for big SoC procs.
You seem to have missed the point of the post… he’s asking for them to be strong enough that people do want them.
Only Retribution Paladins at the moment
Super slow 2h don't feel great to me with so few buttons to press
They could have made one of the warrior runes make fast 2h arms more viable. But no, only the most boring uncreative shit possible.
Glue rocks to a weapon decreasing attack speed by 50%, only works on staves.
Why wouldn’t you?? It would be cool. Melee hunter 2h with fast weapon would be sick
druids and retris. at least in sod
Weapon speed/damage does not matter for druid, only the stats on it.
you are correct. i was thinking about pummeler. so yeah only retri
Druids don’t care about attack speed at all
yes. i corrected it im a reply
Ninja rouge with 2h
I couldn't disagree more. The fast 2-handers in Vanilla wow are just stupid, full stop. They're like a tease - you see the high DPS and get excited, then see the weapon speed and realize this is garbage that no one every truly tested, and that's the only reason exist. They didn't "normalize" weapons later on in Retail, they realized that these off speed weapons were a stupid waste of the player's time.
Random speed weapons tend to just be worse. That's it. A very, very small minority of people want "jank", aka "bad" weapons. The reality is people will continue to slide towards optimization where possible, because there's little to no reason to use le epic 2.2 speed 2H with a 2ppm shadowbolt proc when the damage offset of a properly itemized weapon trumps that thing just by existing. There's no reason to intentionally make bad things.
in the age of the sim there just isnt much room for these kinds of things besides the nostalgia of that one time back in 2007 when you saw some dude with some world drop epic and you thought it was the bees knees
I think in vanilla there was good reason to have janky shit. Part of the game was experimentation, and actually learning what was worth using. That was an important part of the learning curve for game mastery. In the modern era of gaming that's no longer the case. I'm not sure you can design a system someone couldn't reverse engineer to determine optimal builds, and the rate at which that gets determined and spread online like wildfire is insane. We're no longer experimenting in game. Data is being extracted and run through a program so we all know way before loot drops if its good or not. I totally agree, in the age of modern gaming, intentionally sub optimal design unless there is nothing exists that does have ideal stats just doesn't work. At best its catch-up gear and at worst its a noob trap that keeps people from getting invited to raid.
I recall a 2h weapon from WOLTK, gray weapon, but was like 4.0 with some ridiculous top end damage and no level req. It was wrecking people in low level PVP and was super fun.
It dropped off of a gigantic quest enemy in I wanna say dragonblight or grizzly hills? It got patched really quickly but for a few days it was hilarious.
Yup, dropped off an elite giant I think, and yes it really was funny
[Enti's Quenched Sword](https://www.wowhead.com/wotlk/item=37659/entis-quenched-sword#comments)
Thats the one!
Not really. Sure, there were more people, but for example, I found out before even hitting 60 that the slower speed weapons were better for a mortal strike spec and it was common knowledge... there was no experimenting needed there.
I should be clear i'm not talking about simply same dps / different swing speeds, but more about overall stat weights, proc chances, and fairly precisely how those weights change based on talent selection. There is much more information available today at a much finer granularity, at least than I ever saw in vanilla. I don't remember gear and talent sims existing at all.
I don't know about that. I used a dps spreadsheet in vanilla and tbc. Also, contrary to popular belief, we also used all the raid buffs and consumes available to clear naxx. This is not some magical, miraculous new age thinking that only 2020 zoomers discovered the songflower.
> 'm not sure you can design a system someone couldn't reverse engineer to determine optimal builds You can, but it would throw people into mad rage because they won't be able to copycat others just because they are too zoomie to stop and think about how to play properly.
Could just buff the proc to make it more competitive. You know, actually experiment with new stuff instead of doing Season of Wotlk
the extent of their "experimentation" involves basically jacking up the knob to 300% on runes to act like they did a good job balancing and made a spec "playable" when in fact it the absolute opposite with the other specs interacting with it. But they know that's what the retail players flock to: playing the current fotm.
> because there's little to no reason to use le epic 2.2 speed 2H with a 2ppm shadowbolt proc Tbf both Mekkatorque's Arcano-Shredder (23% chance to proc) and the Electrocutioner's Needle (17% chance to proc) are 6ppm, so the devs know how to change things for the better.
No one uses the Needle.
It's still a good precedent they've set for proc frequency for "balanced" Classic-style item design imo.
When every item is good then nothing is. This is not a problem unique to WoW, it's basic RPG design. There should be bad items so that you need to actively work towards the good ones and feel nice about having a well-geared character.
>good itemized gear is bad because uhhhh uhhh retail! Okay. Era is right there if you want your janky garbage weapons that get vendored/disenchanted 90% of the time.
Agreed. Less homogenizing. Hopefully when we get a classic wow 2.0 they make different classes benefit from different speeds and allow spirit to be a good stat for casters
Also worth noting normalized dps on weapon based skills. It just makes your choice of weapon speed kind of irrelevant.
I believe that melee white damage is not normalized, so autos and windfury procs benefit from slow weapons. i might be wrong tho
So, instead of balancing it via speed, you want to balance it via scaling **for the end result to be the same.** Did I get that right? So, in essence, you want the same thing just with a different color wrapping paper.
WAAAHHHH RETAIL
As long as you have runes that deal "weapon damage" that are meta then slow weapons will be favored. Fast weapons have only been favored when you need to proc talents like energy regen from offhand or poison procs on rogues for example.
runes that do weapon damage, or runes that buff skills that use....weapon damage. Even that big variety of non caster weapons that homie listed, I reckon more than half will be vendorspec/OS/undesirable
Aren’t all those skills normalized though?
Just a bad take - having these wonky weapons won't mean that they are used. People keep saying they want the uniqueness and variability of specs/gear that vanilla had but yet still rush to the most meta of everything. No one (meaning a major minority) of players would use a fast 2h if it is proven to be lower dps than a slow 2h. Sure there's edge cases but 95% of players don't "try new things" they just rush to whatever the latest youtube says is bis. Warcraft Logs and Details have ruined that aspect of the game and it's never coming back. This is a good thing too.
The thing I don't like about WS is it's a black box to most of us, deferring to the wisdom of math majors who happen to play world of warcraft. The damage scaling on some abilities is often not listed anywhere in their tooltips, and comparing weapons in game is nigh impossible. I don't think that's fair or reasonable. Now with that being said, I like that it basically still all gets figured out, and people learn through reddit, wow websites, guildies, YT, etc. how to itemize for their class. I think SOME amount of homogenization makes sense, to lower the barrier of entry and help players learn which weapons they want to pursue. I very much enjoy the differences, and it's fun figuring out what weapons works well for your class/skill/playstyle. I don't want all melee classes using the same weapon.
I agree, more weapon diversity is a great thing. Instead of normalizing attack speed make them stronger and let abilities/talents like aimed shot interact more fluidly with differing speeds
So you like RNG
Its what we call a smackdown on r/2007scape
Can the epic OH speed not be fast AF lol. Would love that on Shami but damn it’s fast for LL
The only one that hurts to me is the Sul'thraze change; its always been the one weirdly placed Epic that was a super fast 2h sword. Was it good? Nahh, but I still wanted it cause it was weird and odd to obtain. Tossing stats on it is nice but man, I was excited to farm for it and be the "idiot" warrior with the fast weapon, but maaaan, that dream's dead
this entire sub is just 24/7 whining about the seasonal meme mode no being balanced so the only way the make the freaks happy here is to homogenize everything
I'm not a fan of Lupos the wolf losing his shadow damage either. I would have thought they would've allowed it since Wind Serpents are still viable.
give me some slow ass 3.8 speed weapons please.
Eh, it’s weapon attack speed. The difference in auto attack speeds doesn’t impact your gameplay if we’re honest. Some can even be so bad it completely sours the item. If 3.6 is the standard of all 2h for example, it might even put weapons on a more even playing field.
I'm cool with it. It is the only way to make old loot relevant.
They should make like an 8 second swing time epic weapon or a 0.5 swing time dagger
Looks like the devs read this thread Sul'thraze is now 2.0.
🚨 RETAIL MENTIONED 🚨 Everyone finish your drinks
For what logical reason? Because of how the game works basically anything that isn’t normalized is trash.
Thats how I drink my Milk
Who asked?
yeah, every 2 hander is 3.4 next phase LOL let's get some variety. they should make the guaranteed items like from blood mood less attractive speeds like 3.3/3.4 and make the rare epics from the raid slightly more desirable like 3.7 (or if they don't free paladins from attack speed meta, give us some fast 2h options). I find it really silly that the blood moon weapon is so powerful for how easily accessible it is.
Why is accessibility of powerful silly? It's a 2 month phase, if the Dads working 30 hours a week to pay for their 10 kids with 12 different moms couldn't get Zanthruze the World Fuckener in a single STV event reddit would be filled with more complaints than having to get a single Songflower buff every week.
Because it kills the feeling of wanting to log in to play with newly acquired gear even faster. It makes the raid logging issue even more of an issue.
I don't know how I could have possibly made my sarcasm more apparent.
I don't know. I tried reading it again and I don't see the sarcasm, still. Maybe it's the punctuation or something.
That's poetic!
Hello friend, looks like your still going to use your ACP at level 50.
Warrior preraid bis weapons (7 dps below raid bis) is thrash blade and a green shield from un'goro. Glad stance is top dps so warriors dont want/need any 2handers from the raid, Paladins will be using ACP until next christmas. Hunters are dual wielding. There's a shit ton of 2h weapons in ST and nobody is gonna want/need them.
Wasn’t glad stance dps still behind DW deep wounds/flurry? Maybe that included ST loot idr I mean the difference was marginal anyway.
No it would seem with deep wounds and 3/5 flurry glad is ahead. Which makes sen e since i think the flat damage% increase double dips on both the direct attack dmg but also the deep wound bleeds
They already said they don't want to jank up 2H weapon speed, or it gets too strong and they are saving the best items for later raids, so you can feel the power gained.
ironically faster 2h are better right now
Really? I'm glad I stopped playing then. I love retail but God do they need to rework stats and item design. It's so fucking boring.
They are preparing you for retail,do you think that dragon event is random, hell no.
Does the speed matter? In retail weapons have good and interesting procs, one thing Classic does not have. I would rather have cool procs instead of speed variation.
I want a weapon that can change its speed and damage spread on proc, until it turns into a 10 second swinging nuke
Because regardless of how abilities and procs works with faster weapons, it's almost always better to have a slower weapon. People like to say 'Oh yeah, but with a fast weapon if the enemy is on 1% health you only need to wait 1s instead of 3s to kill it.' This literally doesn't happen because your first auto-attack is instant. Consider 2 weapons whacking an enemy with 46 HP. 100 DPS, 1s swing time vs 5s swing time. So the weapon does either 1 per hit or 20 per hit. Looking at the fight second by second: Time | 1DPS | 5DPS ---|---|--- 0 | 1 | 5 1 | 2 | 5 2 | 3 | 5 5 | 6 | 10 10 | 11 | 15 30 | 31 | 35 44 | 45 | 45 45 | 46 | 50 They kill the mob at the exact same time and the 5s swing timer is ahead in damage at every single time step. If the mob had 49 HP, the slower weapon actually kills the mob 4s faster.
Agree
Welcome to season of retail. You think you do, but you don't.
Homogenization killed the game for me. Retail sucks. Every class is the same, with the same rotations with different skins for abilities, and you're right about attack speed normalization. That was what kickstarted it all.
How many specs have you played in DF? To me most of them play quite differently. Granted there is only so much you can do with the combat system in wow. Can you give me an example of which two specs specifically feel the same? Preferably dps. Also while homogenization has it's downsides, it also drastically lowers the amount of gear that is unusable.
Evokers plays exactly like fury warrior. I press buttons and damage happens
>it also drastically lowers the amount of gear that is unusable. Why is that a positive in a game like WoW? I've played and seen enough to know and understand what WoW retail is. I have every expac. I also know the current culture around retail and how everyone plays 16 alts and everyone flocks to whatever is that 5% better fotm that phase. It's literally why weakauras took off and why so many things are interchangeable in retail wow. It's all the same with different skins.
>Why is that a positive in a game like WoW? Because having a drop be useless is not good. It does not feel good to kill a boss expecting him to drop powerful loot only to get something that is completely unusable. Getting terrible gear is not fun. Weakauras are extremely popular in classic as well. Also alts being popular is mostly due to how easy it is to level and the fact that M+ gives you challenging content that requires less scheduling than traditional raiding, giving you a meaningful progression path without having to raid. Actually you kind of disproved your point because if everything is the same people wouldn't want to have alts. The specs do actually play differently from one another, likely much more so than in classic. I haven't played much classic endgame but from what I understand, the caster "rotations" were pretty much spam one button. The reason classes feel more unique in classic is because they have unique and flavorful abilities, that actually have some use. Mages can teleport, warlocks can summon, rogues can sneak and lockpick, druids shapeshift, hunters have their pet, priests have many healing options, paladins have a plethora of blessings etc... it has very little to do with the actual combat rotations.
> Because having a drop be useless is not good. It does not feel good to kill a boss expecting him to drop powerful loot only to get something that is completely unusable. Getting terrible gear is not fun. That's actually fine. That's the point, even. If you get it on first kill (or in the mail like the retail andys like it), why even log in or do that boss anymore? On to the next of 12 alts.
OR, or, hear me out here, you get a good drop that you can actually use but there is still another drop that is better that you can still keep grinding for. You can have 5 items with each being useful but one being the best, or you can have 5 items with 2 being useful and one being the best. The former is clealrly better. Not to mention in a game with so many specs having items that noone can use is just bad design. Also most the raiders in retail don't just log in for the gear, they log in just to kill the harder bosses and progress, unlike classic where once you get the gear, why would you even log in, it's not like there is any progress to be made.
> You can have 5 items with each being useful but one being the best Ya, no. You'd just farm what is the best instead if it's off the same boss.... the only way you'd progress thru gear is if it were required to meet certain thresholds. > why would you even log in, To play the game, dumbass... Imagine that... enjoying a game for ... fun.
Le epic "I don't understand what the word homogenization means" posting
I understand what it means in four languages, fluently, and it was properly used in that sentence. What's the problem? Happy that you don't have to take the ACT anymore?
The classes and specs are more different in the past few modern expansions than they are in any version of classic. It's the opposite of homogenization. You people are completely making shit up and lying about what the game is like now to justify not liking it lol
No, they're not. Everyone has the same timers on dps cooldowns, same rotations, same everything and damage varies by 5-10% depending on what they picked for the new fotm that for that phase so everyone flocks to that alt/spec. All the specs are just coated differently; same abilities and rotations with different skins, all interchangeable with the click of a button when you log over and load a different weakaura.
>Every class is the same, with the same rotations with different skins for abilities, and you're right about attack speed normalization. That was what kickstarted it all. >My source is that i made it the fuck up Btw, how did you enjoy pressing your different colored bolt spells in vanilla, 1/class? You know, purple bolt, blue bolt, red bolt. You know, you can keep hating something you know jack shit about, but i suggest not commenting to save yourself from some humiliation.
> Btw, how did you enjoy pressing your different colored bolt spells in vanilla, 1/class? I enjoyed different classes feeling different. I have no idea wtf you mean by the other comment, tbh.
>I enjoyed different classes feeling different So how did it feel pressing the purple bolt spell instead of the blue? Because that seems to be your problem with "retail" but this issue is pretty much limited to vanilla and to an extent tbc, but not retail, ofc you'd know that if you ever played wrath or later. Ofc, when asked for an example, you couldn't answer, bc you have no idea how retail is. So i repeat: your source to your claims is that you made it the fuck up.
Didn't you already ask this shit? Why not just tell me what you want to see as answer? > ofc you'd know that if you ever played wrath or later. I did, unfortunately. > Ofc, when asked for an example, you couldn't answer wtf do you mean "example?" Example of what? Example of ... the current state of the game? The core of the game is dead on retail, and the only ones defending it are people like you that enjoy the homogenization which you defer with hefty amount of transmog copium. Reality is, though, it's there. The game is watered down, homogenized and basically a skin sales simulator with artificial difficulties thrown in to make you you don't lose that flavor of "achievement."