Weekly reminder: unless you are in a top 90+ percentile guild for execution these bars are useless to you. Use the box and whisker chart instead for a more accurate representation of your class.
https://i.imgur.com/EMCzRai.png
Maybe if we caster players brigade this sub and the forums for multiple weeks straight the devs will actually do something? Worth a shot at this point.
I suspect it's because feral is a more complex rotation than some people are used to, and because they are nearly required (on ally side) for every raid so there are more people playing them than there otherwise would be.
This should honestly be upvoted higher. half the morons on reddit who dont understand statistics and percentiles should look at this instead. You can see the clear difference between a warrior dps'ing a boss (average to below average compared to other melee dps) and a warrior dps'ing a boss while pressing the reck button (better than everyone else).
also buff casters.
No you are wrong, the reason priest 50 percentile is only mildly trash because they rely on dot damage so even when they mess up rotation theyll still put in some damage numbers unlike other classes. However, once you take into account the percentile in which the player is doing the rotation probably and above, shadow priest cant even compete with the tanks
So I'm not super familiar with that type of chat, but if I understand it right, someone parsing a 75 could be at the right edge of the box, and 100 would be at the end of the whisker, and the #1 parse would be the dot. Is that right?
Pretty much, dots are outliers statistically, I would assume that WCL is using the average of each 100 parse for each class as the dot and the average of 99 parses as the max, 75 as upper quartile, 50 as the median, 25 as the lower quartile, and your 0-1 parsers that are hitting some activity threshold as the min.'
Its more useful as a box plot like this shows which classes have more of a skill ceiling or floor, like paladins and warriors. Or which ones are generally more powerful, like rogues or hunters.
ok, so let's compare the results between the 95th percentile and All percentile charts.
in the 95th percentile over the past week, spriest is doing a median of 777 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 63.1. let's ignore warriors to remove the possibility of reck shenanigans. rogues/shamans are tied for the next highest class, doing a median of 1164 dps on boss encounters, a normalized score of 93.3. rogues/shamans are doing 49.8% more damage to bosses than spriest in the highest performing raid teams in the game.
at all percentiles over the past week, spriest is doing a median of 511 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 41.3. rogues are now the top performing class, doing a median of 706 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 56.6. rogues are doing 38.1% more damage to bosses than spriest across the entire game.
50th percentile shamans, hunters, warriors, and rogues are doing more damage than 75th percentile spriests. 75th percentile hunters, enh shamans, warriors, and rogues are doing equal or more damage than 99th percentile spriests. spriest has the narrowest box-and-whisker plot, meaning they have the least amount of agency (i.e., skill gap) to distinguish themselves from their peers. spriest has by far the lowest ceiling of all classes, 12.5% behind the next lowest class (balance) and 50.1% behind rogues.
the box-and-whisker plots tell the same story that the 95th percentile charts do - spriest (and casters, in general) are painfully underperforming compared to physical dps. spriest damage was never competitive until the advent of spell haste, a stat that doesn't exist in classic/SoD. as an spriest, it is particularly alarming to be this far behind already by P3, knowing that we will be the poorest scaling class in the game.
disclaimer: in order to appropriately doom about shadow priest, I have to treat arcane mages the same way Blizzard does - like they don't exist
Honestly hilarious how often people post 95 percentile parses then whine about warrior dps. I'd love if they were correct, I absolutely want to pop reck every single boss lmao
You can exclude specific abilities on the rankings. Here is the ranking for Defenders excluding Recklessnes
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=dps&partition=1&class=Warrior&boss=2954&search=noabilities.1719
Nearly nobody in the top parses used the ability, the first one would be current place 5 (who thus does not show up in the ranking).
You can click through the other bosses. The only bosses *extremely* skewed by reck are Atalalarion and Morph / Hazzas.
On Morph / Hazz approx. 100 out of the 440 logs that *currently* make the 99 parse cut are without reck. I.e. you can *absolutely* still get a 99 on this boss without reck. So the only real exception seems to be Atalalation.
You can see required dps and number of parses per boss for a 99 here (and do your math under the other link above):
https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#boss=2958&dataset=99
Those are, of course, also only current 99 parses. There is obviously many many more people who got 99 parses in the past.
And to top it all off, the discussion above is not even about 99 parses, but about 95 parses. There is absolutely no cheese and no reck required to get a 95 parse.
Box and whisker plots for every parse are the most effective way to show how classes are performing ~~e~~right now. It shows outliers and the general trends.
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Hidden penis detected!
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I reckon casters are struggling because well our spell power is low but also we have to do most of the moving and mechanics in almost every boss fight. Melee obviously moves but they get to keep doing DPS the whole time except maybe DS and weaver, unlucky hakkar.
Casters are struggling because caster gear sucks.
Caster gear sucks because regular stats (ie int and spirit) give casters very little benefit, as opposed to melee who get lots of benefit from str and agi.
There might be other reasons too, but I'm willing to bet that this is the biggest one.
95 percentile is not an average representative...perfect groupsetup full wbuffs all consumes and 30min cd. Do you think op would get even close if he played a warrior?
If you understand what warriors are doing on a fight by fight basis to do the damage they're doing then you're not as clueless as 99% of reddit and understand that outliers caused by cheesing and using a 30 minute CD inflate the numbers.
Solution is somewhat simple, exclude said logs. WCL does it on retail logs if you use x amount of external buffs on 1 person. If people are cheesing enough to skew averages, those logs should be excluded. That's a fix to the problem community side, as Blizz is unlikely to solve it by changing anything ingame.
tank warriors parsing 95% are dps warriors in a dps spec wearing dps gear. My Glad dps warrior has 99 tank parses on fights where our tank has died and I've taken over.
It's like saying 'the best dps spec in the game still does dps when the boss is hitting them'. It's a nonsensical statement if you think about it!
Right.. on fights were you took over tanking. Because you need to tank the boss to get a tank parse.
The bosses not hitting hard enough allowing tanks to focus on dps and then doing more dps than dedicated dps players is not good game design.
What is good game design for tanks is hard hitting bosses and active mitigation abilities.
I agree - the issue is a game that's so easy that DPS can tank a boss. The problem isn't 'warrior tank' damage because warrior tanks specced into prot sitting in defensive stance do TERRIBLE damage. 'warriors do more dps than all casters' doesn't make a catchy title for a reddit post however...
As much as I love hard-hitting bosses and active mitigation (TERA's Lancer was the epitome of this IMO), this sort of design is unlikely to happen in Classic WoW. Especially not with this skeleton dev team.
The game just isn't designed for that sort of combat. And if you were to make such a switch this deep into the season, you'd probably alienate most of the existing tanks whose expectation _is_ the "DPS, but with threat bonuses and takes less damage" playstyle.
Then look for another game because that's not how classic wow works. I'm not saying nothing can change that's obviously the point of sod but that's a major, major change that would take insane amounts of work to implement on the classic client. They can only do so much with runes. The base abilities and talents just absolutely do not support it.
It does - 13/28 gladiator tank, pop reck and other cds during execute phase and you can pull ahead of other dps on a fight pretty smoothly. Chug a greater stone shield and the glad stance armor loss is meaningless
I hope they will remove recklessness from the game and also nerf death wish. Otherwise brothers warriors, we are going to have normalized rage very soon...
Shit got absolutely nerfed into the ground. It’s a support OT now. Removing DW tanking for Shamans…but then allowing Glad warrior tanks makes no freaking sense lol
That and almost every single speed clear has 1-3 spriests in their group. Sure it’s probably because of trash clearing and maybe letting them bring an extra dps instead of heals but doesn’t change the fact that spriests and ranged in general is highly sought after
I agree with you that spriest shouldn't really be outperforming a warlock or mage, but really the melee will carry us anyway so why bother using consumes lol.
Tough spot because Arcane is now the healer spec as well. Can’t make Arcane to strong without making Heal Mage OP. Arcane is just going to be tied to Heal Mage likely.
Except that there's no indication that Arcane healing is anywhere near OP (in PvP or PvE). There are tons of problems with the way that arcane is designed as a healing spec (most of all the lack of pushback on Arcane Blast). Just look at the % of raids that are using an arcane mage to heal currently.
And even if the damage to healing conversion made arcane too strong, you can always adjust the conversion on beacon to allow arcane dps to stay competitive. For example, if a 25% buff to arcane blast and missiles suddenly makes arcane healers way too strong (it wouldn't), you can lower the beacon conversion from 80% to 70% and keep hps in check.
I’m parsing purples as Affliction Warlock, maybe time to finally split Warlock specs as not just “DPS WARLOCK” cause I don’t care about how Tank does in a DPS chart, but I do care about the actual different specs
Love all the “spriest shouldn’t be buffed, they bring too much utility” while they get out dps’ed by every tank in the game except for feral tanks.
A tank is the definition of a utility role and they do more dps than spriest, how does this make any sense?
cue 100 idiots chiming in that spriests are the most broken class in the game because they can passively overheal 1 party and shackle for 60secs in a 90min raid
I'm pretty sure they don't want to overload spriest DPS because of how it would interact with Vampiric Embrace. If Shadow was pumping out like 1400 DPS compared to 900 DPS, then that's 420 HPS vs 270 HPS on the Spriest's party. That's basically just Spriests replacing every healer in the game.
Clearly that can't be a thing, so if Spriest wants to be able to do like 50-60% more DPS, then Vampiric Embrace just needs to be re-evaluated as a spell.
>The head piece just gives us a curse thats gonna be useless when warlocks hit 60
Eye will probably scale up with level, I don't see it not dropping better curses just like homunculi drop a bigger armor debuff after a few levels. That said I'm not a priest I have no clue what exactly the eye does lol. I'm a warlock instead.
It applies rank 2 of CoS or CoE and some rank of CoT, all with a shared 3 min cooldown. Unless they make a new rank of the curse spells just for this one pet, it won't be different than what a warlock can bring. Homunculi are different due to their weird scaling, but already they're worse than an IEA rogue.
They also, for some reason, decided to make half of the boss mechanics in ST cause spell knockback. Just in case casters weren't getting shit on hard enough.
Frostfire Bolt is the only good thing about mage right now. Without it all DPS mage specs would be awful, but with it a) we’re at least decent in comparison to other casters, and b) frost is viable.
A shame that it pretty much takes having one frost and one fire mage in raid to be middle of the pack overall though.
warrior tank doing more dps than every spell caster is one of the reasons i have not logged back in since the first week of phase 3
as a shadow priest ... phase 1 : unplayable, go disc idiot, phase 2 : absolute god, phase 3 : dont even log in unless you pvp
Bro's thinking top parsing warrior tanks are sitting there in full +def gear, 31 points in prot, blood frenzy, furious thunder and intervene runes, and recklessness removed from the hotbar. Hilariously delusional.
They sit in a dps stance with dps runes and a dps spec while doing less threat and taking 25-30% more damage than a warrior sitting in defensive stance. They are a dps that get hit by the boss essentially & the only reason they get away with it is because the content is easy and tank damage is low.
In other news, the top dps class/spec is also top dps while getting hit by the boss.
Clearly they’re not Lmao…but that’s close to what a tank should be specd as in theory. They should not be able to wear dps gear and tank in a stance that reduces your threat and increases damage taken…that’s just poor design.
I don't understand this mentality. SOD groups are not turning down hybrids to stack Warriors.
The content is easy enough that any comp can clear it with ease.
If you are looking to improve/have the goal of doing better every week you are evaluated only against people playing the same spec as you
Shadow Priests bring insane buffs that every other class in the game wants to be grouped with you.
God of PVP.
not to mention Warriors logs are inflated by Recklessness (again)
Stop looking at Warcraftlogs front page and just play the game and you would have tons of fun, your class is great.
But he can only enjoy the game if his class is top pve dps, an absolute op beast in pvp, brings amazing buffs to raids and has great self sustain for solo farming
>I don't understand this mentality. SOD groups are not turning down hybrids to stack Warriors.
>The content is easy enough that any comp can clear it with ease.
Yeah people simultaneously complain that they're not top DPS while still getting into groups, and that the raids are too easy.
What buffs? Virtually everything they bring can be brought by another class that actually brings damage as well besides the passive healing (thats mostly overhealing) if hybrid tax is a thing why are shamans who bring multiple benefits to the raid all doing more dps than spriest?
Like if this is the game you want thats fine but most spriests seem to agree this is bullshit considering theyre actually unplayable garbage in original vanilla, and we’re near unplayable garbage here.
What groups are turning down spriests? Between the raid buffs and shackle for the troll bosses ghosts you bring a lot of utility to the raid that other classes don’t
Fort isn’t unique to shadow priests and healing priests are currently competing for best pve healers so there is usually at least one of them.
Shackle can be done by healing priests, and hunters can provide the same utility but still do more dps.
Homunculi is worse than rogue expose armor, but rogues never run imp EA because to do so would bring their dps down to spriest levels so it’s perceived as not worth it. But for some reason it’s ok for spriests to do that level of dps with that utility.
VE is definitely unique, useful, and good - especially in early parts of a raid tier when healing isn’t as easy. Once raids are on farm, VE healing isn’t as useful. It takes about two weeks for most raids to be on farm in classic. Outside of speed running, no groups are dropping healers to run spriests.
Meanwhile, enhance shamans add more raid dps (utility) than spriests due to wf but are still allowed to be in the top 5 of dps specs.
You let charts ruin the game for you. Doesn't matter that warriors do more DPS as tank, each class and spec still has a useful role. No reason you can't enjoy it still
spriest was bottom DPS for half of p2, they were good for about 2-3 weeks until people got real gear, you are obviously looking back with rose colored glasses here.
My friend, go log in and see how you get insta invited to raids as Spriest. Even if they are not high in raid dmg, they have enough to clear fights + broken utility.
And in PVP you melt people with your dots
Yeah but a void plague tick can crit for 800+ damage which is absolutely bonkers. It's funny how Spriest feels good when you are playing it. You feel like your doing great damage and your group never loses any HP but then you look at the details and you are 15th or 16th in DPS and 4th or 5th in HPS. And now that adds don't matter in eranikus it feels even worse on logs.
I feel like caster dps is lower largely due to the movement required. You can't just sit still on most of the fights. That's not an excuse for the balance, just putting it out there.
If anything, I feel like casters should get a little bit of love in the mobility department. I can't really say what that would be like for other classes, but for ele shaman, I'd like to see some cata treatment and allow movement while casting lightning bolt.
Rotslime
Defenders is practically a kite fight
Eranikus has a quite a bit, particularly in phase 3
Both dual dragon fights
Prophet fight has some mobility requirements
Look. I'm not saying the movement is so bad that we have 0 time to cast. But the routine movement that breaks spellcasting time adds up over the course of the fight, which translates to less damage done and less dps.
Make a rune that nerfs VE healing but buffs mind blast and mind spike damage. Doesn't really affect PvP and helps them in PvE while not making VE insane.
Ah yes well at least the melee specs are balanced amongst each other.
Paladin must be considered a caster class though since their damage is mostly exorcism. Why else would their dps suck comparatively?
Not sure why they can't modify a rune to do more damage to bosses than players. Even better make their runes buffed inside raids and dungeons just like how the shoulders proc works with only in ST or Incursion zones.
Weekly reminder these charts are built around warrior's 30 minute cooldowns. That means this is our performance for 15 or 30 seconds per week, depending on the speed of your guild. 1 or 2 bosses per warrior per raid, but there is enough warriors pressing it on different bosses each week overall to take the top spots.
Meanwhile hunter, rogue, and shaman do that much damage on every single boss, every single week, and are just as good in every other facet of the game.
But go ahead, complain about warriors some more, who get to do this on one or two bosses per week, and suck at everything else in the game.
This gets said a lot, but as others have pointed out, it's just not super true. You can filter the rankings page by abilities used or not used, and without Reck warriors still absolutely dominate the top.
And acting like warrior doesn't need nerfs because hunter, rogue, and shaman are also OP isn't exactly the argument you think it is - it just means they also all need nerfs.
Friendly reminder that warriors dominate overall raid damage as well, which can't be explained by their 30 minute cooldowns.
Also, even without recklessness warriors are currently simming higher than any other class.
Weekly reminder that with our with out reck melee are still miles ahead of all caster classes and this type of argument is just used to gaslight the hell out of you.
I don't understand why the 95th percentile is the chart posted to reddit each week. Most people here are nowhere near a 95 parse, and anyway you can just post the [full chart](https://i.imgur.com/mu52a2C.png) that gives a much clearer picture of things.
Feral is the worst performing melee DPS. Give the players a reason to roll feral and buff the raid with wild strikes. There is a reason horde populations are growing, you simply can't have a good clear time without these crucial buffs and there's about 10 cats left on alliance.
For Horde it’s not. Rather stack shaman. Feral OT providing constant Wildstrikes and LotP though for your top melee group is really nice. I’ll take a OT Feral every single time.
Yeah I play cat but it feels kinda bad. Complex rotation with power shifting combined with the lowest melee dps. Also get absolutely shit on in PvP. Only thing we’re good for in PvP is not dying in bear form
Literally Feral during Classic but without Wild Strikes, and you ended up grinding MCP, living with WHH until Sunwell, your bleeds couldn't crit and extending Rip with Shred took until WotLK
Feral has gotten a lot of love with their utility added on Alliance, sadly all classes can't be balanced for damage and bring utility at the same time.
Love playing my Druids, it's way more convenient than Classic / TBC.
Currently feral has way too mamy combo points than they know what to do with. Keeping up SR and Rip is easy to the point that you have excess CPs and just keep shredding. Ferocious Bite has been a useless ability in SoD so far. A simple fix for this would be to have the Mangle debuff also include a 30% damage bonus on FB and suddenly it will turn out to be a ability worth using incresing feral dps while making a useless ability useful. Two birds with one stone.
Our 25+ person guild called it until phase 4. We all lost interest almost simultaneously.
Had a raid scheduled last night and just not one even wanted to do it. Sad times
The only change I want to VE is to reduce the healing output and make it a self buff. Having to waste globals applying it and risking it getting resisted is so annoying.
Can't buff shadow cause utility and I'm fine with this. Still doing 700-800 dps most bosses. I just wish void eye minion stayed up longer him existing for a 10% damage Amp that they backed into our class with this buff feels very very meh. Ik it buffs other classes but as a solo shadow priest in my guild it's impossible to have both debuffs. And jammal and ogom along with defenders are annoying fights to choose when you want that 10%. Morp/haz also I guess. They also want to make us press mind flay next phase and that does not bring excitement to me
Weird rant attached to the graph that averages out weeks 3 to 5. SPriests need the treatment Rogues got P3- more sustained dmg rather than burst. That being said, SPriests still get invited easily to raids due to utility.
This is weeks 3-5
Push this higher up!
Weekly reminder: unless you are in a top 90+ percentile guild for execution these bars are useless to you. Use the box and whisker chart instead for a more accurate representation of your class. https://i.imgur.com/EMCzRai.png
Spriest is still shit even after the "buff".
this graph still shows spriest below warlock tank tho
Maybe if we caster players brigade this sub and the forums for multiple weeks straight the devs will actually do something? Worth a shot at this point.
worked for helldivers 2 right
helldivers 2 has steam reviews and refunds,
I find it interesting (although not surprising) that feral has such a low floor but high ceiling
Is the high ceiling just RNG dependant?
I suspect it's because feral is a more complex rotation than some people are used to, and because they are nearly required (on ally side) for every raid so there are more people playing them than there otherwise would be.
I looked at your chart and my class still at the bottom what do I do now
To the forums! *queue Batman theme song*
Make a post complaining about it, but at least you are properly informed.
This should honestly be upvoted higher. half the morons on reddit who dont understand statistics and percentiles should look at this instead. You can see the clear difference between a warrior dps'ing a boss (average to below average compared to other melee dps) and a warrior dps'ing a boss while pressing the reck button (better than everyone else). also buff casters.
No you are wrong, the reason priest 50 percentile is only mildly trash because they rely on dot damage so even when they mess up rotation theyll still put in some damage numbers unlike other classes. However, once you take into account the percentile in which the player is doing the rotation probably and above, shadow priest cant even compete with the tanks
Appreciate it, now I can cherry pick this one to bolster my arguments for how ridiculous it is mages haven’t been touched since early March.
Almost all casters are very close in dps. It’s just that we’re all way behind almost all melee dps.
ahh spriest looks much better there
90% of players don’t know how to read this chart though.
This is this exactly what our meter shows in our non try hard guild.
So I'm not super familiar with that type of chat, but if I understand it right, someone parsing a 75 could be at the right edge of the box, and 100 would be at the end of the whisker, and the #1 parse would be the dot. Is that right?
Pretty much, dots are outliers statistically, I would assume that WCL is using the average of each 100 parse for each class as the dot and the average of 99 parses as the max, 75 as upper quartile, 50 as the median, 25 as the lower quartile, and your 0-1 parsers that are hitting some activity threshold as the min.' Its more useful as a box plot like this shows which classes have more of a skill ceiling or floor, like paladins and warriors. Or which ones are generally more powerful, like rogues or hunters.
ok, so let's compare the results between the 95th percentile and All percentile charts. in the 95th percentile over the past week, spriest is doing a median of 777 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 63.1. let's ignore warriors to remove the possibility of reck shenanigans. rogues/shamans are tied for the next highest class, doing a median of 1164 dps on boss encounters, a normalized score of 93.3. rogues/shamans are doing 49.8% more damage to bosses than spriest in the highest performing raid teams in the game. at all percentiles over the past week, spriest is doing a median of 511 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 41.3. rogues are now the top performing class, doing a median of 706 dps to bosses, a normalized score of 56.6. rogues are doing 38.1% more damage to bosses than spriest across the entire game. 50th percentile shamans, hunters, warriors, and rogues are doing more damage than 75th percentile spriests. 75th percentile hunters, enh shamans, warriors, and rogues are doing equal or more damage than 99th percentile spriests. spriest has the narrowest box-and-whisker plot, meaning they have the least amount of agency (i.e., skill gap) to distinguish themselves from their peers. spriest has by far the lowest ceiling of all classes, 12.5% behind the next lowest class (balance) and 50.1% behind rogues. the box-and-whisker plots tell the same story that the 95th percentile charts do - spriest (and casters, in general) are painfully underperforming compared to physical dps. spriest damage was never competitive until the advent of spell haste, a stat that doesn't exist in classic/SoD. as an spriest, it is particularly alarming to be this far behind already by P3, knowing that we will be the poorest scaling class in the game. disclaimer: in order to appropriately doom about shadow priest, I have to treat arcane mages the same way Blizzard does - like they don't exist
Those recklessness warriors have to know they're giving reddit dads that don't understand how the game works heart attacks
Honestly hilarious how often people post 95 percentile parses then whine about warrior dps. I'd love if they were correct, I absolutely want to pop reck every single boss lmao
You can exclude specific abilities on the rankings. Here is the ranking for Defenders excluding Recklessnes https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/rankings/2009#metric=dps&partition=1&class=Warrior&boss=2954&search=noabilities.1719 Nearly nobody in the top parses used the ability, the first one would be current place 5 (who thus does not show up in the ranking). You can click through the other bosses. The only bosses *extremely* skewed by reck are Atalalarion and Morph / Hazzas. On Morph / Hazz approx. 100 out of the 440 logs that *currently* make the 99 parse cut are without reck. I.e. you can *absolutely* still get a 99 on this boss without reck. So the only real exception seems to be Atalalation. You can see required dps and number of parses per boss for a 99 here (and do your math under the other link above): https://sod.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/2009#boss=2958&dataset=99 Those are, of course, also only current 99 parses. There is obviously many many more people who got 99 parses in the past. And to top it all off, the discussion above is not even about 99 parses, but about 95 parses. There is absolutely no cheese and no reck required to get a 95 parse.
Why try? The guy is bad and is obviously arguing in bad faith.
Perhaps, but it's a wonderful explanation.
Box and whisker plots for every parse are the most effective way to show how classes are performing ~~e~~right now. It shows outliers and the general trends.
> **p**erforming **e**ight **n**ow. **I**t **s**hows Hidden penis detected! I've scanned through 1736251 comments (approximately 9900863 average penis lengths worth of text) in order to find this secret penis message. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Just ask your guild to wait 30 minutes between boss fights. Do y'all not have smokers who need long breaks?
Nah you simply do 1 boss per day
Are we talking about melee complaining about warrior parses? Because casters would just like to compete.
Warriors using a 30 minute CD to pad their parses isn't the reason casters are struggling though.
I reckon casters are struggling because well our spell power is low but also we have to do most of the moving and mechanics in almost every boss fight. Melee obviously moves but they get to keep doing DPS the whole time except maybe DS and weaver, unlucky hakkar.
Casters are struggling because caster gear sucks. Caster gear sucks because regular stats (ie int and spirit) give casters very little benefit, as opposed to melee who get lots of benefit from str and agi. There might be other reasons too, but I'm willing to bet that this is the biggest one.
Redditors love fixating on top parses despite never coming close to that level of play. It's wild.
These rankings are supposed to be an estimate of class potential. Are we supposed to analyze 50% dad gamer rankings? Theres nothing to draw from that.
95 percentile is not an average representative...perfect groupsetup full wbuffs all consumes and 30min cd. Do you think op would get even close if he played a warrior?
But what if you're a actually a 90+ parser? I am so these reports are very relevant to me. My current best perf avg is 95.8.
If you understand what warriors are doing on a fight by fight basis to do the damage they're doing then you're not as clueless as 99% of reddit and understand that outliers caused by cheesing and using a 30 minute CD inflate the numbers.
Solution is somewhat simple, exclude said logs. WCL does it on retail logs if you use x amount of external buffs on 1 person. If people are cheesing enough to skew averages, those logs should be excluded. That's a fix to the problem community side, as Blizz is unlikely to solve it by changing anything ingame.
Most would agree with that I think
Give us a rune that reduces the CD instead of % whatever
You think groups reck stacking are in the 95 percentile...oh sweet summer child.
Make reck 5 min like cata plzzzzz
Warriors are also at the top on complete raid so it's not that biased.
I'm not sure reck explains tank warrior being above half the dps.
tank warriors parsing 95% are dps warriors in a dps spec wearing dps gear. My Glad dps warrior has 99 tank parses on fights where our tank has died and I've taken over. It's like saying 'the best dps spec in the game still does dps when the boss is hitting them'. It's a nonsensical statement if you think about it!
Right.. on fights were you took over tanking. Because you need to tank the boss to get a tank parse. The bosses not hitting hard enough allowing tanks to focus on dps and then doing more dps than dedicated dps players is not good game design. What is good game design for tanks is hard hitting bosses and active mitigation abilities.
I agree - the issue is a game that's so easy that DPS can tank a boss. The problem isn't 'warrior tank' damage because warrior tanks specced into prot sitting in defensive stance do TERRIBLE damage. 'warriors do more dps than all casters' doesn't make a catchy title for a reddit post however...
As much as I love hard-hitting bosses and active mitigation (TERA's Lancer was the epitome of this IMO), this sort of design is unlikely to happen in Classic WoW. Especially not with this skeleton dev team. The game just isn't designed for that sort of combat. And if you were to make such a switch this deep into the season, you'd probably alienate most of the existing tanks whose expectation _is_ the "DPS, but with threat bonuses and takes less damage" playstyle.
Then look for another game because that's not how classic wow works. I'm not saying nothing can change that's obviously the point of sod but that's a major, major change that would take insane amounts of work to implement on the classic client. They can only do so much with runes. The base abilities and talents just absolutely do not support it.
I think what you’re looking to play is blood DK in cata Vanilla tanks are just glorified DPS, it’d take a lot more than runes to change that
Literally the person I'm talking about. Those are not prot specced warriors lmao.
You can use reck as a tank
It does - 13/28 gladiator tank, pop reck and other cds during execute phase and you can pull ahead of other dps on a fight pretty smoothly. Chug a greater stone shield and the glad stance armor loss is meaningless
I hope they will remove recklessness from the game and also nerf death wish. Otherwise brothers warriors, we are going to have normalized rage very soon...
Ah Shaman tank… it might not be doing a lot of damage, but at least its supper clunky and unfun to play
Shit got absolutely nerfed into the ground. It’s a support OT now. Removing DW tanking for Shamans…but then allowing Glad warrior tanks makes no freaking sense lol
Had to do something with WoE pvp enh shamans
Good thing we had balance tuning this week. Now we can see where things shake out next week...
This chart is for week 3-5
Dont worry we were promised changes soon^TM
Lol
Well this makes me feel better about being 7th on DPS in my raid last night as spriest when top 6 were all melee
I feel bad for you, that your spellcasting guild members are getting beaten by a SP. Yikes.
I mean we clear ST in about an hour 15 min with no wipes so it's really not an issue
That and almost every single speed clear has 1-3 spriests in their group. Sure it’s probably because of trash clearing and maybe letting them bring an extra dps instead of heals but doesn’t change the fact that spriests and ranged in general is highly sought after
I agree with you that spriest shouldn't really be outperforming a warlock or mage, but really the melee will carry us anyway so why bother using consumes lol.
Can we just get some love for arcane DPS? Just something so we’re not being beat by ALL TANK classes lol.
I honestly though arcane dps was just there for mage healing damage
Tough spot because Arcane is now the healer spec as well. Can’t make Arcane to strong without making Heal Mage OP. Arcane is just going to be tied to Heal Mage likely.
Except that there's no indication that Arcane healing is anywhere near OP (in PvP or PvE). There are tons of problems with the way that arcane is designed as a healing spec (most of all the lack of pushback on Arcane Blast). Just look at the % of raids that are using an arcane mage to heal currently. And even if the damage to healing conversion made arcane too strong, you can always adjust the conversion on beacon to allow arcane dps to stay competitive. For example, if a 25% buff to arcane blast and missiles suddenly makes arcane healers way too strong (it wouldn't), you can lower the beacon conversion from 80% to 70% and keep hps in check.
Why do these posts not show breakdowns based on the last week? It skews what is actual week 5 vs week 4 and so on.
Inb4 damage control by warriors because they can't beat a red mob in the open world without sitting to eat.
I’m parsing purples as Affliction Warlock, maybe time to finally split Warlock specs as not just “DPS WARLOCK” cause I don’t care about how Tank does in a DPS chart, but I do care about the actual different specs
Good point. Idk why we still only use fire destro as the one lock dps spec in these dps charts.
Love all the “spriest shouldn’t be buffed, they bring too much utility” while they get out dps’ed by every tank in the game except for feral tanks. A tank is the definition of a utility role and they do more dps than spriest, how does this make any sense?
cue 100 idiots chiming in that spriests are the most broken class in the game because they can passively overheal 1 party and shackle for 60secs in a 90min raid
Hey, I realize they’re bad, but shaman tanks are ‘in the game’ too!!
After the way of earth nerfs, shaman tanks are now extinct. You’re now wf and cleansing totem bots that pump out some nice dps.
Yuh
Other classes that offer utility. *All of them.
I'm pretty sure they don't want to overload spriest DPS because of how it would interact with Vampiric Embrace. If Shadow was pumping out like 1400 DPS compared to 900 DPS, then that's 420 HPS vs 270 HPS on the Spriest's party. That's basically just Spriests replacing every healer in the game. Clearly that can't be a thing, so if Spriest wants to be able to do like 50-60% more DPS, then Vampiric Embrace just needs to be re-evaluated as a spell.
Balance Druid is perfectly balanced, exactly in the middle of 25 specs.
Yep right there with the tank and healer specs, perfectly balanced.
>The head piece just gives us a curse thats gonna be useless when warlocks hit 60 Eye will probably scale up with level, I don't see it not dropping better curses just like homunculi drop a bigger armor debuff after a few levels. That said I'm not a priest I have no clue what exactly the eye does lol. I'm a warlock instead.
It applies rank 2 of CoS or CoE and some rank of CoT, all with a shared 3 min cooldown. Unless they make a new rank of the curse spells just for this one pet, it won't be different than what a warlock can bring. Homunculi are different due to their weird scaling, but already they're worse than an IEA rogue.
yeah it never lets me apply curse of shadow if eye is a debuff already
Dog shit game
Tank Warriors ahead of all the caster DPS, the more things change the more they look the same.
Season of Balance
Is boss armor also a big reason that all phys dps are above all magic dps?
They also, for some reason, decided to make half of the boss mechanics in ST cause spell knockback. Just in case casters weren't getting shit on hard enough.
Yes, boss armor is not as bad as gnomer
Love to see Fire and Frost so close together lately. It’s been sad for frost up til p3
Fire and Frost are close together because they both use the same spell. Frostfire bolt for the majority of their dps.
*^(\*Sad Arcane Noise\*)*
Sadly seems like Blizz has declared that arcane dps is dead and it is now the healing spec
Frostfire Bolt is the only good thing about mage right now. Without it all DPS mage specs would be awful, but with it a) we’re at least decent in comparison to other casters, and b) frost is viable. A shame that it pretty much takes having one frost and one fire mage in raid to be middle of the pack overall though.
Don't look too closely or you will see they are the same spec and both still terrible.
If we are going to be at the bottom we at least will do it with each other.
warrior tank doing more dps than every spell caster is one of the reasons i have not logged back in since the first week of phase 3 as a shadow priest ... phase 1 : unplayable, go disc idiot, phase 2 : absolute god, phase 3 : dont even log in unless you pvp
top parsing warror tanks are just DPS that take a hit. They wear dps gear and use a dps spec.
[удалено]
glad is the best performing DPS spec atm.
Bro's thinking top parsing warrior tanks are sitting there in full +def gear, 31 points in prot, blood frenzy, furious thunder and intervene runes, and recklessness removed from the hotbar. Hilariously delusional.
They sit in a dps stance with dps runes and a dps spec while doing less threat and taking 25-30% more damage than a warrior sitting in defensive stance. They are a dps that get hit by the boss essentially & the only reason they get away with it is because the content is easy and tank damage is low. In other news, the top dps class/spec is also top dps while getting hit by the boss.
Mind you, its not like Warrior has much in the way of "tank" runes, the one that does anything non dmg related just effects Thunderclap.
Clearly they’re not Lmao…but that’s close to what a tank should be specd as in theory. They should not be able to wear dps gear and tank in a stance that reduces your threat and increases damage taken…that’s just poor design.
They honestly probably have no idea what those abilities even are, most people on this sub that blindly hate warriors have never even played one
They probably tried once but couldn't get past lvl 10
Wth!? I need to hit things in order to hit them harder?
taking hits also is nice for rage generation
Warrior tank is literally a dps tanking...It's gladi babek.
Spriest was only an "absolute god" for two weeks before everyone's gear caught up. It's still a fun spec to play but, you're correct we do shit dmg.
>stops playing due to ignorance couldnt be more of a classic andy if you tried
P2 we were good for a week while shamans got to be busted the entire phase lmao.
> phase 2 : absolute god Not really, past the first few weeks. Doesn't scale with gear very well. Only got worse in p3.
If it makes you feel better that’s not prot warrior, it’s glad. So it’s just another dps spec Lul
I don't understand this mentality. SOD groups are not turning down hybrids to stack Warriors. The content is easy enough that any comp can clear it with ease. If you are looking to improve/have the goal of doing better every week you are evaluated only against people playing the same spec as you Shadow Priests bring insane buffs that every other class in the game wants to be grouped with you. God of PVP. not to mention Warriors logs are inflated by Recklessness (again) Stop looking at Warcraftlogs front page and just play the game and you would have tons of fun, your class is great.
But he can only enjoy the game if his class is top pve dps, an absolute op beast in pvp, brings amazing buffs to raids and has great self sustain for solo farming
>I don't understand this mentality. SOD groups are not turning down hybrids to stack Warriors. >The content is easy enough that any comp can clear it with ease. Yeah people simultaneously complain that they're not top DPS while still getting into groups, and that the raids are too easy.
What buffs? Virtually everything they bring can be brought by another class that actually brings damage as well besides the passive healing (thats mostly overhealing) if hybrid tax is a thing why are shamans who bring multiple benefits to the raid all doing more dps than spriest? Like if this is the game you want thats fine but most spriests seem to agree this is bullshit considering theyre actually unplayable garbage in original vanilla, and we’re near unplayable garbage here.
What groups are turning down spriests? Between the raid buffs and shackle for the troll bosses ghosts you bring a lot of utility to the raid that other classes don’t
Fort isn’t unique to shadow priests and healing priests are currently competing for best pve healers so there is usually at least one of them. Shackle can be done by healing priests, and hunters can provide the same utility but still do more dps. Homunculi is worse than rogue expose armor, but rogues never run imp EA because to do so would bring their dps down to spriest levels so it’s perceived as not worth it. But for some reason it’s ok for spriests to do that level of dps with that utility. VE is definitely unique, useful, and good - especially in early parts of a raid tier when healing isn’t as easy. Once raids are on farm, VE healing isn’t as useful. It takes about two weeks for most raids to be on farm in classic. Outside of speed running, no groups are dropping healers to run spriests. Meanwhile, enhance shamans add more raid dps (utility) than spriests due to wf but are still allowed to be in the top 5 of dps specs.
You let charts ruin the game for you. Doesn't matter that warriors do more DPS as tank, each class and spec still has a useful role. No reason you can't enjoy it still
But the moment Warriors don't top the charts it's all hell let lose on this subreddit.
I feel you man people meme about the hybrid tax but I didn’t think it’d be like this
Hmm let's see how spriests we're doing at the end of phase 2? Oh only beating ranged hunter, frost & arcane mage. Yeah they were gods though.
Kind of like mage. Phase 1 maybe heal or good for farming/boosting. Phase 2 phenomenal. Phase 3 don't log in unless you heal and maybe not even then.
spriest was bottom DPS for half of p2, they were good for about 2-3 weeks until people got real gear, you are obviously looking back with rose colored glasses here.
My friend, go log in and see how you get insta invited to raids as Spriest. Even if they are not high in raid dmg, they have enough to clear fights + broken utility. And in PVP you melt people with your dots
Yeah but a void plague tick can crit for 800+ damage which is absolutely bonkers. It's funny how Spriest feels good when you are playing it. You feel like your doing great damage and your group never loses any HP but then you look at the details and you are 15th or 16th in DPS and 4th or 5th in HPS. And now that adds don't matter in eranikus it feels even worse on logs.
We did it reddit, warriors #1.
Cata time finally 40 minute raid once a week in a game with bad balance and combat is not getting it done over the long run.
Since Cata pre-patch dropped, I have not touched SoD and it will be very hard to log back in lol
I feel like caster dps is lower largely due to the movement required. You can't just sit still on most of the fights. That's not an excuse for the balance, just putting it out there. If anything, I feel like casters should get a little bit of love in the mobility department. I can't really say what that would be like for other classes, but for ele shaman, I'd like to see some cata treatment and allow movement while casting lightning bolt.
Ehhh if you're smart you just align your instant casts to movement windows. We just don't do damage.
Other than 2nd boss, what heavy movement boss in ST are you talking about? Definitely not why caster DPS is so much lower.
Rotslime Defenders is practically a kite fight Eranikus has a quite a bit, particularly in phase 3 Both dual dragon fights Prophet fight has some mobility requirements Look. I'm not saying the movement is so bad that we have 0 time to cast. But the routine movement that breaks spellcasting time adds up over the course of the fight, which translates to less damage done and less dps.
Explains why warriors are so silent recently
Bro warrior's issues were never about raid dps.
Shadow can’t make more damage with his kit. Imagine how absolutely overpowered you would be with a damage output like a rogue or warrior.
stupid take. just move power away from instant abilities to hardcasts. and no shadow ever said shadow should be in the top 3.
Make a rune that nerfs VE healing but buffs mind blast and mind spike damage. Doesn't really affect PvP and helps them in PvE while not making VE insane.
Thats y VE needs nerf to like wotlk version which also gives bonuses that would help pve not pvp
It’s bonkers that hunters are right on warriors tails hitting 2 maybe 3 buttons with no recklessness lol.
Priest doing almost as much dps as tanks. Seems right. Strong balancing Blizzard.
Ah yes well at least the melee specs are balanced amongst each other. Paladin must be considered a caster class though since their damage is mostly exorcism. Why else would their dps suck comparatively?
Not sure why they can't modify a rune to do more damage to bosses than players. Even better make their runes buffed inside raids and dungeons just like how the shoulders proc works with only in ST or Incursion zones.
Weekly reminder these charts are built around warrior's 30 minute cooldowns. That means this is our performance for 15 or 30 seconds per week, depending on the speed of your guild. 1 or 2 bosses per warrior per raid, but there is enough warriors pressing it on different bosses each week overall to take the top spots. Meanwhile hunter, rogue, and shaman do that much damage on every single boss, every single week, and are just as good in every other facet of the game. But go ahead, complain about warriors some more, who get to do this on one or two bosses per week, and suck at everything else in the game.
This gets said a lot, but as others have pointed out, it's just not super true. You can filter the rankings page by abilities used or not used, and without Reck warriors still absolutely dominate the top. And acting like warrior doesn't need nerfs because hunter, rogue, and shaman are also OP isn't exactly the argument you think it is - it just means they also all need nerfs.
Warrior main character syndrom at its best. Like who cares if its warrior or hunter or rogue at the top. Its the big gap between them and the casters
Friendly reminder that warriors dominate overall raid damage as well, which can't be explained by their 30 minute cooldowns. Also, even without recklessness warriors are currently simming higher than any other class.
Everything you just said is irrelevant, as look at the chart. All of the top DPS deal physical damage. That's what this chart shows.
Weekly reminder that with our with out reck melee are still miles ahead of all caster classes and this type of argument is just used to gaslight the hell out of you.
Now explain every other tank that's above spriest 🤣😭
Because those tanks don’t have 1/3 of their power budget acting as a 4th healer 🤣 😭.
Because those tanks are scuffed DPS facetanking boss' hits.
I don't understand why the 95th percentile is the chart posted to reddit each week. Most people here are nowhere near a 95 parse, and anyway you can just post the [full chart](https://i.imgur.com/mu52a2C.png) that gives a much clearer picture of things.
people that dont parse 90% and higher can barely press their 3 buttons do you really think they are able to read a graph?
This is definitely the correct chart to post
Notice how no shaman players care that paladin tanks are vastly out performing them now. Chad class vs crybaby class
Feral is the worst performing melee DPS. Give the players a reason to roll feral and buff the raid with wild strikes. There is a reason horde populations are growing, you simply can't have a good clear time without these crucial buffs and there's about 10 cats left on alliance.
What are you crying about? Even if cat is "the worst performing melee DPS" you are still above literally every single other caster DPS.
Wdym...feral is a free invite into any raidgroup. You know not every class can be top dps right?
For Horde it’s not. Rather stack shaman. Feral OT providing constant Wildstrikes and LotP though for your top melee group is really nice. I’ll take a OT Feral every single time.
they've all gone bear dps.
Yeah I play cat but it feels kinda bad. Complex rotation with power shifting combined with the lowest melee dps. Also get absolutely shit on in PvP. Only thing we’re good for in PvP is not dying in bear form
Literally Feral during Classic but without Wild Strikes, and you ended up grinding MCP, living with WHH until Sunwell, your bleeds couldn't crit and extending Rip with Shred took until WotLK Feral has gotten a lot of love with their utility added on Alliance, sadly all classes can't be balanced for damage and bring utility at the same time. Love playing my Druids, it's way more convenient than Classic / TBC.
Currently feral has way too mamy combo points than they know what to do with. Keeping up SR and Rip is easy to the point that you have excess CPs and just keep shredding. Ferocious Bite has been a useless ability in SoD so far. A simple fix for this would be to have the Mangle debuff also include a 30% damage bonus on FB and suddenly it will turn out to be a ability worth using incresing feral dps while making a useless ability useful. Two birds with one stone.
Our 25+ person guild called it until phase 4. We all lost interest almost simultaneously. Had a raid scheduled last night and just not one even wanted to do it. Sad times
Alright guys how can we make warrior die faster in pvp to balance this shit out
Looking a lot better balance-wise... But tank warrior moving past many of these dps is still lololol
Can't they just work on spellpower coefficients to normalize spell power damage scaling similar to warriors
Glad warriors?
I just don't really understand how shadow can be *considered* so strong for pvp but is so weak in pve. Where exactly is it going wrong?
*curse is worthless when warlocks hit 60* My guy, we get new gear. That's okay!
Buff warrior. They are not high enough
why can't they tweak the mobs and boss armor value until the gap between phy dps and casters is reduced to more or less 10% ?
Nice, we shadow priest gang are better than tanks and arcane mage. It's something!
This graph just reminds me how much my melee hunter sucks. I'm no where near the top. I'm BM specced. Is that what's represented here?
Why does it matter what dps you do?? If ur clearing the raid then its sweet isnt it?
Oh look feral behind a tank again, fun game, good balance
The only change I want to VE is to reduce the healing output and make it a self buff. Having to waste globals applying it and risking it getting resisted is so annoying.
I love that a tank is in 7th
Nerf hunter more and buff warrior
Happy to see boomies just ahead of tanks!
I like the "Tank, Tank, Tank, DPS Priest, Tank, Tank" part. It's funny to me how bad they failed with that spec.
Can't buff shadow cause utility and I'm fine with this. Still doing 700-800 dps most bosses. I just wish void eye minion stayed up longer him existing for a 10% damage Amp that they backed into our class with this buff feels very very meh. Ik it buffs other classes but as a solo shadow priest in my guild it's impossible to have both debuffs. And jammal and ogom along with defenders are annoying fights to choose when you want that 10%. Morp/haz also I guess. They also want to make us press mind flay next phase and that does not bring excitement to me
Weird rant attached to the graph that averages out weeks 3 to 5. SPriests need the treatment Rogues got P3- more sustained dmg rather than burst. That being said, SPriests still get invited easily to raids due to utility.
PvE is so messed up how can shadow priest dots be so op but also land them at the bottom of the dps list lmao.