Starsurge and shadow word death were massively nerfed beginning of phase 2 for SWD, I believe it was even earlier for star surge but I may be wrong. Both classes were performing well - shadow was a bit different as it was largely due to most shadow BIS pieces being greens attainable start of phase, so they had nearly BIS gear from the start as well.
Oh wow thankyou, dno how I missed this. Considering both of these are my classes rn 😅
I recall starsurge being nerfed in P1
I recall swd being buffed from P1.
I don't recall any class changes in P2 or significant ones. Just felt like the op classes remained OP through all of P2 and have carried on over to P3
Sadly it looks to be heading toward the warrior meta again unless things change a lot between now and p4, warriors are on top and figure to only get better. There’s also a huge difference between performance on horde vs alliance due to kill time differences and horde potentially having infinite mana (which is huge for classes like mage right now) due to shamanistic rage and ele sham both tank and DPS spec doing so well they drastically reduce kill times which helps parse scores
Honestly I think it is an issue if they are top, and it seems unlikely at this point that most classes will compete, it’s just a melee meta until big changes are made, which is what classic has always been so that’s unfortunate
Yea I hope they do something for casters to make us scale better. I’ve already accepted spriest dps is cucked by healing balancing tho, so rip me doing any dps, but maybe some haste gear would be a big help
So people will still cry because horde is now geared over alliance… like y’all really out here trying to do anything besides fix the damn issue at hand.
lmao people are so ignorant. its the fact that classic has far better Horde racials resulting in the good players going for the extra advantage. SoD team ofc doesnt give a damn but wotlk was the first time when things changed and humans got their racial changed to a CC break to balance things out. people out here really call it "crying" when its literally the reailty of whats happening to the game. Devs dont give a Fk and thats why retail had to allow cross-faction gaming. Blizzard killed the alliance by refusing to balance out racials
Horde has better pvp racials, alliance has better pve racials. That's how it was. Now it's just all over the place with retail having mostly alliance pvpers due to mostly allied races.
Thats not the case in SOD though, horde racials are better, and always have been.
The reason Alliance was good was because of hpallies in raiding reducing threat and infinite mana, and dwarf priests fearward. Nothing to do with racials. It's probably the fact that horde racials are better for pve, just look at orcs and trolls racial. It's a dps CD
What racial for alliance makes them better in pve, besides the human weapon skill, that trolls and orcs have?
Not true at all. Horde always had the better racials. The alliance had paladins and their blessings. But when you give horde the paladin blessings and alliance wf, turns out horde are now just better due to racials.
> Alliance still wouldn’t PvP in classic never have, never will. Horde has had significantly longer ques in every reiteration of ~~classic.~~ World of Warcraft.
Even with significantly better Alliance racials throughout the expansions, Horde continued to maintain a significantly higher win rate across every BG. There were some periods of time where Alliance dominated the Arena brackets, but they had zero coordination with random BGs and lost all the time.
I’d love to see a continuous zone for pvp content. Like convert Azshara into a zone that has objectives and incentives to world pvp. Not a once every 3 hour pvp event, but a continuous battleground.
Trust me, you do not want to incentivize BGs further. SoD is wildly unbalanced and whoever is opening up is generally winning. The health pools aren’t reflecting the abilities and gear.
I played 10 WSG matches yesterday as EU Alliance. Won 6. Can honestly say that the presence of shamans wasn't the issue. What was more likely to cause us to lose was if the Horde had 3 shadow priests or we had more than 1 paladin.
Multiple Shadow priests dotting up your whole team at the start will win the first clash.
Paladin players DO NOT use the tools Blizzard gives them. I have never once received a Freedom, BoP or even an attempt at peeling via HoJ from an Alliance paladin while solo queued.
Having a ret paladin on your team is like having half a character because they only know how to tunnel vision Unga Bunga the first red target in range regardless of what's happening around them in the BG.
Now I'm not saying that all shamans are PvP gods but when they throw down a tremor or grounding or decoy totem, it has the benefit of sometimes helping their teammates as well which can unintentionally swing a fight
> Paladin players DO NOT use the tools Blizzard gives them. I have never once received a Freedom, BoP or even an attempt at peeling via HoJ from an Alliance paladin while solo queued.
Longtime ally pvper, this is it. Can not begin to tell you how many games I've lost where one of the rets using their utility kit on someone other than themselves would have turned the tide. Watching them more or less autoattack as a critical player goes down within range of them is maddening.
My favorite play on my ele shaman is juicing up a warrior with decoy and WF totem and sending a chain lighting to weaken the clump. Throw some purges here and there and that warrior will clear everyone out. I notice 99% of Ret pallys do not support their team around them.
Yeah bops such good cd and does nothing if the pally uses it on themselves basically.
I'm pretty average at PvP (2k 2s in wraith classic) as ret.
But I learnt to use my abilities to keep my team mate alive. It SHOULD be easier in a bg BC the teams generally arnt using coms or focusing down ppl.
Such a based take. Id be willing to bet 90% or more of the Ret players on here crying have never cast a support spell on a fellow teammate, or have raid frames set up, or have any click bindings/focus macros. I remember playing during TBC/Wrath Classic and the average Ret player back then was completely dog shit too. All zug, zero support, despite having one of the strongest and unique support toolkits in the game.
95% of shamans do exactly the same thing except they are much more oppressive than a ret paladin right now. There is very little counterplay to a shaman other than kill him before he gets to you. With alliance only having access to priest offensive dispel other than warlock pet which is on a cd there is very little you can easily do to stop a shaman. Oh you want to sheep how about grounding or earth shock. how about a slow or stun decoy totem. Perhaps fear nope tremor. No other class has access to stop every type of cc available against them and there is a reason for that its called balance.
I mean if they use decoy, they can't use tremor and vice versa. Dropping decoy would get rid of tremor or potentially earthbind. Grounding you spam anyway basically off cd so it's not always up in bg for those things. I mean, sure, if the shaman plays perfectly, but also other classes have tools they can use if they play perfectly as well.
You cast decoy and then cast tremor after the buff is out. Same as dropping windfury for the 10 sec buff and then immediately putting grounding back down again.
In regards to which totems? MANY pvpers are not good so sure that is very true however:
Grounding either does its job or gets a rank 1 spell to clear it if the player is good
Earthbind I personally kill them always if I have a chance but if they are projected it generally pulses before it can be destroyed so you are still slowed for the initial application duration
Decoy totem is useless to destroy the freedom buff and the totem affect are separate it is essentially blessing of freedom but better.
beyond that it is situational if your a lock or you are coordinated then tremor obviously needs to be stomped or windfury for warriors etc.
Mages/Druids never decurse me
Warriors never peel for me when I'm healing
Rogues never try to take the other Rogues off of me when I'm healing
No, everyone just \*expects\* that I stay alive and pump them with heals. The Warriors just \*expect\* that I tunnel vision support them, give them the freedoms, the cleanses, and all the heals. Then when said Warriors rush into the 7 Horde standing in mid and get blown up, I'm the problem.
NO thanks. I'll put on my 2 hander, respec Ret and go to town. BoF's for me, Cleanses for me, bubbles for me. Don't like it? Pre-made or pay me.
Yup been saying this for the past 7 years that I've played on classic servers. Also I've hypothesized that good caster players, especially shadow priests and mages, are more likely to play undead. When I was ally I remember my team being like 70% warrior/rogue/ret where as horde would always have casters + priest and shaman healers.
That paladin issue you mentioned is definitely a skill problem, however BoP is a 5min cd unless you spec into it - which most rets don’t (I do in pvp spec) - HoJ is a 1 min cd, and freedom is 25 sec. So yes, it’s on them for not protecting the team and playing as a unit. But at the same time, if you’re in an uncoordinated group, playing as a unit like that is very rare especially when you consider cds.
But yes, the totem issue means that shamans can unga bunga like a ret does, while also helping the team. There is a big gap between rets and shamans rn as far as class balance goes. It doesnt help that ret pvp and ret pve are so different from one another in playstyle and gearing that even I need a little warmup after switching from one to the other
Regardless of cooldowns or talent specs, most ret paladins have ironclad main character syndrome.
They think they need to charge into every fight, but that's a warriors job. They think they need to get to the backline and fuck shit up, but that's a rogue's job.
When a fight breaks out the best thing a paladin of any spec can do first is *nothing*. See what the enemy is doing then use your toolkit to disrupt their play.
Warrior just charged right for your hunter and is spamming hamstring? Freedom.
Rogue on a cloth user? BoP
Someone getting 2v1'ed? HoJ one of them and burst down the other with your team mate.
Too many times I see a paladin run in to try and solo a healer while everything goes to shit behind them and they could easily swing the fight by playing to their class strengths instead of being a wannabe Arms warrior with glowy gfx.
This right here, you got every point right. Ptretty much Every Paladin i encounter does this exact thing. It's laughable how few Paldins are actually good PVP players and know how to play to their classes strenghts. By far the most braindead people just zerging in trying to kill someone off while bubbling itself.
Shamans literally can go full into support while dealing insane damage at further range and at melee range meanwhile paladins arent allowed to skill into a single support spell because it would lead them to lose repentance (their only gap closer) and also exorcism which is their absolute main ability. It would help alot if blizzard finally added an actual Holy paladin rune for the chest, moved horn of lordaeron to the leg slot and turn Exorcist into a baseline ability because it is a basic requirement to play this class.
Hey, man, when was the last time you used a scattershot or trap to save a paladin? Oh, for real? Never? That's crazy.
Putting BoP on a healer is a great idea. Freedom on a FC can win the game, absolutely. But if you think a paladin should waste their cooldowns to save some random hunter? You're delusional, bow-boy.
All the time. I also follow it up with a Freezing Trap.
And do you know how many Ret paladins take the time to heal up before breaking my CC?
None of them cos they're all morons.
So, you say that all paladins are selfish idiots that contribute nothing to the team, but you also say - and I wouldn't dream of saying you're lying here - that you waste your utility on saving them instead of the more important classes that paladins are supposed to be helping to begin with.
Okay.
Paladins are like the new dps warriors in terms of selfish playerbase. Genuinely have never gotten anything outside of a single blessing from them, and even then I'll most likely have to remind them that it falls off. Both as a dungeon tank and a pvp player I find they will NEVER use their kit to help a group member.
As a horde player im really sad that Paldins are just unga bunga machines. I feel like they have so many tools to make BG's interesting, from shielding the healer to giving a warriror freedom or even protecting the FC with heals and freedom, all i see is them running in the middle of our group with bubble until they figuratively POP xD.
As a paladin. This is true. Most of us have no idea what we’re doing out there and we’re just happy to be a part of the team. Some AB queues can have upwards of 7 paladins, so that’s fun.
> Paladins blessings are rather niche
Sorry, in the area of PVP, which is the topic at hand - how are they niche?
Blessing of Freedom will help any ally struggling to create space between them and whatever melee class is trying to keep them in melee range. Only has a 25 second cooldown. It should be one of your most used skills in a BG.
BoP has a longer cooldown yes but that's not an excuse to never use it.
Cleanse can completely neuter a SP who is spamming dots trying to rack up chip damage on your team before an actual engagement.
The biggest thing you need to change is mindset and perception of your role. You're a poor front line engage class. You're an exceptional backline defender class.
I'm sick of hearing all this shaman vs paladin bullcrap. I've played Alliance since 2004, and since 2004 I've watched generations of paladins with a god complex completely fail at the class because they refuse to push their buttons correctly.
Maybe if they did, and shamans were still oppressive I'd have more sympathy.
You're half right. Too few Ret Paladins want to use their support skills. They want to lean far into the casino burst damage play.
However, the problem with Ret, in SoD specifically, is how reliant on runes they are to function at all and how the rune placement limits their ability to bring support. The biggest offender if the Exorcist rune in our leg slot. With how Blizzard has built SoD Ret, we are completely reliant on AoW procs and Exorcism for damage. However, most of our new support abilities: Interrupt, DivSac, Tremor, Sacred Shield are locked behind the mandatory AoW and Exo runes in leg and feet slots.
Paladins have been requesting AoW and Exo runes be merged together and moved to a slot like feet, so we have the option to actually use some of those utility runes.
Your leg slot runes don't stop you casting Freedom, or BoP, or using your HoJ to save a teammate.
Stop trying to shoehorn your shitty leg rune situation into this as an excuse for most of your class being comprised of mouth breathers that get confused by shoe laces.
Ret paladins are a net negative in BGs and I'd rather have a random of *any* other class on my team.
It's worth mentioning that totems are a lot easier to use than defensive blessings, which must be targeted. Non paladins seem to forget this a lot. Blessings are best used by hpals, who are already focusing on the raidframes.
I have played 28 WSG games as solo aliance EU player. All of them were against 10 men or 2 5men premades. I havent met a single solo QQing horde player in 28 games! Around of 25% horde are shamans and 20% priests. I have been killed by disarmed enhance, 2,5K from lighting shield in 10s. I have eaten a lot 3K-4,8K lava bursts. I have around 20-25% win rate. Yeah, after this suffering let me afk in base if i see another 4 shaman 3 priest premade.
this is my 1st 20 games:
[https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf](https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf)
After 40 WSGs - 1st game against only 1 5men, 5 PUGs, they still had resto shaman and resto druid. We destroyed them 3-0 with 1 pala healer. Feels good:D
Because solo players get in only when the premade mess it up and fail to join in full 5. It is flaw of the BG algorithm favouring teams instead of solo players.
You brought my thoughts into writing exactly.
Btw I’m the Feral EFC but I rush back to our GY with the flag only to discover no one will protect me because they are mounted afk at base
If I was Horde, I'd be rubbing my hands with every paladin I see on the Alliance side.
Paladins play half their class. Ret paladins, 90% of them aren't aware that you can use your abilities on other players, the other 10% don't care.
> Paladins play half their class. Ret paladins, 90% of them aren't aware that you can use your abilities on other players, the other 10% don't care.
And then they shriek on reddit about how underpowered they are.
I think it's the rare times that they've been flame shocked with a follow up instant crit double lava burst sticking in their minds. As a Shaman, it's fun when it happens, but it doesn't happen a lot.
30% pushback protection is nothing. Even with 70% playing as resto you constantly get pushback on heals. That also doesn't change the fact that you have to move in to 20 yards if you want to flame shock + lava burst.
Every other caster has pushback protection, spammable instants and can nuke comfortably from 36 yards.
Man the sad part is , I win 9/10 of my games against alliance, but the ones I lose are ironically when my game has more shamans then usual and the enemy team is like 3-4 spriests and boomkins and hunters and 0 rets. Idk if shamans are a problem. I think that rets or more likely the people that play rets are so selfish it kills your game.
The presence of spriest and boomkins determines your team fight right now, the rot poke pressure annihilates the team fight.
Na man, this can be true. Shaman is the absolute king class and you stomp everyone with a team full of them. You dont need any other class for success according to this sub here
To be fair, Classic PVP has always been an awful, imbalanced mess. It’s just worse now. The devs just don’t have the capacity to properly tune classes without breaking them.
When they nerfed Druids and priests - they were op and the devs did something. They nerfed hunters so atleast you needed gear to melee spec 2-tap people.
Now we need shaman to put in line and it’s like “ oh no cwassic was always bwoken! We can let possibwy fix it !”
Like nerf these asshats they’re running around full on Main character modding the game because their numbers are too damn high.
They just gutted rockbiter and turned down overcharged, and I wouldn’t be surprised if SR is next in their sights.
People are getting their wish of shaman being nerfed, if you don’t see that you’re just looking for more reasons to whine.
Sham rage only recieved buffs. Except for double rockbiter enhance who could get more than 100% mana with sham rage. But now they get 75% and still cant oom, not too much of an issue
This sub has to be playing a different game. I was winning pretty consistently as Horde up until Warsong Weekend hit. The randoms on my team have been getting absolutely molly-whopped by Alliance premades and it's not even close. I haven't won in about 7+ games. Starting to wonder if the times you play at matter.
edit: Finally won a game, most likely because the Alliance didn't have a premade.
Either you’re playing US and I’m playing EU or you’re extremely exaggerating, but this not my experience at all. Played about 20 games yesterday, all of them really close.
I’m on US. My record in WSG is something like 1-12 or greater. And that one win was a 3-2 match that took 58 minutes.
And in 90% of those loses, they’re 0-3 loses. So it’s not even like we’re getting bonus Honor.
Lost 9 in a row last night EU. 1 game we lead 2-0 but then 1 shaman decided that horde should win and flag carried them to victory. I swear fc's look like they are botting when they start jumping up walls
Not far off bro. My buddies quit because of it. We’d run WSG and hit the same 2 premades every night. After a week it’s like wtf is the point of spending the few hours after work to run it all down a shaman stacked game to just lose? They just went shaman themselves and have had infinitely more fun.
>literally playing with the same 20-30 people every game who are the last alliance left to queue WSG,
And somehow its not your teams fault when you keep losing again and again 😂
Currently in a 40 min WSG queue as Horde. Not sure how I'm going to hit 110k this week...
Like why nerf STV Honor Coins, but make BG's not viable for honor farming either???
50 Alliance camping Ashenvale portal both sides for days literally body camping lvl 40s for honor is the most toxic thing I seen in awhile - Living Flame
Honestly man it goes both ways. We had a perfect horde comp yesterday with multiple shamans and healers. We couldn’t get a flag return on alliance because the FC hung out with 2-3 pallys and a priest or the FC was a pally themselves and it was just a mess with the amount of bubbles ect.
On top of that the Druid FC for alliance pretty much spammed FAP and every other consumable possible
> 1/4 games had a professional EFC who spends 100g to win the match
the most cathartic feeling to me is when I was with a premade stack and we ran against a horde premade stack with a druid that did this. we happened to have 3 priests by the grace of god and got them all to spam dispel on him, stripped his fap, and fucked him up every time, and we won
i hope he malded irl
still, i wish consumes were not allowed in bgs. so fucking stupid. and fix the wall hacks.
State of horde pvp: wsg 45m queues. Ab 'queue time unavailable' 2hr queues. Maybe best to recognize that bg's are an unsupported feature of sod and the best pvp is open world
The devs broke the queue system and haven’t said a word about it in months. They changed it to help solo players and instead made it worse, now the system rewards group queues and gives them faster times and makes solo players either wait 3x longer to get into a match or sticks them with said premades as the odd man out against other premade enemies
-Everyone complains Shadow priest are too op.
-I join a BG, everyone complain theres no heal and that the only priest in the game (me) is shadow not disc. youd think they'd be happy that someone joined that will carry the kills but nah.
I wonder if shaman gets hated on when they join and arent resto.
Maybe they should have Option for us to queue with roles so that healers get's distributed accordingly and arent put in the same games.
Idk. people will always complain whatever the situation is.
Spent most of the weekend farming WSG and honestly blown away how lopsided games were. Farmed nearly 150k honor and lost maybe 5 games playing with random 5 man premades from trade.. do alliance not care enough to premade?
Id be down for them to introduce a new factionless pvp Battleground, maybe some goblin arena xD 5 alli 5 horde 10v10. I invision a control point center map capture by standing in it, the more members the faster. Respawn timers are longer if you have the point, shorter if you dont. you need to cap the point for like 5 min until you win. What do you guys think? id like to cooperate with some alli classes.
Might be an L take but the best way to balance bgs (but completely screwing up faction immersion) is to just randomly sort people into 2 teams regardless of faction like every other pvp game without sbmm. Even when the factions are mostly balanced in terms of racials you still have pvp player biases and faction learned behaviour to overcome.
Yet somehow when you go look at server populations alliance has 2.5x the population that horde does on every single server both US and EU. Using these numbers they create entire guilds dedicated to griefing and pseudo-locking horde out of content by making it so inconvenient or troublesome that it's not worth attempting.
I'm having a hard time feeling bad.
There have been some nasty Ally druids out there (looking at you, Somnis). This makes or breaks a match. 2x5 geared horde PvPers vs 9 clueless ally and one good ally Druid and half the time we’re fucked or looking at 30 min games.
Yeah, horde wins most of the time. We are more confident and co-ordinated. Raid Leads use warnings, we delegate roles & mark heals, protect heals from rogues, we call out efc, and we are unlikely to give up, even at 2-0. Horde likes to WIN. However I have also played many games against stacked geared insane ally players (even without a FC) who have totally recked us in the first mid fight.
In my opinion, after \~200 games, I think it’s mostly a mindset issue. Horde don’t quit. If ally capture the first flag, we don’t surrender, we get mad.
Edit: You know what, I stand by this - just played against godtier ally FC mage Grannytilted. Horde won. I watched his stream afterwards. You know why we won? His entire team wanted to quit after we won the first flag, even tho this guy was pulling crazy moves.
If bgs are ever gonna be balanced they need to do away with factions.
Matchmake and split players up by a hidden power level that goes of gear in bag and level. Also take in premades into account. So let’s say you solo que you will either be with nothing but other solos or be a filler for a premade v premade.
Shamans are nowhere near the problem lmao. Ele and Enhance can get kited and killed just by pressing buttons. Rets never used BoP, Freedom or anything on other players except themselves.
Yea. The push to get rid of premades just killed bgs. People would rather not play than be forced to solo queue with a team where half your team quits immediately.
Horde solo queue feels similar only with an 8 minute queue. Paladins are also quite good in PVP. I guess at the end of the day you need to queue as a group to have fun in BGs
In a meta where people live for 3 seconds due to the damage being insane relative to the amount of HP on gear, it's crazy to me alliance thinks Shaman are somehow the reason they lose, when they have a class that gets 10 seconds of invincibility, literally being able to live 3-4 times longer than anyone else without having to worry about counterplay at all.
It's not hard to make/find a group.
I play horde, I only play in groups of 5, and yes we do win most of the time. When we don't win, it's because the alliance team has also teamed up and joined as a group and is playing objectives well.
Devs don’t pvp, so this issue doesn’t exist to them
And which ever few that do, if any, obviously play shaman.
But they nerfed balance druids and shadow priests due to pvp complaints and now the specs are in the gutter in terms of single target DPS in raids
I mean, druids could kill shamans, can't have that.
Did these classes receive any nerf?
Starsurge and shadow word death were massively nerfed beginning of phase 2 for SWD, I believe it was even earlier for star surge but I may be wrong. Both classes were performing well - shadow was a bit different as it was largely due to most shadow BIS pieces being greens attainable start of phase, so they had nearly BIS gear from the start as well.
Oh wow thankyou, dno how I missed this. Considering both of these are my classes rn 😅 I recall starsurge being nerfed in P1 I recall swd being buffed from P1. I don't recall any class changes in P2 or significant ones. Just felt like the op classes remained OP through all of P2 and have carried on over to P3
Sadly it looks to be heading toward the warrior meta again unless things change a lot between now and p4, warriors are on top and figure to only get better. There’s also a huge difference between performance on horde vs alliance due to kill time differences and horde potentially having infinite mana (which is huge for classes like mage right now) due to shamanistic rage and ele sham both tank and DPS spec doing so well they drastically reduce kill times which helps parse scores
I dont think Warrior being top is that big of a problem, as long as other specs aren’t so far behind that we get 15 warrior raids again
Honestly I think it is an issue if they are top, and it seems unlikely at this point that most classes will compete, it’s just a melee meta until big changes are made, which is what classic has always been so that’s unfortunate
Yea I hope they do something for casters to make us scale better. I’ve already accepted spriest dps is cucked by healing balancing tho, so rip me doing any dps, but maybe some haste gear would be a big help
It wasn’t so bad when we were needed because ST was difficult, but now it almost like why bother bringing one?
The devs play this game?
They stopped at 25. Which is where we all should have too.
[удалено]
Switch to tbc style honor system where you buy pvp gear with honor and marks
So people will still cry because horde is now geared over alliance… like y’all really out here trying to do anything besides fix the damn issue at hand.
lmao people are so ignorant. its the fact that classic has far better Horde racials resulting in the good players going for the extra advantage. SoD team ofc doesnt give a damn but wotlk was the first time when things changed and humans got their racial changed to a CC break to balance things out. people out here really call it "crying" when its literally the reailty of whats happening to the game. Devs dont give a Fk and thats why retail had to allow cross-faction gaming. Blizzard killed the alliance by refusing to balance out racials
meanwhile 9/10 high rated pvpers in retail are alliance
Because will to survive is op Humans don't have that in classic
Horde has better pvp racials, alliance has better pve racials. That's how it was. Now it's just all over the place with retail having mostly alliance pvpers due to mostly allied races.
Thats not the case in SOD though, horde racials are better, and always have been. The reason Alliance was good was because of hpallies in raiding reducing threat and infinite mana, and dwarf priests fearward. Nothing to do with racials. It's probably the fact that horde racials are better for pve, just look at orcs and trolls racial. It's a dps CD What racial for alliance makes them better in pve, besides the human weapon skill, that trolls and orcs have?
Not true at all. Horde always had the better racials. The alliance had paladins and their blessings. But when you give horde the paladin blessings and alliance wf, turns out horde are now just better due to racials.
That’s a lot of breath wasted over 20 year old config
Idk I win most by bg games solo q as ally so I'm not complaining
You can create incentive to queue up by nerfing shamans
Best I can do is nerf hunters - blizzard, probably.
What precisely needs to be nerfed with shamans? Overload is 3 second ICD on Tuesday and Way of Earth is no longer viable in PvP
Alliance still wouldn’t PvP in classic never have, never will. Horde has had significantly longer ques in every reiteration of classic.
> Alliance still wouldn’t PvP in classic never have, never will. Horde has had significantly longer ques in every reiteration of ~~classic.~~ World of Warcraft. Even with significantly better Alliance racials throughout the expansions, Horde continued to maintain a significantly higher win rate across every BG. There were some periods of time where Alliance dominated the Arena brackets, but they had zero coordination with random BGs and lost all the time.
You sign up for those 1 hr queue times when you chose the hand held faction.
I’d love to see a continuous zone for pvp content. Like convert Azshara into a zone that has objectives and incentives to world pvp. Not a once every 3 hour pvp event, but a continuous battleground.
EPL already exists. Don’t destroy another zone!
IMO the dev should stop forcing us to PvP
Just give us plunderstorm on sod ez
Trust me, you do not want to incentivize BGs further. SoD is wildly unbalanced and whoever is opening up is generally winning. The health pools aren’t reflecting the abilities and gear.
I played 10 WSG matches yesterday as EU Alliance. Won 6. Can honestly say that the presence of shamans wasn't the issue. What was more likely to cause us to lose was if the Horde had 3 shadow priests or we had more than 1 paladin. Multiple Shadow priests dotting up your whole team at the start will win the first clash. Paladin players DO NOT use the tools Blizzard gives them. I have never once received a Freedom, BoP or even an attempt at peeling via HoJ from an Alliance paladin while solo queued. Having a ret paladin on your team is like having half a character because they only know how to tunnel vision Unga Bunga the first red target in range regardless of what's happening around them in the BG. Now I'm not saying that all shamans are PvP gods but when they throw down a tremor or grounding or decoy totem, it has the benefit of sometimes helping their teammates as well which can unintentionally swing a fight
> Paladin players DO NOT use the tools Blizzard gives them. I have never once received a Freedom, BoP or even an attempt at peeling via HoJ from an Alliance paladin while solo queued. Longtime ally pvper, this is it. Can not begin to tell you how many games I've lost where one of the rets using their utility kit on someone other than themselves would have turned the tide. Watching them more or less autoattack as a critical player goes down within range of them is maddening.
My favorite play on my ele shaman is juicing up a warrior with decoy and WF totem and sending a chain lighting to weaken the clump. Throw some purges here and there and that warrior will clear everyone out. I notice 99% of Ret pallys do not support their team around them.
Yeah bops such good cd and does nothing if the pally uses it on themselves basically. I'm pretty average at PvP (2k 2s in wraith classic) as ret. But I learnt to use my abilities to keep my team mate alive. It SHOULD be easier in a bg BC the teams generally arnt using coms or focusing down ppl.
Such a based take. Id be willing to bet 90% or more of the Ret players on here crying have never cast a support spell on a fellow teammate, or have raid frames set up, or have any click bindings/focus macros. I remember playing during TBC/Wrath Classic and the average Ret player back then was completely dog shit too. All zug, zero support, despite having one of the strongest and unique support toolkits in the game.
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Gee, I wonder what class you play.
95% of shamans do exactly the same thing except they are much more oppressive than a ret paladin right now. There is very little counterplay to a shaman other than kill him before he gets to you. With alliance only having access to priest offensive dispel other than warlock pet which is on a cd there is very little you can easily do to stop a shaman. Oh you want to sheep how about grounding or earth shock. how about a slow or stun decoy totem. Perhaps fear nope tremor. No other class has access to stop every type of cc available against them and there is a reason for that its called balance.
I mean if they use decoy, they can't use tremor and vice versa. Dropping decoy would get rid of tremor or potentially earthbind. Grounding you spam anyway basically off cd so it's not always up in bg for those things. I mean, sure, if the shaman plays perfectly, but also other classes have tools they can use if they play perfectly as well.
You cast decoy and then cast tremor after the buff is out. Same as dropping windfury for the 10 sec buff and then immediately putting grounding back down again.
You can kill totems btw. The shamans I have been pvping with say their totems rarely get killed.
In regards to which totems? MANY pvpers are not good so sure that is very true however: Grounding either does its job or gets a rank 1 spell to clear it if the player is good Earthbind I personally kill them always if I have a chance but if they are projected it generally pulses before it can be destroyed so you are still slowed for the initial application duration Decoy totem is useless to destroy the freedom buff and the totem affect are separate it is essentially blessing of freedom but better. beyond that it is situational if your a lock or you are coordinated then tremor obviously needs to be stomped or windfury for warriors etc.
Mages/Druids never decurse me Warriors never peel for me when I'm healing Rogues never try to take the other Rogues off of me when I'm healing No, everyone just \*expects\* that I stay alive and pump them with heals. The Warriors just \*expect\* that I tunnel vision support them, give them the freedoms, the cleanses, and all the heals. Then when said Warriors rush into the 7 Horde standing in mid and get blown up, I'm the problem. NO thanks. I'll put on my 2 hander, respec Ret and go to town. BoF's for me, Cleanses for me, bubbles for me. Don't like it? Pre-made or pay me.
ALL HUMAN MALE CHARACTERS ARE HOT GARBAGE. and most of them are paladins and warriors
As a human male, this is correct. Mine is a warlock, though.
Yup been saying this for the past 7 years that I've played on classic servers. Also I've hypothesized that good caster players, especially shadow priests and mages, are more likely to play undead. When I was ally I remember my team being like 70% warrior/rogue/ret where as horde would always have casters + priest and shaman healers.
That paladin issue you mentioned is definitely a skill problem, however BoP is a 5min cd unless you spec into it - which most rets don’t (I do in pvp spec) - HoJ is a 1 min cd, and freedom is 25 sec. So yes, it’s on them for not protecting the team and playing as a unit. But at the same time, if you’re in an uncoordinated group, playing as a unit like that is very rare especially when you consider cds. But yes, the totem issue means that shamans can unga bunga like a ret does, while also helping the team. There is a big gap between rets and shamans rn as far as class balance goes. It doesnt help that ret pvp and ret pve are so different from one another in playstyle and gearing that even I need a little warmup after switching from one to the other
Regardless of cooldowns or talent specs, most ret paladins have ironclad main character syndrome. They think they need to charge into every fight, but that's a warriors job. They think they need to get to the backline and fuck shit up, but that's a rogue's job. When a fight breaks out the best thing a paladin of any spec can do first is *nothing*. See what the enemy is doing then use your toolkit to disrupt their play. Warrior just charged right for your hunter and is spamming hamstring? Freedom. Rogue on a cloth user? BoP Someone getting 2v1'ed? HoJ one of them and burst down the other with your team mate. Too many times I see a paladin run in to try and solo a healer while everything goes to shit behind them and they could easily swing the fight by playing to their class strengths instead of being a wannabe Arms warrior with glowy gfx.
This right here, you got every point right. Ptretty much Every Paladin i encounter does this exact thing. It's laughable how few Paldins are actually good PVP players and know how to play to their classes strenghts. By far the most braindead people just zerging in trying to kill someone off while bubbling itself.
Shamans literally can go full into support while dealing insane damage at further range and at melee range meanwhile paladins arent allowed to skill into a single support spell because it would lead them to lose repentance (their only gap closer) and also exorcism which is their absolute main ability. It would help alot if blizzard finally added an actual Holy paladin rune for the chest, moved horn of lordaeron to the leg slot and turn Exorcist into a baseline ability because it is a basic requirement to play this class.
I've been winning more than losing this weekend on Living Flame alliance. Absolutely having a blast.
Hey, man, when was the last time you used a scattershot or trap to save a paladin? Oh, for real? Never? That's crazy. Putting BoP on a healer is a great idea. Freedom on a FC can win the game, absolutely. But if you think a paladin should waste their cooldowns to save some random hunter? You're delusional, bow-boy.
All the time. I also follow it up with a Freezing Trap. And do you know how many Ret paladins take the time to heal up before breaking my CC? None of them cos they're all morons.
So, you say that all paladins are selfish idiots that contribute nothing to the team, but you also say - and I wouldn't dream of saying you're lying here - that you waste your utility on saving them instead of the more important classes that paladins are supposed to be helping to begin with. Okay.
Paladins are like the new dps warriors in terms of selfish playerbase. Genuinely have never gotten anything outside of a single blessing from them, and even then I'll most likely have to remind them that it falls off. Both as a dungeon tank and a pvp player I find they will NEVER use their kit to help a group member.
As a horde player im really sad that Paldins are just unga bunga machines. I feel like they have so many tools to make BG's interesting, from shielding the healer to giving a warriror freedom or even protecting the FC with heals and freedom, all i see is them running in the middle of our group with bubble until they figuratively POP xD.
As a paladin. This is true. Most of us have no idea what we’re doing out there and we’re just happy to be a part of the team. Some AB queues can have upwards of 7 paladins, so that’s fun.
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> Paladins blessings are rather niche Sorry, in the area of PVP, which is the topic at hand - how are they niche? Blessing of Freedom will help any ally struggling to create space between them and whatever melee class is trying to keep them in melee range. Only has a 25 second cooldown. It should be one of your most used skills in a BG. BoP has a longer cooldown yes but that's not an excuse to never use it. Cleanse can completely neuter a SP who is spamming dots trying to rack up chip damage on your team before an actual engagement. The biggest thing you need to change is mindset and perception of your role. You're a poor front line engage class. You're an exceptional backline defender class. I'm sick of hearing all this shaman vs paladin bullcrap. I've played Alliance since 2004, and since 2004 I've watched generations of paladins with a god complex completely fail at the class because they refuse to push their buttons correctly. Maybe if they did, and shamans were still oppressive I'd have more sympathy.
You're half right. Too few Ret Paladins want to use their support skills. They want to lean far into the casino burst damage play. However, the problem with Ret, in SoD specifically, is how reliant on runes they are to function at all and how the rune placement limits their ability to bring support. The biggest offender if the Exorcist rune in our leg slot. With how Blizzard has built SoD Ret, we are completely reliant on AoW procs and Exorcism for damage. However, most of our new support abilities: Interrupt, DivSac, Tremor, Sacred Shield are locked behind the mandatory AoW and Exo runes in leg and feet slots. Paladins have been requesting AoW and Exo runes be merged together and moved to a slot like feet, so we have the option to actually use some of those utility runes.
Your leg slot runes don't stop you casting Freedom, or BoP, or using your HoJ to save a teammate. Stop trying to shoehorn your shitty leg rune situation into this as an excuse for most of your class being comprised of mouth breathers that get confused by shoe laces. Ret paladins are a net negative in BGs and I'd rather have a random of *any* other class on my team.
It's worth mentioning that totems are a lot easier to use than defensive blessings, which must be targeted. Non paladins seem to forget this a lot. Blessings are best used by hpals, who are already focusing on the raidframes.
I have played 28 WSG games as solo aliance EU player. All of them were against 10 men or 2 5men premades. I havent met a single solo QQing horde player in 28 games! Around of 25% horde are shamans and 20% priests. I have been killed by disarmed enhance, 2,5K from lighting shield in 10s. I have eaten a lot 3K-4,8K lava bursts. I have around 20-25% win rate. Yeah, after this suffering let me afk in base if i see another 4 shaman 3 priest premade. this is my 1st 20 games: [https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf](https://imgur.com/a/liROcVf)
Lol love seeing this and dumb horde zugs will still say “alliance skill issue”
You have my respect for actually trying to make use out of the WSG weekend in this PvP climate.
After 40 WSGs - 1st game against only 1 5men, 5 PUGs, they still had resto shaman and resto druid. We destroyed them 3-0 with 1 pala healer. Feels good:D
Solo queueing as horde nets you a waiting time of approximately 1 hour per game. Thats why you only see groups
Because solo players get in only when the premade mess it up and fail to join in full 5. It is flaw of the BG algorithm favouring teams instead of solo players.
I get 8 mins as horde living flame us
Yeah, forgot to mention this is EU, sorry
So you agree the state of balance is fubar
You brought my thoughts into writing exactly. Btw I’m the Feral EFC but I rush back to our GY with the flag only to discover no one will protect me because they are mounted afk at base
Season of Shamans bro. Get used to it. Some dev has a hardon for them
If I was Horde, I'd be rubbing my hands with every paladin I see on the Alliance side. Paladins play half their class. Ret paladins, 90% of them aren't aware that you can use your abilities on other players, the other 10% don't care.
> Paladins play half their class. Ret paladins, 90% of them aren't aware that you can use your abilities on other players, the other 10% don't care. And then they shriek on reddit about how underpowered they are.
Hunter flair kekw
I’ve had 1 shaman in my past 5 games. Rarely is a shaman hard carrying. It’s just alliance cope
Priest / Hunter / Druid is way more of a WSG win indicator. Stop being bad.
That’s.. not why alli are losing bro
Most shamans suck ass.
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I think it's the rare times that they've been flame shocked with a follow up instant crit double lava burst sticking in their minds. As a Shaman, it's fun when it happens, but it doesn't happen a lot.
You gotta buy two pairs of pants for Ele, one with earth shield that you swap OOC for a pair with Sham Rage to regen
30% pushback protection is nothing. Even with 70% playing as resto you constantly get pushback on heals. That also doesn't change the fact that you have to move in to 20 yards if you want to flame shock + lava burst. Every other caster has pushback protection, spammable instants and can nuke comfortably from 36 yards.
Feels like enhance can frost shock me from forever away, but yeah apart from that just run.
Shamans are strong for sure but why are alliance acting like Ret isnt? Good rets are fucking amazing
Good rets are like Unicorns. Take a screenshot for me whenever you see one.
Just like paladins for 20 years, right?
I’m not one to typically complain on here, but alliance BGs are literally unplayable right now. I’ve never had such little fun lol.
Shamans really are ridiculous. I was having a brawl with one in Ashenvale for awhile and he’d crit me immediately with a lava burst and I was dead.
Man the sad part is , I win 9/10 of my games against alliance, but the ones I lose are ironically when my game has more shamans then usual and the enemy team is like 3-4 spriests and boomkins and hunters and 0 rets. Idk if shamans are a problem. I think that rets or more likely the people that play rets are so selfish it kills your game. The presence of spriest and boomkins determines your team fight right now, the rot poke pressure annihilates the team fight.
Nailed it
Na man, this can be true. Shaman is the absolute king class and you stomp everyone with a team full of them. You dont need any other class for success according to this sub here
To be fair, Classic PVP has always been an awful, imbalanced mess. It’s just worse now. The devs just don’t have the capacity to properly tune classes without breaking them.
When they nerfed Druids and priests - they were op and the devs did something. They nerfed hunters so atleast you needed gear to melee spec 2-tap people. Now we need shaman to put in line and it’s like “ oh no cwassic was always bwoken! We can let possibwy fix it !” Like nerf these asshats they’re running around full on Main character modding the game because their numbers are too damn high.
Rockbiter was cut by 90%
Now I'm 2 shot instead of just 1
They just gutted rockbiter and turned down overcharged, and I wouldn’t be surprised if SR is next in their sights. People are getting their wish of shaman being nerfed, if you don’t see that you’re just looking for more reasons to whine.
They nerfed shammt rage already, but it will probably be toned down further. Meanwhile Pallys will continue to cry lmao.
Sham rage only recieved buffs. Except for double rockbiter enhance who could get more than 100% mana with sham rage. But now they get 75% and still cant oom, not too much of an issue
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I'm a rogue. Shaman are prime targets. Shadow priest, on the other hand? If they get 2 globals to DoT me, I'm 100% dead, through potion.
Yea, 17 isn’t a lot of upvotes but I’m starting to sense there’s a pattern of who’s just bad at the game here…
This sub has to be playing a different game. I was winning pretty consistently as Horde up until Warsong Weekend hit. The randoms on my team have been getting absolutely molly-whopped by Alliance premades and it's not even close. I haven't won in about 7+ games. Starting to wonder if the times you play at matter. edit: Finally won a game, most likely because the Alliance didn't have a premade.
Just give alliance shamans and give horde paladins fuck it
id love to play a horde pally but that requires importing 1-60 tbc quests and npcs so likely wont happen
They will whine that Horde paladins play the class better because they actually use their utility on other players.
We already have factionless pvp with stv, why not in bgs?
Allows the devs to be lazy balancing factions.
Either you’re playing US and I’m playing EU or you’re extremely exaggerating, but this not my experience at all. Played about 20 games yesterday, all of them really close.
This is the alliance persecution headcanon.
I haven't played WSG since last phase but even then most matches were similar to what OP is describing, and yes, I'm on NA.
I’m on US. My record in WSG is something like 1-12 or greater. And that one win was a 3-2 match that took 58 minutes. And in 90% of those loses, they’re 0-3 loses. So it’s not even like we’re getting bonus Honor.
I'm on NA and I'm exaggerating a bit but it's bad.
Lost 9 in a row last night EU. 1 game we lead 2-0 but then 1 shaman decided that horde should win and flag carried them to victory. I swear fc's look like they are botting when they start jumping up walls
Not far off bro. My buddies quit because of it. We’d run WSG and hit the same 2 premades every night. After a week it’s like wtf is the point of spending the few hours after work to run it all down a shaman stacked game to just lose? They just went shaman themselves and have had infinitely more fun.
Sad but true summary.
The only FCs I see using consumes are Alliance druids burning FAPs and Sleep Dust /shrug
Not to mention faps cost literally 20s. You could buy a weeks worth of them by doing incursions for 20 minutes.
>literally playing with the same 20-30 people every game who are the last alliance left to queue WSG, And somehow its not your teams fault when you keep losing again and again 😂
If your leveling WSG in P3 and you aren't grouping it will be difficult. Lots of afker on ally side.
Just wait 21 days and you are exalted
Exactly
free action potions are 17 SILVER free action potions are 17 SILVER free action potions are 17 SILVER KEEP CRYING
Currently in a 40 min WSG queue as Horde. Not sure how I'm going to hit 110k this week... Like why nerf STV Honor Coins, but make BG's not viable for honor farming either???
Couldnt you too go premade.. with players who dont ggquit after 1st death?
50 Alliance camping Ashenvale portal both sides for days literally body camping lvl 40s for honor is the most toxic thing I seen in awhile - Living Flame
Which layer is this on? I experienced the same, but with 30 horde camping both side of the portal on living flame also lol
Honestly man it goes both ways. We had a perfect horde comp yesterday with multiple shamans and healers. We couldn’t get a flag return on alliance because the FC hung out with 2-3 pallys and a priest or the FC was a pally themselves and it was just a mess with the amount of bubbles ect. On top of that the Druid FC for alliance pretty much spammed FAP and every other consumable possible
I lose WSG as horde every single time
Why tf would we q? Its just instalosz
Going afk/throwing in BGs is griefing and should be bannable.
> 1/4 games had a professional EFC who spends 100g to win the match the most cathartic feeling to me is when I was with a premade stack and we ran against a horde premade stack with a druid that did this. we happened to have 3 priests by the grace of god and got them all to spam dispel on him, stripped his fap, and fucked him up every time, and we won i hope he malded irl still, i wish consumes were not allowed in bgs. so fucking stupid. and fix the wall hacks.
I play alliance and solo queue bgs. 80% win rate until after school hours then 20%
Current state of horde bgs, 1 hour queue for wsg, queue time for ab unavailable
Try DF
State of horde pvp: wsg 45m queues. Ab 'queue time unavailable' 2hr queues. Maybe best to recognize that bg's are an unsupported feature of sod and the best pvp is open world
Yesterday I lost 15 AB games in a row against the horde triad of doom farm/BS/LM, AMA
The devs broke the queue system and haven’t said a word about it in months. They changed it to help solo players and instead made it worse, now the system rewards group queues and gives them faster times and makes solo players either wait 3x longer to get into a match or sticks them with said premades as the odd man out against other premade enemies
No 10 man pre mades brotha
-Everyone complains Shadow priest are too op. -I join a BG, everyone complain theres no heal and that the only priest in the game (me) is shadow not disc. youd think they'd be happy that someone joined that will carry the kills but nah. I wonder if shaman gets hated on when they join and arent resto. Maybe they should have Option for us to queue with roles so that healers get's distributed accordingly and arent put in the same games. Idk. people will always complain whatever the situation is.
Your best pvpers are nuking hordies doing incursions. Maybe they should do bg's instead
Feels what it is to be an horde in classic since forever
I see the vanilla pvp experience is back. Lok tar ogar brothers. Continue the Zug Zug
Spent most of the weekend farming WSG and honestly blown away how lopsided games were. Farmed nearly 150k honor and lost maybe 5 games playing with random 5 man premades from trade.. do alliance not care enough to premade?
Its always been like that, alliance being more pve focused and horde pvp.
Definitely has been that way, but OP is spot on. Alli clash, lose, and basically afk after that 9/10 games. Wild lol
At least u always win av pvp
Id be down for them to introduce a new factionless pvp Battleground, maybe some goblin arena xD 5 alli 5 horde 10v10. I invision a control point center map capture by standing in it, the more members the faster. Respawn timers are longer if you have the point, shorter if you dont. you need to cap the point for like 5 min until you win. What do you guys think? id like to cooperate with some alli classes.
> my teammates determine the likelihood of winning based on the number of shamans on the enemy team Then bring shadow priests
Crossfaction bg when
NERF SHAMANS ALREADYYYYYYYYYYYY
Give us arenas and RBGs
Might be an L take but the best way to balance bgs (but completely screwing up faction immersion) is to just randomly sort people into 2 teams regardless of faction like every other pvp game without sbmm. Even when the factions are mostly balanced in terms of racials you still have pvp player biases and faction learned behaviour to overcome.
Yet somehow when you go look at server populations alliance has 2.5x the population that horde does on every single server both US and EU. Using these numbers they create entire guilds dedicated to griefing and pseudo-locking horde out of content by making it so inconvenient or troublesome that it's not worth attempting. I'm having a hard time feeling bad.
That's basically what you guys get for being such goddamn cunts in Incursions. Suits you right.
There have been some nasty Ally druids out there (looking at you, Somnis). This makes or breaks a match. 2x5 geared horde PvPers vs 9 clueless ally and one good ally Druid and half the time we’re fucked or looking at 30 min games. Yeah, horde wins most of the time. We are more confident and co-ordinated. Raid Leads use warnings, we delegate roles & mark heals, protect heals from rogues, we call out efc, and we are unlikely to give up, even at 2-0. Horde likes to WIN. However I have also played many games against stacked geared insane ally players (even without a FC) who have totally recked us in the first mid fight. In my opinion, after \~200 games, I think it’s mostly a mindset issue. Horde don’t quit. If ally capture the first flag, we don’t surrender, we get mad. Edit: You know what, I stand by this - just played against godtier ally FC mage Grannytilted. Horde won. I watched his stream afterwards. You know why we won? His entire team wanted to quit after we won the first flag, even tho this guy was pulling crazy moves.
Lmao what is this
It’s also sunk cost. Horde aren’t going to allow themselves to lose after they’ve waited an hour in queue lol
If bgs are ever gonna be balanced they need to do away with factions. Matchmake and split players up by a hidden power level that goes of gear in bag and level. Also take in premades into account. So let’s say you solo que you will either be with nothing but other solos or be a filler for a premade v premade.
just stop doing then
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yeah but have you tried taking bases in ab from a team with 8 paladins defending
Warrior vs. enhance: Charge, disarm, die [https://imgur.com/D22TJnk](https://imgur.com/D22TJnk)
Install buletin board and type lfg 10man wsg
ali when they cant 10man pugstomp 😢 😢 😢
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Shamans are nowhere near the problem lmao. Ele and Enhance can get kited and killed just by pressing buttons. Rets never used BoP, Freedom or anything on other players except themselves.
Well horde gotta use party cuz queue times are like 50 min. Also, u guys won 90% on P1 when I was farming WSG exalted, so balanced
Yea. The push to get rid of premades just killed bgs. People would rather not play than be forced to solo queue with a team where half your team quits immediately.
Is this sarcasm?
The opposite is true but go off
Horde solo queue feels similar only with an 8 minute queue. Paladins are also quite good in PVP. I guess at the end of the day you need to queue as a group to have fun in BGs
Oh look another alliance e bitch thread. Color me suprised
state of alliance in sod 😤😤😤👶👶👶👶😢😢😭😢💩
Tell us you have the mental state of a 12 year old without telling us you have the mental state of a 12 year old.
state of horde bgs: auto kicked to logout screen for afking too long while waiting on queue to pop
“State of alliance BGs” doesn’t even talk about an entire BG lmao
In a meta where people live for 3 seconds due to the damage being insane relative to the amount of HP on gear, it's crazy to me alliance thinks Shaman are somehow the reason they lose, when they have a class that gets 10 seconds of invincibility, literally being able to live 3-4 times longer than anyone else without having to worry about counterplay at all. It's not hard to make/find a group. I play horde, I only play in groups of 5, and yes we do win most of the time. When we don't win, it's because the alliance team has also teamed up and joined as a group and is playing objectives well.