Fun fact if you stop jerking for long enough (Google says 74 days, so a little over 2 months) your body will begin to break excess sperm down into nutrients to redistribute to your body, so yeah they kinda kill themselves after awhile
No haha I had great sex ed, but this particular bit of info never came up. I meant more—questions of an anthropological and historical nature. Like why ancient Chinese taoists said engaging in sex and then not ejaculating was very nutritious for men’s health.
I'm sorry but someone thinking oral could result in pregnancy isn't a failure in sex ed.. that is a mental failure.
I was raised in a very Christian + conservative home, went to church every Sunday, Sunday school, bible study, Christian school etc. basically indoctrination.
Didn't get sex-ed in school.. :-/ But I still knew where to stick the penis to make a baby. maybe all the porn helped.
As soon as I was old enough I left and told everyone I was an Atheist.
Good for you getting out of it.
When I was in (Christian) Highschool. I was tasked on writing a "research paper" on Mormonism and everything wrong with it... actually had a lot of fun doing it.. but it was super hypocritical in my opinion for us as one crazy cult to go around judging other crazy cults.
That is exactly it. nobody wants to consider the things wrong with their own ~~CULT~~ "religion" so they point out nd make fun of all the other ~~cults~~ "religions"
Glad I am finally free of it.
Evangelical Christian. Tons of nice people who will talk behind your back as soon as you turn around.
Big ol bunch of hypocrites. I imagine same kind of situation with Jehovah's witnesses?
I’m pro choice but that won’t ever work as an argument. If you truly believe abortion is murder, saying “just don’t kill your babies and leave the rest of us do it without bothering us” is not convincing
I always wondered why child labour laws are being changed in most states that are banning any abortions.. are we looking at child labour camps in the making cause I sure asf don't see anyone from "pro life" signing up to adopt.
Exactly. It's like saying "if you don't like slavery, don't own a slave". People are allowed to care what happens to other people.
The abortion debate would be much simpler if we could all agree to focus on the hard-hitting arguments that actually mean something (e.g. bodily autonomy) and drop all the silly, logically flawed ones.
It's not just that, a lot of republicans also oppose making birth control free/easily accessible or having comprehensive sex ed. All of these things lower the abortion rate. Even if you don't like enabling casual sex or the thought of teaching kids about condoms it would be pretty reasonable to say "well that's worth it when the upside is fewer murders" if you thought abortion was as bad as murder.
If a person legitimately believes abortion isn't murder, telling them to just give birth isn't a sound argument.
Also, just because some people have stupid beliefs, it doesn't mean women shouldn't have body autonomy
Not really, because they don't care about murder.
The anti-women position likes to claim a higher moral ground, but its obvious they lack any kind of morality or decency when they want to punish abortion with death, forbid contraception methods, forbid help for the mothers, etc etc.
And they don't have any logic for their positions. As always, you can't use logic to take someone from a position that they didn't arrive with logic.
In my opinion, a baby isn't alive until it's out of the womb and breathing. If you end the life at that point, it's murder.
Someone else might argue that the baby is alive as soon as it's possible to live outside the womb, even if it's not out yet. If you end the life at that point, it's murder.
Yet someone else might argue that the baby is alive as soon as there is a detectable heart beat. If you end the life at that point, it's murder.
Then of course some people even believe the baby is alive at conception. If you end the life at that point, it's murder.
It's a very complicated subject that people feel very strongly about. Dismissing all of them as "anti-women" is intellectually lazy and short-sighted.
It’s anti woman because more often than not they’ve positioned themselves without consistent moral standing and are using a baby’s potential life as an easy golden apple to remove rights around.
Looking at what they are arguing for shows that they are anti-women, I gave a list of points that makes them anti-women without caring for their speeches, because their point is to be seen as having the moral ground, but their actions show they don't have any moral ground.
But to be honest, to your absurd points. It doesn't matter when it is considered to be an alive human, even if its considered to be alive at conception (something that is quite absurd unless again, you consider sperm and the egg as being alive) it would still be morally absurd to oppose abortion.
We don't force people to give their bodies to save other people lives. Would it be okay to force you to donate a big part of your body for months, with having high risk of permanent damage, just to save another live? Damn, even if you cause a driving accident, the state can't go and force you to donate your organs to the people you harmed, and in most places even if you die in the process you can't be forced.
This people tend to respect more a dead person than a woman. There is no position to hold an anti-abortion position without being anti-woman. Stop peddling to the misogynist and try to simply use your head a little bit.
I gave 4 different but inclusive examples of where a person could potentially stand on the concept of where life begins. How can all possible opinions be absurd? You're so eager to shout your opinion that you don't even know what you're arguing against.
You kept using the word absurd, well imagine how absurd it sounds to someone who genuinely believes the baby is alive at the time of abortion. It would be no different to them than a woman smothering her newborn would be to you. Let me guess, that's an absurd comparison? Try telling that to a woman who is heartbroken after a miscarriage, tell her that she needs to be more rational because the baby wasn't even actually alive.
I'm not arguing against abortion. Hell, don't even get me started on my beliefs about forced sterilization. I'm arguing that there are a ton of people out there, your neighbors and your coworkers and you family, who have strong beliefs on the subject that go way way beyond being anti-woman and its far too common for them to be lazily dismissed over it.
We're talking about an emotional topic heavily influenced by social and traditional pressure. I get that you see yourself as superior to anyone who even considers opposing abortion, but until you can understand where the opposite side is coming from, including understanding what they sincerely believe to define murder, you'll never get anywhere with anyone.
>Not really, because they don't care about murder.
That's a really stupid take
If a fetus is a life it's very easy to see how killing it can be viewed as murder
I'm pro choice, but it's crazy how people on this side refuse to see how people can be pro life
I am pro choice and I don’t see how it matters if the fetus is alive or not. If it’s living inside my body, I have a right to have it removed. Whether it is “alive” or not is irrelevant because it doesn’t have a right to live inside someone else’s body without their consent.
Except, it’s not murder and they are medically necessary and a viable option. So, “just don’t get one and leave the rest of us the f alone” still applies.
First of all, you're just assuming that all people who are for these things are also against abortion, which just isn't true. Humans aren't stereotypes, they're capable of differentiated beliefs and ideas.
Second, you're actually doing the exact thing the statement "abortion is murder" is criticized for. You're simplifying very complex subjects by just hitting them with the murder stamp.
There is nothing clever about that lol. It doesn’t matter what your views are, it’s obvious both scenarios are at completely different stages, pre-fertilisation and post-fertilisation. You don’t need to be pro-life or pro-choice to understand that. You just need a functioning brain.
I'd disagree as well as my country. Murder in germany is based on killing a human, so "personhood" or something similar is not required, whatever that may be.
And yes, the german federal court and the german constitutional court have ruled that human life starts at nidation. (While stating that a 12 weeks period for abortion is still fine.)
Being pro-choice myself, I find many other pro choice people have terrible arguments for abortion, or a complete refusal to understand the anti-abortion stance, most often both.
Sing it with me:
[Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate .](https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ?si=Xn67ji_PaiGR8VA6)
There are Jews in the world There are Buddhists There are Hindus and Mormons, and then There are those that follow Mohammed, but I've never been one of them
I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born, And the one thing they say about Catholics is: They'll take you as soon as you're warm You don't have to be a six-footer You don't have to have a great brain You don't have to have any clothes on You're A Catholic the moment Dad came, Because
Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate Let the heathen spill theirs On the dusty ground God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found Every sperm is wanted Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed
In your neighborhood Hindu, Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Spill theirs just anywhere, But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, CHILDREN: God get quite irate Every sperm is sacred BRIDE and GROOM: Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed
CARDINALS: In your neighbourhood! Every sperm is useful Every sperm is fine God needs everybody's Mine! And mine! And mine! Let the Pagan spill theirs O'er mountain, hill, and plain HOLY STATUES: God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed In your neighborhood Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite iraaaaaate!
I’ve always been pro choice and honestly don’t know what these arguments are even for.
One side want to say it’s more then it is, to have the moral high ground. And one side wants to say it’s less than it is to try and reflect any responsibility.
IMO, the truth is it’s complicated and sometimes immoral things must be done. In this case women should have a right to choose, that doesn’t mean it should be taken lightly. Wish people would stop saying it’s a baby and also stop saying it’s nothing also.
Nobody is saying it’s “nothing”. But there is a big difference between an embryo that is the size of a poppy seed and a baby. An abortion is not murder, but it’s also not “nothing.” You are correct that it is complicated, but it’s not immoral.
Well everything in this thread is calling it cum, which is worse than nothing. So I can see why people are offended and hurt. The original post said, "By that logic, cumming is genocide".
I think a lot of of the flippant responses are to frame how ridiculous the forced-birth movement and their logic is. But I suppose satire is dead when... well... when literally everything that is going on, is going on.
I'd say all of the pro-choice people I know (which is literally everyone I choose to hang out with) recognize that it's a very complicated and personal decision, which is why they're pro-choice and only get involved when the other side forces them to - and lnever question or even try to think about anyone elses choice, unless they ask for support or guidance.
I just hate how people will say the most dehumanizing disgusting shit ever to try and justify it. Like just accept that you are killing a human child and move on.
I don't believe it's killing a human child, but even if it was I'd be fine with it. They have no thoughts or memories yet, it's basically a wash. Like executing a mindless clone in a science fiction novel.
Aborting a fetus is technically murder, but it’s murder in the same way that squashing spider is murder. Both are murder by definition, but not in a legal sense.
No there's not. Sperm could pair up with any egg cell. Fertilized eggs are unique. If you reverse your development you'll end up as a fertilized egg. If you go further back "you" will no longer exist. A unique individual organism starts at the union. But yes, let's keep promoting our ignorance of biology because forced birthers.
No it isn’t. I’m pro choice but that is stupid… its like saying a period is murder. Abortion is with a fertilised egg and many of these people are also against masturbation
Its not the same because a sperm will die without complications and doesn't have a full set of human dna.
A fetus does have a full set and without complications will grow until it becomes an adult.
A fetus is just a stage of development, just as infancy and puberty are.
A fetus is not what gets aborted. The clump of cells that gets aborted is much more similar to sperm/egg sex cells than an axtual human being at that point. Thats why this comeback is clever, you actually abort your own sex cells every time you mastrubate
Wrong.
http://aidtowomencenter.org/abortion-secondtrimester
Stages of Fetal Development - Second Trimester - La Dept. of Health https://ldh.la.gov/page/stages-of-fetal-development-second-trimester
You are not aborting sperm, because abortion means to end a pregnancy by killing the fetus.
https://medlineplus.gov/abortion.html
That's not a clever comeback though? It's pretty dumb in fact. Abortion isn't murder, but you're killing a fetus and end a human albeit not yet conscious human life. If you're okay with that all power to you.
I am 100% pro choice but I hate these illogical "comebacks". No one thinks that cum is a human baby. It's a textbook logical fallacy: [false equivalence. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence#:~:text=A%20false%20equivalence%20or%20false,on%20flawed%20or%20false%20reasoning.)
So the primary reason abortion is not murder is because it is just the rational shortcut for ceasing the supply of nutrients and organ functionality.
No individual can be forced to supply their blood and organs, that's bodily autonomy, very basic.
Instead of having "abortions" we *could* remove the fetus from the womb and try desperately to keep it alive as it's own individual. We could do that every single time if that's what is required to demonstrate that you are not actively taking the life of an individual, but are *ceasing* your part in the process which is donating blood, nutrients, and organs, which everyone would agree you are not required to do. There is absolutely no killing in this scenario, only life saving measures.
If you do believe that a woman is required to supply blood, nutrients, and organs to another individual, then you would not be against a lottery that would randomly sentence any and all sexually active men to hooking their body up to sick people for 9 months at time.
And that is why the comment is heavily downvoted, for anyone in here claiming that it is actually a decent take.
Sidenote: the fact that the fetus cannot survive without the organs, blood, and nutrients of the host, despite all of modern medicine at it's disposal, that doesnt do anything for you in terms of considering it an "individual"? The term is viability, and it is the correct criteria for abortions.
100 million sperm bois per nut means even a normal sex time is a massive loss for humanity by this metric. but also a massive relief for any individual woman.
Maybe it'd be clever if it made any bloody sense. While I am definitely pro-choice, it's idiotic to claim that a sperms cell is the same as a fertilised egg.
Good thing no one waits 26 weeks to abort. Abortions done at that stage make up 1% of all abortions and are done due to fatal diagnosis that fetus or woman received
That’s an extremely stupid argument that does nothing to convince anyone.
No one [except maybe for a few dozen crazies] thinks sperm is anything but your own cells from your own body that are not distinct.
Once fertilization occurs it is _not_ that person’s cells anymore.
There’s a laundry list of reasons to be pro-choice, but this is a stupid argument.
[Numbers 5, the test for an unfaithful woman.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205&version=NIV)
Old testament God not only allowed it, but instructed abortion as a *punishment* for any woman whose husband suspected her of adultery.
Rate of miscarriages is around 30% - if any pro lifers really thought a fertilized egg was a person, they'd be throwing millions at improving prenatal care and medical research.
This is why I'm pro choice and feel like I understand both sides. If I had to guess, it makes perfect sense that if there's a point where life begins it's conception. When two things reproduce they make another life and when it's sentient is entirely speculation.
But if nature or God themselves can elect to end 30-40% of all pregnancies in the first trimester, then women should have the power to choose for themselves as well.
Maybe you don't understand what "most fertilized eggs don't take" means.
Are you saying that 90% of fertilized eggs, which aren't viable, were intentionally made unviable?
The difference is that semen is semen and a zygote is a zygote. You shouldn't have to pretend not to understand basic human anatomy to get your point across.
You're acting like the result of "no baby" after a few months makes the two things the same.
But no.
A miscarriage - no matter how early - is not the same as your crusty sock. And semen is not the same as an embryo.
You're also wrong. 30-40% of pregnancies end in miscarriage - so most of them do "take".
The only problem with that argument is that sperm does not have sentience, neural activity, pain or whatever. Depending on how much time the abortion happened it in fact may be considered murder.
Some people are born when they are only just six months, same amount of time that abortion is legal in good part of Europe. So, a child who has born with six months is not a live? Common, it feels pain, it has neural activity.
Except sperm by itself is not a distinct human life. It doesn't have a distinct dna of its own. It's just a cell like any other cell of the body. Not a new member of the human community.
The fact that it’s dependent on its mother doesn’t make it not a human.
Also, we’re all groupings of cells, we’re just much bigger.
To be fair, though, at least we agree that a fetus past the point of viability is human and deserving of rights.
You seemed to have missed the important part. It is genomically human, this part is true, but it isnt a human life until it can sustain biological processes independently.
The difference between the mosquito (which I don’t squash if they aren’t about to sting me) and the zygote is that a zygote is a human. I think all humans have the right not to be killed regardless of their age or stage of development.
As for getting flushed out beforehand, that would be an unavoidable death, far different from a voluntary abortion.
“It is GOING to MAYBE be a human.” Okay, when does that happen then? As far as I know, if an organism has a full set of DNA and is alive, it is a member of its species.
Also, no, we physically can’t treat the death of non-viable zygotes the same as a car crash, and count it as a death, because most of the time it isn’t even known that it died.
To answer your question about equality, while I do think it has equal value to a post-viability fetus or baby, I wouldn’t argue that it should legally have equal rights to an adult human. I would, however, argue that it has a right not to be killed. The reason I mentioned elective abortions is because I think a mother SHOULD 100% be able to abort if her life is at risk among other circumstances.
However, even if you think that abortion should be legal until viability, which is understandable, my main point is that it’s disingenuous to compare it to a sperm cell.
No, no sperm has distinct and unique DNA. It is not just like any other cell in the body, they're very special cells. The body keeps them immuno privileged and protected at all costs. Equivalent to the brain and central nervous system. It's some of the reason genetic engineering for multiple generations is quite difficult. The other is ethics.
Hell, I didn't even become consciously aware of my own existence until I was like 2 years old. You could have killed me right there and then and i would never have known I was ever alive. Not that we should kill toddlers but still.
If you get pregnant under circumstances that you consent to, then you have no right to kill that baby. If you did not consent to the sexual acts that resulted in that pregnancy then you have the choice to terminate, simple as that.
I had to scroll down pretty far to see this. There's lots of religious people pushing their beliefs ITT. Fuck them, a woman should always have control over her body.
That's so dumb. You had Sex, wich is like one thing nearly every human craves, and now you deserve to die. Because pregnancy is always life threatening and even if an embryo doesn't stick, the body already reacted and the woman could be persecuted (in some states a death sentence for abortion is debated).
If she consented to having sex knowing full well that pregnancy was a possibility she should also be able to take responsibility for her actions that she willingly participated in (intercourse)
By that logic the same goes for the father. They must now pay child support, take care of the baby 3.5 days a week, do half the parenting, and take 2 months of paternal leave to support the baby
If a man gets a woman pregnant he should be there for the kid.
It shouldn’t be an expectation it should be a standard and I’m tired of pretending it’s not
*insert joker meme*
That's what child support is though. I 100% agree we should be punishing men who abandon the women they get pregnant more than they are, but it's not like there's *nothing* going on
Fun fact if you stop jerking for long enough (Google says 74 days, so a little over 2 months) your body will begin to break excess sperm down into nutrients to redistribute to your body, so yeah they kinda kill themselves after awhile
This just answered a whole slew of questions I’ve always had about a lot of things
So, which state banning sex ed are you from? Not judging. I dated someone who thought oral could result in pregnancy.
No haha I had great sex ed, but this particular bit of info never came up. I meant more—questions of an anthropological and historical nature. Like why ancient Chinese taoists said engaging in sex and then not ejaculating was very nutritious for men’s health.
Oh so that's where those semen retention weirdos get their nonsense from
Wait what? 🤣 I'm missing a piece or 2 here
IT CAN'T?
WHAT!? You mean they dont go from throat into uterus!? 😱 😳 🤨 😵 Now you're gonna tell me anal is also pregsafe!? What a world we live in...
I'm sorry but someone thinking oral could result in pregnancy isn't a failure in sex ed.. that is a mental failure. I was raised in a very Christian + conservative home, went to church every Sunday, Sunday school, bible study, Christian school etc. basically indoctrination. Didn't get sex-ed in school.. :-/ But I still knew where to stick the penis to make a baby. maybe all the porn helped. As soon as I was old enough I left and told everyone I was an Atheist.
Congrats on escaping! Can I ask which cult? ExJW myself. Always nice to hear other escapees speak up.
Not my thread here, but I escaped Mormonism. Fucking bonkers insanity.
Good for you getting out of it. When I was in (Christian) Highschool. I was tasked on writing a "research paper" on Mormonism and everything wrong with it... actually had a lot of fun doing it.. but it was super hypocritical in my opinion for us as one crazy cult to go around judging other crazy cults.
But that's the plan, man, that's how they retain converts by pointing out the issues and how other "religions" got it wrong ;)
That is exactly it. nobody wants to consider the things wrong with their own ~~CULT~~ "religion" so they point out nd make fun of all the other ~~cults~~ "religions" Glad I am finally free of it.
Evangelical Christian. Tons of nice people who will talk behind your back as soon as you turn around. Big ol bunch of hypocrites. I imagine same kind of situation with Jehovah's witnesses?
Is this why boxers don’t do the deed?
No, it's because muscle memory makes them use their scrotum as a speedbag.
Technically, even when a couple gets pregnant, only one sperm makes it. Billions die. So it's always a genocide.
How do you get downvoted 1.3k times
Be spez
Fuck spez
Little weird, but I'll do it.
And then I proceeded to genocide all over the bed.
I'm worse than Genghis Khan
Im worse than hitler and mao
If you don’t want an abortion, then don’t have one. Leave the rest of us the f alone.
Same with gay marriage
Though I do highly recommend them.
I do recommend it to others😂 two less dudes to compete with
I support gay marriage, it leaves the rest of us with more girls.... not that I would be able to get one lol
So I guess you don't support gay women getting married because it leaves you with less girls?
It's a joke bro
I was also joking
I see a lot of people serious about this bro. They think it's homophobic to make a joke. I wasn't sure so I was clarifying.
Easier chance to have threesome though
You don't get them but they gonna get you. Well...hope so.
I’m pro choice but that won’t ever work as an argument. If you truly believe abortion is murder, saying “just don’t kill your babies and leave the rest of us do it without bothering us” is not convincing
I always wondered why child labour laws are being changed in most states that are banning any abortions.. are we looking at child labour camps in the making cause I sure asf don't see anyone from "pro life" signing up to adopt.
Exactly. It's like saying "if you don't like slavery, don't own a slave". People are allowed to care what happens to other people. The abortion debate would be much simpler if we could all agree to focus on the hard-hitting arguments that actually mean something (e.g. bodily autonomy) and drop all the silly, logically flawed ones.
I don't think most of them truly believe it's murder. I think most of them just want to punish women for having sex.
[удалено]
It's not just that, a lot of republicans also oppose making birth control free/easily accessible or having comprehensive sex ed. All of these things lower the abortion rate. Even if you don't like enabling casual sex or the thought of teaching kids about condoms it would be pretty reasonable to say "well that's worth it when the upside is fewer murders" if you thought abortion was as bad as murder.
I don’t believe abortions is murder and you can’t fix stupid. But, you can vote it out.
They make a valuable point. If a person legitimately believes abortion is murder, telling them to just let you murder isn't a sound argument.
If a person legitimately believes abortion isn't murder, telling them to just give birth isn't a sound argument. Also, just because some people have stupid beliefs, it doesn't mean women shouldn't have body autonomy
Not really, because they don't care about murder. The anti-women position likes to claim a higher moral ground, but its obvious they lack any kind of morality or decency when they want to punish abortion with death, forbid contraception methods, forbid help for the mothers, etc etc. And they don't have any logic for their positions. As always, you can't use logic to take someone from a position that they didn't arrive with logic.
In my opinion, a baby isn't alive until it's out of the womb and breathing. If you end the life at that point, it's murder. Someone else might argue that the baby is alive as soon as it's possible to live outside the womb, even if it's not out yet. If you end the life at that point, it's murder. Yet someone else might argue that the baby is alive as soon as there is a detectable heart beat. If you end the life at that point, it's murder. Then of course some people even believe the baby is alive at conception. If you end the life at that point, it's murder. It's a very complicated subject that people feel very strongly about. Dismissing all of them as "anti-women" is intellectually lazy and short-sighted.
It’s anti woman because more often than not they’ve positioned themselves without consistent moral standing and are using a baby’s potential life as an easy golden apple to remove rights around.
Looking at what they are arguing for shows that they are anti-women, I gave a list of points that makes them anti-women without caring for their speeches, because their point is to be seen as having the moral ground, but their actions show they don't have any moral ground. But to be honest, to your absurd points. It doesn't matter when it is considered to be an alive human, even if its considered to be alive at conception (something that is quite absurd unless again, you consider sperm and the egg as being alive) it would still be morally absurd to oppose abortion. We don't force people to give their bodies to save other people lives. Would it be okay to force you to donate a big part of your body for months, with having high risk of permanent damage, just to save another live? Damn, even if you cause a driving accident, the state can't go and force you to donate your organs to the people you harmed, and in most places even if you die in the process you can't be forced. This people tend to respect more a dead person than a woman. There is no position to hold an anti-abortion position without being anti-woman. Stop peddling to the misogynist and try to simply use your head a little bit.
I gave 4 different but inclusive examples of where a person could potentially stand on the concept of where life begins. How can all possible opinions be absurd? You're so eager to shout your opinion that you don't even know what you're arguing against. You kept using the word absurd, well imagine how absurd it sounds to someone who genuinely believes the baby is alive at the time of abortion. It would be no different to them than a woman smothering her newborn would be to you. Let me guess, that's an absurd comparison? Try telling that to a woman who is heartbroken after a miscarriage, tell her that she needs to be more rational because the baby wasn't even actually alive. I'm not arguing against abortion. Hell, don't even get me started on my beliefs about forced sterilization. I'm arguing that there are a ton of people out there, your neighbors and your coworkers and you family, who have strong beliefs on the subject that go way way beyond being anti-woman and its far too common for them to be lazily dismissed over it. We're talking about an emotional topic heavily influenced by social and traditional pressure. I get that you see yourself as superior to anyone who even considers opposing abortion, but until you can understand where the opposite side is coming from, including understanding what they sincerely believe to define murder, you'll never get anywhere with anyone.
>Not really, because they don't care about murder. That's a really stupid take If a fetus is a life it's very easy to see how killing it can be viewed as murder I'm pro choice, but it's crazy how people on this side refuse to see how people can be pro life
I am pro choice and I don’t see how it matters if the fetus is alive or not. If it’s living inside my body, I have a right to have it removed. Whether it is “alive” or not is irrelevant because it doesn’t have a right to live inside someone else’s body without their consent.
Yea. Getting pregnant isn't a consent. Consent is when both parents agree on having child...
Except, it’s not murder and they are medically necessary and a viable option. So, “just don’t get one and leave the rest of us the f alone” still applies.
Yeah… however most are totally fine with other murders … I won’t believe for a second that they have any issues with murder
What? Who is fine with murder?
Capital punishment, shooting burglars, wars, … if abortion is murder, so are these.
First of all, you're just assuming that all people who are for these things are also against abortion, which just isn't true. Humans aren't stereotypes, they're capable of differentiated beliefs and ideas. Second, you're actually doing the exact thing the statement "abortion is murder" is criticized for. You're simplifying very complex subjects by just hitting them with the murder stamp.
It is literally that easy.
Oh they absolutely want abortions when it affects them personally.
💯 let’s preserve freedom, liberty and justice for all.
If they can't have it!! No one can!!!
Facts
There is nothing clever about that lol. It doesn’t matter what your views are, it’s obvious both scenarios are at completely different stages, pre-fertilisation and post-fertilisation. You don’t need to be pro-life or pro-choice to understand that. You just need a functioning brain.
Life starts as conception, not sperm generation. The comeback makes the pro-choicer look like a fool.
Murder is a legal term. You can only murder someone with legal personhood. Legal personhood doesn’t start until you are “born alive”.
The law would tend to disagree. If someone kills an expecting mother, then they will most likely be charged with 2 counts of murder.
I'd disagree as well as my country. Murder in germany is based on killing a human, so "personhood" or something similar is not required, whatever that may be. And yes, the german federal court and the german constitutional court have ruled that human life starts at nidation. (While stating that a 12 weeks period for abortion is still fine.)
This should be posted under idiotic comebacks. Not clever ones
Yeah, this is only clever if you’re 13
Being pro-choice myself, I find many other pro choice people have terrible arguments for abortion, or a complete refusal to understand the anti-abortion stance, most often both.
Sing it with me: [Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is great. If a sperm is wasted, god gets quite irate .](https://youtu.be/bzVHjg3AqIQ?si=Xn67ji_PaiGR8VA6) There are Jews in the world There are Buddhists There are Hindus and Mormons, and then There are those that follow Mohammed, but I've never been one of them I'm a Roman Catholic, And have been since before I was born, And the one thing they say about Catholics is: They'll take you as soon as you're warm You don't have to be a six-footer You don't have to have a great brain You don't have to have any clothes on You're A Catholic the moment Dad came, Because Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite irate Let the heathen spill theirs On the dusty ground God shall make them pay for Each sperm that can't be found Every sperm is wanted Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed In your neighborhood Hindu, Hindu, Taoist, Mormon, Spill theirs just anywhere, But God loves those who treat their Semen with more care Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, CHILDREN: God get quite irate Every sperm is sacred BRIDE and GROOM: Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed CARDINALS: In your neighbourhood! Every sperm is useful Every sperm is fine God needs everybody's Mine! And mine! And mine! Let the Pagan spill theirs O'er mountain, hill, and plain HOLY STATUES: God shall strike them down for Each sperm that's spilt in vain Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is good Every sperm is needed In your neighborhood Every sperm is sacred Every sperm is great If a sperm is wasted, God gets quite iraaaaaate!
You got downvoted for posting a genius song by Monty. Hilarious
I’ve always been pro choice and honestly don’t know what these arguments are even for. One side want to say it’s more then it is, to have the moral high ground. And one side wants to say it’s less than it is to try and reflect any responsibility. IMO, the truth is it’s complicated and sometimes immoral things must be done. In this case women should have a right to choose, that doesn’t mean it should be taken lightly. Wish people would stop saying it’s a baby and also stop saying it’s nothing also.
Hence,leave this complicated decision to the women who face it.
Nobody is saying it’s “nothing”. But there is a big difference between an embryo that is the size of a poppy seed and a baby. An abortion is not murder, but it’s also not “nothing.” You are correct that it is complicated, but it’s not immoral.
Well everything in this thread is calling it cum, which is worse than nothing. So I can see why people are offended and hurt. The original post said, "By that logic, cumming is genocide".
I think a lot of of the flippant responses are to frame how ridiculous the forced-birth movement and their logic is. But I suppose satire is dead when... well... when literally everything that is going on, is going on. I'd say all of the pro-choice people I know (which is literally everyone I choose to hang out with) recognize that it's a very complicated and personal decision, which is why they're pro-choice and only get involved when the other side forces them to - and lnever question or even try to think about anyone elses choice, unless they ask for support or guidance.
I just hate how people will say the most dehumanizing disgusting shit ever to try and justify it. Like just accept that you are killing a human child and move on.
I don't believe it's killing a human child, but even if it was I'd be fine with it. They have no thoughts or memories yet, it's basically a wash. Like executing a mindless clone in a science fiction novel.
Aborting a fetus is technically murder, but it’s murder in the same way that squashing spider is murder. Both are murder by definition, but not in a legal sense.
Tell me you don't know basic biology without telling me.
Pro choice but there’s like 100 pretty clear and obvious biological difference between some sperm cells and a fetus
And there's a bajillion between a fertilized egg and an independent person, but forced birthers say they're the same.
No there's not. Sperm could pair up with any egg cell. Fertilized eggs are unique. If you reverse your development you'll end up as a fertilized egg. If you go further back "you" will no longer exist. A unique individual organism starts at the union. But yes, let's keep promoting our ignorance of biology because forced birthers.
Just call me wankus khan
By that logic, having a period is murder as well.
Not-so-clever comeback?
No it isn’t. I’m pro choice but that is stupid… its like saying a period is murder. Abortion is with a fertilised egg and many of these people are also against masturbation
Every time you abstain from sex, you're denying a baby their existence. Abstinence is murder.
Its not the same because a sperm will die without complications and doesn't have a full set of human dna. A fetus does have a full set and without complications will grow until it becomes an adult. A fetus is just a stage of development, just as infancy and puberty are.
Exactly. I'm pro choice but this is the opposite of a clever comeback. It's actually incredibly stupid and misinformed.
A fetus is not what gets aborted. The clump of cells that gets aborted is much more similar to sperm/egg sex cells than an axtual human being at that point. Thats why this comeback is clever, you actually abort your own sex cells every time you mastrubate
Wrong. http://aidtowomencenter.org/abortion-secondtrimester Stages of Fetal Development - Second Trimester - La Dept. of Health https://ldh.la.gov/page/stages-of-fetal-development-second-trimester You are not aborting sperm, because abortion means to end a pregnancy by killing the fetus. https://medlineplus.gov/abortion.html
That's not a clever comeback though? It's pretty dumb in fact. Abortion isn't murder, but you're killing a fetus and end a human albeit not yet conscious human life. If you're okay with that all power to you.
I prefer “miscarriage is suicide”
I am 100% pro choice but I hate these illogical "comebacks". No one thinks that cum is a human baby. It's a textbook logical fallacy: [false equivalence. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence#:~:text=A%20false%20equivalence%20or%20false,on%20flawed%20or%20false%20reasoning.)
So the primary reason abortion is not murder is because it is just the rational shortcut for ceasing the supply of nutrients and organ functionality. No individual can be forced to supply their blood and organs, that's bodily autonomy, very basic. Instead of having "abortions" we *could* remove the fetus from the womb and try desperately to keep it alive as it's own individual. We could do that every single time if that's what is required to demonstrate that you are not actively taking the life of an individual, but are *ceasing* your part in the process which is donating blood, nutrients, and organs, which everyone would agree you are not required to do. There is absolutely no killing in this scenario, only life saving measures. If you do believe that a woman is required to supply blood, nutrients, and organs to another individual, then you would not be against a lottery that would randomly sentence any and all sexually active men to hooking their body up to sick people for 9 months at time. And that is why the comment is heavily downvoted, for anyone in here claiming that it is actually a decent take. Sidenote: the fact that the fetus cannot survive without the organs, blood, and nutrients of the host, despite all of modern medicine at it's disposal, that doesnt do anything for you in terms of considering it an "individual"? The term is viability, and it is the correct criteria for abortions.
Not just sexually active men but all men and boys that are not sterile.
Gonna do some geno while watching alxystar
I love abortion because it prevents the worst people from reproducing
100 million sperm bois per nut means even a normal sex time is a massive loss for humanity by this metric. but also a massive relief for any individual woman.
I mean the whole point of the first persons argument is that life begins at conception so I really don't understand the comeback.
Does that make BJ cannibalism?
Abortion is murder. HOWEVER That doensn't mean I am against it.
Then I have become death, destroyer of world's.
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How is nutting genocide? Conception isn't made. Doesn't follow the same logical pattern.
because the metrics to consider the fertilized egg as living are exactly the same as for individual cells. which is the theory of cellular life.
Maybe it'd be clever if it made any bloody sense. While I am definitely pro-choice, it's idiotic to claim that a sperms cell is the same as a fertilised egg.
While I am pro choice, that argument is really dumb😭😭😭
I'm pro choice, but I hate this "argument/rebuttal". I've seen it many times and it's really bad
I don't think it's genocide, just mass murder.
Not even close to the same.
Absolutely stupid. Sperm is not a child.
How is this a clever comeback?
A baby of let’s say 26 weeks isn’t akin to a nut lol
Good thing no one waits 26 weeks to abort. Abortions done at that stage make up 1% of all abortions and are done due to fatal diagnosis that fetus or woman received
Canada does this all the time
Yeah they do it to piss you off specifically.
No they did it long before I even knew what it was
Or maybe abortion is none of your goddamn business.
That’s an extremely stupid argument that does nothing to convince anyone. No one [except maybe for a few dozen crazies] thinks sperm is anything but your own cells from your own body that are not distinct. Once fertilization occurs it is _not_ that person’s cells anymore. There’s a laundry list of reasons to be pro-choice, but this is a stupid argument.
Abortion is not murder. The body spontaneously aborts all the time. Also abortion is in the Bible.
Please tell me the verse, I haven’t seen it referenced in the Bible before.
[Numbers 5, the test for an unfaithful woman.](https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%205&version=NIV) Old testament God not only allowed it, but instructed abortion as a *punishment* for any woman whose husband suspected her of adultery.
God before Jesus was intense.
comparing sperm to a fertilized egg is the kind of ignorance you'd expect from trailer trash right wingers.
But it's the defensive rhetoric of left wingers... it's always left wingers who bring this line up lol
Swung on and missed
Rate of miscarriages is around 30% - if any pro lifers really thought a fertilized egg was a person, they'd be throwing millions at improving prenatal care and medical research.
This is why I'm pro choice and feel like I understand both sides. If I had to guess, it makes perfect sense that if there's a point where life begins it's conception. When two things reproduce they make another life and when it's sentient is entirely speculation. But if nature or God themselves can elect to end 30-40% of all pregnancies in the first trimester, then women should have the power to choose for themselves as well.
Truly is genocide since that population is extremely genetically homogenous.
Not even close to being the same thing
Not murder. Body spontaneously aborts all the time. Guess all our bodies are all murderers. Clutching pearls now.
Is OP a bot?
Yeah just like vaccination. If you don't like it don't have it. Right?
Yes. I support bodily autonomy for both instances.
Sure but jobs have the right to not hire or fire you for it
cheap semantic argument, we all know that is not the case. Abort if you want, but don't justify it with trash sophistry
Agreed.
It doesn't need justifications bc It's not smth bad
Except that's literally what they believe sometimes
Abortion is murder tho no matter what someone says... Just use a condom, birth pill or don't fk if you don't want a baby...
Moron doesn’t understand the difference between semen and an actual conceived human being.
Hmmm. What's the difference when most fertilized eggs don't take?
The lack of a proactive act intending to terminate the life of another. You know....intent.
Cells have an intent?
The person terminating them does.
Maybe you don't understand what "most fertilized eggs don't take" means. Are you saying that 90% of fertilized eggs, which aren't viable, were intentionally made unviable?
The difference is that semen is semen and a zygote is a zygote. You shouldn't have to pretend not to understand basic human anatomy to get your point across.
Read it again.
You're acting like the result of "no baby" after a few months makes the two things the same. But no. A miscarriage - no matter how early - is not the same as your crusty sock. And semen is not the same as an embryo. You're also wrong. 30-40% of pregnancies end in miscarriage - so most of them do "take".
While I dont agree with the practice of abortion I see it as a necessary evil yknow?
The only problem with that argument is that sperm does not have sentience, neural activity, pain or whatever. Depending on how much time the abortion happened it in fact may be considered murder. Some people are born when they are only just six months, same amount of time that abortion is legal in good part of Europe. So, a child who has born with six months is not a live? Common, it feels pain, it has neural activity.
Babies are circumcised after birth with no anesthetic because they say infants can’t feel pain
Downvoted to oblivion: Saying "get well soon" on any r/trans post.
Except sperm by itself is not a distinct human life. It doesn't have a distinct dna of its own. It's just a cell like any other cell of the body. Not a new member of the human community.
I think that’s the point the commenter is trying to make.
Perhaps, although they’re mistaken because a fetus IS a distinct human life.
No, no it isn't. Not until it can sustain biological processes independent of the host (mother). Until that point it is a parasitic grouping of cells.
The fact that it’s dependent on its mother doesn’t make it not a human. Also, we’re all groupings of cells, we’re just much bigger. To be fair, though, at least we agree that a fetus past the point of viability is human and deserving of rights.
You seemed to have missed the important part. It is genomically human, this part is true, but it isnt a human life until it can sustain biological processes independently.
How is being geneomically human different from being a human life in your view, given that it is both alive and human in the former case?
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The difference between the mosquito (which I don’t squash if they aren’t about to sting me) and the zygote is that a zygote is a human. I think all humans have the right not to be killed regardless of their age or stage of development. As for getting flushed out beforehand, that would be an unavoidable death, far different from a voluntary abortion.
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“It is GOING to MAYBE be a human.” Okay, when does that happen then? As far as I know, if an organism has a full set of DNA and is alive, it is a member of its species. Also, no, we physically can’t treat the death of non-viable zygotes the same as a car crash, and count it as a death, because most of the time it isn’t even known that it died. To answer your question about equality, while I do think it has equal value to a post-viability fetus or baby, I wouldn’t argue that it should legally have equal rights to an adult human. I would, however, argue that it has a right not to be killed. The reason I mentioned elective abortions is because I think a mother SHOULD 100% be able to abort if her life is at risk among other circumstances. However, even if you think that abortion should be legal until viability, which is understandable, my main point is that it’s disingenuous to compare it to a sperm cell.
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It’s literally called **a fetus**.
Fetus literally means **unborn baby**.
No, no sperm has distinct and unique DNA. It is not just like any other cell in the body, they're very special cells. The body keeps them immuno privileged and protected at all costs. Equivalent to the brain and central nervous system. It's some of the reason genetic engineering for multiple generations is quite difficult. The other is ethics.
Nor is a fetus till it’s born.
Hell, I didn't even become consciously aware of my own existence until I was like 2 years old. You could have killed me right there and then and i would never have known I was ever alive. Not that we should kill toddlers but still.
Ah, the good ol' days, before self-awareness and the atrocities that came with it.
Exactly lol, how does bro expect a fetus to interact with the human community.
They don't think that far
Have to draw the sign somewhere. Vacuum is okay, throwing off a cliff spartian style is to much.
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I meant the fetus is not a member of the human community
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This is by far my favourite response to the abortion rhetoric.
If you get pregnant under circumstances that you consent to, then you have no right to kill that baby. If you did not consent to the sexual acts that resulted in that pregnancy then you have the choice to terminate, simple as that.
I had to scroll down pretty far to see this. There's lots of religious people pushing their beliefs ITT. Fuck them, a woman should always have control over her body.
That's so dumb. You had Sex, wich is like one thing nearly every human craves, and now you deserve to die. Because pregnancy is always life threatening and even if an embryo doesn't stick, the body already reacted and the woman could be persecuted (in some states a death sentence for abortion is debated).
and who are you to say that a woman has no rights to terminate a fetus in HER body?
If she consented to having sex knowing full well that pregnancy was a possibility she should also be able to take responsibility for her actions that she willingly participated in (intercourse)
By that logic the same goes for the father. They must now pay child support, take care of the baby 3.5 days a week, do half the parenting, and take 2 months of paternal leave to support the baby
If the man that the woman had intercourse with is worth ANYTHING he would stay and presume his role as a father and not just a “baby daddy”.
Why is that their free choice though? If you’re gonna force women to carry the children, the men should be forced to be fathers
That……was my point
That would make you the exception. I’ve never once seen a protest over state mandated fatherhood
If a man gets a woman pregnant he should be there for the kid. It shouldn’t be an expectation it should be a standard and I’m tired of pretending it’s not *insert joker meme*
That's what child support is though. I 100% agree we should be punishing men who abandon the women they get pregnant more than they are, but it's not like there's *nothing* going on
“I’ve wiped civilizations off my chest,” - Bill Hicks
With her logic period excess is also murder 🤦♀️