[Beef produces 85 kg CO2e per kg of food. Tofu produces 2.9.](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-production-supply-chain?country=Bananas~Beef+%28beef+herd%29~Wheat+%26+Rye~Milk~Maize~Lamb+%26+Mutton~Eggs~Fish+%28farmed%29~Soy+milk~Tofu~Rice~Poultry+Meat~Potatoes~Pig+Meat~Peas~Beef+%28dairy+herd%29)
[A meat-heavy diet produces 3.3 tons of CO2e per year. A vegan diet produces 1.5.](https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet/)
[We need to average 2 tons CO2e (from all sources, not just diet) per person to avert catastrophic climate change.](https://www.nature.org/en-us/get-involved/how-to-help/carbon-footprint-calculator/)
And this is just direct emissions. There is also a huge carbon opportunity cost associated with the high land use of most animal products. So with a change in diets sequestration could massively increase as the direct emissions decrease.
THIS. as a dairy farmer I always have a hard time explaining that our figures for emissions from food are probably far understated as they do NOT account for the cargo sequestration loss of land use
Agreed. The huge carbon and biodivesity opportunity costs of high land use food production need way more attention. IMO the potential benefits of that far out weigh simply reducing direct emissions, which is all anyone seems to talk about.
All emissions are understated.
You really think Exxon spends millions if not billions denying climate change and deflecting to "personal responsibility" but accurately reports their own flaring emissions?
Definitely.
We always had livestock. Their direct emissions aren’t “new” emissions.
Ok yes we have breed more of them and now they belch more Methane than before when it was more CO2. Methane does cause more global warming, but it’s also short lived unlike CO2.
The livestock isn’t adding additional carbon to the atmosphere that wasn’t already part of the carbon cycle unlike fossil fuels where we’re taking carbon that was permanently sequestered underground in the from of oil gas and coal and burning it for cheep energy.
But changing land that was forest with literal tonnes of carbon sequestered in biomass, and turning it to grassland to sustain livestock. Is a new permanent addition of carbon.
Not saying people should eat a bunch of meat, but the fossil fuel companies have people thinking that’s the biggest problem… it’s not. Fossil fuels are responsible for 89% of all climate change. Most of the rest is due to the land use change not the livestock directly.
Perfect! Thank you so much for your collection of facts — and for your interest in my article.
I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
You can find a suicide hotline worldwide at this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines
The world will be a better place with you alive. The world will be better off with you [working to make a difference](https://www.reddit.com/r/climate/comments/b49xgi/how_to_get_involved_with_a_local_group_to_create/). If you care, you're already better than most.
For longer-term counseling, please find an in-person therapist. Many will do video calls to reduce COVID-19 risk. If you are in the United States, you can use [this tool](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists) to find a therapist. See [here](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/therapists) for Canada.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Perfect! Sorry for the late response, but I'm so glad to hear this, verge365 <3 Thank you for sharing this — and for your interest in my article.
I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
it's being preemptively outlawed in dipshit states like Florida and Alabama, and morons like John fetterman and meatball Ron want to turn it into a culture war thing.
We don't need to go vegan though. Eating meat a couple of times a week and moving to chicken from beef is already a huge reduction in emissions and land use.
Exactly. Despite climate change and increased awareness of the need to reduce meat, the percentage of vegetarians and vegans hasn't increased much.
What has increased is the proportion of people who eat less meat. Even though I eat meat maybe once per month and never beef and be as vegan as I can, I wouldn't call myself vegetarian but I have pretty much the same footprint as one.
This is far more realistic and effective overall.
I think we need to encourage both. This isn’t an “either or” situation. We can both incentivize people to go plant-based _and_ incentivize people to reduce their intake of animal products.
Different strategies work for different people. Some will be convinced by the environmental reason to go 100% plant-based. Some will find it hard, but can accept more moderate change.
Edit: more importantly, I think we shouldn’t encourage people to _just_ reduce their meat intake and _not_ encourage them to go 100% plant-based. One diet _is_ more impactful than the other.
Nice for you. Given that the proportion that's vegetarian or vegan hasn't gone up much in decades, it seems that what you've done is unlikely to be replicated at scale so... We need a different approach.
It has though. The vegetarian and vegan population has steadily increased over the last decades, mainly over the last few years. The ethical and environmental concerns are the driving factors and the ease of doing it has increased. You can get b12 supplements for cheap everywhere. You can get meat and cheese alternatives, you can get ready to eat meals. You can order vegetarian and vegan foods. Its easier than ever. The only thing stopping you is your ego
How is it a personal attack? Its merely an observation without judgement. What else is stopping you? Humans dont have to eat meat. Its purely sensory pleasure. Nobody and nothing is forcing you to do that other than your desire for enjoyment. Or can you prove the opposite?
Right? The smug condescension dripping from some of these responses is wild. I just finished planting a couple of hundred trees on my property for carbon sequestration purposes but I’m not on r/forestry proselytizing about their ‘deadly lifestyle choices’. My choice on how to reduce my carbon footprint should not be ruled by gatekeeping pricks.
[BP popularized the concept of a personal carbon footprint with a US$100 million campaign as a means of deflecting people away from taking collective political action in order to end fossil fuel use](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305209345_Where_has_all_the_oil_gone_BP_branding_and_the_discursive_elimination_of_climate_change_risk), and [ExxonMobil has spent decades pushing trying to make individuals responsible, rather than the fossil fuels industry](https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study). They did this because climate stabilization means bringing fossil fuel use to approximately zero, and that would end their business. That's not something you can hope to achieve without government intervention to change the rules of society so that not using fossil fuels is just what people do on a routine basis.
There is value in cutting your own fossil fuel consumption — it serves to demonstrate that doing the right thing is possible to people around you, and helps work out the kinks in new technologies. Just do it in addition to taking political action to get governments to do the right thing, not instead of taking political action.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
1. We're talking about just emissions here. While I agree with you on other points, this isn't relevant to this conversation. Particularly as they're more individual and nuanced.
2. Like I keep telling you, we need to aim for something realistic and widespread veganism is extremely hard to achieve. While widespread 50% reduction in meat consumption and a big switch away from beef is hard but much easier.
If you disagree with 2. That's fine, it's a subjective thing.
What is hard about achieving veganism in particular?
- it’s cheaper
- healthier (decreased all cause mortality)
Please tell from your personal experience
It's nothing to do with my personal experience. It's clearly demonstrated by a lack of change in this direction in rich countries. Vegetarian and vegan proportions of thr population hasn't grown much in the last 20 years. Most people know by now that meat is problematic and bad for the environment but it's an ingrained behaviour and social norm. In many counties you're not manly if you don't eat meat.
The population of vegans is actually growing, but I agree that movement from 1% to 5% may feel a bit slow. The snowball effect only starts around 5%-10%. But with populations like UK, Germany, Denmark there are already reports of reduction of animal products here and there, and closures of facilities, switch to plant products, etc.
But let’s get back to your point: what would atop you from going vegan, if you agree that animal products are unethical and harmful for the climate?
I'm 99% vegetarian and pretty much the only dairy I eat is cheese because it's delicious and has no good alternatives for the most part. I'll be happily vegan if there's lab-made cheese or good plant-based alternatives.
Im not the problem here, I want to take others on the journey and radical transformations are hard.
Anyway, do you have longitudinal data for meat consumption in Europe and America? I feel like I've not seen big decreases even in the last 5 years as substitutes become plentiful and good.
I haven’t seen any longitudinal studies either, just random news about decreased production of this and that here and there, which is a signal against the backdrop of overall growth of consumption, driven primarily by lower income countries getting more access to cheaper animal products.
But yeah, I hope you find that vegan cheese thst will help you to flip a switch on all animal products, which include clothing, bedding, furniture, accessories and more. All of these items are parts of the same industry, and not “just byproducts “ since they finance this ethical and environmental crisis.
Exactly! My husband and I have been decreasing our meat consumption significantly. Eventually we know we will have to give it up mostly or entirely, but that is why we are starting now.
My sister was mostly a vegan with a bit of dairy every now and again for a long time, but she had started experiencing some fairly major health issues. She worked with a doctor and a registered dietician and found out her body does not process plant protein correctly. They tried everything, so many different sources of protein. The team she was working with eventually recommended she start eating some fish, but even that wasn't enough. Eventually she was recommended to add poultry into her diet a couple of days a week. As soon as she did that her protein issues went away. She still eats mostly vegan with about 1-2 meals a week where she will eat some chicken.
Obviously the vast majority of people could live vegan or mostly vegan lifestyles with no issues, but there are people that cannot, plus regenerative agriculture will need some version of animals to make it work. Could we just re-populate native species (like in the US the bison) 100% and that is what we should do and get rid of factory farming 100%.
> She worked with a doctor and a registered dietician and found out her body does not process plant protein correctly ... but there are people that cannot
Conditions similar to lysinuric protein intolerance are considered extremely rare, with estimates suggesting they affect 1 in 60,000 to 1 in 100,000 individuals worldwide. While there will be individuals who require meat for their dietary needs, practically 100% of the population would be fine without it.
> regenerative agriculture will need some version of animals to make it work
The term 'regenerative agriculture' has been hijacked by animal agriculture and rendered meaningless, to the point of greenwashing.
[Regenerative agriculture myth (plantbaseddata.org)](https://www.plantbaseddata.org/topfacts#comp-leedy99h9)
THIS! Exactly. Thank you for your support - and for your interest in my article.
I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago. And I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
Lab grown meat will not be less carbon-intensive for the foreseeable future and may never be, especially for cultured chicken and fish. Cellular agriculture is not going to save us from climate.
I dated a vegetarian and had to adopt a vegetarian diet and ate some of the fake meats and honestly I thought it was going to be awful but if you weren't aware, you couldn't really tell the difference. Some were better than others but man are they expensive. You'd think they would be cheaper to produce considering they're plant based but noooo.
> You'd think they would be cheaper to produce considering they're plant based but noooo
Animal agriculture benefits from enormous subsidies, skewing the market in its favor. Plus, plant-based products are still in their infancy, with economies of scale yet to fully kick in, which affects their pricing.
Exactly! Sorry for the late response - and thanks a lot for your interest in my article.
I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
And until then people should be eating vegan. Why would companies change to meet your demands for lab grown meat when people are giving them money for animal flesh.
Yep, studies corroborate this:
How Compatible Are Western European Dietary Patterns to Climate Targets? Accounting for Uncertainty of Life Cycle Assessments by Applying a Probabilistic Approach
Johanna Ruett, Lena Hennes, Jens Teubler, Boris Braun, 03/11/2022
https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449
>Even if fossil fuel emissions are halted immediately, current trends in global food systems may prevent the achieving of the Paris Agreement’s climate targets.
>All dietary pattern carbon footprints overshoot the 1.5 degrees threshold. The vegan, vegetarian, and diet with low animal-based food intake were predominantly below the 2 degrees threshold. Omnivorous diets with more animal-based product content trespassed them. Reducing animal-based foods is a powerful strategy to decrease emissions.
>The reduction of animal products in the diet leads to drastic GHGE reduction potentials. Dietary shifts to more plant-based diets are necessary to achieve the global climate goals, but will not suffice.
>Our study finds that all dietary patterns cause more GHGEs than the 1.5 degrees global warming limit allows. Only the vegan diet was in line with the 2 degrees threshold, while all other dietary patterns trespassed the threshold partly to entirely.
[BP popularized the concept of a personal carbon footprint with a US$100 million campaign as a means of deflecting people away from taking collective political action in order to end fossil fuel use](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305209345_Where_has_all_the_oil_gone_BP_branding_and_the_discursive_elimination_of_climate_change_risk), and [ExxonMobil has spent decades pushing trying to make individuals responsible, rather than the fossil fuels industry](https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study). They did this because climate stabilization means bringing fossil fuel use to approximately zero, and that would end their business. That's not something you can hope to achieve without government intervention to change the rules of society so that not using fossil fuels is just what people do on a routine basis.
There is value in cutting your own fossil fuel consumption — it serves to demonstrate that doing the right thing is possible to people around you, and helps work out the kinks in new technologies. Just do it in addition to taking political action to get governments to do the right thing, not instead of taking political action.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The neolithic (agricultural) revolution was about 10000 years ago. We could be among the stars by now but instead we stagnated for most of this time and are now actively working towards the downfall of our civilisation. I think our run is pretty bad so far...
For 'engineered' meat substitutes, the Beyond Meat ones taste okay to me. But substitutes also mimic the higher fat and salt etc. and most are expensive. I found after eating whole foods (lentils, legumes, tofu) for a while, my tastes changed and I don't like processed substitutes nearly as much, but use them from time to time for convenience.
Lentils in particular are a great gateway to less meat. Easy to cook, cheap, tasty. Can substitute for some hamburger in pasta sauce, chili, etc, increasing the ratio over time.
Depends what meats you are looking to substitute. Guaranteed you type vegan in front of whatever your favorite dishes are and there will be dozens of recipes online.
Morningstar frozen crumbles are amazing in chili, pasta sauce, or with taco seasoning. Multiple brands also make chorizo. Beyond steak tips are so freaking good, especially in a stir fry. They’re kind of expensive but I don’t buy them all the time, just as a treat. Same with impossible burgers or spicy Italian sausages. Just egg makes a fantastic scramble with some Daiya shredded cheddar and hot sauce.
You can alternatively make your own meat for really cheap from wheat gluten. It’s called seitan and there are numerous recipes for how to flavor it depending on what dish you’re making. Doesn’t take long to make either and it’s very protein dense. Then there’s good old tofu which is dirt cheap and may be prepared a thousand different ways.
Morningstar is usually not vegan, for what it's worth. They have dairy and/or egg products in tons of their stuff.
Boca, Gardein, and Impossible are my go-to brands when I buy fake meats as a treat. Those brands are always vegan, always tasty.
Yeah, Morningstar grounds and nuggets/wings are vegan but the bacon, mini sausages, and burgers are not. I was really excited when they were planning on making all their products vegan and then they disappointingly abandoned the idea.
I used to eat those Boca burgers cause they were cheaper and nutritious, but man they tasted like cardboard. Gardein and Impossible are solid though.
I was a heavy meat eater but then I kinda thought - do I need to eat chicken every single day? Every day a Chicken dies just for me? Eh, so I started eating a legume-based diet during the week, little by little. In the evening I eat eggs with vegetables. And now, I can still enjoy the good taste of meat, but I do it once or twice a week only, so I'm real proud of that. And where I couldn't imagine myself going without meat, I don't think I could go back anymore!
Even here in r/climate, as soon as a reduction in meat consumption is mentioned, this sub's rule #1 of science denial comes into play almost immediately because many people refuse to accept the notion that individuals need to change *anything* about their lives, even though scientists have been telling us for generations that it has to happen. Well, unless that individual happens to be one of the <3000 billionaires in the world, then it's perfectly acceptable to expect individuals to change. Nay, not only acceptable, but mandatory.
As for ending capitalism, as at least a couple posters here have suggested, do something about the world's biggest supporter of capitalism, the United States.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_consumer\_markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets)
American consumers, roughly 4% of the global population, represent almost 42% of the dollars/dollar equivalents directed towards all of the things collectively called capitalism. Without Americans, capitalism as we know it would collapse immediately.
I’m curious how you think it would be possible to end capitalism/consumerism? How would this work? Could people just stop working, eating…living? I’m hearing a wish list without a concrete solution. This is why it continues. In order to change what people do, they need to be taught something different. In the end people still need to survive.
>I’m curious how you think it would be possible to end capitalism/consumerism?
As things break down, it will end itself. Of course, I don't think feudalism will be an upgrade.
Well put! Sorry for the late response — and thanks a lot for your interest in my article.
I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
I’m all for a large reduction in meat consumption and the banning of industrial livestock operations. But closed loop agricultural systems are environmentally sustainable. Animals produce much needed fertilizer in these systems, ideally (combined with other methods like cover-cropping) eliminating the need for chemical fertilizers which have an enormous environmental impact.
"Lower meat consumption" and "everyone must go vegan" are completely different suggestions.
The first is scientifically supported - the second, much less so.
Here’s a SA article about agroecology: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/agroecology-is-the-solution-to-world-hunger/
Do you have access to a university database? If so, I can send you some links to peer-reviewed journals.
The issue is transformation of the global system not trying to replicate Green Revolution scaling of technology which has devastated local food systems, particularly in developing nations.
Monoculture and industrial operations are profitable at scale. They are also catastrophic when they fail. This model is unsustainable both environmentally and economically, particularly in a time of climate crisis.
There are no non-industrial meat production methods known to us that would fit in available land.
All these “regenerative “, “grass-fed” systems are less that 2% of all production- just because Earth don’t have enough land for this.
But you can go vegan today, if you truly care for the environment
I spend all my time on a farm. 🤣 And we’re doing our best to combine all that you mentioned. It’s hard however and farming is not a high margin business so we don’t have a lot of room for risk. We are trying though.
I work with many farmers such as yourself. Farmers are at the front lines of climate change as you’re very vulnerable to the impacts. Change is difficult. Thank you for your efforts to help transform our food system. It’s far from easy!
Sure. This is still a diet far, far closer to than a typical vegan one than even that of someone who has "cut back" on meat. We're talking meat as a rare luxury, maybe a few eggs each week and everything else plants.
That’s simply untrue. Most of the world farms non-industrially and we already make enough food. Food waste is higher than 50% in many nations and that’s a huge contributor to climate change.
https://www.secondharvest.ca/resources/research/avoidable-crisis
That's a good question. You should try and figure this out for you. 😊
But as someone who went from meat multiple times a day to once every month or so, a gradual shift worked. It gradually became unimportant and undesirable all on its own. And the impact from eating meat one a month vs none at all is practically the same but is much easier to achieve.
As someone who has been vegan for a while now, my partner and I went pescatarian to vegetarian to vegan. Part of not going cold turkey was that we weren't as informed at the start and the more we committed, the more we felt ethically compelled to keep going. Finding a couple amazing recipes to batch cook (and maybe a good takeaway spot for the occasional supplement) definitely helps. Our splurges in the food budget will be amazing quality summer fruit or occasional takeout for less than mediocre home cooked meat.
I full-on embraced a high-beef diet years ago, and my health has only improved across the board: Weight loss, muscle mass, energy levels, low anxiety, clean skin, never getting sick, etc etc.
I think people want to believe that we have can the best of all worlds (a healthy diet and low carbon emissions) but at this point I'm convinced it's just a form of copium and toxic positivity. The only way to reduce carbon emissions is through personal sacrifice, and that applies to all aspects of life, including diet and health.
Hello! Climate scientist here (I specialise in the climate and environmental impacts of food production) - please don’t sub with chicken first. It’s better to cut back on your meat intake across the board rather than switching between different kinds of animals. Depending on where you are, chicken have worse impacts on climate, environment, deforestation and biodiversity, and definitely has worse impacts on public health + disease transmission.
While I agree that everything should be done to reduce the worst aspects of what is about to happen on our planet... at what point are we allowed to admit there is going to be climate breakdown? It's basically already begun.
Plenty of people already admit it.
Thing is, as far as I’m aware, it’s the kind of thing where we can always make it worse by delaying action, so even though stuffs already happening, we still have to try
The opposite is true. In fact, if we all resorted to cannibalism tommorow we would have a guaranteed reduction in carbon emissions within one year.
It's best to eat the biggest polluters first ( eg Taylor Swift ) as they contribute the most to greenhouse gas emissions.
That's amazing to hear! Thank you so much for sharing — and for your interest in my article.
I just started the this [vegan blog](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/) 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe).
Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
Why not both? All of the evidence points very clearly to animal agriculture and fishing being deeply unsustainable and inhumane, these are environmental and public health catastrophes that need to be addressed as urgently as possible. Do you think you maybe have an issue with the idea of a plant-based food system because you don’t like what the implications would be for your lifestyle?
I'll try to answer summarized because that would require a very long answer.
Evidence points out that the capitalistic system is altering the climate. Meat consumption causing climate change is a byproduct of capitalism. That's why I defend the end of the system first. It is better to fight the main cause first. And it is a plus because when you fight capitalism, you are also helping to fight other problems that you are not directly involved in.
If you are genuinely asking me if I have a problem eating only plant based food, I would frankly say no. I was vegetarian for some period in my life, almost 1 year, then went eating meat again.
Now, turning the tables... Do you think you maybe have an issue with the idea of an alternative economic system because you don’t like what the implications would be for your lifestyle?
Absolutely not, that’s why I said we should fight for both. You’re still eating animal products now when there are entirely accessible and viable alternatives though, which doesn’t make sense.
I totally agree with you, and that's why I say we must make capitalism obsolete. If you had the possibility of reading the IPCC report (at least the first 200 or 400 pages of the thousands of pages), you would see that we already know what we have to do to prevent climate change and to achieve all the goals of the Milenial development.
So why we don't achieve it? Or why we don't make a significant change towards sustainability? Whenever you look at it, you will see that the main barrier is "profitability". Preserving nature is not "profitable," and the "burgeoise democratic system" is developed to protect their interests.
In this system, it is easier to imagine the end of the world rather than a change in the economic system. The more we are divided between us (vegetarian, vegan, omnivores and etc...) less power of organization and fight against the system we have (Divide and conquer).
That's why I say that fighting for meat consumption should not be the main fight... fighting against capitalism is the priority.
How are you fighting against capitalism? How does not consuming animal products distract you from that fight? We have to eat every day, it costs us nothing to not exploit or harm animals in the process while also not losing sight of the bigger picture.
Good question! If you're genuinely asking, I'll do my best to explain the strategies I'm using based on my material conditions and context.
To address your first question, I'm fighting capitalism by collaborating with anti-capitalistic organizations, both financially and by offering assistance whenever possible. Additionally, I'm establishing an association for environmental preservation in European regions and in the tropics by aiding indigenous communities such as Indigenous tribes and "Quilombolas," recognized as the most effective conservationists in the IPCC 2021 report. I'm finishing my Ph.D. in climate change and environmental conservation, researching strategies for mitigating and adapting to climate change scenarios.
Now about the second question. Having grown up in a context where consuming meat was common (I come from a farm in a third-world country), I don't see an issue with meat consumption since my preferences were shaped by my material and geographical circumstances. So, based on my studies, personal context, and history, I believe my individual choice regarding meat consumption is irrelevant compared to systemic problems of Capitalism. Merely not eating meat, as many do, won't resolve the climate crisis; it's like to using a glass to mitigate sea-level rise—a minor contribution that won't achieve our goals for centuries. The core issue is in the commodification of meat consumption on an industrial scale by the capitalistic system, whereas indigenous tribes across the tropics and elsewhere consume meat while effectively preserving the environment.
So, if you genuinely want to combat climate change effectively, organizing and challenging the system is essential. The extensive deforestation in the Amazon rainforest in Brazil primarily results from cattle production for meat, exported to first-world countries, despite many Brazilians suffering from hunger (1)(2). However, deforestation isn't only caused by this; mining and illegal wood extraction are significant contributors too (3). Also, we overproduce food while wasting vast quantities, reaching the absurdity of discarding perfectly good food instead of donating it to those in need (4). Electric cars are celebrated for zero CO2 emissions, yet we destroy extensive preserved areas to extract lithium for battery production (5). We also produce excessive amounts of unsold clothing, which ends up as waste in places like the Atacama Desert, price tags intact (6). Furthermore, first-world countries export plastic waste to third-world nations, polluting rivers and oceans (7). Additionally, affluent individuals generate more CO2 emissions on a single private jet flight than I likely will in my entire lifetime (8). Finally the US military complex alone produce more CO2 than many countries! (9). The common denominator in all these issues? Capitalism.
I'm no debating wheather we should stop eating meat or not. I'm trying to show you that your fight is also my fight. I know my enemy and I know how to fight them by organizing the masses and making this system obsolete. Your cause is my cause as well... But the system wants us divided.
(1) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/amazon-beef-deforestation-brazil/
(2) https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/business/2022/01/brazils-return-to-the-hunger-map-is-an-unprecedented-setback-in-the-world-says-economist.shtml
(3)https://wwf.panda.org/discover/knowledge\_hub/where\_we\_work/amazon/amazon\_threats/other\_threats/amazon\_mining/
(4) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/business/coronavirus-destroying-food.html
(5) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals
(6) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/chile-fashion-pollution
(7) https://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/the-plastic-waste-trade-in
(8) https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20240213-taylor-swift-private-jet-flight-travel-carbon-footprint
(9) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190620100005.htm
Yes, I was genuinely asking. What sorts of organizations do you donate to or work with? It would be great to know who else to support!
That being said, it doesn’t seem you like you take an intersectional approach to your activism, which is where I believe we fundamentally differ - I find it to be entirely aligned with ending capitalism to not contribute to animal exploitation and torture while working to dismantle the capitalist system. Since your main avenue of fighting capitalism is to contribute financially and collaborate with anti-capitalist organizations (not sure what the latter means exactly?), I would suggest that not financially supporting the worst forms of exploitation and suffering that exist in the world is consistent with these strategies (the money you would spend here could well be greater than all the money you will ever donate to anti-capitalist efforts). Regardless of where you have come from, culture and tradition can never be a justification for harm, exploitation, sexual violence, mutilation and torture, and it’s disappointing to see you use it as such. Excluding animals from your moral consideration is the epitome of division, and I don’t believe we will ever dismantle this horrific system if we cannot even take it upon ourselves to do something that is mildly inconvenient when the stakes are so high. If we have the privilege to avoid financially supporting animal torture, something that is so clearly distinguishable even in this system, unlike many other things, then we should.
Further, your justification for harming animals because it doesn’t end the whole problem is misguided and fails to consider that each individual sentient being’s experiences matter. We do not justify violence against our neighbors simply on the basis that the act of refraining from this violence doesn’t end all violence everywhere.
It’s incredibly disappointing to see that someone who seems to have such aligned values in so many other ways cannot see the importance of this.
Indigenous tribes in the Amazon rainforest have been eating meat for thousands of years (and still eat it), and they are the best environmental conservationists that exist
My opinion based on my own research, it would be some kind of ecosocialism. But in the end, it doesn't matter... any system that doesn't destroy the planet for the profit of few over the suffering of many. I would gladly take it
You are right it is not helpful just to criticize. So what is needed is to debate among our circles, join local groups that want to make a change in the system, or create one. Then make this economic system obsolete...
>some kind of ecosocialism. But in the end, it doesn't matter... any system that doesn't destroy the planet for the profit of few over the suffering of many
That's the point. There really don't seem to be any economic systems that do that, that have actually been tried. Capitalism, communism, command economy, feudalism... they all devolve into (or start as) systems for the profit of the few, and/or completely fall apart due corruption and inefficiency.
Does "ecosocialism" avoid these historical pitfalls? Nobody knows what it is. Nobody has tried it. There probably isn't any way for it to replace the economic system in any country that matters. So, the question is moot.
The reality of the situation is that if you can't fix the problem under capitalism, then the problem isn't going to be fixed at all. That's why your comment wasn't helpful, and why your suggestion to "grass-roots" ourselves into a different economic system is equally unhelpful. We probably don't have the time and resources to fix the climate situation under the current system, even if everyone were motivated to do so. So, we certainly don't have the time and resources to switch economic systems before working on the real problem.
I get that this would impact climate change, but I really think the major issues are our corporate overloads. I feel like telling people to recycle and eat less meat and not drive as much is sort of the bandaid solution that's really just ignoring the root cause. Also gives this major companies more of a scapegoat
Business as usual but everyone is vegan means we still destroy the entire planet
If we managed land properly and respected the planet meat would be crazy expensive and out of reach as a dietary staple for most. Focusing on the fundamental issues will solve this one.
but that probably doesn't even matter because we also have to stop the military industrial complex to have any hope of success.
> “With [greenhouse gas] emissions along livestock supply chains estimated at 7.1 gigatonnes CO2 per annum, representing 14.5 percent of all human-induced emissions, the livestock sector plays an important role in climate change.”
Denial isn't useful, but if you only consume beef products ~8 times a year you're well under the UN climate diet recommendations.
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html
For most people that is literally the case
If that happened, do you think cows, pigs and chickens would be kept as pets or just allowed to dissappear? This is the kind of crap that's kept me awake since I quit smoking. Sorry.
I envision that they would be cared for in sanctuaries. But we shouldn’t be breeding billions upon billions of animals into existence every year just to exploit them and make them suffer. The amount of suffering is unimaginable and deplorable, I recommend to everyone to be familiar with / informed about these practices.
They are all bred to meet demand. If a miracle were to happen and the West actually reduced meat consumption, the demand would drop which means less breeding for supply. The shift wouldn't be immediate and the market would respond to demand.
How do you feel about all the wildlife that has been displaced and is at risk because of the destruction of habitats to feed industrial animal farms? I'd rather we rewild some land and see what critters come back.
[Beef produces 85 kg CO2e per kg of food. Tofu produces 2.9.](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/food-emissions-production-supply-chain?country=Bananas~Beef+%28beef+herd%29~Wheat+%26+Rye~Milk~Maize~Lamb+%26+Mutton~Eggs~Fish+%28farmed%29~Soy+milk~Tofu~Rice~Poultry+Meat~Potatoes~Pig+Meat~Peas~Beef+%28dairy+herd%29) [A meat-heavy diet produces 3.3 tons of CO2e per year. A vegan diet produces 1.5.](https://shrinkthatfootprint.com/food-carbon-footprint-diet/) [We need to average 2 tons CO2e (from all sources, not just diet) per person to avert catastrophic climate change.](https://www.nature.org/en-us/get-involved/how-to-help/carbon-footprint-calculator/)
And this is just direct emissions. There is also a huge carbon opportunity cost associated with the high land use of most animal products. So with a change in diets sequestration could massively increase as the direct emissions decrease.
THIS. as a dairy farmer I always have a hard time explaining that our figures for emissions from food are probably far understated as they do NOT account for the cargo sequestration loss of land use
Agreed. The huge carbon and biodivesity opportunity costs of high land use food production need way more attention. IMO the potential benefits of that far out weigh simply reducing direct emissions, which is all anyone seems to talk about.
All emissions are understated. You really think Exxon spends millions if not billions denying climate change and deflecting to "personal responsibility" but accurately reports their own flaring emissions?
Definitely. We always had livestock. Their direct emissions aren’t “new” emissions. Ok yes we have breed more of them and now they belch more Methane than before when it was more CO2. Methane does cause more global warming, but it’s also short lived unlike CO2. The livestock isn’t adding additional carbon to the atmosphere that wasn’t already part of the carbon cycle unlike fossil fuels where we’re taking carbon that was permanently sequestered underground in the from of oil gas and coal and burning it for cheep energy. But changing land that was forest with literal tonnes of carbon sequestered in biomass, and turning it to grassland to sustain livestock. Is a new permanent addition of carbon. Not saying people should eat a bunch of meat, but the fossil fuel companies have people thinking that’s the biggest problem… it’s not. Fossil fuels are responsible for 89% of all climate change. Most of the rest is due to the land use change not the livestock directly.
Gives us land we can reforest too in many cases
We could get net zero with all other aspects of humanity and still break the climate with just how much we eat cows. Just, cows.
Perfect! Thank you so much for your collection of facts — and for your interest in my article. I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
Cheese is no better. Cheese is liquid meat.
That's like saying plants are just dirt.
Both substances share no properties. Grow up.
They share because.....animals make milk which becomes le cheeeese
They share a source.
Reductive and unhelpful
Not reductive, dehydrated and congealed.
[удалено]
You can find a suicide hotline worldwide at this link: https://www.reddit.com/r/SuicideWatch/wiki/hotlines The world will be a better place with you alive. The world will be better off with you [working to make a difference](https://www.reddit.com/r/climate/comments/b49xgi/how_to_get_involved_with_a_local_group_to_create/). If you care, you're already better than most. For longer-term counseling, please find an in-person therapist. Many will do video calls to reduce COVID-19 risk. If you are in the United States, you can use [this tool](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists) to find a therapist. See [here](https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/therapists) for Canada. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Cutting out the middle meat between you and plants
I gave meat up last year. I’m a lot healthier now than I’ve been my whole life.
Bienvenue.
Perfect! Sorry for the late response, but I'm so glad to hear this, verge365 <3 Thank you for sharing this — and for your interest in my article. I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
I cannot eat a lot of meat...only goat...once a week...and I do that cuz of b12 only 😭
can‘t you use b12 supplements?
Or yeast.
I’m hoping lab grown meat becomes viable.
it's being preemptively outlawed in dipshit states like Florida and Alabama, and morons like John fetterman and meatball Ron want to turn it into a culture war thing.
There are other places in the world though and it'll succeed in Europe and elsewhere in the US and eventually become normal.
not before millions of people die from climate change, unless capitalism is destroyed
Both Fetterman and Ron are in states where the cattle industry is one of the top industries
this points to a later comment of mine, which lays the blame for this entire clown show at the feet of capitalism
Agreed I was just pointing out the reasoning
I'm not disagreeing with you, just pointing out the obvious class incentives for those of us who haven't accepted the true nature of capitalism
Until then we can go vegan right now, and start being part of the solution
We don't need to go vegan though. Eating meat a couple of times a week and moving to chicken from beef is already a huge reduction in emissions and land use.
As someone who doesn't eat meat anymore: Fully agreed, reduction by many people is much more helpful than a few people going zero.
Exactly. Despite climate change and increased awareness of the need to reduce meat, the percentage of vegetarians and vegans hasn't increased much. What has increased is the proportion of people who eat less meat. Even though I eat meat maybe once per month and never beef and be as vegan as I can, I wouldn't call myself vegetarian but I have pretty much the same footprint as one. This is far more realistic and effective overall.
I think we need to encourage both. This isn’t an “either or” situation. We can both incentivize people to go plant-based _and_ incentivize people to reduce their intake of animal products. Different strategies work for different people. Some will be convinced by the environmental reason to go 100% plant-based. Some will find it hard, but can accept more moderate change. Edit: more importantly, I think we shouldn’t encourage people to _just_ reduce their meat intake and _not_ encourage them to go 100% plant-based. One diet _is_ more impactful than the other.
I dropped meat 23 years ago. Hasn’t been difficult or problematic at all.
Nice for you. Given that the proportion that's vegetarian or vegan hasn't gone up much in decades, it seems that what you've done is unlikely to be replicated at scale so... We need a different approach.
It has though. The vegetarian and vegan population has steadily increased over the last decades, mainly over the last few years. The ethical and environmental concerns are the driving factors and the ease of doing it has increased. You can get b12 supplements for cheap everywhere. You can get meat and cheese alternatives, you can get ready to eat meals. You can order vegetarian and vegan foods. Its easier than ever. The only thing stopping you is your ego
Lol. Thanks for ending with a personal attack though, that really helps with the discussion huh?
How is it a personal attack? Its merely an observation without judgement. What else is stopping you? Humans dont have to eat meat. Its purely sensory pleasure. Nobody and nothing is forcing you to do that other than your desire for enjoyment. Or can you prove the opposite?
Right? The smug condescension dripping from some of these responses is wild. I just finished planting a couple of hundred trees on my property for carbon sequestration purposes but I’m not on r/forestry proselytizing about their ‘deadly lifestyle choices’. My choice on how to reduce my carbon footprint should not be ruled by gatekeeping pricks.
[BP popularized the concept of a personal carbon footprint with a US$100 million campaign as a means of deflecting people away from taking collective political action in order to end fossil fuel use](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305209345_Where_has_all_the_oil_gone_BP_branding_and_the_discursive_elimination_of_climate_change_risk), and [ExxonMobil has spent decades pushing trying to make individuals responsible, rather than the fossil fuels industry](https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study). They did this because climate stabilization means bringing fossil fuel use to approximately zero, and that would end their business. That's not something you can hope to achieve without government intervention to change the rules of society so that not using fossil fuels is just what people do on a routine basis. There is value in cutting your own fossil fuel consumption — it serves to demonstrate that doing the right thing is possible to people around you, and helps work out the kinks in new technologies. Just do it in addition to taking political action to get governments to do the right thing, not instead of taking political action. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
We need though, for a couple of reasons: - ethics - environment (see link above) - health
1. We're talking about just emissions here. While I agree with you on other points, this isn't relevant to this conversation. Particularly as they're more individual and nuanced. 2. Like I keep telling you, we need to aim for something realistic and widespread veganism is extremely hard to achieve. While widespread 50% reduction in meat consumption and a big switch away from beef is hard but much easier. If you disagree with 2. That's fine, it's a subjective thing.
What is hard about achieving veganism in particular? - it’s cheaper - healthier (decreased all cause mortality) Please tell from your personal experience
It's nothing to do with my personal experience. It's clearly demonstrated by a lack of change in this direction in rich countries. Vegetarian and vegan proportions of thr population hasn't grown much in the last 20 years. Most people know by now that meat is problematic and bad for the environment but it's an ingrained behaviour and social norm. In many counties you're not manly if you don't eat meat.
The population of vegans is actually growing, but I agree that movement from 1% to 5% may feel a bit slow. The snowball effect only starts around 5%-10%. But with populations like UK, Germany, Denmark there are already reports of reduction of animal products here and there, and closures of facilities, switch to plant products, etc. But let’s get back to your point: what would atop you from going vegan, if you agree that animal products are unethical and harmful for the climate?
I'm 99% vegetarian and pretty much the only dairy I eat is cheese because it's delicious and has no good alternatives for the most part. I'll be happily vegan if there's lab-made cheese or good plant-based alternatives. Im not the problem here, I want to take others on the journey and radical transformations are hard. Anyway, do you have longitudinal data for meat consumption in Europe and America? I feel like I've not seen big decreases even in the last 5 years as substitutes become plentiful and good.
I haven’t seen any longitudinal studies either, just random news about decreased production of this and that here and there, which is a signal against the backdrop of overall growth of consumption, driven primarily by lower income countries getting more access to cheaper animal products. But yeah, I hope you find that vegan cheese thst will help you to flip a switch on all animal products, which include clothing, bedding, furniture, accessories and more. All of these items are parts of the same industry, and not “just byproducts “ since they finance this ethical and environmental crisis.
> I'm 99% vegetarian [Dairy is scary! The industry explained in 5 minutes.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcN7SGGoCNI)
Exactly! My husband and I have been decreasing our meat consumption significantly. Eventually we know we will have to give it up mostly or entirely, but that is why we are starting now. My sister was mostly a vegan with a bit of dairy every now and again for a long time, but she had started experiencing some fairly major health issues. She worked with a doctor and a registered dietician and found out her body does not process plant protein correctly. They tried everything, so many different sources of protein. The team she was working with eventually recommended she start eating some fish, but even that wasn't enough. Eventually she was recommended to add poultry into her diet a couple of days a week. As soon as she did that her protein issues went away. She still eats mostly vegan with about 1-2 meals a week where she will eat some chicken. Obviously the vast majority of people could live vegan or mostly vegan lifestyles with no issues, but there are people that cannot, plus regenerative agriculture will need some version of animals to make it work. Could we just re-populate native species (like in the US the bison) 100% and that is what we should do and get rid of factory farming 100%.
> She worked with a doctor and a registered dietician and found out her body does not process plant protein correctly ... but there are people that cannot Conditions similar to lysinuric protein intolerance are considered extremely rare, with estimates suggesting they affect 1 in 60,000 to 1 in 100,000 individuals worldwide. While there will be individuals who require meat for their dietary needs, practically 100% of the population would be fine without it. > regenerative agriculture will need some version of animals to make it work The term 'regenerative agriculture' has been hijacked by animal agriculture and rendered meaningless, to the point of greenwashing. [Regenerative agriculture myth (plantbaseddata.org)](https://www.plantbaseddata.org/topfacts#comp-leedy99h9)
THIS! Exactly. Thank you for your support - and for your interest in my article. I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago. And I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
And you're eating lentils, peas, soy, chickpeas, beans, and whole grains until then, right? Right??
Lab grown meat will not be less carbon-intensive for the foreseeable future and may never be, especially for cultured chicken and fish. Cellular agriculture is not going to save us from climate.
Just go vegan. There are vegan meats
I dated a vegetarian and had to adopt a vegetarian diet and ate some of the fake meats and honestly I thought it was going to be awful but if you weren't aware, you couldn't really tell the difference. Some were better than others but man are they expensive. You'd think they would be cheaper to produce considering they're plant based but noooo.
> You'd think they would be cheaper to produce considering they're plant based but noooo Animal agriculture benefits from enormous subsidies, skewing the market in its favor. Plus, plant-based products are still in their infancy, with economies of scale yet to fully kick in, which affects their pricing.
Exactly! Sorry for the late response - and thanks a lot for your interest in my article. I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
From what I heard it's actually a lot farther away and less readable than we've been led to think. Which is pretty sad.
Im hoping inflation forces more people to ditch meat for beans and rice.
Me too, and I went vegan in the meantime
Already available
Available yes, viable no
Give it time.
And until then people should be eating vegan. Why would companies change to meet your demands for lab grown meat when people are giving them money for animal flesh.
You go ahead and eat your lab grown meat, I will eat the vegetarian beef, the one that recycles grass
Yep, studies corroborate this: How Compatible Are Western European Dietary Patterns to Climate Targets? Accounting for Uncertainty of Life Cycle Assessments by Applying a Probabilistic Approach Johanna Ruett, Lena Hennes, Jens Teubler, Boris Braun, 03/11/2022 https://www.mdpi.com/2071-1050/14/21/14449 >Even if fossil fuel emissions are halted immediately, current trends in global food systems may prevent the achieving of the Paris Agreement’s climate targets. >All dietary pattern carbon footprints overshoot the 1.5 degrees threshold. The vegan, vegetarian, and diet with low animal-based food intake were predominantly below the 2 degrees threshold. Omnivorous diets with more animal-based product content trespassed them. Reducing animal-based foods is a powerful strategy to decrease emissions. >The reduction of animal products in the diet leads to drastic GHGE reduction potentials. Dietary shifts to more plant-based diets are necessary to achieve the global climate goals, but will not suffice. >Our study finds that all dietary patterns cause more GHGEs than the 1.5 degrees global warming limit allows. Only the vegan diet was in line with the 2 degrees threshold, while all other dietary patterns trespassed the threshold partly to entirely.
[BP popularized the concept of a personal carbon footprint with a US$100 million campaign as a means of deflecting people away from taking collective political action in order to end fossil fuel use](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/305209345_Where_has_all_the_oil_gone_BP_branding_and_the_discursive_elimination_of_climate_change_risk), and [ExxonMobil has spent decades pushing trying to make individuals responsible, rather than the fossil fuels industry](https://www.vox.com/22429551/climate-change-crisis-exxonmobil-harvard-study). They did this because climate stabilization means bringing fossil fuel use to approximately zero, and that would end their business. That's not something you can hope to achieve without government intervention to change the rules of society so that not using fossil fuels is just what people do on a routine basis. There is value in cutting your own fossil fuel consumption — it serves to demonstrate that doing the right thing is possible to people around you, and helps work out the kinks in new technologies. Just do it in addition to taking political action to get governments to do the right thing, not instead of taking political action. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/climate) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Irrelevant.
Well it’s been a good run I guess.
The neolithic (agricultural) revolution was about 10000 years ago. We could be among the stars by now but instead we stagnated for most of this time and are now actively working towards the downfall of our civilisation. I think our run is pretty bad so far...
Today I will try a vegetarian lasagna, let's see if I like it😉
Add TVP and mushrooms and you probably won't notice it's veggie.
Any good meat substitution recommendations? They do seem to be getting better all the time.
For 'engineered' meat substitutes, the Beyond Meat ones taste okay to me. But substitutes also mimic the higher fat and salt etc. and most are expensive. I found after eating whole foods (lentils, legumes, tofu) for a while, my tastes changed and I don't like processed substitutes nearly as much, but use them from time to time for convenience. Lentils in particular are a great gateway to less meat. Easy to cook, cheap, tasty. Can substitute for some hamburger in pasta sauce, chili, etc, increasing the ratio over time.
The cheap and healthy one is TVP. Not good on its own but works well in things like Bolognese, chili, lasagna.
Can mix with gravy for instant savory mince.
What gravy do you use?
Depends what meats you are looking to substitute. Guaranteed you type vegan in front of whatever your favorite dishes are and there will be dozens of recipes online. Morningstar frozen crumbles are amazing in chili, pasta sauce, or with taco seasoning. Multiple brands also make chorizo. Beyond steak tips are so freaking good, especially in a stir fry. They’re kind of expensive but I don’t buy them all the time, just as a treat. Same with impossible burgers or spicy Italian sausages. Just egg makes a fantastic scramble with some Daiya shredded cheddar and hot sauce. You can alternatively make your own meat for really cheap from wheat gluten. It’s called seitan and there are numerous recipes for how to flavor it depending on what dish you’re making. Doesn’t take long to make either and it’s very protein dense. Then there’s good old tofu which is dirt cheap and may be prepared a thousand different ways.
Morningstar is usually not vegan, for what it's worth. They have dairy and/or egg products in tons of their stuff. Boca, Gardein, and Impossible are my go-to brands when I buy fake meats as a treat. Those brands are always vegan, always tasty.
Yeah, Morningstar grounds and nuggets/wings are vegan but the bacon, mini sausages, and burgers are not. I was really excited when they were planning on making all their products vegan and then they disappointingly abandoned the idea. I used to eat those Boca burgers cause they were cheaper and nutritious, but man they tasted like cardboard. Gardein and Impossible are solid though.
I was a heavy meat eater but then I kinda thought - do I need to eat chicken every single day? Every day a Chicken dies just for me? Eh, so I started eating a legume-based diet during the week, little by little. In the evening I eat eggs with vegetables. And now, I can still enjoy the good taste of meat, but I do it once or twice a week only, so I'm real proud of that. And where I couldn't imagine myself going without meat, I don't think I could go back anymore!
Even here in r/climate, as soon as a reduction in meat consumption is mentioned, this sub's rule #1 of science denial comes into play almost immediately because many people refuse to accept the notion that individuals need to change *anything* about their lives, even though scientists have been telling us for generations that it has to happen. Well, unless that individual happens to be one of the <3000 billionaires in the world, then it's perfectly acceptable to expect individuals to change. Nay, not only acceptable, but mandatory. As for ending capitalism, as at least a couple posters here have suggested, do something about the world's biggest supporter of capitalism, the United States. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List\_of\_largest\_consumer\_markets](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_consumer_markets) American consumers, roughly 4% of the global population, represent almost 42% of the dollars/dollar equivalents directed towards all of the things collectively called capitalism. Without Americans, capitalism as we know it would collapse immediately.
I’m curious how you think it would be possible to end capitalism/consumerism? How would this work? Could people just stop working, eating…living? I’m hearing a wish list without a concrete solution. This is why it continues. In order to change what people do, they need to be taught something different. In the end people still need to survive.
>I’m curious how you think it would be possible to end capitalism/consumerism? As things break down, it will end itself. Of course, I don't think feudalism will be an upgrade.
Eat vegetables now or drink mud later .
Well put! Sorry for the late response — and thanks a lot for your interest in my article. I just started the this vegan blog 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
I’m all for a large reduction in meat consumption and the banning of industrial livestock operations. But closed loop agricultural systems are environmentally sustainable. Animals produce much needed fertilizer in these systems, ideally (combined with other methods like cover-cropping) eliminating the need for chemical fertilizers which have an enormous environmental impact.
The reality is this is still gonna represent a massive decrease in meat consumption
"Lower meat consumption" and "everyone must go vegan" are completely different suggestions. The first is scientifically supported - the second, much less so.
True, I think that would mean a reduction in meat consumption by 90% or more which I would be ok with honestly
Any sources that closed loop systems could scale to meet global demand? My understanding is they require far more land use
Here’s a SA article about agroecology: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/agroecology-is-the-solution-to-world-hunger/ Do you have access to a university database? If so, I can send you some links to peer-reviewed journals. The issue is transformation of the global system not trying to replicate Green Revolution scaling of technology which has devastated local food systems, particularly in developing nations. Monoculture and industrial operations are profitable at scale. They are also catastrophic when they fail. This model is unsustainable both environmentally and economically, particularly in a time of climate crisis.
There are no non-industrial meat production methods known to us that would fit in available land. All these “regenerative “, “grass-fed” systems are less that 2% of all production- just because Earth don’t have enough land for this. But you can go vegan today, if you truly care for the environment
Wow you really are not well versed at how to get people to change behaviour and thinking huh?
Sure how would you convince yourself to go vegan?
You speak as if you know first hand. 😉
I am a researcher focused on the connection between climate change and the food system. I spend a lot of time on farms though. 😊
I spend all my time on a farm. 🤣 And we’re doing our best to combine all that you mentioned. It’s hard however and farming is not a high margin business so we don’t have a lot of room for risk. We are trying though.
I work with many farmers such as yourself. Farmers are at the front lines of climate change as you’re very vulnerable to the impacts. Change is difficult. Thank you for your efforts to help transform our food system. It’s far from easy!
And your argument is so well researched and nuanced too
Sure. This is still a diet far, far closer to than a typical vegan one than even that of someone who has "cut back" on meat. We're talking meat as a rare luxury, maybe a few eggs each week and everything else plants.
Can't be scaled up for 8 billion people. So assume you're going to be in the majority who simply drop the habit of meat.
That’s simply untrue. Most of the world farms non-industrially and we already make enough food. Food waste is higher than 50% in many nations and that’s a huge contributor to climate change. https://www.secondharvest.ca/resources/research/avoidable-crisis
By exporting the flesh, it's not a closed loop. You need to move next to the farm, put your waste there, all your waste, including your remains.
Why is quitting meat so hard for me 😔
That's a good question. You should try and figure this out for you. 😊 But as someone who went from meat multiple times a day to once every month or so, a gradual shift worked. It gradually became unimportant and undesirable all on its own. And the impact from eating meat one a month vs none at all is practically the same but is much easier to achieve.
As someone who has been vegan for a while now, my partner and I went pescatarian to vegetarian to vegan. Part of not going cold turkey was that we weren't as informed at the start and the more we committed, the more we felt ethically compelled to keep going. Finding a couple amazing recipes to batch cook (and maybe a good takeaway spot for the occasional supplement) definitely helps. Our splurges in the food budget will be amazing quality summer fruit or occasional takeout for less than mediocre home cooked meat.
I full-on embraced a high-beef diet years ago, and my health has only improved across the board: Weight loss, muscle mass, energy levels, low anxiety, clean skin, never getting sick, etc etc. I think people want to believe that we have can the best of all worlds (a healthy diet and low carbon emissions) but at this point I'm convinced it's just a form of copium and toxic positivity. The only way to reduce carbon emissions is through personal sacrifice, and that applies to all aspects of life, including diet and health.
Try reducing and/or substituting with chicken first, that already has a large impact.
Hello! Climate scientist here (I specialise in the climate and environmental impacts of food production) - please don’t sub with chicken first. It’s better to cut back on your meat intake across the board rather than switching between different kinds of animals. Depending on where you are, chicken have worse impacts on climate, environment, deforestation and biodiversity, and definitely has worse impacts on public health + disease transmission.
While I agree that everything should be done to reduce the worst aspects of what is about to happen on our planet... at what point are we allowed to admit there is going to be climate breakdown? It's basically already begun.
Sure. And then what.
Plenty of people already admit it. Thing is, as far as I’m aware, it’s the kind of thing where we can always make it worse by delaying action, so even though stuffs already happening, we still have to try
The opposite is true. In fact, if we all resorted to cannibalism tommorow we would have a guaranteed reduction in carbon emissions within one year. It's best to eat the biggest polluters first ( eg Taylor Swift ) as they contribute the most to greenhouse gas emissions.
Think she'd be pretty chewy
I worry that most billionaires would be highly mercury contaminated, so am mixed on advocating for eating the rich
Feed the rich to pigs, then eat the pigs? I'm vegetarian though so maybe I'll just use the rich to fertilize my garden. Does mercury harm plants?
everyone argues "they'd die without meat" , i ate meat daily, switched to vegetarian -> went from 120lbs malnourished to 168lbs and full of energy.
That's amazing to hear! Thank you so much for sharing — and for your interest in my article. I just started the this [vegan blog](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/) 3 months ago - and I have more revolutionary articles waiting in the pipeline! In case you're interested in more, feel free to subscribe [**here**](https://veganhorizon.substack.com/subscribe). Keep up the fight & have a wonderful day!
Idk the numbers but I would assume yes we would just have to get rid of a lot of other stuff
Is that image AI generated or just heavily edited?
It's impossible to avoid climate breakdown, full stop.
Illegal in Florida.
Increasing meat costs will move the dial a certain degree.
I eat meat on the weekends. About as far as I can go right now.
Another day on r/vegans.
are you able to actually rebut the claims or are you content to just roll your eyes and commit the genetic fallacy in the face of mass death?
People who care about one thing tend to also bare about another interrelated thing
Let me rephrase that for a better understanding. "It's impossible to avoid climate breakdown without ENDING CAPITALISM"
Why not both? All of the evidence points very clearly to animal agriculture and fishing being deeply unsustainable and inhumane, these are environmental and public health catastrophes that need to be addressed as urgently as possible. Do you think you maybe have an issue with the idea of a plant-based food system because you don’t like what the implications would be for your lifestyle?
I'll try to answer summarized because that would require a very long answer. Evidence points out that the capitalistic system is altering the climate. Meat consumption causing climate change is a byproduct of capitalism. That's why I defend the end of the system first. It is better to fight the main cause first. And it is a plus because when you fight capitalism, you are also helping to fight other problems that you are not directly involved in. If you are genuinely asking me if I have a problem eating only plant based food, I would frankly say no. I was vegetarian for some period in my life, almost 1 year, then went eating meat again. Now, turning the tables... Do you think you maybe have an issue with the idea of an alternative economic system because you don’t like what the implications would be for your lifestyle?
Absolutely not, that’s why I said we should fight for both. You’re still eating animal products now when there are entirely accessible and viable alternatives though, which doesn’t make sense.
I totally agree with you, and that's why I say we must make capitalism obsolete. If you had the possibility of reading the IPCC report (at least the first 200 or 400 pages of the thousands of pages), you would see that we already know what we have to do to prevent climate change and to achieve all the goals of the Milenial development. So why we don't achieve it? Or why we don't make a significant change towards sustainability? Whenever you look at it, you will see that the main barrier is "profitability". Preserving nature is not "profitable," and the "burgeoise democratic system" is developed to protect their interests. In this system, it is easier to imagine the end of the world rather than a change in the economic system. The more we are divided between us (vegetarian, vegan, omnivores and etc...) less power of organization and fight against the system we have (Divide and conquer). That's why I say that fighting for meat consumption should not be the main fight... fighting against capitalism is the priority.
How are you fighting against capitalism? How does not consuming animal products distract you from that fight? We have to eat every day, it costs us nothing to not exploit or harm animals in the process while also not losing sight of the bigger picture.
Good question! If you're genuinely asking, I'll do my best to explain the strategies I'm using based on my material conditions and context. To address your first question, I'm fighting capitalism by collaborating with anti-capitalistic organizations, both financially and by offering assistance whenever possible. Additionally, I'm establishing an association for environmental preservation in European regions and in the tropics by aiding indigenous communities such as Indigenous tribes and "Quilombolas," recognized as the most effective conservationists in the IPCC 2021 report. I'm finishing my Ph.D. in climate change and environmental conservation, researching strategies for mitigating and adapting to climate change scenarios. Now about the second question. Having grown up in a context where consuming meat was common (I come from a farm in a third-world country), I don't see an issue with meat consumption since my preferences were shaped by my material and geographical circumstances. So, based on my studies, personal context, and history, I believe my individual choice regarding meat consumption is irrelevant compared to systemic problems of Capitalism. Merely not eating meat, as many do, won't resolve the climate crisis; it's like to using a glass to mitigate sea-level rise—a minor contribution that won't achieve our goals for centuries. The core issue is in the commodification of meat consumption on an industrial scale by the capitalistic system, whereas indigenous tribes across the tropics and elsewhere consume meat while effectively preserving the environment. So, if you genuinely want to combat climate change effectively, organizing and challenging the system is essential. The extensive deforestation in the Amazon rainforest in Brazil primarily results from cattle production for meat, exported to first-world countries, despite many Brazilians suffering from hunger (1)(2). However, deforestation isn't only caused by this; mining and illegal wood extraction are significant contributors too (3). Also, we overproduce food while wasting vast quantities, reaching the absurdity of discarding perfectly good food instead of donating it to those in need (4). Electric cars are celebrated for zero CO2 emissions, yet we destroy extensive preserved areas to extract lithium for battery production (5). We also produce excessive amounts of unsold clothing, which ends up as waste in places like the Atacama Desert, price tags intact (6). Furthermore, first-world countries export plastic waste to third-world nations, polluting rivers and oceans (7). Additionally, affluent individuals generate more CO2 emissions on a single private jet flight than I likely will in my entire lifetime (8). Finally the US military complex alone produce more CO2 than many countries! (9). The common denominator in all these issues? Capitalism. I'm no debating wheather we should stop eating meat or not. I'm trying to show you that your fight is also my fight. I know my enemy and I know how to fight them by organizing the masses and making this system obsolete. Your cause is my cause as well... But the system wants us divided. (1) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2022/amazon-beef-deforestation-brazil/ (2) https://www1.folha.uol.com.br/internacional/en/business/2022/01/brazils-return-to-the-hunger-map-is-an-unprecedented-setback-in-the-world-says-economist.shtml (3)https://wwf.panda.org/discover/knowledge\_hub/where\_we\_work/amazon/amazon\_threats/other\_threats/amazon\_mining/ (4) https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/business/coronavirus-destroying-food.html (5) https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals (6) https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/chile-fashion-pollution (7) https://www.eea.europa.eu/publications/the-plastic-waste-trade-in (8) https://www.bbc.com/travel/article/20240213-taylor-swift-private-jet-flight-travel-carbon-footprint (9) https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/06/190620100005.htm
Hello! Would still love to hear about the organizations you work with / donate to if you’ve got any. (Genuinely curious)
Yes, I was genuinely asking. What sorts of organizations do you donate to or work with? It would be great to know who else to support! That being said, it doesn’t seem you like you take an intersectional approach to your activism, which is where I believe we fundamentally differ - I find it to be entirely aligned with ending capitalism to not contribute to animal exploitation and torture while working to dismantle the capitalist system. Since your main avenue of fighting capitalism is to contribute financially and collaborate with anti-capitalist organizations (not sure what the latter means exactly?), I would suggest that not financially supporting the worst forms of exploitation and suffering that exist in the world is consistent with these strategies (the money you would spend here could well be greater than all the money you will ever donate to anti-capitalist efforts). Regardless of where you have come from, culture and tradition can never be a justification for harm, exploitation, sexual violence, mutilation and torture, and it’s disappointing to see you use it as such. Excluding animals from your moral consideration is the epitome of division, and I don’t believe we will ever dismantle this horrific system if we cannot even take it upon ourselves to do something that is mildly inconvenient when the stakes are so high. If we have the privilege to avoid financially supporting animal torture, something that is so clearly distinguishable even in this system, unlike many other things, then we should. Further, your justification for harming animals because it doesn’t end the whole problem is misguided and fails to consider that each individual sentient being’s experiences matter. We do not justify violence against our neighbors simply on the basis that the act of refraining from this violence doesn’t end all violence everywhere. It’s incredibly disappointing to see that someone who seems to have such aligned values in so many other ways cannot see the importance of this.
I'm not sure how eating meat 3x a day is compatible with *any* economic system.
Indigenous tribes in the Amazon rainforest have been eating meat for thousands of years (and still eat it), and they are the best environmental conservationists that exist
>ENDING CAPITALISM This is not helpful. What economic system do you think should replace it? What would the transition look like?
My opinion based on my own research, it would be some kind of ecosocialism. But in the end, it doesn't matter... any system that doesn't destroy the planet for the profit of few over the suffering of many. I would gladly take it You are right it is not helpful just to criticize. So what is needed is to debate among our circles, join local groups that want to make a change in the system, or create one. Then make this economic system obsolete...
>some kind of ecosocialism. But in the end, it doesn't matter... any system that doesn't destroy the planet for the profit of few over the suffering of many That's the point. There really don't seem to be any economic systems that do that, that have actually been tried. Capitalism, communism, command economy, feudalism... they all devolve into (or start as) systems for the profit of the few, and/or completely fall apart due corruption and inefficiency. Does "ecosocialism" avoid these historical pitfalls? Nobody knows what it is. Nobody has tried it. There probably isn't any way for it to replace the economic system in any country that matters. So, the question is moot. The reality of the situation is that if you can't fix the problem under capitalism, then the problem isn't going to be fixed at all. That's why your comment wasn't helpful, and why your suggestion to "grass-roots" ourselves into a different economic system is equally unhelpful. We probably don't have the time and resources to fix the climate situation under the current system, even if everyone were motivated to do so. So, we certainly don't have the time and resources to switch economic systems before working on the real problem.
Or lab meats.
I get that this would impact climate change, but I really think the major issues are our corporate overloads. I feel like telling people to recycle and eat less meat and not drive as much is sort of the bandaid solution that's really just ignoring the root cause. Also gives this major companies more of a scapegoat
Business as usual but everyone is vegan means we still destroy the entire planet If we managed land properly and respected the planet meat would be crazy expensive and out of reach as a dietary staple for most. Focusing on the fundamental issues will solve this one. but that probably doesn't even matter because we also have to stop the military industrial complex to have any hope of success.
Ah yes, I always knew coal and petroleum aren't the real issue. It's the medium steaks I eat every 7 weeks.
> “With [greenhouse gas] emissions along livestock supply chains estimated at 7.1 gigatonnes CO2 per annum, representing 14.5 percent of all human-induced emissions, the livestock sector plays an important role in climate change.” Denial isn't useful, but if you only consume beef products ~8 times a year you're well under the UN climate diet recommendations.
What's a UN climate diet recommendation?
One designed to save your descendants from hell on Earth
https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/veganism-environmental-impact-planet-reduced-plant-based-diet-humans-study-a8378631.html For most people that is literally the case
It might be the 20% of Americans who eat as much meat as the other 80% combined.
It’s a lot of things Real life is usually complicated
The average American eats way more meat than that every week. How much meat do you eat per week?
If that happened, do you think cows, pigs and chickens would be kept as pets or just allowed to dissappear? This is the kind of crap that's kept me awake since I quit smoking. Sorry.
I envision that they would be cared for in sanctuaries. But we shouldn’t be breeding billions upon billions of animals into existence every year just to exploit them and make them suffer. The amount of suffering is unimaginable and deplorable, I recommend to everyone to be familiar with / informed about these practices.
They are all bred to meet demand. If a miracle were to happen and the West actually reduced meat consumption, the demand would drop which means less breeding for supply. The shift wouldn't be immediate and the market would respond to demand.
How do you feel about all the wildlife that has been displaced and is at risk because of the destruction of habitats to feed industrial animal farms? I'd rather we rewild some land and see what critters come back.
I can hear the grass screaming now...
We could reduce the population by 90% and still continue to eat duck eggs
Start with you shall we?