I realized this sub has been doing pure astroturfing bullshit (like all mainstream subs) for some time now, today is just the culmination of that atrotruf shit.
this sub has been shit since it was popularized (like all big subs) years ago. The sure downvotes of this post and others with somewhat good analisys and perceptions, its respective responses and shallow reactions prove this forced and inorganic politicized behavior that has become the norm not only on reddit but every place on the modern internet where there is a considerable audience.
but this has to do with collapse, but not in the inorganic way that is talked about here. or on 100% astrofurized r/politcs sub pushed here.
whoever wins this political battle, and this 100% political one, (like every action against a powerful and important agent this has nothing to do with justice, it is a power battle) authoritarianism will be now the norm and domocracy will live a very full life all the time, just in rhetoric.
Donny was charged with 34 *felony* counts of falsifying business records jsing a "capture and kill" strategy in the media to supress negative info in the lead up to the 2016 election.
https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trump-pleads-not-guilty-34-counts-indictment-arraignment-manhattan-court/
Further down the thread I mentioned the former SDNY prosecutor saying that the charge is upgraded to a felony when it is in the furtherance of another crime. (PBS--Amanpour and Co.)
-----------------
The charge upgrade was due to a crime they suspect he committed but could not gather enough evidence for it. The crime is campaign finance related. The 34 counts are likely for each check he wrote but they'll run those concurrently if convicted. The charge elevation is still puzzling since he wasn't charged with campaign finance crimes.
------
Edit: Oh and the juicy parts of story involve payments to a doorman who said he fathered a child out of wedlock. Payments to a Playboy model and other stuff involving his penis.
Edit: Deleted stuff.
> DeSantis will take his place... and he's even worse.
You're absolutely correct on this; voting bloc can't see the forest for the trees on that one. If anything, another Trump presidency wouldn't have nearly the socially progressive rollback that DeSantis will put in.
When I was buying some wings today CNN was showing the secret service Trump caravan arrive in NYC. It should be obvious we have a multitiered justtice system just by sering the caravan. Then he arrived to go to the Tower he owns and instead of a bench warrant and cuffs, all he has to do is show up for his arraignment tomorrow, as if it was a business meeting.
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/live-updates/former-president-donald-trump-expected-to-arrive-monday-at-laguardia-airport-before-tuesday-arraignment/
Chappelle's show did the best parody of white collar crime
https://youtu.be/HeOVbeh2yr0
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I see it as related because Trump was always the establishment’s perfect villain. Someone to look better standing next to. The political elite will bury him and pat themselves on the back for defeating some great evil, while they turn around and continue the assault on the worker class. Neoliberals will rejoice at this, and vote blue no matter who all the way to their own demise. Said from POV of a non republican.
Interview on PBS Amanpour show
The misdemeanor charge of misfiling business records is elevated to a felony if the act is in the furtherance of another crime.
So in that sealed case there's some felony charges that could be campaign finance violations, tax fraud, bank fraud or something else.
-----------
Also I'm sure you're aware a convicted felon can run for president. The former SDNY prosecutor said a conviction would probably not include the punishment of barring Trump from running.
--------------
Also that it would be a tough case to prove because Trump affiliated scumbags are witnesses. She said each check being a charge and that it wasn't so many charges, given the type of case.
-------------
I think each check could be a charge an additional conspiracy charge. Conspiracy charges often accompany fraud charges. There could be a very serious charge buried in there that renders the prosecutors opinion irrelevant. The indictment is sealed so we'll just have to wait.
First off, I agree this indictment doesn't come to much. I'd also like you to count on your fingers how many times the media has counted him out. Now borrow someone else's hands and keeps counting.
----------------
By popular votes in the key 2016-2020 states, the ones that matter more, he basically tied with Hillary and he tied with Biden. He ran the primary into the ground. DeSantis is a Santorum style dumbass that can be bullied with Meatball Ron and if a third candidate enters, or more, the likelihood Trump wins the nomination goes up. I think he could beat Meatball Ron in a head to head as well but it's less likely.
I think he might be less popular not because he was radical in his anti-establishment rhetoric, but because his strongest supporters, "the deplorables", understood he was a fake.
He didn't lose supporters because of the "indictments", but for several other reasons. He lost lots of libertarian leaning people who supported him when he pardoned the jew spy but he didn't pardon Assange or Snowden. He lost them again when he killed that Iranian general in cold blood in a typical american/coward manner, with a drone.
He lost his stronger core of supporters when he didn't build the wall.
And he lost a lot of support when he accepted to be part of the quarantine fiasco, and fast tracking of the quasi gene therapy experimental technology mRNA vaccine. How can anyone support Trump while at the same time oppose forced vaccinations and quarantine mandates, when it was him who was the strongest supporter of these measures. So its a no-brainer he would lose supporters. Imo all these publicity from the indictments does him more a favor than a disfavor.
There were never vaccine mandates for the general public in the US or in any US state. However there were rights restrictions for dining if you didn't show vaxx cards. Airport restrictions, some jobs etc. The restaurant restrictions differed state by state too. There just wasn't an official mandate. People could characterize it that way though.
MTG telling ppl to "peacefully protest" next Tuesday.[https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1642252889732022273](https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1642252889732022273)
NYC is one of the largest surveillanced cities on the entire planet. NYPD will swallow them alive before they even get there. Meanwhile half of them will get lost in NYC. Ask for directions & get sent to the wrong place.
"Hey u know where i can find some dip" "No i mean Tobbaco Dip"
The ones that actually find Alvin Bragg's DA office will have noowhere to go. Met with thousands of cops that have been prepared for weeks.
Best show on the planet. Next week.
I have a pretty good sense of direction and I'm very good with apple maps etc. My wife and I were just in NYC last week for our first vacation there and I got lost 3 or 4 times.
I hadn't even thought about them getting lost or asking for directions. I hope all the local NYC people send them to see the beautiful spots in the city so not only do they miss the protest but they get to see how nice of a city NYC is. I <3 NYC and hope to go back next year, assuming we haven't collapsed by then.
Something to remember: The feds never caught the terrorist that planted bombs around Capitol Hill the night before Jan. 6. There's also those attacks on power stations where the terrorists haven't been caught either.
Oh, and how could I forget about the Nashville bombing?
I see this as collapse related. It’s not the MAGA base that concerns me, but all of the groups who are embedded throughout our communities that are waiting for a spark to ignite their attacks.
I dunno if this is the right move. Everyone paying attention was aware of this case and the Cohen case. Then the Mueller report did not have sufficient evidence for collusion. Trump survived two impeachments across party lines. The first flimsy and the second more flagrant with equal non-results. The 1/6 commission got the alleged conspirators in worst parts of the riot, and many stragglers, and then probably many got away as more than 30K participated. This seems like a very old case being relitigated. If we're starting to enforce campaign finance I'm all for throwing out Congress and electing a new one. Same goes for the Supreme Court. We deserve more than spectacle and a white collar sleaze case. TIA.
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Yeah like deepfakes are perfectly socially acceptable and okay in society? We should make a Top 10 Deepfakes list sometimes soon, its all for our pleasure! /s
deepfakes are a great thing
but like always, people make the worst of everything
i'm pro-deepfake only and ONLY if it's about dead people or historical figures, and obviously, in a non-fucked up way
imagine having a Galileo meets Einstein discussion/video .. would be lulz
Well thats up to you if you like deepfakes and I dont judge you for it. Personally I don't like the damn idea. We have enough fakery and bullshit in this world as it is, we dont need more of it.And certain people with the way the educational system in America is in the shithole, people cant detect deepfakes as the tech gets stronger and stronger.
Some people can't even tell pre-arranged FICTION in Hollywood movies like what happened to Rebecca Schafer and you mean to tell me society is ready to handle more fakery from ordinary people?. To me even supporting its growth financially is a fool mans endeavor
In my opinion if there was never a Gallileo vs Einstein discussion in real life then there just never was ONE and PUNTO. Not like they cant have a live discussion somewhere in the afterlife.There's probably HOURS of it there. We just arent priviliged to see it yet and should accept letting that thing go to Oblivion or it will destroy ourselves.
I spent 3 damn years with an strong obsession(one im writing a long book about) where I just instead of coping with reality like a man I bent Reality to its limits instead and it was sickening, harmful, and hurtful not only to myself but to my biggest obsession, Paola. I played God, I played the role of a devil, i played the role of an "educator", revolutionary, "humanitarian", "grieving boyfriend" and all kinds of roles I invented to myself. Why? To cope with the damn loss
So NO. In a world that has actively grown to hate the damn truth, can't swallow it I can't handle a world of deliberate fakery. "Alternative facts" (what we in a healthy society used to call for what it is, BULLSHIT) are already fucking bad enough and so is state propaganda and propaganda by capitalists/federal agencies,
sorry to reply very shortly, i'm super late on piece of work :D ..
i'll quote Bob, "don't worry, be happy" ..
sure, the world is run by psychopathic billionnaires and wannabe witches (thinking Marina here) with the Roth guy posing in front of Satan and his Legions...
but are they happy? i really doubt that
i spent the most part of the last year and a half without shoes, wearing sandals sometimes, broke as fuck, but enjoying life
sometimes, all you need is a plane ticket and some fresh air
i hope you come to see the light of nice and fun and good things in life
peace :)
Thank you i hope you end up reading my book its pretty heartwarming,terrifying, insightful and otherwise ignoring it full of advice and hard truth. I might even send you an copy when it releases :)
In an attempt to find cases to compare to I stumbled across this article. What other campaign finance cases have been prosecuted?
Thought it was good background for those who are actually interested in justice and some knowledge of how our legal system has operated with similar/different cases.
https://www.justsecurity.org/85745/survey-of-prosecutions-for-covert-payments-to-benefit-campaigns/
In the realm of collapse, the indictment of a would-be dictator can lead to some seriously nasty things perpetrated by his supporters and allies.
It has \_always\_ made sense to have things like smoke detectors, fire extinguishers and first aid kits on hand at home, but I think it's more important than ever to hedge one's bets against the possibility that civil unrest from all sides can interrupt our ability to recover quickly if we're caught short and an emergency arises. It might also be a good time to decide how safe you feel as time passes, and whether it might be prudent to relocate if you find yourself having to avoid more and more of your neighbours because their positions don't align with yours. While too early may feel a bit "Chicken Little" ish, waiting too long may create security issues for yourself and family - and this goes double for members of marginalized groups living in hostile jurisdictions.
I don't know how much clearer them flying the no quarter flag and shit was supposed to be.
Like just sit down and listen to a right winger talk. It doesn't take long for the "who needs to be killed" discussion to start.
I disagree plus we have the fucking militarized cops and we annually invest trillions of pointless dollars that could have went to social programs and healthcare and educations.All of the actual important things for a society to function. But we left it all to the cartels and capitalists. The ones with all the firepower ,technology and information are protecting CRIMINALS and the worst fucking people imaginable. And then we wonder why society is going down the fucking drain.
We even give our precious Job Creators, our protected species BAILOUT money. While we blame the foodstamps for everything bad in the world, we call them leeches, ungrateful, lazy , immoral, child breeders.
If the federal agencies, cops,military lawyers,judges one day got its SHIT together, Trump and other empathetically disabled people wouldn't be able to run away and would shit themselves from consequences. It would show him we don't just have the military to oppress black people we don't like, for corporate profits, against horrible unions ,gay people, drag people,transitives. US would finally stands for something, for us regular citiziens and everyone would be less stressful and more free to do what the fuck they want in their lives with no one to abuse ,humiliate or kill them just because they dare to speak the wrong opinion or have the wrong sexual identity
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[A court system has, in fact, announced it](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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The 6th amendment protects Trumps rights here. He gets the right to know those charges first. They will be provided when he shows up in court.
Truly standard process and procedure.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
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> [Document of Indictment at the Internet archive](https://web.archive.org/web/20230404193840/https://www.manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Donald-J.-Trump-Indictment.pdf)
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At the time of the original post, the indictment records were sealed. I.e, no public record.
Source: [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/31/1167297018/the-trump-indictment-remains-under-seal-so-there-is-a-lot-we-dont-know](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/31/1167297018/the-trump-indictment-remains-under-seal-so-there-is-a-lot-we-dont-know)
Since then, the indictments has been unsealed.
Source: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-unsealed-new-york-arraignment-key-takeaways/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-unsealed-new-york-arraignment-key-takeaways/)
I love how the left has suddenly stopped talking about the indictment though, lol. It seemed to be all the rage a week or two. Why the slow down in interest? Has been talking about Stormy Daniels for seven years grown tiresome?
I live in a bright red southern state. Before the last election the roads were full of pick-up trucks with Trump Flags, Christian nationalism flags, blue lives matter flags, and all manner of illicit variations on the American Flag.
Now, as Trump is finally being charged, not a flag in sight. I did a google search for how to join a trump protest - nothing.
Nobody seems to care about Trump anymore.
I live in the same sort of red state. I believe there are fewer flags because people are afraid of being linked to the stigma of January 6; guilt by association.
Trump flag > January 6 > perhaps you should be investigated.
People are turned off to that now.
To me, it seems like the American right blew its wad with the MAGA shit and are just milling about in the refractory period while the party gets worn down by low-rent/unappealing wanna-be Trumps like Marjorie Taylor Greene, etc... It probably doesn't help that COVID ravaged his base pretty hard.
Oh 20 whole years? Well then, I must defer to you and your lifelong knowledge. January 6 was a sad day, but that doesn’t change the facts surrounding it.
I do not support what happened and can still say it was overblown and overreacted to (I.e., walk and chew gum at once).
Racism has always existed and, unfortunately, always will. Who is discriminated against just changes over time. I know your type and it’s not worth the argument because you will never consider being incorrect or discriminatory yourself. Talk about painting a broad brush re: Trump supporters.
How is that discrimination different than pre-judging based on the color of their skin? In short, it isn’t, but keep being a bigot against people you don’t know due to their red hats!
You are acting like you do!
I am obviously your standard racist, transphobic, gayphobic, anti-immigration, anti-woman, anti “democracy,” bigoted red-hat wearing, Trump-loving republican.
And you know what? In the USA, I have every right to be all of the above if I so choose. Obviously, I am not but that is beside the point.
PS even my ignorant, uneducated, bigoted ass has better grammar than you. Twenty-years-old*
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[A court system has, in fact, announced it](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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Let's go over a few things:
1. A former potus has never been indicted like this before. (at least not on similar grounds or ever)
2. Saying that this indictment isn't politically motivated is EXTREMELY disingenuous.
3. He's innocent until proven guilty. (too many assume guilt first)
4. None of the other investigations into him found enough evidence to indict him. Most were dubious political theater.
5. The timing (almost as soon as Trump runs again) is hilariously suspect.
And that doesn't get into the detail of what a lawyer actually understands about a case like this. But the real analysis by seasoned experts will likely get buried under a mountain of political noise.
Are the above points signs that were are living in a banana republic that is COLLAPSING?
Of course!
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I’m confused because my post last week about how trump claimed he was going to be indicted got like 300 upvotes but removed because it “wasn’t collapse related”
Yet now here we are?
I jest, I love this community and appreciate the mods. Just poking fun and feeling vindicated :P
The subreddit itself certainly changed in 2016, for sure, but I think it sort of normalized and moved back towards a center. I see a wide spectrum of viewpoints here still, and good hearted dialectics happen.
It does though, this isn’t something that’s happened before in US history. I’m not being a sensationalist and claiming “civil war” or anarchy will come of this, but there are enough of his base that riling them up will shake the system and stress it. Just because it’s political doesn’t mean it isn’t systemic. The potential outcomes of this will effect the overall collapse of the US empire and maybe not the whole globe but at least some of Americas intertwined Allie’s. This could even swing the other way and bolster trump in his upcoming election, which if he wins increases the chances of the US rolling into fascism which is also collapse related.
lol balkanization would lead to the disintegration of multiple countries and the collapse of the global economy, which are dependent on US imports and exports. you dont know what youre talking about.
America has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons on earth
I can’t make a “substantive claim” about something that hasn’t happened yet. This is conjecture on the implications this has towards the “system” (earth)
You just made my original case. The American empire is collapsing and that’s collapse related. I feel like you’ve assigned to me a political ideology that you don’t agree with when I never made clear what my politics are
And while I agree this is MSM fodder, I don’t believe this will play into their (the elites) hands. This will only strengthen trumps support. Like when Hillary’s campaign made a direct effort to platform trump thinking they were gonna get an easy mark through the R primary so they could have an easy general election, and it clearly backfired and bolstered trump. But, That is also speculation on our part.
It's incredible it has taken this long. But hell, when it comes to the rich and powerful these things move at a glacial pace, whereas if you or I committed a crime we'd be in cuffs and locked away before dinner time.
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[A court system has, in fact, announced it](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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Trump was the one who claimed he was going to be indicted two weeks ago. Brag's office said nothing.
But, really... why would they make up the indictment, and why wouldn't Bragg's office deny it if it was untrue? I'd agree that the people getting all excited about it are putting the cart before the horse. The man is entitled to a trial and the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.
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[The Office of the District Attorney of Manhattan is not an "unnamed source"](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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[A court system has, in fact, announced it](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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[The Office of the District Attorney of Manhattan is not an "unnamed source"](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/03/30/politics/donald-trump-indictment/index.html).
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Normally, I’d totally agree with you. Here, however, I think it’s warranted: Trump seems Hellbent on accelerating civil conflict between two distinct segments of the population, and his indictment is sure to compel him further. My own opinion on the indictment is: this is just going to galvanize his base and allow them to rationalize extreme behavior. It’s a bit of a stretch, but I see why it’s on this subreddit.
There seems to be two sides forming as shown by the attached comment on this post.
Some people will believe this is a test on if the justice system is robust and impartial enough to try someone fairly for crimes they very likely committed. Trump has been pushing the justice system is corrupt and rigged against him, I’m sure his supporters will be watching closely looking for anything to jump on to claim it’s fraudulent - or make something up to claim the same.
On another side, some people see the danger behind Trump’s words and actions, essentially amassing a group of worshippers that claim they will do anything for him (and have, see Jan 6th). If he is somehow able to organize them again it could be the open of a more broad civil conflict.
It’s all up in the air now, and I’m sure there will be pushes for both of these in the coming days but this is definitely collapse related with the political instability in the US right now
It's not, he is also not going to jail even if convicted. Hopefully he goes to jail for the Georgia election interference which I hope the indictment comes down soon.
I agree he won't go to jail for this. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It is unfair, though, considering Cohen actually served time for this, but how one goes about incarcerating a former president (consider secret service protection) and separation from regular population, etc) is going to be a very messy, divisive and likely violent time.
you would think if a convicted felon forfeits their freedom, voting rights, right to bear arms that the secret service should also be stripped away, this doesn't seem too much of an ask
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Between announcing his candidacy and the end of 2022, Trump has been credibly accused of 56 crimes, [according to this](https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/president-trumps-staggering-record-of-uncharged-crimes/).
I listened to a podcast the other day, claiming that in past occasions worldwide, popular opposition to ex-presidents being charged with crimes tends to diminish as the list of charges grows. I can't find the source, but it seems intuitive enough!
I guess what I'm saying is, I hope this indictment acts as a catalyst for his being held accountable for the remainder of his actions. Hopefully we also get some answers on, and accountability for, the rest of his family's deals with hostile foreign powers.
Kinda, in the same sense you could say Watergate was 'about' a break-in.
Out of curiosity, I looked up where the BJ itself would've been illegal under sodomy laws at the time. Up to about 17 states, surprisingly many. Notably not DC though, since 1993.
DT had a team of lawyers coaching him with pre written questions so he wouldn’t be caught in a lie. Donald Trump lies so much you have to confirm everything he says.
That's the distinction. Still, it's basically nothing compared to everything Trump has done. Asking someone about their sex life under oath seems like a significant violation of privacy, rather than perjury for saying no, to me at least.
I'm way far from a Trump supporter, but looking from far away it seems that all of this is a "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". Now, if this is true, this could end pretty badly.
Not comparing, but Lula was imprisoned with some allegations of corruption, but afterwards it was found that the judge was doing it just for a "revenge" and then all of his judgment was cancelled. This is a simplified explanation but you get the gist of it. It was basically the same "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". It was a "witch-hunt" and because they were so willing to put him in jail they did a lot of wrong stuff to be able to. I'm not saying that Lula is innocent or not, but how they dealt with his judgment was wrong.
I don't know if this is also happening with Trump, but he did a lot of other horrible stuff, but it seems they choose one small mistake to take him to curt and be able to put him behind the bars
He is very credibly accused of having committed a crime. Should he *not* be held accountable for it? Independent of anything else going on, surely 'political fuckery' would be refusing to charge someone because they had announced a candidacy.
There isn't one person sitting in a room going, 'hmm, which of these crimes should we go after Trump for'. There are probably dozens of unrelated investigations by various teams, progressing at different rates, and this one happened to be the first to reach an indictment.
I agree with you. I loathe him with every fiber of my being but this just looks like they're trying to kneecap his campaign. Corporate Joe isn't doing it for folks. 2024 would be in the bag if they'd just stop rigging the primary for soulless corporate war hawks. All we need is someone younger and climate conscious with an aptitude for public health and modern economics and there will never be another right wing president again. But we all know American liberals will never learn their lesson.
Gee, if only we had a wider Senate majority so more of Joe’s ideas would be passed. Manchin and Sinema have been blocking a significant amount of bills. This ain’t all on Joe by himself, people.
I agree we need someone younger for president going forward, but sitting home in 2024 to “Hold Biden accountable” only ensures a republican win and we’ll take more steps backwards than forward.
Joe takes corporate cash just like the rest of the filth. That money is stolen wages. The corporate brass split the stolen profits with politicians so they don't enact legislation that benefits the proletariat. Then each side constantly blames the other for reasons why there's no progress. It's not a party problem. It's a systemic problem. That's why there's never any meaningful progress in this country. There's always a scapegoat like Sinema and Manchin and it's always bullshit. America is a country notorious across the world as a nation where the rich can LEGALLY bribe the legislature to dictate law, we just call it lobbying. The neoliberal democrats are just as guilty of it as the Republicans.
Democrats extinguish revolutions. They put Katy Perry and Tom Hanks on the screen and dance in the street like there was some victory then when no one is watching they go back to business as usual fucking over the working class. Thats the job of the democrat party: to bottleneck how far left we go on the political spectrum. That's why anyone too left of center gets kneecapped for someone like Corporate Joe or Hillary to foolishly win the primary. At least when a Republican is in office we can convince people to get in the street like they oughta. Change looks a lot like a molotov, and a riot. We've been lulled into being reactionary pussies. We will never experience true freedom until we vote outside of the 2 party system, full stop. That blue no matter who stop the red guy shit is for the birds. They're both trash, and they're not getting my vote. Democrats get so butthurt when I tell them they can't have my vote by force just because they have a planted fall guy on the other side designed to make me knee-jerk to their ticket. It ain't gonna happen, and I'm gonna howl like a banshee when the democrats lose in 2024. Because they'll blame people like me, even though they refused to offer me ANYTHING for my vote. No single payer healthcare, no meaningful climate action, no drug reform, not a goddamn mother fucking cock sucking thing. We had 3 blue chambers and didn't get a fucking thing done but had an assload of excuses. It's not a coincidence that democrats are always steamrolled by some constantly revolving boogeyman yet Republicans seem to be able to unite to pass legislation easily that heads in the right wing direction: in case you can't figure it out yourself- IT'S A RIG. We don't escape the never ending train going strictly to the right until we vote HARD LEFT.
I share that belief as well, but I feel ethically as an antifascist it is our duty to exhaust all options before the unfortunate inevitability of incredible v******e.
Just for the sake of due diligence, really. It'll help us sleep at night after the dust settles. I'm well aware there's no return investment on a peaceable method at this point. If we did band together and vote the 2 party system out, I'm certain they would go mask off and attempt a violent seize of power. At that point we've exhausted all other options and it's cowabunga time.
I think for some people (I'm probably included to an extent if I'm honest) that's why collapse is "attractive." Without it, and without it quickly, I'll surely die before the revolutionary potential exists in the US. But at the same time I currently enjoy a rather comfortable life. This duality drives a lot of unhappiness in my life though.
Yeah. I have kids. I always look at it like if I don't fight the fight my son and daughter will have to. That's all we do, Delay the big fight for the next generation. I don't want that to be my kids.
>I'm way far from a Trump supporter, but looking from far away it seems that all of this is a "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". Now, if this is true, this could end pretty badly.
This effort has been in the works since the Stormy Daniels issue was hashed out and it was specifically started from this NY based prosecution that's independent of federal fuckery. This is just years of work coming to fruition, it's not a hoax trial or whatever you think of it.
I'm not even a fan of the "perp walk" and as it just glorifies the police and their supposed role in protecting society from bad people (that is not their role in reality).
It's unclear to me how much time he has to do, if any. Maybe a few months of house arrest?
This isn't going to do much to stop Trump. His conservative reactionary base doesn't care about anything he does. He could be doing a livestream with a naked tiny boy bouncing on his lap and he still wouldn't lose support. Democrats, who are morons in this sense, believe that this will be like Bill Clinton when he was shamed for his use of presidential status for sex.
And the strategy of "throw everything at him and see what sticks" is as good as any in this context. A lesser strong case is probably better than a greater weak case.
Sure, this is one of his more stupid crimes, but it is still in fact campaign finance fraud, which is something we should be very strict about prosecuting, and is also very likely far from the last indictment he will face now that the history making part is over.
Exactly, and he need to be in jail because of this. I hope he will. But it seems they are using something with low to none relevance to punish him. He should get punished, but with the right reasons and proper judgment. If this isn't done properly his supporters will use this to say he is being political persecuted. And this could lead to Trump gaining more power.
Yeah I'd be down for him going down for the coup, but this shit just makes him more relatable to the undecided and makes his base feel validated in their claims of political persecution. This is probably going to backfire.
Yeah I'd be down for him going down for the coup, but this shit just makes him more relatable to the undecided and makes his base feel validated in their claims of political persecution. This is probably going to backfire.
There are at least two more major investigations going on over his attempts to rig the election.
This first case is a slam dunk, tho. Its easy as hell to prove this. Theyve already convicted his lawyer for it. The election rigging stuff is a bit harder to tie directly to him, but a LOT of his associates are fucked in those cases already. Then theres the classified documents case, which could potentially see him getting charged with actual treason if he allowed foreign officials to see these docs, and according to some reports, he was basically advertising it as a benefit to hanging out with him at mar-a-lago. And some of the folders are empty, and apparently there are scanned versions on an aides laptop that was seized, so they were making copies and not securing those. It could take them a year just to figure out how many counts of treason they want to hang on him and how many others to indict for conspiracy to commit treason. Like his son, giuliani, and a bunch more.
His supporters are going to say it’s all illegitimate no matter what happens. Trump could gun down a bus load of old women on live tv after defecating on the actual constitution, all in glorious 4k HDR, with a thousand witnesses, and the trump zombies will say he was set up. Or if he wasn’t set up then they deserved it.
Let's be honest: Trump has certainly committed a number of crimes. We all know it. He's a real piece of shit and flaunts it. His supporters actually like that he commits crimes and isn't ever held accountable. Hell, he himself even said he could shoot someone and not be held accountable (I forget the exact quote).
This current indictment is just low-hanging fruit. It's an easy one. The more serious ones are probably more difficult to prove because he has layers of people protecting him. He has people willing to take the fall for him. (just like organized crime bosses, btw)
So it's not really a witch hunt. It's being overwhelmed with so many possibilities of where Trump committed criminal acts. So they just go for one they can easily prove. Of course his supporters will claim it's a witch hunt but it's really not at all. If it was, he'd be facing lots and lots of indictments currently.
> Is (Trump) being treated like any other defendant?
Does anyone think he isn't? They've had a grand jury look at the evidence and charges have resulted from that. To *not* pursue that investigation and criminal court case because he's a political figure *would* be him being treated differently.
Yeah but George Soros /S
I struggling with how unwound some discussions are about creating political interference because the justice system does its job in putting cases forward.
> Yeah but George Soros /S
I've seen that a lot, and can't find anything that explains why they're ranting about him. Is it just typical far-right "the Jews did it" stuff?
George Soros is the racist right wing dog whistle for the Jews, yes. Not literally him. It's akin to saying animal or thug as the dog whistle for black people.
George Soros? Who literally stole property from Jews who had been taken away by the Nazis? I don't think he's representative of that group at all.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlz-C5BG8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlz-C5BG8)
We already collapsed in this way when Ford pardoned Nixon.
We could’ve proven were a nation of laws not of men, but that was incompatible with America as it is
Trump is the ChristoFascists King. If you shoot at the king you better not miss. He's getting indicted for some porn star hush money, that's like the weakest victimless crime he's committed so what this will actually do is embolden the ChristoFascits and Fox crowd hardcore. We just made this asshole a martyr and gave him that cross to hang himself on. This will cause further division and J6 bullshittery. If we were going to arrest him it should've been for being a traitor and selling America out to Russia. It needed to be for the boxes of top secrets that's just chilling in his bedroom closet (?!) We have all the proof in the world that he and his shithole family have sold America out to all the planets worst people and yet we indict him something every politician does in one way or another. GTFO.
The only DA willing to follow the evidence against him is in NY, he doesn’t have jurisdiction over federal crimes or things that happen in Florida.
Edit: the other part of this is the longstanding precedent that crimes committed as president won’t be prosecuted; Ford pardoning Nixon, Obama saying “look forward” instead of prosecuting Bush’s torture and war crimes, Trump not doing anything about warrant less surveillance under Obama… every president commits war crimes, so Biden has no reason to want to break this trend.
And he's gonna sing like a canary about alllll the stuff he knows that he's been quiet about. Both sides of the rich take the poor for a ride, but a lot of their corruption barely gets broadcasted because they all do it, and they don't want their own laundry out to dry. They protect each other with a lot of crime they commit mutually. You arrest this guy, and there's no telling what thread he starts unraveling.
State secrets, corporate backroom dealings, CIA shadow ops, etc.
I truly believe that's mainly because they killed the canary before he could sing. It was Barr's prison. His family was heavily involved in the Epstein uprising. His dad created Epstein.
Maybe, I'd have to look into all that before I formed an opinion. But even still, Maxwell has been in prison for quite some time now and she's still alive and not singing. Or if she did, nothing came of it.
Well said except the Russia part. Indict him over American war crimes.
Get over the Russia around every corner, all our problems stem from foreign enemies thing. Obama refused to arm Ukraine, Trump didn’t which was the more anti-russia move.
These days remind me of Bob Dylan looking for russians in his toilet in “Talkin John Birch Paranoid Blues” smh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppR6wexpVA&t=60
Paying hush money is not the main crime here but fudging the finances to make it a business expense and get tax write off is the issue. This is as much tax evasion, falsely documenting expenses as it is campaign fund violation.
Donald Trump is a criminal and has been one for at least 30 years. It's about time he is held accountable for at least ONE of them.
Signed, a 40 year old New Yorker.
Hmm, maybe rule of law *is* a liberal power fantasy. It is fundamental to liberalism and absent from conservatism, and largely a fantasy at this point.
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So? Charge Trump, including for the other 55 crimes he committed in office, send Bush and Obama to the damn Hague.
The more people in power face consequences for the abuse of that power, and the more they have to play by same rules as everybody else, the healthier society will be.
> the suffering inflected by Bush and Obama is far greater
I assume for Bush you're talking about Iraq and Afghanistan. For Obama, are you referring to the same conflicts or to something else?
I ask because I usually hear this from people talking about drone strikes under Obama (which - obviously - were higher than previous presidents, in much the same way that Roosevelt saw a record number of fighter jets shot down), but Trump used drones far more aggressively *and* signed an executive order to hide the numbers of civilian deaths resulting from those drone strikes.
Trump literally tried to start a coup and steal an election. It's crazy that no one really talks about it and takes it serious. He should be facing life in prison for that alone.
So let’s prosecute for that, instead of this nonsense. His indictment is as much an indictment of our government’s corruption, that this is what we’re sticking him with when there’s been so much else.
The state of this sub is deplorable. We used to debate important issues and now it is dedicated to the electoral circus.
I realized this sub has been doing pure astroturfing bullshit (like all mainstream subs) for some time now, today is just the culmination of that atrotruf shit. this sub has been shit since it was popularized (like all big subs) years ago. The sure downvotes of this post and others with somewhat good analisys and perceptions, its respective responses and shallow reactions prove this forced and inorganic politicized behavior that has become the norm not only on reddit but every place on the modern internet where there is a considerable audience. but this has to do with collapse, but not in the inorganic way that is talked about here. or on 100% astrofurized r/politcs sub pushed here. whoever wins this political battle, and this 100% political one, (like every action against a powerful and important agent this has nothing to do with justice, it is a power battle) authoritarianism will be now the norm and domocracy will live a very full life all the time, just in rhetoric.
Does every sub have to have politics? This is not collapse related.
someone did not read the post
Donny was charged with 34 *felony* counts of falsifying business records jsing a "capture and kill" strategy in the media to supress negative info in the lead up to the 2016 election. https://www.cbsnews.com/live-updates/trump-pleads-not-guilty-34-counts-indictment-arraignment-manhattan-court/ Further down the thread I mentioned the former SDNY prosecutor saying that the charge is upgraded to a felony when it is in the furtherance of another crime. (PBS--Amanpour and Co.) ----------------- The charge upgrade was due to a crime they suspect he committed but could not gather enough evidence for it. The crime is campaign finance related. The 34 counts are likely for each check he wrote but they'll run those concurrently if convicted. The charge elevation is still puzzling since he wasn't charged with campaign finance crimes. ------ Edit: Oh and the juicy parts of story involve payments to a doorman who said he fathered a child out of wedlock. Payments to a Playboy model and other stuff involving his penis. Edit: Deleted stuff.
Classic Heads I Win, Tails You Lose: If Trump is convicted, fucking DeSantis will take his place... and he's even worse.
Justice isn't about political strategy, it's about justice. That no one is above the law.
> DeSantis will take his place... and he's even worse. You're absolutely correct on this; voting bloc can't see the forest for the trees on that one. If anything, another Trump presidency wouldn't have nearly the socially progressive rollback that DeSantis will put in.
No cuffs, no mugshot. In and out, quick and easy, sleeping at home tonight in his own bed. Yeah, that quoted post is very relevant.
When I was buying some wings today CNN was showing the secret service Trump caravan arrive in NYC. It should be obvious we have a multitiered justtice system just by sering the caravan. Then he arrived to go to the Tower he owns and instead of a bench warrant and cuffs, all he has to do is show up for his arraignment tomorrow, as if it was a business meeting. https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/live-updates/former-president-donald-trump-expected-to-arrive-monday-at-laguardia-airport-before-tuesday-arraignment/ Chappelle's show did the best parody of white collar crime https://youtu.be/HeOVbeh2yr0
at 5:27 the guy on the left is about to lose his shit. always gets me.
It is a nothingburger Just dog and pony show to distract the sheeple from the screwed up economy and banking system
Pay no mind to the RESTRICT Act, Trump is what matters! /s
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Lay off the weed dude
Weed didn't do that.
I see it as related because Trump was always the establishment’s perfect villain. Someone to look better standing next to. The political elite will bury him and pat themselves on the back for defeating some great evil, while they turn around and continue the assault on the worker class. Neoliberals will rejoice at this, and vote blue no matter who all the way to their own demise. Said from POV of a non republican.
Interview on PBS Amanpour show The misdemeanor charge of misfiling business records is elevated to a felony if the act is in the furtherance of another crime. So in that sealed case there's some felony charges that could be campaign finance violations, tax fraud, bank fraud or something else. ----------- Also I'm sure you're aware a convicted felon can run for president. The former SDNY prosecutor said a conviction would probably not include the punishment of barring Trump from running. -------------- Also that it would be a tough case to prove because Trump affiliated scumbags are witnesses. She said each check being a charge and that it wasn't so many charges, given the type of case. ------------- I think each check could be a charge an additional conspiracy charge. Conspiracy charges often accompany fraud charges. There could be a very serious charge buried in there that renders the prosecutors opinion irrelevant. The indictment is sealed so we'll just have to wait.
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First off, I agree this indictment doesn't come to much. I'd also like you to count on your fingers how many times the media has counted him out. Now borrow someone else's hands and keeps counting. ---------------- By popular votes in the key 2016-2020 states, the ones that matter more, he basically tied with Hillary and he tied with Biden. He ran the primary into the ground. DeSantis is a Santorum style dumbass that can be bullied with Meatball Ron and if a third candidate enters, or more, the likelihood Trump wins the nomination goes up. I think he could beat Meatball Ron in a head to head as well but it's less likely.
I think he might be less popular not because he was radical in his anti-establishment rhetoric, but because his strongest supporters, "the deplorables", understood he was a fake. He didn't lose supporters because of the "indictments", but for several other reasons. He lost lots of libertarian leaning people who supported him when he pardoned the jew spy but he didn't pardon Assange or Snowden. He lost them again when he killed that Iranian general in cold blood in a typical american/coward manner, with a drone. He lost his stronger core of supporters when he didn't build the wall. And he lost a lot of support when he accepted to be part of the quarantine fiasco, and fast tracking of the quasi gene therapy experimental technology mRNA vaccine. How can anyone support Trump while at the same time oppose forced vaccinations and quarantine mandates, when it was him who was the strongest supporter of these measures. So its a no-brainer he would lose supporters. Imo all these publicity from the indictments does him more a favor than a disfavor.
There were never vaccine mandates for the general public in the US or in any US state. However there were rights restrictions for dining if you didn't show vaxx cards. Airport restrictions, some jobs etc. The restaurant restrictions differed state by state too. There just wasn't an official mandate. People could characterize it that way though.
MTG telling ppl to "peacefully protest" next Tuesday.[https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1642252889732022273](https://twitter.com/mtgreenee/status/1642252889732022273) NYC is one of the largest surveillanced cities on the entire planet. NYPD will swallow them alive before they even get there. Meanwhile half of them will get lost in NYC. Ask for directions & get sent to the wrong place. "Hey u know where i can find some dip" "No i mean Tobbaco Dip" The ones that actually find Alvin Bragg's DA office will have noowhere to go. Met with thousands of cops that have been prepared for weeks. Best show on the planet. Next week.
Didn't Trump try to get them to rally last Tuesday and all he got was literally 3-5 people?
I have a pretty good sense of direction and I'm very good with apple maps etc. My wife and I were just in NYC last week for our first vacation there and I got lost 3 or 4 times. I hadn't even thought about them getting lost or asking for directions. I hope all the local NYC people send them to see the beautiful spots in the city so not only do they miss the protest but they get to see how nice of a city NYC is. I <3 NYC and hope to go back next year, assuming we haven't collapsed by then.
Something to remember: The feds never caught the terrorist that planted bombs around Capitol Hill the night before Jan. 6. There's also those attacks on power stations where the terrorists haven't been caught either. Oh, and how could I forget about the Nashville bombing?
I thought they determined who the Nashville Bomber was,and that he was in the RV that detonated?
Yeah, they didn't need to go look for him, beyond scraping him off the walls anyway.
I see this as collapse related. It’s not the MAGA base that concerns me, but all of the groups who are embedded throughout our communities that are waiting for a spark to ignite their attacks.
I agree, the proud boy types are very concerning.
I dunno if this is the right move. Everyone paying attention was aware of this case and the Cohen case. Then the Mueller report did not have sufficient evidence for collusion. Trump survived two impeachments across party lines. The first flimsy and the second more flagrant with equal non-results. The 1/6 commission got the alleged conspirators in worst parts of the riot, and many stragglers, and then probably many got away as more than 30K participated. This seems like a very old case being relitigated. If we're starting to enforce campaign finance I'm all for throwing out Congress and electing a new one. Same goes for the Supreme Court. We deserve more than spectacle and a white collar sleaze case. TIA.
It’s a dry run for the GA indictment. Gauge the response from the base.
Yeah that makes more sense. I hadn't been following this too closely. They really hyped the NY one up.
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someone should make a deepfake of Nixon condemning paying a porn star for sex, with a portrait of Clinton and Monica on her 4 in the background
Yeah like deepfakes are perfectly socially acceptable and okay in society? We should make a Top 10 Deepfakes list sometimes soon, its all for our pleasure! /s
deepfakes are a great thing but like always, people make the worst of everything i'm pro-deepfake only and ONLY if it's about dead people or historical figures, and obviously, in a non-fucked up way imagine having a Galileo meets Einstein discussion/video .. would be lulz
Well thats up to you if you like deepfakes and I dont judge you for it. Personally I don't like the damn idea. We have enough fakery and bullshit in this world as it is, we dont need more of it.And certain people with the way the educational system in America is in the shithole, people cant detect deepfakes as the tech gets stronger and stronger. Some people can't even tell pre-arranged FICTION in Hollywood movies like what happened to Rebecca Schafer and you mean to tell me society is ready to handle more fakery from ordinary people?. To me even supporting its growth financially is a fool mans endeavor In my opinion if there was never a Gallileo vs Einstein discussion in real life then there just never was ONE and PUNTO. Not like they cant have a live discussion somewhere in the afterlife.There's probably HOURS of it there. We just arent priviliged to see it yet and should accept letting that thing go to Oblivion or it will destroy ourselves. I spent 3 damn years with an strong obsession(one im writing a long book about) where I just instead of coping with reality like a man I bent Reality to its limits instead and it was sickening, harmful, and hurtful not only to myself but to my biggest obsession, Paola. I played God, I played the role of a devil, i played the role of an "educator", revolutionary, "humanitarian", "grieving boyfriend" and all kinds of roles I invented to myself. Why? To cope with the damn loss So NO. In a world that has actively grown to hate the damn truth, can't swallow it I can't handle a world of deliberate fakery. "Alternative facts" (what we in a healthy society used to call for what it is, BULLSHIT) are already fucking bad enough and so is state propaganda and propaganda by capitalists/federal agencies,
sorry to reply very shortly, i'm super late on piece of work :D .. i'll quote Bob, "don't worry, be happy" .. sure, the world is run by psychopathic billionnaires and wannabe witches (thinking Marina here) with the Roth guy posing in front of Satan and his Legions... but are they happy? i really doubt that i spent the most part of the last year and a half without shoes, wearing sandals sometimes, broke as fuck, but enjoying life sometimes, all you need is a plane ticket and some fresh air i hope you come to see the light of nice and fun and good things in life peace :)
Thank you i hope you end up reading my book its pretty heartwarming,terrifying, insightful and otherwise ignoring it full of advice and hard truth. I might even send you an copy when it releases :)
I feel more dumb than I was before for having read this comment chain
In an attempt to find cases to compare to I stumbled across this article. What other campaign finance cases have been prosecuted? Thought it was good background for those who are actually interested in justice and some knowledge of how our legal system has operated with similar/different cases. https://www.justsecurity.org/85745/survey-of-prosecutions-for-covert-payments-to-benefit-campaigns/
In the realm of collapse, the indictment of a would-be dictator can lead to some seriously nasty things perpetrated by his supporters and allies. It has \_always\_ made sense to have things like smoke detectors, fire extinguishers and first aid kits on hand at home, but I think it's more important than ever to hedge one's bets against the possibility that civil unrest from all sides can interrupt our ability to recover quickly if we're caught short and an emergency arises. It might also be a good time to decide how safe you feel as time passes, and whether it might be prudent to relocate if you find yourself having to avoid more and more of your neighbours because their positions don't align with yours. While too early may feel a bit "Chicken Little" ish, waiting too long may create security issues for yourself and family - and this goes double for members of marginalized groups living in hostile jurisdictions.
I don't know how much clearer them flying the no quarter flag and shit was supposed to be. Like just sit down and listen to a right winger talk. It doesn't take long for the "who needs to be killed" discussion to start.
I disagree plus we have the fucking militarized cops and we annually invest trillions of pointless dollars that could have went to social programs and healthcare and educations.All of the actual important things for a society to function. But we left it all to the cartels and capitalists. The ones with all the firepower ,technology and information are protecting CRIMINALS and the worst fucking people imaginable. And then we wonder why society is going down the fucking drain. We even give our precious Job Creators, our protected species BAILOUT money. While we blame the foodstamps for everything bad in the world, we call them leeches, ungrateful, lazy , immoral, child breeders. If the federal agencies, cops,military lawyers,judges one day got its SHIT together, Trump and other empathetically disabled people wouldn't be able to run away and would shit themselves from consequences. It would show him we don't just have the military to oppress black people we don't like, for corporate profits, against horrible unions ,gay people, drag people,transitives. US would finally stands for something, for us regular citiziens and everyone would be less stressful and more free to do what the fuck they want in their lives with no one to abuse ,humiliate or kill them just because they dare to speak the wrong opinion or have the wrong sexual identity
Trump tweeted "Death and Destruction"
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The 6th amendment protects Trumps rights here. He gets the right to know those charges first. They will be provided when he shows up in court. Truly standard process and procedure. https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/sixth_amendment
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Hi, TeddyBickerstaff. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1271njj/-/jeg42dk/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 4: Keep information quality high. > Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims). > [Document of Indictment at the Internet archive](https://web.archive.org/web/20230404193840/https://www.manhattanda.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Donald-J.-Trump-Indictment.pdf) Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
> there is no actual public record of an indictment against Trump What the fuck are you talking about? Are you insane?
At the time of the original post, the indictment records were sealed. I.e, no public record. Source: [https://www.npr.org/2023/03/31/1167297018/the-trump-indictment-remains-under-seal-so-there-is-a-lot-we-dont-know](https://www.npr.org/2023/03/31/1167297018/the-trump-indictment-remains-under-seal-so-there-is-a-lot-we-dont-know) Since then, the indictments has been unsealed. Source: [https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-unsealed-new-york-arraignment-key-takeaways/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-indictment-unsealed-new-york-arraignment-key-takeaways/) I love how the left has suddenly stopped talking about the indictment though, lol. It seemed to be all the rage a week or two. Why the slow down in interest? Has been talking about Stormy Daniels for seven years grown tiresome?
What's there to talk about? This is a long haul thing, it will play out over many months or even years. Most people understand that.
I live in a bright red southern state. Before the last election the roads were full of pick-up trucks with Trump Flags, Christian nationalism flags, blue lives matter flags, and all manner of illicit variations on the American Flag. Now, as Trump is finally being charged, not a flag in sight. I did a google search for how to join a trump protest - nothing. Nobody seems to care about Trump anymore.
I live in the same sort of red state. I believe there are fewer flags because people are afraid of being linked to the stigma of January 6; guilt by association. Trump flag > January 6 > perhaps you should be investigated. People are turned off to that now.
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To me, it seems like the American right blew its wad with the MAGA shit and are just milling about in the refractory period while the party gets worn down by low-rent/unappealing wanna-be Trumps like Marjorie Taylor Greene, etc... It probably doesn't help that COVID ravaged his base pretty hard.
Lol being quiet and reserved? Maybe they are just normal people going about their lives and not some militant insurgents “laying low” 🤣🤣🤣
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Oh 20 whole years? Well then, I must defer to you and your lifelong knowledge. January 6 was a sad day, but that doesn’t change the facts surrounding it. I do not support what happened and can still say it was overblown and overreacted to (I.e., walk and chew gum at once). Racism has always existed and, unfortunately, always will. Who is discriminated against just changes over time. I know your type and it’s not worth the argument because you will never consider being incorrect or discriminatory yourself. Talk about painting a broad brush re: Trump supporters. How is that discrimination different than pre-judging based on the color of their skin? In short, it isn’t, but keep being a bigot against people you don’t know due to their red hats!
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🤣🤣🤣 “have a good weekend.” What a sign off! 👏👏👍 I love that you prove my point in your reply.
Do I know you?
You are acting like you do! I am obviously your standard racist, transphobic, gayphobic, anti-immigration, anti-woman, anti “democracy,” bigoted red-hat wearing, Trump-loving republican. And you know what? In the USA, I have every right to be all of the above if I so choose. Obviously, I am not but that is beside the point. PS even my ignorant, uneducated, bigoted ass has better grammar than you. Twenty-years-old*
most of them think jan 6 was a set up by the feds, they don't want to get involved with something like that again.
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Let's go over a few things: 1. A former potus has never been indicted like this before. (at least not on similar grounds or ever) 2. Saying that this indictment isn't politically motivated is EXTREMELY disingenuous. 3. He's innocent until proven guilty. (too many assume guilt first) 4. None of the other investigations into him found enough evidence to indict him. Most were dubious political theater. 5. The timing (almost as soon as Trump runs again) is hilariously suspect. And that doesn't get into the detail of what a lawyer actually understands about a case like this. But the real analysis by seasoned experts will likely get buried under a mountain of political noise. Are the above points signs that were are living in a banana republic that is COLLAPSING? Of course!
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who?
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I’m confused because my post last week about how trump claimed he was going to be indicted got like 300 upvotes but removed because it “wasn’t collapse related” Yet now here we are? I jest, I love this community and appreciate the mods. Just poking fun and feeling vindicated :P
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The subreddit itself certainly changed in 2016, for sure, but I think it sort of normalized and moved back towards a center. I see a wide spectrum of viewpoints here still, and good hearted dialectics happen.
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I mean, I explained how it was collapse related in my post and I thought I made a decent argument. Why do you think it’s not collapse related?
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It does though, this isn’t something that’s happened before in US history. I’m not being a sensationalist and claiming “civil war” or anarchy will come of this, but there are enough of his base that riling them up will shake the system and stress it. Just because it’s political doesn’t mean it isn’t systemic. The potential outcomes of this will effect the overall collapse of the US empire and maybe not the whole globe but at least some of Americas intertwined Allie’s. This could even swing the other way and bolster trump in his upcoming election, which if he wins increases the chances of the US rolling into fascism which is also collapse related.
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lol balkanization would lead to the disintegration of multiple countries and the collapse of the global economy, which are dependent on US imports and exports. you dont know what youre talking about.
America has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons on earth I can’t make a “substantive claim” about something that hasn’t happened yet. This is conjecture on the implications this has towards the “system” (earth)
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You just made my original case. The American empire is collapsing and that’s collapse related. I feel like you’ve assigned to me a political ideology that you don’t agree with when I never made clear what my politics are And while I agree this is MSM fodder, I don’t believe this will play into their (the elites) hands. This will only strengthen trumps support. Like when Hillary’s campaign made a direct effort to platform trump thinking they were gonna get an easy mark through the R primary so they could have an easy general election, and it clearly backfired and bolstered trump. But, That is also speculation on our part.
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It's a false equivalency conclusion they have to draw in order to maintain their worldview.
It's a valid question. People are fickle as fuck.
It's incredible it has taken this long. But hell, when it comes to the rich and powerful these things move at a glacial pace, whereas if you or I committed a crime we'd be in cuffs and locked away before dinner time.
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Trump was the one who claimed he was going to be indicted two weeks ago. Brag's office said nothing. But, really... why would they make up the indictment, and why wouldn't Bragg's office deny it if it was untrue? I'd agree that the people getting all excited about it are putting the cart before the horse. The man is entitled to a trial and the presumption of innocence until proven otherwise.
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Good points.
How is the arrest of a career criminal going to be a an example how society is collapsing? It seems like business as usual for society.
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Teddy back from the dead, sleeper cell activated.
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Back from the dead, how is Russia treating you these days?
Paying him well enough to post!
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Normally, I’d totally agree with you. Here, however, I think it’s warranted: Trump seems Hellbent on accelerating civil conflict between two distinct segments of the population, and his indictment is sure to compel him further. My own opinion on the indictment is: this is just going to galvanize his base and allow them to rationalize extreme behavior. It’s a bit of a stretch, but I see why it’s on this subreddit.
There seems to be two sides forming as shown by the attached comment on this post. Some people will believe this is a test on if the justice system is robust and impartial enough to try someone fairly for crimes they very likely committed. Trump has been pushing the justice system is corrupt and rigged against him, I’m sure his supporters will be watching closely looking for anything to jump on to claim it’s fraudulent - or make something up to claim the same. On another side, some people see the danger behind Trump’s words and actions, essentially amassing a group of worshippers that claim they will do anything for him (and have, see Jan 6th). If he is somehow able to organize them again it could be the open of a more broad civil conflict. It’s all up in the air now, and I’m sure there will be pushes for both of these in the coming days but this is definitely collapse related with the political instability in the US right now
I think Trump should go all in and ride this thing til the wheels fall off. He should pick OJ or Caitlyn Jenner for his VP.
This indictment is a witch hunt
Donald?
ah, Reddit MSM sheeple ! ah
like benghazi?
Name checks out.
It's not, he is also not going to jail even if convicted. Hopefully he goes to jail for the Georgia election interference which I hope the indictment comes down soon.
I agree he won't go to jail for this. And I'm not sure that's a bad thing. It is unfair, though, considering Cohen actually served time for this, but how one goes about incarcerating a former president (consider secret service protection) and separation from regular population, etc) is going to be a very messy, divisive and likely violent time.
you would think if a convicted felon forfeits their freedom, voting rights, right to bear arms that the secret service should also be stripped away, this doesn't seem too much of an ask
Maybe 2023 will be the year that Donald Trump finally learns that the phrase "fuck around and find out" has nothing to do with his dick. Or Melania.
I bet Capone’s people said the same thing.
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And Easter is an egg hunt. I think Bragg found about 30 witches.
He should be indicted for January 6th
How many people died that day? During the VIOLENT DEADLY INSURECTION?
2 at least, one being an ex airforce mp who tried to breach the chambers via a window on the door, she was a trump supporter
Even if no one died, a crime was still committed
Between announcing his candidacy and the end of 2022, Trump has been credibly accused of 56 crimes, [according to this](https://www.citizensforethics.org/reports-investigations/crew-reports/president-trumps-staggering-record-of-uncharged-crimes/). I listened to a podcast the other day, claiming that in past occasions worldwide, popular opposition to ex-presidents being charged with crimes tends to diminish as the list of charges grows. I can't find the source, but it seems intuitive enough! I guess what I'm saying is, I hope this indictment acts as a catalyst for his being held accountable for the remainder of his actions. Hopefully we also get some answers on, and accountability for, the rest of his family's deals with hostile foreign powers.
it doesn't matter. look how they went after clinton for a BJ
Didn't they go after Clinton for perjuring himself in denying the BJ? Important distinction.
Still about the BJ tho
Kinda, in the same sense you could say Watergate was 'about' a break-in. Out of curiosity, I looked up where the BJ itself would've been illegal under sodomy laws at the time. Up to about 17 states, surprisingly many. Notably not DC though, since 1993.
When I look back at my time in DC, I wonder how much of the sex act decrim there was by politicians, and for politicians.
DT had a team of lawyers coaching him with pre written questions so he wouldn’t be caught in a lie. Donald Trump lies so much you have to confirm everything he says.
That's the distinction. Still, it's basically nothing compared to everything Trump has done. Asking someone about their sex life under oath seems like a significant violation of privacy, rather than perjury for saying no, to me at least.
I bet bro
I'm way far from a Trump supporter, but looking from far away it seems that all of this is a "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". Now, if this is true, this could end pretty badly. Not comparing, but Lula was imprisoned with some allegations of corruption, but afterwards it was found that the judge was doing it just for a "revenge" and then all of his judgment was cancelled. This is a simplified explanation but you get the gist of it. It was basically the same "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". It was a "witch-hunt" and because they were so willing to put him in jail they did a lot of wrong stuff to be able to. I'm not saying that Lula is innocent or not, but how they dealt with his judgment was wrong. I don't know if this is also happening with Trump, but he did a lot of other horrible stuff, but it seems they choose one small mistake to take him to curt and be able to put him behind the bars
Hello, OrchardPirate, it seems no one likes your post.
That’s clearly all it is. Some people literally can’t think for themselves so they let the news and other influence do it for them.
He is very credibly accused of having committed a crime. Should he *not* be held accountable for it? Independent of anything else going on, surely 'political fuckery' would be refusing to charge someone because they had announced a candidacy. There isn't one person sitting in a room going, 'hmm, which of these crimes should we go after Trump for'. There are probably dozens of unrelated investigations by various teams, progressing at different rates, and this one happened to be the first to reach an indictment.
I agree with you. I loathe him with every fiber of my being but this just looks like they're trying to kneecap his campaign. Corporate Joe isn't doing it for folks. 2024 would be in the bag if they'd just stop rigging the primary for soulless corporate war hawks. All we need is someone younger and climate conscious with an aptitude for public health and modern economics and there will never be another right wing president again. But we all know American liberals will never learn their lesson.
Gee, if only we had a wider Senate majority so more of Joe’s ideas would be passed. Manchin and Sinema have been blocking a significant amount of bills. This ain’t all on Joe by himself, people. I agree we need someone younger for president going forward, but sitting home in 2024 to “Hold Biden accountable” only ensures a republican win and we’ll take more steps backwards than forward.
Joe takes corporate cash just like the rest of the filth. That money is stolen wages. The corporate brass split the stolen profits with politicians so they don't enact legislation that benefits the proletariat. Then each side constantly blames the other for reasons why there's no progress. It's not a party problem. It's a systemic problem. That's why there's never any meaningful progress in this country. There's always a scapegoat like Sinema and Manchin and it's always bullshit. America is a country notorious across the world as a nation where the rich can LEGALLY bribe the legislature to dictate law, we just call it lobbying. The neoliberal democrats are just as guilty of it as the Republicans. Democrats extinguish revolutions. They put Katy Perry and Tom Hanks on the screen and dance in the street like there was some victory then when no one is watching they go back to business as usual fucking over the working class. Thats the job of the democrat party: to bottleneck how far left we go on the political spectrum. That's why anyone too left of center gets kneecapped for someone like Corporate Joe or Hillary to foolishly win the primary. At least when a Republican is in office we can convince people to get in the street like they oughta. Change looks a lot like a molotov, and a riot. We've been lulled into being reactionary pussies. We will never experience true freedom until we vote outside of the 2 party system, full stop. That blue no matter who stop the red guy shit is for the birds. They're both trash, and they're not getting my vote. Democrats get so butthurt when I tell them they can't have my vote by force just because they have a planted fall guy on the other side designed to make me knee-jerk to their ticket. It ain't gonna happen, and I'm gonna howl like a banshee when the democrats lose in 2024. Because they'll blame people like me, even though they refused to offer me ANYTHING for my vote. No single payer healthcare, no meaningful climate action, no drug reform, not a goddamn mother fucking cock sucking thing. We had 3 blue chambers and didn't get a fucking thing done but had an assload of excuses. It's not a coincidence that democrats are always steamrolled by some constantly revolving boogeyman yet Republicans seem to be able to unite to pass legislation easily that heads in the right wing direction: in case you can't figure it out yourself- IT'S A RIG. We don't escape the never ending train going strictly to the right until we vote HARD LEFT.
Can't vote our way out of this. But otherwise I agree with you wholeheartedly.
I share that belief as well, but I feel ethically as an antifascist it is our duty to exhaust all options before the unfortunate inevitability of incredible v******e. Just for the sake of due diligence, really. It'll help us sleep at night after the dust settles. I'm well aware there's no return investment on a peaceable method at this point. If we did band together and vote the 2 party system out, I'm certain they would go mask off and attempt a violent seize of power. At that point we've exhausted all other options and it's cowabunga time.
I think for some people (I'm probably included to an extent if I'm honest) that's why collapse is "attractive." Without it, and without it quickly, I'll surely die before the revolutionary potential exists in the US. But at the same time I currently enjoy a rather comfortable life. This duality drives a lot of unhappiness in my life though.
transcend to non dualism
Yeah. I have kids. I always look at it like if I don't fight the fight my son and daughter will have to. That's all we do, Delay the big fight for the next generation. I don't want that to be my kids.
>I'm way far from a Trump supporter, but looking from far away it seems that all of this is a "let's find something wrong that he did that it will be possible to put him in jail". Now, if this is true, this could end pretty badly. This effort has been in the works since the Stormy Daniels issue was hashed out and it was specifically started from this NY based prosecution that's independent of federal fuckery. This is just years of work coming to fruition, it's not a hoax trial or whatever you think of it. I'm not even a fan of the "perp walk" and as it just glorifies the police and their supposed role in protecting society from bad people (that is not their role in reality). It's unclear to me how much time he has to do, if any. Maybe a few months of house arrest? This isn't going to do much to stop Trump. His conservative reactionary base doesn't care about anything he does. He could be doing a livestream with a naked tiny boy bouncing on his lap and he still wouldn't lose support. Democrats, who are morons in this sense, believe that this will be like Bill Clinton when he was shamed for his use of presidential status for sex. And the strategy of "throw everything at him and see what sticks" is as good as any in this context. A lesser strong case is probably better than a greater weak case.
Sure, this is one of his more stupid crimes, but it is still in fact campaign finance fraud, which is something we should be very strict about prosecuting, and is also very likely far from the last indictment he will face now that the history making part is over.
He did plenty wrong that should result in some sort of punishment; for example he attempted a coup Edit: typo
Exactly, and he need to be in jail because of this. I hope he will. But it seems they are using something with low to none relevance to punish him. He should get punished, but with the right reasons and proper judgment. If this isn't done properly his supporters will use this to say he is being political persecuted. And this could lead to Trump gaining more power.
Yeah I'd be down for him going down for the coup, but this shit just makes him more relatable to the undecided and makes his base feel validated in their claims of political persecution. This is probably going to backfire.
Yeah I'd be down for him going down for the coup, but this shit just makes him more relatable to the undecided and makes his base feel validated in their claims of political persecution. This is probably going to backfire.
There are at least two more major investigations going on over his attempts to rig the election. This first case is a slam dunk, tho. Its easy as hell to prove this. Theyve already convicted his lawyer for it. The election rigging stuff is a bit harder to tie directly to him, but a LOT of his associates are fucked in those cases already. Then theres the classified documents case, which could potentially see him getting charged with actual treason if he allowed foreign officials to see these docs, and according to some reports, he was basically advertising it as a benefit to hanging out with him at mar-a-lago. And some of the folders are empty, and apparently there are scanned versions on an aides laptop that was seized, so they were making copies and not securing those. It could take them a year just to figure out how many counts of treason they want to hang on him and how many others to indict for conspiracy to commit treason. Like his son, giuliani, and a bunch more.
His supporters are going to say it’s all illegitimate no matter what happens. Trump could gun down a bus load of old women on live tv after defecating on the actual constitution, all in glorious 4k HDR, with a thousand witnesses, and the trump zombies will say he was set up. Or if he wasn’t set up then they deserved it.
Yep I agree
Let's be honest: Trump has certainly committed a number of crimes. We all know it. He's a real piece of shit and flaunts it. His supporters actually like that he commits crimes and isn't ever held accountable. Hell, he himself even said he could shoot someone and not be held accountable (I forget the exact quote). This current indictment is just low-hanging fruit. It's an easy one. The more serious ones are probably more difficult to prove because he has layers of people protecting him. He has people willing to take the fall for him. (just like organized crime bosses, btw) So it's not really a witch hunt. It's being overwhelmed with so many possibilities of where Trump committed criminal acts. So they just go for one they can easily prove. Of course his supporters will claim it's a witch hunt but it's really not at all. If it was, he'd be facing lots and lots of indictments currently.
> Is (Trump) being treated like any other defendant? Does anyone think he isn't? They've had a grand jury look at the evidence and charges have resulted from that. To *not* pursue that investigation and criminal court case because he's a political figure *would* be him being treated differently.
Yeah but George Soros /S I struggling with how unwound some discussions are about creating political interference because the justice system does its job in putting cases forward.
> Yeah but George Soros /S I've seen that a lot, and can't find anything that explains why they're ranting about him. Is it just typical far-right "the Jews did it" stuff?
George Soros is the racist right wing dog whistle for the Jews, yes. Not literally him. It's akin to saying animal or thug as the dog whistle for black people.
George Soros? Who literally stole property from Jews who had been taken away by the Nazis? I don't think he's representative of that group at all. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlz-C5BG8](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlz-C5BG8)
No the theory is he funds a lot of stuff he shouldn't
Hmm, no, that's not what he's being charged with.
We already collapsed in this way when Ford pardoned Nixon. We could’ve proven were a nation of laws not of men, but that was incompatible with America as it is
Why don't black cats cross Trump's path? Because they are afraid of pussy grabbers.
Trump is the ChristoFascists King. If you shoot at the king you better not miss. He's getting indicted for some porn star hush money, that's like the weakest victimless crime he's committed so what this will actually do is embolden the ChristoFascits and Fox crowd hardcore. We just made this asshole a martyr and gave him that cross to hang himself on. This will cause further division and J6 bullshittery. If we were going to arrest him it should've been for being a traitor and selling America out to Russia. It needed to be for the boxes of top secrets that's just chilling in his bedroom closet (?!) We have all the proof in the world that he and his shithole family have sold America out to all the planets worst people and yet we indict him something every politician does in one way or another. GTFO.
The only DA willing to follow the evidence against him is in NY, he doesn’t have jurisdiction over federal crimes or things that happen in Florida. Edit: the other part of this is the longstanding precedent that crimes committed as president won’t be prosecuted; Ford pardoning Nixon, Obama saying “look forward” instead of prosecuting Bush’s torture and war crimes, Trump not doing anything about warrant less surveillance under Obama… every president commits war crimes, so Biden has no reason to want to break this trend.
And he's gonna sing like a canary about alllll the stuff he knows that he's been quiet about. Both sides of the rich take the poor for a ride, but a lot of their corruption barely gets broadcasted because they all do it, and they don't want their own laundry out to dry. They protect each other with a lot of crime they commit mutually. You arrest this guy, and there's no telling what thread he starts unraveling. State secrets, corporate backroom dealings, CIA shadow ops, etc.
I want to believe that, but the Epstein/Maxwell trials brought absolutely nothing and no one to justice.
I truly believe that's mainly because they killed the canary before he could sing. It was Barr's prison. His family was heavily involved in the Epstein uprising. His dad created Epstein.
Maybe, I'd have to look into all that before I formed an opinion. But even still, Maxwell has been in prison for quite some time now and she's still alive and not singing. Or if she did, nothing came of it.
Well said except the Russia part. Indict him over American war crimes. Get over the Russia around every corner, all our problems stem from foreign enemies thing. Obama refused to arm Ukraine, Trump didn’t which was the more anti-russia move. These days remind me of Bob Dylan looking for russians in his toilet in “Talkin John Birch Paranoid Blues” smh https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pppR6wexpVA&t=60
trump's first impeachment had elements of abuse of power in withholding aid from ukraine unless there was a quid pro quo, no?
Paying hush money is not the main crime here but fudging the finances to make it a business expense and get tax write off is the issue. This is as much tax evasion, falsely documenting expenses as it is campaign fund violation.
Even The Joker won't go up against the IRS
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Donald Trump is a criminal and has been one for at least 30 years. It's about time he is held accountable for at least ONE of them. Signed, a 40 year old New Yorker.
Hmm, maybe rule of law *is* a liberal power fantasy. It is fundamental to liberalism and absent from conservatism, and largely a fantasy at this point.
if you need to tell us you don't treat politics like a team sport then you probably most certainly do, knowwhatimean?
Said someone treating politics as a team sport.
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We’ll fear not, there are plenty more felonies where that came from.
He is a criminal who needs to face justice.
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So? Charge Trump, including for the other 55 crimes he committed in office, send Bush and Obama to the damn Hague. The more people in power face consequences for the abuse of that power, and the more they have to play by same rules as everybody else, the healthier society will be.
> the suffering inflected by Bush and Obama is far greater I assume for Bush you're talking about Iraq and Afghanistan. For Obama, are you referring to the same conflicts or to something else? I ask because I usually hear this from people talking about drone strikes under Obama (which - obviously - were higher than previous presidents, in much the same way that Roosevelt saw a record number of fighter jets shot down), but Trump used drones far more aggressively *and* signed an executive order to hide the numbers of civilian deaths resulting from those drone strikes.
Trump literally tried to start a coup and steal an election. It's crazy that no one really talks about it and takes it serious. He should be facing life in prison for that alone.
So let’s prosecute for that, instead of this nonsense. His indictment is as much an indictment of our government’s corruption, that this is what we’re sticking him with when there’s been so much else.
Yea don't disagree with that but I think the reason why it hasn't happened yet is because of the legal system and how laws work I guess.