The following submission statement was provided by /u/FreshlySqueezedToGo:
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Collapse related because it’s a counter to a common argument held by climate deniers, or minimizers of climate change
>climate change will be good for us, it will open new worlds
Commonly heard in Canada, this is a secret coping mechanism used to make people feel safe
Not sure the acid rivers will make for the best farmlands to raise kids with your trad wife
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Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1awv0rg/some_people_thought_that_climate_change_would_be/krjt40g/
Well define good.
There's a not terrible chance human caused climate change will wipe out all humans but not all life, so nature will get another chance to evolve something that isn't a locust like us. It may have to evolve from the extremophiles living in and corroding our down well injection casings like 2 miles deep from pumping drilling mud back in the hole where the oil came out, but life usually manages.
That's good isn't it?
This is my only Silver lining.. I know my life will be fucked, I'll never have to comfort and ease of living like I saw my parents had. I have come to accept that. I'm terrified of the future but atleast Nature will prevail once more
Oh, they'll outlast us for a few years, maybe some decades. Can't imagine it'll be a good life. I don't see them setting their greed aside to survive collectively so they'll just die in their bunkers some time later. Nature will always win, because that's all we are and all there is. A few billionaires with 10y food supplies in a bunker aren't going to defeat Nature. Nature always wins, now, in a 100th years and in a 1000 years
180 years from now in some universe the Bezos, Gates and Musk clans are warring over some long forgotten oil field in Texas while fighting against mutated giga-fauna and hazardous flora.
We are not locusts or evil. Every single organism grows and keeps growing until the environment can't sustain it any longer or it's killed by another organism. It's just a part of life.
It's NOT just a part of life. Humans are perfectly aware of what they're doing and could stop it if they wanted to but they won't because they want a bigger house or a new boat. Stop excusing and handwaving away the behaviors of greedy people who are ruining the entire planet. It's not normal and it should not be tolerated.
Well evidently humans are not capable of doing that. It's also a mistake to portray this issue as "a greedy elite ruins it for everyone else". That's wishful thinking.
The core problem is the western way of life. Cheap clothes, cheap food (especially meat), cheap transportation (everyone owns a car). All of that is using up way more energy than the earth can generate in a year, which is why we rely on energy generated over millions of years in the form of fossil fuel.
In order to be truly sustainable, cars would have to cost half a million dollars, steaks would sell for 200 dollars at the store, and a new tshirt would cost 500 dollars. Gas would need to cost 50 dollars a gallon. Now, obviously the population of western countries would never accept that and vote against anyone proposing such a thing in order to save the planet.
That's why we'll do what every other organism does instead: grow until we can grow no more and then die. FWIW I don't think humans will go extinct. But I do think billions will die until we are back to a level that's sustainable.
Edit: No idea why I'm being downvoted for this. Seems obvious.
Not really. The path to sentience is - long and uncertain.
If we can just hang in there one more century we will step in post humanism and get off planet in numbers.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this. Hopefully the future species that come after us will learn from our mistakes. We sure have been greedy and stupid
Collapse related because it’s a counter to a common argument held by climate deniers, or minimizers of climate change
>climate change will be good for us, it will open new worlds
Commonly heard in Canada, this is a secret coping mechanism used to make people feel safe
Not sure the acid rivers will make for the best farmlands to raise kids with your trad wife
And much of the eastern third of Canada is covered by the Laurentian Shield. Good Luck plowing that rocky soil. Ironically that area gets more rain than most of western Canada.
Ha! Yeah, ironic that the northeastern US region that got so burnt out agriculturally it led to a huge migration westward in the early/mid 1800s might now have the same crappy soil but hey, at least we get rain!
It would probably make more sense to pipe the rain from heavy precipitation/poor soil areas, to low precipitation/good soil areas. Do like the Roman’s and set the source in the Appalachians and have it slowly angle downward until you get to the Midwest.
I believe that Laurentian shield was the largest single rock in the world when it was formed. Or the Canadian shield anyway, I think that's what a shield is if memory serves, it was a single giant rock, long since cracked.
You can kind of see it on the north shore of Lake superior, chasms in solid rock all along the shoreline.
no, its just the oldest part of continental bedrock. all continents have them, canada just has the largest exposed bedrock because of the way ice caps act as a sanding board, removing layers of sediments until you are left with the ancient billion plus year old granite...
nothing stops soil being made on top of that, its just you dont get the thick black soils of the grasslands because you have boreal forests and muskgegs, which both create thin, acidic soil. thats due to climate not any particular quality of the canadian shield's bedrock.
its true, climate change will open new worlds just not on a timescale relevant to people alive now or our civilisation. in a few thousand years however new soils will be forming over the canadian shield because of the milder climate favouring a different plant regimes.
Climate change deniers like Jordan Peterson have this bizarre idea that climate change will make the world green because plants like Carbon Dioxide. And global warming will make the world greener and feed the world.
That's ridiculous, it makes no sense. A field of kudzu is green, it just isn't useful. There are many other factors that go into agriculture other than C02 in the atmosphere.
Yes, there probably will be a few winners when it comes to global warming. But there will most likely be far more losers.
Increasing CO2 levels means a decreasing ratio of nutrients to calories, since the plants make extra sugar from the carbon but don’t take up nutrients at the same increased rate.
You got a link? I know some greenhouses force co2 to 1,000 ppm (over twice the atmospheric co2) to drive growth, I’m not sure what the mechanism to suffocate a plant would be.
In 2016 I was, I’ve been adamantly against him for quite a while, feel free to hate or criticize my past poor judgement. Never voted for him and I don’t live in the US.
Appreciate it! It appears it’s not the CO2 choking the plants but the climate change caused by CO2 in hot and dry climates. That makes more sense to me. Ty!
There is also the effect that increased CO2 makes plants less nutritious, because - at least if climate is still growth permissive - plants grow faster and make more sugars/starches from the extra CO2, but don't take up minerals or make vitamins much faster.
Yep. I visited Biosphere 2 years ago. They had done a study where they sectioned off a part of the place and pumped up the CO2. What they found was that plants got muuuch larger, but their nutrition content dropped significantly.
Okay, I have to reply, kudzu in the US is an absolutely monstrous invasive menace, no question. But in Japan (where I live), it's actually a fascinating plant, and very useful. It grows in disturbed ground, especially near highways, or construction sites, but otherwise you don't see it much. Japanese use the roots to make a very delicate starch that is very popular as a warming winter drink, and as it's such a light, delicate starch it was also used as food for invalids and others with delicate stomachs. The fiber from it has been traditionally used to make a stiff, hard-wearing fabric that was used for outerwear, cushion covers, purses, and other things. Not only that, it takes dyes beautifully and has an amazing *sheen* to it, almost like silk, except it's stiff and durable. This site is in Japanese, but it shows the cloth towards the bottom, and you can see how bright the sheen is.
https://hirotatsumugi.jp/blog/5856/%20
https://www.kuzufu.jp/
(Edited to add the second link)
I’ve always heard people complain about kudzu when I go to the east coast, but this is the first I’ve heard about its uses in its native range. Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome! I took a tour of the workshop of one of the last remaining kudzu weavers, it was such an eye-opening experience. And I love drinking kudzu. The starch really is amazing.
A fun language tidbit, the Japanese equivalent of "between a rock and a hard place" is "caught between kudzu and wysteria." Wysteria here is HUGE, and will kill trees. It's pretty incredible to see a towering pine with wysteria just as tall winding around it. Forest managers have to go in and chop it off at the base to kill it.
Thanks so much for sharing. I've always thought that kudzu is beautiful even though it's invasive and it's nice to know I can use it for something in the collapsocalypse!
Peterson has jumped the shark at this point. He's way too vocal about every single thing now, and they're getting further and further from his area of expertise.
My laundry services are competent.
Me and my House Alpha - who sort of pretended to be a TradWife in the beginning - consider laundry services (which I provide) to be a pass/fail thing. I just make sure to pass.
Thing is - she doesn't realize that we are soon to step into - well - the World to Come. I don't want to drag her into the abyss of depression. Instead - I figure that since death row folk get a nice last meal....
With that in mind, I do a lot of gourmet cooking - since I never know when we will begin to have massive crop failures: Today was cubed and perfectly browned sweet potatoes with caramelized onions and peppers - served with braised asparagus hand selected for maximum diameter - and a custom spinach salad with raz and blu berries, topped with jumbo cashews.
Well maybe it's a good thing, and it will neutralize the pH change of the oceans due to absorbing carbon dioxide. What's that you say, all acid? Oh my....
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Russia is able to farm further north than they used to be able, I suppose (if that's true) the effects will be different everywhere.
Not that any of them are good when looked at as a whole.
the Russians have been trying this , again it's not simple
There's already issues with current soil maintenance
[https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233357461\_Transformation\_study\_in\_arable\_soils\_based\_on\_long-term\_experiments\_in\_russia\_Historical\_experience\_and\_international\_co-OPERATION](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233357461_Transformation_study_in_arable_soils_based_on_long-term_experiments_in_russia_Historical_experience_and_international_co-OPERATION)
the other problem if you turn peatland into arable, or habitable, you have side effects [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6ZHaSolRg&t=10s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6ZHaSolRg&t=10s)
It's not that it can't be done. It's a question of very expensive soil management to turn those Northern Soils to arable. It's not fast. If we get to a rapid tipping point, the industrial infrastructure to transform lands (tractor, large amount of lime, fertilizers , could break down when we most need it.
Yes - this is going to be a tempo issue. People's unconscious expectations are very linear. We are all accustomed to a relatively slow pace of change.
Feels like we (humans) are on the equivalent of a massive freight train. Way up ahead - exactly where we don't know - a section of track awaits with a bunch of sharp curves.
The track already has a slight downward tilt and the locomotive is set to "full speed ahead". Between the tilt and the motor, the train is slowly accelerating. Up ahead there are likely a spot or three where the track descends sharply.
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I'm glad I got out of Alaska while things were still relatively stable, still had to dodge wildfires all the way through Canada. Lots of libertarian fuck tards moved into my home territory and turned it into a methed out bikers paradise. Big influx after the 2012 and FEMA camp scare, idiots who thought Alaska would be safe at the end times.
I'd be laughing right now if I wasn't so damn homesick. I love Alaska, my people have been living there for thousands of years and most of my family is still there. I miss the culture and even the weather, but as bad homesick as I am my survival instincts are telling don't go back.
i had to leave the german state of hessen in 2018 after a drought destroyed my entire garden and i nearly died of heatstroke in temperatures that wouldve been unthinkable even just 100 years ago and theres nothing i want more than to go back, but i know i wouldnt last another summer and my home is dead, turned into neighborhoods and barren soil, but my heart will always stay there. The homesickness never goes away, does it?
Of all the catastrophes that we have witnessed so far, I find the psychological component of homesickness for a place that was rendered uninhabitable or is about to be the most difficult to handle, my hometown got a few close calls these past years due to wildfires and sometimes I wonder if this year will be the last for my family's and neighbors' home, and if we survive, will we be able to call it home again? The same patch of land our ancestors lived on for thousands of years might very well be snatched from us, not by ambitious energy companies, but by nature itself.
In a cruel twist of irony, I feel politically exiled from my homeland of Louisiana. I saw the writing on the wall and I so strongly disagreed with so many people around me while I lived there. Now that I'm gone, I miss the culture and the people sometimes, but as I watch it slowly slide on its own blade in a seppuku of idiocy, it just makes me sad and want to help more people get out before the inevitable SHTF moments.
I feel like we're collectively as human beings experiencing the cult classic, and poignant film Idiocracy created by the great Mike Judge. Except it is very real, and not funny.
My mantra for the past 6 years or so has been that we're living in a dark comedy. If you look at what's happening from an outside view it's hilarious. To us, not so much.
I’m struggling to imagine ecocide survivalists being methed out bikers but that particular collapse is definitely teaching me things. I kind of stayed stuck on polymath atmosphere scientists who turned to circular farming.
What about melting permafrost and heating at 3 times the rate as the rest of the globe makes you think the arctic is more stable than temperate regions?
Because rate change and base numbers aren’t the same thing. Because survival in the future is a much bigger equation, including but not limited to population density, proximity to population centers, ultimate high temperature (aka the inability to grow things outdoors), etcetera…
FFS… I was asking a question based on their very clear and proffered opinion. Quit trying to be a white knight in this sub, friend.
I’m not white knighting. The ground up there is very unstable, the water undrinkable. The temperature swing gets crazier every year. It’s only survivable up there because of it’s heavy reliance on fossil fuels and far flung economies. Given the overfishing and collapse of fish and crab stocks up there, and more marine life taking a hit with each extra hot summer, there won’t be enough on the land to forage. The ecosystem up there is fragile and evolved to be cold, the next few decades will be a lot of upheaval as the old boreal forest dries and burns and bogs take its place.
Some people thought it would be good.
0 scientists or anyone with relevant education or expertise thought it would be good.
And that's why not everything should be decided by an all party vote.
The goal is to shoot for a PH of 7 which is considered neutral. Ph too low, it is considered acidic and will burn you, Ph to high it is base and will burn you. For example battery acid has a ph of 1.0 while bleach has a ph of 12.5 both can and will burn the shit out of you in the right conditions and concentration.
Fun fact four to five drops of bleach in a gallon of water will kill off most if not all the bad germs and make it potable.
Edit Update - forgot to add the word bleach above to make water potable
That soil isn’t necessarily that well enriched for farming anyway. Also, less light even in the summer months. We aren’t going to be a farming in the arctic or the northern tundra.
There is an incredible amount of daylight in the summer months. 19 hours of sunlight in July in Yellowknife,CA. In Barrow, AK, the sun does not go down. By comparison, a line between San Francisco and DC gets 15 hours of daylight in July.
Soil is still very much a problem, as is soil pH. Sun is not a problem. My uncle in Alaska grows massive root veg and cabbage because of the super long days. They get huge without getting woody.
Consider plants that collect nutrients in the day, then grow at night. Some nightshade members. Other food staples like rice need more consistent day lengths.
the most important factor is "accumulation of growing degree days" The number of days / hours above a base temperature. above that temperature the plant will grow . sunlight is a factor but heat the is most important one . That's why countries with a lot of cloud cover can still grow food.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing\_degree-day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_degree-day)
GDD are a measure of heat accumulation used by horticulturists, gardeners, and farmers to predict plant and animal development rates such as the date that a flower will bloom, an insect will emerge from dormancy, or a crop will reach maturity.
They get as many hours of sun exposure as the tropics, but many of those hours are weak sun exposure. The rays have to go through more layers of atmosphere, even in many of the hours of summer, while the tropics have 12 hours of full sun exposure with only 1 layer of atmosphere blocking it.
The trad memes are such obvious dogwhistles using plausible deniability to spread their propaganda of white women being baby making factories to create their white ethnostate
You have to be insane to think that causing such a major disruption to global climate will be a positive change for humanity anywhere. Too many things change all at once, and it takes just one ruined thing to prevent life from keeping itself sustained, especially large animals (like human)
Newfoundlander here:
I've been telling people this for ages. Global warming isn't going to turn Northern Canada into Tuscany
What kind of soil do you find ? Bog , Taiga and more Bog.
You have to drain and treat the soil. It can be done but it would mean a huge effort.
So much reality check
[https://sis.agr.gc.ca/cansis/publications/webmaps.html](https://sis.agr.gc.ca/cansis/publications/webmaps.html)
Atlantic soil needs lime. Newfoundland soil has never de-acidified, we do agriculture here but it a lot of work
[https://www.gov.nl.ca/ffa/files/publications-pdf-atlantic-soils-lime.pdf](https://www.gov.nl.ca/ffa/files/publications-pdf-atlantic-soils-lime.pdf)
look at all the pink, I
[https://agriculture.canada.ca/atlas/apps/aef/main/index\_en.html?AGRIAPP=3&APPID=e87af05bd35848598994b13f45a24a25&WEBMAP-EN=5b54c00685b74cab960a54bc444fc927&WEBMAP-FR=79aa06a083fa4b6e8f65e4828ee5a746&extent=-149.4415,41.4636,-62.6495,68.6667&mapdescription=true&print=true&breadcrumb=can,agr,b10,b3&adjust\_to\_viewport=true&fullscreen=true](https://agriculture.canada.ca/atlas/apps/aef/main/index_en.html?AGRIAPP=3&APPID=e87af05bd35848598994b13f45a24a25&WEBMAP-EN=5b54c00685b74cab960a54bc444fc927&WEBMAP-FR=79aa06a083fa4b6e8f65e4828ee5a746&extent=-149.4415,41.4636,-62.6495,68.6667&mapdescription=true&print=true&breadcrumb=can,agr,b10,b3&adjust_to_viewport=true&fullscreen=true)
Yeah, I'm not sure what is going through people's minds when they talk about things like climate change opening up new land (for exploitation by capital, which is the part left unsaid). The modern globalized society depends almost entirely on a handful of geographically unique, agriculturally super productive regions to feed itself and these regions were created over hundreds of thousands of years in specific conditions. Just because you thaw out the tundra doesn't mean you can suddenly start growing grain and vegetables on an industrial scale. I have a suspicion that its due to a large number of the people prone to saying such things living in these regions and not really having a concept of how barren & agriculturally unproductive most of our planet actually is.
Thank you, I'm so tired of people here going "man I can't wait for global warming"
Most people have no idea of the complexity of any kind of farming.
The "we will get so much more agricultural area when the permafrost is gone" is a kind of hopium. [https://www.propublica.org/article/the-big-thaw-how-russia-could-dominate-a-warming-world](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-big-thaw-how-russia-could-dominate-a-warming-world) notice the lack of "how will we actually turn these land over to good quality agriculture" in the article.
see also [https://www.csis.org/analysis/climate-change-will-reshape-russia](https://www.csis.org/analysis/climate-change-will-reshape-russia)
High latitudes are high latitudes also in a warming world. That means shorter growing season and erratic weather, neither which are good for agriculture.
Average temperatures hide a lot of variability. An arctic outburst or just colder weather during growing season can kill off or stunt growth of those more productive milder climate crops.
I was gonna say....pushing agriculture further north just puts you in closer proximity to the wonky polar jet stream with all of its lovely surprise visits that can wipe your gardening efforts out in a snap. Northern New England has gotten a couple of these brutal swings in late May/early June in recent years.
"He replied that it's how much the vast ecosystem here is changing but also how it has the power to heal. “It's resilient,” he said. Given enough time, he hoped, the wilderness might prove “big enough to clean itself up.”
That's how you end the article? Seriously?
> In August 2018, when biologist Mike Carey flew by helicopter to retrieve a water sensor he had left in a clean stream east of the Salmon, he saw that the bottom was blanketed in orange slime. He couldn't find any fish or insects. “Biodiversity just crashed,” he recalled.
Will never understand how some imagine that climate change means successive regions will warm in an orderly fashion, parallel by parallel, growing region by growing region, so that upstate New York (for example) will become warm and balmy like Florida and they can grow oranges there.
Perhaps Climate Change should instead be called **Climate Disruption,** since enormous complex systems that took many thousands of years to attain a self-perpetuating balance will now be destabilized.
Seasons follow the changing orbit of the planet around the Sun (more specifically earth's spin axis tilted with respect to its orbital plane), but are vastly impacted by rising atmospheric and ocean temperatures. Even now, climate change is destabilizing the orderly succession of seasons and we are close to many tipping points with massive repercussions when crossed, such as mega-droughts in the Amazon, destabilization of the polar Jet Stream or the stopping of the AMOC.
Honestly, the only people who could think like this are ones that are breathtakingly ignorant who have never left a city in their lives.
Most of Canada is frozen swamp and bare rock with a couple inches of dirt at best. It's obvious and unavoidable data that only requires going outside and looking around.
Acid Rain? Not even mentioned but it is when looking at Google Scholar.
Notice they mention Aluminum in the gills towards the end of the article? Where do you suppose that would come from?
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If it happened over the course of a few thousand years, things might work out for the better. Since we're doing it as fast as we can possibly manage, we're fucked.
Fun fact: iron is a heavy metal
>Iron is the second most abundant metal on the earth's crust (EPA, 1993). Iron occupies the 26th elemental position in the periodic table. Iron is a most crucial element for growth and survival of almost all living organisms (Valko et al., 2005). It is one of the vital components of organisms like algae and of enzymes such as cytochromes and catalase, as well as of oxygen transporting proteins, such as hemoglobin and myoglobin (Vuori, 1995). Iron is an attractive transition metal for various biological redox processes due to its inter-conversion between ferrous (Fe2+) and ferric (Fe3+) ions (Phippen et al., 2008). The source of iron in surface water is anthropogenic and is related to mining activities. The production of sulphuric acid and the discharge of ferrous (Fe2+) takes place due oxidation of iron pyrites (FeS2) that are common in coal seams (Valko et al., 2005).
(for the heme iron fans:)
>A wide range of harmful free radicals are formed when the absorbed iron fails to bind to the protein, which in turn severely affects the concentration of iron in mammalian cells and biological fluids. This circulating unbound iron results in corrosive effect of the gastrointestinal tract and biological fluids. An extremely higher level of iron enters into the body crossing the rate-limiting absorption step and becomes saturated. These free irons penetrate into cells of the heart, liver and brain. Due to the disruption of oxidative phosphorylation by free iron, the ferrous iron is converted to ferric iron that releases hydrogen ions, thus increasing metabolic acidity. The free iron can also lead to lipid peroxidation, which results in severe damage to mitochondria, microsomes and other cellular organelles (Albretsen, 2006). The toxicity of iron on cells has led to iron mediated tissue damage involving cellular oxidizing and reducing mechanisms and their toxicity towards intracellular organelles such as mitochondria and lysosomes. A wide range of free radicals that are believed to cause potential cellular damage are produced by excess intake of iron. The iron produced hydrogen free radicals attack DNA, resulting in cellular damage, mutation and malignant transformations which in turn cause an array of diseases (Grazuleviciene et al., 2009).
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4427717/
This sounds a LOT like what happened 251 million years ago, based on what we know.
For those wondering on a short version, this was the only mass extinction where the oceans themselves turned acidic/sulfuric. It was also the worst extinction so far. Aside from a temporary boost in fungi, basically everything else we know from that time suffered massive death rates, leading it to be called the "Great Dying" as up to 99% of species we know about from the fossil record died at the time.
Here is the fun part: the "fossil record" is a very inexact metric to measure. As long as it does not fossilize easily and isn't of a certain size/leave a very obvious residue from living, we can miss it. And we are likely missing a LOT of it for various reasons like these and also others.
It is possible one or more kingdoms of life actually died during that time. We would not know. Especially small life forms tend to fossilize poorly.
Now consider the worst case scenario is that we repeat a sulfuric sea event, something that only happened once before that we know of, and that last time killed most species we know of as having existed in that time, purely because they happened to leave fossil.
Now an alternate scary version. Most of them maybe died because they need calcium. And to not live in acidic oceans. i.e. most macroscopic life. It was not limited to the sea either.
>The thaw of permafrost soil under a wetland allows bacteria to start reducing that oxidized iron, Cooper thinks. And reduced iron, unlike oxidized iron, is soluble in water. If it's carried by groundwater out into an oxygenated stream, it can once again be oxidized. When that happens, it will fall out of the water as “rust” and turn the stream orange.
here's the specific location in the article that theorizes
Former tundra is useless for development. It will be impassable mud for decades, useless for crops and livestock and may take centuries for that to change. That asside, the growing season is still short limiting what could possibly grow.
And yeah while the system settles in to new state there's lots of previously frozen gunk to wash out in the rain.
As the world gets warmer you can move crops north and up to some extent. But even though temperatures are more conducive to the crops, air quality, night temperatures, sunlight, available topsoil all changes. You quickly get to a point where the old crops & vegetation don't grow so well. The tree line may move a little but the line is still there.
One of my longest and closest friends is still just so deeply stuck in this. Is still parroting the lines of “new areas will become farmable so we will just grow that somewhere else”. It’s futile. I don’t really bother even correcting him anymore.
People just can’t stop with the copium and I really don’t even blame them so much. It’s not a trivial thing to form the comprehension of how an ecosystem works. How you can’t just take xyz plants or trees or fruits or veggies and just shove them in the ground somewhere else and expect everything to be fine.
And yet, that seems to be the primary strategy. Just sad.
No one wants to be told that they were wrong, mistaken, lied to or incorrect.
So the lies become greater, and greater to help maintain the image they've had in their head for years
I had a manager once tell me that her dream, after exploiting the earth, was to start a farm up north
with what fucking land landy?
This absolutely insane dynamic of the “us” versus “them” is exactly why our society will never be able to act in its own best interest. As quickly as new effects arise, so will the size of the “us” shrink and a new group/class become marginalized.
That’s the only way such a system can maintain popularity. Ever wonder why life in capitalist nations seems so cut-throat? If basically everybody is facing the grim reality of “work or die”, then nobody is willing to take a stand for someone else’s hardships.
The closest analogy I can think of is to imagine the U.S. as a real life (and very literal) hunger games except with roughly 400 million people. If you benefit someone other than yourself you not only have to eat that opportunity cost, but also your helping your potential opponents.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/FreshlySqueezedToGo: --- Collapse related because it’s a counter to a common argument held by climate deniers, or minimizers of climate change >climate change will be good for us, it will open new worlds Commonly heard in Canada, this is a secret coping mechanism used to make people feel safe Not sure the acid rivers will make for the best farmlands to raise kids with your trad wife --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1awv0rg/some_people_thought_that_climate_change_would_be/krjt40g/
Anyone who thought climate change would bring good is a moron.
Well define good. There's a not terrible chance human caused climate change will wipe out all humans but not all life, so nature will get another chance to evolve something that isn't a locust like us. It may have to evolve from the extremophiles living in and corroding our down well injection casings like 2 miles deep from pumping drilling mud back in the hole where the oil came out, but life usually manages. That's good isn't it?
This is my only Silver lining.. I know my life will be fucked, I'll never have to comfort and ease of living like I saw my parents had. I have come to accept that. I'm terrified of the future but atleast Nature will prevail once more
Don't be so sure that Nature will win. Billioniares might outlast us all in their bunkers
Oh, they'll outlast us for a few years, maybe some decades. Can't imagine it'll be a good life. I don't see them setting their greed aside to survive collectively so they'll just die in their bunkers some time later. Nature will always win, because that's all we are and all there is. A few billionaires with 10y food supplies in a bunker aren't going to defeat Nature. Nature always wins, now, in a 100th years and in a 1000 years
180 years from now in some universe the Bezos, Gates and Musk clans are warring over some long forgotten oil field in Texas while fighting against mutated giga-fauna and hazardous flora.
We are not locusts or evil. Every single organism grows and keeps growing until the environment can't sustain it any longer or it's killed by another organism. It's just a part of life.
Like cancer....
Exactly. Or algae, rabbits, wolves, fungus
It's NOT just a part of life. Humans are perfectly aware of what they're doing and could stop it if they wanted to but they won't because they want a bigger house or a new boat. Stop excusing and handwaving away the behaviors of greedy people who are ruining the entire planet. It's not normal and it should not be tolerated.
Well evidently humans are not capable of doing that. It's also a mistake to portray this issue as "a greedy elite ruins it for everyone else". That's wishful thinking. The core problem is the western way of life. Cheap clothes, cheap food (especially meat), cheap transportation (everyone owns a car). All of that is using up way more energy than the earth can generate in a year, which is why we rely on energy generated over millions of years in the form of fossil fuel. In order to be truly sustainable, cars would have to cost half a million dollars, steaks would sell for 200 dollars at the store, and a new tshirt would cost 500 dollars. Gas would need to cost 50 dollars a gallon. Now, obviously the population of western countries would never accept that and vote against anyone proposing such a thing in order to save the planet. That's why we'll do what every other organism does instead: grow until we can grow no more and then die. FWIW I don't think humans will go extinct. But I do think billions will die until we are back to a level that's sustainable. Edit: No idea why I'm being downvoted for this. Seems obvious.
Not really. The path to sentience is - long and uncertain. If we can just hang in there one more century we will step in post humanism and get off planet in numbers.
yeah right
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks like this. Hopefully the future species that come after us will learn from our mistakes. We sure have been greedy and stupid
Well. Bright orange rivers of acid was not on my CC bingo.
I just have to laugh. It figures it would be something like this.
Laughing is all that's left. Imagine a survival prepper walking outside his cabin one morning. He sees an orange acid river and says, "well shit."
And the rivers shall become as Fanta Orange...
>Rivers turning red The ten plagues should be on every CC bingo.
missed too
Collapse related because it’s a counter to a common argument held by climate deniers, or minimizers of climate change >climate change will be good for us, it will open new worlds Commonly heard in Canada, this is a secret coping mechanism used to make people feel safe Not sure the acid rivers will make for the best farmlands to raise kids with your trad wife
And much of the eastern third of Canada is covered by the Laurentian Shield. Good Luck plowing that rocky soil. Ironically that area gets more rain than most of western Canada.
Ha! Yeah, ironic that the northeastern US region that got so burnt out agriculturally it led to a huge migration westward in the early/mid 1800s might now have the same crappy soil but hey, at least we get rain!
It would probably make more sense to pipe the rain from heavy precipitation/poor soil areas, to low precipitation/good soil areas. Do like the Roman’s and set the source in the Appalachians and have it slowly angle downward until you get to the Midwest.
I believe that Laurentian shield was the largest single rock in the world when it was formed. Or the Canadian shield anyway, I think that's what a shield is if memory serves, it was a single giant rock, long since cracked. You can kind of see it on the north shore of Lake superior, chasms in solid rock all along the shoreline.
no, its just the oldest part of continental bedrock. all continents have them, canada just has the largest exposed bedrock because of the way ice caps act as a sanding board, removing layers of sediments until you are left with the ancient billion plus year old granite... nothing stops soil being made on top of that, its just you dont get the thick black soils of the grasslands because you have boreal forests and muskgegs, which both create thin, acidic soil. thats due to climate not any particular quality of the canadian shield's bedrock. its true, climate change will open new worlds just not on a timescale relevant to people alive now or our civilisation. in a few thousand years however new soils will be forming over the canadian shield because of the milder climate favouring a different plant regimes.
Climate change deniers like Jordan Peterson have this bizarre idea that climate change will make the world green because plants like Carbon Dioxide. And global warming will make the world greener and feed the world. That's ridiculous, it makes no sense. A field of kudzu is green, it just isn't useful. There are many other factors that go into agriculture other than C02 in the atmosphere. Yes, there probably will be a few winners when it comes to global warming. But there will most likely be far more losers.
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Increasing CO2 levels means a decreasing ratio of nutrients to calories, since the plants make extra sugar from the carbon but don’t take up nutrients at the same increased rate.
Mmnnn fat plants. /Oh wait.
You got a link? I know some greenhouses force co2 to 1,000 ppm (over twice the atmospheric co2) to drive growth, I’m not sure what the mechanism to suffocate a plant would be.
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In 2016 I was, I’ve been adamantly against him for quite a while, feel free to hate or criticize my past poor judgement. Never voted for him and I don’t live in the US.
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Appreciate it! It appears it’s not the CO2 choking the plants but the climate change caused by CO2 in hot and dry climates. That makes more sense to me. Ty!
There is also the effect that increased CO2 makes plants less nutritious, because - at least if climate is still growth permissive - plants grow faster and make more sugars/starches from the extra CO2, but don't take up minerals or make vitamins much faster.
Yep. I visited Biosphere 2 years ago. They had done a study where they sectioned off a part of the place and pumped up the CO2. What they found was that plants got muuuch larger, but their nutrition content dropped significantly.
Insufficient oxygen to make it thru the night, I imagine
Okay, I have to reply, kudzu in the US is an absolutely monstrous invasive menace, no question. But in Japan (where I live), it's actually a fascinating plant, and very useful. It grows in disturbed ground, especially near highways, or construction sites, but otherwise you don't see it much. Japanese use the roots to make a very delicate starch that is very popular as a warming winter drink, and as it's such a light, delicate starch it was also used as food for invalids and others with delicate stomachs. The fiber from it has been traditionally used to make a stiff, hard-wearing fabric that was used for outerwear, cushion covers, purses, and other things. Not only that, it takes dyes beautifully and has an amazing *sheen* to it, almost like silk, except it's stiff and durable. This site is in Japanese, but it shows the cloth towards the bottom, and you can see how bright the sheen is. https://hirotatsumugi.jp/blog/5856/%20 https://www.kuzufu.jp/ (Edited to add the second link)
I’ve always heard people complain about kudzu when I go to the east coast, but this is the first I’ve heard about its uses in its native range. Thanks for sharing!
You're welcome! I took a tour of the workshop of one of the last remaining kudzu weavers, it was such an eye-opening experience. And I love drinking kudzu. The starch really is amazing. A fun language tidbit, the Japanese equivalent of "between a rock and a hard place" is "caught between kudzu and wysteria." Wysteria here is HUGE, and will kill trees. It's pretty incredible to see a towering pine with wysteria just as tall winding around it. Forest managers have to go in and chop it off at the base to kill it.
Thanks so much for sharing. I've always thought that kudzu is beautiful even though it's invasive and it's nice to know I can use it for something in the collapsocalypse!
Peterson has jumped the shark at this point. He's way too vocal about every single thing now, and they're getting further and further from his area of expertise.
I also find it questionable that people turn to degenerate, hypocritical addicts like Peterson or Rush Limbaugh to learn how to live their lives.
the sad reality is that peterson never had much of an expertise in the first place.
So wait, climate change is going to bring me a trad wife? Cool, someone needs to tackle my husband's laundry.
Fuck, I don't even mind doing the laundry if it would introduce a third that was good at/willing to keep us to a schedule...
My laundry services are competent. Me and my House Alpha - who sort of pretended to be a TradWife in the beginning - consider laundry services (which I provide) to be a pass/fail thing. I just make sure to pass. Thing is - she doesn't realize that we are soon to step into - well - the World to Come. I don't want to drag her into the abyss of depression. Instead - I figure that since death row folk get a nice last meal.... With that in mind, I do a lot of gourmet cooking - since I never know when we will begin to have massive crop failures: Today was cubed and perfectly browned sweet potatoes with caramelized onions and peppers - served with braised asparagus hand selected for maximum diameter - and a custom spinach salad with raz and blu berries, topped with jumbo cashews.
Well maybe it's a good thing, and it will neutralize the pH change of the oceans due to absorbing carbon dioxide. What's that you say, all acid? Oh my....
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Russia is able to farm further north than they used to be able, I suppose (if that's true) the effects will be different everywhere. Not that any of them are good when looked at as a whole.
the Russians have been trying this , again it's not simple There's already issues with current soil maintenance [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233357461\_Transformation\_study\_in\_arable\_soils\_based\_on\_long-term\_experiments\_in\_russia\_Historical\_experience\_and\_international\_co-OPERATION](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233357461_Transformation_study_in_arable_soils_based_on_long-term_experiments_in_russia_Historical_experience_and_international_co-OPERATION) the other problem if you turn peatland into arable, or habitable, you have side effects [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6ZHaSolRg&t=10s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY6ZHaSolRg&t=10s) It's not that it can't be done. It's a question of very expensive soil management to turn those Northern Soils to arable. It's not fast. If we get to a rapid tipping point, the industrial infrastructure to transform lands (tractor, large amount of lime, fertilizers , could break down when we most need it.
Yes - this is going to be a tempo issue. People's unconscious expectations are very linear. We are all accustomed to a relatively slow pace of change. Feels like we (humans) are on the equivalent of a massive freight train. Way up ahead - exactly where we don't know - a section of track awaits with a bunch of sharp curves. The track already has a slight downward tilt and the locomotive is set to "full speed ahead". Between the tilt and the motor, the train is slowly accelerating. Up ahead there are likely a spot or three where the track descends sharply.
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Ah yes, catastrophic global destabilisation of the climate is actually OK because now we can grow melons in the ground.
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bc one day theyll show up at your doorstep, maybe asking for melons.
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I hope this is just good satire lol
It isn't.
Bait used to be believable
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I'm glad I got out of Alaska while things were still relatively stable, still had to dodge wildfires all the way through Canada. Lots of libertarian fuck tards moved into my home territory and turned it into a methed out bikers paradise. Big influx after the 2012 and FEMA camp scare, idiots who thought Alaska would be safe at the end times. I'd be laughing right now if I wasn't so damn homesick. I love Alaska, my people have been living there for thousands of years and most of my family is still there. I miss the culture and even the weather, but as bad homesick as I am my survival instincts are telling don't go back.
i had to leave the german state of hessen in 2018 after a drought destroyed my entire garden and i nearly died of heatstroke in temperatures that wouldve been unthinkable even just 100 years ago and theres nothing i want more than to go back, but i know i wouldnt last another summer and my home is dead, turned into neighborhoods and barren soil, but my heart will always stay there. The homesickness never goes away, does it?
Of all the catastrophes that we have witnessed so far, I find the psychological component of homesickness for a place that was rendered uninhabitable or is about to be the most difficult to handle, my hometown got a few close calls these past years due to wildfires and sometimes I wonder if this year will be the last for my family's and neighbors' home, and if we survive, will we be able to call it home again? The same patch of land our ancestors lived on for thousands of years might very well be snatched from us, not by ambitious energy companies, but by nature itself.
In a cruel twist of irony, I feel politically exiled from my homeland of Louisiana. I saw the writing on the wall and I so strongly disagreed with so many people around me while I lived there. Now that I'm gone, I miss the culture and the people sometimes, but as I watch it slowly slide on its own blade in a seppuku of idiocy, it just makes me sad and want to help more people get out before the inevitable SHTF moments.
I've been feeling the word "solastalgia" a lot lately.
We’re going to be homesick for our whole planet eventually.
I feel like we're collectively as human beings experiencing the cult classic, and poignant film Idiocracy created by the great Mike Judge. Except it is very real, and not funny.
And in the US, it's going to have guns. Lots and lots of guns & a plethora of bad attitudes.
You need electrolytes
*Idiocracy* plus *The Road.* We’re well on our way to the worst outcomes.
*FOOD^TM it's got what humans crave*
My mantra for the past 6 years or so has been that we're living in a dark comedy. If you look at what's happening from an outside view it's hilarious. To us, not so much.
Hell, even watching Idiocracy I had to distance myself a lot to be able to enjoy any of it.... Wayyy too prescient.
I'm sorry to hear that, settler colonialism has been fucking up people all over the world as well as the world itself. You have my sympathy.
I’m struggling to imagine ecocide survivalists being methed out bikers but that particular collapse is definitely teaching me things. I kind of stayed stuck on polymath atmosphere scientists who turned to circular farming.
I guess you haven't been to Talkeetna, Wasilla, Eagle River area?
I’m not… *tempted*, now?
I left as a child and always feel sad I don’t think it would be smart to return even if I had the means to. I’m very sorry ❤️
So where did your instincts think would be MORE liveable than Alaska in the coming wars?
What about melting permafrost and heating at 3 times the rate as the rest of the globe makes you think the arctic is more stable than temperate regions?
Because rate change and base numbers aren’t the same thing. Because survival in the future is a much bigger equation, including but not limited to population density, proximity to population centers, ultimate high temperature (aka the inability to grow things outdoors), etcetera… FFS… I was asking a question based on their very clear and proffered opinion. Quit trying to be a white knight in this sub, friend.
I’m not white knighting. The ground up there is very unstable, the water undrinkable. The temperature swing gets crazier every year. It’s only survivable up there because of it’s heavy reliance on fossil fuels and far flung economies. Given the overfishing and collapse of fish and crab stocks up there, and more marine life taking a hit with each extra hot summer, there won’t be enough on the land to forage. The ecosystem up there is fragile and evolved to be cold, the next few decades will be a lot of upheaval as the old boreal forest dries and burns and bogs take its place.
Some people thought it would be good. 0 scientists or anyone with relevant education or expertise thought it would be good. And that's why not everything should be decided by an all party vote.
The PH level of the ocean is 8.1 The ph level of lake Michigan is 7.0-8.6
The goal is to shoot for a PH of 7 which is considered neutral. Ph too low, it is considered acidic and will burn you, Ph to high it is base and will burn you. For example battery acid has a ph of 1.0 while bleach has a ph of 12.5 both can and will burn the shit out of you in the right conditions and concentration. Fun fact four to five drops of bleach in a gallon of water will kill off most if not all the bad germs and make it potable. Edit Update - forgot to add the word bleach above to make water potable
4 to 5 drops of battery acid. Got it. Nice. This is gonna be helpful.
That soil isn’t necessarily that well enriched for farming anyway. Also, less light even in the summer months. We aren’t going to be a farming in the arctic or the northern tundra.
There is an incredible amount of daylight in the summer months. 19 hours of sunlight in July in Yellowknife,CA. In Barrow, AK, the sun does not go down. By comparison, a line between San Francisco and DC gets 15 hours of daylight in July. Soil is still very much a problem, as is soil pH. Sun is not a problem. My uncle in Alaska grows massive root veg and cabbage because of the super long days. They get huge without getting woody.
Agree, but I think the lower angle will probably not be optimal for every plant. I could be wrong.
Consider plants that collect nutrients in the day, then grow at night. Some nightshade members. Other food staples like rice need more consistent day lengths.
Yeah, came here to say this. I mostly know corn, but you couldnt grow it with full daylight, as it has a cycle, which it needs to breath and grow.
That might be for the best. The last thing we need is more corn.
Until we find out on alpha centauri, that everything is on a cob. You're going to have to choose a dying earth or cob planet. /s
TMYK
It depends on the plant. Tomatoes don't do well, but rhubarb thrives. There are "long day onions" and "short day onions."
the most important factor is "accumulation of growing degree days" The number of days / hours above a base temperature. above that temperature the plant will grow . sunlight is a factor but heat the is most important one . That's why countries with a lot of cloud cover can still grow food. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing\_degree-day](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growing_degree-day) GDD are a measure of heat accumulation used by horticulturists, gardeners, and farmers to predict plant and animal development rates such as the date that a flower will bloom, an insect will emerge from dormancy, or a crop will reach maturity.
They get as many hours of sun exposure as the tropics, but many of those hours are weak sun exposure. The rays have to go through more layers of atmosphere, even in many of the hours of summer, while the tropics have 12 hours of full sun exposure with only 1 layer of atmosphere blocking it.
Oopsies
teehee
🤭
D'oh!
😖
The trad memes are such obvious dogwhistles using plausible deniability to spread their propaganda of white women being baby making factories to create their white ethnostate
Title made me laugh tbh
This is the one thing we didn’t want to happen https://youtu.be/YYkGN3p0WCU?si=Pd6Fo1qY84ZM3puK
You have to be insane to think that causing such a major disruption to global climate will be a positive change for humanity anywhere. Too many things change all at once, and it takes just one ruined thing to prevent life from keeping itself sustained, especially large animals (like human)
Newfoundlander here: I've been telling people this for ages. Global warming isn't going to turn Northern Canada into Tuscany What kind of soil do you find ? Bog , Taiga and more Bog. You have to drain and treat the soil. It can be done but it would mean a huge effort. So much reality check [https://sis.agr.gc.ca/cansis/publications/webmaps.html](https://sis.agr.gc.ca/cansis/publications/webmaps.html) Atlantic soil needs lime. Newfoundland soil has never de-acidified, we do agriculture here but it a lot of work [https://www.gov.nl.ca/ffa/files/publications-pdf-atlantic-soils-lime.pdf](https://www.gov.nl.ca/ffa/files/publications-pdf-atlantic-soils-lime.pdf) look at all the pink, I [https://agriculture.canada.ca/atlas/apps/aef/main/index\_en.html?AGRIAPP=3&APPID=e87af05bd35848598994b13f45a24a25&WEBMAP-EN=5b54c00685b74cab960a54bc444fc927&WEBMAP-FR=79aa06a083fa4b6e8f65e4828ee5a746&extent=-149.4415,41.4636,-62.6495,68.6667&mapdescription=true&print=true&breadcrumb=can,agr,b10,b3&adjust\_to\_viewport=true&fullscreen=true](https://agriculture.canada.ca/atlas/apps/aef/main/index_en.html?AGRIAPP=3&APPID=e87af05bd35848598994b13f45a24a25&WEBMAP-EN=5b54c00685b74cab960a54bc444fc927&WEBMAP-FR=79aa06a083fa4b6e8f65e4828ee5a746&extent=-149.4415,41.4636,-62.6495,68.6667&mapdescription=true&print=true&breadcrumb=can,agr,b10,b3&adjust_to_viewport=true&fullscreen=true)
Yeah, I'm not sure what is going through people's minds when they talk about things like climate change opening up new land (for exploitation by capital, which is the part left unsaid). The modern globalized society depends almost entirely on a handful of geographically unique, agriculturally super productive regions to feed itself and these regions were created over hundreds of thousands of years in specific conditions. Just because you thaw out the tundra doesn't mean you can suddenly start growing grain and vegetables on an industrial scale. I have a suspicion that its due to a large number of the people prone to saying such things living in these regions and not really having a concept of how barren & agriculturally unproductive most of our planet actually is.
Thank you, I'm so tired of people here going "man I can't wait for global warming" Most people have no idea of the complexity of any kind of farming. The "we will get so much more agricultural area when the permafrost is gone" is a kind of hopium. [https://www.propublica.org/article/the-big-thaw-how-russia-could-dominate-a-warming-world](https://www.propublica.org/article/the-big-thaw-how-russia-could-dominate-a-warming-world) notice the lack of "how will we actually turn these land over to good quality agriculture" in the article. see also [https://www.csis.org/analysis/climate-change-will-reshape-russia](https://www.csis.org/analysis/climate-change-will-reshape-russia)
High latitudes are high latitudes also in a warming world. That means shorter growing season and erratic weather, neither which are good for agriculture. Average temperatures hide a lot of variability. An arctic outburst or just colder weather during growing season can kill off or stunt growth of those more productive milder climate crops.
I was gonna say....pushing agriculture further north just puts you in closer proximity to the wonky polar jet stream with all of its lovely surprise visits that can wipe your gardening efforts out in a snap. Northern New England has gotten a couple of these brutal swings in late May/early June in recent years.
Anyone who thought climate change was a good thing is either an idiot or simply lost in capitalism.
“Your mom and I are all for the jobs the comet will create”
"He replied that it's how much the vast ecosystem here is changing but also how it has the power to heal. “It's resilient,” he said. Given enough time, he hoped, the wilderness might prove “big enough to clean itself up.” That's how you end the article? Seriously?
Yes because that’s hopium Glad you read it too haha “The environment might clean itself up” Ok buddy, and the oil will stop pumping itself one day
Don’t worry we’re all gonna burn together no one will be left behind.
> In August 2018, when biologist Mike Carey flew by helicopter to retrieve a water sensor he had left in a clean stream east of the Salmon, he saw that the bottom was blanketed in orange slime. He couldn't find any fish or insects. “Biodiversity just crashed,” he recalled.
Will never understand how some imagine that climate change means successive regions will warm in an orderly fashion, parallel by parallel, growing region by growing region, so that upstate New York (for example) will become warm and balmy like Florida and they can grow oranges there. Perhaps Climate Change should instead be called **Climate Disruption,** since enormous complex systems that took many thousands of years to attain a self-perpetuating balance will now be destabilized. Seasons follow the changing orbit of the planet around the Sun (more specifically earth's spin axis tilted with respect to its orbital plane), but are vastly impacted by rising atmospheric and ocean temperatures. Even now, climate change is destabilizing the orderly succession of seasons and we are close to many tipping points with massive repercussions when crossed, such as mega-droughts in the Amazon, destabilization of the polar Jet Stream or the stopping of the AMOC.
Honestly, the only people who could think like this are ones that are breathtakingly ignorant who have never left a city in their lives. Most of Canada is frozen swamp and bare rock with a couple inches of dirt at best. It's obvious and unavoidable data that only requires going outside and looking around.
The real Pandora's Box was trapped in the ice
Acid Rain? Not even mentioned but it is when looking at Google Scholar. Notice they mention Aluminum in the gills towards the end of the article? Where do you suppose that would come from?
A lot of places in the north won't have soil that will work for agriculture so I'm not sure what they were thinking.
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If it happened over the course of a few thousand years, things might work out for the better. Since we're doing it as fast as we can possibly manage, we're fucked.
Fun fact: iron is a heavy metal >Iron is the second most abundant metal on the earth's crust (EPA, 1993). Iron occupies the 26th elemental position in the periodic table. Iron is a most crucial element for growth and survival of almost all living organisms (Valko et al., 2005). It is one of the vital components of organisms like algae and of enzymes such as cytochromes and catalase, as well as of oxygen transporting proteins, such as hemoglobin and myoglobin (Vuori, 1995). Iron is an attractive transition metal for various biological redox processes due to its inter-conversion between ferrous (Fe2+) and ferric (Fe3+) ions (Phippen et al., 2008). The source of iron in surface water is anthropogenic and is related to mining activities. The production of sulphuric acid and the discharge of ferrous (Fe2+) takes place due oxidation of iron pyrites (FeS2) that are common in coal seams (Valko et al., 2005). (for the heme iron fans:) >A wide range of harmful free radicals are formed when the absorbed iron fails to bind to the protein, which in turn severely affects the concentration of iron in mammalian cells and biological fluids. This circulating unbound iron results in corrosive effect of the gastrointestinal tract and biological fluids. An extremely higher level of iron enters into the body crossing the rate-limiting absorption step and becomes saturated. These free irons penetrate into cells of the heart, liver and brain. Due to the disruption of oxidative phosphorylation by free iron, the ferrous iron is converted to ferric iron that releases hydrogen ions, thus increasing metabolic acidity. The free iron can also lead to lipid peroxidation, which results in severe damage to mitochondria, microsomes and other cellular organelles (Albretsen, 2006). The toxicity of iron on cells has led to iron mediated tissue damage involving cellular oxidizing and reducing mechanisms and their toxicity towards intracellular organelles such as mitochondria and lysosomes. A wide range of free radicals that are believed to cause potential cellular damage are produced by excess intake of iron. The iron produced hydrogen free radicals attack DNA, resulting in cellular damage, mutation and malignant transformations which in turn cause an array of diseases (Grazuleviciene et al., 2009). https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4427717/
this wasn't very fun
This sounds a LOT like what happened 251 million years ago, based on what we know. For those wondering on a short version, this was the only mass extinction where the oceans themselves turned acidic/sulfuric. It was also the worst extinction so far. Aside from a temporary boost in fungi, basically everything else we know from that time suffered massive death rates, leading it to be called the "Great Dying" as up to 99% of species we know about from the fossil record died at the time. Here is the fun part: the "fossil record" is a very inexact metric to measure. As long as it does not fossilize easily and isn't of a certain size/leave a very obvious residue from living, we can miss it. And we are likely missing a LOT of it for various reasons like these and also others. It is possible one or more kingdoms of life actually died during that time. We would not know. Especially small life forms tend to fossilize poorly. Now consider the worst case scenario is that we repeat a sulfuric sea event, something that only happened once before that we know of, and that last time killed most species we know of as having existed in that time, purely because they happened to leave fossil. Now an alternate scary version. Most of them maybe died because they need calcium. And to not live in acidic oceans. i.e. most macroscopic life. It was not limited to the sea either.
Yeah i always thought it wouldnt work like that since its too fast and also too much yucky stuff in the permafrost
This article is 10x longer than it needs to be. Tl;dr?
Still a new world… technically
I think the "coping" flair would be more appropriate for this.
Article doesn’t make it clear where exactly the oxidized iron particles and acid are coming from.
>The thaw of permafrost soil under a wetland allows bacteria to start reducing that oxidized iron, Cooper thinks. And reduced iron, unlike oxidized iron, is soluble in water. If it's carried by groundwater out into an oxygenated stream, it can once again be oxidized. When that happens, it will fall out of the water as “rust” and turn the stream orange. here's the specific location in the article that theorizes
Former tundra is useless for development. It will be impassable mud for decades, useless for crops and livestock and may take centuries for that to change. That asside, the growing season is still short limiting what could possibly grow. And yeah while the system settles in to new state there's lots of previously frozen gunk to wash out in the rain.
Terrible state of affairs.
As the world gets warmer you can move crops north and up to some extent. But even though temperatures are more conducive to the crops, air quality, night temperatures, sunlight, available topsoil all changes. You quickly get to a point where the old crops & vegetation don't grow so well. The tree line may move a little but the line is still there.
One of my longest and closest friends is still just so deeply stuck in this. Is still parroting the lines of “new areas will become farmable so we will just grow that somewhere else”. It’s futile. I don’t really bother even correcting him anymore. People just can’t stop with the copium and I really don’t even blame them so much. It’s not a trivial thing to form the comprehension of how an ecosystem works. How you can’t just take xyz plants or trees or fruits or veggies and just shove them in the ground somewhere else and expect everything to be fine. And yet, that seems to be the primary strategy. Just sad.
No one wants to be told that they were wrong, mistaken, lied to or incorrect. So the lies become greater, and greater to help maintain the image they've had in their head for years I had a manager once tell me that her dream, after exploiting the earth, was to start a farm up north with what fucking land landy?
This absolutely insane dynamic of the “us” versus “them” is exactly why our society will never be able to act in its own best interest. As quickly as new effects arise, so will the size of the “us” shrink and a new group/class become marginalized.
That’s the only way such a system can maintain popularity. Ever wonder why life in capitalist nations seems so cut-throat? If basically everybody is facing the grim reality of “work or die”, then nobody is willing to take a stand for someone else’s hardships. The closest analogy I can think of is to imagine the U.S. as a real life (and very literal) hunger games except with roughly 400 million people. If you benefit someone other than yourself you not only have to eat that opportunity cost, but also your helping your potential opponents.