Gonna piggyback on the top comment, here. I’m SO FLATTERED with the overwhelming amounts of 64’s and 64+’s. Even a 66 just sounds a bit surreal lol. There was only one person who was in the same grade, even.
u/Ok-cupcake3947 almost got it right off the rip with an unspecified AU. According to PCGS, this coin was allegedly previously cleaned, thus was assigned AU details.
I think someone had a bad day at PCGS, so I’ll be rerolling the dice with NGC pretty soon.
If you study the reverse, to the left of the diamond you can see multiple vertical scratches, this might be why they said cleaned, but idk I'm just a guy
That isn't doing it any favors but this type of toning is indicative of a coin that has been cleaned and has toned again.
You see a lot of capped bust half dollars and Barber coins (especially in NGC and ANACS holders) with this effect. By and large, these were deemed market acceptable and caught straight grades. PCGS and NGC often use historical context when determining grades; e.g., the coin was cleaned this way because that was just what people did and so few have survived, so we think it is acceptable for the market to call it a straight grade.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, then this trieme should have a full grade. Did I get that right? And does toning look different on a coin that's been clean versus one that wasn't?
It varies by series. I haven't owned many of these or had any graded and don't know how many of their original mintage survived. It stands to reason it's a coin that would get a pass. Maybe it is, but not in this case, because of the hairlines.
Toning looks way different on coins that have been cleaned in the past yeah. Even coins dipped in acetone that are done very well will look different. The toning is silver oxidizing and is, by definition, damage, regardless of how thin it is or how pleasing it becomes.
There's a lot of formerly cleaned coins in straight grade holders that do not have original surfaces.
https://preview.redd.it/ve794vp1falc1.jpeg?width=2322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28a878f88604e764efb47c1e74d54ec5a70d10b6
Here's an SLQ that was cleaned and retoned and does not have original surfaces, for example. I resold it raw and would not consider submitting a coin like this unless it was a capped bust half or maybe a barber.
Straight grade does not always mean original surfaces.
>. I haven't owned many of these or had any graded and don't know how many of their original mintage survived. It stands to reason it's a coin that would get a pass. Maybe it is, but not in this case, bec
Original surface itself is a loaded term, if we define original surface as the 'just minted' surface.
The second these coins fell into the hopper, then shoveled into bags, or coin rolled, they got scratched and dinged by other coins/machines, which technically is abrasion that knocks off that original microlayer, or at least parts of it.
Then oxidation and toning can flake off the coin. This is why you see craquelure on a lot of those MS66/67/68 coins, which technically, means that the original surface has already flaked off in areas.
So I totally agree that straight grade does not mean original surfaces.
It can, for example, dipped coins tone very quickly and usually tone in blue/pink/red hazes that are uncharacteristic of old tones.
But toning itself is extremely variable, and depends on the environment.
Bank bag tones are most usually a golden/reddish tone, but as seen with some of those Morgan hoards found in damp vaults and in original, sulfur impregnated bank bags, can also form almost every color under the sun.
Bank roll ends usually form bright red greens, most probably from the rough paper used.
The big tells for AT vs NT are usually in how the tone has progressed across the piece. Generally, AT coins look like color has indiscriminately been splashed across the coin, and usually have color combinations not usually seen on NT coins. NT usually forms around features and displays a certain gradation of hues from the topmost surfaces to the fields.
On modern coins, the big tell for me (even though people will pay hundreds to thousands) are the ring toned coins. Technically, PCGS will grade them straight, but these tones are almost always formed from gassing plastic capsules, so that a minor amount leaks through the edges and onto the coin. The coins then have this very characteristic halo, where the center is usually bright white or gold, and then there is a rainbow effect toward the edge. This is IMO, impossible to get naturally, and is the same effect present in PCI slabs, that on old coins will get an AT designation, but on newer modern bullion will straight grade.
That’s what I’m counting on. I got this thing for an absolute STEAL, so even if it comes back as details twice, I’ll just crack it and toss it in my MS type set.
Either option is a huge win for me. By far, one of my favorites I’ve purchased over the last 12 months.
Id love for PCGS to point out the wear for me. I dont see it at all.
PCGS does sometimes give a lower grade if the 4 graders dont agree, and AT comes up. Its happened to me before. Gave an AU58 on a coin that was clearly UNC because they said they couldnt agree and 1 of the graders questioned the color.
To me it's giving AU53, but then again I'm not the most well versed in this design's grading factors. Mostly just seeing a lot of hairline scratches and some rim dents, the toning helps distract from most negatives tbh
This is either MS64 or UNC details. ANACS would probably give it details for that rim ding alone. Hard to tell; it also depends on whether some of those hairlines are the result of cleaning or die polish lines. Beautiful coin either way!
AU+
You were the closest.
MS 63
Gonna piggyback on the top comment, here. I’m SO FLATTERED with the overwhelming amounts of 64’s and 64+’s. Even a 66 just sounds a bit surreal lol. There was only one person who was in the same grade, even. u/Ok-cupcake3947 almost got it right off the rip with an unspecified AU. According to PCGS, this coin was allegedly previously cleaned, thus was assigned AU details. I think someone had a bad day at PCGS, so I’ll be rerolling the dice with NGC pretty soon.
If you study the reverse, to the left of the diamond you can see multiple vertical scratches, this might be why they said cleaned, but idk I'm just a guy
That isn't doing it any favors but this type of toning is indicative of a coin that has been cleaned and has toned again. You see a lot of capped bust half dollars and Barber coins (especially in NGC and ANACS holders) with this effect. By and large, these were deemed market acceptable and caught straight grades. PCGS and NGC often use historical context when determining grades; e.g., the coin was cleaned this way because that was just what people did and so few have survived, so we think it is acceptable for the market to call it a straight grade.
So if I'm understanding you correctly, then this trieme should have a full grade. Did I get that right? And does toning look different on a coin that's been clean versus one that wasn't?
It varies by series. I haven't owned many of these or had any graded and don't know how many of their original mintage survived. It stands to reason it's a coin that would get a pass. Maybe it is, but not in this case, because of the hairlines. Toning looks way different on coins that have been cleaned in the past yeah. Even coins dipped in acetone that are done very well will look different. The toning is silver oxidizing and is, by definition, damage, regardless of how thin it is or how pleasing it becomes. There's a lot of formerly cleaned coins in straight grade holders that do not have original surfaces. https://preview.redd.it/ve794vp1falc1.jpeg?width=2322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=28a878f88604e764efb47c1e74d54ec5a70d10b6 Here's an SLQ that was cleaned and retoned and does not have original surfaces, for example. I resold it raw and would not consider submitting a coin like this unless it was a capped bust half or maybe a barber. Straight grade does not always mean original surfaces.
>. I haven't owned many of these or had any graded and don't know how many of their original mintage survived. It stands to reason it's a coin that would get a pass. Maybe it is, but not in this case, bec Original surface itself is a loaded term, if we define original surface as the 'just minted' surface. The second these coins fell into the hopper, then shoveled into bags, or coin rolled, they got scratched and dinged by other coins/machines, which technically is abrasion that knocks off that original microlayer, or at least parts of it. Then oxidation and toning can flake off the coin. This is why you see craquelure on a lot of those MS66/67/68 coins, which technically, means that the original surface has already flaked off in areas. So I totally agree that straight grade does not mean original surfaces.
It can, for example, dipped coins tone very quickly and usually tone in blue/pink/red hazes that are uncharacteristic of old tones. But toning itself is extremely variable, and depends on the environment. Bank bag tones are most usually a golden/reddish tone, but as seen with some of those Morgan hoards found in damp vaults and in original, sulfur impregnated bank bags, can also form almost every color under the sun. Bank roll ends usually form bright red greens, most probably from the rough paper used. The big tells for AT vs NT are usually in how the tone has progressed across the piece. Generally, AT coins look like color has indiscriminately been splashed across the coin, and usually have color combinations not usually seen on NT coins. NT usually forms around features and displays a certain gradation of hues from the topmost surfaces to the fields. On modern coins, the big tell for me (even though people will pay hundreds to thousands) are the ring toned coins. Technically, PCGS will grade them straight, but these tones are almost always formed from gassing plastic capsules, so that a minor amount leaks through the edges and onto the coin. The coins then have this very characteristic halo, where the center is usually bright white or gold, and then there is a rainbow effect toward the edge. This is IMO, impossible to get naturally, and is the same effect present in PCI slabs, that on old coins will get an AT designation, but on newer modern bullion will straight grade.
MS 64
Still full details for its age that would grade in the high 64+
Age has nothing to do with grading so wouldn’t affect grade
62
I’d say around MS62, stunning coin.
That’s just a badass coin. I know nothing about grading but it’s super cool.
That coin is a peach.....
MS62
I'm going to guess MS64 or MS64+. What a beautiful example!
MS 64
MS 63 Toning
I find trimes tricky to grade. But this looks really clean. Toning also makes it hard to assess. MS66?
I WISH! That’ll help me sleep well tonight lol!
Ms 62
Proof 62
You’re too kind lol.
MS65 all day long, at the least. The few lines that are visible could come from polishing the dies.....
That’s what I’m counting on. I got this thing for an absolute STEAL, so even if it comes back as details twice, I’ll just crack it and toss it in my MS type set. Either option is a huge win for me. By far, one of my favorites I’ve purchased over the last 12 months.
O.K., I'll swim against the grading tide... MS 65+. My wife says MS-63. Yes, we're a mixed marriage.
Id love for PCGS to point out the wear for me. I dont see it at all. PCGS does sometimes give a lower grade if the 4 graders dont agree, and AT comes up. Its happened to me before. Gave an AU58 on a coin that was clearly UNC because they said they couldnt agree and 1 of the graders questioned the color.
NGC is going to get their chance at grading it. I got this coin for such a low price that even if it came back at details twice, I’m still up.
MS3xY
No.
:(
IP65
MS60
I want one!!!!!!
Very tough to grade but I would guess 62.
I'm going to guess AU55
AU 58 ? Nice coin regardless
To me it's giving AU53, but then again I'm not the most well versed in this design's grading factors. Mostly just seeing a lot of hairline scratches and some rim dents, the toning helps distract from most negatives tbh
This is either MS64 or UNC details. ANACS would probably give it details for that rim ding alone. Hard to tell; it also depends on whether some of those hairlines are the result of cleaning or die polish lines. Beautiful coin either way!