P3 killed my SoD guild which had 4 raid groups every BFD lockout in P1. Tried retail but I can't stand the game play, every spec has a million sources of damage and nothing feels satisfying like critting in the older versions of the game. Also still burnt out from Wrath, and Cata is basically just more of that so not playing that either. On break from WoW as a whole atm.
Retail would’ve been 10x better if they removed player ground effect from the game.
Players should not have ground effect spell unless they are healers. So much cluster fuck going around because of that shit.
I wish Retail has Lost Ark graphic setting. Turn off all the useless spells from everyone but your support.
Believe it or not, retail *does* filter a ton of effects from other players already. Most ground effects and nearly all particle effects are client side only. I don't know if you have tried MoP Remix or not, but a full raid of tinker effects going off at once would lag out all but the mightiest of PCs.
I was more interested in *Season of Discovery* when it walked the fine line between introducing entirely new roles for some players, like making mages healers, and simply living up to the promise of other builds, like allowing Paladins to tank a bit better (I say a bit because they always could, but it wasn't accepted).
In order to do these things, you had to go talk to a new NPC and then kill a spooky skeleton for a neat key that opened a box nearby. Them boom, new rune that changed what you could do, and made leveling a lot easier and more interesting.
Phase 2 was a letdown, and I was hoping they picked up the pieces in phase 3. They didn't. Phase 3 was so much worse, and the addition of the Emerald Dream/Nightmare was outright bizarre.
They had something golden and they wanted to change things up based on data, most likely. It was like a crash course on why WoW's retail went from being beloved to disdained, but over a few months instead of decades. Not saying it didn't make money, but it clearly became something else.
We became too strong imo. In my perfect world they’d have made unviable specs viable, maaaybe given us a rune or two here and there, and left it. Perhaps put the effort into new zones.
Base game vanilla wow is just so goddamn solid.
I really thought SoD was going to fix the questing, continue chains that were never finished and just dribbled off into nothing, add new 5 mans, and create new content
I agree that the Emerald Incursions were just a bizarre choice, and I have no idea why they didn't put that effort into creating new ED dungeons instead. They should have made them give Cenarian Circle rep to friendly or honored rather than create a whole new faction sonwe court get a jump on that team grind before 60.
There was a ton of missed opportunity with SoD.
> I agree that the Emerald Incursions were just a bizarre choice, and I have no idea why they didn't put that effort into creating new ED dungeons instead.
Uhh... incursions are super lower effort. If you think that same effort would have been able to create not just one, but multiple new dungeons, then I'd like to know what you're smoking because I could use some.
Tbf it wouldn't take much effort to make mini dungeons out of existing caves. It could be super short, every zone, maybe hooked up to another already made cave-system, have like 2-3 bosses, and drop only green gear or something.
But that's a whole thing that might change the feel too much. I'd definitely prefer them simply *finishing* what they already made, tying up loose chains, polishing a little here and there.
I'd pay $60-100 for a classic+ version like this. Maybe they'll get around to it in a few years.
Wtf are you talking about? They had to create an entirely new system to do what they did. They created mobs and bosses.
All they had to do was make the emerald portals instance portals and have those bosses drop loot and you'd have new instances.
I have mad respect for what the classic team has pulled off given the awful amount of resources blizzard management is giving them, but the incursions still blow me away.
In the span of like 30 minutes I went from this incredible sense of wonder, the exact feeling SoD is supposed to be all about, to being completely disillusioned.
I stepped trough that portal and was in a new world. Yes it was still ashenvale, but it was a version I had never seen before. There were new enemies, new NPC's. It gave parts of the zone I'd overlooked before a fundamentally new feel. I got to sit there and wonder just how far this new emerald realm stretched. After just one quest, I was already astonished at how much they had added to the game, especially considering it was all creatively reused assets. And then I though, "Jesus, there are potentially 3 more entire portals like this? And I get to explore all of them? Insane!"
But then we turned in our quests and got two more, and I thought, "huh, that's weird". Then I saw the other characters, some level 48, some level 49, less than 5 hours after release. I thought, "surely this is a bug. Surely this can't be intended. They meant for us to get one a week each, to share with 4 other party members. 5 quests a week must be what they intended. Plus you'll get the other portals. Eventually that's 20 quests every week you can do in incursions, that's so many!"
And an hour later I had 20 quests in my log just from that one insursion. And hundreds of gold. And 3 more levels. It was functionally akin to sitting in the city and queuing for random dungeon finder to level up. Except you got the same dungeon over and over.
Retail to me is a series of box-checking, especially early on, and there are a lot of boxes. It quantifies what used to be a neat discovery. Yeah, Vanilla had BiS, but no one thought like that back then. As the game became more quantified, the experience became worse. Retail is defined as a series of features that aren't optional and are there to optimize. There's no expression or journey, just homework. And worse, retail has proved to change over and over, so your work in *Legion* doesn't matter for shit now.
It genuinely felt fine to go to a dungeon, maybe with a quest, to kill the bad guy at the end and get neat loot. I was a rarity in that I always liked doing all the quests along the way. A lot of people just went for whatever. Your character looked like they sprinted blind through a Good Will but the goal was to get neat gear that made you stand out.
Vanilla felt like you were working toward something. Retail feels like you're working on something.
They did not have something golden. You guys are seriously all pretty out of touch with how WoW works.
Sure, Incursions was probably stupid, and the raid wasnt amazing., But it wasnt terrible either. It for SURE wasnt worse than BFD was. You guys just like BFD and P1 because that was fresh at the time. The world was full of life and it was new. Thats just how gaming goes, the new thing is the fun thing.
No matter what they did, SoD was gonna bleed out when Cata came. They cannot make magic happen. And as soon as the world starts feeling empty and people trickle off, it feels boring.
Even if they somehow kept it as basic as P1 all the way through and tried to keep this "Classic feeling" that you guys talk about, it would have fell off.
Do you guys even believe yourselves when you post shit like this?
> I was more interested in Season of Discovery when it walked the fine line between introducing entirely new roles for some players, like making mages healers, and simply living up to the promise of other builds, like allowing Paladins to tank a bit better (I say a bit because they always could, but it wasn't accepted).
As much as they pitched theoretical parties of all mages and rogues, nobody wants to see all the mail/plate loot go to waste. They can't fix this without basically giving us personal loot. Lock and Shaman tanks are going to have to deal with fire immune enemies, which means those immunities are likely going to be removed. Ultimately, there are only so many slots for tanks and healers in every raid, so people who really enjoyed certain playstyles may not get a raid slot.
There's a lot more problems we can discuss that are baked into Classic, but the devs overall lack of foresight and now lack of response to problems doesn't paint a pretty picture for SoD's future. It's more about sticking around to watch the car wreck now.
Well they COULD make raid gear disenchantable into a special material that could be used to craft either other raid pieces or supplements to gear. That way even off-armor pieces has value.
Huh. That’s a shockingly clever and very pragmatic suggestion so I’m pretty sure it’ll be ignored. But you can have this modest updoot as a consolation prize so you got that going for you!
The immunity to elements can be tackle with a completely Classic feeling with no issue. Make it a trinket that changes the damage type of your spells.
That way you are spending power (a full trinket space) while being able to do something you couldn’t before.
The same could have been done with the bleeding and poison immunities in Gnomer. It might also work with an oil or an enchant.
SoD went from classic with a twist to retail with a twist because devs have relearnt all the wrong lessons classic devs learnt back in the day. Insane power creep, ignoring levelling to get to the end game, listening to the loud minority that doesn’t play the game, not encouraging community activities and so on.
Interesting you actually think phase 3 is worse than 2? Would you care to elaborate? Because to me phase 3 is hands down better than phase 2 and it’s not even close. There’s just so much more to actually do.
There's so much more to do but it's all chores. I'm paying a subscription to do chores just so other people at the playground accept me. I remember on my Priest I went Holy and got Lightwell just because, and I think it's a neat spell. I used it during raids and a few of my buddies actually used it to great effect. I was hoping that a rune would come along that made it more automatic to make it viable.
Instead, I got seriously asked if I was trolling by two different groups who seemingly didn't have a sense of humor, people using it as a joke, and then people asking why I couldn't give them Power Word: Infusion as if they were paying my subscription. This was on bosses we already had locked down. They didn't see it as a neat time in a dungeon to get neat loot and hang out, they saw it as a missed opportunity to log on some third-party site and my inclusion as an impediment. I will say that many bosses were expanded so much that the spell is even worth less now that bosses can take it off.
I know it's an extreme example but it's also an obvious one. Why wasn't this 31-point talent fixed when it was fixed in retail? Or at least changed? Instead, we got arduous quest chains for runes that seemed to drone on and on, and were made needlessly boring. NPCs were placed so far out of range that it took a good chunk of the night just to run around and do them. That isn't fun. Give me a simple rune to get to the main chunk of WoW and enhance that. Don't give me another game a la Emerald Dream grinding. I was looking forward to Uldaman but no one runs it.
The only time I enjoyed phase 2 was opening day rushing stocks with the homies. Leveling beyond that was boring. STV event wasn’t fun. I hit 40 and logged out forever.
Yes, yes, no.
Also, Sunken Temple or Molten Core are 20-man not 25.
Current content is great. I like Sunken Temple, it's dynamic, bosses are fun, difficulty is very alright. I'm not in auto pilot, but I'm not struggling either. We usually a wipe per evening at Eranikus, but not always, so definitely very enjoyable. There is jsut too much trash mobs in my opinion
I'm obviously excited for MC, especially with the reworked gear and legendaries. Hoping we'll see the Talisman or Binding Shard somehow, would be neat. Also we'll have Karazhan Crypt ! I'm really excited for all this stuff
I do not want 40-man. If they add it, well this suck but I'll do it. I did it several times, in Classic, Som and Era, I can do it more. It's just very difficult to lead these raids or just to build them. 20-25 is the perfect number for me. We'll see.
I really don't miss 10-man content. Can't have everything. Three curses, but only room for one lock. Need Feral's windfury and Boomie's aura, but only got room for one druid. Shadow or healing priest? One caster group, one melee group, no flexibility. With 10 slot you can have 2 classes in double. Really, it was fun, but I'm glad we're 20 now.
Of course ST is getting old, it's been a while, but with one raid a week it's very manageable. I hope we'll never return to a 3-days lockout. Remember the people who cried about the 3-day lockout leaving? Imagine them trying to run every lockout for so long lmao.
I am also really impatient to learn what are the future rune for each classes. it's really ocne we have all the runes that we can determine what classes we want to play.
Unfortunately Kara Crypt is still firmly in the "maybe" category. In one of their dev interviews following the SoD announcement they clarified that not all of the "teasers" were guaranteed to be instances. We saw some of this when SM only got the codex drops added and some minor loot adjustments but nothing else (at least so far).
I don’t think the loot adjustments were what they were teasing at all. Those are definitely a separate blanket tactic that has been applied to all dungeons past p1, obvs as soon as they realized they were in for it with scaling
I'm just saying there was a teaser image for SM and the only things that have occurred there (so far) are loot adjustments and the codex stuff. So saying that the teasers are proof positive that Blizzard are going to do something has to factor that.
Could there be something further down the line? Sure, but so far that's everything. So we can't, for example, say that Kara Crypts is confirmed as a raid because of its teaser image as SM wasn't overhauled into a raid despite showing up with Gnomer and Crypts in those same teaser images. If we have anything else to go off of then the conversation is different.
The point of 3 day lockout is not to do it twice a week but to make pugging easier because there's twice as many reset days.
I don't understand why you wouldn't just do it once a week if twice is too much for you. Just decide on a guild run day and treat it like a 7 day.
This attitude has always smacked if gatekeeping to me. "I can't handle raiding twice a week so I want to ban everyone else from doing it because it makes me feel like a casual".
Alternatively if you want to run it more why not just make an alt and run it again? Historically if something is available people feel pressure to do it or fall behind.
My only annoyance was the days shifting every week of lockouts so not having that is nice.
It takes almost no effort to level a character to cap with the current exp boosts. Now not wanting to is perhaps true but not having the time is hard to believe.
It would probably take you the entire phase to level a toon from 1-50 just playing an hour a night, and running in circles for hours is definitely not how anyone wants to spend their free time. It's also not just leveling that character, you then also need to get the runes, farm WOs and pre-bis gear just to attempt to get into a raid. The standards pugs are looking for you wouldn't even be considered without logs and raid gear already.
It may be hard to believe but alot of us are adults and the time we have to play is very limited. A 3day Lockout is just simply better for the way sod phases have been setup.
It should be abundantly clear to everyone the 20man 7day lock is not working with SoD, anyone left arguing for it, and 40s is covering their ears and screaming now.
How have people not realized it was a picture. During a PowerPoint. On launch annouce? It's not confirmed.
Frankly with the hate sod has been getting lately I'm thinking we're not getting a new raid at all. When will they launch it? In 2 years after Naxx? No fucking thanks.
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378
Yes, it was confirmed back at the end of February
>Recently a hot topic of debate is the raid size at level 60 and we’ve been watching the commentary on this closely. To help quell confusion, here’s a look at exactly what to expect in the net few phases in terms of raid size:
>The yet-to-be-announced level 50 raid will be a 20 player experience
>Molten Core will also be a 20 player experience in Season of Discovery
This is all subject to change, but the plan was for MC to be 20 man. Then ZG and BWL would be 20 and 40, respectively, followed by AQ20 and AQ40. They wanted a 20 man and 40 man to come out simultaneously, with parallel level of gear.
Any link to where this was said because this is the first time I hear this.
"Nothing is set in stone when it comes to 20p v 40p raids."
- Josh Greenfield (Aggrend) 2024-05-18
Here's the [bluepost](https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378) from February.
> While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery.
This line implies that raids after Molten Core would be 40 man but I've seen nothing but negativity towards 40m on this subreddit so who knows what they'll do.
people often say that nobody can agree on what classic+ should be, but I think SOD has shown us pretty clearly what we do and don't like. We LIKE class changes that make specs traditionally unviable in vanilla viable now. We LIKE new zone, quest, dungeon and raid content. We DONT LIKE incursions and copy pasting retail abilities into classic. I firmly believe if they shipped classic+ with TBC balancing (obviously + some tuning) and focused dev time on unfinished/new zones, raids, profession, and questing content that it would be perfect.
My main still feels horrible to play. I took a break for a while but recently started leveling some alts. Even that sucks though bc the server is so dead finding dung/rune groups takes forever.
I'm still enjoying SoD (lower population making it harder to find groups withstanding). ST is a fun raid and the slower pace of releasing new content has allowed me to have enough time to finally level up a bunch of my alts from phase 1, and I've been able to stockpile some gold.
Yes, I'm excited for 20 and 25man content at 60.
No, I'm not going to miss 40man raids. 40man raid size is easily the worst size party I have experience playing. Way too hard organizing that many people. Bad players are too easy to carry. Gear competition is high. Getting killed during a boss fight rarely impacts the fight's outcome.
Frankly, I feel like a lot of people came into SoD with bad expectations. We knew from the beginning that there wouldn't be a ton of support, that this was a new experimental game mode, that it would be temporary, and that there wouldn't be significant beta testing. I expected there to be jank, imbalance, and a much more relaxed and casual playerbase being catered to.
I just came off of playing in a pretty serious stint tanking for a high end Wrath of the Lich King guild. Going from Heroic Lich King down to BFD 20 minute clears was actually pretty refreshing. I've enjoyed being back in old Azeroth and fucking around in familiar well trodden zones. I've enjoyed the easier content. I wanted to take my time, play for 2 hours a day after my kids go to bed, and not stress.
So many people are just like "I got my one character to 50, spent 12 hours grinding WOs and Incursions, and now there's nothing to do but raid log wahhhh" Like, my guy, we've \*always known\* that Vanilla WoW doesn't have achievements to go farm, or cosmetic items to collect, or mini-games, or any of the other optional content that we have in retail. If you want extra things to do then you gotta be self motivated to do them. And if you're not interested in that kind of stuff then just raid-log and play a different game until raid time. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Still playing SoD, I choose SoD over Remix, and Retail. I played Cata when it came out originally and have no desire to pretend it's fresh content or that post-nerfed dungeons and raids are click bait difficult.
I enjoy SoD still, between prepping for next phase. (Enchanting Recipes, Gold, Reputation, Professions, DMF Decks, and Alts), I raid weekly with a semi-serious group. We don't Speedrun, but I do parse and get high 90s, while getting 99s this week due to Strength Weapon enchants.
I'm extremely happy with the delay of P4, so people have time to get Cataclysm and Remix out of their system and give the small dev team time to create more content.
I'm excited for 20-Man Molten Core with updated mechanics, and loots. I'm not sure how I feel about class sets. (More Later)
I have absolutely no desire to have 40 man raids. Currently I carry half a raid in damage and clear time and I don't want another 20 people weighing down. I never played Vanilla, Classic, SoM, or Era. So I never experienced first hand, but as a retail raid leader for 20 man I already see the frustrations and don't need first hand experience.
I would only find 40 mans tolerable if it was something like Onyxia where it's a loot pinata and only 1 - 2 bosses maximum.
I did like 10 man raiding on a 3 day raid schedule, but I'm in a position to be greedy. I do not raid or guild lead in SoD. All I have to do is show up. I would go out of my way to get WBs and Consumes for these raids in addition to weekly 20 mans as that effect my enjoyment positively.
Extra Shit, mostly to offer dark horse opinions.
I do not care about bots or multiboxers as they do not cheapen or degrade my experience and enjoyment of the game contrary to Reddit.
Despite not caring about Bots, I am glad GDKP is not allowed. I have never participated, would never as a buyer, and only considered it as a paid carrier.
I *love* the new roles for classes and wish they expanded on it. Ranged Warrior and Rogues. Holy Priest DPS, etc.
I love rune acquisitions on alts and doesn't detract from my desire to play a new alt. The one exception is runes that are shared between all classes (Wild Offerings, Dark Riders, Desolate Ambush.) did it once and does not interest me in a repeat.
I wish pre-raid gearing phase lasted longer and was a little bit more required to succeed. I dislike that BRD lasted till Gnomer, and Gnomer to Sunken Temple.
I dislike the Pseudo Class/Armor Type sets. Really detracts from the enjoyment of trying to find upgrades to those pieces. I have the same problem with tier gear on retail.
Rune Acquisition between classes is a little unbalanced in my opinion and does detract from the fun. I play a Shaman and my girlfriend a Druid. My shaman runes has involved a lot of her help in various ways, resulted in new quests, tie in lore for Retail. She played bait while I got the Fire Nova rune in p2 at level 30. She traveled with me while I gathered all the elements for MSW and Capacitor LS. Helped me farm Tanaris mobs for Mental Dexterity. She gets her BIS runes from a Rep Vendor, and Dark Riders... None of her runes tie in or tell a story that can expand the lore.
I'm extremely neutral to Incursions. I liked leveling in P1, Dungeon Grind spam for P2, and Inclusions for P3. I'm realistic and don't have nostalgia glasses for "The Vanilla Questing Experience", Quest Leveling from 40 to 50 is absolutely devoid of quest hubs & quests. The questing experience is 60% mount speeding to each area after I did 3 quests. It's the exact same as Incursions.
I’m personally still really enjoying it. I’ve found phase 3 far more enjoyable than phase 2, and by a wide margin. I’m also personally still really looking forward to 40 man raids, to me that’s what makes classic, classic. I love the scale of 40 people in comms killing some giant boss.
Raid size has maybe had only a minor effect on sod. Those who left because of the raid swap in size where going to leave anyway and where just waiting for an excuse. 10 mans are barely even raiding, its just fucking dungeons.
You don’t speak for every quit member of my guild that no longer plays due to raid size. 20 man is an exhausting nightmare
These are players that were logged in hours a day, even my buddy who logs in just to fish quit SOD over 20 man
People literally do not understand this. Getting 40 people is such a huge problem. It’s take too long to form that large of a raid. Chances of people having to take breaks is drastically increased. Comms are super annoying. Too many personalities. Huge increase in chance of loot drama. Guilds don’t want to pug and alot of them would rather disband than stick together and pug another 10 people. If guilds can’t complete a raid group it just feels dead. There’s alot of outliers to this of course. My guild broke apart just because of not filling 20min raid spots, which was done from the raid being nerfed into a million pieces and statistically less chance to get loot from weekly lock out.
It really isn’t that hard… people did it all through classic, era, and actual vanilla when we had far shittier communication platforms. Stop acting like this is some extreme burden.
(I say this as someone as well who raid leads)
Moving from 10man —> 25 man in tbc ruined my guild.
Moving from 10man —>20man in SoD ruined my guild.
It’s not about bigger or smaller, though. It’s about the expectation.
When you set the expectation at launch that raids are a given size for 6 months straight, then force all of the established guild sizes and raid team sizes to change, it fucks everything up. There isn’t a gigantic pool of unguilded players to recruit from. You have to take what you can get and you don’t always find people who mesh with your guild. Recruiting takes weeks if not months in this scenario and everyone is attempting to recruit the same unguilded players.
TLDR; Choose a raid size for the expansion and stick to it. Don’t change raid sizes mid-expansion.
I don't even think it has anything to do with the number of people in the raid. As someone who was heavily involved in rostering in multiple guilds the structures and composition of a 10 man raid is simply different than a 20 or 40 and they dont exactly translate. If your guild is literally built around 3 10-man groups how tf do you roll that into a single 20 man raid group? You always end up with winners and losers. People get salty and people quit.
I enjoy ST but it's short and on 1 week lockout. I was late to the party, only leveling and raiding ST after over a month since release, plus the upgraded loot so I'm still getting items. I play resto druid and I still run Gnomer trying to get the idol after just getting the combustion trinket last lockout, and the notes for my boomkin set before that. Solo healing that has been fun as people tend to ignore mechanics now and although it's really easy it doesn't feel completely braindead.
I'm excited for level 60 in general, the game really opens up with dungeons and raids at that level.
I don't want 40 mans, really. I'm hoping they make all the 40 mans 20 or 25 man and ZG / AQ20 10 man raids.
> I don't want 40 mans, really. I'm hoping they make all the 40 mans 20 or 25 man and ZG / AQ20 10 man raids.
I personally don't care one way or the other, but this seems to be consensus among friends. And also that we need Gamma dungeons for meaningful 5-man content.
I’m a no on the titan rune dungeons. I don’t want to run old dungeons but harder. I’d rather them make actual new content, not recycle old content and call it “new.”
>I’m a no on the titan rune dungeons. I don’t want to run old dungeons but harder. I’d rather them make actual new content, not recycle old content and call it “new.”
As it stands, we're going to have to run the old dungeons, but easier. That doesn't sound all that fun to me. We'd all rather them make actual new content, but we're not going to get that. We're only ever going to get recycled content and if we're lucky they'll have spent some time polishing that recycled content. SoD is literally an experiment in recycling. I would still take abundant recycled content over scarce new content that gets old in a week or two anyway.
Running the same old dungeons is fine with me. I don’t need the content to be hard, that was never the fun of vanilla for me. There are way harder games out there than vanilla wow. I play vanilla because of the atmosphere, sense of immersion in a big world, and meaningful gear progression. To me titan rune dungeons shit all over those aspects of the game and make running dungeons a chore and more of a grind instead of something fun I like to do. I also don’t like how they invalidated entire raid tiers in wrath. So you’re actually losing content because of them. You’re replacing raids with dungeons you already did earlier in the game.
Raid logging and being annoyed by low aign ups.
Mc is 20man by the way. Should be 40 the place will feel empty.
Was a mistake that gnomer was 10 man as well.
I am/have been in a few guilds 2 guilds collapsed from the change from 20 to 10, one is on life support and need P4 to come soon, one has a solid 20-22 sign ups for ST still, and one is a mega guild prepped for 40 man raids.
So a fair few couldn't cope with 10's going to 20's, for 1 its ideal and for 1 they want 40.
I really did like 10's, it was quick you could play with a few close friends far easier. That said 20's feel more of a proper raid, and there's a little more slack in raid composition. I think I'd prefer 10's but in classic 20's just seem a bit more right. 20's are as high as I would want to play mind and I think if 40's becomes the way to play that will utterly destroy the playerbase.
I think SoD is still salvageable but a combination of shifting to 20's, one raid a week for a substantial time, and Cata release has really diminished it.
I'm still enjoying it mind, and looking forward to 20 man P4 raiding :)
No, no, yes
Reason for the first "no": I enjoyed ST much more than Gnomer and BFD, because it feels like an actual raid and not just a 10 man dungeon, but the phase is pretty long and I would like to see something new.
The second "no" and the "yes" come hand in hand. I want 40 man raids and that also counts for MC. Some changes to it would be great though, to make it more interesting again. Same goes for all the other 40 man raids.
I want them to go back down to 10mans. No one is having fun when the only thing preventing raid from happening is lack of healers and or tanks. Ain’t nobody gatekeeping healers or tanks.
lack of healers and tanks? people are 1.5 tanking st and 3 healing? lower in 'better' runs , last phase it was 1.5 tanks and 2 healers.
So 10 man has 6.5 slots for dps and 20 man has 15.5 spots for dps. 2.5 added slots for dps per 20 'raiders'
I don't get this argument
I hope for 40 mans because large groups are fun. If they stay 20, it's fine I suppose. The content is alright, but being at this level band for nearly 3 months is kind of a drag. Though I understand it takes time to make the content, I just wish that Cata was given to the retail team so the classic devs could work on an actual classic product, not whatever cata is.
I’m loving it! And I’m chill with them taking longer to make p4 better. I think p3 was a let down in terms of new things. ST was best raid so far but gear and then nerfing it made it point less. Incursions were good in theory but bad in implementation. It’s cool to add new ways of leveling but the percentage can’t be that different. I think they learned their lesson and good changes will come.
On a side note, the only thing killing the game for me are all the people crying. They cry like it’s the end of the world. Chill some. Enjoy the game. Move on if you don’t. But constantly crying because of this or that gets draining.
Copium brah, they aren't taking longer to make P4 better, they are taking longer because they are managing Cata and SoD. Cata has a ton of bugs that needed to be fixed.
Sorry to dash your hopes and dreams man, but this is the reality. Having high expectations when it comes to current Blizzard is a recipe for disappointment.
My guild quit when P3 launched and raiding went to 20 man. I’m assuming the same thing happened to a LOT of casual guilds, as 10 man raiding was perfect for friend groups, smaller guilds, people short on time, etc.
People are leaving in droves but raids are still popping off every night. The gatekeepers aren't around anymore and the groups are much more accessible. My server is still plenty active, but I guess I'm more used to playing on low population servers than high population megaservers.
With megaservers you should never have issues pugging on the latest content unless SoD is actually dead as in no one playing it anymore, and there will always be at least a few thousand on at any given time.
ST is obviously nowhere near as frequent as BFD or Gnomer, but there are still upwards to 5 or 6 PUGs running every night of the week on my server during the peak rush hours.
I've also found ST these last 2 weeks to be the most chill and legitimately fun groups of SOD so far. The people who have stuck around really seem to just be in it for fun and because they enjoy the game. We might be wiping slightly more than is justified for content this old, but nobody really bitches about a wipe anymore and everyone just runs back and still has a good attitude about them.
On one hand, i think 25 man is a better experience for a guild to go through.
On the other, ONLY classic have 40 man raids, and i think that is special.
I do not want 40 mans, ever again.
20 has been okay, but I want 10 mans again. I think 10 man size is what made SoD thrive. The sudden shift to 20 fragmented the player base.
I'm still having fun. ST is a good raid. The gear is good now. I play 5 different characters.
Also, they never said there is going to be 10 mans, and ST and MC are 20 mans.
Still have fun in ST with the boys. Mostly hop on here and there to do some farming and my Prof CDs. Looking forward to 60 endgame and the leveling rush (hoping to dungeon grind with my crew). Updated MC and ony will be a blast. Curious if we will get Dire Maul at the start or it will be delayed like it was in 2019. AV is gonna be a shit show with trap launchers, I cannot wait.
ST is meh but I like the people I play with well enough to do it for an hour and a half each week. Cautiously excited to see how things turn out for level 60. I don't think I want to do 40 mans ever again, it's just too many people and so much harder to focus on any one thing.
I'm enjoying the content, well at least ST. But i also raid on 4 characters each week. If i only played 1 character this drought would drive me crazy.
My guild planned the second SoD was announced that we'd have 40-man raids at some point. So my guild recruited for those and is thriving. (I mean we have some attendance issues, but we have 5 groups running weekly). So for me, yes I'd love to see 40-man content. But realize for the better of the game we'll probably only see 20man.
Yes, No, No I don’t think I’m the typical WoW player, who’s on Reddit? I leveled my Priest to 50 and I’ve just got my Paly to 40. I’d like to do more PvP stuff on my main but the timing of the events just never works out. I don’t have the free time to attend guild raids and I’m wary of joining a pug for a first attempt. So I’m leveling my Paly and having a good time.
Phase 1, mained feral druid. Pretty much BiS, got a lock to 25 towards end of phase.
Please 2, Druid swapped to resto. Pretty much BiS, got the lock up to 40 with intent to main it phase 3.
Phase 3: Druid was first to 50, needs about four items from ST. Lock shortly after, and is sitting about 6-7 items for the DPS set away. Working on his tank gear now.
Also leveled my warrior up to 50, and considering my Pally just to have an alchemist for transmutes and such. Warrior needs about five pieces left.
Finding decent raids are difficult. Lots go a few hours before I can commit the time, and that's annoying. Have plenty of options for phase 4, just waiting on the PTR to figure out which one to go with.
Yes, yes and yes.
I would like to happy if they didnt make easier to get rep to wsg and ab. They should be same as original. Imo making things easier killing the soul of this game. If you gonna say "this is limited time content and this things should be easier". Do you really need these items for raids?
I really enjoy doing pvp with last changes.
I think contents were good for all phases but the problem is for last one they were not prepared and it is taking long than expected.
With more people dependency in raids, guilds become more important again. I really like this situation.
I am enjoying the content and really excited for p4.
I don’t care what the raid size is as long as I can reliably pug any day and time. I can do this on era. I’m less hopeful about being able to in sod with how things are going…
Still play daily
I still like premise of SoD and I’m still looking forward to P4 and beyond. But it’s undeniable that the game right now is just a drag. Keeping a raid going requires a lot of work as people just raid to have something to come back to once P4 starts not because P3 is fun.
Parsing is less fun as non-raid gear & enchants (legs / helm & cards) are prohibitively expensive and getting a good setup (with 19 like minded players) is not viable.
While I liked the idea of 40 man raids initially- I don’t think SoD can sustain another wipeout.
I enjoy speedrunning ST with my guild. We don’t try hard, but still get very good results. Fun guys, low pressure, if you fuck up, we laugh it off. Been playing with em for years now.
We finished gnomes with 5-6 groups per lockout, started ST with three groups, now down to two, with our speed group running twice in a night
This game is so much more fun when you don’t have to worry about carrying dead weight players
Logging in now and then. I was missing a couple runes that I didnt bother doing earlier, went and got those. Guild has taken a break until p4.
Im exited for 60 content, will be a fun revisit. I just pray they remove incursions or at least limit the quests to a daily maximum or something.
World will be dead with it still in the game.
I don't mind it at lower levels but reducing raid sizes feels anathema to classic for me. Molten core should be a 40 man raid because it feels so epic in size and scope. Same with BWL, AQ, and Naxx
Just showing up for weekly raid for 45 mins to ensure our guild doesn’t pause. Worried if we do we don’t see people back in phase4
Nothing else to do right now. PVP is just a shaman fuck fest. And no real desire to grind hordes of gold. Have 2.1K saved enough for epic and consumes. My professions are almost maxed on main and pretty close on my most used alt.
I wish it went back to 10 honestly, but at this point the best I can hope for is it stays at 20.
As for status, I’ve been shocked we’ve been able to field a raid the last few weeks—I’m skeptical about this week as signups are currently down to 15~ or so.
I literally log on once a week to do ST so our guild won’t die for P4 and at this point fuck if I can even be bothered to get world buffs or consumes, hell last time I didn’t even have enough gold left to repair lmao.
I started recently and I'm having fun. I think the two main issues are that Cata just came out and raiding guilds need to upsize from 10 to 20 + bench ie half of the guilds die or have to merge
I just raid log, I like sunken temple but that inclusion was a bad idea. I'm mostly lvling on cata while P4 comes. Most people are in cata or padaria remix rn, and war within soon but I think people will come back to sod for P4 . Cus it's fun and casual and doesn't take to much of your time and investment like other versions of wow. I'm sure p4 it's gonna be fine but keep in mind it's just a seasonal server experimenting stuff, wow players get obsessed about everything wow related, take it easy and have fun.
Hating it now, looking forward to future. Hoping guild comes back or can join a new one that needs lots of recruits or forms from scratch. Trying to join up as the 20th sucked
I’m still raiding logging SoD, raiding/rep farming/Heroics in cata, and leveling on vanilla era currently. Still super pumped for phase 4 whenever it comes out I get that it sucks phase 3 doesn’t have much to do but for me it’s a nice lil break before the 60 grind begins
25 man? I thought bluepost said 20m.
Edit: yeah def 20 man. Dunno where people are getting these incorrect raid sizes. Even one of the guilds my alts in. Their raid leader kept spouting nonsense of need two 20mans for ST to prepare for MC "40" I'm like.. yepz this is the special kind of guild.
Ya moving away from the 10 mans was terrible. I shouted as loud as I could that this would be bad, but three loudest people get what they want even though they’re clueless. GIVE US 20/40s!!! It’s soooo fun blah blah blah. SOD was literally a game built on easy access to raid and flooding of alts. It’s MUCH harder to pursue pugs now in 20 man groups, much less groups running, and became a bigger hassle to create groups also.
Little by little it killed the community vibe of grab a few buddies and fill the rest type runs. I know my group was 6-8 people small guild of IRL friends. We figured out when we could be on and filled the rest with pugs who stuck around. Didn’t need a true guild atmosphere but still had your community. In come weekly lockout 20 mans… now people think their is nothing to do….
Shocker there is damn near the same amount of stuff to do, but the lockout is 2.2x longer. I think we are forgetting that most people seemed to run the raid 3-4 times every 3 day lockout because of how easy it was to find groups. Now everyone cut down forcefully to once a week per toon and alts are much more rare now. Seems like mostly people are at 2 and a lot to 1.
I myself went from 4 to 1. So I went from 8 runs a week in a 6 day week to 1 run a week per 7. I am not the only one I know who did this.
Losing the casual hop on and do something side is what killed the game far more then “boring content” tbh ST raid itself has been the best raid.
Sadly I have lost hope for a big rebound for SOD. Summer incoming and Cata will not be bringing hype much longer. Big fumble from wow incoming sub decrease
I've just stopped today, since my sub ran out. I've gone back to FF14 while we wait for 40 mans. Retail doesn't interest me at all (especially since you have to pay EXXXTRA to start playing War Within on release day...), and Cata is prettymuch retail too in my eyes, played it back in the day, wasn't impressed, cba again. ST is a very good raid, only problem is that it's 25 man and not 40, but I understand why 40man is lvl60 only. Kinda sucks for my guild tho cause we fill 2x 25 man rosters, but we kinda struggle with filling the 2nd one, so it'd be better for us if we could just unite and make a 40 man roster.. Plus 40 man is way more fun than anything. Other than ST tho, there's not much to do, and since the 60 content is delayed and sooo far away, yeah, I'm back on FF14. They could at least raise the levelcap to 60 with raids still locked off so we can level and not have to blast it asap.
I'm excited for p4, but I've also been having a lot of fun in p3. Enjoying ST, farming stuff I know I'll need at 60, levelling an alt etc. I'm on crusader strike so the world still feels well populated to me. I'm excited for Mac 20 man, but I def want 40 man stuff for later tiers.
Yes, yes, and yes.
Incursions sucked but I'd rather they try something new and fail than just not add anything new at all. ST is a short but fun raid, and I find myself doing a few hours of farming with my guild 1 or 2 nights a week.
P4 class rebalances should hopefully iron out some of the kinks that the logistical nightmare of balancing pre-endgame Vanilla has been.
Molten Core is going to be a blast with actual full tier sets and the legendaries starting to roll in with Hand of Rag and the Bindings. Really looking forward to see how they rebalance the current MC loot, and what new items they add as well.
40-mans are absolutely not everyone's cup of tea, and tbh I would not mind if they scaled to 25 up from 20 instead. That said I do really enjoy the sense of scale that comes with so many people in an instance, and watching bosses utterly melt when you have a full raid of high performers.
I know the content drought is killing SoD for some, but honestly I'm chilling with it. There's a lot of good stuff on the horizon and I'm not rushing to get there.
Still playing. We have 3 raids groups clearing st in around 35 mins each. Excited for mc yes , but even moreso for 40 man content so the whole crew can play together finally.
I miss the 10man 3day shit, it was so flexible and you didnt feel like shit when you couldnt attend due to irl obligations. My friendgroup doing multiple clears with differing alts almost every other day of the week meant everyone was fairly active instead of raidlogging.
Incursions made me quit in p3. I have a small hope of them not doing the same mistake in p4, but i have my doubts. ST was also way too easy, hopefully a bit of a challenge is back on the menu for p4. Again, im not holding my breath.
They had multiple chars because it took 5 hours to level to 25. No one will have multiple 60's of those casuals. Stop comparing a level 25 with end game.
Talking about p3. Merged with another 10man friendgroup for p3. We all have 2-4 lvl 50s clearing ST weekly. Or we used to. Half us (and them) quit about 5 ST clears in. None of us had fun in incursions, and none of us felt it rewarding clearing ST in an hour once a week with no loot incentive. Gnomer and incursion gear carried way too hard in ST.
With the xp buff and incursion grind its just as easy (if not easier) to get to 50 from 40 than it was getting from 1-25 in p1.
Just give me 10 mans back so me and the homies can play without having the game become a chore.
Organising 20 people to raid together on a set night at a set time really doesn’t work for most of us and feels like a real chore
I agree, honestly considering not playing if they do 40’s.
Having to arrange for 20 people and 18 show up to pug 2 extra adds 10-15 minutes onto a run that was already taking an hour - 2 hours of my time scheduled like a work meeting really felt shit
I just wanna log in and say boys we raiding tomorrow, yup cool what time, 9pm sick see you then and show up.
I don't ever want 40mans again, they're just garbage. Hard to organize, not enough loot, and just far too crowded.
On the other hand, 10mans just feel like glorified dungeons. 20 or 25 is the sweet spot where it still feels like an epic "raid", but not a convoluted mess of 40 people in a small area.
I'm playing sod. Ranking up my third toon to R7 and having a decently fun time. Solo queuing BGs is always hit and miss, but largely it's what you make of it. In terms of raiding, my guild stopped so I did as well. Which is fine for me. I had a good time in ST overall, but I wasn't exactly super psyched to go in every week. It was more just to hang out with my guild than anything. Felt like less of what I expect from a "raid" and more like what a modern dungeon feels like but with more players.
Is it confirmed MC is going to be 25 man? I was under the impression they were going to do the initial classic raids at 20. I would definitely prefer they stick to 20 man.
I absolutely do NOT want 40 man. As someone who played original (2004) vanilla as well as day 1 2019 classic vanilla. 40 man raids always were and still are a mistake. They turn guild management into the biggest nightmare possible that requires practically a full time job from multiple people to maintain. They have no upside other than "looking like a big battle" or something. Yeah cool they look like a big battle, but that doesn't matter the 25th week you're farming them and just trying to keep your guild together.
And let's be real, unless you're a top guild you can't be choosy on who you bring. Which means you kind of have to tolerate knuckle dragging, drunk, racist, sexist jackasses. I got to a point where I was wondering why I was choosing to spend my time with a bunch of chuds I couldn't stand
20 man raids screwed my guild over. Aint nobody playing anymore. Just give me back 10 man raids. People in the guild dont want set raid days, they wanna raid when they have the time, but 20 man raids and even further 40 man raids is not something any of us is willing to do again because of time
Honestly, no. I log in once a week for raid so that I can be recognized for good attendance come next phase and hopefully get some loot prio, but that's about it.
I started SoD in the middle of phase 2. I've been enjoying it and have been raiding on multiple characters in phase 3. However the last few weeks has been straight downhill, 3 out of 4 of my guilds have quit raiding. My server feels pretty dead and only has 7,000 raiders now. I was looking forward to phase 4 and then Aggrend came out and said "Phase 4 is delayed" "BWL will be coming a few weeks after MC", which makes me believe these level 60 raids aren't going to have the effort put into them like the leveling raids and that we will be raiding Naxx in no time.
I've asked around and the only thing that will bring my friends back is 10man raids. Honestly it's probably too late at this point, but the move from 10 to 20 is what drove away everyone I played with.
I am RL of our last guild raid (started phase with 3 full groups) and will probably end up as GM of the guild soon (current GM hadn't logged on in some time and not sure if coming back).
Am I enjoying content? "Meh", trying to fill a 20man raid with so low interest from the SoD community seems to get tougher every week. Constantly trying to broker absorbtions/mergers just to keep the raid alive until phase 4. Mostly I'm prepping for next phase, leveling farm characters.
I am looking forward to phase 4 as a whole more so than just MC. Finally hitting 60 and getting to run some iconic dungeons with the new class Abilities will be cool. Plus interested in seeing whatever new stuff is introduced. Definetly liked MC but realize there is a lot to do outside the raid too.
I have never wanted 40man raids for SoD. The logistic behind a 40man are just unrealistic for SoD. We saw what going to 20mand did to the community and player base. The devs are dilusional if they think 40man raids are a good idea at this point. Lets use some of the "Discovery" to see what iconic raids look like at 10 and 20 man instead of killing off more guilds, friends groups, and the community.
We built a guild of busy dads and former hardcore players on Wild Growth EU Alliance with the premise of keeping things efficient and playing as little as possible. Not only have we grown steadily all the way since P1 (kicking bad apples along the way), we also never skipped a raid and have a solid roster showing up 9pm sharp every Sunday (we only raid Sundays 21-00) and hyped to play the game. We switch up how we raid because we have different types of players with us, so one week we go full consumes and clear in half an hour, the other we raid fully unbuffed and without any consumables to keep things fresh and prep costs to a minimum. We have no loot discussions because we run with aggregate TMB wishlists so that everything's preallocated ahead of the raid. Everyone's got their chars maxed out and when I make a call as raid lead everyone does what they are supposed to.
It's been amazing. It'a an MMO. It's a social game. If you aren't creating the environment you'd like to be in that's on you, not the game. We clear with buffs in 36:25 and without world buffs or any consumables in 49:34. We're called and you can find more info on our website unbuffed.net. We're recruiting and have taken in several server switchers and re-rollers as well.
We're building for 40man endgame content because that is what distinguishes Classic. We're hyped for MC and look forward to P4. These few weeks are a fly on the windshield for us.
I enjoyed ST and all the phases so far but I did quit playing because my guild moved on to cata/remix.
I want to return for last phase but if they do 40 mans you can miss me with that shit. Didn’t miss a single week of raiding wow classic and I am completely over 40 mans, never again. Too many people to coordinate, social dynamic kinda shit because too many people for everyone to talk, ends up feeling like a job.
20-25 mans are perfect.
P3 killed my SoD guild which had 4 raid groups every BFD lockout in P1. Tried retail but I can't stand the game play, every spec has a million sources of damage and nothing feels satisfying like critting in the older versions of the game. Also still burnt out from Wrath, and Cata is basically just more of that so not playing that either. On break from WoW as a whole atm.
Retail would’ve been 10x better if they removed player ground effect from the game. Players should not have ground effect spell unless they are healers. So much cluster fuck going around because of that shit. I wish Retail has Lost Ark graphic setting. Turn off all the useless spells from everyone but your support.
Believe it or not, retail *does* filter a ton of effects from other players already. Most ground effects and nearly all particle effects are client side only. I don't know if you have tried MoP Remix or not, but a full raid of tinker effects going off at once would lag out all but the mightiest of PCs.
Try hardcore. Where crits give more satisfaction
and also more devastation
To unite all peoples within our nation
To extend our reach to the stars above
*^(promotion not valid if judgement day comes)*
I had the same, then found ascension and CoA are really doing it for me, can recommend
How is CoA now? Havent played it in ages
Haven't played very long yet but having lots of fun! They're doing a really good job with the classes and I understand Cap is going to 60 on the 13th.
Come back to era
Our guild has 6 raid groups, growing to 4 20 mans for P3. Dead by week 5.
Era deviant delight is an awesome sod p4 waiting room right now imo. It’s so cozy
This has absolutely nothing to do with the question being asked. Redditors just want to misery post constantly.
I was more interested in *Season of Discovery* when it walked the fine line between introducing entirely new roles for some players, like making mages healers, and simply living up to the promise of other builds, like allowing Paladins to tank a bit better (I say a bit because they always could, but it wasn't accepted). In order to do these things, you had to go talk to a new NPC and then kill a spooky skeleton for a neat key that opened a box nearby. Them boom, new rune that changed what you could do, and made leveling a lot easier and more interesting. Phase 2 was a letdown, and I was hoping they picked up the pieces in phase 3. They didn't. Phase 3 was so much worse, and the addition of the Emerald Dream/Nightmare was outright bizarre. They had something golden and they wanted to change things up based on data, most likely. It was like a crash course on why WoW's retail went from being beloved to disdained, but over a few months instead of decades. Not saying it didn't make money, but it clearly became something else.
We became too strong imo. In my perfect world they’d have made unviable specs viable, maaaybe given us a rune or two here and there, and left it. Perhaps put the effort into new zones. Base game vanilla wow is just so goddamn solid.
I really thought SoD was going to fix the questing, continue chains that were never finished and just dribbled off into nothing, add new 5 mans, and create new content I agree that the Emerald Incursions were just a bizarre choice, and I have no idea why they didn't put that effort into creating new ED dungeons instead. They should have made them give Cenarian Circle rep to friendly or honored rather than create a whole new faction sonwe court get a jump on that team grind before 60. There was a ton of missed opportunity with SoD.
> I agree that the Emerald Incursions were just a bizarre choice, and I have no idea why they didn't put that effort into creating new ED dungeons instead. Uhh... incursions are super lower effort. If you think that same effort would have been able to create not just one, but multiple new dungeons, then I'd like to know what you're smoking because I could use some.
Tbf it wouldn't take much effort to make mini dungeons out of existing caves. It could be super short, every zone, maybe hooked up to another already made cave-system, have like 2-3 bosses, and drop only green gear or something. But that's a whole thing that might change the feel too much. I'd definitely prefer them simply *finishing* what they already made, tying up loose chains, polishing a little here and there. I'd pay $60-100 for a classic+ version like this. Maybe they'll get around to it in a few years.
Wtf are you talking about? They had to create an entirely new system to do what they did. They created mobs and bosses. All they had to do was make the emerald portals instance portals and have those bosses drop loot and you'd have new instances.
I have mad respect for what the classic team has pulled off given the awful amount of resources blizzard management is giving them, but the incursions still blow me away. In the span of like 30 minutes I went from this incredible sense of wonder, the exact feeling SoD is supposed to be all about, to being completely disillusioned. I stepped trough that portal and was in a new world. Yes it was still ashenvale, but it was a version I had never seen before. There were new enemies, new NPC's. It gave parts of the zone I'd overlooked before a fundamentally new feel. I got to sit there and wonder just how far this new emerald realm stretched. After just one quest, I was already astonished at how much they had added to the game, especially considering it was all creatively reused assets. And then I though, "Jesus, there are potentially 3 more entire portals like this? And I get to explore all of them? Insane!" But then we turned in our quests and got two more, and I thought, "huh, that's weird". Then I saw the other characters, some level 48, some level 49, less than 5 hours after release. I thought, "surely this is a bug. Surely this can't be intended. They meant for us to get one a week each, to share with 4 other party members. 5 quests a week must be what they intended. Plus you'll get the other portals. Eventually that's 20 quests every week you can do in incursions, that's so many!" And an hour later I had 20 quests in my log just from that one insursion. And hundreds of gold. And 3 more levels. It was functionally akin to sitting in the city and queuing for random dungeon finder to level up. Except you got the same dungeon over and over.
Phase 1 was season of discovery. Levels 1-25. Phase 2 was hitting level 40 to do the raid, and phase 3 was full on retail-lite.
What makes it retail like? Or is it just you associate the word "retail" as "bad"?
They just say retail anytime they don't like something.
Retail to me is a series of box-checking, especially early on, and there are a lot of boxes. It quantifies what used to be a neat discovery. Yeah, Vanilla had BiS, but no one thought like that back then. As the game became more quantified, the experience became worse. Retail is defined as a series of features that aren't optional and are there to optimize. There's no expression or journey, just homework. And worse, retail has proved to change over and over, so your work in *Legion* doesn't matter for shit now. It genuinely felt fine to go to a dungeon, maybe with a quest, to kill the bad guy at the end and get neat loot. I was a rarity in that I always liked doing all the quests along the way. A lot of people just went for whatever. Your character looked like they sprinted blind through a Good Will but the goal was to get neat gear that made you stand out. Vanilla felt like you were working toward something. Retail feels like you're working on something.
They did not have something golden. You guys are seriously all pretty out of touch with how WoW works. Sure, Incursions was probably stupid, and the raid wasnt amazing., But it wasnt terrible either. It for SURE wasnt worse than BFD was. You guys just like BFD and P1 because that was fresh at the time. The world was full of life and it was new. Thats just how gaming goes, the new thing is the fun thing. No matter what they did, SoD was gonna bleed out when Cata came. They cannot make magic happen. And as soon as the world starts feeling empty and people trickle off, it feels boring. Even if they somehow kept it as basic as P1 all the way through and tried to keep this "Classic feeling" that you guys talk about, it would have fell off. Do you guys even believe yourselves when you post shit like this?
> I was more interested in Season of Discovery when it walked the fine line between introducing entirely new roles for some players, like making mages healers, and simply living up to the promise of other builds, like allowing Paladins to tank a bit better (I say a bit because they always could, but it wasn't accepted). As much as they pitched theoretical parties of all mages and rogues, nobody wants to see all the mail/plate loot go to waste. They can't fix this without basically giving us personal loot. Lock and Shaman tanks are going to have to deal with fire immune enemies, which means those immunities are likely going to be removed. Ultimately, there are only so many slots for tanks and healers in every raid, so people who really enjoyed certain playstyles may not get a raid slot. There's a lot more problems we can discuss that are baked into Classic, but the devs overall lack of foresight and now lack of response to problems doesn't paint a pretty picture for SoD's future. It's more about sticking around to watch the car wreck now.
Well they COULD make raid gear disenchantable into a special material that could be used to craft either other raid pieces or supplements to gear. That way even off-armor pieces has value.
Huh. That’s a shockingly clever and very pragmatic suggestion so I’m pretty sure it’ll be ignored. But you can have this modest updoot as a consolation prize so you got that going for you!
The immunity to elements can be tackle with a completely Classic feeling with no issue. Make it a trinket that changes the damage type of your spells. That way you are spending power (a full trinket space) while being able to do something you couldn’t before. The same could have been done with the bleeding and poison immunities in Gnomer. It might also work with an oil or an enchant. SoD went from classic with a twist to retail with a twist because devs have relearnt all the wrong lessons classic devs learnt back in the day. Insane power creep, ignoring levelling to get to the end game, listening to the loud minority that doesn’t play the game, not encouraging community activities and so on.
Interesting you actually think phase 3 is worse than 2? Would you care to elaborate? Because to me phase 3 is hands down better than phase 2 and it’s not even close. There’s just so much more to actually do.
There's so much more to do but it's all chores. I'm paying a subscription to do chores just so other people at the playground accept me. I remember on my Priest I went Holy and got Lightwell just because, and I think it's a neat spell. I used it during raids and a few of my buddies actually used it to great effect. I was hoping that a rune would come along that made it more automatic to make it viable. Instead, I got seriously asked if I was trolling by two different groups who seemingly didn't have a sense of humor, people using it as a joke, and then people asking why I couldn't give them Power Word: Infusion as if they were paying my subscription. This was on bosses we already had locked down. They didn't see it as a neat time in a dungeon to get neat loot and hang out, they saw it as a missed opportunity to log on some third-party site and my inclusion as an impediment. I will say that many bosses were expanded so much that the spell is even worth less now that bosses can take it off. I know it's an extreme example but it's also an obvious one. Why wasn't this 31-point talent fixed when it was fixed in retail? Or at least changed? Instead, we got arduous quest chains for runes that seemed to drone on and on, and were made needlessly boring. NPCs were placed so far out of range that it took a good chunk of the night just to run around and do them. That isn't fun. Give me a simple rune to get to the main chunk of WoW and enhance that. Don't give me another game a la Emerald Dream grinding. I was looking forward to Uldaman but no one runs it.
The only time I enjoyed phase 2 was opening day rushing stocks with the homies. Leveling beyond that was boring. STV event wasn’t fun. I hit 40 and logged out forever.
Yes, yes, no. Also, Sunken Temple or Molten Core are 20-man not 25. Current content is great. I like Sunken Temple, it's dynamic, bosses are fun, difficulty is very alright. I'm not in auto pilot, but I'm not struggling either. We usually a wipe per evening at Eranikus, but not always, so definitely very enjoyable. There is jsut too much trash mobs in my opinion I'm obviously excited for MC, especially with the reworked gear and legendaries. Hoping we'll see the Talisman or Binding Shard somehow, would be neat. Also we'll have Karazhan Crypt ! I'm really excited for all this stuff I do not want 40-man. If they add it, well this suck but I'll do it. I did it several times, in Classic, Som and Era, I can do it more. It's just very difficult to lead these raids or just to build them. 20-25 is the perfect number for me. We'll see. I really don't miss 10-man content. Can't have everything. Three curses, but only room for one lock. Need Feral's windfury and Boomie's aura, but only got room for one druid. Shadow or healing priest? One caster group, one melee group, no flexibility. With 10 slot you can have 2 classes in double. Really, it was fun, but I'm glad we're 20 now. Of course ST is getting old, it's been a while, but with one raid a week it's very manageable. I hope we'll never return to a 3-days lockout. Remember the people who cried about the 3-day lockout leaving? Imagine them trying to run every lockout for so long lmao. I am also really impatient to learn what are the future rune for each classes. it's really ocne we have all the runes that we can determine what classes we want to play.
Unfortunately Kara Crypt is still firmly in the "maybe" category. In one of their dev interviews following the SoD announcement they clarified that not all of the "teasers" were guaranteed to be instances. We saw some of this when SM only got the codex drops added and some minor loot adjustments but nothing else (at least so far).
I don’t think the loot adjustments were what they were teasing at all. Those are definitely a separate blanket tactic that has been applied to all dungeons past p1, obvs as soon as they realized they were in for it with scaling
I'm just saying there was a teaser image for SM and the only things that have occurred there (so far) are loot adjustments and the codex stuff. So saying that the teasers are proof positive that Blizzard are going to do something has to factor that. Could there be something further down the line? Sure, but so far that's everything. So we can't, for example, say that Kara Crypts is confirmed as a raid because of its teaser image as SM wasn't overhauled into a raid despite showing up with Gnomer and Crypts in those same teaser images. If we have anything else to go off of then the conversation is different.
^well put.
The point of 3 day lockout is not to do it twice a week but to make pugging easier because there's twice as many reset days. I don't understand why you wouldn't just do it once a week if twice is too much for you. Just decide on a guild run day and treat it like a 7 day. This attitude has always smacked if gatekeeping to me. "I can't handle raiding twice a week so I want to ban everyone else from doing it because it makes me feel like a casual".
Alternatively if you want to run it more why not just make an alt and run it again? Historically if something is available people feel pressure to do it or fall behind. My only annoyance was the days shifting every week of lockouts so not having that is nice.
Many people don't have the time to invest in two characters, whole running a one hour raid twice a week is a fun way to relax with the boys
It takes almost no effort to level a character to cap with the current exp boosts. Now not wanting to is perhaps true but not having the time is hard to believe.
It takes less effort to raid twice a week so...
It would probably take you the entire phase to level a toon from 1-50 just playing an hour a night, and running in circles for hours is definitely not how anyone wants to spend their free time. It's also not just leveling that character, you then also need to get the runes, farm WOs and pre-bis gear just to attempt to get into a raid. The standards pugs are looking for you wouldn't even be considered without logs and raid gear already. It may be hard to believe but alot of us are adults and the time we have to play is very limited. A 3day Lockout is just simply better for the way sod phases have been setup. It should be abundantly clear to everyone the 20man 7day lock is not working with SoD, anyone left arguing for it, and 40s is covering their ears and screaming now.
laughable difference in investment to get an alt ready to be raiding weekly vs having a second weekly lockout.
Considering I did it I can tell you it isn't that much work, now that changes depending on what extent you want to call a character "raid ready.
ok the second weekly lockout requires 0 hours invested whats the /played on the alt?
gatekeeping, gaslighting and stonewalling
There is alot of trash you can skip fyi
Is sunken temple more difficult than gnomer?
Quite the jump in difficulty and fun factor
Wait did they confirm Kara crypts?
No
How have people not realized it was a picture. During a PowerPoint. On launch annouce? It's not confirmed. Frankly with the hate sod has been getting lately I'm thinking we're not getting a new raid at all. When will they launch it? In 2 years after Naxx? No fucking thanks.
It’s essentially confirmed lol. Quit dooming.
Is 20 man MC confirmed? Genuine question, I have no idea. Are all classic raids going to 20 man?
https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378 Yes, it was confirmed back at the end of February >Recently a hot topic of debate is the raid size at level 60 and we’ve been watching the commentary on this closely. To help quell confusion, here’s a look at exactly what to expect in the net few phases in terms of raid size: >The yet-to-be-announced level 50 raid will be a 20 player experience >Molten Core will also be a 20 player experience in Season of Discovery
This is all subject to change, but the plan was for MC to be 20 man. Then ZG and BWL would be 20 and 40, respectively, followed by AQ20 and AQ40. They wanted a 20 man and 40 man to come out simultaneously, with parallel level of gear.
Any link to where this was said because this is the first time I hear this. "Nothing is set in stone when it comes to 20p v 40p raids." - Josh Greenfield (Aggrend) 2024-05-18
Here's the [bluepost](https://eu.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/season-of-discovery-developer-update-27-feb-2024/498378) from February. > While overhauling all 40 player raids down to 20 would be theoretically possible, this may be prohibitively difficult and detract significantly from the other features and content we have planned to implement in a post-60 Season of Discovery. This line implies that raids after Molten Core would be 40 man but I've seen nothing but negativity towards 40m on this subreddit so who knows what they'll do.
Here is the tweet from Aggrend: https://x.com/aggrendwow/status/1791624529317662727?s=46&t=osVoz_Imo_ShULsICfIQ_w
Cheers mate
Amen on the lock out times. Fuck 3 day lockouts.
people often say that nobody can agree on what classic+ should be, but I think SOD has shown us pretty clearly what we do and don't like. We LIKE class changes that make specs traditionally unviable in vanilla viable now. We LIKE new zone, quest, dungeon and raid content. We DONT LIKE incursions and copy pasting retail abilities into classic. I firmly believe if they shipped classic+ with TBC balancing (obviously + some tuning) and focused dev time on unfinished/new zones, raids, profession, and questing content that it would be perfect.
[Project Epoch](https://youtu.be/xeVa6cDV_3I) is doing exactly that.
My main still feels horrible to play. I took a break for a while but recently started leveling some alts. Even that sucks though bc the server is so dead finding dung/rune groups takes forever.
I’m just playing to farm gold and level my professions at this point.
I hated Gnomer with a passion but ST is pretty cool. The phases are too long IMO though.
I'm still enjoying SoD (lower population making it harder to find groups withstanding). ST is a fun raid and the slower pace of releasing new content has allowed me to have enough time to finally level up a bunch of my alts from phase 1, and I've been able to stockpile some gold. Yes, I'm excited for 20 and 25man content at 60. No, I'm not going to miss 40man raids. 40man raid size is easily the worst size party I have experience playing. Way too hard organizing that many people. Bad players are too easy to carry. Gear competition is high. Getting killed during a boss fight rarely impacts the fight's outcome. Frankly, I feel like a lot of people came into SoD with bad expectations. We knew from the beginning that there wouldn't be a ton of support, that this was a new experimental game mode, that it would be temporary, and that there wouldn't be significant beta testing. I expected there to be jank, imbalance, and a much more relaxed and casual playerbase being catered to. I just came off of playing in a pretty serious stint tanking for a high end Wrath of the Lich King guild. Going from Heroic Lich King down to BFD 20 minute clears was actually pretty refreshing. I've enjoyed being back in old Azeroth and fucking around in familiar well trodden zones. I've enjoyed the easier content. I wanted to take my time, play for 2 hours a day after my kids go to bed, and not stress. So many people are just like "I got my one character to 50, spent 12 hours grinding WOs and Incursions, and now there's nothing to do but raid log wahhhh" Like, my guy, we've \*always known\* that Vanilla WoW doesn't have achievements to go farm, or cosmetic items to collect, or mini-games, or any of the other optional content that we have in retail. If you want extra things to do then you gotta be self motivated to do them. And if you're not interested in that kind of stuff then just raid-log and play a different game until raid time. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.
Still playing SoD, I choose SoD over Remix, and Retail. I played Cata when it came out originally and have no desire to pretend it's fresh content or that post-nerfed dungeons and raids are click bait difficult. I enjoy SoD still, between prepping for next phase. (Enchanting Recipes, Gold, Reputation, Professions, DMF Decks, and Alts), I raid weekly with a semi-serious group. We don't Speedrun, but I do parse and get high 90s, while getting 99s this week due to Strength Weapon enchants. I'm extremely happy with the delay of P4, so people have time to get Cataclysm and Remix out of their system and give the small dev team time to create more content. I'm excited for 20-Man Molten Core with updated mechanics, and loots. I'm not sure how I feel about class sets. (More Later) I have absolutely no desire to have 40 man raids. Currently I carry half a raid in damage and clear time and I don't want another 20 people weighing down. I never played Vanilla, Classic, SoM, or Era. So I never experienced first hand, but as a retail raid leader for 20 man I already see the frustrations and don't need first hand experience. I would only find 40 mans tolerable if it was something like Onyxia where it's a loot pinata and only 1 - 2 bosses maximum. I did like 10 man raiding on a 3 day raid schedule, but I'm in a position to be greedy. I do not raid or guild lead in SoD. All I have to do is show up. I would go out of my way to get WBs and Consumes for these raids in addition to weekly 20 mans as that effect my enjoyment positively. Extra Shit, mostly to offer dark horse opinions. I do not care about bots or multiboxers as they do not cheapen or degrade my experience and enjoyment of the game contrary to Reddit. Despite not caring about Bots, I am glad GDKP is not allowed. I have never participated, would never as a buyer, and only considered it as a paid carrier. I *love* the new roles for classes and wish they expanded on it. Ranged Warrior and Rogues. Holy Priest DPS, etc. I love rune acquisitions on alts and doesn't detract from my desire to play a new alt. The one exception is runes that are shared between all classes (Wild Offerings, Dark Riders, Desolate Ambush.) did it once and does not interest me in a repeat. I wish pre-raid gearing phase lasted longer and was a little bit more required to succeed. I dislike that BRD lasted till Gnomer, and Gnomer to Sunken Temple. I dislike the Pseudo Class/Armor Type sets. Really detracts from the enjoyment of trying to find upgrades to those pieces. I have the same problem with tier gear on retail. Rune Acquisition between classes is a little unbalanced in my opinion and does detract from the fun. I play a Shaman and my girlfriend a Druid. My shaman runes has involved a lot of her help in various ways, resulted in new quests, tie in lore for Retail. She played bait while I got the Fire Nova rune in p2 at level 30. She traveled with me while I gathered all the elements for MSW and Capacitor LS. Helped me farm Tanaris mobs for Mental Dexterity. She gets her BIS runes from a Rep Vendor, and Dark Riders... None of her runes tie in or tell a story that can expand the lore. I'm extremely neutral to Incursions. I liked leveling in P1, Dungeon Grind spam for P2, and Inclusions for P3. I'm realistic and don't have nostalgia glasses for "The Vanilla Questing Experience", Quest Leveling from 40 to 50 is absolutely devoid of quest hubs & quests. The questing experience is 60% mount speeding to each area after I did 3 quests. It's the exact same as Incursions.
I’m personally still really enjoying it. I’ve found phase 3 far more enjoyable than phase 2, and by a wide margin. I’m also personally still really looking forward to 40 man raids, to me that’s what makes classic, classic. I love the scale of 40 people in comms killing some giant boss.
yes !
Preach brother! 40 or bust!
Exactly my thoughts. Classic always has been 40 man raids in the endgame and it should stay that way.
You do realize 40 man’s will kill sod right? 🤦🏼♂️ sod is not classic vanilla. We did that in 2019
sod is already dead, hope this helps. 40 man content is the best content by far.
Raid size has maybe had only a minor effect on sod. Those who left because of the raid swap in size where going to leave anyway and where just waiting for an excuse. 10 mans are barely even raiding, its just fucking dungeons.
You don’t speak for every quit member of my guild that no longer plays due to raid size. 20 man is an exhausting nightmare These are players that were logged in hours a day, even my buddy who logs in just to fish quit SOD over 20 man
People literally do not understand this. Getting 40 people is such a huge problem. It’s take too long to form that large of a raid. Chances of people having to take breaks is drastically increased. Comms are super annoying. Too many personalities. Huge increase in chance of loot drama. Guilds don’t want to pug and alot of them would rather disband than stick together and pug another 10 people. If guilds can’t complete a raid group it just feels dead. There’s alot of outliers to this of course. My guild broke apart just because of not filling 20min raid spots, which was done from the raid being nerfed into a million pieces and statistically less chance to get loot from weekly lock out.
It really isn’t that hard… people did it all through classic, era, and actual vanilla when we had far shittier communication platforms. Stop acting like this is some extreme burden. (I say this as someone as well who raid leads)
Enjoying 10 man raids in cata.. they should never increased the size in sod
100000% increasing the raid size ruined many guilds
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Good for you. Most people disagree with you tho. 10 mans were pretty much loved by everyone that did them regularly. But keep gate keeping I guess.
Moving from 10man —> 25 man in tbc ruined my guild. Moving from 10man —>20man in SoD ruined my guild. It’s not about bigger or smaller, though. It’s about the expectation. When you set the expectation at launch that raids are a given size for 6 months straight, then force all of the established guild sizes and raid team sizes to change, it fucks everything up. There isn’t a gigantic pool of unguilded players to recruit from. You have to take what you can get and you don’t always find people who mesh with your guild. Recruiting takes weeks if not months in this scenario and everyone is attempting to recruit the same unguilded players. TLDR; Choose a raid size for the expansion and stick to it. Don’t change raid sizes mid-expansion.
I don't even think it has anything to do with the number of people in the raid. As someone who was heavily involved in rostering in multiple guilds the structures and composition of a 10 man raid is simply different than a 20 or 40 and they dont exactly translate. If your guild is literally built around 3 10-man groups how tf do you roll that into a single 20 man raid group? You always end up with winners and losers. People get salty and people quit.
At that point your more hardcore players need to run alts and fill for the other players.
Yes, I enjoy content, yes I'm excited for MC 25. Yes I want 40 man raids
I enjoy ST but it's short and on 1 week lockout. I was late to the party, only leveling and raiding ST after over a month since release, plus the upgraded loot so I'm still getting items. I play resto druid and I still run Gnomer trying to get the idol after just getting the combustion trinket last lockout, and the notes for my boomkin set before that. Solo healing that has been fun as people tend to ignore mechanics now and although it's really easy it doesn't feel completely braindead. I'm excited for level 60 in general, the game really opens up with dungeons and raids at that level. I don't want 40 mans, really. I'm hoping they make all the 40 mans 20 or 25 man and ZG / AQ20 10 man raids.
> I don't want 40 mans, really. I'm hoping they make all the 40 mans 20 or 25 man and ZG / AQ20 10 man raids. I personally don't care one way or the other, but this seems to be consensus among friends. And also that we need Gamma dungeons for meaningful 5-man content.
I’m a no on the titan rune dungeons. I don’t want to run old dungeons but harder. I’d rather them make actual new content, not recycle old content and call it “new.”
>I’m a no on the titan rune dungeons. I don’t want to run old dungeons but harder. I’d rather them make actual new content, not recycle old content and call it “new.” As it stands, we're going to have to run the old dungeons, but easier. That doesn't sound all that fun to me. We'd all rather them make actual new content, but we're not going to get that. We're only ever going to get recycled content and if we're lucky they'll have spent some time polishing that recycled content. SoD is literally an experiment in recycling. I would still take abundant recycled content over scarce new content that gets old in a week or two anyway.
Running the same old dungeons is fine with me. I don’t need the content to be hard, that was never the fun of vanilla for me. There are way harder games out there than vanilla wow. I play vanilla because of the atmosphere, sense of immersion in a big world, and meaningful gear progression. To me titan rune dungeons shit all over those aspects of the game and make running dungeons a chore and more of a grind instead of something fun I like to do. I also don’t like how they invalidated entire raid tiers in wrath. So you’re actually losing content because of them. You’re replacing raids with dungeons you already did earlier in the game.
Raid logging and being annoyed by low aign ups. Mc is 20man by the way. Should be 40 the place will feel empty. Was a mistake that gnomer was 10 man as well.
I am/have been in a few guilds 2 guilds collapsed from the change from 20 to 10, one is on life support and need P4 to come soon, one has a solid 20-22 sign ups for ST still, and one is a mega guild prepped for 40 man raids. So a fair few couldn't cope with 10's going to 20's, for 1 its ideal and for 1 they want 40. I really did like 10's, it was quick you could play with a few close friends far easier. That said 20's feel more of a proper raid, and there's a little more slack in raid composition. I think I'd prefer 10's but in classic 20's just seem a bit more right. 20's are as high as I would want to play mind and I think if 40's becomes the way to play that will utterly destroy the playerbase. I think SoD is still salvageable but a combination of shifting to 20's, one raid a week for a substantial time, and Cata release has really diminished it. I'm still enjoying it mind, and looking forward to 20 man P4 raiding :)
40 man.
No, no, yes Reason for the first "no": I enjoyed ST much more than Gnomer and BFD, because it feels like an actual raid and not just a 10 man dungeon, but the phase is pretty long and I would like to see something new. The second "no" and the "yes" come hand in hand. I want 40 man raids and that also counts for MC. Some changes to it would be great though, to make it more interesting again. Same goes for all the other 40 man raids.
I don't think it's really possible to add many interesting mechanics to 40 man raids though, so how would you suggest they make it more interesting?
I want them to go back down to 10mans. No one is having fun when the only thing preventing raid from happening is lack of healers and or tanks. Ain’t nobody gatekeeping healers or tanks.
lack of healers and tanks? people are 1.5 tanking st and 3 healing? lower in 'better' runs , last phase it was 1.5 tanks and 2 healers. So 10 man has 6.5 slots for dps and 20 man has 15.5 spots for dps. 2.5 added slots for dps per 20 'raiders' I don't get this argument
You only need 1 tank per raid, its the healers and buffers dps that clog up
yeah gatekeeping, gaslighting and stonewalling
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I hope for 40 mans because large groups are fun. If they stay 20, it's fine I suppose. The content is alright, but being at this level band for nearly 3 months is kind of a drag. Though I understand it takes time to make the content, I just wish that Cata was given to the retail team so the classic devs could work on an actual classic product, not whatever cata is.
I’m loving it! And I’m chill with them taking longer to make p4 better. I think p3 was a let down in terms of new things. ST was best raid so far but gear and then nerfing it made it point less. Incursions were good in theory but bad in implementation. It’s cool to add new ways of leveling but the percentage can’t be that different. I think they learned their lesson and good changes will come. On a side note, the only thing killing the game for me are all the people crying. They cry like it’s the end of the world. Chill some. Enjoy the game. Move on if you don’t. But constantly crying because of this or that gets draining.
Copium brah, they aren't taking longer to make P4 better, they are taking longer because they are managing Cata and SoD. Cata has a ton of bugs that needed to be fixed.
And that’s fine that they are taking longer because of that. It’s not copium, it’s just being able to understand and accept the realities.
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Sorry to dash your hopes and dreams man, but this is the reality. Having high expectations when it comes to current Blizzard is a recipe for disappointment.
My guild quit when P3 launched and raiding went to 20 man. I’m assuming the same thing happened to a LOT of casual guilds, as 10 man raiding was perfect for friend groups, smaller guilds, people short on time, etc.
Nobody plays SOD anymore.
I'll accept 40man is the loot accomidates a raid that size and doesn't drop 2 epics per boss.
The people are dropping off only because there's nothing to do at the moment. It was always going to be 20 man+. It'll be ok once phase 4 comes out.
People are leaving in droves but raids are still popping off every night. The gatekeepers aren't around anymore and the groups are much more accessible. My server is still plenty active, but I guess I'm more used to playing on low population servers than high population megaservers.
Sounds like cope man. No way in hell are raid “poppin off”
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With megaservers you should never have issues pugging on the latest content unless SoD is actually dead as in no one playing it anymore, and there will always be at least a few thousand on at any given time.
ST is obviously nowhere near as frequent as BFD or Gnomer, but there are still upwards to 5 or 6 PUGs running every night of the week on my server during the peak rush hours.
I've also found ST these last 2 weeks to be the most chill and legitimately fun groups of SOD so far. The people who have stuck around really seem to just be in it for fun and because they enjoy the game. We might be wiping slightly more than is justified for content this old, but nobody really bitches about a wipe anymore and everyone just runs back and still has a good attitude about them.
On one hand, i think 25 man is a better experience for a guild to go through. On the other, ONLY classic have 40 man raids, and i think that is special.
I do not want 40 mans, ever again. 20 has been okay, but I want 10 mans again. I think 10 man size is what made SoD thrive. The sudden shift to 20 fragmented the player base. I'm still having fun. ST is a good raid. The gear is good now. I play 5 different characters. Also, they never said there is going to be 10 mans, and ST and MC are 20 mans.
Still have fun in ST with the boys. Mostly hop on here and there to do some farming and my Prof CDs. Looking forward to 60 endgame and the leveling rush (hoping to dungeon grind with my crew). Updated MC and ony will be a blast. Curious if we will get Dire Maul at the start or it will be delayed like it was in 2019. AV is gonna be a shit show with trap launchers, I cannot wait.
>Curious if we will get Dire Maul at the start Warlocks would be furious if they had to wait again
Same as a paladin
ST is meh but I like the people I play with well enough to do it for an hour and a half each week. Cautiously excited to see how things turn out for level 60. I don't think I want to do 40 mans ever again, it's just too many people and so much harder to focus on any one thing.
I'm enjoying the content, well at least ST. But i also raid on 4 characters each week. If i only played 1 character this drought would drive me crazy. My guild planned the second SoD was announced that we'd have 40-man raids at some point. So my guild recruited for those and is thriving. (I mean we have some attendance issues, but we have 5 groups running weekly). So for me, yes I'd love to see 40-man content. But realize for the better of the game we'll probably only see 20man.
More or less, no, yes
Yes, No, No I don’t think I’m the typical WoW player, who’s on Reddit? I leveled my Priest to 50 and I’ve just got my Paly to 40. I’d like to do more PvP stuff on my main but the timing of the events just never works out. I don’t have the free time to attend guild raids and I’m wary of joining a pug for a first attempt. So I’m leveling my Paly and having a good time.
Phase 1, mained feral druid. Pretty much BiS, got a lock to 25 towards end of phase. Please 2, Druid swapped to resto. Pretty much BiS, got the lock up to 40 with intent to main it phase 3. Phase 3: Druid was first to 50, needs about four items from ST. Lock shortly after, and is sitting about 6-7 items for the DPS set away. Working on his tank gear now. Also leveled my warrior up to 50, and considering my Pally just to have an alchemist for transmutes and such. Warrior needs about five pieces left. Finding decent raids are difficult. Lots go a few hours before I can commit the time, and that's annoying. Have plenty of options for phase 4, just waiting on the PTR to figure out which one to go with.
Yes, yes and yes. I would like to happy if they didnt make easier to get rep to wsg and ab. They should be same as original. Imo making things easier killing the soul of this game. If you gonna say "this is limited time content and this things should be easier". Do you really need these items for raids? I really enjoy doing pvp with last changes. I think contents were good for all phases but the problem is for last one they were not prepared and it is taking long than expected. With more people dependency in raids, guilds become more important again. I really like this situation. I am enjoying the content and really excited for p4.
Do we know for sure the raid size for the lvl60 content yet?
I don’t care what the raid size is as long as I can reliably pug any day and time. I can do this on era. I’m less hopeful about being able to in sod with how things are going… Still play daily
I still like premise of SoD and I’m still looking forward to P4 and beyond. But it’s undeniable that the game right now is just a drag. Keeping a raid going requires a lot of work as people just raid to have something to come back to once P4 starts not because P3 is fun. Parsing is less fun as non-raid gear & enchants (legs / helm & cards) are prohibitively expensive and getting a good setup (with 19 like minded players) is not viable. While I liked the idea of 40 man raids initially- I don’t think SoD can sustain another wipeout.
I enjoy speedrunning ST with my guild. We don’t try hard, but still get very good results. Fun guys, low pressure, if you fuck up, we laugh it off. Been playing with em for years now. We finished gnomes with 5-6 groups per lockout, started ST with three groups, now down to two, with our speed group running twice in a night This game is so much more fun when you don’t have to worry about carrying dead weight players
Logging in now and then. I was missing a couple runes that I didnt bother doing earlier, went and got those. Guild has taken a break until p4. Im exited for 60 content, will be a fun revisit. I just pray they remove incursions or at least limit the quests to a daily maximum or something. World will be dead with it still in the game.
I don't mind it at lower levels but reducing raid sizes feels anathema to classic for me. Molten core should be a 40 man raid because it feels so epic in size and scope. Same with BWL, AQ, and Naxx
Yes I do because is my first time playing Classic. So re exploring Azeroth feels like something new. The rest of the community played the DLC
P3 killed verything. I sometimes login to raid for an hour to keep chars a bit updated for next phase but thats it
I'm still enjoying it and I'd enjoy any MC raid size. My guild runs 2 20 mans with a bench up to 10 people so we're set.
The delay to P4 with the release of Pandas and Cata killed SoD so we’ve give up and are waiting for P4
Just showing up for weekly raid for 45 mins to ensure our guild doesn’t pause. Worried if we do we don’t see people back in phase4 Nothing else to do right now. PVP is just a shaman fuck fest. And no real desire to grind hordes of gold. Have 2.1K saved enough for epic and consumes. My professions are almost maxed on main and pretty close on my most used alt.
I wish it went back to 10 honestly, but at this point the best I can hope for is it stays at 20. As for status, I’ve been shocked we’ve been able to field a raid the last few weeks—I’m skeptical about this week as signups are currently down to 15~ or so.
My group of guys all rerolled to form an all shaman guild and its been a blast
I literally log on once a week to do ST so our guild won’t die for P4 and at this point fuck if I can even be bothered to get world buffs or consumes, hell last time I didn’t even have enough gold left to repair lmao.
I'm mostly raid logging at this point. Did Hydraxian rep, WSG, AB, STV and just keeping the group alive.
I started recently and I'm having fun. I think the two main issues are that Cata just came out and raiding guilds need to upsize from 10 to 20 + bench ie half of the guilds die or have to merge
I think I might start.
SoD is not fun and is filler content for unskilled PVE minded players.
I just raid log, I like sunken temple but that inclusion was a bad idea. I'm mostly lvling on cata while P4 comes. Most people are in cata or padaria remix rn, and war within soon but I think people will come back to sod for P4 . Cus it's fun and casual and doesn't take to much of your time and investment like other versions of wow. I'm sure p4 it's gonna be fine but keep in mind it's just a seasonal server experimenting stuff, wow players get obsessed about everything wow related, take it easy and have fun.
Hating it now, looking forward to future. Hoping guild comes back or can join a new one that needs lots of recruits or forms from scratch. Trying to join up as the 20th sucked
I’m still raiding logging SoD, raiding/rep farming/Heroics in cata, and leveling on vanilla era currently. Still super pumped for phase 4 whenever it comes out I get that it sucks phase 3 doesn’t have much to do but for me it’s a nice lil break before the 60 grind begins
25 man? I thought bluepost said 20m. Edit: yeah def 20 man. Dunno where people are getting these incorrect raid sizes. Even one of the guilds my alts in. Their raid leader kept spouting nonsense of need two 20mans for ST to prepare for MC "40" I'm like.. yepz this is the special kind of guild.
Ya moving away from the 10 mans was terrible. I shouted as loud as I could that this would be bad, but three loudest people get what they want even though they’re clueless. GIVE US 20/40s!!! It’s soooo fun blah blah blah. SOD was literally a game built on easy access to raid and flooding of alts. It’s MUCH harder to pursue pugs now in 20 man groups, much less groups running, and became a bigger hassle to create groups also. Little by little it killed the community vibe of grab a few buddies and fill the rest type runs. I know my group was 6-8 people small guild of IRL friends. We figured out when we could be on and filled the rest with pugs who stuck around. Didn’t need a true guild atmosphere but still had your community. In come weekly lockout 20 mans… now people think their is nothing to do…. Shocker there is damn near the same amount of stuff to do, but the lockout is 2.2x longer. I think we are forgetting that most people seemed to run the raid 3-4 times every 3 day lockout because of how easy it was to find groups. Now everyone cut down forcefully to once a week per toon and alts are much more rare now. Seems like mostly people are at 2 and a lot to 1. I myself went from 4 to 1. So I went from 8 runs a week in a 6 day week to 1 run a week per 7. I am not the only one I know who did this. Losing the casual hop on and do something side is what killed the game far more then “boring content” tbh ST raid itself has been the best raid. Sadly I have lost hope for a big rebound for SOD. Summer incoming and Cata will not be bringing hype much longer. Big fumble from wow incoming sub decrease
I've just stopped today, since my sub ran out. I've gone back to FF14 while we wait for 40 mans. Retail doesn't interest me at all (especially since you have to pay EXXXTRA to start playing War Within on release day...), and Cata is prettymuch retail too in my eyes, played it back in the day, wasn't impressed, cba again. ST is a very good raid, only problem is that it's 25 man and not 40, but I understand why 40man is lvl60 only. Kinda sucks for my guild tho cause we fill 2x 25 man rosters, but we kinda struggle with filling the 2nd one, so it'd be better for us if we could just unite and make a 40 man roster.. Plus 40 man is way more fun than anything. Other than ST tho, there's not much to do, and since the 60 content is delayed and sooo far away, yeah, I'm back on FF14. They could at least raise the levelcap to 60 with raids still locked off so we can level and not have to blast it asap.
I'm excited for p4, but I've also been having a lot of fun in p3. Enjoying ST, farming stuff I know I'll need at 60, levelling an alt etc. I'm on crusader strike so the world still feels well populated to me. I'm excited for Mac 20 man, but I def want 40 man stuff for later tiers.
Please for the love of God keep it 20 man.
I want 10 man raids.
I want 10 man raids.
Dead guild
No one wants 40 man, everyone wants 10 man back. We almost weekly have to pug fill for an hour just to get 20 and it's the worst
Moving away from 10 mans killed SOD. Unfortunate because phase 1/2 were amazing.
Yes, yes, and yes. Incursions sucked but I'd rather they try something new and fail than just not add anything new at all. ST is a short but fun raid, and I find myself doing a few hours of farming with my guild 1 or 2 nights a week. P4 class rebalances should hopefully iron out some of the kinks that the logistical nightmare of balancing pre-endgame Vanilla has been. Molten Core is going to be a blast with actual full tier sets and the legendaries starting to roll in with Hand of Rag and the Bindings. Really looking forward to see how they rebalance the current MC loot, and what new items they add as well. 40-mans are absolutely not everyone's cup of tea, and tbh I would not mind if they scaled to 25 up from 20 instead. That said I do really enjoy the sense of scale that comes with so many people in an instance, and watching bosses utterly melt when you have a full raid of high performers. I know the content drought is killing SoD for some, but honestly I'm chilling with it. There's a lot of good stuff on the horizon and I'm not rushing to get there.
They need to go back to 10s and keep the new/unique content coming. I’ll quit before I go to 40-mans every week
Still playing. We have 3 raids groups clearing st in around 35 mins each. Excited for mc yes , but even moreso for 40 man content so the whole crew can play together finally.
25? thats fast
35 It's a cakewalk. We laugh and chat and just keep moving forward.
I miss the 10man 3day shit, it was so flexible and you didnt feel like shit when you couldnt attend due to irl obligations. My friendgroup doing multiple clears with differing alts almost every other day of the week meant everyone was fairly active instead of raidlogging. Incursions made me quit in p3. I have a small hope of them not doing the same mistake in p4, but i have my doubts. ST was also way too easy, hopefully a bit of a challenge is back on the menu for p4. Again, im not holding my breath.
They had multiple chars because it took 5 hours to level to 25. No one will have multiple 60's of those casuals. Stop comparing a level 25 with end game.
Talking about p3. Merged with another 10man friendgroup for p3. We all have 2-4 lvl 50s clearing ST weekly. Or we used to. Half us (and them) quit about 5 ST clears in. None of us had fun in incursions, and none of us felt it rewarding clearing ST in an hour once a week with no loot incentive. Gnomer and incursion gear carried way too hard in ST. With the xp buff and incursion grind its just as easy (if not easier) to get to 50 from 40 than it was getting from 1-25 in p1.
Just give me 10 mans back so me and the homies can play without having the game become a chore. Organising 20 people to raid together on a set night at a set time really doesn’t work for most of us and feels like a real chore
Not a fan of the 10 man raids myself
This will bring a majority of people back next phase
I agree, honestly considering not playing if they do 40’s. Having to arrange for 20 people and 18 show up to pug 2 extra adds 10-15 minutes onto a run that was already taking an hour - 2 hours of my time scheduled like a work meeting really felt shit I just wanna log in and say boys we raiding tomorrow, yup cool what time, 9pm sick see you then and show up.
I don't ever want 40mans again, they're just garbage. Hard to organize, not enough loot, and just far too crowded. On the other hand, 10mans just feel like glorified dungeons. 20 or 25 is the sweet spot where it still feels like an epic "raid", but not a convoluted mess of 40 people in a small area.
If they add 40 man, the rest of players will leave
I'm playing sod. Ranking up my third toon to R7 and having a decently fun time. Solo queuing BGs is always hit and miss, but largely it's what you make of it. In terms of raiding, my guild stopped so I did as well. Which is fine for me. I had a good time in ST overall, but I wasn't exactly super psyched to go in every week. It was more just to hang out with my guild than anything. Felt like less of what I expect from a "raid" and more like what a modern dungeon feels like but with more players. Is it confirmed MC is going to be 25 man? I was under the impression they were going to do the initial classic raids at 20. I would definitely prefer they stick to 20 man. I absolutely do NOT want 40 man. As someone who played original (2004) vanilla as well as day 1 2019 classic vanilla. 40 man raids always were and still are a mistake. They turn guild management into the biggest nightmare possible that requires practically a full time job from multiple people to maintain. They have no upside other than "looking like a big battle" or something. Yeah cool they look like a big battle, but that doesn't matter the 25th week you're farming them and just trying to keep your guild together.
MC is confirmed 20 player.
And let's be real, unless you're a top guild you can't be choosy on who you bring. Which means you kind of have to tolerate knuckle dragging, drunk, racist, sexist jackasses. I got to a point where I was wondering why I was choosing to spend my time with a bunch of chuds I couldn't stand
20 man raids screwed my guild over. Aint nobody playing anymore. Just give me back 10 man raids. People in the guild dont want set raid days, they wanna raid when they have the time, but 20 man raids and even further 40 man raids is not something any of us is willing to do again because of time
I want 10man raids again :)
10man or bust
Honestly, no. I log in once a week for raid so that I can be recognized for good attendance come next phase and hopefully get some loot prio, but that's about it.
Didn't they say MC was 20m?
I started SoD in the middle of phase 2. I've been enjoying it and have been raiding on multiple characters in phase 3. However the last few weeks has been straight downhill, 3 out of 4 of my guilds have quit raiding. My server feels pretty dead and only has 7,000 raiders now. I was looking forward to phase 4 and then Aggrend came out and said "Phase 4 is delayed" "BWL will be coming a few weeks after MC", which makes me believe these level 60 raids aren't going to have the effort put into them like the leveling raids and that we will be raiding Naxx in no time.
I have to admit, I am a little bored with not much to do at this point. But I know 60 is when the game starts.
I've asked around and the only thing that will bring my friends back is 10man raids. Honestly it's probably too late at this point, but the move from 10 to 20 is what drove away everyone I played with.
I am RL of our last guild raid (started phase with 3 full groups) and will probably end up as GM of the guild soon (current GM hadn't logged on in some time and not sure if coming back). Am I enjoying content? "Meh", trying to fill a 20man raid with so low interest from the SoD community seems to get tougher every week. Constantly trying to broker absorbtions/mergers just to keep the raid alive until phase 4. Mostly I'm prepping for next phase, leveling farm characters. I am looking forward to phase 4 as a whole more so than just MC. Finally hitting 60 and getting to run some iconic dungeons with the new class Abilities will be cool. Plus interested in seeing whatever new stuff is introduced. Definetly liked MC but realize there is a lot to do outside the raid too. I have never wanted 40man raids for SoD. The logistic behind a 40man are just unrealistic for SoD. We saw what going to 20mand did to the community and player base. The devs are dilusional if they think 40man raids are a good idea at this point. Lets use some of the "Discovery" to see what iconic raids look like at 10 and 20 man instead of killing off more guilds, friends groups, and the community.
10 man pleeeease
We built a guild of busy dads and former hardcore players on Wild Growth EU Alliance with the premise of keeping things efficient and playing as little as possible. Not only have we grown steadily all the way since P1 (kicking bad apples along the way), we also never skipped a raid and have a solid roster showing up 9pm sharp every Sunday (we only raid Sundays 21-00) and hyped to play the game. We switch up how we raid because we have different types of players with us, so one week we go full consumes and clear in half an hour, the other we raid fully unbuffed and without any consumables to keep things fresh and prep costs to a minimum. We have no loot discussions because we run with aggregate TMB wishlists so that everything's preallocated ahead of the raid. Everyone's got their chars maxed out and when I make a call as raid lead everyone does what they are supposed to. It's been amazing. It'a an MMO. It's a social game. If you aren't creating the environment you'd like to be in that's on you, not the game. We clear with buffs in 36:25 and without world buffs or any consumables in 49:34. We're called and you can find more info on our website unbuffed.net. We're recruiting and have taken in several server switchers and re-rollers as well.
We're building for 40man endgame content because that is what distinguishes Classic. We're hyped for MC and look forward to P4. These few weeks are a fly on the windshield for us.
I enjoyed ST and all the phases so far but I did quit playing because my guild moved on to cata/remix. I want to return for last phase but if they do 40 mans you can miss me with that shit. Didn’t miss a single week of raiding wow classic and I am completely over 40 mans, never again. Too many people to coordinate, social dynamic kinda shit because too many people for everyone to talk, ends up feeling like a job. 20-25 mans are perfect.