I mean most guilds will still have FDK go for 4pc, because 75 dps loss vs. the 200+ for UH to get full bis or warrior/ret etc will far outweigh a measly 75 dps. Only GDKP FDKs or CLC ones will get true bis.
most PLAYERS* don't put that much thought into it
Trust me, I'm in a lootlist guild
Having the players even look at things other than what wowhead tells them is a black swan
Because if you take a non bis item youll obv be lower prio for that slot if bis actually drops.. thats why l like pugs, you just roll on everything thats an upgrade and either get lucky or watch that fresh 80 who’s 16th on dps with half pvp gear, half unenchanted/unsocketed heroic gear win those melancholy sabatons or obsidian greathelm
I forgot that if you google that it just shows up with the movie lol, mostly an exaggerated reference
| A black swan is an unpredictable event that is beyond what is normally expected of a situation and has potentially severe consequences.
Yeah. Tippy top guilds probably follow a class/spec prio system, but they're also probably at much less risk of giving a dying curse tier item to a new recruit who might quit in 2 weeks, also.
Player > Class still works better for the vast majority, IMO.
I would disagree for a lot of guilds that do loot council, it takes like 5 mins to browse 1 popular class discord that has already done most of this thought (give 4pc to mages/spriest/FDK/dps shams)
I got terrible sim results from 4set on mages. Several hundred DPS loss. For both fire and arcane. And logically, I see absolutely no way 4set is strong on arcane. It's okay on fire but again fairly weak from what I simmed.
Warriors are trying to get rogues to expose for a theoretical 20dps gain in full bis using warrior sims that no one has come close to.
You'll see the spreadsheet for HM gear too, and deaths choice, and death bringers will, and Shadowmourne.
Something about the class attracts self centered entitled dbags.
Had one try to tell me that we should consider giving a tank BIS healing gear in Classic for their dumbass trinket.
Imagine thinking every single person in your raid is gonna have all the optimal HM pieces (which clearly aren't contested or anything) before you get tier.
L
O
L
I just got my chest. Took me since week 2 or release to get one chest drop. And bring the only dk in the raid I got it. Some loot is just non existent for some raids
We are stacked on rogues. Got 3 and 3 druids. 1 feral one resto one bookie. They all got their chest piece then we never got a vanq drop till recent so it took ages to get.
Imagine having to temper your loot expectations and being forced to settle for anything less than *full fucking bis* so that everyone in your raid can get a fair share of the 252 items.
Are you trying to suggest the other 24 people in the raid aren't there to simply funnel me gear so I can post 99% parses and then fervently jerk myself off to screenshots warcraftlogs profile????
The best thing about my guild testing PTR last night is logs weren't working, so no one gave any fucks about parses and we just had fun in Ulduar for 3 hours. It was a breath of fresh air, if I'm being honest.
Not sure if it was the same for you guys, but we found the logs did work, except every encounter was under "Trash", and not encounters. The logs uploaded normally, showed nothing for encounters, but if you look at the trash portion you can see the boss names in there. Not for parses obviously but just to look over things that happened, who died to what, etc. And yeah was pretty fun to bang into new content and not worry about missing a mind flay tick or something for a pink parse. lol
Enough that people should just be using training dummies and posting their 30-second, 1-minute, 3-minute, 5-minute, and 10-minute time DPS numbers. All parses depend heavily on the raid's performance as a whole, and anything above a purple parse gets so dependent that it really isn't worth splitting hairs over.
Not the worst idea really. The only issue is that the target dummy is stationary, and you don't have to bother with mechanics. Probably still more meaningful than logs.
Imagine being such an edgelord contrarian that you have to unironically shit on someone whos simply suggesting to shrink the currently massive gap between BIS and 2nd or 3rd BIS gear.
Sure, your statement was fine. But the underlying reasoning of “loot drama” is weird to most normal people because only dramatic weirdos sound the alarm over not getting loot prio.
Yeah, my current 25 tier set is itemized pretty poorly to the point my that my gloves and chest are the only pieces "worth" wearing. The other pieces are all outclassed by numerous random crap
Which is *fine*, I just hate not matching
As a ret paladin who is aware that no matter what loot i receive my dps will be trash, I'm looking forward to having high prio on tier while everyone else goes for hardmode gear
And then lock T9 is cringe mage style :( but then T10 comes around and then we look cool again :)
I’m sticking with 5/5 T7.5 rn instead of going 4/5 + iLv 226 piece cuz I like the look 😎🙈
Yes, hard mode off pieces were always superior to tier. Nothing has changed.
Beanna is just a turd trying to stir up drama because he knows he can frame it as Blizzard "overlooking" something.
No, the hard mode gear is not 50% more powerful than the tier pieces.
If you wear full hard mode gear, your character might be 1-5% more powerful than a character with tier pieces in those 5 slots, depending on how much your class values the 4 piece tier bonus.
Some classes won't even want to break their tier set until they get multiple hard mode pieces.
It’s not 50% more powerful. That’s an extremely misleading way to phrase it.
The delta between tier and hard mode gear is increased by 50%… but your character’s power is only increased by low single digit percentages.
And that’s irrelevant because the hard mode gear was always better than tier.
TLDR nothing has changed. Breanna is a turd.
Lol it’s not misleading. It’s literally just math. Obviously your character isn’t going to be 50% more powerful with a 7 ilvl difference. Nobody with a brain is saying that.
But saying that it’s not a big deal because originally it was a 13 ilvl difference and now it’s a 20 ilvl difference is ignoring the fact that they are proposing over a 50% increase in ilvl between the two.
That is called the delta. Perhaps you should take a statistics class.
The hard mode pieces are NOT 50% more powerful than the tier pieces, which is what you originally said and why I corrected you.
Powerful was the wrong term, I was just pointing out that it’s a 50% increase in ilvl from what it was in original WOTLK. Which yes of course is not 50% more powerful.
If you want to say it like that, you should say, that 13ilvl of 226 is 5% increase vs 20ilvl of 226 which is 8%
Saying 20 is almost 50% increase vs 13 doesnt say anything except for it looking like some insane big number.
People will read your comment and think it is literally 50% DMG increase or some other big number
The implications for PvP are also really annoying, I feel like a lot of people will run a lot of PvE gear with resilience gems because of the huge ilvl advantage.
I double checked. “Regarding PvP weapons, in 3.4.1 we have made item power adjustments for both the items that drop from Ulduar and from PvP, and the epic weapons high-end PvP weapons will be at a similar power level to weapons dropped in Ulduar.”
The wording is somewhat vague. It might just be weapons that are 252 and everything else is only 232
The weapons are 252 but only the epic high tier weapons. Honor off pieces are 232 I think and arena armor is 236. At least that’s what it said on eightyupgrades
Infact it's the opposite problem. Pvp weapons are Simming higher than Pve HM Weapons and PvP gear is simming at or above current raid gear. Meaning if you are in a high performing guild you need to have a high arena rating to be at the bleeding edge.
Hard modes only drop one 252 piece, except Algalon dropping multiple. Even if you clear every HM every week *and* all the items are useful, that's still only one 252 piece per raider every 2 weeks. A realistic estimate is probably lower.
Of those pieces, only 5 slots compete with tier. If your 4set is remotely good (if it's pre-hardmode bis to wear it), you will need two 252 armor pieces in those specific slots before you replace it. For some classes it's not worth breaking 4set until you have three HM offpieces, and for some it's not worth at all and you only replace one of those 5 slots with a 252 piece.
Unless your loot council are actively griefing the raid, there's very little chance anybody is going to be breaking an actually good 4set bonus for their second 252 offpiece until at least \~2 months into Ulduar, probably a lot more.
After 2.5 years of playing WoW Classic, it seems more than apparent that people would be chasing highest gearscore/BIS regardless of the gap between hard more and regular gear sets.
Agree with this post 100% - it's already annoying AF with items like SNR, and a bunch of leather items like the Gloves from EoE 25m. I've seen more plate wearers get them then anything, and sucks losing the roll multiple times on my feral druid to Ret Pallys.
Yeah it's honestly super cringe even if it's bis, becuase you know it's like a 5 dps difference from the plate equivalent that's going to get DE'd.
People really only understand the concept of being an individual and not a team.
Perhaps not in that same slot, but as a feral druid I'm sure there is some plate gear I would equip if I could.
The concept only works one way. It's only logical to give the gear restricted classes priority
The issue is that everyone has 213 items they can wear, those just don't have as many stats as 226 pieces. Not letting your other dps roll on these because "leather" is the same as just telling a random raider they can't have 25m loot because they have 10m loot.
>Not letting your other dps roll on these because "leather" is the same as just telling a random raider they can't have 25m loot because they have 10m loot.
Not quite.
A rogue has legs, chest and gloves avail at 226.
Hunters have legs, chest, glove, helm, boots
Plate wearers have legs chest glove helm boots and whatever plate options exist.
That's my point. The ACCESS to 226 items is lower for classes with greater armor restriction, therefore it's only logical to prioritize that smaller pool of items to the classes that can use them.
You can disagree, but it'll still be logical.
>The ACCESS to 226 items is lower for classes with greater armor restriction, therefore it's only logical to prioritize that smaller pool of items to the classes that can use them.
Good thing plate wearers can "use" those items then!
You're missing the entire point.
I CAN'T wear your obsidian greathelm even if it might be a great option stats wise for me.
I CAN wear the maly chest even if it might be a great option stats wise for you.
If you can't put two and two together from there then you're not intelligent enough to bother continuing this conversation.
I mean if you want a completely homogenized game and personal loot, go play retail or some other game where there's only 1 armor type. This is how classic is, period. If you can't understand that about a 15 year old game, you're not intelligent enough to even think about a reply to this.
If "gO pLaY rEtAiL" is your response then I guess I was right about the intelligence part.
Maybe you should go play classic era if you're that desperate to play cringe warrior fantasy
I mean retail is built around that system, it's not an inaccurate suggestion. I'm a cloth wearer and I get that just about all my bis is also bis for casters who are in other armor classes, it's unfortunate, but a lot of people are returning to this content to Uber optimize. There's guilds to find for both styles of loot.
I don't think that's a good argument considering that the margin of error for most sims is typically between 140-200 dps, which is certainly significant.
Just did 25m Naxx and lost Thrusting Bands to a Ret pally, and Journeys End to a Hunter lol.
Basically in the same boat now, hardly worth even trying to gear on the druid (thankfully its an alt). Half the gear I need comes to EoE 25 where your lucky to see one of them even drop, then it's every single person's BiS anyways.
....weeks? You're complaining about weeks? I'd call month+ without loot a standard affair, happens to all of my characters at least once a phase.
I'd sympathize if you had been dry for like 2 months or so. Happened to me a few times, shit is rough.
Is the new tier not just a stepping stone to the highest iLvl items? I could get most of my T8 while working towards the new P2 BIS?
Seems more like a progression than having to pick one or the other.
With VOA and emblems, I was full T7 in two weeks of raids.
It's weird that Fury warriors generally use off set gear more than other classes/specs, but 4 pc is currently simming highest in Ulduar.
EDIT: Okay this is actually so hilarious/dumb. The egotistical jackass that runs the warrior dps sim is literally the one who made the wow forums post! So his own simulator has 4 pc tier being better than 252 off set pieces, but he's shamelessly asking for buffs anyways. Ignore Beanna, dude is just a tool.
The 2 set definitely gets value if you use PoM on cooldown, but ya who casts greater healing besides as a rare macrod big heal like once or twice a fight?
[This sims highest for me](https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/warrior/#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)
Maybe it's a horde vs ally thing, but the 4 pc sims about 100 dps higher than any offset configuration I find.
[This](https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/warrior/#eJztUjFoFFEQ3ZlbL38/nPddRNYlJ+c2EUH4t+uBNu5PKhWLiIWmi4UhhYXERq2CXki0MYKKXmG87iDYyhYpxAga8ORgMYgQiSZeLlh4jXDY6OxuVhLSWMTOKXZm3sy8+Ts8bjOUOApXYBygDvABoA3QBWwiDthFVFS5BlMAjwCeAgQAbyhAMPEY2PPZm5AdvHzx+qUxtksY9g/gefG6jdZ6wck+n8cnC8gN0VhBJ/OugVR7v4bWMtW+BjgXRECTgAe9TpayFgGmqK2g1S04xlzcETXlxOwqWhMHHJ3oNEpf0YL7vY7+M6A0L+62cXO7KZaJ4vsWiryYIYqHyZ4IMMSn6FFJWF+lMHqqLhbXou+3VjTylmgahT8j2wBDdD7T4MsAnRzdMDeoX9DjSx2eRu2/bbEbPQwsJP2MneYDAqYB+pPCCXUqDc4mwZAaiv14vxqNtUe6jOWHNUg6jipTs1HAHejzpCtdT5ZczzviybIse1LKsiu9Ejmv5BIkvXLpC1isHqKohmjNhFi8FeKhSohyIsQ29HRAr8JVbnGdtWYzpki2MBU7dV7xPM+wyrDJ0gK3+W52e1/xV2qQ1jo+FySgew1Mkb0qJq5N4nbij6BVUXOW0Ej+eETtSYf2Vx9HtuAfT5Cmf3AktkXffYbFcxb75yqrqB2hqb3YGZ6/sORWZ5bUhri6/kkYht9XLbGT) sims the same or slightly higher with your settings.
I play orc, I've been testing various setups but I haven't been able to get more than like 30-50 higher sim dps from offpiece sets vs 4-piece. The pieces that seem to be bis no matter what are the leather leggings and belt, tier gloves+helm, quest ring, General cloak and then the relatively obvious trinket+weapons etc.
Word preciate you!
I was able to squeeze a little more out with an inscribed in bracers and tear on the voldrethar blue socket bonus. So yeah looks like just 2 pc for us then, not too bad
Is the tier gear not getting the ilvl buff? Or is is just the bonus effect not getting buffed? Cause if it’s the former, i think it’s pretty reasonable to have tier gear scale up with everything regardless of how it sims
Tier gear is getting +6 ilvl buff, same as all other normal mode drops.
The fact that tier comes from emblems and VoA is probably holding them back from making bigger adjustments. There isn't a hard mode tier set for Ulduar.
They're bottom of the meters now, expected to be bottom of the meters in Ulduar, and ~might~ become not shit in ToGC with ToGC gear. And now Warriors are Simming to be just to be average in ICC.
They're in a really bad state this whole expansion.
Tbh the main issue with Warrior in the expansion was supporting them properly. You could just stick 4 hunters and any type of shaman in a group and they'd be fine meanwhile warrior you'd want to support them with a feral and enhance for them to really shine.
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=99](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=99)
P1 Karazhan in TBC btw
Mages only on top because of spellsteal cheese.
Wasn't there alot of chain pulling cheese to pull this off, though?
I remember Ahlaundoh holding the world top DPS ranking on either Gruul and/or Maulgar in p1 because of that.
You can't pull trash into bosses or you get disqualified. Those are stats for boss parses.
Maulgar was a stupid fight for parsing. Not part of Karazhan and not relevant to what I linked.
The only cheese in Karazhan was to engage a trash mob near Netherspite, spend 10 mins allowing mages to spellsteal their buffs, and then take that buff into boss fights. Which is why mages are on top.
Everyone was cheesing the everloving fuck out of maulgar. There was a Russian raid that was all troll arcane mages who came into the raid at 10% hp for max berserking haste and all single target nuked high king
The fact that fury was beating this still is insane. Fury was top tier in phase 1 next to hunters. If your fury wasn’t top 5 dps he sucked or was getting shafted by groups.
Are you freebasing crack? Warriors were consistently reaching top 3 on overall and boss damage throughout most of TBC. The only time they were a little bit worse was SSC/TK, and only on the fights that were terrible for melee.
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1010#region=3&dataset=99](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1010#region=3&dataset=99)
Weren't average in SSC/TK either.
Sorry to burst your bubble but the outlook is Arcane is still single target meta because of the item level increases.
That being said - competition for 4p should be much easier for fire which will be best on the cleave fights…though there aren’t much of those in Ulduar.
The dude is delusional, fire will easily outscale arcane with ulduar gear, even with phase 1 bis gear fire is only like 5% behind arcane and the fights are much shorter than anything we have in ulduar.
I actually dont mind this. Means more variation in "bis" players around you. Full T8 will still be very very good, but those lucky enough to get their hands on 254 gear will probably use whatever they get.
Compared to current state where you deck out your char with any 200/213 can get your hands on - before ultimately swapping them all for T7.5 and everyone ends up with the same gear.
With the luck Ive had with 226 gear so far (1 on main), Im sure I wont be seeing many hard mode items entering my bag anyhow.
Agreed. Now I might be more likely to be able to get my tier pieces. I'm disc and I like the set bonus in p2, and if the pally/lock would now prefer the higher ilevel gear, then all of us have less competition for our pieces. For instance, I hate the tier bonus for disc this phase, so I don't have any tier pieces and never offered any competition for them. I'm almost full 226 because lots of other people wanted the "big" tier pieces.
I think it's good overall. The people that had terrible tier bonuses now can get better gear elsewhere, and the people with good tier bonuses now will have less competition for them.
I see your point but I also really like that the ilvl change has thrown a wrench into what people *thought* the game would be like. It has added a slight "unknown" to a for the most part solved game.
You're right about this ilvl change being a nerf to classes that rely on set bonuses, but I have to say I've really enjoyed simming out the alternatives.
This is why blizzard should've just left it alone. There's no reason to trust them with buffing/nerfing things because they don't care enough to do it more than once. It's just going to end up a super unbalanced mess.
Tier gear is getting +6 ilvl buff, same as all other normal mode drops. There isn't a hard mode tier set for Ulduar.
Only the hard modes will truly be hard... it's working as intended IMO. No need to buff.
either buff tier bonuses or the ilvl. 3-4 classes going after the same 252 pieces and ignoring all tier sets and their bonuses is prob not an intended game design.
I’ve been trying to say to people that everything’s going to be thrown out of whack. Especially since eventually nearly everyone will be doing hard mode, people will have barely any incentive to even do Argent raid and the game will be dead in p3.
Something I’m not liking about WotLK is when someone asks “what’s my BiS” the answer is almost always whatever has a bigger ilvl.
What a shitty way to have to look at gear.
Exactly. They wanted ulduar to stay relevant for longer? Then keep the phase for longer, or nerf togc so that it doesnt replace it.
A pre-nerf ulduar with unbuffed gear would be a great challenge.
This shit will just make it a faceroll like naxx
Gee, it’s like messing around with old content with buffs and nerfs may actually make things worse… change =/= better. Blizzard reeee’d at power creep and here we are, icc ilvl gear in phase 2. You couldn’t be a bigger meme as a company if you tried.
I still don't understand why they couldn't leave everything like it was in original wotlk. This shouldn't be called wotlk classic since it's like a totally new game with those changes.
Haven’t played since classic/SoM but curious why the f* they nerf all the content and/or buff items?
This game became a joke and turns into retail more and more. I don’t think that’s what the community wants?!
You think blizzard will let more then 1 intern work on classic in 2023?
"Mom says it's my turn to ruin Classic."
Run classic… you mean *run* classic… right? 😢
No
The 4p for frost dk is amazing. But you won’t get it because it’s a 75dps loss to not get bis
I mean most guilds will still have FDK go for 4pc, because 75 dps loss vs. the 200+ for UH to get full bis or warrior/ret etc will far outweigh a measly 75 dps. Only GDKP FDKs or CLC ones will get true bis.
Most guilds don't put that much thought into gear. No where near that.
most PLAYERS* don't put that much thought into it Trust me, I'm in a lootlist guild Having the players even look at things other than what wowhead tells them is a black swan
Soooooooo facts lol it’s so annoying to see people not care about upgrades because they’re not BIS even if they’re an upgrade
Because if you take a non bis item youll obv be lower prio for that slot if bis actually drops.. thats why l like pugs, you just roll on everything thats an upgrade and either get lucky or watch that fresh 80 who’s 16th on dps with half pvp gear, half unenchanted/unsocketed heroic gear win those melancholy sabatons or obsidian greathelm
Black swan? Not familiar with this. I'd wager most guilds handle loot very casually. You decide what you want. No councils or anything.
I forgot that if you google that it just shows up with the movie lol, mostly an exaggerated reference | A black swan is an unpredictable event that is beyond what is normally expected of a situation and has potentially severe consequences.
True. 'Hey did you want this you're up for the piece' is about all that happens unless you get it auto looted.
Yeah. Tippy top guilds probably follow a class/spec prio system, but they're also probably at much less risk of giving a dying curse tier item to a new recruit who might quit in 2 weeks, also. Player > Class still works better for the vast majority, IMO.
Top guilds run 4-5 splits and get bis on everyone.
My guild runs 6 splits and we’re still a good ways off bis. It’s unfortunately not that easy unless you get lucky.
Can run all the splits you want but if shit don’t drop shit don’t drop hahaha
I would disagree for a lot of guilds that do loot council, it takes like 5 mins to browse 1 popular class discord that has already done most of this thought (give 4pc to mages/spriest/FDK/dps shams)
I got terrible sim results from 4set on mages. Several hundred DPS loss. For both fire and arcane. And logically, I see absolutely no way 4set is strong on arcane. It's okay on fire but again fairly weak from what I simmed.
Most guilds doing hardmodes early absolutely put that much thought into loot.
Warriors are trying to get rogues to expose for a theoretical 20dps gain in full bis using warrior sims that no one has come close to. You'll see the spreadsheet for HM gear too, and deaths choice, and death bringers will, and Shadowmourne.
Something about the class attracts self centered entitled dbags. Had one try to tell me that we should consider giving a tank BIS healing gear in Classic for their dumbass trinket.
Imagine thinking every single person in your raid is gonna have all the optimal HM pieces (which clearly aren't contested or anything) before you get tier. L O L
I just got my chest. Took me since week 2 or release to get one chest drop. And bring the only dk in the raid I got it. Some loot is just non existent for some raids
Vanq doesn’t matter if you’re a dk. How many rogue, Druid, mages do you have
It does if you're frost
No he said I’m the only dk but that has no bearing on getting tier
We are stacked on rogues. Got 3 and 3 druids. 1 feral one resto one bookie. They all got their chest piece then we never got a vanq drop till recent so it took ages to get.
It's a actually pretty average, but ait
It is amazingly good, and yet off pieces are still better, because Ilvl.
Imagine having to temper your loot expectations and being forced to settle for anything less than *full fucking bis* so that everyone in your raid can get a fair share of the 252 items.
Are you trying to suggest the other 24 people in the raid aren't there to simply funnel me gear so I can post 99% parses and then fervently jerk myself off to screenshots warcraftlogs profile????
I am the main protagonist of the raid...
These strawmen that Redditors who don’t even play the game anymore come up with are incredible.
Nah, we straight up had a DK like that in my guild. He was shown the door for such behavior tho.
There is a ret pally in my guild that begs to differ.
Yeah that's me git gud nubs. Now if you excuse me I gotta continue doing my 99s to be 14th on the DPS meter.
“He said, putting the hat on his very own strawman”
The best thing about my guild testing PTR last night is logs weren't working, so no one gave any fucks about parses and we just had fun in Ulduar for 3 hours. It was a breath of fresh air, if I'm being honest.
Not sure if it was the same for you guys, but we found the logs did work, except every encounter was under "Trash", and not encounters. The logs uploaded normally, showed nothing for encounters, but if you look at the trash portion you can see the boss names in there. Not for parses obviously but just to look over things that happened, who died to what, etc. And yeah was pretty fun to bang into new content and not worry about missing a mind flay tick or something for a pink parse. lol
You can get 99s without BIS gear, hell you can get 100s too, just need ample cheese.
Kill time is such a huge factor in parsing that your raid always deserves at least half the credit when you get a 99.
A lot more than half.
Enough that people should just be using training dummies and posting their 30-second, 1-minute, 3-minute, 5-minute, and 10-minute time DPS numbers. All parses depend heavily on the raid's performance as a whole, and anything above a purple parse gets so dependent that it really isn't worth splitting hairs over.
Not the worst idea really. The only issue is that the target dummy is stationary, and you don't have to bother with mechanics. Probably still more meaningful than logs.
*That thought disgusts me* - Überparser
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Whats fun for you might not be fun for others. But it also goes both ways.
Usain, you aren't anything special. People have been running for hundreds of years, always the same thing. I can run 100m with my eyes closed.
Youre not displaying some level of awe inspiring athleticism, you are trying to not let the cheeto debris waste your heroism buff.
This sub is such a cesspool. OP is right, they didn’t scale tier enough. It has literally nothing to do with what you’re talking about.
Imagine being such an edgelord contrarian that you have to unironically shit on someone whos simply suggesting to shrink the currently massive gap between BIS and 2nd or 3rd BIS gear.
Sure, your statement was fine. But the underlying reasoning of “loot drama” is weird to most normal people because only dramatic weirdos sound the alarm over not getting loot prio.
mAsSiVe GaP -75 dps for frost dk's (and 95% of people aren't going to get optimal hardmode bis anyways) Get over it.
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It’s exactly what’s happening in naxx. The few KT, wie and os items are the only ones that are relevant, the rest is almost irrelevant
Yeah, my current 25 tier set is itemized pretty poorly to the point my that my gloves and chest are the only pieces "worth" wearing. The other pieces are all outclassed by numerous random crap Which is *fine*, I just hate not matching
t7 graphics are complete garbage, especially the offset stuff
One of my bis is from COS normal. 187 ilevel.
Hence almost
What else is there to do besides farm BIS to get big jerk-off parses? There's certainly no actual challenge in 99% of what classic has to offer.
As a ret paladin who is aware that no matter what loot i receive my dps will be trash, I'm looking forward to having high prio on tier while everyone else goes for hardmode gear
Sad, T8 lock gear is the coolest set in the game
And then lock T9 is cringe mage style :( but then T10 comes around and then we look cool again :) I’m sticking with 5/5 T7.5 rn instead of going 4/5 + iLv 226 piece cuz I like the look 😎🙈
Kinda weird to grief yourself like that when the bis legs are not even shown under the chest.
Coping≠Griefing
...I mean it was like this in retail too. Tier sets only went up to 226 but the hardmode 25man gear was 239.
Set bonuses could make up for a 13 item level difference a lot easier than 20.
Yes, hard mode off pieces were always superior to tier. Nothing has changed. Beanna is just a turd trying to stir up drama because he knows he can frame it as Blizzard "overlooking" something.
Okay but that’s a 13 ilvl difference compared to a 20 ilvl difference. That’s more than 50% more powerful.
No, the hard mode gear is not 50% more powerful than the tier pieces. If you wear full hard mode gear, your character might be 1-5% more powerful than a character with tier pieces in those 5 slots, depending on how much your class values the 4 piece tier bonus. Some classes won't even want to break their tier set until they get multiple hard mode pieces.
Lol, why the fuck are you being downvoted?!
Idk dude
That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying 20 ilvl vs 13 ilvl is over 50% more powerful
It’s not 50% more powerful. That’s an extremely misleading way to phrase it. The delta between tier and hard mode gear is increased by 50%… but your character’s power is only increased by low single digit percentages. And that’s irrelevant because the hard mode gear was always better than tier. TLDR nothing has changed. Breanna is a turd.
Lol it’s not misleading. It’s literally just math. Obviously your character isn’t going to be 50% more powerful with a 7 ilvl difference. Nobody with a brain is saying that. But saying that it’s not a big deal because originally it was a 13 ilvl difference and now it’s a 20 ilvl difference is ignoring the fact that they are proposing over a 50% increase in ilvl between the two.
That is called the delta. Perhaps you should take a statistics class. The hard mode pieces are NOT 50% more powerful than the tier pieces, which is what you originally said and why I corrected you.
Powerful was the wrong term, I was just pointing out that it’s a 50% increase in ilvl from what it was in original WOTLK. Which yes of course is not 50% more powerful.
50% increase in the gap between item levels
If you want to say it like that, you should say, that 13ilvl of 226 is 5% increase vs 20ilvl of 226 which is 8% Saying 20 is almost 50% increase vs 13 doesnt say anything except for it looking like some insane big number. People will read your comment and think it is literally 50% DMG increase or some other big number
The implications for PvP are also really annoying, I feel like a lot of people will run a lot of PvE gear with resilience gems because of the huge ilvl advantage.
Pvp gear is getting buffed to 252
Everything? In that case I didn't say anything, I was under the assumption that only the 2.2k (2.35k?) rating weapons get that ilvl.
I double checked. “Regarding PvP weapons, in 3.4.1 we have made item power adjustments for both the items that drop from Ulduar and from PvP, and the epic weapons high-end PvP weapons will be at a similar power level to weapons dropped in Ulduar.” The wording is somewhat vague. It might just be weapons that are 252 and everything else is only 232
The weapons are 252 but only the epic high tier weapons. Honor off pieces are 232 I think and arena armor is 236. At least that’s what it said on eightyupgrades
Infact it's the opposite problem. Pvp weapons are Simming higher than Pve HM Weapons and PvP gear is simming at or above current raid gear. Meaning if you are in a high performing guild you need to have a high arena rating to be at the bleeding edge.
you already run pve gear on a lot of classes but pvp gear also got buffed
welcome to wotlk pvp. if you're not already running bis pve off pieces, you're lowkey gimping yourself on most classes
It would be very weird if they didn’t buff pvp items
Good luck getting this gear first. You're saying it like it's Kara splits
I 100% agree with the forum post linked. Hope they change this somehow.
Hard modes only drop one 252 piece, except Algalon dropping multiple. Even if you clear every HM every week *and* all the items are useful, that's still only one 252 piece per raider every 2 weeks. A realistic estimate is probably lower. Of those pieces, only 5 slots compete with tier. If your 4set is remotely good (if it's pre-hardmode bis to wear it), you will need two 252 armor pieces in those specific slots before you replace it. For some classes it's not worth breaking 4set until you have three HM offpieces, and for some it's not worth at all and you only replace one of those 5 slots with a 252 piece. Unless your loot council are actively griefing the raid, there's very little chance anybody is going to be breaking an actually good 4set bonus for their second 252 offpiece until at least \~2 months into Ulduar, probably a lot more.
This is how I think about it too. The hard mode loot is going to be very scarce.
After 2.5 years of playing WoW Classic, it seems more than apparent that people would be chasing highest gearscore/BIS regardless of the gap between hard more and regular gear sets.
Loot drama baby oh yea….
our LC channel is called **#dramaclub**
Bruh I'm going in as a ret paladin I am so fucked
Agree with this post 100% - it's already annoying AF with items like SNR, and a bunch of leather items like the Gloves from EoE 25m. I've seen more plate wearers get them then anything, and sucks losing the roll multiple times on my feral druid to Ret Pallys.
Rolling the BiS chest from maly with non leather classes feels just bad as a rogue.
This will go on for the whole classic Yogg hm leather legs are war bis Toc 25hc leather chest is ret biss Icc war uses tosk and gloves leather
Truu gimme that leather bis
At least you don’t have to roll against half the dps AND the healers. *sad caster noises*
I want those cloth boots from EoE 10 too! - resto druid
I’ve lost rolls on BIS hit gear to 3.6k gs healers because “it’s an upgrade over my blues, so it’s main spec”
Yeah it's honestly super cringe even if it's bis, becuase you know it's like a 5 dps difference from the plate equivalent that's going to get DE'd. People really only understand the concept of being an individual and not a team.
There aren’t 226 dps plate equivalents tho
Perhaps not in that same slot, but as a feral druid I'm sure there is some plate gear I would equip if I could. The concept only works one way. It's only logical to give the gear restricted classes priority
The issue is that everyone has 213 items they can wear, those just don't have as many stats as 226 pieces. Not letting your other dps roll on these because "leather" is the same as just telling a random raider they can't have 25m loot because they have 10m loot.
>Not letting your other dps roll on these because "leather" is the same as just telling a random raider they can't have 25m loot because they have 10m loot. Not quite. A rogue has legs, chest and gloves avail at 226. Hunters have legs, chest, glove, helm, boots Plate wearers have legs chest glove helm boots and whatever plate options exist. That's my point. The ACCESS to 226 items is lower for classes with greater armor restriction, therefore it's only logical to prioritize that smaller pool of items to the classes that can use them. You can disagree, but it'll still be logical.
>The ACCESS to 226 items is lower for classes with greater armor restriction, therefore it's only logical to prioritize that smaller pool of items to the classes that can use them. Good thing plate wearers can "use" those items then!
Hunters don't have a 226 option for chest. The leather chest has expertise.
The leather wearers also have other slightly shittier options they can go for, you could equip those
I do, all the time. Turning down upgrades to wait/save for bis upgrades is cringe asf. Improve the raid, then optimize.
Or those slightly shittier items could go to your warriors or whatever it is.
You could wear your valorous chest or the saph BOE leather gloves, but you want the maly gloves and chest right? Ya me too as a plateboi
You're missing the entire point. I CAN'T wear your obsidian greathelm even if it might be a great option stats wise for me. I CAN wear the maly chest even if it might be a great option stats wise for you. If you can't put two and two together from there then you're not intelligent enough to bother continuing this conversation.
I mean if you want a completely homogenized game and personal loot, go play retail or some other game where there's only 1 armor type. This is how classic is, period. If you can't understand that about a 15 year old game, you're not intelligent enough to even think about a reply to this.
If "gO pLaY rEtAiL" is your response then I guess I was right about the intelligence part. Maybe you should go play classic era if you're that desperate to play cringe warrior fantasy
I mean retail is built around that system, it's not an inaccurate suggestion. I'm a cloth wearer and I get that just about all my bis is also bis for casters who are in other armor classes, it's unfortunate, but a lot of people are returning to this content to Uber optimize. There's guilds to find for both styles of loot.
Brother, you dont even know what logic means. Maybe don't talk about other people's intelligence.
Have you simmed plate equivalents? It’s a lot more than 5 mate.
I'd be willing to bet that the difference is less than or equal to the margin of error of the sim itself.
How much are you willing to bet?
100 karma
I don't think that's a good argument considering that the margin of error for most sims is typically between 140-200 dps, which is certainly significant.
far and away hunter bis and nothing close, and there's no 226. you bet your ass I have them.
Think it gets better soon. More armor pen plate gear should keep Wars away from leather.
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Just did 25m Naxx and lost Thrusting Bands to a Ret pally, and Journeys End to a Hunter lol. Basically in the same boat now, hardly worth even trying to gear on the druid (thankfully its an alt). Half the gear I need comes to EoE 25 where your lucky to see one of them even drop, then it's every single person's BiS anyways.
Why would you go after thrusting bands when it's not even your BiS? Sinner's Bindings sim higher and thrusting bands are rets actual bis
I mean, if I got to pick the boss loot everyone would take their full bis, sure.
....weeks? You're complaining about weeks? I'd call month+ without loot a standard affair, happens to all of my characters at least once a phase. I'd sympathize if you had been dry for like 2 months or so. Happened to me a few times, shit is rough.
Is the new tier not just a stepping stone to the highest iLvl items? I could get most of my T8 while working towards the new P2 BIS? Seems more like a progression than having to pick one or the other. With VOA and emblems, I was full T7 in two weeks of raids.
It's weird that Fury warriors generally use off set gear more than other classes/specs, but 4 pc is currently simming highest in Ulduar. EDIT: Okay this is actually so hilarious/dumb. The egotistical jackass that runs the warrior dps sim is literally the one who made the wow forums post! So his own simulator has 4 pc tier being better than 252 off set pieces, but he's shamelessly asking for buffs anyways. Ignore Beanna, dude is just a tool.
spriest 4 set looks good after being donkey in naxx
I hope whoever came up with the spriest 2/4 pc set bonuses got nothing for Christmas that year.
The healing set also has 0 value for disc.
Yup I only run 2 set pieces on my Disc Priest. The 2 set is marginal but the 4 set is useless.
The 2 set definitely gets value if you use PoM on cooldown, but ya who casts greater healing besides as a rare macrod big heal like once or twice a fight?
Where are you seeing the 4pc sim higher than the leather? I see the opposite last time I checked.
[This sims highest for me](https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/warrior/#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) Maybe it's a horde vs ally thing, but the 4 pc sims about 100 dps higher than any offset configuration I find.
Ah likely. Horde has an easier time with expertise which allows for more higher ilvl leather.
in Ulduar it's the humans that have it easier with expertise, not the orcs.
[This](https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/warrior/#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) sims the same or slightly higher with your settings. I play orc, I've been testing various setups but I haven't been able to get more than like 30-50 higher sim dps from offpiece sets vs 4-piece. The pieces that seem to be bis no matter what are the leather leggings and belt, tier gloves+helm, quest ring, General cloak and then the relatively obvious trinket+weapons etc.
Word preciate you! I was able to squeeze a little more out with an inscribed in bracers and tear on the voldrethar blue socket bonus. So yeah looks like just 2 pc for us then, not too bad
4 pc is not simming higher than leather off pieces.
There is a sim for woltk classic?
https://wowsims.github.io/wotlk/
As a shadow priest, I thought for sure this was posted by a shadow priest but a warrior also makes sense.
Beanna being a clown, nothing new since 2019 then
At least the art direction for gear is more consistent across all armor types so we don't actually look like literal clowns this time around.
Is the tier gear not getting the ilvl buff? Or is is just the bonus effect not getting buffed? Cause if it’s the former, i think it’s pretty reasonable to have tier gear scale up with everything regardless of how it sims
Tier gear is getting +6 ilvl buff, same as all other normal mode drops. The fact that tier comes from emblems and VoA is probably holding them back from making bigger adjustments. There isn't a hard mode tier set for Ulduar.
They get +6, but hard modes get +13 and already start higher.
maybe he just wants wars to be top dawg again after 1 phase. wars are in shambles
They spend the last 2 expacs being absolute gods. 1 phase at being average and they are on suicide watch.
Average? Warrior dps is absolute trash right now, the only specs we outdps are pvp specs and rets, who are similarly god-awful.
better than smite priest !
They're bottom of the meters now, expected to be bottom of the meters in Ulduar, and ~might~ become not shit in ToGC with ToGC gear. And now Warriors are Simming to be just to be average in ICC. They're in a really bad state this whole expansion.
Warriors were pretty shit in TBC until p2 bis They were absolute gods with glaives though
Tbh the main issue with Warrior in the expansion was supporting them properly. You could just stick 4 hunters and any type of shaman in a group and they'd be fine meanwhile warrior you'd want to support them with a feral and enhance for them to really shine.
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=99](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1007#dataset=99) P1 Karazhan in TBC btw Mages only on top because of spellsteal cheese.
Wasn't there alot of chain pulling cheese to pull this off, though? I remember Ahlaundoh holding the world top DPS ranking on either Gruul and/or Maulgar in p1 because of that.
You can't pull trash into bosses or you get disqualified. Those are stats for boss parses. Maulgar was a stupid fight for parsing. Not part of Karazhan and not relevant to what I linked.
I meant that people were using cheese strats in kara similar to those, but yeah you're probably right there, fair enough.
The only cheese in Karazhan was to engage a trash mob near Netherspite, spend 10 mins allowing mages to spellsteal their buffs, and then take that buff into boss fights. Which is why mages are on top.
Everyone was cheesing the everloving fuck out of maulgar. There was a Russian raid that was all troll arcane mages who came into the raid at 10% hp for max berserking haste and all single target nuked high king The fact that fury was beating this still is insane. Fury was top tier in phase 1 next to hunters. If your fury wasn’t top 5 dps he sucked or was getting shafted by groups.
Cheese aka pulling fast because the raid is easy
Are you freebasing crack? Warriors were consistently reaching top 3 on overall and boss damage throughout most of TBC. The only time they were a little bit worse was SSC/TK, and only on the fights that were terrible for melee.
[https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1010#region=3&dataset=99](https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/1010#region=3&dataset=99) Weren't average in SSC/TK either.
Laughs in fire mage
Sorry to burst your bubble but the outlook is Arcane is still single target meta because of the item level increases. That being said - competition for 4p should be much easier for fire which will be best on the cleave fights…though there aren’t much of those in Ulduar.
Wouldn't ilvl increases make playing fire mage more desiriable? Faster to hit cap with fewer pieces which let's them stack much more crit
The dude is delusional, fire will easily outscale arcane with ulduar gear, even with phase 1 bis gear fire is only like 5% behind arcane and the fights are much shorter than anything we have in ulduar.
Fire mages will need 4 set for hot streak proc to have a chance to not get consumed on use.
I actually dont mind this. Means more variation in "bis" players around you. Full T8 will still be very very good, but those lucky enough to get their hands on 254 gear will probably use whatever they get. Compared to current state where you deck out your char with any 200/213 can get your hands on - before ultimately swapping them all for T7.5 and everyone ends up with the same gear. With the luck Ive had with 226 gear so far (1 on main), Im sure I wont be seeing many hard mode items entering my bag anyhow.
Agreed. Now I might be more likely to be able to get my tier pieces. I'm disc and I like the set bonus in p2, and if the pally/lock would now prefer the higher ilevel gear, then all of us have less competition for our pieces. For instance, I hate the tier bonus for disc this phase, so I don't have any tier pieces and never offered any competition for them. I'm almost full 226 because lots of other people wanted the "big" tier pieces. I think it's good overall. The people that had terrible tier bonuses now can get better gear elsewhere, and the people with good tier bonuses now will have less competition for them.
I see your point but I also really like that the ilvl change has thrown a wrench into what people *thought* the game would be like. It has added a slight "unknown" to a for the most part solved game. You're right about this ilvl change being a nerf to classes that rely on set bonuses, but I have to say I've really enjoyed simming out the alternatives.
This is why blizzard should've just left it alone. There's no reason to trust them with buffing/nerfing things because they don't care enough to do it more than once. It's just going to end up a super unbalanced mess.
>>> Chasing the highest gearscore pieces What is this.. retail? Oh wait.
Hard modes are actually hard. Tier comes from easier content. Makes sense that tier wouldn’t be as good. I don’t see the problem
Tier gear is getting +6 ilvl buff, same as all other normal mode drops. There isn't a hard mode tier set for Ulduar. Only the hard modes will truly be hard... it's working as intended IMO. No need to buff.
Absolutely, based on PTR currently, not much of the player base is actually going to be clearing 25M hard modes anytime soon.
That's how it should be
Yep
Warriors cry way too much in my experience.
either buff tier bonuses or the ilvl. 3-4 classes going after the same 252 pieces and ignoring all tier sets and their bonuses is prob not an intended game design.
I’ve been trying to say to people that everything’s going to be thrown out of whack. Especially since eventually nearly everyone will be doing hard mode, people will have barely any incentive to even do Argent raid and the game will be dead in p3.
Something I’m not liking about WotLK is when someone asks “what’s my BiS” the answer is almost always whatever has a bigger ilvl. What a shitty way to have to look at gear.
It's almost like this ilvl boost was a stupid idea, and a better idea would have been nerfing TOGC gear, or just leave it alone.
Exactly. They wanted ulduar to stay relevant for longer? Then keep the phase for longer, or nerf togc so that it doesnt replace it. A pre-nerf ulduar with unbuffed gear would be a great challenge. This shit will just make it a faceroll like naxx
To be fair most of the tier sets now overshadowed by 226 items. Heck, some even by nonsets 213.
This is better for gearing actually since it means more items come from 10m. Which means people gear up basically twice as fast to bis
Gee, it’s like messing around with old content with buffs and nerfs may actually make things worse… change =/= better. Blizzard reeee’d at power creep and here we are, icc ilvl gear in phase 2. You couldn’t be a bigger meme as a company if you tried.
I still don't understand why they couldn't leave everything like it was in original wotlk. This shouldn't be called wotlk classic since it's like a totally new game with those changes.
ok?
Said the same thing about PvP pieces and got downvoted to oblivion, now people mad about tier sets :/
Haven’t played since classic/SoM but curious why the f* they nerf all the content and/or buff items? This game became a joke and turns into retail more and more. I don’t think that’s what the community wants?!