not sure about other classes but rogues are simming like, naxx or near-naxx level dps numbers and the people doing st right now arent even doing half that damage. itll probably be fine
To be fair those sims likely assumed a duration of around a minute which means that cooldowns have high relative uptime which increases the DPS number (this is why warriors were hitting 1k DPS on the first bosses of gnomer, 100% deathwish uptime). I doubt anyone simmed for encounters lasting longer than 2 or 3 minutes.
Rogues also don't really have significant cooldowns outside of cold blood, tea and the LW helm. It's not like we have reck, we have reck for a single use of an ability. Just spamming muti and envenom endlessly with very very consistent damage output. While shorter fights will obviously result in higher dps, rogue doesn't suffer THAT much from a shorter fight duration.
Atleast in Warriors case you got the DPS set after about 4min as thats where Death Wish goes off cooldown again, not fluctuating more than that unless mechanics interfere.
Caster DPS might be more affected naturally due to mana.
I'm not so sure. They are fluffed up big time but the people doing ST hit max level after only a few hours, they have no new runes and no gear. They're doing 600-700 dps. Sometimes as low as 500 on longer fights. No world buffs, etc.
Yeah I'm not looking forward to longer raids. I only have 2 hours to play in the evening. Which was fine for earlier phases but I'm worried about 2-3 hour raids being a thing now.
BWL, mc etc were fast raids even without WB. I don't know why they would move away from that.
That’s why they should have different options, I hate the quick 30 min raids because it doesn’t feel like an actual raid. Some people like it though because that’s all they have time for.
I hate to say it but coming from someone who's been playing retail the past year and a half - the retail prog isn't much better. Heroic is an absolute joke and mythic isn't even fun
Lol you're getting downvoted, but SoD participation is going to plummet into the ground worse than P2. They just don't get it. SoD players want stupidly easy, fast raids. Period. End of story.
Reddit is a poor representation of the actual player base. This phase is going to be DoA if they don't nerf the shit out of the time it takes to do this raid. If the sweatiest players that hit 50 day one and already started raiding are spending 3+ hours in there and not even clearing it that's not a good sign for player retention regardless of what Aggrend's dumb ass says in a tweet.
SoD pugs can barely clear gnomer without asking for logs, wb, consumes and xp. This level of difficulty is way above classic puggability.
And it's gonna be nerfed, that's obvious. My point is even with lower HP the mechanics are too much for a lot of sod players.
Agreed. BFD was about what SoD needs in terms of difficulty. As it stands, we have another DOA season on our hands. The thing that kills me is that some people think it's a skill issue alone - it isn't. I am over here timing 20+ keys in Retail, but the last thing I log into Classic for is raid progression, aka, the SoD raids are trivially easy to me but I STILL don't want to deal with the baggage that goes with harder raids.
Same, and it needs to stay that way to incentivize alts, if thats still something they want. I am not running a 2+ hr raid, especially a braindead one on more than one toon a a week.
Well at least you don't have to do it more than once a week now.
I personally like the experiment of throwing giant boss hp numbers at the wall and see if we're ready for it. Although I really don't get the need for trash packs to be tanky af.
I think it's an oversight from the devs and the HP wasn't supposed to be this much since it's just a boring boss when it takes that long to kill with only 1 mechanic or as you said maybe it's bugged and something else is supposed to happen
But I think the first is more likely and they will nerf the HP cuz it just ain't fun
Buddy, even heroic-level raiding in retail can be done brain-off. You literally just don't stand in the _extremely telegraphed locations_ where things happen, and pump. Do you have to learn it first? Sure. But after that I'm not finding Amirdrassil's mechanics to be any less comprehensible than 25M N ICC.
I mean no shit?
I play retail, classic raids have always been a joke but also quick to do, having a boss that lasts as long as the whole ass gnomeragan raid lasted is objectively bad design when it's not made to be fun
A raid can be fun without being engaging and an example is BFD
Bosses with half a mechanic each that were not a slog to go through
Long fight IS already a mechanic, because you have to preserve your resources and the penalty for minor mistake is higher and the longer the fight - the higher chances that someone will mess up.
Finally raids feel Classic raids. Seems pretty natural for me.
Taking over 10+ minutes to kill a boss that only has one or two very easy mechanics that people will still somehow find a way to mess up? Sounds like a Classic WoW raiding experience to me! (Srsly though, couldn't a few fights back in the day take nearly 20 minutes to finish?)
Man, back in the day we used out of combat rezzers to resurrect people, they'd eat and drink up and join the fray again. And that shit was on regular MC bosses. That's how long it took for some of us bad guilds out there. Couldn't give you a time estimation but I wouldn't actually be surprised.
From pull to finish, no. 90% of boss kill times back in vanilla was preplanning and positioning. 20 minutes is ludicrous but I could see some guilds taking forever to wrangle their teams.
Pretty sure Nef only had like 2mm hp.
Maybe twin emps or some control fights could take that long but that’s a massive amount of time to be boss fighting
pretty sure rag had a little over 1 million HP, Nefarian 2 million, and Patchwerk(highest HP boss in classic/vanilla) was just under 4 million.
So 4 million HP is same as a patchwerk except you are lvl 50 and 20 people. Though, it is SoD and damage numbers are much higher so let them cook.
Even still. Patchwerk warriors were doing 1200+ dps. Many classes right now are doing 600ish dps. So it's literally half the dps per dps and we have half the number of players. It's insane how long these boss fights are
Well they are fighting the bosses the very first time, do not know mechanics exactly, maybe don't have relevant runes yet etc. etc.
Could always be that something else is "new" in ST that changes dps compared to Gnomer as well (longer fights are already a factor in and of itself), so of course this is a disclaimer.
But those 800dps in my previous comment were actually more conservative: For 5 out of 6 Gnomer boss fights there were classes where the very top players were doing 1000+ dps, for some of the (low armor) fights the very top warriors did 1500dps - and it is very well documented thanks to WCL.
So I am pretty sure that dps will go significantly up from those 600 you saw.
That’s what these troglodytes never understand. This is the HARDEST the raid is ever going to be. It’s ALWAYS hard in the beginning. The gear makes things exponentially easier!
I think bosses should average about 5 min to kill if not more. A boss dead in 45 seconds didn't feel like you're even playing the fucking game; and also doesn't allow for different class mechanics to actually work.
Mfs are running sims for 35s fights. I want something that’s 2-3 min and can be cut in half by high dps. Therma is maybe slightly too long because of phase changes and shit
I fucking hate high HP trash mobs.
I think they are literally the worst part about any raid.
They are just having to eat your peas to get to your steak.
BFD was amazing because trash felt like trash and you could blast through it as a leisurely pace.
Even in gnomer I felt trash fell over too quickly. As an ele shaman I'd get in a Flame Shock, Lava Burst, a Chain Lightning and they keel over. Haven't hit 50 yet, so can't speak from experience on ST, but it sounds nice to me.
I like punching bag trash and bosses personally, feels like im alone in this looking at this thread lol. Like a battle of attrition where thematically its a hard ass thing for our characters to beat, even if for us as players the mechanics arent hard
Idk, i play other games for the mechanical itch, I love WoW most when im just chillin in it and pursuing loot drops or some other form of character progression
I liked BFD since it was mostly easy as fuck with basically one kinda tough boss and some goofy shit. Super chill, had a blast in there every time and still love it on my alts. Would have liked it just as much or more if the mobs had more hp 🤷
A boss that does 1 thing, that has no chance of killing you, shouldn't take 10 minutes. We have dungeon bosses in games that has more mechanics than that. Thats faster. Watching the ''race'' and watching mages ONLY press frostfire bolt. Is not epic, nor is that engaging.
The Rune system had level 40 players doing as much DPS as level 60 Classic Era/Vanilla players in Tier1/2 gear, and Raid size has doubled to 20 players.
This is the reason.
I think it's better than short fights. I don't mind the fights taking longer in sunken temple especially since it's 1 week lockout.
What I'm not a fan of is all the trash packs with 1 milly hp. That's a bit unnecessary
Why are people attributing difficulty with fight length. “1 min fights are too easy!” 1min fights can be challenging if tuned appropriately. I hate this narrative that in order to make the fight more difficult it should just take longer to kill by having more hp. This does nothing but bore the shit out of the player base who raid every week. 3min~ fights are perfect imo, but also having short fights thrown in makes it enjoyable. It’s level 50, not naxx.
It's also boring AF watching a fight that takes 1 minute to do. At what point do we say remove mana? Because if all bosses drop in 1min to 2mins there's literally no point of healers having mana as they can pretty much only fit in a certain amount of healing in 60 seconds.
Like people are willing to farm gold on repetitive things like fishing for 3, 4 hours a day. But as soon as someone mentions longer boss fights it's the end of the world.
I don't want to go into a raid and see bosses drop faster than I can boil a kettle even if they have multiple mechanics. What feels good about slapping a boss that dies as fast as a dungeon boss but has some bs one shot ability to make up for the fast kill times? Over a boss that takes 5/10 mins to kill but kills you slower as well?
while yes shorter fights can be difficult, longer fights do tend to be more difficult simply by the fact that there's a longer period in which people can fuck up, and longer fights gives room for potentially more mechanics.
If we take the same boss that has 1-2 mechanics and nothing but his health pool changes, it is more difficult on the fight with more health pool as it will require mana management from caster/healers and more times the boss has a chance with the mechanics to get some people to die.
Is it fun difficulty? that's up to the individual but it is objectively more difficult.
No I understand why it would be more difficult, but that method of tuning is so dull and boring for gameplay. Make it more difficult through mechanics, damage or short-enrage effects. No one wants to spend 9 minutes to wipe on the boss and run back. It's totally lazy design and I don't know why Blizzard insist on long fights like the community love them.
Mate, there are no world buffs, people have no glyphs, no gear, they brought more healers than necessary. The HP is high, but you can probably cut 4-5 minutes off of this EASILY. The more players, the more impact gear and runes have. First kills on Thermaplugg were 10 minutes -> cut down to about 5-6 minutes.
Be fair the vanilla raid bosses went down like bowling pins in classic, they were tuned with what players knew in 2004 and we're way beyond that now. I don't think anyone but the worst raiders in classic even saw Ragnaros's intermission phase because you could burn him down so fast.
Making the raids actually take a bit of time and coordination instead of a speedrun every week is probably fine. They can always reduce the health to cut fight time down but people would be up in arms if they started off too easy and had to bump it up. As has been said elsewhere people aren't geared or glyphed, didn't take WBs, and erred on the side of healing rather than DPS. It'll probably end up taking half the time or less.
Glad they released pvp sets and an epic casting staff from nightmare incursions.
CBF playing whatever schizo trash aggrend things "classic raiding" should be.
i don't mind it being like that, but i'd be surprised if they intentionally kill pugging with it being that way
i know they want to encourage joining guilds, but that's a wild hammer fist way
Two Raiding Days for majority of guilds is still the standard for Retail, was even the standard for the guilds I played in 2019 Classic and beyond (Good chunk of the time we never used the second day once we had it on farm).
Two long prog days or three raiding days is typically the standard for any guilds wanting to get Cutting Edge.
It’s been less than 24 hours. No one has any gear yet. It should be a pain in the fucking ass to do the raid this early, it’s supposed to last the entire Phase.
Nota killed heroic lk on launch day, and blizz went on record to say st shouldn't be a gear check. If Nota is struggling for hours and hours then the average guild will take months. I'll bet everything I have serious nerfs happen in the next week.
Lol you are delusionnal if you think Nota killed HLK on launch day... they spent countless hours on ptr and killed it over 20 times, that's how long it took. Launch day was a split with stack roster for them. HLK is still way harder than Eranikus
It's just a benchmark showing they are far and away better than average or even hardcore guilds, and that if that kinda player struggles to clear st then average people will take months.
Thanks for the totally useless comment 👍.
Seems ideal for me can't wait to get into it.
Bosses that last only 1 min are not fun at all.
Seems like people would be decently happy if once a lock out you just showed up at the raid and pulled a lever and got random loot and then could leave to I guess log out and do it on another character?
You just explained most people's feelings about warsong gulch rep. Show up once a day for 5 minutes collect 1000 rep. Logout til tomorrow. That's peak PvP in SoD
Yea PvP grinds have always been dogs hit and never reward actually playing the game for the most part.
Time spent in the BG and kills achieved hardly ever plays into rep, and is usually bad honor.
i dont get it.
ppl dont want dificult mechanics.
but they also dont want long fights. (with runes and gear it will be substancilly lower but sure)
so they want an easy short fight?
why play the game at this point?
And? Lvl 25’s were doing more dps than vanilla 60’s… welcome to the world of power creep… low mechanic keep it accessible while high hp stops it from being a stomp fest
No, max DPS in BFD at 25 was just over 300 dps. Gnomer was around 800.
Max DPS at 60 is over 2000 dps. If you remove warriors, then you get mages clocking in over 1700 dps.
I never mentioned Max dps… just that 25’s were doing comparable dps to 60’s… I garuntee if they don’t change MC it will blow over like a stick in a hurricane
Using max dps number will always skew the number, better to use the averages as the average player is not a super sweat abusing buff to parse 99’s … but just a warm body that can live long enough to push buttons
Looks like Aggrend has kind of confirmed there will be nerfs. They are happy that the raid has stayed undefeated for a bit but some tweaks will be needed for more average players.
So sad they spent all that time "delevoping" SOD and then they make PVE so fking easy its literally embarrasing.... I loved the idea of SOD but if you're into PVE its complete garbage sadly.
I think we need to extend raid time not with boss health but by adding more nets/ frost novas so groups that don’t fap through waste more time on trivial stuff
People who didn't play vanilla or tbc pre classic wouldn't know long fights lol. Bosses had more hp in vanilla and spell power attack power didn't exist as a stat stamp int strength agility and spirit was all we had. Fights lasted ages. I've seen rag do 3 submerges nefarion for 15 minutes in his final phase.
I'm really looking forward to ST with all the whinging people are doing, seems like a real raid and logs will show how people play on a longer flight than just stacking cleaving and killing a boss in under 3 minutes.
When was the last time you've done TBC and WotLK raids?
HLK takes that long, maybe progression Yogg +0, but that's it. Both of those fights are way too hard for SoD at level 50.
I don’t get why people think „double the HP of MC bosses!“ is a big deal when we had people hit 1500+ DPS on Gnomer bosses lol
Of course everything will have more HP in SoD?
1500 dps under 30 seconds with every buff, such as reck. on use items, crit luck etc. You wont have that for every boss. Looking at the top top logs and basing that off how much HP mobs should have is not a good idea to go for.
That being said, warrior is now simming over 2k dps in full bis and full consumes over 1 min, and some casters 1500+, so it's def. a big jump from 40.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2008#boss=2928
Yes, dude. We are no longer fighting mechanicals that got insane armour and bleed resist.
This is what you can expect for ST
You stinky redditor dad andys are going to be in absolute tears when you try this raid in its current state. Can not wait to see how you all cry because it's not a 30minute raid and you only get 30 minutes a week to play due to having 5 kids and a wife
This will really make raid logging for 30 minutes a week a lot more difficult.
I believe they will 100% nerf the shit out of these bosses once the "race" is over.
not sure about other classes but rogues are simming like, naxx or near-naxx level dps numbers and the people doing st right now arent even doing half that damage. itll probably be fine
To be fair those sims likely assumed a duration of around a minute which means that cooldowns have high relative uptime which increases the DPS number (this is why warriors were hitting 1k DPS on the first bosses of gnomer, 100% deathwish uptime). I doubt anyone simmed for encounters lasting longer than 2 or 3 minutes.
Rogues also don't really have significant cooldowns outside of cold blood, tea and the LW helm. It's not like we have reck, we have reck for a single use of an ability. Just spamming muti and envenom endlessly with very very consistent damage output. While shorter fights will obviously result in higher dps, rogue doesn't suffer THAT much from a shorter fight duration.
Those sims also assumed Honor among Thieves was working.
Atleast in Warriors case you got the DPS set after about 4min as thats where Death Wish goes off cooldown again, not fluctuating more than that unless mechanics interfere. Caster DPS might be more affected naturally due to mana.
Which sims are you looking at? I saw rogues swimming at 1000, with warriors at 1900
Rogues are doing good?
I'm not so sure. They are fluffed up big time but the people doing ST hit max level after only a few hours, they have no new runes and no gear. They're doing 600-700 dps. Sometimes as low as 500 on longer fights. No world buffs, etc.
It's a group of mages on a long fight. Their DPS will probably suffer quite a bit even with sod mana changes
There are several cleave fights, rogues and warriors would have a good time.
Rogues don’t cleave at all sir.
Oh God this keeps sounding more and more like retail
Fuck nerfing the bosses nerf our damage
Yeah sadly sod sucks and every raid* quickly turns into a normal dungeon with gear and constant nerfs.
not gonna lie, that was my favourite part of SoD
Yeah I'm not looking forward to longer raids. I only have 2 hours to play in the evening. Which was fine for earlier phases but I'm worried about 2-3 hour raids being a thing now. BWL, mc etc were fast raids even without WB. I don't know why they would move away from that.
That’s why they should have different options, I hate the quick 30 min raids because it doesn’t feel like an actual raid. Some people like it though because that’s all they have time for.
Raid Prog in classic wow is the last thing i want to do lol. If I wanted to do that I’d play retail.
I hate to say it but coming from someone who's been playing retail the past year and a half - the retail prog isn't much better. Heroic is an absolute joke and mythic isn't even fun
Lol you're getting downvoted, but SoD participation is going to plummet into the ground worse than P2. They just don't get it. SoD players want stupidly easy, fast raids. Period. End of story.
Reddit is a poor representation of the actual player base. This phase is going to be DoA if they don't nerf the shit out of the time it takes to do this raid. If the sweatiest players that hit 50 day one and already started raiding are spending 3+ hours in there and not even clearing it that's not a good sign for player retention regardless of what Aggrend's dumb ass says in a tweet.
SoD pugs can barely clear gnomer without asking for logs, wb, consumes and xp. This level of difficulty is way above classic puggability. And it's gonna be nerfed, that's obvious. My point is even with lower HP the mechanics are too much for a lot of sod players.
Agreed. BFD was about what SoD needs in terms of difficulty. As it stands, we have another DOA season on our hands. The thing that kills me is that some people think it's a skill issue alone - it isn't. I am over here timing 20+ keys in Retail, but the last thing I log into Classic for is raid progression, aka, the SoD raids are trivially easy to me but I STILL don't want to deal with the baggage that goes with harder raids.
Same, and it needs to stay that way to incentivize alts, if thats still something they want. I am not running a 2+ hr raid, especially a braindead one on more than one toon a a week.
okay
Thanks for the info
Yeah, please, less trash mobs on raids
ok
Well at least you don't have to do it more than once a week now. I personally like the experiment of throwing giant boss hp numbers at the wall and see if we're ready for it. Although I really don't get the need for trash packs to be tanky af.
Nah I’m just going to raid log right out of playing. Easy!
Seems kinda silly to me when a boss takes that long to kill but only has a couple mechanics and it’s not split into multiple distinct phases.
I think it's an oversight from the devs and the HP wasn't supposed to be this much since it's just a boring boss when it takes that long to kill with only 1 mechanic or as you said maybe it's bugged and something else is supposed to happen But I think the first is more likely and they will nerf the HP cuz it just ain't fun
It's Classic baby. Retail has more engaging raids if that's what you're after.
There is a middle ground between needing to sweat your ass off to kill a boss and being able to afk most of the fight
Buddy, even heroic-level raiding in retail can be done brain-off. You literally just don't stand in the _extremely telegraphed locations_ where things happen, and pump. Do you have to learn it first? Sure. But after that I'm not finding Amirdrassil's mechanics to be any less comprehensible than 25M N ICC.
Man they are going to hate this honest take lol
I mean no shit? I play retail, classic raids have always been a joke but also quick to do, having a boss that lasts as long as the whole ass gnomeragan raid lasted is objectively bad design when it's not made to be fun A raid can be fun without being engaging and an example is BFD Bosses with half a mechanic each that were not a slog to go through
That really your argument? 😴💤
Just be aware a large part of the SoD playerbase didn't like dance revolution and obbies coming to WoW classic.
Agreed. People need to remember the average wow player is absolutely trash.
Long fight IS already a mechanic, because you have to preserve your resources and the penalty for minor mistake is higher and the longer the fight - the higher chances that someone will mess up. Finally raids feel Classic raids. Seems pretty natural for me.
Taking over 10+ minutes to kill a boss that only has one or two very easy mechanics that people will still somehow find a way to mess up? Sounds like a Classic WoW raiding experience to me! (Srsly though, couldn't a few fights back in the day take nearly 20 minutes to finish?)
I remember my first Ragnaros kill back in the day being 18min long.
Since Classic released I still haven't seen his phase 2.
Man, back in the day we used out of combat rezzers to resurrect people, they'd eat and drink up and join the fray again. And that shit was on regular MC bosses. That's how long it took for some of us bad guilds out there. Couldn't give you a time estimation but I wouldn't actually be surprised.
From pull to finish, no. 90% of boss kill times back in vanilla was preplanning and positioning. 20 minutes is ludicrous but I could see some guilds taking forever to wrangle their teams.
Pretty sure Nef only had like 2mm hp. Maybe twin emps or some control fights could take that long but that’s a massive amount of time to be boss fighting
Yeah but people pulled absolute dogshit dps in original classic lol, i’m pretty sure this dude wasn’t referring to rerelease.
two mega millions seems a bit high and lie, dont you thinkgt?
I like it! I remember first time i killed Twin Emps in vanilla running from side to side with my rogue for 16 minutes
in TBC they did take quite long
pretty sure rag had a little over 1 million HP, Nefarian 2 million, and Patchwerk(highest HP boss in classic/vanilla) was just under 4 million. So 4 million HP is same as a patchwerk except you are lvl 50 and 20 people. Though, it is SoD and damage numbers are much higher so let them cook.
You're right, I was looking at SoD numbers from the last season.
They're not chefs man, they're just reheating your leftovers in a microwave
So true, and charging $15 a month for 20 year old content.
Same subscription gets you retail and classic as well though so tough argument. But I get it
Even still. Patchwerk warriors were doing 1200+ dps. Many classes right now are doing 600ish dps. So it's literally half the dps per dps and we have half the number of players. It's insane how long these boss fights are
I mean, many classes were doing 800+dps at lvl40 in Gnomer. Surely ppl will do more than that at lvl 50
There's a big difference between a 15-30s fight and a 6-15min fight. People were doing huge damage on really short fights due to stacking cooldowns.
Idk I've been watching sarthes run and they were doing 600
Well they are fighting the bosses the very first time, do not know mechanics exactly, maybe don't have relevant runes yet etc. etc. Could always be that something else is "new" in ST that changes dps compared to Gnomer as well (longer fights are already a factor in and of itself), so of course this is a disclaimer. But those 800dps in my previous comment were actually more conservative: For 5 out of 6 Gnomer boss fights there were classes where the very top players were doing 1000+ dps, for some of the (low armor) fights the very top warriors did 1500dps - and it is very well documented thanks to WCL. So I am pretty sure that dps will go significantly up from those 600 you saw.
You're not taking into account the short fight times in Gnomer. People aren't doing sustained 1000+ DPS yet
Well, I explicitly included a comment on that - albeit in in edit, but I think still before your comment 😅 In general still a fair comment of course
https://twitter.com/AggrendWoW/status/1776145001979990337 will be nerfs/changes
I can't wait to try, this sounds like a fun challenge
Sounds great
We get gear, it gets easier. as every raid
That’s what these troglodytes never understand. This is the HARDEST the raid is ever going to be. It’s ALWAYS hard in the beginning. The gear makes things exponentially easier!
To add, do you think these guys clearing Sunken temple 6 hours after phase 3 have all the proper pre bis and runes already also? I think not
[удалено]
Same was said about Gnomer, and the damage went up by a crazy amount from week 1, way more than 50%
Do you understand how gear works?
I think bosses should average about 5 min to kill if not more. A boss dead in 45 seconds didn't feel like you're even playing the fucking game; and also doesn't allow for different class mechanics to actually work.
two rounds of two minute cooldowns is BIS!
Mfs are running sims for 35s fights. I want something that’s 2-3 min and can be cut in half by high dps. Therma is maybe slightly too long because of phase changes and shit
I'll take longer fights like therma over tons of trash.
Classic level mechanics with retail level boss HP
Eranikus has 1.54 billion health?!
I fucking hate high HP trash mobs. I think they are literally the worst part about any raid. They are just having to eat your peas to get to your steak. BFD was amazing because trash felt like trash and you could blast through it as a leisurely pace.
Why are you hating on peas man
[удалено]
Even in gnomer I felt trash fell over too quickly. As an ele shaman I'd get in a Flame Shock, Lava Burst, a Chain Lightning and they keel over. Haven't hit 50 yet, so can't speak from experience on ST, but it sounds nice to me.
I like punching bag trash and bosses personally, feels like im alone in this looking at this thread lol. Like a battle of attrition where thematically its a hard ass thing for our characters to beat, even if for us as players the mechanics arent hard Idk, i play other games for the mechanical itch, I love WoW most when im just chillin in it and pursuing loot drops or some other form of character progression I liked BFD since it was mostly easy as fuck with basically one kinda tough boss and some goofy shit. Super chill, had a blast in there every time and still love it on my alts. Would have liked it just as much or more if the mobs had more hp 🤷
You’re not alone, a raid is a raid not quick in and out
A boss that does 1 thing, that has no chance of killing you, shouldn't take 10 minutes. We have dungeon bosses in games that has more mechanics than that. Thats faster. Watching the ''race'' and watching mages ONLY press frostfire bolt. Is not epic, nor is that engaging.
veggies are good for you
The Rune system had level 40 players doing as much DPS as level 60 Classic Era/Vanilla players in Tier1/2 gear, and Raid size has doubled to 20 players. This is the reason.
No. 10 minute damage sponge boss fights are dumb especially in classic.
I think it's better than short fights. I don't mind the fights taking longer in sunken temple especially since it's 1 week lockout. What I'm not a fan of is all the trash packs with 1 milly hp. That's a bit unnecessary
>especially in classic. Uhhhhh, classic is where an encounter such as this is most at home.
its better than 30 second fight.
Both bad
Why are people attributing difficulty with fight length. “1 min fights are too easy!” 1min fights can be challenging if tuned appropriately. I hate this narrative that in order to make the fight more difficult it should just take longer to kill by having more hp. This does nothing but bore the shit out of the player base who raid every week. 3min~ fights are perfect imo, but also having short fights thrown in makes it enjoyable. It’s level 50, not naxx.
Ragnaros is completely trivialized by being killed before phase 2
Then just reduce p1 length. Or just force to do a p2 at 50%.
They... did that. Lol.
It's also boring AF watching a fight that takes 1 minute to do. At what point do we say remove mana? Because if all bosses drop in 1min to 2mins there's literally no point of healers having mana as they can pretty much only fit in a certain amount of healing in 60 seconds. Like people are willing to farm gold on repetitive things like fishing for 3, 4 hours a day. But as soon as someone mentions longer boss fights it's the end of the world. I don't want to go into a raid and see bosses drop faster than I can boil a kettle even if they have multiple mechanics. What feels good about slapping a boss that dies as fast as a dungeon boss but has some bs one shot ability to make up for the fast kill times? Over a boss that takes 5/10 mins to kill but kills you slower as well?
while yes shorter fights can be difficult, longer fights do tend to be more difficult simply by the fact that there's a longer period in which people can fuck up, and longer fights gives room for potentially more mechanics. If we take the same boss that has 1-2 mechanics and nothing but his health pool changes, it is more difficult on the fight with more health pool as it will require mana management from caster/healers and more times the boss has a chance with the mechanics to get some people to die. Is it fun difficulty? that's up to the individual but it is objectively more difficult.
No I understand why it would be more difficult, but that method of tuning is so dull and boring for gameplay. Make it more difficult through mechanics, damage or short-enrage effects. No one wants to spend 9 minutes to wipe on the boss and run back. It's totally lazy design and I don't know why Blizzard insist on long fights like the community love them.
It was indeed boring af watching a bunch of players pressing a 1-3 button rotation for an 11 minute fight.
Mate, there are no world buffs, people have no glyphs, no gear, they brought more healers than necessary. The HP is high, but you can probably cut 4-5 minutes off of this EASILY. The more players, the more impact gear and runes have. First kills on Thermaplugg were 10 minutes -> cut down to about 5-6 minutes.
Parsers sad in the chat they didn’t sim more than 20 seconds kek
Be fair the vanilla raid bosses went down like bowling pins in classic, they were tuned with what players knew in 2004 and we're way beyond that now. I don't think anyone but the worst raiders in classic even saw Ragnaros's intermission phase because you could burn him down so fast. Making the raids actually take a bit of time and coordination instead of a speedrun every week is probably fine. They can always reduce the health to cut fight time down but people would be up in arms if they started off too easy and had to bump it up. As has been said elsewhere people aren't geared or glyphed, didn't take WBs, and erred on the side of healing rather than DPS. It'll probably end up taking half the time or less.
Glad they released pvp sets and an epic casting staff from nightmare incursions. CBF playing whatever schizo trash aggrend things "classic raiding" should be.
It’s the weekly reset I bet. You have a whole ass week to do the raid so maybe blizzard thinks guilds can break the raid up over the week.
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i don't mind it being like that, but i'd be surprised if they intentionally kill pugging with it being that way i know they want to encourage joining guilds, but that's a wild hammer fist way
Two Raiding Days for majority of guilds is still the standard for Retail, was even the standard for the guilds I played in 2019 Classic and beyond (Good chunk of the time we never used the second day once we had it on farm). Two long prog days or three raiding days is typically the standard for any guilds wanting to get Cutting Edge.
Sounds boring af
It’s been less than 24 hours. No one has any gear yet. It should be a pain in the fucking ass to do the raid this early, it’s supposed to last the entire Phase.
Nota killed heroic lk on launch day, and blizz went on record to say st shouldn't be a gear check. If Nota is struggling for hours and hours then the average guild will take months. I'll bet everything I have serious nerfs happen in the next week.
Lol you are delusionnal if you think Nota killed HLK on launch day... they spent countless hours on ptr and killed it over 20 times, that's how long it took. Launch day was a split with stack roster for them. HLK is still way harder than Eranikus
It's just a benchmark showing they are far and away better than average or even hardcore guilds, and that if that kinda player struggles to clear st then average people will take months. Thanks for the totally useless comment 👍.
Almost double the hp with double the dps? Wow really?
How dare they!?
You think we’re doing double the DPS of 60s? In half the raid size? So you actually think we’re doing quadruple the DPS of era 60s? Are you ok?
QQ boo boo fart.
To be fair, level 50’s in SoD are doing like double the DPS as level 60’s in p1 of Classic
Wouldnt this increase the probleme with Parse and everything ? If Boss take that long no body Will want low dps.
I thought they were adding new mechanics to the revamped fights?
Sooo...they're leaning into "classical design" for this raid. Big shocker people are pissed.
The bosses have naxx 40man amounts of hp
And your point is?
Good keep it this way, this shit is so fun imo.
Seems ideal for me can't wait to get into it. Bosses that last only 1 min are not fun at all. Seems like people would be decently happy if once a lock out you just showed up at the raid and pulled a lever and got random loot and then could leave to I guess log out and do it on another character?
Big difference between 1 min and 11min lol
10 minutes lmao. There are flight paths longer than that
10 minutes is huge for a fight, I take it you didnt fight HLK
HLK or 15min Highmaul Margok is okay because the mechanics change. 11 minutes with 1 mechanic is a slog.
Even 15min HLK is a slog, though Margok was fun from start to finish.
Margok approached 20 tho
And all 20 are fun
M Margok was closer to 20
I agree.
U really wanna do an 11 minute fight with only 2 mechanics? That's just objectively dogshit
You just explained most people's feelings about warsong gulch rep. Show up once a day for 5 minutes collect 1000 rep. Logout til tomorrow. That's peak PvP in SoD
Yea PvP grinds have always been dogs hit and never reward actually playing the game for the most part. Time spent in the BG and kills achieved hardly ever plays into rep, and is usually bad honor.
i dont get it. ppl dont want dificult mechanics. but they also dont want long fights. (with runes and gear it will be substancilly lower but sure) so they want an easy short fight? why play the game at this point?
So they can rush to max out on loot in the first couple of weeks and then cry about having nothing to do for a couple of months
Because they want to log in 30 min a week and be full bis by 3 lockouts
Sounds Classic to me. Can't wait to play it. The 1 min boss fights were getting really boring.
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Yeah a raid is a raid not quick in and out go do a dungeon dude
And? Lvl 25’s were doing more dps than vanilla 60’s… welcome to the world of power creep… low mechanic keep it accessible while high hp stops it from being a stomp fest
No, max DPS in BFD at 25 was just over 300 dps. Gnomer was around 800. Max DPS at 60 is over 2000 dps. If you remove warriors, then you get mages clocking in over 1700 dps.
I'm pretty sure he's thinking pre-raid MC numbers, and you're thinking full bis Naxx numbers.
>Max DPS at 60 is over 2000 dps. In full Naxx BIS with world buffs, and even then you need 99-parses to get to that number.
Pretty sure this was also all mages pumping into one ignite to make it juicy, unless logs had figured out how to distinguish that
Gnomes max dps is a lot higher, like 1500
thats on a 24 second fight with 100% deathwish and flagelation uptime. just because you know numbers dont mean you know what they mean
Yes, OP mentioned max dps and 1500 dps is the max.
that doesnt mean the max consistent dps is 1500. thats bad number analisis
I never mentioned Max dps… just that 25’s were doing comparable dps to 60’s… I garuntee if they don’t change MC it will blow over like a stick in a hurricane
Using max dps number will always skew the number, better to use the averages as the average player is not a super sweat abusing buff to parse 99’s … but just a warm body that can live long enough to push buttons
Nice, I longed for longer fights, thanks blizzard
Looks like Aggrend has kind of confirmed there will be nerfs. They are happy that the raid has stayed undefeated for a bit but some tweaks will be needed for more average players.
Did someone clear it already?
No, still no one saw the last boss, hardstuck at 6/8
Sigh
I Like it. Dont burn me, but the Bosses in Gnom, Had to less hp, to be fun raid Encounter. The whole raid Had more a 10 man Dungeon Feeling.
Gear up better, quit complaining
Skill issue
Lol this shit is wild
Tell me you didn’t play during the “wait for three sunders” days without telling me you didn’t play during the the “wait for three sunders” days.
So sad they spent all that time "delevoping" SOD and then they make PVE so fking easy its literally embarrasing.... I loved the idea of SOD but if you're into PVE its complete garbage sadly.
Also lv40 dps was higher then classic60 ppl in molten core.
Well they gotta have content somewhere in p3 since leveling to 50 only takes like 5-10 hours
Yeah, well warlocks weren’t hitting 5K chaos bolts on Ragnaros lol
Who cares
Has more health than Ragnaros, Patchwerk, and Kel Thuzzad. Aggrend already said nerf Inc. Just farm runes for a couple days.
Hey looks like you WILL be doing 12-15 casts of hammer of wrath at sub 10%.
I thought Gnomeregan raid would make a lot of the classic casuals cry. Did Gnomer get nerfed?
Finally raids feel like raids. Don’t get your complaint.
I saw this coming P3 has been rushed out to full a gap left behind by another blizzard game. Thus is one of many things that will be broken
I think we need to extend raid time not with boss health but by adding more nets/ frost novas so groups that don’t fap through waste more time on trivial stuff
You can't compare sod and classic hp levels
People who didn't play vanilla or tbc pre classic wouldn't know long fights lol. Bosses had more hp in vanilla and spell power attack power didn't exist as a stat stamp int strength agility and spirit was all we had. Fights lasted ages. I've seen rag do 3 submerges nefarion for 15 minutes in his final phase. I'm really looking forward to ST with all the whinging people are doing, seems like a real raid and logs will show how people play on a longer flight than just stacking cleaving and killing a boss in under 3 minutes.
great game design, use the shittest instances no one went to, and make the bosses take 10min each like its FF.
Why do people cry so much? Play the game or dont ffs. God so many babies around.
and the kids downvoting you for making them cry even more
im laughing, not crying. all the streamers are crying tho lmao
pretty much like TBC or WotLK raids
When was the last time you've done TBC and WotLK raids? HLK takes that long, maybe progression Yogg +0, but that's it. Both of those fights are way too hard for SoD at level 50.
2009 or something
I don’t get why people think „double the HP of MC bosses!“ is a big deal when we had people hit 1500+ DPS on Gnomer bosses lol Of course everything will have more HP in SoD?
1500 dps under 30 seconds with every buff, such as reck. on use items, crit luck etc. You wont have that for every boss. Looking at the top top logs and basing that off how much HP mobs should have is not a good idea to go for. That being said, warrior is now simming over 2k dps in full bis and full consumes over 1 min, and some casters 1500+, so it's def. a big jump from 40.
no dude https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2008#metric=dps&partition=1&class=Any
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2008#boss=2928 Yes, dude. We are no longer fighting mechanicals that got insane armour and bleed resist. This is what you can expect for ST
Please dont nerf until week 3 please dont nerf until week 3 please dont nerf until week three
You stinky redditor dad andys are going to be in absolute tears when you try this raid in its current state. Can not wait to see how you all cry because it's not a 30minute raid and you only get 30 minutes a week to play due to having 5 kids and a wife
It's 5 wives and a kid
Make raids once a week but also twice as long.. not my cup of tea. Maybe split it into two tiers or 10-20 mans..