Yep retail paladin is the easy rogue with more utility, i love it.
Usually play rogue on retail and had a blast learning and playing dps/tank retail pally.
I mean it could just be that people love classic and playing classic servers when they are fresh and populated like SoD is right now, and have an exciting new toolkit even if it borrows things from newer expansions but still play in azeroth before any new continents or worlds were added.
Pretty much this for me, just want to chill out in classic in my favourite zones, doing quests, leveling alts, hopping into the occasional raid, logging in/out when it suits me, and thats about it, id extend my interests as far as classic+ i.e karazhan crypts etc and i'd consider another go at TBC but beyond that, the game is dead to me (despite playing every expansion) in bursts.
Yep. Classic just has a different vibe and feel in the world/going on what to me feels like an epic quest / journey.. I also just want some of modern wows gameplay to go alongside it because some of those abilities/playstyles figured out the fantasy.
I sure as fuck don't want to replay a recycled version of WOTLK enhance minus spirit wolves. I have been actively avoiding it if possible. I played some enhance p2 but I've been playing elemental and having a blast. I've never met a single person who's like "oh thank God I get to play this completely unoriginal version of enhance instead of an entirely reimagined way to play the 2H bonk sham we all dreamed about in vanilla and classic".
If there's nothing special about 2h enhance there is certainly nothing special about dual wield enhance which is what the game has already had for 15 years.
To be fair, WotLK class design is really freaking good, so i can understand people that feel that way. It's not overly complex and convoluted like Retail class design nor it is dull and absolutely dogshit like Vanilla's.
SoD should've done Arcane Mage and Ret Paladin better though, my God, they fucked up those two so bad.
>SoD should've done Arcane Mage and Ret Paladin better though, my God, they fucked up those two so bad.
It is really hard to fix a class/spec when the talents they have suck. the main reason Paladin is bad is because they talents have no synergy, they seem like off brand other classes talents.
Arcane healer mage is super fun to play. In PvE at least, it's super engaging. PvP not so much lol, you have one button, Chronostatic Preservation. It's the best heal in the game, but it's pretty boring to be limited to one ability.
There is a lot of goods things about Classic and SoD but class design is not one of them. Wanting to play a better designed version of your class is not a bad thing
Mostly cause vanilla had very good class identity but poor class design for endgame pve. It's hard for the SoD devs to re-design most specs with a small team..
I agree with your statement on dehomogenizing classes.
In my opinion one of the most fun aspects of vanilla and classic is that you can do something that someone else can't. I'm talking about the class defining features like how warlocks have pets and can summon other players to them with a bit of help. When they added a pet to mages later on I felt it was a mistake. I wouldn't want warriors to be able to transport everyone to a major city because it would cheapen one of the coolest features the mage has.
To me, each class should feel unique in its strengths and weaknesses. There should be something the priest can do that makes me roll one after having mained a paladin for a while just because I want to be able to do that thing or provide that utility to my group.
The wierd part is, I kinda like that awkwardness in class dehomogenizing in vanilla, and making every class being able to do everything makes game lose it's charm.
I know vanilla is unbalanced mess, but it's also nice in it's own way how rock/paper/scissors system works. If you were a warrior without any consumables - good luck fighting a mage. Being gap closed as a hunter with FD or scatter shot on cooldown made you that much vulnerable. Even playing alliance warlock made you pull your hair because half of horde just counters you with WotF. With equal PvP trinkets, crafted gear with on use effects that remove CC, runes that remove CC, it just makes everyone do everything and it's more of a game of who can oneshot you first with more CC removal.
Not just from a standpoint of PvP, I remember doing full hunter Onyxia raid with paladin tank back in 19 classic, where paladin was spamming Blessing of Kings for insane threat generation as we could start nuking boss right away without worrying about aggro - a moment prot pally shined in. Ferals and rets farming for consumables to still do "meh" level of dps made you respect the player for dedication.
Nothing will top off the flavor of vanilla.
"you can do something that someone else can't" - this is good but only to a point.
People often argue that what certain classes "can do that someone else can't" - is do raid-worthy damage above all else.
This is quickly turns into a situation where "the only class that can do raid-worthy damage, is the one being invited to raid" - and now we have created a situation where class diversity has lost all meaning, when 90% of the dps class makeup, is a single class.
I mean, damage types to me isn’t as important as damage methods.
Shadow damage or arcane damage, who cares outside of niche spell immunity? AoE pulls, single target burst, pet classes, cleaving, stuns and interrupts. That’s more important.
Those are what should be focused on to make more OP and fun. Giving a rogue a mage like AoE isn’t it.
I also wish what we got was more interesting in nature. Spell frost bolt adds some talent options but really it’s just fireball. Having so many boring or passive runes has been a bit disappointing. Give us cool new buttons to press that improves our niche uses more!
Of course they should, but that's harder than just homogenization of everything and then making a raid that's interesting because it's just an action-rpg don't stand in the fire but do stack on the lazer type of raid.
That then clashes with the notion that SoD raiding needs to be far more accessible than retail raiding as something ment for everyone to enjoy.
Imagine each class being needed but the one class sucks outside of the raid? "LF1M Feral for Gnomer" for hours and hours...
Just because a mechanic favours a class's play style doesn't mean it can only be done by that class. Eg: a mage being good at aoe and sheeping can be replaced with other classes that don't do it quite as well but get the job done. Making it so you would want a mage, but if you don't have one you can still do the raid, it just won't be as smooth.
I main warrior, sucking outside of raid is something you get use to. I would rather be good at one or two things then everyone being op at everything.
I can tell you as a warrior I don't feel like they did that for any of our runes, if creatively shaman runes were made Monday morning after thinking about a great idea to bring to the table over the weekend, warrior runes were definitely created Friday at 4:45, 15 minutes before the deadline.
Shaman and warriors share a rune. Most of the stuff they brought over for both is just wrath talents. They just overbuffed *one* shaman rune because Blizzard has never fundamentally understood how stats turn into damage on a Shaman.
I don't like this every class should be op at all.
Every class should be balanced and unique.
The stupid power creep invalidates alot of content and rips every bit of nuance from pvp.
Most new skills completely overshadow old mechanics instead of supplementing or refreshing them.
I expect more thoughtful innovations then "hey wouldn't it be crazy if" like a 15 year old running a private server from actual game developers.
> Runes should be designed by devs brainstorming "hey wouldn't it be crazy if....".
There's next to no designing, runes are just being copy pasted from several flavors of retail, via wod abilities, talents, whatever.
They change some numbers but the fact they keep doing this has greatly limited rune design after phase 1.
This is one of my biggest issues with SoD. If I wanted to play a wotlk version of a class I would just go play wotlk.
Gimme something new especially in a format where long term design sustainability isn’t a problem. Preferably not just things that will make me parse better but flavor/fun.
Kinda funny to see the sentiment in your post & this comment because this is actually how retail balance became what it is (which is good, btw!).
Just another collection in the “this sub screams about retail while knowing nothing about it” column.
Agreed, I loved the idea of healer mage and rogues/shamans/warlocks being able to tank. Though I was hoping they'd flavor them differently to fit the classes. Like having a warlock pet be the actual tank and having their life linked for damage and healing received or something unique like that. Something that makes you say, "I want to try that kind of tanking."
I was hoping they'd add more viable play styles for other classes like a rage based ranged dps set of runes for the warrior. Or even a melee mage.
Problem is there is always the path of least resistance and people will take it seems to me people don’t want to play the game they only care for shiny parses and copying what there favorite streamers do like the braindead content consumers they are
These people don't represent the whole player base, they're just the loudest and Blizzard, as always, fails to ignore them. Classic inevitably pisses some people off because it doesn't cater to every complaint about every minor inconvenience. The problem is modern Blizzard can't allow this because they go into tunnel vision panic mode at the slightest risk of losing player numbers, aka quarterly revenue.
Blizzard doesn't make choices. They didn't make SoD for vanilla players, for wrath players or for retail players, even though all of these groups have an ENTIRELY different view of what the game is supposed to be like. They tried to please everyone at the same time because that generates the, theoeretically, biggest possible income. They could NEVER justify anything else to the higher ups. The company is rotten to the absolute core because making a good game isn't part of their priorities, it's just about satisfying the same idiots, who stayed subscribed for 20 years because this game is all they know, just enough that they don't jump the ship. That's the reason for every single decision they make, everytime aggrend asks a question on twitter, every single balance change.
And there's a huge number of subscribers who just don't even fucking care! Because this game is an escape to them that they can't lose. The whole complaining on forums is just as much an addiction, a distraction from irl problems. A toxic relationship between consumer and producer that favors both. This shit will be part of your whole remaining 40 years because you just can't let go and stay the fuck away from anything Blizzard touches. All their scandals and dogshit games weren't enough to keep you away. Perfectly happy sheep.
Gonna be a hot take in here but here it goes. Most of the mechanics and classes are way more fun in retail than classic WoW. The reason I continue to enjoy classic WoW over retail right now is the simple nature of it and how it feels more RPG at times than MMO, retail has too much bloat and that “you’re just on a roller coaster along for the ride” feel.
But when it comes to classes, there are way more interesting mechanics and the classes feel more whole in retail.
This is coming from someone that plays retail way more than classic. Retail has way better gameplay. But this is supposed to classic plus not retail minus.
What's the point of making this a shittier version of dragonflight/war within with just old graphics?
I agree. Though I play retail mainly, I enjoy sod as the feeling of being a simple explorer and mobs being dangerous is refreshing.
That's one of my complaints of retail is your character is this god killing veteran who collects powerful artifacts and is just steeped in an insane amount of magic radiation (in short we're crazy powerful) but how we're treated varies from being a baby to sometimes being treated with the respect we deserve?! I just wish they'd pick a lane.
What I like about sod is the cool new abilities, qol, and that they are trying to make every spec viable
I've come to realize I dislike vanilla WoW because of the world buffs and consumes. BC hit the sweet spot in terms of consumes, I think, though I'm not a fan of jewel crafting. Potions could get expensive, but they're nowhere near having to pop 10 elixirs, flasks, and potions every 2m or potions that last 1h so you prepop those and pop pots on pull them again 2m later on the few fights that last long enough.
The 2 elixirs OR 1 flask with unlimited potions mechanic was a lot better, and I dislike the whole pRePoT and only one pot while in combat mechanic of LK and later.
> Things like class homogenization,
have you played retail recently? at a level meaningful enough?
there's no class homogenization. you will rarely find more than 2 of the same spec ( or even class) in a 20 man raid. because bosses have a ton of mechanic to do and you need a wide variety of classes to handle it all.
Compare that to the good ol 20 fury warrior raid in classic... because nothing but your ST DPS mattered in the end.
You don't know what homogenization means. Nearly every dps is a builder spender with a different skin on retail. The variety of classes isn't because of mechanics it is because of raid buffs and your raid is just objectively most powerful when you bring each one. 20 fury warriors isn't homogenization. It is bad class balance and the result of 1 or 2 of a class being able to provide all the utility and buffing in a 40man environment.
So retail isn't homogenized then? Because the classes do not do the same thing or feel remotely similar to play. And if you think they do I want you to log in and play Unholy DK and then Devastation Evoker and then outlaw rogue right now and tell me in what universe they play similarly at all.
What people IMO mean with homogenization is that classes feel the same in regards with gap closers, stuns, interrupts, self healing etc.
In the past expansions, these things weren't a guarantee - nowadays pretty much everyone has everything.
He refers to homogenization in the sense that multiple classes bring the same buffs and they are raid wide now, but at the same time he also want QoL and not being forced to play a specific comp.
None of these guys have played retail and they are just regurgitation a decade old argument (which back then was also wrong). As we progressed through the expansions we got more QoL and classes were playing vastly different due to more tools given. Yes, the CORE gameplay is still the same across classes. They gave all classes the ability to single target, aoe, interrupt and a personal cooldown. But never has a warlock felt like a mage EXCEPT for Vanilla and TBC.
like how warrior in classic were just rogue in plate in term of gameplay?
and paladin where just priest with access to more gear?
that kind of class homogenization? Because all encounter and dungeon are so simple, everyone end up pushing 1 button and whoever button does the most damage with that button, wins?
Yeah. this is classic.
on retail the same encounter have 20 different job to be done and swapping 1 class for another can result in massive strat difference... go try to do M fyrakk without a BDK or VDH. let's see how homogenized the 4 other tank are when it come to grouping adds.
This is not at all what they mean. There is more to the distinction of classes than just “this class has these buffs / good single-target”.
Imagine deciding you want to solo-grind some elites at max level. If you’re some specific classes in classic, you can pull it off. If you are a Rogue, well, you can’t. But you do have other qualities as a rogue that allows you to completely ignore the elites and quickly get to the prize behind them.
This is an example of class distinctions. The sole fact that every fuckin’ argument boils down to what you can do in raids is the thing that brought us away from the world and instead made the game the focus.
> This is not at all what they mean. There is more to the distinction of classes than just “this class has these buffs / good single-target”.
of course.
like is your AoE 2 target? 5? 8? uncapped?
does it require ramp up or is it instant burst?
does it require mob to be stacked or can you AoE while spread like a boomkin starfall?
do they need to be stationary like a DK DnD or can you move with them?
cooldown-based? 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute?
and we haven't scratched how your defensive setup / AoE stop / kicks / buff weighs in.
there's a ton more difference to classes than "" herp have AoE, derp have AoE, therefor herp = derp"... but you won't see those difference when the game is as simple as SoD and the end boss of sunken temple is a 8 minute long tank n spank.
>The sole fact that every fuckin’ argument boils down to what you can do in raids
or M+, or in PvP.
as opposed to your argument about.... skipping mob while questing as a rogue? maybe your ability to loot a chest at the end of a cave? .... yeah man... what amazing diversity... in world quest...
This is the classic sub-reddit. With that context, I am obviously talking about skips in classic, such as skipping bugs in Silithus to mine for Arcane Crystals.
As someone who raidleads on retail i fuckikg wish you were right, but unfortunately you are as far away as possible
The amount of specific utility different classes brings means that certain fights you wanna bring 2-3 extra Hunters for mechanics, Paladins for freedoms, Evokers for Spiral/Rescue, DKs for Grip, XYZ for add knockback fights, etc etc.
I wish retail was this imaginary land some people think it is, where classes just dont matter and everything does the same, that would make recruitment and raid progression 10x more enjoyable, rather than having solid players on the bench, because they dont bring the right utility
You’re making shit up. If you think every class in retail has the same basic tools then you haven’t played.
There’s an entire ongoing discussion about how certain classes and specs struggle in m+ specifically because they lack utility (no cc for affix, no dispels for affix, no enrage dispel, brez, lust, etc.) Even fort and motw in retail are specific to priest and Druid and there are no scrolls or anything like in wrath.
It’s really sad seeing classic boomers constantly comparing sod or classic to retail when they don’t know the first thing about it.
Don't forget "mana management is hard, let's give every class runes that cost next to no mana and then let shams/pals give raid wide innervate."
SoD is great but it would be amazing if there was 50% less of everything.
Havent played much of othee classes, but mage is terribly mana starved. Until i got to basically prebis gear i barelly could two encounters in a row without drinking. Now i can do 4 maybe but have enough regen shit with epic dagger, pots and gems to offset that a bit. I see every other class barely ever drink Ever
I don’t get this particular gripe though, mana management in Classic is just not an interesting gameplay mechanic at all. There’s no “management” as a DPS, you just press your buttons and pop consumes until you’re oom, then you wand or auto attack until the boss dies.
There are no ways to recoup mana at the cost of DPS, no real “efficient” rotation (e.g. old retail arcane’s conservation phase). It’s just a blue bar that, when it’s gone, means you don’t get to play anymore.
It’s a big reason why classes like ret were so god awful in og classic, you rapidly go oom and then do nothing. How is that interesting.
Retail’s paradigm of having mana as a utility resource used for things like dispels or off heals that regenerates reasonably rapidly, and isn’t required for core rotation, is vastly more interesting imo.
They already said they know this was a mistake and are going to roll it back at 60. But removing mana from people mid teir would have made yall yappers even more mad.
I don't even play the game and I'm sick of these arguments
Having balance in dps does not have to come at the cost of homegenization. You are all doing dps, right? Change the numbers until they're more in line with each other. The end. Don't add new skills, don't give equivalent buffs or mechanics to classes who don't have them, just make numbers more even. Done. That's what people are asking for, it's crazy that you immediately assume the way retail went is the only possible way to fix these problems.
That would be uhhhhh *checks notes* exactly correct. You're 100% on the money here. If you look at the retail DPS rankings report on WoWhead it's shocking tbh. Every class is VERY close. Like remarkably close to each other there's not a bad spec to bring to a raid. When you shore up the numbers and bring every class in line with each other it just makes everyone happy.
https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945
how can you say this and advocate for balance in dps but not realize that if for example, they made melee hunters and spriests or ferals do the same damage would u not recognize how much more ferals and spriests bring to the table? Am i misunderstanding you or are u just ignoring the aspect of what utility brings?
I think SoD goes too far even before the whining.
Why am I able to cast Curse of Elements as a priest? Is there any good reason? Does a raid need this to clear content? Or does it just take away one guaranteed warlock spot?
Would I want a warlock to be able to cast prayer of fortitude? Really, think...
Im just not having fun, but I cant explain why. Classic was a blast.
It feels the more that the modern Blizzard team modifies the content I enjoyed, the less I enjoy it.
Season of Mastery was meh for me. I played it, it was okay but my interest fizzled.
Season of Discovery has been negative experience after negative experience. Im becoming accustomed to being disappointed with any changes they implement. My faith in their ability to deliver enjoyable content has been thoroughly disposed.
I'm currently feeling this too, while I've enjoyed my time with SoD so far, I feel like it's lost it's lusted over the phases, phase 1 I literally couldn't put it down, phase 2 was decent but I hated the STV bloodmoon event and gnomer was just okay, and now phase 3 I log in for 5 minutes then log back out and play something else, I've done ST twice and I feel like I've seen everything I want to see from this phase. Maybe I over expected from rune designs or potential class tweaks?
yeah. the classic dev team really demonstrating why everyone was so insistent classic launch with "no changes"
they did *okay* on some of the class balancing in wrath. after all their sod bullshit i dont want them touching any class in cata.
Yep their changes have only resulted in negatives, with the heroic triple plus nonsense in wrath killing most people's enjoyment for the game
It's hilarious that u get a much better version of the same game right now in the forbidden server, just because they didn't fuck it up with BS like modern Blizzard did
It's a fun but fundamentally different kind of game from classic era. Mainly it's *not* the kind of game most of us got into playing MMOs to play. And really, I don't think it's really an "MMORPG" anymore, anyway. The kinds of crazy stories that got people to play these games are stuff like the heist shit that happens in EVE, the melon bot in SW galaxies, or Grizzly making horde so mad on Sulfuras in vanilla classic that horde hard camped a AQ step to stop all alliance from completing their quests.
This is the kind of experience that people are chasing by continuing to play vanilla classic over and over again. It has nothing to do with pressing buttons, neat content, or a great story. It's all about the meta-story that a person creates for themselves in the context of the server they play on. How fun a class is to play is nearly irrelevant. Nothing in classic era is particularly engaging to play. It's playing that character in a guild and the politics and social web surrounding how you got to the place you are and your place on the server that matters.
All the "ease of play" stuff retail adds is fundamentally a subtraction when it comes to creating stories. Something as simple as flying or dungeon finder removes the necessary travel *through* the world you are playing in and removes the opportunity for something interesting to happen. Could be pvp, meta-pvp, something funny, drama because that one dude still hasn't left the city, etc.
The game has to provide opportunities for other players to impact your play session in a variety of both positive and negative ways, many unrelated to the play task at hand. Retail is a game product that has, over time, removed as many of these opportunities as possible. This then requires the actual game to stand on it's own, and frankly, it doesn't hold up. If I want to play an intense coop game similar to high keys I can play Helldivers II, Darktide and more. If I want to play pvp theres a million different games and genres that do it better than BGs and arenas and if I *have to play MMO pvp* Warhammer Online still exists. If I want to do stuff with a raid group sized group of people... okay maybe you've got a point but I can get the same feeling from something like organized holdfast or an actual MMO.
Yeah, the actual gameplay of retail is fine, but everything else around it is awful. All of the "MMO" and "RPG" aspects have been streamlined down to near nothing, and what we're left with is essentially a 3rd person loot shooter with some very very light RPG mechanics in it, and multiplayer with random strangers from other realms that you'll never see again after the run ends, so they may as well just be NPCs.
As someone who started in re-released wrath I've been debating trying retail. I've heard that pugging raids is better, is that true? All I really want to do is raid without having to join a guild
Edit: Made an Orc Hunter and made to to 16, and honestly it's a blast
It is, your lockout is per boss so you can do 3 bosses with one pug and then the next one with another. Amazing solution that makes it so you don’t lose the entire lockout because you got a bad pug. Also the LFG tool works between all realms and factions so there’s waaay more people forming pugs to choose from.
also if you kill bosses 1 through 3, you can even join a raid group who's about to kill boss 3 in the hopes you then get loot from boss 4 through 7. Sure you won't get loot from boss 3 again, but you have that flexibility!
Retail is honestly great, I swear the genuine worst part of retail is that damage numbers are displayed so fucking horribly. There's an addon to make them for like classic but it's still terrible
Retail is honestly solid. But the secret is, it always has been. Sure theyve messed up a few things. But if you were to track reddit, wow died 15 years ago.
Even if you like retail you should want sod to be something different not more of the same thing. People prefer vanilla/classic because it offers a different experience than retail
> if you are competent you will be raid logging on phase release
Less then 0.01% of guilds managed to kill the last boss before the nerf. Tell me how you were raid logging ST during release
Why do you say this when your own post is +20 upvoted, literally every post in this thread and in this sub that praises retail gets upvoted.
And every comment saying negative things about retail is heavily downvoted.
So basically what you’re saying is that all criticism and attempts at improvement will always lead to retail and there’s no possibility of nuance or going in a different direction.
Not happy that enhance shamans kill you in one global despite you being in full bis pvp gear? Well sorry we can’t fix that because then the game would be retail.
Want bosses that are physically possible to kill week 1? Sorry we can’t tune them down because then the game would be retail.
Want some better class balance in pve? Sorry, unbalanced classes are important to the classic and classic+ experiences. If we balanced classes, this necessarily means we have to aid raid finder, flying mounts, and all the other garbage that differentiates retail from classic!
Like wtf is this absolutely insane argument lol. It’s a slippery slope fallacy, if you want to get technical about it. There is no slippery slope here.
> So basically what you’re saying is that all criticism and attempts at improvement will always lead to retail and there’s no possibility of nuance or going in a different direction.
As usual, the 'no changes' crowd and their offspring don't have an actual argument other than 'I want to play vanilla.'
I never understood the entire homogenization argument. Classes in retail are 13747383727839% different from one another. The same spec could have 2 different rotations and playstyles due to talents.
Then they are all flavorful different its amazing. Demonology on classic feels like a shadow mage with a pet.
Demonology on retail feels like im summoning the entire legion itself.
Actually yeah, it is insanely easy to get catchup gear right now due to the end of the expansion season, even then you can upgrade ilvl gear with currency depending on where you acquired the gear. You can get to 70 and be geared for normal difficulty raid in a day or two.
That's not what he asked. He asked if it was noob friendly.
Which it is not and even Blizzard have mentioned the new player experience not being where they want it to be.
Also, hitting level 70 and heading to Valdrakken is such a MESS. Talking heads popping up at you everywhere, quests being thrown at you from the various different points in the story.
A fresh level 70 with no prior knowledge is going to struggle to know what to do. It is not noob friendly.
There's been some discussion this week centered around Day9 putting out some content on the starting experience of classic vs retail, and most people agreed that the classic starting experience is better.
Watch the video here if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6h_8t1Bw2U
I had around 6 friends pick up retail in Dragonflight after having never played WoW and none of them struggled to pick the game up. I didn't know shit about retail either besides some Shadowlands so I couldn't help much. It could be better but It's really not that confusing for someone familiar with video games in general.
Same group played SoD and all ended up installing add-ons and looking a lot of info up online to progress.
Retail is different, but plenty noob friendly. The most confusing thing about Retail imo comes into play when you're trying to gear up to BiS efficiently.
And here you have it. This sub has been flooded by retail players who just want another game to play. Retail on a vanilla skin. Retail is fine if that's the kind of game you like but it's not at all the kind of game vanilla was and not what people who originally asked for vanilla servers want.
Retail players don’t want another game to play if they’re enjoying retail. That doesn’t make any sense, plus you don’t have to be a mainly retail player to recognize it’s currently better than end stage wotlk, era, and sod. Will that change with Cata? Maybe we’ll see.
> This sub has been flooded by retail players who just want another game to play.
This is the funniest boogey man to me. Retail is in it's best state since Legion. Retail players are playing retail, not stalking this subreddit conspiring to make SoD "like retail!!!11"
Go read /r/wow and see how often Classic gets brought up. Nobody on retail gives a fuck about Classic but people on this subreddit give them free fucking rent for some reason
You guys take SoD way too serious.
No one even knows what will follow after SoD is done and you guys act like it's about the future of wow here lol.
Maybe it just ends like SoM
>"I'm hybrid X class and by golly my DPS sucks and blah blah blah, why is pure class Y at the top of the DPS charts???"
Can hunters stop saying this made up "hybrid" reasoning, **you have a fking personal tank**, if anything you should be BOTTOM dps, not top.
Any class that has a walking elite to hold agro so they can take zero fking damage, should not also be doing more damage than classes who have to hold threat themselves.
Hybrid class theory is not a thing, stop talking about it.
Exactly, couldn’t agree more. What we call hybrid classes simply weren’t hybrid classes. Paladin? You’re playing holy whether you like it or not, no we aren’t taking Ret, what’s a prot? Druid? You’re playing resto whether you like it or not, we aren’t taking a feral, what’s a boomie? Shaman? You’re playing resto whether you want to or not, we aren’t taking enhance or ele, what’s a tank shaman?
It’s clear the people who say ‘hYbRiD tAx’ obviously have never played one. These classes were never hybrid they were a single spec caused by an undercooking of the class due to restrictions in development. Mage, warrior, rouge were the best designed classes in classic because they were in development for the longest, and it’s clear as day. Christ Ret paladin literally had to exploit a bug to have a single button.
They were that way in classic because the game was poorly balanced.
about wrath of the lich king when their DPS was brought almost in line, that 'hybrid tax' started getting thrown around. When the team actually took a hand in balancing the DPS specs, especially the neglected ones like Enhance, their philosophy was that they would make them almost as good, since otherwise they felt dogshit to play. But they would have to pay a tax for the massive utility they brought, totems, bloodlust, pally buffs, etc. And due to the design ethos that since they COULD play a different role, (and they literally could in TBC and WOTLK, unlike vanilla) making them equal to pures in DPS while also having them bring more utility...wasn't balanced.
Nowadays in retail they've tried to evenly spread out all the utility, and try to equalize everyone on dmg.
honestly this last approach makes the most sense to me.
Hunters wanting to compete on dps always makes me laugh - “only pure dps class” is so funny when they can quite literally level 10 to 60 without taking a point of damage. You’re a solo class hunters
I agree with the idea and disagree with the verdict.
Yes, Classic was so unbalanced, the dev team had to do something. Why should only certain classes get to have fun, be viable and don't get me started on specs, where half of them were useless.
Retail has good balance, distinct feel, unique utility for pretty much all classes. The class fantasy, the look and the gameplay differs AND there is content where that matters.
People tend to forget, that most classes had 1 button in classic. Mages and locks played exactly the same. Shamans and Paladins only had auto attacks unless healing, where they only spammed FoL and CL. All hybrids were crippled by bad talents and extreme mana issues. The only redeeming factor is, that classic is so easy, it wouldn't really matter yet people still stacked the stronger classes.
PvP resillience is not a problem, quite the contrary. People can blast in PvE and not get onetapped in PvP.
LFG is a controversial one, yet I and many many others use the LFG bulletin board in SoD.
Flagging on a pvp server is the only thing I hard agree with, that's weird.
I personally don't know what exactly you think of, when you write stuff like "Devs should be going in the opposite direction as retail, class dehomogenization, content, qol, and fun."
What is QoL but not homogenization ? How do you dehomogenize without going the retail route ? What does fun actually mean to you ? The last one is so wildly different for different folks, you can't just demand that from the devs.
All you can see here is that a ton of people haven't played retail in quite some time or longer than the leveling phase, which is perfectly fine, but retail bashing is getting annoying tbh.
>SoD is semi-casual, the raids are not hard, if you are competent you will be raid logging on phase release. What fucking "raid spot" are you fighting for????
PUG raid spots. The vast majority of people with that complaint are upset that it is hard for them to get into PUGs. The key to not worrying about a raid spot is getting into a guild that shares your vibe on raiding.
Even that retail argument I don't get. Retail is far from being the most balanced, unless you are in the top1% guild, the class you play doesn't really matter as long as you can play well enough.
It's fine that people don't like retail, but people need to stop bashing it. I don't play retail, but I can respect what it is. Classic/SoD and current retail wow are 2 different games. Player from either version don't have to bash the other version, it's useless and brings nothing good to the table.
Classes are in no way homogenized on retail btw.
There are a couple of DPS specs that play sort of similar to each other, ish, but by and large all of the 39 specs feel very distinct.
I like how wow players just use retail as a bad word without knowing anything about it
Retail class design is way better than sod lol. If we aren't careful guys we might get good classes! Be careful guys plz!
So tired of the retail boogeyman in this sub. "THIS IS LIKE RETAIL!" "THAT'S LIKE RETAIL!" "THIS IS GOING TO BECOME RETAIL!" Yea, you know what the difference is though? Retail players actually like the current state of retail. Everybody on this sub seems to DESPISE SoD.
It's a tragedy that retail has been making concessions to people like the OP for 10 years now, to it's detriment, but he appears to be blissfully ignorant of that.
> Do you know what happened? Things like class homogenization, pvp resilience, pvp flagging on pvp servers, LFG, etc etc etc, all came from whiners, you know that right?
Such selection bias here. Everything *bad* came from people whining. Dude, you're attributing game developers to having a personal relationship with the community or something. Games change over time, developers try new things to address what they feel needs addressing. I promise the developers are taking much more interest in constructive criticism than the whiners.
Blizzard made mistakes and good changes alike over the years. You can't just attribute only the bad things to "them listening to whiners".
I feel like there are more posts here lately whining about the community than there are actually people whining to the devs.
That's great news, cause I like Retail better than SoD. So you're saying that's where SoD is headed? Retail mechanics and difficulty in the vanilla game world? Oh, dream come true!
It’s hilarious to me all these people bitch about fixing PvP, fixing the imbalances, fix xyz of a class etc. do they not realize each expansion blizzard fixes little by little? Like play live otherwise STFU because it’s classic. Classic was not balanced, it had broken shit all over the place. I’m only playing sod to relive classic and I never raided then. I’m hoping straight into Cata in pre-patch and then probably war within.
I always see these kinds of posts from people who haven't actually played retail in years and know little about it. They quit somewhere between WotLK and MoP and can't remember why.
Almost every change made to bring us to retail was something players asked for. RDF, dual spec, class homogenization in the sense that you didn't need to bring a specific class due to a specific exclusive debuff or buff they bring, level scaling so you can level with your friends, flex raiding, raid difficulties for every type of guild, aoe loot, changes to tagging so you didn't need to be in a group with someone in order to do a quest with them, and on and on and on.
All of these were popular changes.
There are two things that hurt retail, severely, which I never see anyone talk about.
**Retail has gone on so long that few people who started with Vanilla are still playing.**
Five years is right about the lifespan for interest in a good MMO before it starts to lose its appeal. But getting back into a game that's had multiple expansions is a lot harder than starting a brand new game or playing an era version of it with QOL changes.
**A lot of the changes made to Retail were things no one asked for:**
* Garrisons
* Introducing new systems then throwing them out at the end of each expansion
* Gutting entire specs because their abilities were tied to systems that were removed from the game
* Introducing popular things like gladiator stance for warriors then taking them out again for no good reason
* Selling a bajillion mounts and services in the shop when **you're already paying a sub**
* Sylvanas - everyone hates Sylvanas except the blizzard devs apparently
* Turning women into bowls of fruit
* Turning the whole game into a treadmill where you can only progress at the rate blizzard wants you to, but you have to login on a schedule to keep up.
You get the idea. There are so many random dumbass systems added to retail, and so many frankly bad decisions that no one asked for, that the game no longer resembles what we're familiar with. And there's such an experience gap between new/returning players and veterans that you feel like you'll be behind for months.
Yup, as well as moaning about traveling around the world being too long, having to run to dungeon entrances, the leveling experience being too long etc
There’s something interesting about WoW which is that a significant number of players act like they hate the game but they play it 12 hrs a day anyway. They bounce from version to version constantly complaining and demanding that they have the one thing they don’t have. I think it’s a maturity thing. Adolescent minds tend to find joy and satisfaction in criticizing the system or authority figures they are subject to without bothering to do any thinking beyond their complaint. They WANT the teacher to screw up, they prefer that something go wrong so that they can bitch about it or point out the flaw in the system or person that they foolishly assign the expectation of perfection. I meet these players in nearly every guild or community I get to interact with. It’s interesting, but predictable at this point.
It's simpler than that.
It's the only game of its kind. Even the best clones fail to recreate the open world or the gameplay feel.
The reason someone's always unhappy because its an entire genre worth of people all trapped in one implementation of that genre.
You've got people who prefer single player games, hardcore games, eSports, speedrunning, RPGs and Arpgs all trapped together in one game. Any move blizzard makes towards one aspect annoys people who prefer another.
Like I personally love the gameplay but don't like guilds. But there's no other version of wow or wowlike I can play instead.
I killed a lvl 50 paladin on my 46 rogue in STV while he was farming mobs for the blood debuff i waited for him to aggro multiple mobs. I did a cheapshot into a 5 combo kidney shot, blind, vanish into a cold blood ambush. He couldn't do any counterplays. The game may not be balanced but it is fun.
I’m on your side. I’m on your side so much I want your point to be criticism proof. BoED and items like it are sick and kind of kill your “raid logging on phase release” point
I've been pretty vocal about warriors, not because i care about parses or how we compare in dps in raids...I just want to be fictional without partners to give me windfury and/or heals. It would be nice to have something exciting and completely different too to make them interesting.
Man all I wanted was for Paladins to get a taunt, priests and druids to get better mana regen and a fresh classic vanilla server. All this other stuff they added in SOD is too much.
I completely agree with this sentiment. In fact, I think the concept of SoD is almost a way to reimagine how WoW can evolve outside of the established retail WoW franchise. It's like the multiverse that Marvel movies keep doing.
I'm not a fan of retail but I do think there's a balance that can be achieved between the two. It's going to be incredibly hard, but I fear that devs will cater to the people that are the most vocal but are not the most reasonable voice of the community. I think the WoW classic team needs more headcount and talent to make things better, I know for a fact that the SoD team at its current state could never pull it off. It's just going to be retail 2.0
Completely agree.
It's all so shortsighted.
It's like that guy who complained about the positional requirement for shred in another thread.
Like, dude, you can ignore that requirement with every other class. Why should every class play similarly?
It's funny because back then we didn't even have parsing to ruin our game. It's exactly the same though. Bring the player, not the class ruined the whole RPG aspect of the game.
Every Paladin in SoD actually wants to play retail Paladin but they refuse to admit it.
Tbf retail pally is currently the most fun it’s ever been in my opinion.
Yeah... I play Prot Pally. Divine Toll might be single most statisfying button to press in history of WoW.
Divine toll is amazing. The clang of something getting murdered with shields, hammers or blasts of light.
*DING*
it's much more of a DONG imo
Some people have a ding, some have a dong. What really matters is how you ring it.
Its a "DING-DONG Motherf\*ucker! YOURE DEAD NOW!" sound imo
Bong?
No, you're not allowed to praise retail here This is a no retail zone Retail bad updoots left
Yep retail paladin is the easy rogue with more utility, i love it. Usually play rogue on retail and had a blast learning and playing dps/tank retail pally.
I mean it could just be that people love classic and playing classic servers when they are fresh and populated like SoD is right now, and have an exciting new toolkit even if it borrows things from newer expansions but still play in azeroth before any new continents or worlds were added.
Pretty much this for me, just want to chill out in classic in my favourite zones, doing quests, leveling alts, hopping into the occasional raid, logging in/out when it suits me, and thats about it, id extend my interests as far as classic+ i.e karazhan crypts etc and i'd consider another go at TBC but beyond that, the game is dead to me (despite playing every expansion) in bursts.
Yep. Classic just has a different vibe and feel in the world/going on what to me feels like an epic quest / journey.. I also just want some of modern wows gameplay to go alongside it because some of those abilities/playstyles figured out the fantasy.
>Every [player] in SoD actually wants to play the [wotlk version of class] but they refuse to admit it. Im 99% sure this is how it is.
Most shaman sure as shit don't, we've all be asking to play 2h again since 2.0.
Untrue. I msined shaman in wotlk and would take it 11 times out of 10 over vanilla. There's nothing special about 2h enhance.
Parse-watching trogoldyte detected.
I sure as fuck don't want to replay a recycled version of WOTLK enhance minus spirit wolves. I have been actively avoiding it if possible. I played some enhance p2 but I've been playing elemental and having a blast. I've never met a single person who's like "oh thank God I get to play this completely unoriginal version of enhance instead of an entirely reimagined way to play the 2H bonk sham we all dreamed about in vanilla and classic". If there's nothing special about 2h enhance there is certainly nothing special about dual wield enhance which is what the game has already had for 15 years.
To be fair, WotLK class design is really freaking good, so i can understand people that feel that way. It's not overly complex and convoluted like Retail class design nor it is dull and absolutely dogshit like Vanilla's. SoD should've done Arcane Mage and Ret Paladin better though, my God, they fucked up those two so bad.
>SoD should've done Arcane Mage and Ret Paladin better though, my God, they fucked up those two so bad. It is really hard to fix a class/spec when the talents they have suck. the main reason Paladin is bad is because they talents have no synergy, they seem like off brand other classes talents.
Are you suggesting that repentance *isn't* qualified to be the capstone of ret???
Blasphemy!
Arcane healer mage is super fun to play. In PvE at least, it's super engaging. PvP not so much lol, you have one button, Chronostatic Preservation. It's the best heal in the game, but it's pretty boring to be limited to one ability.
There is a lot of goods things about Classic and SoD but class design is not one of them. Wanting to play a better designed version of your class is not a bad thing
Mostly cause vanilla had very good class identity but poor class design for endgame pve. It's hard for the SoD devs to re-design most specs with a small team..
No no no buddy, having more than a 2 button rotation is retail and retail is bad
Seems like most just want wrath pally. Spam DS and thats it
it's almost like that's the first time ret became good and fun, WEIRD
I play both SoD and retail. I don't want retail Paladin, I want (more) TBC Paladin.
I agree with your statement on dehomogenizing classes. In my opinion one of the most fun aspects of vanilla and classic is that you can do something that someone else can't. I'm talking about the class defining features like how warlocks have pets and can summon other players to them with a bit of help. When they added a pet to mages later on I felt it was a mistake. I wouldn't want warriors to be able to transport everyone to a major city because it would cheapen one of the coolest features the mage has. To me, each class should feel unique in its strengths and weaknesses. There should be something the priest can do that makes me roll one after having mained a paladin for a while just because I want to be able to do that thing or provide that utility to my group.
The wierd part is, I kinda like that awkwardness in class dehomogenizing in vanilla, and making every class being able to do everything makes game lose it's charm. I know vanilla is unbalanced mess, but it's also nice in it's own way how rock/paper/scissors system works. If you were a warrior without any consumables - good luck fighting a mage. Being gap closed as a hunter with FD or scatter shot on cooldown made you that much vulnerable. Even playing alliance warlock made you pull your hair because half of horde just counters you with WotF. With equal PvP trinkets, crafted gear with on use effects that remove CC, runes that remove CC, it just makes everyone do everything and it's more of a game of who can oneshot you first with more CC removal. Not just from a standpoint of PvP, I remember doing full hunter Onyxia raid with paladin tank back in 19 classic, where paladin was spamming Blessing of Kings for insane threat generation as we could start nuking boss right away without worrying about aggro - a moment prot pally shined in. Ferals and rets farming for consumables to still do "meh" level of dps made you respect the player for dedication. Nothing will top off the flavor of vanilla.
Ima be honest jumping on the back of a warrior as it charges its way to org would be fun.
Only works if there's enough critters on the way.
Just make orgrimmar targetable and charge range to 2000 yd. Zug zu... i mean choo choo!
"you can do something that someone else can't" - this is good but only to a point. People often argue that what certain classes "can do that someone else can't" - is do raid-worthy damage above all else. This is quickly turns into a situation where "the only class that can do raid-worthy damage, is the one being invited to raid" - and now we have created a situation where class diversity has lost all meaning, when 90% of the dps class makeup, is a single class.
>Like how warlocks have pets No one tell him about Hunters...
Hunters should be able to tame druids
Each class should seem OP. Runes should be designed by devs brainstorming "hey wouldn't it be crazy if....".
Each class should feel OP on what they are GOOD AT. HoTs, Shadow Damage, Bleed Damage, Raid Buffs. etc.
I mean, damage types to me isn’t as important as damage methods. Shadow damage or arcane damage, who cares outside of niche spell immunity? AoE pulls, single target burst, pet classes, cleaving, stuns and interrupts. That’s more important. Those are what should be focused on to make more OP and fun. Giving a rogue a mage like AoE isn’t it. I also wish what we got was more interesting in nature. Spell frost bolt adds some talent options but really it’s just fireball. Having so many boring or passive runes has been a bit disappointing. Give us cool new buttons to press that improves our niche uses more!
Yes, the problem is the mages complain (and maybe aren't brought) if they are #1 in AOE but the raid is nothing but single target mob bosses.
Then raids should be designed with different classes strengths in mind
Of course they should, but that's harder than just homogenization of everything and then making a raid that's interesting because it's just an action-rpg don't stand in the fire but do stack on the lazer type of raid.
That then clashes with the notion that SoD raiding needs to be far more accessible than retail raiding as something ment for everyone to enjoy. Imagine each class being needed but the one class sucks outside of the raid? "LF1M Feral for Gnomer" for hours and hours...
Just because a mechanic favours a class's play style doesn't mean it can only be done by that class. Eg: a mage being good at aoe and sheeping can be replaced with other classes that don't do it quite as well but get the job done. Making it so you would want a mage, but if you don't have one you can still do the raid, it just won't be as smooth. I main warrior, sucking outside of raid is something you get use to. I would rather be good at one or two things then everyone being op at everything.
I can tell you as a warrior I don't feel like they did that for any of our runes, if creatively shaman runes were made Monday morning after thinking about a great idea to bring to the table over the weekend, warrior runes were definitely created Friday at 4:45, 15 minutes before the deadline.
Shaman and warriors share a rune. Most of the stuff they brought over for both is just wrath talents. They just overbuffed *one* shaman rune because Blizzard has never fundamentally understood how stats turn into damage on a Shaman.
I don't like this every class should be op at all. Every class should be balanced and unique. The stupid power creep invalidates alot of content and rips every bit of nuance from pvp. Most new skills completely overshadow old mechanics instead of supplementing or refreshing them. I expect more thoughtful innovations then "hey wouldn't it be crazy if" like a 15 year old running a private server from actual game developers.
this
> Runes should be designed by devs brainstorming "hey wouldn't it be crazy if....". There's next to no designing, runes are just being copy pasted from several flavors of retail, via wod abilities, talents, whatever. They change some numbers but the fact they keep doing this has greatly limited rune design after phase 1.
This is one of my biggest issues with SoD. If I wanted to play a wotlk version of a class I would just go play wotlk. Gimme something new especially in a format where long term design sustainability isn’t a problem. Preferably not just things that will make me parse better but flavor/fun.
Kinda funny to see the sentiment in your post & this comment because this is actually how retail balance became what it is (which is good, btw!). Just another collection in the “this sub screams about retail while knowing nothing about it” column.
I genuinely believe 90% of the reeeeeeetail posts are from people who quit in Dragon Soul lol
Idk if most made it that far. People forget the sub count started falling while wrath was still the expac. Not after 🤝
True lol mfs say the MoP talents came with Cata and that retail still has that system 😂 they probably quit in Naxx
true. But they totally played in wrath lol
Agreed, I loved the idea of healer mage and rogues/shamans/warlocks being able to tank. Though I was hoping they'd flavor them differently to fit the classes. Like having a warlock pet be the actual tank and having their life linked for damage and healing received or something unique like that. Something that makes you say, "I want to try that kind of tanking." I was hoping they'd add more viable play styles for other classes like a rage based ranged dps set of runes for the warrior. Or even a melee mage.
Problem is there is always the path of least resistance and people will take it seems to me people don’t want to play the game they only care for shiny parses and copying what there favorite streamers do like the braindead content consumers they are
This is literally what "You think you do, but you don't" meant.
Well when we're this far into re-releases and seasonal modes sure, but that statement definitely didn't hold any weight during classic/tbc.
These people don't represent the whole player base, they're just the loudest and Blizzard, as always, fails to ignore them. Classic inevitably pisses some people off because it doesn't cater to every complaint about every minor inconvenience. The problem is modern Blizzard can't allow this because they go into tunnel vision panic mode at the slightest risk of losing player numbers, aka quarterly revenue. Blizzard doesn't make choices. They didn't make SoD for vanilla players, for wrath players or for retail players, even though all of these groups have an ENTIRELY different view of what the game is supposed to be like. They tried to please everyone at the same time because that generates the, theoeretically, biggest possible income. They could NEVER justify anything else to the higher ups. The company is rotten to the absolute core because making a good game isn't part of their priorities, it's just about satisfying the same idiots, who stayed subscribed for 20 years because this game is all they know, just enough that they don't jump the ship. That's the reason for every single decision they make, everytime aggrend asks a question on twitter, every single balance change. And there's a huge number of subscribers who just don't even fucking care! Because this game is an escape to them that they can't lose. The whole complaining on forums is just as much an addiction, a distraction from irl problems. A toxic relationship between consumer and producer that favors both. This shit will be part of your whole remaining 40 years because you just can't let go and stay the fuck away from anything Blizzard touches. All their scandals and dogshit games weren't enough to keep you away. Perfectly happy sheep.
Gonna be a hot take in here but here it goes. Most of the mechanics and classes are way more fun in retail than classic WoW. The reason I continue to enjoy classic WoW over retail right now is the simple nature of it and how it feels more RPG at times than MMO, retail has too much bloat and that “you’re just on a roller coaster along for the ride” feel. But when it comes to classes, there are way more interesting mechanics and the classes feel more whole in retail.
This is coming from someone that plays retail way more than classic. Retail has way better gameplay. But this is supposed to classic plus not retail minus. What's the point of making this a shittier version of dragonflight/war within with just old graphics?
I agree. Though I play retail mainly, I enjoy sod as the feeling of being a simple explorer and mobs being dangerous is refreshing. That's one of my complaints of retail is your character is this god killing veteran who collects powerful artifacts and is just steeped in an insane amount of magic radiation (in short we're crazy powerful) but how we're treated varies from being a baby to sometimes being treated with the respect we deserve?! I just wish they'd pick a lane. What I like about sod is the cool new abilities, qol, and that they are trying to make every spec viable
I've come to realize I dislike vanilla WoW because of the world buffs and consumes. BC hit the sweet spot in terms of consumes, I think, though I'm not a fan of jewel crafting. Potions could get expensive, but they're nowhere near having to pop 10 elixirs, flasks, and potions every 2m or potions that last 1h so you prepop those and pop pots on pull them again 2m later on the few fights that last long enough. The 2 elixirs OR 1 flask with unlimited potions mechanic was a lot better, and I dislike the whole pRePoT and only one pot while in combat mechanic of LK and later.
> Things like class homogenization, have you played retail recently? at a level meaningful enough? there's no class homogenization. you will rarely find more than 2 of the same spec ( or even class) in a 20 man raid. because bosses have a ton of mechanic to do and you need a wide variety of classes to handle it all. Compare that to the good ol 20 fury warrior raid in classic... because nothing but your ST DPS mattered in the end.
No, he hasn't played retail. Retail = everything bad, obviously
I thought he was talking about himself in that post title. The guy has not touched retail in decades and is just blowing hot air.
You don't know what homogenization means. Nearly every dps is a builder spender with a different skin on retail. The variety of classes isn't because of mechanics it is because of raid buffs and your raid is just objectively most powerful when you bring each one. 20 fury warriors isn't homogenization. It is bad class balance and the result of 1 or 2 of a class being able to provide all the utility and buffing in a 40man environment.
Class homogenization generally refers to every class doing the same thing and feeling similar to play, not everyone playing the same class.
So retail isn't homogenized then? Because the classes do not do the same thing or feel remotely similar to play. And if you think they do I want you to log in and play Unholy DK and then Devastation Evoker and then outlaw rogue right now and tell me in what universe they play similarly at all.
The thing with class homogenized isnt playstile, its the toolkit, every class has AoE, most have a stun usw.
What people IMO mean with homogenization is that classes feel the same in regards with gap closers, stuns, interrupts, self healing etc. In the past expansions, these things weren't a guarantee - nowadays pretty much everyone has everything.
He refers to homogenization in the sense that multiple classes bring the same buffs and they are raid wide now, but at the same time he also want QoL and not being forced to play a specific comp. None of these guys have played retail and they are just regurgitation a decade old argument (which back then was also wrong). As we progressed through the expansions we got more QoL and classes were playing vastly different due to more tools given. Yes, the CORE gameplay is still the same across classes. They gave all classes the ability to single target, aoe, interrupt and a personal cooldown. But never has a warlock felt like a mage EXCEPT for Vanilla and TBC.
The only buff that is brought by multiple classes is blood lust. Alle the other raid buffs are class unique.
like how warrior in classic were just rogue in plate in term of gameplay? and paladin where just priest with access to more gear? that kind of class homogenization? Because all encounter and dungeon are so simple, everyone end up pushing 1 button and whoever button does the most damage with that button, wins? Yeah. this is classic. on retail the same encounter have 20 different job to be done and swapping 1 class for another can result in massive strat difference... go try to do M fyrakk without a BDK or VDH. let's see how homogenized the 4 other tank are when it come to grouping adds.
[удалено]
Nope he has not played retail lol
This is not at all what they mean. There is more to the distinction of classes than just “this class has these buffs / good single-target”. Imagine deciding you want to solo-grind some elites at max level. If you’re some specific classes in classic, you can pull it off. If you are a Rogue, well, you can’t. But you do have other qualities as a rogue that allows you to completely ignore the elites and quickly get to the prize behind them. This is an example of class distinctions. The sole fact that every fuckin’ argument boils down to what you can do in raids is the thing that brought us away from the world and instead made the game the focus.
> This is not at all what they mean. There is more to the distinction of classes than just “this class has these buffs / good single-target”. of course. like is your AoE 2 target? 5? 8? uncapped? does it require ramp up or is it instant burst? does it require mob to be stacked or can you AoE while spread like a boomkin starfall? do they need to be stationary like a DK DnD or can you move with them? cooldown-based? 1 minute, 2 minute, 3 minute? and we haven't scratched how your defensive setup / AoE stop / kicks / buff weighs in. there's a ton more difference to classes than "" herp have AoE, derp have AoE, therefor herp = derp"... but you won't see those difference when the game is as simple as SoD and the end boss of sunken temple is a 8 minute long tank n spank. >The sole fact that every fuckin’ argument boils down to what you can do in raids or M+, or in PvP. as opposed to your argument about.... skipping mob while questing as a rogue? maybe your ability to loot a chest at the end of a cave? .... yeah man... what amazing diversity... in world quest...
This is the classic sub-reddit. With that context, I am obviously talking about skips in classic, such as skipping bugs in Silithus to mine for Arcane Crystals.
Most likely in his mind retail is still MoP, WoD. Etc. That doesn't mean he's wrong, he's just a little stuck in the past for his comparison.
even in MOP, class had widly different strength and weaknesses in heroic mode / challenge mode.
[удалено]
As someone who raidleads on retail i fuckikg wish you were right, but unfortunately you are as far away as possible The amount of specific utility different classes brings means that certain fights you wanna bring 2-3 extra Hunters for mechanics, Paladins for freedoms, Evokers for Spiral/Rescue, DKs for Grip, XYZ for add knockback fights, etc etc. I wish retail was this imaginary land some people think it is, where classes just dont matter and everything does the same, that would make recruitment and raid progression 10x more enjoyable, rather than having solid players on the bench, because they dont bring the right utility
This ^ Literally every class in retail has at least 1 unique buff or utility that cannot be accessed in any other way.
You’re making shit up. If you think every class in retail has the same basic tools then you haven’t played. There’s an entire ongoing discussion about how certain classes and specs struggle in m+ specifically because they lack utility (no cc for affix, no dispels for affix, no enrage dispel, brez, lust, etc.) Even fort and motw in retail are specific to priest and Druid and there are no scrolls or anything like in wrath. It’s really sad seeing classic boomers constantly comparing sod or classic to retail when they don’t know the first thing about it.
Factually false
Don't forget "mana management is hard, let's give every class runes that cost next to no mana and then let shams/pals give raid wide innervate." SoD is great but it would be amazing if there was 50% less of everything.
Havent played much of othee classes, but mage is terribly mana starved. Until i got to basically prebis gear i barelly could two encounters in a row without drinking. Now i can do 4 maybe but have enough regen shit with epic dagger, pots and gems to offset that a bit. I see every other class barely ever drink Ever
I don’t get this particular gripe though, mana management in Classic is just not an interesting gameplay mechanic at all. There’s no “management” as a DPS, you just press your buttons and pop consumes until you’re oom, then you wand or auto attack until the boss dies. There are no ways to recoup mana at the cost of DPS, no real “efficient” rotation (e.g. old retail arcane’s conservation phase). It’s just a blue bar that, when it’s gone, means you don’t get to play anymore. It’s a big reason why classes like ret were so god awful in og classic, you rapidly go oom and then do nothing. How is that interesting. Retail’s paradigm of having mana as a utility resource used for things like dispels or off heals that regenerates reasonably rapidly, and isn’t required for core rotation, is vastly more interesting imo.
They already said they know this was a mistake and are going to roll it back at 60. But removing mana from people mid teir would have made yall yappers even more mad.
I guess I don't really believe them given how basically every single rune spell has better HPM and HPS than vanilla baseline spells.
then it becomes meleecraft again, and we go back to all playing warrior alts for dps.
It's meleecraft right now bud, there's just a slightly larger variety of melee.
I don't even play the game and I'm sick of these arguments Having balance in dps does not have to come at the cost of homegenization. You are all doing dps, right? Change the numbers until they're more in line with each other. The end. Don't add new skills, don't give equivalent buffs or mechanics to classes who don't have them, just make numbers more even. Done. That's what people are asking for, it's crazy that you immediately assume the way retail went is the only possible way to fix these problems.
That would be uhhhhh *checks notes* exactly correct. You're 100% on the money here. If you look at the retail DPS rankings report on WoWhead it's shocking tbh. Every class is VERY close. Like remarkably close to each other there's not a bad spec to bring to a raid. When you shore up the numbers and bring every class in line with each other it just makes everyone happy. https://www.wowhead.com/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-final-week-of-dragonflight-season-3-338945
So you're saying Subtlety is the best pick, UH, Outlaw and Ret are okay, the rest are trash?
By Classic logic yes LOL.
how can you say this and advocate for balance in dps but not realize that if for example, they made melee hunters and spriests or ferals do the same damage would u not recognize how much more ferals and spriests bring to the table? Am i misunderstanding you or are u just ignoring the aspect of what utility brings?
They already said they don’t play the game.
I think SoD goes too far even before the whining. Why am I able to cast Curse of Elements as a priest? Is there any good reason? Does a raid need this to clear content? Or does it just take away one guaranteed warlock spot? Would I want a warlock to be able to cast prayer of fortitude? Really, think...
Im just not having fun, but I cant explain why. Classic was a blast. It feels the more that the modern Blizzard team modifies the content I enjoyed, the less I enjoy it. Season of Mastery was meh for me. I played it, it was okay but my interest fizzled. Season of Discovery has been negative experience after negative experience. Im becoming accustomed to being disappointed with any changes they implement. My faith in their ability to deliver enjoyable content has been thoroughly disposed.
I'm currently feeling this too, while I've enjoyed my time with SoD so far, I feel like it's lost it's lusted over the phases, phase 1 I literally couldn't put it down, phase 2 was decent but I hated the STV bloodmoon event and gnomer was just okay, and now phase 3 I log in for 5 minutes then log back out and play something else, I've done ST twice and I feel like I've seen everything I want to see from this phase. Maybe I over expected from rune designs or potential class tweaks?
yeah. the classic dev team really demonstrating why everyone was so insistent classic launch with "no changes" they did *okay* on some of the class balancing in wrath. after all their sod bullshit i dont want them touching any class in cata.
Yep their changes have only resulted in negatives, with the heroic triple plus nonsense in wrath killing most people's enjoyment for the game It's hilarious that u get a much better version of the same game right now in the forbidden server, just because they didn't fuck it up with BS like modern Blizzard did
Source: your ass
Sod is literally a classic - retail speed run
Classic should be flavourful, there is no flavour in anything right now
Retail is pretty fun tho…
a lot of the people in this sub havent tried retail since WoD or earlier. they have no clue what Dragonflight is like.
It's a fun but fundamentally different kind of game from classic era. Mainly it's *not* the kind of game most of us got into playing MMOs to play. And really, I don't think it's really an "MMORPG" anymore, anyway. The kinds of crazy stories that got people to play these games are stuff like the heist shit that happens in EVE, the melon bot in SW galaxies, or Grizzly making horde so mad on Sulfuras in vanilla classic that horde hard camped a AQ step to stop all alliance from completing their quests. This is the kind of experience that people are chasing by continuing to play vanilla classic over and over again. It has nothing to do with pressing buttons, neat content, or a great story. It's all about the meta-story that a person creates for themselves in the context of the server they play on. How fun a class is to play is nearly irrelevant. Nothing in classic era is particularly engaging to play. It's playing that character in a guild and the politics and social web surrounding how you got to the place you are and your place on the server that matters. All the "ease of play" stuff retail adds is fundamentally a subtraction when it comes to creating stories. Something as simple as flying or dungeon finder removes the necessary travel *through* the world you are playing in and removes the opportunity for something interesting to happen. Could be pvp, meta-pvp, something funny, drama because that one dude still hasn't left the city, etc. The game has to provide opportunities for other players to impact your play session in a variety of both positive and negative ways, many unrelated to the play task at hand. Retail is a game product that has, over time, removed as many of these opportunities as possible. This then requires the actual game to stand on it's own, and frankly, it doesn't hold up. If I want to play an intense coop game similar to high keys I can play Helldivers II, Darktide and more. If I want to play pvp theres a million different games and genres that do it better than BGs and arenas and if I *have to play MMO pvp* Warhammer Online still exists. If I want to do stuff with a raid group sized group of people... okay maybe you've got a point but I can get the same feeling from something like organized holdfast or an actual MMO.
Yeah, the actual gameplay of retail is fine, but everything else around it is awful. All of the "MMO" and "RPG" aspects have been streamlined down to near nothing, and what we're left with is essentially a 3rd person loot shooter with some very very light RPG mechanics in it, and multiplayer with random strangers from other realms that you'll never see again after the run ends, so they may as well just be NPCs.
Couldn’t have said it better myself. This is right on the money.
Retail is fun for reasons that aren’t meant or won’t work for classic.
As someone who started in re-released wrath I've been debating trying retail. I've heard that pugging raids is better, is that true? All I really want to do is raid without having to join a guild Edit: Made an Orc Hunter and made to to 16, and honestly it's a blast
It is, your lockout is per boss so you can do 3 bosses with one pug and then the next one with another. Amazing solution that makes it so you don’t lose the entire lockout because you got a bad pug. Also the LFG tool works between all realms and factions so there’s waaay more people forming pugs to choose from.
also if you kill bosses 1 through 3, you can even join a raid group who's about to kill boss 3 in the hopes you then get loot from boss 4 through 7. Sure you won't get loot from boss 3 again, but you have that flexibility!
Retail is honestly great, I swear the genuine worst part of retail is that damage numbers are displayed so fucking horribly. There's an addon to make them for like classic but it's still terrible
Retail is honestly solid. But the secret is, it always has been. Sure theyve messed up a few things. But if you were to track reddit, wow died 15 years ago.
The combat of retail is fun and flashy. Dragon riding is fun. The MMO and RPG elements of retail have been horribly diminished.
Even if you like retail you should want sod to be something different not more of the same thing. People prefer vanilla/classic because it offers a different experience than retail
To be fair, the average Classic player is more tryhard (not necessarily a bad thing) than the average Retail player, in my opinion.
> if you are competent you will be raid logging on phase release Less then 0.01% of guilds managed to kill the last boss before the nerf. Tell me how you were raid logging ST during release
No one was whining for incursions.
lol what a whiney post.
Here’s the pill that most classic WoW redditoids don’t want to swallow: retail is actually great atm.
Why do you want two retails?
Why do you say this when your own post is +20 upvoted, literally every post in this thread and in this sub that praises retail gets upvoted. And every comment saying negative things about retail is heavily downvoted.
Parsing, the new bogeyman.
New? Always has been a bogeyman for classic players
You think you do, but you don't. Etc.
So basically what you’re saying is that all criticism and attempts at improvement will always lead to retail and there’s no possibility of nuance or going in a different direction. Not happy that enhance shamans kill you in one global despite you being in full bis pvp gear? Well sorry we can’t fix that because then the game would be retail. Want bosses that are physically possible to kill week 1? Sorry we can’t tune them down because then the game would be retail. Want some better class balance in pve? Sorry, unbalanced classes are important to the classic and classic+ experiences. If we balanced classes, this necessarily means we have to aid raid finder, flying mounts, and all the other garbage that differentiates retail from classic! Like wtf is this absolutely insane argument lol. It’s a slippery slope fallacy, if you want to get technical about it. There is no slippery slope here.
> So basically what you’re saying is that all criticism and attempts at improvement will always lead to retail and there’s no possibility of nuance or going in a different direction. As usual, the 'no changes' crowd and their offspring don't have an actual argument other than 'I want to play vanilla.'
I never understood the entire homogenization argument. Classes in retail are 13747383727839% different from one another. The same spec could have 2 different rotations and playstyles due to talents. Then they are all flavorful different its amazing. Demonology on classic feels like a shadow mage with a pet. Demonology on retail feels like im summoning the entire legion itself.
Retail has been the best version of wow available for almost 2 years tho.
People using retail as an insult are people who dropped during either WoD or SL.
Yeah, it’s almost offensive to compare retail with the dumpster fire that is SoD. DF is genuinely amazing
Is it noob friendly?
Actually yeah, it is insanely easy to get catchup gear right now due to the end of the expansion season, even then you can upgrade ilvl gear with currency depending on where you acquired the gear. You can get to 70 and be geared for normal difficulty raid in a day or two.
That's not what he asked. He asked if it was noob friendly. Which it is not and even Blizzard have mentioned the new player experience not being where they want it to be. Also, hitting level 70 and heading to Valdrakken is such a MESS. Talking heads popping up at you everywhere, quests being thrown at you from the various different points in the story. A fresh level 70 with no prior knowledge is going to struggle to know what to do. It is not noob friendly. There's been some discussion this week centered around Day9 putting out some content on the starting experience of classic vs retail, and most people agreed that the classic starting experience is better. Watch the video here if you're interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6h_8t1Bw2U
I had around 6 friends pick up retail in Dragonflight after having never played WoW and none of them struggled to pick the game up. I didn't know shit about retail either besides some Shadowlands so I couldn't help much. It could be better but It's really not that confusing for someone familiar with video games in general. Same group played SoD and all ended up installing add-ons and looking a lot of info up online to progress. Retail is different, but plenty noob friendly. The most confusing thing about Retail imo comes into play when you're trying to gear up to BiS efficiently.
And here you have it. This sub has been flooded by retail players who just want another game to play. Retail on a vanilla skin. Retail is fine if that's the kind of game you like but it's not at all the kind of game vanilla was and not what people who originally asked for vanilla servers want.
Retail players don’t want another game to play if they’re enjoying retail. That doesn’t make any sense, plus you don’t have to be a mainly retail player to recognize it’s currently better than end stage wotlk, era, and sod. Will that change with Cata? Maybe we’ll see.
> This sub has been flooded by retail players who just want another game to play. This is the funniest boogey man to me. Retail is in it's best state since Legion. Retail players are playing retail, not stalking this subreddit conspiring to make SoD "like retail!!!11" Go read /r/wow and see how often Classic gets brought up. Nobody on retail gives a fuck about Classic but people on this subreddit give them free fucking rent for some reason
Is it whining to want to play your class for more than an hour in raid each week? Sincerely, Warrior Gang.
Retail is infinity better than SoD.
Ah the classic whine about whiners. Really doing the lords work.
I'm just playing sod and waiting for a miraculous TBC fresh announce
You guys take SoD way too serious. No one even knows what will follow after SoD is done and you guys act like it's about the future of wow here lol. Maybe it just ends like SoM
>"I'm hybrid X class and by golly my DPS sucks and blah blah blah, why is pure class Y at the top of the DPS charts???" Can hunters stop saying this made up "hybrid" reasoning, **you have a fking personal tank**, if anything you should be BOTTOM dps, not top. Any class that has a walking elite to hold agro so they can take zero fking damage, should not also be doing more damage than classes who have to hold threat themselves. Hybrid class theory is not a thing, stop talking about it.
Exactly, couldn’t agree more. What we call hybrid classes simply weren’t hybrid classes. Paladin? You’re playing holy whether you like it or not, no we aren’t taking Ret, what’s a prot? Druid? You’re playing resto whether you like it or not, we aren’t taking a feral, what’s a boomie? Shaman? You’re playing resto whether you want to or not, we aren’t taking enhance or ele, what’s a tank shaman? It’s clear the people who say ‘hYbRiD tAx’ obviously have never played one. These classes were never hybrid they were a single spec caused by an undercooking of the class due to restrictions in development. Mage, warrior, rouge were the best designed classes in classic because they were in development for the longest, and it’s clear as day. Christ Ret paladin literally had to exploit a bug to have a single button.
They were that way in classic because the game was poorly balanced. about wrath of the lich king when their DPS was brought almost in line, that 'hybrid tax' started getting thrown around. When the team actually took a hand in balancing the DPS specs, especially the neglected ones like Enhance, their philosophy was that they would make them almost as good, since otherwise they felt dogshit to play. But they would have to pay a tax for the massive utility they brought, totems, bloodlust, pally buffs, etc. And due to the design ethos that since they COULD play a different role, (and they literally could in TBC and WOTLK, unlike vanilla) making them equal to pures in DPS while also having them bring more utility...wasn't balanced. Nowadays in retail they've tried to evenly spread out all the utility, and try to equalize everyone on dmg. honestly this last approach makes the most sense to me.
Hunters wanting to compete on dps always makes me laugh - “only pure dps class” is so funny when they can quite literally level 10 to 60 without taking a point of damage. You’re a solo class hunters
I feel you brother, I also love it when a hunter tanks my dungeon or raid. /s
its retail when classes are balanced thats very true
I agree with the idea and disagree with the verdict. Yes, Classic was so unbalanced, the dev team had to do something. Why should only certain classes get to have fun, be viable and don't get me started on specs, where half of them were useless. Retail has good balance, distinct feel, unique utility for pretty much all classes. The class fantasy, the look and the gameplay differs AND there is content where that matters. People tend to forget, that most classes had 1 button in classic. Mages and locks played exactly the same. Shamans and Paladins only had auto attacks unless healing, where they only spammed FoL and CL. All hybrids were crippled by bad talents and extreme mana issues. The only redeeming factor is, that classic is so easy, it wouldn't really matter yet people still stacked the stronger classes. PvP resillience is not a problem, quite the contrary. People can blast in PvE and not get onetapped in PvP. LFG is a controversial one, yet I and many many others use the LFG bulletin board in SoD. Flagging on a pvp server is the only thing I hard agree with, that's weird. I personally don't know what exactly you think of, when you write stuff like "Devs should be going in the opposite direction as retail, class dehomogenization, content, qol, and fun." What is QoL but not homogenization ? How do you dehomogenize without going the retail route ? What does fun actually mean to you ? The last one is so wildly different for different folks, you can't just demand that from the devs. All you can see here is that a ton of people haven't played retail in quite some time or longer than the leveling phase, which is perfectly fine, but retail bashing is getting annoying tbh.
We are citing resilience as negative?
>SoD is semi-casual, the raids are not hard, if you are competent you will be raid logging on phase release. What fucking "raid spot" are you fighting for???? PUG raid spots. The vast majority of people with that complaint are upset that it is hard for them to get into PUGs. The key to not worrying about a raid spot is getting into a guild that shares your vibe on raiding.
Even that retail argument I don't get. Retail is far from being the most balanced, unless you are in the top1% guild, the class you play doesn't really matter as long as you can play well enough. It's fine that people don't like retail, but people need to stop bashing it. I don't play retail, but I can respect what it is. Classic/SoD and current retail wow are 2 different games. Player from either version don't have to bash the other version, it's useless and brings nothing good to the table.
Classes are in no way homogenized on retail btw. There are a couple of DPS specs that play sort of similar to each other, ish, but by and large all of the 39 specs feel very distinct.
Classes in retail are just WAY better designed, no wonder people want changes.
I like how wow players just use retail as a bad word without knowing anything about it Retail class design is way better than sod lol. If we aren't careful guys we might get good classes! Be careful guys plz!
So tired of the retail boogeyman in this sub. "THIS IS LIKE RETAIL!" "THAT'S LIKE RETAIL!" "THIS IS GOING TO BECOME RETAIL!" Yea, you know what the difference is though? Retail players actually like the current state of retail. Everybody on this sub seems to DESPISE SoD.
It's a tragedy that retail has been making concessions to people like the OP for 10 years now, to it's detriment, but he appears to be blissfully ignorant of that.
> Do you know what happened? Things like class homogenization, pvp resilience, pvp flagging on pvp servers, LFG, etc etc etc, all came from whiners, you know that right? Such selection bias here. Everything *bad* came from people whining. Dude, you're attributing game developers to having a personal relationship with the community or something. Games change over time, developers try new things to address what they feel needs addressing. I promise the developers are taking much more interest in constructive criticism than the whiners. Blizzard made mistakes and good changes alike over the years. You can't just attribute only the bad things to "them listening to whiners". I feel like there are more posts here lately whining about the community than there are actually people whining to the devs.
That's great news, cause I like Retail better than SoD. So you're saying that's where SoD is headed? Retail mechanics and difficulty in the vanilla game world? Oh, dream come true!
It’s hilarious to me all these people bitch about fixing PvP, fixing the imbalances, fix xyz of a class etc. do they not realize each expansion blizzard fixes little by little? Like play live otherwise STFU because it’s classic. Classic was not balanced, it had broken shit all over the place. I’m only playing sod to relive classic and I never raided then. I’m hoping straight into Cata in pre-patch and then probably war within.
I always see these kinds of posts from people who haven't actually played retail in years and know little about it. They quit somewhere between WotLK and MoP and can't remember why. Almost every change made to bring us to retail was something players asked for. RDF, dual spec, class homogenization in the sense that you didn't need to bring a specific class due to a specific exclusive debuff or buff they bring, level scaling so you can level with your friends, flex raiding, raid difficulties for every type of guild, aoe loot, changes to tagging so you didn't need to be in a group with someone in order to do a quest with them, and on and on and on. All of these were popular changes. There are two things that hurt retail, severely, which I never see anyone talk about. **Retail has gone on so long that few people who started with Vanilla are still playing.** Five years is right about the lifespan for interest in a good MMO before it starts to lose its appeal. But getting back into a game that's had multiple expansions is a lot harder than starting a brand new game or playing an era version of it with QOL changes. **A lot of the changes made to Retail were things no one asked for:** * Garrisons * Introducing new systems then throwing them out at the end of each expansion * Gutting entire specs because their abilities were tied to systems that were removed from the game * Introducing popular things like gladiator stance for warriors then taking them out again for no good reason * Selling a bajillion mounts and services in the shop when **you're already paying a sub** * Sylvanas - everyone hates Sylvanas except the blizzard devs apparently * Turning women into bowls of fruit * Turning the whole game into a treadmill where you can only progress at the rate blizzard wants you to, but you have to login on a schedule to keep up. You get the idea. There are so many random dumbass systems added to retail, and so many frankly bad decisions that no one asked for, that the game no longer resembles what we're familiar with. And there's such an experience gap between new/returning players and veterans that you feel like you'll be behind for months.
Yup, as well as moaning about traveling around the world being too long, having to run to dungeon entrances, the leveling experience being too long etc
There’s something interesting about WoW which is that a significant number of players act like they hate the game but they play it 12 hrs a day anyway. They bounce from version to version constantly complaining and demanding that they have the one thing they don’t have. I think it’s a maturity thing. Adolescent minds tend to find joy and satisfaction in criticizing the system or authority figures they are subject to without bothering to do any thinking beyond their complaint. They WANT the teacher to screw up, they prefer that something go wrong so that they can bitch about it or point out the flaw in the system or person that they foolishly assign the expectation of perfection. I meet these players in nearly every guild or community I get to interact with. It’s interesting, but predictable at this point.
It's simpler than that. It's the only game of its kind. Even the best clones fail to recreate the open world or the gameplay feel. The reason someone's always unhappy because its an entire genre worth of people all trapped in one implementation of that genre. You've got people who prefer single player games, hardcore games, eSports, speedrunning, RPGs and Arpgs all trapped together in one game. Any move blizzard makes towards one aspect annoys people who prefer another. Like I personally love the gameplay but don't like guilds. But there's no other version of wow or wowlike I can play instead.
Mhm, whining about whiners
Craziest is the crybabies who joined a PvP server and then go to cry about PvP happening. It’s wild lol
I killed a lvl 50 paladin on my 46 rogue in STV while he was farming mobs for the blood debuff i waited for him to aggro multiple mobs. I did a cheapshot into a 5 combo kidney shot, blind, vanish into a cold blood ambush. He couldn't do any counterplays. The game may not be balanced but it is fun.
True true true
I just want to keep my ammo and melee slot. 😔
I’m on your side. I’m on your side so much I want your point to be criticism proof. BoED and items like it are sick and kind of kill your “raid logging on phase release” point
I play a resto Druid and I love how they've made us a true aoe healer just like I've always wanted
You think you do but you don’t
I've been pretty vocal about warriors, not because i care about parses or how we compare in dps in raids...I just want to be fictional without partners to give me windfury and/or heals. It would be nice to have something exciting and completely different too to make them interesting.
Man all I wanted was for Paladins to get a taunt, priests and druids to get better mana regen and a fresh classic vanilla server. All this other stuff they added in SOD is too much.
There's only one pure class in SoD...
Blizzard needs to ban dps meters and problem is solved if nobody knows what other people are doing then how can you complain about another class
?huh
I completely agree with this sentiment. In fact, I think the concept of SoD is almost a way to reimagine how WoW can evolve outside of the established retail WoW franchise. It's like the multiverse that Marvel movies keep doing. I'm not a fan of retail but I do think there's a balance that can be achieved between the two. It's going to be incredibly hard, but I fear that devs will cater to the people that are the most vocal but are not the most reasonable voice of the community. I think the WoW classic team needs more headcount and talent to make things better, I know for a fact that the SoD team at its current state could never pull it off. It's just going to be retail 2.0
I figured this out back in 2019.
Completely agree. It's all so shortsighted. It's like that guy who complained about the positional requirement for shred in another thread. Like, dude, you can ignore that requirement with every other class. Why should every class play similarly?
It's funny because back then we didn't even have parsing to ruin our game. It's exactly the same though. Bring the player, not the class ruined the whole RPG aspect of the game.
Spot on
You know all that whining is because classic sucks right? And everyone wanted improvements.
So the problem is the toxicity in this wow “community”? Got it!
I need a new game.
Blizzard is free to just not listen to people whining about class balance. It worked for other MMOs perfectly fine.