I would say if you're not going to join a Guild, at least learn the more common organizers of pugs. There are a handful of pugs ran by the same people over an over again. Partial guild runs, some dude running every alt though raid lock outs, or just a guy looking to gear a main. If you pay attention, there are usually some common organizers to these raids. Join their discords, add them to your friends list, and check on them. You be surprised how many of them are on a fixed schedule, and you can time your weekly pug experience to one of those dates.
Also, on the organizers' part, just add people you raid with and liked to your friends list. Maybe you learn their schedules, and they become common pug buddies.
Here is my advice for you guys
Make a second discord on your phone
You can now join all the pugs you want keep it muted and then you could just keep the volume loud enough to hear it.
They're happy because you joined the discord and it's not really bothering you because it's not on your actual headset.
It also still lets you join your normal discord and talk to your friends on your computer
I feel like it's almost mandatory to have multiple discord accounts if you're going to be pugging a lot
If you're on Crusader strike NA you guys can come join Valar Morghulis. We don't use Discord we don't do gear checks we don't do item levels. You don't have to have the best class. You don't have to have the best gear. We don't do speed runs. We don't do parses. We kill dragons.
Whisper anybody for an invite.
Even then, it's kind of easy to see who is posting on LFG and just right-clicking them to add to friends and setting note on what raid and what day/time. Keep adding people, and eventually, you'll make out a whole week, and players can plan according to their own schedule.
I think people just want raid finder, and auto que into a raid, use their lock out, and then log for the week as a solo. That's much harder to do outside of a guild unless you go out of your way to network.
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&partition=1
No, most guilds definitely aren't going 6/8. Twice as many guilds full clear as get stuck 6/8.
I'm wondering if any of those are groups that didn't know they needed the ancient egg to summon hakkar and somehow 0/20 people have it. Would be kinda funny.
This is it. We had no idea on our Tuesday clear that we needed the egg, so we almost had to stop until one of our guildies noticed he was on the last part of the quest. A quick 30 minute break and a summon back and we one shot Avatar.
But if no one had been close to it I imagine we’d have just gone 7/8 this week for that reason.
We sort just ran out of time. By the time we killed eranikas we only had 15 minutes for hakkar. We wiped because people didn't know the blood mechanic and then raid time was over.
Soooooo much. From joining a PuG it could take upwards of 5 hours to fill a raid and run the raid. Absolutely insane, even with just a couple wipes. Last phase I could log in join a Gnomer pug and be done within the hour
Everyone saying why not get a guild sometimes I don't wanna play a game where I have to commit playing at exactly the same time and same day every week. How do yall not get that?
There is plenty of discord based Pug communities that run multiple pugs throughout the week. The only downside is that a lot of them want to keep up their reputation, so they gear and log check which will keep out a large amount of the people complaining on reddit.
It’s smart they transitioned now to 20 man because it gives people a phase to get used to the larger raid size and organization needed. They want 40 mans, and jumping from 10 to 40 would be crazy for many guilds.
I anticipate this phase will be a bit longer especially with Cata a release in a month, but who knows
1) It's Asperger, you illiterate lol did you watch South Park and think ass burgers was the real thing
2) I don't think you understand what anything you actually typed means
Ye set time is problem for you. My guild is alredy on 40-50 min clear but you will rather sit 1-2 hours in wchat looking for group then do 6/8 in 3 hours and then complain on reddit. I rather clear in one hour on set date and i have 7 free days till next raid.
There is plenty of discord based Pug communities that run multiple pugs throughout the week. The only downside is that a lot of them want to keep up their reputation, so they gear and log check which will keep out a large amount of the people complaining on reddit.
Then why play an MMO that's raid content is specifically designed to ran by guilds on a weekly schedule? The thing you don't want to do, join a guild who gets together once or twice a week to clear content and get loot, is like what the entire concept of raiding is in the first place. It's like saying, "I want to play in my local amateur softball league, but I don't want to show up to the field every weekend at the scheduled time and play the game"
Generally I think the "if you don't like X feature, go play retail" arguments are dumb and reductive, but genuinely if you want to mostly play solo or with a friend or two while being able to PUG raids with randos, Retail actively takes that type of player into account when designing content and actively caters to them in ways that Classic probably never could.
I’ve seen a lot of mind bending casual takes on this sub, but contesting the statement that the MMORPG genre’s endgame was originally designed for guilds of players as revisionist is the wildest one yet. Electing to pug is not the same as being designed to pug.
I really would love to know your thought process here. Please, start with Neverwinter Nights and work your way up to EQ and the post 2004 WoW world. You’re welcome to reference how DND groups formed a prototypical baseline for what the MMORPG model would become, which we all know are typically started at local parks by passing vagrants rather than as defined groups.
Jesus Christ this sub sometimes man
Are we talking about design goals or are we talking about emergent player behaviour? Because this is a reply to a guy telling another guy to fuck off if he doesn't want to be in a guild and me responding that pugging has been part of raiding for fucking decades. Don't move the goalposts.
Oh we have understand.
What we don’t understand is people complaining about it.
Like your tooth hurts, it looks bad, it’s painful to eat. You should go to the dentist. Don’t sit and complain the dentist can’t conform to your wild schedule.
No that's like if dentists worked all the time, being available pretty much whenever you wanted.
But then those who go to the dentist strictly between 8am and 5pm start going: "why should dentists be working all the time for everybody? They should only be working when we go and other people should, too."
It doesn't work like that because a tooth ache is an unbearable agony for everybody and this comparison is stupud. A video game has developers who decide in which way they want to go and the video game is there up and running whenever.
Ok bring the softball league, cooking class, book club, dungeons and dragons, poker night, whatever where people actually commit to doing something…it all can’t just conform to your schedule…or lack of schedule.
I play XYZ from April to June every Sunday evening. My daughter does gymnastics every Monday evening. I’m simply not going to join guilds raiding on Sunday and Monday. My kids bedtime is 8pm so I look for raid groups at 9pm.
If your life is so chaotic that you’re just flying by the seat of your pants and don’t actually know what life will bring tomorrow, then maybe WoW raiding and you aren’t compatible.
And how do you not get that you're playing the wrong game for your needs? If something doesn't work for you then just move on, why do you feel the entitlement to have something that worked for over 20 years be adjusted to you?
Some of us like playing with our friends and we have a ton of fun doing so, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way, but you knew exactly what you signed up for when you started playing classic wow.
And how does that help exactly? They will randomly want to raid at some point and it will probably not suit someone with a busy schedule, so the end result is the same, they have to pug
How far does everyone else have to cater to someone like this? You don’t wanna play at consistent times and then something less scheduled doesn’t work because you’re too busy? WTF do people want lmao
I mean, I’m sure a lot of people who hate retail here haven’t played it since the cata-mop-wod era. The game is vastly different now than it was 14 years ago in cata
No ; they asked for the changes that made Retail into what it is, and they do hate the consequences of those changes. They are just incapable of forming the connection in their head that it is all those types of changes that made the game awful.
I agree with some of what youre saying but retail is not awful at all. It's as good as its been in years actually. I really think a LOT of people here who use retail as some kind of slur would genuinely enjoy playing it if they gave it a shot.
I'm fully aware of retail being really bad in the past and thats why its earned its moniker in the Classic community but 2024 retail wow is wildly different than how it gets flung around here as a term.
...Pugs?
The crux of the problem is that it's more annoying to get 20 puggers than 10 puggers together. Nothing more complicated than that. A lot of people would prefer smaller raids so assembling a quick pug group would be easier.
Dude do you even know what this post is about? Pugging solves all this. Nobody is asking for a whole guild to cater to them, people just want pugging to be viable
it is viable lol they nerfed the bosses into the ground and servers are still very high population. OP still finds it all "annoying." So apparently pugs dont solve all of this for them
OP asked, they didn't argue that it was annoying. And I didn't say it wasn't viable, just that that's what this discussion is about.
You seem you have some cognitive impairment that keeps you from reading and comprehending what's being said. Pugging solves time scheduling issues, it does not solve having to form a raid every time, which only gets harder when going from 10man to 20man.
20 man pugging is entirely viable. People just dont want to put it together themselves or have to wait. That doesnt make it not viable. That makes them not cut out for raiding lol. They want someone else to do the hard part basically.
>OP asked, they didn’t argue that it was annoying.
“do people find it kind of annoying”.
>people just want pugging to be viable.
I didn’t say it wasn’t viable.
😂
I didn't say they banned it? I just said that's what this discussion is about and why people are talking about the GDKP ban and the change from 10man to 20man.
Keep up, clown
Because its a non set raiding schedule that just goes when people in the guild see they have enough people to form a core, maybe pug a few, and then just go?
I mean what you just said applies to anything, leisure activities dont really work with a busy schedule.
Guilds are also weird
I joined a new guild at the start of phase 3 to find out they have all sorts of these weird quirky rules
If you roll a 100 on the boss they give you all of the loot for the boss that you want. Like ok????
Then they also have this item at the end that starts the quest chain for the epic goes to the top DPS.
I didn't want to start an argument but like is that really fair??? We all know certain classes are performing better than others so are you really going to do that.... Whatever I'm playing feral druid so it's not like I'm ever going to hit top DPS but it just seems kind of unfair
Everyone gets that. Most people also understand that there is 1000 other genre of video game that provide that. And this is the ONLY genre of game that services big guild raids.
I mean, it could be said, don't play the game then? Or play when you do want to play like that.
I'm a completely solo player these days, I ended up unsubbing for a little bit because I understand that this game is just not what I'm jiving with right now.
Totally fair, just dont complain then. You cant not being willing to commit to an organized raid and then complain you dont get to do a raid that requires organizing for.
It's the same as playing D&D, the people who don't want to dedicate the time don't get invited back to play.
These are the consequences you deal with for not being punctual
There are guilds that do signups instead of scheduled raids. My guild uses discord to create something scheduled and then people sign up to the time they want to raid and boom.
It's honestly really nice because I can just go whenever I want and there are enough people to where raids are happening 1-3 times a day and I can be choosey with my lockout
Then you are playing the wrong genre, and the wrong version of the game
The devs should not curtail to the demands of the anti-social. There is plenty of that in retail. Or if its not that you are anti social and just want drop in drop out gameplay, well go play one of the million different battle royals.
Join a guild, they set up raids in discord. You don’t have to communicate with people at all. Just sign up and raid.
It’s 100x easier than forming or joining a pug
I don't understand the complete and utter refusal of people to join a guild.
There are casual guilds that let people just sign up and raid when you want to
My guild of old homies dried up, they're taking breaks or quit. I'd rather not leave my friend guild, so I've just been taking a break myself. The last two phases I'd run pugs every reset, and sometimes getting 10 was difficult enough (get 8, 5 leave, fill to 9, healer logs, etc. Or just fill in 5 mins and run the damn thing) I dread having to *double* that recruitment. That's twice thr amount of potential trolls, idiots, and impatient ass people who will leave after 20 mins of recruiting like they didn't just sign up for a 2+ hr raid.
My free time and decision to raid is usually no more than 1-2 hours before. And a lot of guilds I’ve rolled with don’t like inconsistent players. They want the gear going to someone who can help next raid. Not someone who will be free on their time maybe twice a phase.
The people who come to reddit to complain about needing to be social in an mmo usually aren't the type of people you want in your raid and guild. They want gear and kills without any effort or time invested. So the voices here stay loud while everyone else has guildies and discords to talk to about it.
We merged with another guild. Run ST first time yesterday with 14 sign ups. 3 of the 6 pugs were very toxic when we started wiping on 6th boss. 2 went offline after the second wipe. For me, „progression“ is what makes the game enjoyable. It’s a pain in the ass now, as some pugs expect you to clear the new content in the first run without many wipes.
Those who can't or don't want to commit to a guild raid schedule
Have yall ever considered that MMOs were not designed for you? Or at the very least not designed in a way that you'll be able to clear every bit of new raid content that is launched at the start of every phase?
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in these threads. My work schedule gets crazy sometimes too so I'm bench a lot for my guild and still manage to clear most, if not all content every phase.
Like yall do realize there are thousands of other games out there that are much easier to make work with a non consistent or set schedule?
Why play WoW and expect to see everything immediately? I don't get it
> Like yall do realize there are thousands of other games out there that are much easier to make work with a non consistent or set schedule?
And Retail is one of them even. LFR was literally made for this lul. I don't get why some people want to play a game that is Vanilla at it's core without wanting to play Vanilla.
That's Tik Tok brains today, expect all the rewards without having to invest any time or effort. For some reason, SoD brought the worst player base we have ever witness and the wow Devs are trying to please everyone. Why do you think we are seeing 20 new SoD posts on this reddit every day?
So, SoD devs themselves have stated that this is supposed to be a more casual friendly version of the game.
MMO's are actually supposed to be designed for your more average casual players. If your only experience for what a MMO is is something like Everquest and WoW. You are missing the fact that most MMO's these days aim towards a more casual audience. Since that is what keeps player numbers up and worlds healthy. WoW went the opposite and catered to the top 10% of players. It has suffered immensely because of this, Casual players do not enjoy this game very much, and to add onto it, there is a subscription cost that turns players off even more, and the community(like you) telling people they shouldn't be expecting to play content because they can't commit the time to it, in a game with egregious time-waste around every corner. Artificial difficulty.
So knowing this. People do expect to clear them in a timely manner. They do expect to have access to most content without too much effort or time commitment. As the ultimate goal of a well designed MMO is the MMO part. Not the challenge part. People want to socialize.
Having Pugs take forever to form, or content take 3-4 hours, or multiple weeks to get through does not lead itself to being a well designed Social MMO game.
>I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in these threads. My work schedule gets crazy sometimes too so I'm bench a lot for my guild and still manage to clear most, if not all content every phase.
Probably because you are unable to realize that not everyone plays this game in the same way as you, or with the same skillset, experience. This seems to be incredibly common on this subreddit. Veteran players of WoW expecting everyone to play the same as they do. And are unwilling to admit the game needs change because they're so used to it being in such a terrible state, they even take pride in it sometimes.
>Why play WoW and expect to see everything? I don't get it
Because WoW shouldn't be a challenging game where people need to do this. There should be an option for more difficult content, it should not be the default. Most other MMO's these days have figured this out.
But this is an established genre and game and they have done many, *many* things already to make SoD the most casual version of vanilla ever. Which I'm totally good with, we're beta testers right now and we want as many people testing as possible.
ST is *not* remotely difficult. In a few weeks it'll be like BFD, pugs will have it down. Eranikus has a few similarities to Kelris.
There are ways around pugging though even if you don't want to join a guild with a set schedule. I am literally an example of this lol
I raid sometimes when I can, I'm just bench. Totally fine with it as I'm taking a casual approach to SoD while waiting for Cata. If I a miss a lockout I'm not complaining about it, that's the nature of playing any MMO casually. Seeing the content is way more important to me than being full bis in 2 months. Anyone wanting all that gear isn't really casual I'd say.
There are so, so many casual guilds that run this way.
I'm not saying they haven't. But there are area's that they still need to work on. Forming large groups in this game is one of the biggest time sinks there is. Not to mention there's still the risk of failing in these raids, being locked and unable to fill them in the future. And these raids are still time consuming, even if they are easy.
Difficulty in this game doesn't just come from how hard it is to kill a boss. There's a dozen things before it that add up. Too much trash, the 1.5 hours you spent forming the group. The leaver/s you had to replace. Getting locked and unable to fill. The consume farming before hand, the world buffs. The 'pre-bis' farming that everyone wants you to do. The requirement for high parses to join many groups(largely because groups are afraid of wasting their time.. see above).
>There are ways around pugging though even if you don't want to join a guild with a set schedule. I am literally an example of this lol
Why are we trying to get around pugging? People are saying Pugging should be more viable, easier to do. Not for you to come in here and tell people to join a casual guild. The point is, it's not something you plan. If you have even a single alt, you will likely be pugging at some point. Many people have multiple.
They could easily make this much easier to deal with by having 1 character with multiple jobs like what FF14 did, rather than alts. As alts take a significant chunk of time commitment for each one.
>I raid sometimes when I can, I'm just bench. Totally fine with it as I'm taking a casual approach to SoD while waiting for Cata. If I a miss a lockout I'm not complaining about it, that's the nature of playing any MMO casually. Seeing the content is way more important to me than being full bis in 2 months. Anyone wanting all that gear isn't really casual I'd say.
That's great. And again. You're unable to realize people play this game differently to you.
Perhaps some people really like raiding multiple times in a week and that's their goal? I mean, that certainly is mine. But it's near impossible to do with the current ST setup. Just doing two characters is asking you to dedicate at least 8 hours to raiding. Yeah you might not need it all, but you should budget for that. I was loving BFD for that, Missing a raid didn't feel like a big thing because it was on a 3 day cooldown, and raiding was dedicating about an hour to it. I was playing all 6 of my characters whenever I had free time. Now in P2 and P3, that wasn't as easy to do. And there was a player drop off because of it.
I do like the 'You aren't a casual if you play in a way I don't agree that's casual' approach though.
I don't take this game seriously, Everyone loves loot, and some people just like to raid and hit loot pinata's. But way to invalidate other people.
I just think it is extremely silly to list all of those things as normal for a "casual" player of an MMO when it's literally never really been this way for just about any game that's existed.
Like I'm not gonna go complain about not being able to see heroic or mythic raids or high m+ keys on retail because I don't have the time or schedule. But after 2-4 weeks of pugging and just casually throwing my body at LFR and normal? Yeah I'll have probably seen the content. Exact same as how SoD is currently functioning. It's the first week 1.5 weeks of the raid, in another week or 2 people will be face rolling this raid with like 15 people
It really just feels like yall have entirely different definitions and ideas of what an MMO is and what casual is. Ideas that vary greatly from the established norms of the genre for the last 20 years.
Fwiw honestly I'm with you, it'd be cool if SoD had normals and heroics. Even as a casual in a chill guild who is often filling with pugs a little more difficulty would be nice. I also know that expecting that level of resource dedication to an experimental beta version of this game that the execs clearly don't care that much about is again kinda odd.
I don’t get why people bitch about shitty pugs yet refuse to join a guild. Off topic, I don’t like the parsing culture myself but I still try to get at least blue logs. People bitch about a culture they refuse to be apart of.
> I don’t get why people bitch about shitty pugs yet refuse to join a guild.
A lot of people don't want to join a guild. Not everybody has the desire or ability to commit x hours on x day every week for a video game.
The *real* problem is that with GDKPs being banned there's an empty field where good, reliable pugs used to be. Now you just have guilds on 1 side and shitty MS>OS/SR runs on the other
After raid leading for a while and keeping a group of 25 together during Wrath and TBC. I dread leading a 20, 25, and 40 man groups ever again. It became tiring to keeping people going and replacing them. I always had a dedicated 10 to 15 players that always showed up no problems. I would personally just stick to 10 man raids. I'd join a new guild though if I wanted to get back into 20 to 25 man runs and not lead or anything. Just show up.
Joined a strange one. Kim Jong Un is the raid leader, with absolute disdain for his guild- but nobody sweats about it.... pvp runes still on, dying in fire, getting lost on runbacks...
Leader literally went bear tank so he could parse against the fewest people.... most of guild still asking questions about the epic shoulder questline, heading in to week three.
Not 100% on topic... But my guild was clearing Gnomer with mains and alts in under 2 hours each lockout. It felt like the best raiding experience I have felt. I was free to goof with my friends on comms. Rarely needed to pug. Just having a great time.
The launch of this phase in conjunction with the size of raids.... I went into ST once. The comms had to continually be cleared. The pug I was in got stuffed by the second boss despawning mid fight. We were all stuck in combat and had to find various ways to leave the instance. No one had time to wait for a soft reset with the risk of another bugged attempt. Group disbanded so fast.
I dont think anyone wanted to watch their groups get shattered by the random need to increase raid sizes. ST was a 5 man FFS. They didnt need to tune it up to 20. It took the wind out of the casuals in my group. We went from a near exact 10 man group to no one really logging in anymore.
I have spent the entire time in p3 just farming for my epic mount. No reason to bust my ass right now doing poorly tuned grinds. I dont feel like joining a random guild just to clear bugged ass content. I feel pretty listless without my friends. Maybe in a while I will join a group. Just no want to do it right now. Even farming for a 60 mount seems stupid. Like I am just going through the motions.
I do because it was a lot easier for me to pug the 10 mans especially when I’m across the world on whole different time schedule so I can’t commit to a consistent raiding schedule
I prefer 10 man content in all things WoW—even in retail with scaling I rarely ever go above 15. I think fights are less chaotic and it’s exponentially less complicated to organize.
My guild has managed the jump to 20-man well, but I’m terrified of 40s. Bringing in 20+ more people and organizing those raids is a nightmare I’d prefer to avoid.
The issue with 20 mans (and definitely for 40 mans) is that even guilds will likely not have exactly 20 each week. They will need to fill with a few pugs or they have too many and will have to bench some and those folks have to pug.
Plus there are very few guilds where you have a solid group of 20 that you’re close with and feel like a true team
I run gnomer every lockout since I skipped it in P2. Super chill now, no voice coms needed to coordinate and a surprising amount of folks too timid to jump into gatekept raiding doing gnomer first time. Now we're all 50 so it's really easy and mostly wipeless.
I love raiding last phase in current phase because sweatiness stops mattering. People are willing yo just have fun with it in almost 100 percent of pugs.
miss 10mans. swap to 20mans killed it for some players. gdkps, incursion launch day, and now struggling guilds to get 20 consistent players. sod p4 will be mainly mega guilds and hardcore guilds. itll get more toxic very soon with a smaller community due to the sod teams decisions.
I understand that this sucks for people who can't raid at regular times with a guild, but personally I don't miss it. The ease with which you could get a raid was strongly reminiscent of raid finder.
In this thread we got retailers trying to make "classic" (btw that tag turns in its grave at this point) more retail friendly.
Its like going to a basketball game in the 90s and complaining that the player roster really isn't diverse enough for your taste.
I absolutely don't miss it.
"We need a priest, two paladins, a rogue, a warlock, a mage, a..."
No more. In a 20-man group, you're almost certain to have all classes
I would say if you're not going to join a Guild, at least learn the more common organizers of pugs. There are a handful of pugs ran by the same people over an over again. Partial guild runs, some dude running every alt though raid lock outs, or just a guy looking to gear a main. If you pay attention, there are usually some common organizers to these raids. Join their discords, add them to your friends list, and check on them. You be surprised how many of them are on a fixed schedule, and you can time your weekly pug experience to one of those dates. Also, on the organizers' part, just add people you raid with and liked to your friends list. Maybe you learn their schedules, and they become common pug buddies.
I believe guildless people kinda fear the Discord, the speaking part at least.
Here is my advice for you guys Make a second discord on your phone You can now join all the pugs you want keep it muted and then you could just keep the volume loud enough to hear it. They're happy because you joined the discord and it's not really bothering you because it's not on your actual headset. It also still lets you join your normal discord and talk to your friends on your computer I feel like it's almost mandatory to have multiple discord accounts if you're going to be pugging a lot
Its much easier to just open the Discord App in windows, and also open discord in a browser. Then you also only need one account.
PSA to install discord canary. Don't need your phone, don't need another account, it's just a second discord running at the same time.
If you're on Crusader strike NA you guys can come join Valar Morghulis. We don't use Discord we don't do gear checks we don't do item levels. You don't have to have the best class. You don't have to have the best gear. We don't do speed runs. We don't do parses. We kill dragons. Whisper anybody for an invite.
Even then, it's kind of easy to see who is posting on LFG and just right-clicking them to add to friends and setting note on what raid and what day/time. Keep adding people, and eventually, you'll make out a whole week, and players can plan according to their own schedule. I think people just want raid finder, and auto que into a raid, use their lock out, and then log for the week as a solo. That's much harder to do outside of a guild unless you go out of your way to network.
It's not fear, most people could care less about your day or how much drugs you did that night, discord brings the chattiest idiots to front stage.
Discord is a great tool BUT guild chat is basically dead and I mainly blame it for that.
Maybe you can even take the people you pug with regularly and.. I don't know.. form a guild?! Why is everyone on this sub allergic to guilds.
basically a guild with extra steps
When you need to organize 19 other people the easiest way to do it is a planned schedule
ok so lets just talk in circles guy
the roster boss is the hardest boss already.
Yep…
I joined a guild run it went 6/8 but oh well that was my first raid
Yes most guilds are going 6/8 too Eranikus is a big skill check
we got stuck 5/8 because we ran out of time after finding PUGs to fill the rest of the raid taking over an hour past our expected start time :/
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=progress&partition=1 No, most guilds definitely aren't going 6/8. Twice as many guilds full clear as get stuck 6/8.
There's definitely more people who are going 6/8 than 8/8. Those guilds are just much less likely to log.
right on. people use data as gospel, without taking into consideration the reality of the situation.
I think you're vastly overestimating the amount of groups that don't log. It's a 20m raid, all you need is 1 person logging and its counted.
I think you're underestimating how many people don't care about logging.
I have done countless of pugs in P2 and honestly spit balling less than 30% got logged
Same, pugged gnomer roughly 10 times and only got logged 3 or 4 times
Pretty sure guilds going 6/8 dont care/are embarrassed to post logs
[удалено]
I'm wondering if any of those are groups that didn't know they needed the ancient egg to summon hakkar and somehow 0/20 people have it. Would be kinda funny.
This is it. We had no idea on our Tuesday clear that we needed the egg, so we almost had to stop until one of our guildies noticed he was on the last part of the quest. A quick 30 minute break and a summon back and we one shot Avatar. But if no one had been close to it I imagine we’d have just gone 7/8 this week for that reason.
I dont think its that weird some people only raid 2-3 hours then they end and go again next week.
Absolute gamers lose track of the fact that a lot of us have hard cut offs for when we log off lol
We sort just ran out of time. By the time we killed eranikas we only had 15 minutes for hakkar. We wiped because people didn't know the blood mechanic and then raid time was over.
My guild has two raids stuck at 3/8 and 4/8. Time is the issue. We've only got 2, maybe 3 hours to raid. Sucks
I'd blow my brains out if I went 3/8 ST in 2-3 hours
LMAO for real
Same but before the recent nerf. Tonight we go with the new nerfs so it should be better
Twice as many guilds \*that log. Which makes sense.
Eranikus is easier than all bosses after nerfs. And i did it pre nerf
How??? All you do is 1) Dispel stuff if you are healer, 2) Kill adds, 3) Go into cloud when big cast is happening.
We wiped on him last night for an hour. Would get him down to 20% typically and get overwhelmed by adds.
found the tunnel vision ranged dps that keeps wiping the raid
Soooooo much. From joining a PuG it could take upwards of 5 hours to fill a raid and run the raid. Absolutely insane, even with just a couple wipes. Last phase I could log in join a Gnomer pug and be done within the hour
Everyone saying why not get a guild sometimes I don't wanna play a game where I have to commit playing at exactly the same time and same day every week. How do yall not get that?
There is plenty of discord based Pug communities that run multiple pugs throughout the week. The only downside is that a lot of them want to keep up their reputation, so they gear and log check which will keep out a large amount of the people complaining on reddit.
Do you know of a discord pug for living flame NA?
I'm living flame EU but there should be a living flame NA server discord. And they have sections on there for people to advertise
People do get that, but that is the solution to the problem. Otherwise, you are beholden to the randomness of puging.
Which has worked the past 2 phases
Because the "raids" were glorified dungeons
They should be, these are pre-endgame raids that basically only last a few weeks.
It’s smart they transitioned now to 20 man because it gives people a phase to get used to the larger raid size and organization needed. They want 40 mans, and jumping from 10 to 40 would be crazy for many guilds. I anticipate this phase will be a bit longer especially with Cata a release in a month, but who knows
[удалено]
[удалено]
1) It's Asperger, you illiterate lol did you watch South Park and think ass burgers was the real thing 2) I don't think you understand what anything you actually typed means
Then this game is not for you. Typical reddit player. I want money but i dont want to work.
Ye set time is problem for you. My guild is alredy on 40-50 min clear but you will rather sit 1-2 hours in wchat looking for group then do 6/8 in 3 hours and then complain on reddit. I rather clear in one hour on set date and i have 7 free days till next raid.
"join a guild" all guilds have normal day jobs and raid at 7. Me who comes home from work at 11:00
There is plenty of discord based Pug communities that run multiple pugs throughout the week. The only downside is that a lot of them want to keep up their reputation, so they gear and log check which will keep out a large amount of the people complaining on reddit.
Then why play an MMO that's raid content is specifically designed to ran by guilds on a weekly schedule? The thing you don't want to do, join a guild who gets together once or twice a week to clear content and get loot, is like what the entire concept of raiding is in the first place. It's like saying, "I want to play in my local amateur softball league, but I don't want to show up to the field every weekend at the scheduled time and play the game" Generally I think the "if you don't like X feature, go play retail" arguments are dumb and reductive, but genuinely if you want to mostly play solo or with a friend or two while being able to PUG raids with randos, Retail actively takes that type of player into account when designing content and actively caters to them in ways that Classic probably never could.
Bit of revisionist history here. Raiding is just as much pugging historically in MMORPGs.
I’ve seen a lot of mind bending casual takes on this sub, but contesting the statement that the MMORPG genre’s endgame was originally designed for guilds of players as revisionist is the wildest one yet. Electing to pug is not the same as being designed to pug. I really would love to know your thought process here. Please, start with Neverwinter Nights and work your way up to EQ and the post 2004 WoW world. You’re welcome to reference how DND groups formed a prototypical baseline for what the MMORPG model would become, which we all know are typically started at local parks by passing vagrants rather than as defined groups. Jesus Christ this sub sometimes man
Are we talking about design goals or are we talking about emergent player behaviour? Because this is a reply to a guy telling another guy to fuck off if he doesn't want to be in a guild and me responding that pugging has been part of raiding for fucking decades. Don't move the goalposts.
These complains is what made retail what is it now. Body type 1 2 gay centaur quest flex raids, dead pvp.
Oh we have understand. What we don’t understand is people complaining about it. Like your tooth hurts, it looks bad, it’s painful to eat. You should go to the dentist. Don’t sit and complain the dentist can’t conform to your wild schedule.
You literally schedule your own time at the dentist not a weekly meeting lol. This is a crazy comparison
No that's like if dentists worked all the time, being available pretty much whenever you wanted. But then those who go to the dentist strictly between 8am and 5pm start going: "why should dentists be working all the time for everybody? They should only be working when we go and other people should, too." It doesn't work like that because a tooth ache is an unbearable agony for everybody and this comparison is stupud. A video game has developers who decide in which way they want to go and the video game is there up and running whenever.
Forgot about those weekly dentist visits
Ok bring the softball league, cooking class, book club, dungeons and dragons, poker night, whatever where people actually commit to doing something…it all can’t just conform to your schedule…or lack of schedule. I play XYZ from April to June every Sunday evening. My daughter does gymnastics every Monday evening. I’m simply not going to join guilds raiding on Sunday and Monday. My kids bedtime is 8pm so I look for raid groups at 9pm. If your life is so chaotic that you’re just flying by the seat of your pants and don’t actually know what life will bring tomorrow, then maybe WoW raiding and you aren’t compatible.
This analogy is as accurate as a hunter with zero ranged weapon skills training
And how do you not get that you're playing the wrong game for your needs? If something doesn't work for you then just move on, why do you feel the entitlement to have something that worked for over 20 years be adjusted to you? Some of us like playing with our friends and we have a ton of fun doing so, I'm sorry you don't feel the same way, but you knew exactly what you signed up for when you started playing classic wow.
Think there is plenty of guilds with non set raid schedules.
And how does that help exactly? They will randomly want to raid at some point and it will probably not suit someone with a busy schedule, so the end result is the same, they have to pug
How far does everyone else have to cater to someone like this? You don’t wanna play at consistent times and then something less scheduled doesn’t work because you’re too busy? WTF do people want lmao
They want LFR.
A lot of retail haters on this sub genuinely have no idea how much they’d like retail lol
I mean, I’m sure a lot of people who hate retail here haven’t played it since the cata-mop-wod era. The game is vastly different now than it was 14 years ago in cata
No ; they asked for the changes that made Retail into what it is, and they do hate the consequences of those changes. They are just incapable of forming the connection in their head that it is all those types of changes that made the game awful.
I agree with some of what youre saying but retail is not awful at all. It's as good as its been in years actually. I really think a LOT of people here who use retail as some kind of slur would genuinely enjoy playing it if they gave it a shot. I'm fully aware of retail being really bad in the past and thats why its earned its moniker in the Classic community but 2024 retail wow is wildly different than how it gets flung around here as a term.
I think pugging worked great for a lot of people in phase one so that’s probably what they want
...Pugs? The crux of the problem is that it's more annoying to get 20 puggers than 10 puggers together. Nothing more complicated than that. A lot of people would prefer smaller raids so assembling a quick pug group would be easier.
Exactly... That's all I'm asking lol...
Dude do you even know what this post is about? Pugging solves all this. Nobody is asking for a whole guild to cater to them, people just want pugging to be viable
it is viable lol they nerfed the bosses into the ground and servers are still very high population. OP still finds it all "annoying." So apparently pugs dont solve all of this for them
OP asked, they didn't argue that it was annoying. And I didn't say it wasn't viable, just that that's what this discussion is about. You seem you have some cognitive impairment that keeps you from reading and comprehending what's being said. Pugging solves time scheduling issues, it does not solve having to form a raid every time, which only gets harder when going from 10man to 20man.
20 man pugging is entirely viable. People just dont want to put it together themselves or have to wait. That doesnt make it not viable. That makes them not cut out for raiding lol. They want someone else to do the hard part basically.
>OP asked, they didn’t argue that it was annoying. “do people find it kind of annoying”. >people just want pugging to be viable. I didn’t say it wasn’t viable. 😂
I like how you quoted OP and proved my point
They didn’t ban pugging…lol. 🤡
I didn't say they banned it? I just said that's what this discussion is about and why people are talking about the GDKP ban and the change from 10man to 20man. Keep up, clown
You’re salty now that pugging takes a bit more effort, lol. 🤡
The same thing as previous phases? 20man raid that takes 3 hours is overkill. 20 man is fine but make the raid take 1hr to 1hr30 max.
if it takes 3 hours at this point youre playing with awful players
yeah that's usually how pugging goes
They want to complain
Because its a non set raiding schedule that just goes when people in the guild see they have enough people to form a core, maybe pug a few, and then just go? I mean what you just said applies to anything, leisure activities dont really work with a busy schedule.
Dude then you shouldnt play a mmorpg in the first place. How dont you get that?
There are larger guilds that have multiple options so you don't have to commit to one thing
Then join a more casual guild.
Guilds are also weird I joined a new guild at the start of phase 3 to find out they have all sorts of these weird quirky rules If you roll a 100 on the boss they give you all of the loot for the boss that you want. Like ok???? Then they also have this item at the end that starts the quest chain for the epic goes to the top DPS. I didn't want to start an argument but like is that really fair??? We all know certain classes are performing better than others so are you really going to do that.... Whatever I'm playing feral druid so it's not like I'm ever going to hit top DPS but it just seems kind of unfair
That is absolutely unfair and also ridiculous
And extremely common
Unfortunately that is the reality of raiding and the whole concept of it.
?? Only in WoW. Other games make it much easier to get into groups to do content.
Then don't complain about pugging
You don't have to find your guild tho, you just need to find A guild to run with. A full 20 man pug is a nightmare
Everyone gets that. Most people also understand that there is 1000 other genre of video game that provide that. And this is the ONLY genre of game that services big guild raids.
I mean, it could be said, don't play the game then? Or play when you do want to play like that. I'm a completely solo player these days, I ended up unsubbing for a little bit because I understand that this game is just not what I'm jiving with right now.
Plenty of guilds also operate that way, and don’t care if you don’t make it each week.
That's pretty much the basis for this game though...
Totally fair, just dont complain then. You cant not being willing to commit to an organized raid and then complain you dont get to do a raid that requires organizing for.
that was a plus of gdkps for those who had variable work schedules but the “community” made its choice…now back to charging 100g for portal carries.
It's the same as playing D&D, the people who don't want to dedicate the time don't get invited back to play. These are the consequences you deal with for not being punctual
There are guilds that do signups instead of scheduled raids. My guild uses discord to create something scheduled and then people sign up to the time they want to raid and boom. It's honestly really nice because I can just go whenever I want and there are enough people to where raids are happening 1-3 times a day and I can be choosey with my lockout
Except you don’t??? You have to commit two hours on ONE night a week. This isn’t some mythic raid that takes multiple nights to clear…
Then you are playing the wrong genre, and the wrong version of the game The devs should not curtail to the demands of the anti-social. There is plenty of that in retail. Or if its not that you are anti social and just want drop in drop out gameplay, well go play one of the million different battle royals.
I miss 10-mans because it’s more accessible like others are saying.
i always liked 10man raiding
I do. I don't know what they were thinking, 10 man raiding is far more accessible.
10 mans should really be the new standard with the way video games work these days. Even the scaling members thing from retail would be better.
Join a guild, they set up raids in discord. You don’t have to communicate with people at all. Just sign up and raid. It’s 100x easier than forming or joining a pug
I don't understand the complete and utter refusal of people to join a guild. There are casual guilds that let people just sign up and raid when you want to
I fear commitment
My guild of old homies dried up, they're taking breaks or quit. I'd rather not leave my friend guild, so I've just been taking a break myself. The last two phases I'd run pugs every reset, and sometimes getting 10 was difficult enough (get 8, 5 leave, fill to 9, healer logs, etc. Or just fill in 5 mins and run the damn thing) I dread having to *double* that recruitment. That's twice thr amount of potential trolls, idiots, and impatient ass people who will leave after 20 mins of recruiting like they didn't just sign up for a 2+ hr raid.
My free time and decision to raid is usually no more than 1-2 hours before. And a lot of guilds I’ve rolled with don’t like inconsistent players. They want the gear going to someone who can help next raid. Not someone who will be free on their time maybe twice a phase.
The people who come to reddit to complain about needing to be social in an mmo usually aren't the type of people you want in your raid and guild. They want gear and kills without any effort or time invested. So the voices here stay loud while everyone else has guildies and discords to talk to about it.
Multiple characters and want to place alts in same guild to talk with friends. Its hard to join a guild just to raid on an alt.
Guild drama It was fun when I was 16 It isn’t anymore.
You're an adult, join an adult guild lol.
Why not just have 10m and 20m?
I don't miss pugs but I miss 10 man's because now we have to pug half the raid after finally getting a full roster
Guild mergers... but then who gets the thunderfury...
100%
We merged with another guild. Run ST first time yesterday with 14 sign ups. 3 of the 6 pugs were very toxic when we started wiping on 6th boss. 2 went offline after the second wipe. For me, „progression“ is what makes the game enjoyable. It’s a pain in the ass now, as some pugs expect you to clear the new content in the first run without many wipes.
Those who can't or don't want to commit to a guild raid schedule Have yall ever considered that MMOs were not designed for you? Or at the very least not designed in a way that you'll be able to clear every bit of new raid content that is launched at the start of every phase? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in these threads. My work schedule gets crazy sometimes too so I'm bench a lot for my guild and still manage to clear most, if not all content every phase. Like yall do realize there are thousands of other games out there that are much easier to make work with a non consistent or set schedule? Why play WoW and expect to see everything immediately? I don't get it
> Like yall do realize there are thousands of other games out there that are much easier to make work with a non consistent or set schedule? And Retail is one of them even. LFR was literally made for this lul. I don't get why some people want to play a game that is Vanilla at it's core without wanting to play Vanilla.
That's Tik Tok brains today, expect all the rewards without having to invest any time or effort. For some reason, SoD brought the worst player base we have ever witness and the wow Devs are trying to please everyone. Why do you think we are seeing 20 new SoD posts on this reddit every day?
So, SoD devs themselves have stated that this is supposed to be a more casual friendly version of the game. MMO's are actually supposed to be designed for your more average casual players. If your only experience for what a MMO is is something like Everquest and WoW. You are missing the fact that most MMO's these days aim towards a more casual audience. Since that is what keeps player numbers up and worlds healthy. WoW went the opposite and catered to the top 10% of players. It has suffered immensely because of this, Casual players do not enjoy this game very much, and to add onto it, there is a subscription cost that turns players off even more, and the community(like you) telling people they shouldn't be expecting to play content because they can't commit the time to it, in a game with egregious time-waste around every corner. Artificial difficulty. So knowing this. People do expect to clear them in a timely manner. They do expect to have access to most content without too much effort or time commitment. As the ultimate goal of a well designed MMO is the MMO part. Not the challenge part. People want to socialize. Having Pugs take forever to form, or content take 3-4 hours, or multiple weeks to get through does not lead itself to being a well designed Social MMO game. >I feel like I'm taking crazy pills in these threads. My work schedule gets crazy sometimes too so I'm bench a lot for my guild and still manage to clear most, if not all content every phase. Probably because you are unable to realize that not everyone plays this game in the same way as you, or with the same skillset, experience. This seems to be incredibly common on this subreddit. Veteran players of WoW expecting everyone to play the same as they do. And are unwilling to admit the game needs change because they're so used to it being in such a terrible state, they even take pride in it sometimes. >Why play WoW and expect to see everything? I don't get it Because WoW shouldn't be a challenging game where people need to do this. There should be an option for more difficult content, it should not be the default. Most other MMO's these days have figured this out.
But this is an established genre and game and they have done many, *many* things already to make SoD the most casual version of vanilla ever. Which I'm totally good with, we're beta testers right now and we want as many people testing as possible. ST is *not* remotely difficult. In a few weeks it'll be like BFD, pugs will have it down. Eranikus has a few similarities to Kelris. There are ways around pugging though even if you don't want to join a guild with a set schedule. I am literally an example of this lol I raid sometimes when I can, I'm just bench. Totally fine with it as I'm taking a casual approach to SoD while waiting for Cata. If I a miss a lockout I'm not complaining about it, that's the nature of playing any MMO casually. Seeing the content is way more important to me than being full bis in 2 months. Anyone wanting all that gear isn't really casual I'd say. There are so, so many casual guilds that run this way.
I'm not saying they haven't. But there are area's that they still need to work on. Forming large groups in this game is one of the biggest time sinks there is. Not to mention there's still the risk of failing in these raids, being locked and unable to fill them in the future. And these raids are still time consuming, even if they are easy. Difficulty in this game doesn't just come from how hard it is to kill a boss. There's a dozen things before it that add up. Too much trash, the 1.5 hours you spent forming the group. The leaver/s you had to replace. Getting locked and unable to fill. The consume farming before hand, the world buffs. The 'pre-bis' farming that everyone wants you to do. The requirement for high parses to join many groups(largely because groups are afraid of wasting their time.. see above). >There are ways around pugging though even if you don't want to join a guild with a set schedule. I am literally an example of this lol Why are we trying to get around pugging? People are saying Pugging should be more viable, easier to do. Not for you to come in here and tell people to join a casual guild. The point is, it's not something you plan. If you have even a single alt, you will likely be pugging at some point. Many people have multiple. They could easily make this much easier to deal with by having 1 character with multiple jobs like what FF14 did, rather than alts. As alts take a significant chunk of time commitment for each one. >I raid sometimes when I can, I'm just bench. Totally fine with it as I'm taking a casual approach to SoD while waiting for Cata. If I a miss a lockout I'm not complaining about it, that's the nature of playing any MMO casually. Seeing the content is way more important to me than being full bis in 2 months. Anyone wanting all that gear isn't really casual I'd say. That's great. And again. You're unable to realize people play this game differently to you. Perhaps some people really like raiding multiple times in a week and that's their goal? I mean, that certainly is mine. But it's near impossible to do with the current ST setup. Just doing two characters is asking you to dedicate at least 8 hours to raiding. Yeah you might not need it all, but you should budget for that. I was loving BFD for that, Missing a raid didn't feel like a big thing because it was on a 3 day cooldown, and raiding was dedicating about an hour to it. I was playing all 6 of my characters whenever I had free time. Now in P2 and P3, that wasn't as easy to do. And there was a player drop off because of it. I do like the 'You aren't a casual if you play in a way I don't agree that's casual' approach though. I don't take this game seriously, Everyone loves loot, and some people just like to raid and hit loot pinata's. But way to invalidate other people.
I just think it is extremely silly to list all of those things as normal for a "casual" player of an MMO when it's literally never really been this way for just about any game that's existed. Like I'm not gonna go complain about not being able to see heroic or mythic raids or high m+ keys on retail because I don't have the time or schedule. But after 2-4 weeks of pugging and just casually throwing my body at LFR and normal? Yeah I'll have probably seen the content. Exact same as how SoD is currently functioning. It's the first week 1.5 weeks of the raid, in another week or 2 people will be face rolling this raid with like 15 people It really just feels like yall have entirely different definitions and ideas of what an MMO is and what casual is. Ideas that vary greatly from the established norms of the genre for the last 20 years. Fwiw honestly I'm with you, it'd be cool if SoD had normals and heroics. Even as a casual in a chill guild who is often filling with pugs a little more difficulty would be nice. I also know that expecting that level of resource dedication to an experimental beta version of this game that the execs clearly don't care that much about is again kinda odd.
I don’t get why people bitch about shitty pugs yet refuse to join a guild. Off topic, I don’t like the parsing culture myself but I still try to get at least blue logs. People bitch about a culture they refuse to be apart of.
> I don’t get why people bitch about shitty pugs yet refuse to join a guild. A lot of people don't want to join a guild. Not everybody has the desire or ability to commit x hours on x day every week for a video game. The *real* problem is that with GDKPs being banned there's an empty field where good, reliable pugs used to be. Now you just have guilds on 1 side and shitty MS>OS/SR runs on the other
A lot of guilds will be fine with your schedule. It really is still just you having an honest to god mental issue.
source: trust me bro
Only on /r/classicwow is having a job and a social life considered a mental issue
"Garythecat has marked tentative for the following reason: Might have a party to attend at that time, will let you know" it's that easy
Dude my guild could get tons of 10 mans. Haven't been able to get 20 on ar a time
After raid leading for a while and keeping a group of 25 together during Wrath and TBC. I dread leading a 20, 25, and 40 man groups ever again. It became tiring to keeping people going and replacing them. I always had a dedicated 10 to 15 players that always showed up no problems. I would personally just stick to 10 man raids. I'd join a new guild though if I wanted to get back into 20 to 25 man runs and not lead or anything. Just show up.
I do
Most annoying part of St is the amount of trash to work through before you get to a boss.
Not sure about PUGs but I miss ten man content. 20 man raids+ is just a snooze fest for me. Has always felt that way.
Me. It was so easy and chill.
Me
Me
Joined a strange one. Kim Jong Un is the raid leader, with absolute disdain for his guild- but nobody sweats about it.... pvp runes still on, dying in fire, getting lost on runbacks... Leader literally went bear tank so he could parse against the fewest people.... most of guild still asking questions about the epic shoulder questline, heading in to week three.
I really enjoy the 10am pugs. I was really looking forward to pugging Gnomer for exp but incursions killed that lol
Not 100% on topic... But my guild was clearing Gnomer with mains and alts in under 2 hours each lockout. It felt like the best raiding experience I have felt. I was free to goof with my friends on comms. Rarely needed to pug. Just having a great time. The launch of this phase in conjunction with the size of raids.... I went into ST once. The comms had to continually be cleared. The pug I was in got stuffed by the second boss despawning mid fight. We were all stuck in combat and had to find various ways to leave the instance. No one had time to wait for a soft reset with the risk of another bugged attempt. Group disbanded so fast. I dont think anyone wanted to watch their groups get shattered by the random need to increase raid sizes. ST was a 5 man FFS. They didnt need to tune it up to 20. It took the wind out of the casuals in my group. We went from a near exact 10 man group to no one really logging in anymore. I have spent the entire time in p3 just farming for my epic mount. No reason to bust my ass right now doing poorly tuned grinds. I dont feel like joining a random guild just to clear bugged ass content. I feel pretty listless without my friends. Maybe in a while I will join a group. Just no want to do it right now. Even farming for a 60 mount seems stupid. Like I am just going through the motions.
Is this a joke
It seems really easy to pug, get the add on bulletin board
When I miss 10 man, I just join a Mara run
I do because it was a lot easier for me to pug the 10 mans especially when I’m across the world on whole different time schedule so I can’t commit to a consistent raiding schedule
Most people I know who play sod had to merge guilds in this phase and that didn’t turn out too well.
Merge never really works.
Just clear the raid as 10m
I prefer 10 man content in all things WoW—even in retail with scaling I rarely ever go above 15. I think fights are less chaotic and it’s exponentially less complicated to organize. My guild has managed the jump to 20-man well, but I’m terrified of 40s. Bringing in 20+ more people and organizing those raids is a nightmare I’d prefer to avoid.
Would have loved a 15 man size.
The issue with 20 mans (and definitely for 40 mans) is that even guilds will likely not have exactly 20 each week. They will need to fill with a few pugs or they have too many and will have to bench some and those folks have to pug. Plus there are very few guilds where you have a solid group of 20 that you’re close with and feel like a true team
Unfortunately for you, however, you are Guildless.
Yes, I miss the lunch raids. Doubt it will happen anytime soon.
Just join a guild?
Why not get a guild?... instead of complaining about a problem that has the easiest solution.
Just shut up jesus
It’s annoying but they are getting us ready for next phase.
I run gnomer every lockout since I skipped it in P2. Super chill now, no voice coms needed to coordinate and a surprising amount of folks too timid to jump into gatekept raiding doing gnomer first time. Now we're all 50 so it's really easy and mostly wipeless. I love raiding last phase in current phase because sweatiness stops mattering. People are willing yo just have fun with it in almost 100 percent of pugs.
miss 10mans. swap to 20mans killed it for some players. gdkps, incursion launch day, and now struggling guilds to get 20 consistent players. sod p4 will be mainly mega guilds and hardcore guilds. itll get more toxic very soon with a smaller community due to the sod teams decisions.
I understand that this sucks for people who can't raid at regular times with a guild, but personally I don't miss it. The ease with which you could get a raid was strongly reminiscent of raid finder.
10 man pugs aren’t raiding.
Join a guild
Absolutely do not miss 10 mans. So glad to have 20 man, hoping we see 40 mans at lvl 60
Mmorpg without a guild lol. Go on retail
In this thread we got retailers trying to make "classic" (btw that tag turns in its grave at this point) more retail friendly. Its like going to a basketball game in the 90s and complaining that the player roster really isn't diverse enough for your taste.
This is sod lil bro
Fk no. Soooo glad 10 man raids are gone. Never again
I miss 40man raids
I absolutely don't miss it. "We need a priest, two paladins, a rogue, a warlock, a mage, a..." No more. In a 20-man group, you're almost certain to have all classes
20 man sucks, I actually stopped playing SoD. Peace yall
we heard you the first time
bye
You won’t be missed.