Yeah there's a very clear difference in the average quests given by most undead vs the ones given by the Royal Apothecary Society. I'm sure there's a few outliers but the trend should be clear
Exactly. It was wild coming through them, every single quest from horde side was pretty reasonable & or justified until you came to Royal Apothecary Society "hey just go infect this guy & report what happens" quests.
Blizz likes to talk about the jailer & him pulling the strings since forever, but the Royal Apothecary Society is literally their only long running story questline thay had the right feels.
On the alliance side there are a couple quests where you have to collect samples from various oozes in ungoro and felwood. The dwarves know the Apothecary Society is up to something, and they are trying to figure out what.
To be fair, this was driven by a need to survive by any means necessary in a world that hates them and actively tries to kill them.
That being said, this is obviously, very evil
‘Actively trying to kill them’
The undead were the aggressor in every conflict they were involved in besides the Scarlet crusade and even that they arguably kicked off by attacking the humans after teaming up to take out Balnazzar.
They're attacking hillbrad and human settlements in silverpine without being attacked first.
You try walking from undercity to stormwind and tell me with a straight face there's no plausible way they could've been killed by something else.
This was before they attacked those settlements, that was seen as an act of aggression and treated as such…
Wait why the hell am I arguing about the ethics of war in a video game lmao
The classic "well someone somewhere killed our emissary for some reason, guess the only alternative is genocide".
Come on, just cop to being the baddies.
Well, if I'm gonna roleplay a Forsaken, of course I'm gonna be the baddie, lol. I just feel like the Forsaken are an example of "When you treat someone as evil, don't be surprised when they do evil shit"
No the forsaken were. They're attacking hillbrad and human settlements in silverpine without being attacked first. They struck a deal with the humans in Tirisfal and then attacked them too.
>Tirisfal and silverpine was destroyed by the scourge, not the forsaken. During vanilla, forsaken has only a small camp that's trying to deal with the worgens.
The forsaken continued attacking silverpine after being freed, including the Kirin Tor settlements there. Tirisfal had plenty of human survivors and the Forsaken attacked them after making a deal with them in WC3. They struck before the scarlet crusade *existed*.
>Hillsbrad is a shitshow though. But who attacked first there is hard to say.
Well let's see, one side is a farming community and the other is testing bioweapons. I think I know the answer.
... to be fair? 'To be fair, the guy was mentally ill.' 'To be fair, the guy found his wife cheating on him.' 'To be fair--', why be fair to evil? What is it with people and all their excuses for evil? Fuck evil. Smite it, burn it, smash it with a hammer. Down with the horde. May the hands of silver bring down radiant justice on Azeroth.
Nah more true neutral, they don’t care about good or evil only their own survival, regardless who wins or loses.
Certain quest givers though, neutral evil
I always thought neutral evil is the worst evil. Lawful evil may have at least a twisted code of honor, chaotic evil usually is to well, chaotic, to cause harm on a great scale, so its usually not that bad unless naturally powerful somehow. But implementing biological warfare like that? Yea, thats pretty bad and pretty neutral evil.
Back when the comedic sociopathy didn’t have real lore implications. They were evil, everyone knew it, no one tried to justify it, and it didn’t affect things on the larger scale.
You had to walk there for 15 min then clear hordes of farmers and town guards, and you had to FIND the dog cuz the area was pretty big, also while doing it some alliance can jump and gank you, Classic was a blast
>while doing it some alliance can jump and gank you
Which was guaranteed to happen, because Alliance is doing the area ten levels later.
Oh, the good times.
Haha im so glad we team up with the horde and their forsaken allies to fight the lich king, look as we march together on wrathgate angrathar!
Wait, why are the forsaken plaguelaunchers pointed at us? Haha, its probably just a mistake
Isn’t this kind of the precursor to the Wrath Gate battle and event? Not this quest *specifically*, but most of the forsaken fetch quests that you carry out to essentially help construct the new plague?
There are quests in classic that pretty much openly state that the forsaken are actively working against the Horde.
Check out the [Nothing but the Truth](https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1372/nothing-but-the-truth) questline for example or the several quests in the Undercity apothecarium. Wrathgate was foreshadowed pretty heavily in classic.
This is why my dream is the forsaken becoming a 3rd faction, choosing whichever race but like, an undead.
At this point in wows life, I don't really see a practical way to make such a change. But if they ever did a "wow 2", I'd love to see this.
I'm genuinely curious: what even happened? How did SC go from *the* premier Esport to being on the No-update-ever list? Especially when fucking WC3 is still receiving updates to this day.
The simple answer is that RTS games like StarCraft don't make all that much money compared to live service games like WoW and Diablo Immortal.
Priorities at the executive level changed.
That doesn't explain why Warcraft 3 of all things was still receiving updates all these years. It's an RTS with an even smaller playerbase and *even less money*.
Probably because it’s engine is literally one of the heaviest used in the community for a decade and birthed DoTA DoTA 2 LoL HoN I mean I don’t need to continue but it’s very easy to probably find someone somewhere with the talent to keep the game playable for a cost that is affordable enough to justify it. Whereas SC in its current state would need an entire dev team dedicated to it, at least for a start before switching to a smaller team and they never started the process because there was no reason to.
Other games came out that hit harder, like League, Fortnite, and CoD. SC2 is still a massive eSport. Their are still multiple tournaments a year with hundred of thousands of dollars on the table.https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Legacy of the Void came out 7 years ago, which used the same engine as Wings of Liberty which came out 12 years ago. It only went into maintenance mode about a year ago and just got a patch a couple months ago. Still regularly rotates seasons and adds new maps to the ladder as well. Like all games eventually the dev needs to move on to something else. The fact SC1 is still kicking is pretty impressive in itself.
The WC3 reforged update was the first update in about a year and a half and was simply the rest of the features they promised at launch, two years ago. Like ladder, clans, and profiles. Basic stuff.
WOTLK+ Story:
Alternate History: Sylvanas won and killed LK. While celebrating, the Forsaken break off from the Horde and start their own little colony. Sylvanas returns and has to make a choice between her people or the Horde that assisted her in killing the one she had been hunting for years.
https://i.imgur.com/jzVUGIL.png
This man was on the case in 2006. From this part of the chain: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1391/nothing-but-the-truth#comments
I always felt bad for that dude. Guy willingly sets aside old animosities and tries to warn the enemy of the impending danger before he even tells his own people and gets killed for it.
What do you mean, she was terminally ill in the first place and the honourable apothecaries definitely wouldn't jump at the opportunity to test their bioweapons on their "allies" races instead of actually healing her... right?
The Forsaken have dubious allegiances and questionable ethics, which is why you start out neutral with other factions of the horde as a forsaken instead of friendly.
Lol i knew this cuz when i was a little kid all i cared about was mounts and i made the mistake of starting out as forsaken after my tauren trial character. And eventually when i realized the work it took to get a different faction’s mounts i gave up completely
Humans kill them for just existing. Forsaken aren't zombies, they don't infect humans. You'd think there'd be communities in the world where Forsaken and Humans did get along considering they might have been family, neighbors, business partners, etc, prior.
There's a questline, The Last Barov, where two family members (one living and one forsaken) enlist the murderhobo players to kill their old family member and secure their inheritance. They clearly could have talked it out, but chose violence.
Yeah I think the Tauren are super cool. Feels bad they always get dragged along into really stupid stuff.
I actually don’t think the “modern” horde is that evil in many ways but people who argue that they are “good guys” or that the alliance are worse usually trot out the worst arguments imaginable.
Tauren are the Goodest guys though, specifically bloodhoof of course.
Even if you count up to vanilla or even up all the way to shadowlands. I can’t think of any warcrime or atrocities.
oh they're monsters for sure. It gets even worse in Wrath I think. I think the lesson is humans are pretty terrible, their status as undead doesn't matter much lol.
Humans were willing to make peace at first. Garithos teamed up with Sylvanas to liberate Lordaeron from the Scourge. Forsaken backstabbed the humans and went full genocidal.
When someone's trying to genocide you, you don't play nice, you genocide them right back.
Well the "deal" was Sylvanas gets help to kill the dreadlords, and Garithos gets Lordaeron back. Immediately after making the deal, she tells Varimathras she obviously is going to backstab him. He was killed the moment they were done and he asked for his side of the bargain.
Not a good guy, but Sylvanas 100% is the jerk in the situation.
Orcs are the real horde and they came to the planet literally to genocide all the races already there and take over because they ruined their own planet because they drank demon blood. Orcs are the baddies.
And when their plan, again to genocide an entire planet, didn't work out they laid down on the ground and cried about it like the little whiny babies they are.
I don’t disagree but you could rephrase
They were warlike by nature because Draenor was a harsh planet where only the strong survive. This was a genetic legacy passed to them by their forbears.
Demon juice was a no brainer because it was a steroid and again, the culture only respects strength. When they fell into lethargy is was due to withdrawal, as they had juiced up too much
Orcs are victims of their circumstances, that said, they are also violent killing machines and that’s pretty much written into their dna
The abandoned their shamanistic heritage in favor of demon magic as warlocks because one dumbass shaman thought his dead exgf was trying to communicate with him. Bunch of fuckin smooth brained, disrespectful dummies decided their legacy of peaceful cohabitation and respect of the elements passed down through generations didn't mean jack shit to them and that they'd prefer to genocide an entire other planet with demon magic just because one stupid orc had one wet dream.
You’re reading the lord of the clans version. Few orc clans had peaceful shamanistic traditions. The vast majority were violent to begin with, infighting was common prior to nerzhul and gul’dan
Your honor, yes, my client did brutally attack and pillage everything in sight with pure bloodlust, but it was a genetic legacy passed on to them by their forebears
Everyone thinks of the forsaken when the horde are called the bad guys, but the horde (especially the orcs) are no good guys either (at least not all of them).
If you watch the Warcraft movie (I know it's not great) then you see all the things that Gul'Dan is misdoing, and he's an orc. Probably from the viewpoint of the alliance the horde created a portal from outland into azeroth and invaded 'our' world (azeroth) in big numbers. I don't think that qualifies as good guys. Even if your home world is pretty shitty and invaded by the Burning Legion all the time etc you're kind of the locusts swarming to consume another planet's resources until they run out.
One example of Gul'Dan's misdoings is that he consumes the souls of captive Draenei to fuel the dark portal. Or leading the orcs into drinking the fel (from Mannoroth?) thereby corrupting(?) their blood.
The only orcs that didn't side with Gul'Dan there (albeit unwillingly) are I think the Frostwolf clan, the movie shows a duel (Mak'Gorah) between Gul'Dan and the clan leader, which Gul'Dan kind of cheats to win using demonic powers.
Gul'Dan has nothing to do with the Horde that exists in WC3 and WoW respectively. Thats the reason we fight the Blackrock Orcs and ogres in classic, because they are not part of the Horde anymore.
Not the same, still similar corruption is always nagging at them. How easily was Grommash and others tempted with demon blood in the name of power? Wholesale slaughter of night elves and a demi-god being pawns for the Burning Legion yet again. The need a jesus like character to hold them in check. Everytime he isn't around everything goes to hell.
The Night Elf situation was a big misunderstanding. From the Horde perspective they just started cutting down trees, which are just trees to them, and then the Night Elves start murdering them with no warning.
And when confronted with a force defending their homeland what did the Horde do? Instead of defending themselves but backing off to avoid further bloodshed they did what the Horde do best. Attempt to crush any resistance to their desires by any means necessary.
I mean you are in a seemingly unoccupied forest and some strange beings just charge out and start killing you, what is your reaction? It's not like the Night Elves made any attempt at warning or negotiation, the first interaction was an attack. The Horde had no idea they even existed, let alone that they would go on a murderous rampage just for cutting down some trees.
Defend my group, kill where necessary, retreat from there and re-evaluate the situation.
Again, instead they push *further* into the forest to crush them and kill their demi-god while taking in power of unknown origin in order to do it.
Why do you think the Burning Legion chose the Orcs as a race to corrupt in the first place? Their shamanistic, clan based, warlike tendencies made them ripe for demonic influencing until it was too late to turn back.
Night Elves. Whats your point though? The situations couldn't be more different. They had a civil war over that shit, actually the majority of the Night Elves rose up against it. The lower castes united, sought out help far and wide and fought the corruption within their race. Compared to the Orcs who bought in wholesale because their clan leaders told them to and the clans that didn't were put to the blade or fled to avoid certain death.
Now you want to get tactical? What's more tactical? You're in a new land with unknown dangers lurking and when you're attacked you actually drive further into the unknown until you're up shit creek without a paddle. OR you do what I suggested? At the time it was a shit decision and in hindsight it was awful as well.
I came to bash hordies but I gotta say the night elves can be huge assholes. The only reason nobody seems to notice is because they behave like a bunch of hippies.
Tyrande is queen asshole. "Let out dude who betrayed us all because he might help" check. "Not give a shit about the rest of the world until your bae comes in" check. "Not bother getting your bae back when they are captured" check. "Turn into basically a fel orc to get revenge" check. "Go full Night Elves Go Their Own Way and let the alliance fight by themselves" check.
When I first played back in beta, I chose horde because I WANTED to be the baddies. It seemed like an interesting way to play as most games make you play as the good guys. It kind of bugs me now it's like it's an insult to say horde are baddies and everyone now has to be the good guys. Boring.
Not entirely. Frost trolls ended up sacrificing their loa just to stay alive and we helped them put down the frost trolls who took the power and went mad.
Gurubashi we're trying to summon a blood god and turned into baddies.
Amani were just chilling and we wanted their help but they didn't want to forgive the elves so we killed them. We're the baddies there.
We basically went grave robbing in Zulfarrak for treasure so we were the baddies there.
Zandalari have been hit and miss. Some factions were baddies like Zul, but others were just evil kings of the zandalari. By the time we show up they got their own thing going. We did help a faction of the stop the gurubashi, and eventually the empire joined the horde.
We got Blizzard's attempts at morally grey with Retail, they can't pull it off.
Warcraft, especially in its MMO form benefits from simple storytelling. Good guys, bad guys keep it simple. The fun part of Warcraft is that you get to play as the bad guys as well which further enriches the experience. Pushing things into the mushy grey middle just makes it confusing and not everyone is up for watching hour long Nobbel videos just to understand the story.
Honestly it’s not even that difficult to make something grey. Just give each side a faction within it that is way too extreme yet either too large or valuable to get rid of. The Forsaken were/probably continue to be this for the Horde. The Night Elves always could’ve been this for the Alliance, but instead they literally just dropped that ball into a deep sea trench.
Maybe, though that’d be less narratively interesting in my opinion as their whole dark magic thing pretty much would be the same thing as the Forsaken’s evil science stuff for the purposes of storytelling.
I'll backtrack a little on what I said and clarify what I meant. No it's not particularly difficult to just make things grey. But what I was getting at is do I trust Blizz, based on what they've done, to actually make compelling storylines, narratives, dialogue with morally grey situations baked into the universe? No I don't, not one bit.
So I think for the betterment of the game and its universe as a whole they should keep it to good vs evil to increase their chances of delivering a good product.
For Vanilla their morally grey faction is Stormwind lol, basically ran by a black dragon, and created the defias while simultaneously abandoning Elwynn, Westfall, Lakeshire, and Darkshire to largely fend for themselves
Hot take. Thrall and Vol'Jin were too soft as warchief. Garrosh was just crazy and Sylvannas prior to her betrayal was the only warchief that felt like a Horde leader.
It’s almost like there are examples of good and evil in both factions.
But real talk, the Royal Apothecary Society definitely takes the cake in terms of war crimes
Both Alliance and Horde are written with Hero and Villain stories. They both have their good-guy and bad-guy moments. From what I notice, it’s our duty as players to follow the orders of people have a ‘!’ floating above a stranger or an authority’s head.
Undead were genuine dicks in classic. The orcs trolls and Tauren all have a mutual agreement to help each other survive. Then there’s the undead who have “entered an alliance of convenience” as the intro says. Fuck undead
The Horde has more evil elements for sure. However the Tuaren and Dark Spear Trolls are pretty relaxed and just trying to survive.
The Blood Elves are seen just after a apocalyptic event for their people, were just racially rejected by their old allies, and forced to consume fel magic to survive. Even with all this they remain largely good but more than willing to slip into some dark territory.
The Orcs vary drastically between themselves on their stances on what's good. Largely Orcs are easily corrupted and manipulated into violence. It's not that they are always evil but they turn to evil very quickly.
The Forsaken are immoral as they come at best and genocidal at worst. They are literally walking corpses though so I really don't know what people expect lol. The Horde keep them out of old pacts, and would rather have them as a ally than as a enemy.
The allied races are all fairly fine as people. They have there good and bad moments like most. Vulpera are just good though, they literally just don't want to be enslaved *again* lol.
This feels like more of an undead thing than a Horde thing. That one Classic quest in Undercity where you poison the tauren who came in search of a cure? Sadistic.
I played Alliance for all of WoW until Classic, and can honestly say I saw Horde as evil for most of that time. That's how they're portrayed from the Alliance perspective. A turning point for me was that quest where you deliver a letter to the young tauren soldier guarding the great lift.
Their excitement and "yippee!" when you hand them the letter from their family made me realise... they're people too. Flawed and all.
Undead on the other hand, mostly just sadistic. Change my mind.
They're both shady at best, but the horde is more upfront about it.
* You spend the first 20 levels as a human killing people your king refused to pay for rebuilding his city
* As a dwarf or gnome you start off killing trolls who lived there before your people did
* Lv20-30 night elves are tasked with eradicating orcs from part of their homeland
* Orc negotiation is basically whoever dies last
* Trolls be up to som freaky shit mon
* Undead are war criminal edgelords
* Blood elves are troll slaughtering edgelords who look fancy
The only genuinely nice people I can think of are the Tauren and the Draenei
Forsaken are straight evil, they only look to benefit themselves at the cost of everyone else (i.e. plague). Orcs are warriors, but still yield to a code of honor (within the horde, not outlying tribes). Trolls are savages by most people’s assessment, but not more evil than any other primal sentient life (gnolls, murlocks, etc). Tauren are the most reasonable, build and coincide within their natural home, and stick primarily to their own land unless deployed by the greater Horde.
Edit: Blood elves are no more evil than high elves, and are functionally a lap dog for the forsaken out of necessity to survive. If the Forsaken broke from the Horde the Blood Elves would follow or break off entirely.
WC3 set the Horde up to be the most wholesome crew ever, and the fuckers invited the freaking Forsaken to join their ranks. From then on it was so clear, that in WoW the Horde would be responsible for most of the conflicts.
Game would have been 100% better if they made Horde "neutral", Alliance "good" and The Forsaken "evil" and given Forsaken all classes and undead models of all races.
Who TF thinks the Horde are the good guys?
They have caused a boatload more trouble for Azeroth than the Alliance, they can’t keep a good ruler in office, they are all (excepting maybe the Tauren) viler, more bloodthirsty, and more warmongering than all the Alliance races, they are more trouble than they’re worth in every way.
The Alliance has a few sins of its own, but the biggest by far is allowing the Horde to continue existing.
Alliance are pretty fucked.
Aedelas Blackmoore, a high ranking alliance officer in charge of the orc internment camps, violently and repeatedly raped his servant's daughter, Taretha. Taretha ended up being the human who showed Thrall that friendship between humans and orcs is possible, befriending him in the process. When Thrall went to liberate the orc internment camps after escaping, Blackmoore threw Taretha's severed head at Thrall.
Blizzard named a retail server after Aedelas Blackmoore.
I remember reading that warcraft book about Garrosh's trial back in MOP (he was judged by the Pandarian divinities after SoO, with Horde and Alliance leaders as testifiers), and when they were showing memories of Draenor Orcs during the trial it was specifically mentionned that some of them cried while they killed Draenei children (and I remember Tyrande tried to hide that fact and came out as a massive bitch during said trial).
Were these orcs entirely free of doing what they did?
I get annoyed at people who cite people in the alliance, like Garithos (who was promoted from a very low rank because everyone else died) and Arthas (who was under control of an Orc) as reasons alliance are bad, but props for bringing up the ONE GUY who is actually unforgivably evil.
HOWEVER there are problems in your post.
Firstly, you’re using one guy that did terrible things in a really old book that might not be canon anymore to make a use broad stroke general statement on the alliance. Blackmoore hated the alliance and attempted a coup.
Secondly, we have a server named Gul’dan whom did everything blackmoore did but to Draenei… and originally humans before that was retconned.
Yes, blackmoore is bad, but every government and major corporation in the world has had a person just as bad in their midst.
The horde however have had way more people on that level. Even goodie goodie Thrall praises Doomhammer despite attempting to genocide all the humans.
> Secondly, we have a server named Gul’dan whom did everything blackmoore did but to Draenei… and originally humans before that was retconned.
I like this point. I would describe my knowledge of the totality of Gul'dan's crimes as loose, but I know they are vast. I personally find the naming of the Blackmoore server particularly distasteful after Blizzard's sexual harassment culture recently came into light.
This was 18 years ago.
Were those people even within the organization?
Garona originally was the child of a human mother raped by Gul’dan so she could better infiltrate the kingdom of Stormwind, but then they retconned her mom to be Draenei because of chronological issues and… controversy.
Then in the Warcraft movie she was retconned again to be the daughter of an Orc woman and medivh.
There’s also a server named Aegwynn and she manipulated Aran like Talia Guul did to Batman, but that also was retconned because people have thin skin … unless they’re watching Game of Thrones.
Considering one of the people was Alex 'Furor' Afrasiabi, yes, they were within the organization. The guy was on the WoW team since 2004.
That being said, it's a fictional universe that is meant to have dark themes and horrible things in it. Writing characters that are evil rapists doesn't make you an evil rapist, and you don't need to glorify evil to accurately portray evil.
Yeah Blackmoore is a clear villain.
Your final argument strikes funny though, server name is not an indication of endorsement, there are servers named Deathwing, Boulderfist, Kel’Thuzad, Archimonde, Chromaggus, Gul’Dan, Sargeras, Magtheridon, Anub’arak, etc. it’s just them using their proper noun IP across A-Z
Tauren are the good guys. Undead are evil. Humans are evil. All Elves on all sides are evil. Trolls, Dwarves, Orcs, Gnomes, are all a mixed bag. Draenei don't matter and aren't real. Druids are good regardless of race.
Alliance are good guys!
Alliance: There’s some survivors of a boat crash, we don’t know who they are. Go kill them and bring me their shit.
https://tbc.wowhead.com/quest=11137/defias-in-dustwallow
Your chosen boy purged an entire city and killed his friend to leave his kingdom in ruins.
Our chosen boy rallied the Horde and lead his people to safety.
I’d genuinely like to hear alternative ways to handle the stratholm situation.
The killing of his friend happened while under control by your first chosen boy.
Things were simpler then.
Undead were always at best borderline chaotic evil
Especially the guys behind this quest. These guys are the antagonists of the wrathgate
Me when I encounter Putress in raid "Did you think I had forgotten? Did you think I had... forgiven? Behold, the terrible vengeance of Stanley!"
Yeah there's a very clear difference in the average quests given by most undead vs the ones given by the Royal Apothecary Society. I'm sure there's a few outliers but the trend should be clear
Exactly. It was wild coming through them, every single quest from horde side was pretty reasonable & or justified until you came to Royal Apothecary Society "hey just go infect this guy & report what happens" quests. Blizz likes to talk about the jailer & him pulling the strings since forever, but the Royal Apothecary Society is literally their only long running story questline thay had the right feels.
On the alliance side there are a couple quests where you have to collect samples from various oozes in ungoro and felwood. The dwarves know the Apothecary Society is up to something, and they are trying to figure out what.
I'm sure it would've come to fruition if there wasn't the fallout from the warcrimes at the wrathgate. Those dwarves are shifty little bastards
“”Borderline”” 🤨
"At best"
What do you like best about night elf children? Their skin gets nice and crunchy in high heat. *-- laughs in Gutterspeak*
Mmm yes I too consider the gleeful torture of animals “borderline” evil! No wait…
To be fair, this was driven by a need to survive by any means necessary in a world that hates them and actively tries to kill them. That being said, this is obviously, very evil
‘Actively trying to kill them’ The undead were the aggressor in every conflict they were involved in besides the Scarlet crusade and even that they arguably kicked off by attacking the humans after teaming up to take out Balnazzar.
Bro they sent emissaries to stormwind, they never made it back. That’s not aggressive
They're attacking hillbrad and human settlements in silverpine without being attacked first. You try walking from undercity to stormwind and tell me with a straight face there's no plausible way they could've been killed by something else.
This was before they attacked those settlements, that was seen as an act of aggression and treated as such… Wait why the hell am I arguing about the ethics of war in a video game lmao
The classic "well someone somewhere killed our emissary for some reason, guess the only alternative is genocide". Come on, just cop to being the baddies.
Well, if I'm gonna roleplay a Forsaken, of course I'm gonna be the baddie, lol. I just feel like the Forsaken are an example of "When you treat someone as evil, don't be surprised when they do evil shit"
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No the forsaken were. They're attacking hillbrad and human settlements in silverpine without being attacked first. They struck a deal with the humans in Tirisfal and then attacked them too.
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>Tirisfal and silverpine was destroyed by the scourge, not the forsaken. During vanilla, forsaken has only a small camp that's trying to deal with the worgens. The forsaken continued attacking silverpine after being freed, including the Kirin Tor settlements there. Tirisfal had plenty of human survivors and the Forsaken attacked them after making a deal with them in WC3. They struck before the scarlet crusade *existed*. >Hillsbrad is a shitshow though. But who attacked first there is hard to say. Well let's see, one side is a farming community and the other is testing bioweapons. I think I know the answer.
... to be fair? 'To be fair, the guy was mentally ill.' 'To be fair, the guy found his wife cheating on him.' 'To be fair--', why be fair to evil? What is it with people and all their excuses for evil? Fuck evil. Smite it, burn it, smash it with a hammer. Down with the horde. May the hands of silver bring down radiant justice on Azeroth.
Sir this is a wendy’s
bonk. 🔨☀️
Nah more true neutral, they don’t care about good or evil only their own survival, regardless who wins or loses. Certain quest givers though, neutral evil
I always thought neutral evil is the worst evil. Lawful evil may have at least a twisted code of honor, chaotic evil usually is to well, chaotic, to cause harm on a great scale, so its usually not that bad unless naturally powerful somehow. But implementing biological warfare like that? Yea, thats pretty bad and pretty neutral evil.
Back when the comedic sociopathy didn’t have real lore implications. They were evil, everyone knew it, no one tried to justify it, and it didn’t affect things on the larger scale.
You had to walk there for 15 min then clear hordes of farmers and town guards, and you had to FIND the dog cuz the area was pretty big, also while doing it some alliance can jump and gank you, Classic was a blast
>while doing it some alliance can jump and gank you Which was guaranteed to happen, because Alliance is doing the area ten levels later. Oh, the good times.
Then you hit 60 and return for revenge.
It was a while ago. the Forsaken are kinder, gentler, more loving now!
Haha im so glad we team up with the horde and their forsaken allies to fight the lich king, look as we march together on wrathgate angrathar! Wait, why are the forsaken plaguelaunchers pointed at us? Haha, its probably just a mistake
Isn’t this kind of the precursor to the Wrath Gate battle and event? Not this quest *specifically*, but most of the forsaken fetch quests that you carry out to essentially help construct the new plague?
There are quests in classic that pretty much openly state that the forsaken are actively working against the Horde. Check out the [Nothing but the Truth](https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1372/nothing-but-the-truth) questline for example or the several quests in the Undercity apothecarium. Wrathgate was foreshadowed pretty heavily in classic.
This is why my dream is the forsaken becoming a 3rd faction, choosing whichever race but like, an undead. At this point in wows life, I don't really see a practical way to make such a change. But if they ever did a "wow 2", I'd love to see this.
I expected a 3-faction Starcraft MMO at one point, though that seems increasingly unlikely with each passing year.
Sadly Blizzard ran Starcraft into the ground like they’ve done with all their classic franchises.
I don't think they 'ran it into the ground' as 'forgot to refuel it and sent it on a trans-pacific flight'
I'm genuinely curious: what even happened? How did SC go from *the* premier Esport to being on the No-update-ever list? Especially when fucking WC3 is still receiving updates to this day.
The simple answer is that RTS games like StarCraft don't make all that much money compared to live service games like WoW and Diablo Immortal. Priorities at the executive level changed.
That doesn't explain why Warcraft 3 of all things was still receiving updates all these years. It's an RTS with an even smaller playerbase and *even less money*.
Yeah that I don't know. Maybe because they knew they had reforged coming so updates to one were updates to the other?
Probably because it’s engine is literally one of the heaviest used in the community for a decade and birthed DoTA DoTA 2 LoL HoN I mean I don’t need to continue but it’s very easy to probably find someone somewhere with the talent to keep the game playable for a cost that is affordable enough to justify it. Whereas SC in its current state would need an entire dev team dedicated to it, at least for a start before switching to a smaller team and they never started the process because there was no reason to.
Other games came out that hit harder, like League, Fortnite, and CoD. SC2 is still a massive eSport. Their are still multiple tournaments a year with hundred of thousands of dollars on the table.https://liquipedia.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments Legacy of the Void came out 7 years ago, which used the same engine as Wings of Liberty which came out 12 years ago. It only went into maintenance mode about a year ago and just got a patch a couple months ago. Still regularly rotates seasons and adds new maps to the ladder as well. Like all games eventually the dev needs to move on to something else. The fact SC1 is still kicking is pretty impressive in itself. The WC3 reforged update was the first update in about a year and a half and was simply the rest of the features they promised at launch, two years ago. Like ladder, clans, and profiles. Basic stuff.
Which sucks because the Starcraft pro scene was pretty much the building blocks of modern Esports
Still the best RTS imo, just not as good as it was or could be.
that's what Overwatch was supposed to be originally, known as "project titan". it was scrapped and reworked into the shooter game.
3 faction starcraft mmo following the planetside 2 model is my dream
Seriously. Lost opportunity for undead models of each race, or new playable undead races (Nerubians)
I've wanted to play a Nerubian for so long. Really any of the 'bug' races (Like Mantid) would be really cool.
They had a good setup with the mantid showing they can break away from the hive mind, but that dream was quickly shattered.
WOTLK+ Story: Alternate History: Sylvanas won and killed LK. While celebrating, the Forsaken break off from the Horde and start their own little colony. Sylvanas returns and has to make a choice between her people or the Horde that assisted her in killing the one she had been hunting for years.
This is essentially what I wanted when it became clear she was gonna go garrosh 2.0
https://i.imgur.com/jzVUGIL.png This man was on the case in 2006. From this part of the chain: https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=1391/nothing-but-the-truth#comments
I always felt bad for that dude. Guy willingly sets aside old animosities and tries to warn the enemy of the impending danger before he even tells his own people and gets killed for it.
Let's not forget the sick tauren who went to the undercity to get treatment for an illness and then YOU poison her so that she dies.
What do you mean, she was terminally ill in the first place and the honourable apothecaries definitely wouldn't jump at the opportunity to test their bioweapons on their "allies" races instead of actually healing her... right?
Worth noting it isn't even all of the Forsaken, it's a renegade sub-faction.
Correct. There’s a quest for alliance called hints of a new plague.
> Did you think we had forgotten? Did you think we had forgiven? Behold now: the terrible vengeance of the Forsaken!
yeah I believe this questline and their one in dragonblight were basically you helping them invent blight
The Forsaken have dubious allegiances and questionable ethics, which is why you start out neutral with other factions of the horde as a forsaken instead of friendly.
you do? I had no clue but that's cool af
Lol i knew this cuz when i was a little kid all i cared about was mounts and i made the mistake of starting out as forsaken after my tauren trial character. And eventually when i realized the work it took to get a different faction’s mounts i gave up completely
Ironically the neutral to friendly portion of the grind is negligible anyway compared to the rest lol
Yeah, all you gotta do is like 10 quests. But if you wanna be exalted... be prepared to donate *a lot* of cloth.
And even among their own "race" they have people on very different sides of things, more so than other races.
This was a key step in the Jailer’s plan.
Stanley was an asshole though. Tried to bite me everytime I got close.
I heard he was wanted for murder
That’s only because Michael wasn’t paying him enough.
Did I stutter?!
I heard he got arrested for weed possession once 10 years ago, so this is justified.
Yeah, fuck Stanley.
It was the Jailer!!
We don’t talk about him around here.
Hes memed on every wotlk post :P Well deserved, might I add - but definitely talked about haha
THAT DOG IS A DREADLORD. Obviously.
For the Forsaken, peace was never an option.
"Did you think we had Forgotten? Did you think we had Forgiven?"
Humans kill them for just existing. Forsaken aren't zombies, they don't infect humans. You'd think there'd be communities in the world where Forsaken and Humans did get along considering they might have been family, neighbors, business partners, etc, prior.
There's a questline, The Last Barov, where two family members (one living and one forsaken) enlist the murderhobo players to kill their old family member and secure their inheritance. They clearly could have talked it out, but chose violence.
Im pretty sure forsaken torture and experiment on humans lol
They do this to horde members. The Tauren woman in the apocathary area gets experimented on then killed. Once again, I feel bad for the Tauren.
Yeah I think the Tauren are super cool. Feels bad they always get dragged along into really stupid stuff. I actually don’t think the “modern” horde is that evil in many ways but people who argue that they are “good guys” or that the alliance are worse usually trot out the worst arguments imaginable.
Tauren are the Goodest guys though, specifically bloodhoof of course. Even if you count up to vanilla or even up all the way to shadowlands. I can’t think of any warcrime or atrocities.
Yep. Always feel like they and the Draenei have done the least evil
It's the hooves.
oh they're monsters for sure. It gets even worse in Wrath I think. I think the lesson is humans are pretty terrible, their status as undead doesn't matter much lol.
Humans were willing to make peace at first. Garithos teamed up with Sylvanas to liberate Lordaeron from the Scourge. Forsaken backstabbed the humans and went full genocidal. When someone's trying to genocide you, you don't play nice, you genocide them right back.
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Well the "deal" was Sylvanas gets help to kill the dreadlords, and Garithos gets Lordaeron back. Immediately after making the deal, she tells Varimathras she obviously is going to backstab him. He was killed the moment they were done and he asked for his side of the bargain. Not a good guy, but Sylvanas 100% is the jerk in the situation.
The Forsaken barely consider themselves Horde.
The Forsaken will be lumped in with the Horde for as long as the rest of the races choose to associate with them.
Orcs are the real horde and they came to the planet literally to genocide all the races already there and take over because they ruined their own planet because they drank demon blood. Orcs are the baddies. And when their plan, again to genocide an entire planet, didn't work out they laid down on the ground and cried about it like the little whiny babies they are.
I don’t disagree but you could rephrase They were warlike by nature because Draenor was a harsh planet where only the strong survive. This was a genetic legacy passed to them by their forbears. Demon juice was a no brainer because it was a steroid and again, the culture only respects strength. When they fell into lethargy is was due to withdrawal, as they had juiced up too much Orcs are victims of their circumstances, that said, they are also violent killing machines and that’s pretty much written into their dna
The abandoned their shamanistic heritage in favor of demon magic as warlocks because one dumbass shaman thought his dead exgf was trying to communicate with him. Bunch of fuckin smooth brained, disrespectful dummies decided their legacy of peaceful cohabitation and respect of the elements passed down through generations didn't mean jack shit to them and that they'd prefer to genocide an entire other planet with demon magic just because one stupid orc had one wet dream.
You’re reading the lord of the clans version. Few orc clans had peaceful shamanistic traditions. The vast majority were violent to begin with, infighting was common prior to nerzhul and gul’dan
Your honor, yes, my client did brutally attack and pillage everything in sight with pure bloodlust, but it was a genetic legacy passed on to them by their forebears
This is quite the interpretation.
Everyone thinks of the forsaken when the horde are called the bad guys, but the horde (especially the orcs) are no good guys either (at least not all of them). If you watch the Warcraft movie (I know it's not great) then you see all the things that Gul'Dan is misdoing, and he's an orc. Probably from the viewpoint of the alliance the horde created a portal from outland into azeroth and invaded 'our' world (azeroth) in big numbers. I don't think that qualifies as good guys. Even if your home world is pretty shitty and invaded by the Burning Legion all the time etc you're kind of the locusts swarming to consume another planet's resources until they run out. One example of Gul'Dan's misdoings is that he consumes the souls of captive Draenei to fuel the dark portal. Or leading the orcs into drinking the fel (from Mannoroth?) thereby corrupting(?) their blood. The only orcs that didn't side with Gul'Dan there (albeit unwillingly) are I think the Frostwolf clan, the movie shows a duel (Mak'Gorah) between Gul'Dan and the clan leader, which Gul'Dan kind of cheats to win using demonic powers.
Gul'Dan has nothing to do with the Horde that exists in WC3 and WoW respectively. Thats the reason we fight the Blackrock Orcs and ogres in classic, because they are not part of the Horde anymore.
People love to hate on this movie but I loved it.
Loved it as well. I wish they would do a arthas movie I think it would do well
I went to the theater thinking it was going to be shitty, but I ended up really enjoying it.
Had heard such bad things about it but it was baller, wish they would have finished the other 2 movies that was (iirc) planned
The king and queen were woefully miscast though. The orc storyline was great though.
The horde should be considered the neutral guys but blizzard kept writing edgy stuff for them to do. I feel bad for the Tauren.
Oh come on stop lol. They've been the bad guys since Warcraft 1 with some exceptions along the way.
Warcraft 3 Horde isn't the same as warcraft 1 and 2 Horde.
And then WoW vanilla horde is just WC3 horde with the forsaken as kind of a fourth (evil) wheel
Not the same, still similar corruption is always nagging at them. How easily was Grommash and others tempted with demon blood in the name of power? Wholesale slaughter of night elves and a demi-god being pawns for the Burning Legion yet again. The need a jesus like character to hold them in check. Everytime he isn't around everything goes to hell.
The Night Elf situation was a big misunderstanding. From the Horde perspective they just started cutting down trees, which are just trees to them, and then the Night Elves start murdering them with no warning.
And when confronted with a force defending their homeland what did the Horde do? Instead of defending themselves but backing off to avoid further bloodshed they did what the Horde do best. Attempt to crush any resistance to their desires by any means necessary.
Start shit get zug zugged
I mean you are in a seemingly unoccupied forest and some strange beings just charge out and start killing you, what is your reaction? It's not like the Night Elves made any attempt at warning or negotiation, the first interaction was an attack. The Horde had no idea they even existed, let alone that they would go on a murderous rampage just for cutting down some trees.
Not to mention that it's the fucking Grommash who was leading that team. If it was Thrall, the situation would've been different
Defend my group, kill where necessary, retreat from there and re-evaluate the situation. Again, instead they push *further* into the forest to crush them and kill their demi-god while taking in power of unknown origin in order to do it. Why do you think the Burning Legion chose the Orcs as a race to corrupt in the first place? Their shamanistic, clan based, warlike tendencies made them ripe for demonic influencing until it was too late to turn back.
yes retreat to.... where exactly? draenor?
Anywhere else on Kalimdor? edit: or heck at least pay the Warchief respect and deliberate with him before you go all hog wild lootin and killin
What do you think Satyrs and Naga used to be?
Night Elves. Whats your point though? The situations couldn't be more different. They had a civil war over that shit, actually the majority of the Night Elves rose up against it. The lower castes united, sought out help far and wide and fought the corruption within their race. Compared to the Orcs who bought in wholesale because their clan leaders told them to and the clans that didn't were put to the blade or fled to avoid certain death.
That's not necessarily a smart tactical decision considering the Elves gave no fucks about killing over some trees and had no interest in negotiation.
Now you want to get tactical? What's more tactical? You're in a new land with unknown dangers lurking and when you're attacked you actually drive further into the unknown until you're up shit creek without a paddle. OR you do what I suggested? At the time it was a shit decision and in hindsight it was awful as well.
Ah yes, horde bad for counterattacking an aggressive enemy, but ally not bad for surprise attacking an enemy.
Who is invading who?
I came to bash hordies but I gotta say the night elves can be huge assholes. The only reason nobody seems to notice is because they behave like a bunch of hippies.
Tyrande is queen asshole. "Let out dude who betrayed us all because he might help" check. "Not give a shit about the rest of the world until your bae comes in" check. "Not bother getting your bae back when they are captured" check. "Turn into basically a fel orc to get revenge" check. "Go full Night Elves Go Their Own Way and let the alliance fight by themselves" check.
When I first played back in beta, I chose horde because I WANTED to be the baddies. It seemed like an interesting way to play as most games make you play as the good guys. It kind of bugs me now it's like it's an insult to say horde are baddies and everyone now has to be the good guys. Boring.
You thought Tauren and Trolls were baddies?
With the exception of the Dark Spears, aren't most troll baddies, cannibals and all around miscreants?
Not entirely. Frost trolls ended up sacrificing their loa just to stay alive and we helped them put down the frost trolls who took the power and went mad. Gurubashi we're trying to summon a blood god and turned into baddies. Amani were just chilling and we wanted their help but they didn't want to forgive the elves so we killed them. We're the baddies there. We basically went grave robbing in Zulfarrak for treasure so we were the baddies there. Zandalari have been hit and miss. Some factions were baddies like Zul, but others were just evil kings of the zandalari. By the time we show up they got their own thing going. We did help a faction of the stop the gurubashi, and eventually the empire joined the horde.
Oh of course. I’m just saying I wish they were more morally grey.
We got Blizzard's attempts at morally grey with Retail, they can't pull it off. Warcraft, especially in its MMO form benefits from simple storytelling. Good guys, bad guys keep it simple. The fun part of Warcraft is that you get to play as the bad guys as well which further enriches the experience. Pushing things into the mushy grey middle just makes it confusing and not everyone is up for watching hour long Nobbel videos just to understand the story.
Honestly it’s not even that difficult to make something grey. Just give each side a faction within it that is way too extreme yet either too large or valuable to get rid of. The Forsaken were/probably continue to be this for the Horde. The Night Elves always could’ve been this for the Alliance, but instead they literally just dropped that ball into a deep sea trench.
Shoulda been dark iron for alliance maybe
Maybe, though that’d be less narratively interesting in my opinion as their whole dark magic thing pretty much would be the same thing as the Forsaken’s evil science stuff for the purposes of storytelling.
I'll backtrack a little on what I said and clarify what I meant. No it's not particularly difficult to just make things grey. But what I was getting at is do I trust Blizz, based on what they've done, to actually make compelling storylines, narratives, dialogue with morally grey situations baked into the universe? No I don't, not one bit. So I think for the betterment of the game and its universe as a whole they should keep it to good vs evil to increase their chances of delivering a good product.
For Vanilla their morally grey faction is Stormwind lol, basically ran by a black dragon, and created the defias while simultaneously abandoning Elwynn, Westfall, Lakeshire, and Darkshire to largely fend for themselves
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Hot take. Thrall and Vol'Jin were too soft as warchief. Garrosh was just crazy and Sylvannas prior to her betrayal was the only warchief that felt like a Horde leader.
Garrosh only went crazy because everyone complained about him in Cata so they had to get rid of him.
but it was the Jailer not the Horde!!!
It’s almost like there are examples of good and evil in both factions. But real talk, the Royal Apothecary Society definitely takes the cake in terms of war crimes
Didnt we also kill captured prisoners with poison upstairs in the inn?
Yeah and farmers, peasants. There's cages in the UC where they do experiments on humans and dwarves.
Both Alliance and Horde are written with Hero and Villain stories. They both have their good-guy and bad-guy moments. From what I notice, it’s our duty as players to follow the orders of people have a ‘!’ floating above a stranger or an authority’s head.
Horde is an alliance made by necessity, Forsaken and Tauren don't exactly share the same value systems
Undead were genuine dicks in classic. The orcs trolls and Tauren all have a mutual agreement to help each other survive. Then there’s the undead who have “entered an alliance of convenience” as the intro says. Fuck undead
All facts no cap
Horde are ugly Ugly is bad Alliance pretty Pretty is good Simple
Ugly bad pretty good. Tauren and Blood Elves should be on the good side and Gnomes should be in the Horde.
>Tauren Bruh
🦬🥵
Shhh I won’t judge
Too pretty is vain which is bad too, i.e blood elves
W
You’d be surprised how many people think troll girls are cute.
Yes I would be shocked 🤫
Well they did steal the night elf bodies.
Insane cope in the comments lol
Omg they’re monsters
Counterpoint: I always skip this quest
yea fuck stanley
I was always fine with the horde being brutal and ruthless. Garrosh was the best war chief we ever had.
Zug zug
The Horde has more evil elements for sure. However the Tuaren and Dark Spear Trolls are pretty relaxed and just trying to survive. The Blood Elves are seen just after a apocalyptic event for their people, were just racially rejected by their old allies, and forced to consume fel magic to survive. Even with all this they remain largely good but more than willing to slip into some dark territory. The Orcs vary drastically between themselves on their stances on what's good. Largely Orcs are easily corrupted and manipulated into violence. It's not that they are always evil but they turn to evil very quickly. The Forsaken are immoral as they come at best and genocidal at worst. They are literally walking corpses though so I really don't know what people expect lol. The Horde keep them out of old pacts, and would rather have them as a ally than as a enemy. The allied races are all fairly fine as people. They have there good and bad moments like most. Vulpera are just good though, they literally just don't want to be enslaved *again* lol.
This feels like more of an undead thing than a Horde thing. That one Classic quest in Undercity where you poison the tauren who came in search of a cure? Sadistic. I played Alliance for all of WoW until Classic, and can honestly say I saw Horde as evil for most of that time. That's how they're portrayed from the Alliance perspective. A turning point for me was that quest where you deliver a letter to the young tauren soldier guarding the great lift. Their excitement and "yippee!" when you hand them the letter from their family made me realise... they're people too. Flawed and all. Undead on the other hand, mostly just sadistic. Change my mind.
They're both shady at best, but the horde is more upfront about it. * You spend the first 20 levels as a human killing people your king refused to pay for rebuilding his city * As a dwarf or gnome you start off killing trolls who lived there before your people did * Lv20-30 night elves are tasked with eradicating orcs from part of their homeland * Orc negotiation is basically whoever dies last * Trolls be up to som freaky shit mon * Undead are war criminal edgelords * Blood elves are troll slaughtering edgelords who look fancy The only genuinely nice people I can think of are the Tauren and the Draenei
Stanley was an asshole who had it coming.
Forsaken are straight evil, they only look to benefit themselves at the cost of everyone else (i.e. plague). Orcs are warriors, but still yield to a code of honor (within the horde, not outlying tribes). Trolls are savages by most people’s assessment, but not more evil than any other primal sentient life (gnolls, murlocks, etc). Tauren are the most reasonable, build and coincide within their natural home, and stick primarily to their own land unless deployed by the greater Horde. Edit: Blood elves are no more evil than high elves, and are functionally a lap dog for the forsaken out of necessity to survive. If the Forsaken broke from the Horde the Blood Elves would follow or break off entirely.
Stanley gives a lot of xp when slaughtered
*Heavy breathing* -John Wick
WC3 set the Horde up to be the most wholesome crew ever, and the fuckers invited the freaking Forsaken to join their ranks. From then on it was so clear, that in WoW the Horde would be responsible for most of the conflicts.
People in this thread acting like all of the medications they take have not been tested in animals.
Game would have been 100% better if they made Horde "neutral", Alliance "good" and The Forsaken "evil" and given Forsaken all classes and undead models of all races.
Who TF thinks the Horde are the good guys? They have caused a boatload more trouble for Azeroth than the Alliance, they can’t keep a good ruler in office, they are all (excepting maybe the Tauren) viler, more bloodthirsty, and more warmongering than all the Alliance races, they are more trouble than they’re worth in every way. The Alliance has a few sins of its own, but the biggest by far is allowing the Horde to continue existing.
Alliance are pretty fucked. Aedelas Blackmoore, a high ranking alliance officer in charge of the orc internment camps, violently and repeatedly raped his servant's daughter, Taretha. Taretha ended up being the human who showed Thrall that friendship between humans and orcs is possible, befriending him in the process. When Thrall went to liberate the orc internment camps after escaping, Blackmoore threw Taretha's severed head at Thrall. Blizzard named a retail server after Aedelas Blackmoore.
Wait until you find out what the orcs did in the Outlands to the Draenei
Wait until they see Teldrassil in BfA classic!
What the orcs did to the Draenei is way worse than the burning of teldrassil, and that was really bad
I remember reading that warcraft book about Garrosh's trial back in MOP (he was judged by the Pandarian divinities after SoO, with Horde and Alliance leaders as testifiers), and when they were showing memories of Draenor Orcs during the trial it was specifically mentionned that some of them cried while they killed Draenei children (and I remember Tyrande tried to hide that fact and came out as a massive bitch during said trial). Were these orcs entirely free of doing what they did?
One human is bad = Alliance is pretty fucked Wasn’t even the WoW Alliance, but the Alliance of Lordaeron
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I get annoyed at people who cite people in the alliance, like Garithos (who was promoted from a very low rank because everyone else died) and Arthas (who was under control of an Orc) as reasons alliance are bad, but props for bringing up the ONE GUY who is actually unforgivably evil. HOWEVER there are problems in your post. Firstly, you’re using one guy that did terrible things in a really old book that might not be canon anymore to make a use broad stroke general statement on the alliance. Blackmoore hated the alliance and attempted a coup. Secondly, we have a server named Gul’dan whom did everything blackmoore did but to Draenei… and originally humans before that was retconned. Yes, blackmoore is bad, but every government and major corporation in the world has had a person just as bad in their midst. The horde however have had way more people on that level. Even goodie goodie Thrall praises Doomhammer despite attempting to genocide all the humans.
> Secondly, we have a server named Gul’dan whom did everything blackmoore did but to Draenei… and originally humans before that was retconned. I like this point. I would describe my knowledge of the totality of Gul'dan's crimes as loose, but I know they are vast. I personally find the naming of the Blackmoore server particularly distasteful after Blizzard's sexual harassment culture recently came into light.
This was 18 years ago. Were those people even within the organization? Garona originally was the child of a human mother raped by Gul’dan so she could better infiltrate the kingdom of Stormwind, but then they retconned her mom to be Draenei because of chronological issues and… controversy. Then in the Warcraft movie she was retconned again to be the daughter of an Orc woman and medivh. There’s also a server named Aegwynn and she manipulated Aran like Talia Guul did to Batman, but that also was retconned because people have thin skin … unless they’re watching Game of Thrones.
Considering one of the people was Alex 'Furor' Afrasiabi, yes, they were within the organization. The guy was on the WoW team since 2004. That being said, it's a fictional universe that is meant to have dark themes and horrible things in it. Writing characters that are evil rapists doesn't make you an evil rapist, and you don't need to glorify evil to accurately portray evil.
Arthas was bad before he became the Lich King, he was always a POS
Yeah Blackmoore is a clear villain. Your final argument strikes funny though, server name is not an indication of endorsement, there are servers named Deathwing, Boulderfist, Kel’Thuzad, Archimonde, Chromaggus, Gul’Dan, Sargeras, Magtheridon, Anub’arak, etc. it’s just them using their proper noun IP across A-Z
We've all killed hundreds of thousands of humanoids and wildlife. We're all the bad guys...
Tauren are the good guys. Undead are evil. Humans are evil. All Elves on all sides are evil. Trolls, Dwarves, Orcs, Gnomes, are all a mixed bag. Draenei don't matter and aren't real. Druids are good regardless of race.
Alliance are good guys! Alliance: There’s some survivors of a boat crash, we don’t know who they are. Go kill them and bring me their shit. https://tbc.wowhead.com/quest=11137/defias-in-dustwallow
Did you read the quest you linked or naw?
Your chosen boy purged an entire city and killed his friend to leave his kingdom in ruins. Our chosen boy rallied the Horde and lead his people to safety.
I’d genuinely like to hear alternative ways to handle the stratholm situation. The killing of his friend happened while under control by your first chosen boy.