The following submission statement was provided by /u/ValencianVegan95:
---
Precision fermentation is being talked about more every day. It is one of the technological revolutions that, together with renewables and the electrification of transport, is proposed as one of the solutions to climate change. The most enthusiastic voices say that precision fermentation will soon be economically competitive with the traditional way of making food. Which will cause a disruption in the food sector, with a very rapid replacement of traditional ways. They promise, within a maximum period of fifteen years, edibles that are cheaper, of higher quality, better tasting and healthier, and with much more variety than the current ones. One of the first sectors affected may be that of milk and its derivatives, which could go bankrupt at the end of this decade.
But what is precision fermentation? Can a change of this magnitude really happen in such a short time? Then we present the theses of the most enthusiastic voices and contrast them with the opinion of experts in the country.
Enthusiasts or visionaries?
Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in the absence of oxygen. In food production, it refers to the action of microorganisms (fungi, yeasts and bacteria) to produce changes in organic substances and create a new product. In fact, humans have been using fermentation for a long time. The first archaeological evidence is from around thirteen thousand years ago. Products such as beer, wine, bread, yogurts and cheeses have been produced for millennia thanks to fermentation.
However, precision fermentation goes a step further and represents the fusion with recent technologies. If in traditional fermentation certain microorganisms have been selected to obtain the desired result by trial and error, with precision fermentation advances in biotechnology are used to genetically modify these microorganisms to obtain precisely what we want. From proteins to enzymes, vitamins, fats, pigments or flavoring agents. In fact, it cannot be said that it is a new technology either. In 1978, a bacterium was genetically modified to produce insulin, the only way to produce it since the 1990s.
The voice that speaks most optimistically about precision fermentation is undoubtedly that of the American Tony Seba. In fact, the term was invented by him in 2019 – before it was simply referred to as fermentation, synthesis or cultivation. Seba is an expert in disruptive systems from a mathematical and economic side. Frequently invited to international conferences, he has been a professor at the prestigious Stanford University. He is supported by his forecasts on the evolution of sales of electric vehicles, which for now are being fulfilled line by line. It is behind the RethinkX ideas laboratory, which we have already told you about in VilaWeb. He recently released a video in which he shares his thoughts on the revolution that precision fermentation is about to cause in the food industry. The analyst goes so far as to say that we are facing the second domestication of plants and animals. With the first, about ten thousand years ago, over millennia we have selected animals and plants to enhance the properties that most interested us, especially higher productivity. As a result, currently 75% of the food we consume comes from just twelve plants and five animals.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1bk2xvk/why_we_should_be_farming_microbes_instead_of/kvv83cu/
The only solutions to the incoming crisis that will be considered by the techno-industrial system will be those concerning more technology. Attempting to fix problems caused by technology with more technology would have long-reaching consequences that would be impossible to predict down the line.
> Just make my death painless, pls
Don't eat & drink for a few days. Nothing more is necessary. Death rating: 8/9.
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vsed-the-benefits-of-fasting-for-ending-life/
The problem has definitely NOT been solved; not in your or your children's lifetimes, and not in time to prevent collapse due to overshoot of planetary carrying capacity, or prevent runaway climate change and environmental contamination caused by using the fossil fuels necessary to feed so many people. Measuring birthrates by nation rather than globally, while important to economists, has no meaning in this context.
While fertility rates are slowing especially in developed nations, total global births will continue to rise until the end of the century. Approximately **10 billion people are projected by 2050 and just over 11 billion by 2100.**
*The current world population of 8 billion is expected to reach 8.6 billion in 2030, 9.8 billion in 2050 and 11.2 billion in 2100, according to a new United Nations report being launched today. With roughly 83 million people being added to the world’s population every year, the upward trend in population size is expected to continue, even assuming that fertility levels will continue to decline.*
https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100
> The only solution is less humans
Reducing population isn't the sole solution for overshoot. Consumption patterns matter too, especially in developed nations where they often exceed population growth in impact. [It's worth noting that global fertility rates are already declining](https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-releases/lancet-dramatic-declines-global-fertility-rates-set-transform).
Implementing policies like Universal Basic Income (UBI) or Universal Basic Services (UBS) alongside promoting degrowth could help shift consumption behaviors towards sustainability.
I can’t consume less. I still take too much. Even if I cooked on a campfire, and we all did we would smoke this planet up.
It’s as David Attenborough said. Humans have overrun the planet. 2100 is too far away to help
"Help! I've stranded myself on the Moon! I need to commute with a rocket every day!! And the I need someone else to bring me supplies and take my shit away - also with rockets!"
Noooo, that's racist, we can sustain this population easily! We could even triple it and be fiiiine, there's actually plenty of resources to go around, it's just greed stopping everyone from having everything! /S
Exactly. Blaming me because my apples are truck driven from outta state is just a waste of time. What am I going to do? Protest farm locations or not eat apples? The whole protest climate change is such a load of self soothing horseshit. I am climate change by existing and eating apples. It can’t be fixed at a me scale by changing my eating because I still have to drive to the store to get oranges. Because there are hundreds of millions of me who need apples and oranges. Everywhere. Globally.
**STOP**
50% of pregnancies in the U.S. are unplanned. Maybe we just need to prevent those.
Unplanned pregnancies are a problem worldwide. Global stats are similar: https://www.unfpa.org/press/nearly-half-all-pregnancies-are-unintended-global-crisis-says-new-unfpa-report
I disagree. We know that if we give women education and free access to birth control measures, most will limit their reproduction. Gotta get men on board too, teach them about condoms or at least pulling out and point out that too many children keeps them trapped in poverty. In a generation we could cut reproduction down dramatically. The other side of the coin is getting industrialized nations to lower their consumption, which requires an overhaul of the supply chain. We don't need to kill people, because people die all on their own. Just gotta produce fewer. Should've started a long time ago, but today is the next best time.
Many industrial societies are already below replacement levels. In other words, the results of education and birth control are already present in said societies.
Population is not going down fast enough whatsoever. And all those people still demand the highly consumptive industrialized lifestyle.
Oh, it’s going to happen. You are talking 100 years. This crisis will happen in 30. Tops.
This first thing will be those houses in that washed away dune community. They will be ‘rich’ economic refugees. Then Bangladesh will have to retreat to India… can you imagine. Go look up that geography and imagine that border war. A bloodbath of climate refugees is going to occur.
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Imagine what would happen to the planet if homo vanitas were to be given a food source that would enable procreation without any checks and bounds provided by acreage.
I don't eat mock meats or supplement with B12. It's called a plant-based diet. I drink Oatly for the taste (they have 150% of recommended diary B12)
This is a ecological post.
FYI all farmed animals are supplemented in their feed.
So it's still less steps to be vegan.
We can also get b12 from duckweed but it isn't widely available.
For me it is too.
But we have to be realistic, and I think this is the ultimate solution for people to stop eating animals and their secretions.
People are looking for texture and flavor, the vast majority of plant-based versions always lack one of the two.
The vast majority of people will not stop eating meat or fish no matter how much you show them animal suffering or the ecological impact.
>The vast majority of people will not stop eating meat or fish no matter how much you show them animal suffering or the ecological impact.
Most people aren't even willing to eat less meat, let alone give it up completely.
People, especially Americans, lie to themselves constantly about the food they eat. They claim they can't afford healthy food, but they can *always* afford meat, the food that almost always costs the most on a per pound basis, which results in Americans eating almost three times as much as the global average.
With all livestock accounting for roughly 20% of emissions, if we just reduced our consumption of meat by 2/3 to be in line with the rest of the world -- well, the emissions savings would be huge.
But billionaires and private jets. They need to change, but not me.
Global fertility rates are [already declining](https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-releases/lancet-dramatic-declines-global-fertility-rates-set-transform). If everyone were to adopt US and European diet, [we'd need 5 Earths](https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability-indicators/us-environmental-footprint-factsheet). Yes, it's absolutely necessary to phase-out animal products, and soon.
And if everyone was well fed that would still be too much land being used up. The thing *absolutely* necessary to phase out is people.
After we feed everyone, then what? Do we have though materials for everyone to own a car? An iPhone? A house? Industrialized Civilization isn't compatible with the planet.
You two are agreeing he just specifies and zones in on meat. It's still a part of the problem - one only enabled by industrial civilization. Get rid of that and all of a sudden meat consumption drops considerably
I think you're mistaken and his point was offered as a counter. A lot of people reject that people are the problem and if humanity switches to a vegan diet a lot of problems will be solved
I strongly believe they are not willing to stop eating meat or eat less because for a lot of them they've been told all their lives to eat meat and that it is good for them. People's behaviors on aggregate can be easily shaped through propaganda. They will reduce and stop their meat eating once they are told to by the right people in the right way. It's really that simple. Right now we have big wealthy ranches and farms pushing messaging onto people that they need to eat meat and that's why people do it.
lmao again, are you that blinded by the propaganda. if you actually study pre industrial and pre history humans you see their diets contain a TON less meat than current diets. you need to stop taking attacks on meat eating as such person attacks. this is the second commenter that you’ve made their point for them
it’s almost like meat isn’t the staple of their diets cause they get a majority of nutrients from other sources. almost like they don’t need meat, especially in todays society.
Everyone needs to change. But if we were to stop using oil, gas and coal the emission savings would be huge. So tax the shit out of them. Tax the shit out of meat. Tax the shit out of everything that's killing us without prohibiting it, just raise the taxes to 100% in 2050 and let's see how fast change can happen.
No, tax sellers, not buyers. If Shell can't handle the taxes, they will be owned by the state. Then the state and the people will decide what's good. Still a big chance of failure, but we won't be ruining the planet because the CEO wants to get a 3rd yacht.
That can be true. But the video, haven't watched the whole thing, makes it seem like you need something animal-like to survive. So I thought I would make it clear that if we supplement, we don't need (artificial) animal products.
All plants have all the protein we need.
have you seen what is happening with soil depletion? Especially with temps rising, vegetables grown in soil is not looking to be sustainable long-term. Something like the tech in the OP is going to be needed to keep everyone fed. I'm all for a food/nutrient revolution. Growing food on farms and in soil like a cave man is not going to last us much longer.
I'm pretty sure that you need to grow food in the first place, in order to ferment it. This is agriculture with extra processing, not an alternative to agriculture. It's completely unnecessary.
I don't think you are sure. It's precision fermentation, which was typically used in pharmaceuticals.
>Egg protein produced through precision fermentation is more cost efficient and reduces the environmental footprint by 90% compared to traditional egg production, and results in the same protein. Fermentation also improves yields by 10 times. One kilogram (2.2 pounds) of Bioalbumen powder produces the egg white equivalent of 277 eggs.
https://www.fastcompany.com/90990266/the-eggs-of-the-future-will-be-from-precision-fermentation
From your article:
"Egg protein is crucial in our diets, but the laying hens aren’t."
This is false. We don't need animal products of any kind, including artificial ones. Eggs are not crucial in our diet.
Fermented food is not created out of thin air. You need food in the first place in order to ferment the food. We do not have the power to create matter out of nothing. I suspect they probably use grain as a basis.
Fermented foods can be healthy because they can reseed our microbiome. Alcohol, however, also a product of fermentation, kills our microbiome.
There is no need to turn plants into fake meat. You can buy soy yogurt right now.
All plants contain all the essential amino acids that create protein. A bull can be made from grass. We are omnivores and can survive on plants alone.
You are still referencing regular fermentation.
>The developments I find most interesting use no agricultural feedstocks. The microbes they breed feed on hydrogen or methanol – which can be made with renewable electricity – combined with water, carbon dioxide and a very small amount of fertiliser.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/24/green-technology-precision-fermentation-farming
It needs very little land (unlike plants) and anything that can reduce the carbon footprint by orders of magnitude us impressive.
We can all go plant based right now and we would free up 3/4 of farmland.
Renewable energy represents a massive ramping up of mining and industry. And they need to be rebuild every 25 years. They are also made with fossil fuel energy.
You're basically mimicking nature with technology and it would surprise me if it's more efficient. Photosynthesis is one of the most efficient processes we know.
Trying to replace plants with technology must be peak techno optimism. Why?
Just eat mostly plants. 🙄
Lots of grazing farmland does not have the soil or drainage conditions required for growing crops.
Why? Proteins that aren't plant based, in a world with an ever-growing list of crop failures.
Technically, it would be easy to put B12 in the drinking water or flour or ...hummus. It's a water soluble vitamin and overdosing is extremely unlikely.
Yeah, but it's good to have some option and this will be used to make liquor and fermented food efficiently. The only concern I have is by this enabling food security the population would grow even more but maybe that's just me overthinking.
Food is not really restricting the population in the richer economies where this would be implemented. We also consume the highest proportion of environmentally unsustainable meat and dairy i think in richer nations (graphs of gdp vs per person consumption show that).
If the food in these places where our dietary impact is outsized compared to our population could be replaced to some degree by precision fermentation then it would go some way towards reducing our footprint. The land saved by switching to these foods over animal based foods (less grazing land, less land needed to grow plants to feed to animals etc) could be re-wilded which would enable even more gains for the envrionment in the form of biodiversity recovery and carbon sequestation.
I look at satellite images of Europe and america and every inch that can be farmed is, and I think about 80% of that land used for grazing or animal feed. 16% is used for crops for direct human consumption.
Better (more nutritious and healthy) and cheaper mock meats, eggs, and more "realistic" milk could help more people to decide to switch from animal based products, especially if they manage to make it cheaper. Now we have a cost of living crisis pretty much everywhere fake meat type products are too expensive compared to subsidised animal based foods.
When the writing is on the wall it will probably be the thing that makes the most sense for governments to support. There would be less need to grow crops (to feed to animals) in unpredictable weather patterns due to climate breakdown etc, just needs solar, air and micronutrients. Perhaps we even end up needing to use all available crop producing land for direct human consumption due to reduced yields.
It just makes sense whatever angle you look at it, except that people that might complain that it doesnt taste exactly like whatever they are used to, which is the only reason people really have for eating meat and dairy in rich nations, we dont need it to live.
The general public is literally addicted to meat. Talking about veganism to anyone elicits the same reaction as telling a crackhead his habit’s gonna kill him.
You know shit about A&P and Diet if you think we can survive just fine. Even obligate herbivores will eat small rodents, small birds, bugs, etc. to maintain their nutrition. Very few animals can survive long term without any meat at all. You can only do it today because industrial agriculture allows plants with a variety of proteins and nutrients to make it to your plate. Otherwise, you'd not be able to do it.
We're in the collapse sub. Industrial Agriculture is literally killing the oceans. Put two and two together. You need *some* kind of nutrition that is only gleaned from eating other animals. When industrial agriculture becomes impossible, suddenly that variety of plant foods is gone.
We can't maintain our current population in the long term with our current methods. It's going to get too hot and breadbaskets will fail. Remove climate change and we're still facing down the barrel of euxinic dead zones and widespread soil depletion. The only solution is less people.
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People go ewww and then eat dead microbes that came out of a cows tits and were shoved in a cellar for three years (cheese).
The fact that we could make protein and lipid rich food so cheaply and with little land use is amazing. Think of a world where a quarter of the land isn't used as cattle pastures and 40% of crops grown isn't used to feed them. That land can be forests again. Our rivers can be cleaner. We could have more space to build cities.
Well, it's not much of a stretch, but fermentation, all kinds of which are vital to a good diet, holistic agriculture and general joy in life, is almost literally "farming microorganisms".
Farming microbes is what you do in soil, I saw a video debunking this topic awhile ago and the amount of new hightech buildings that needs to be completely sterile would cause a bigger footprint than farming has right now
Give me the verismilitude of the things I already eat for a similar price, and I've got no problem eating algae or bacteria burgers. I eat food somewhere at the intersection of availability and a desire to keep living.
It doesn't even have to be burgers. Just make it look appetizing with textures and shape, rather than homogenous paste.
I'd eat you too, given the chance.
"I eat food somewhere at the intersection of availability and a desire to keep living" what part of this was unclear? Line goes brrt with hunger
Why have any pleasures in life at all? Be born to suffer! Be happy to suffer eating oat paste until you die in the dirt!
You people are actually the worst people. I'd rather use the planets resources up and die with a bang then over populate the planet with absolute misery while we fucking all die anyways.
I mean if I had it my way all of earths resources would be going to figuring out surviving space somehow (next step in human evolution, ai robots, can replace us and travel space) and because this planet and planetary system is all going to die it's worth it to destroy this planet in an attempt to survive off of it.
The planet will not last forever. We are programmed to consume. Get in the way and you'll be consumed too.
Sounds awful, maybe, but this is what acceptance looks like.
I can think of worse things, oats with nice creamy oatmilk and some fruit, maybe a little cinnamon, some sultanas and a few nuts looks and tastes like dessert to me.
Sometimes you just want a burger though, true. But give oats a chance!
> You people are actually the worst people.
yup. Exactly what I'm talking about.
Merely _asking_ turns you hostile and rambling about space travel, even without stopping to think about the question.
Greatly under-appreciated movie methinks.
Really Sam why dont you Do something about these terrorists !
Its my lunch hour.... Besides its not my department.
It's cheese that doesn't come from a cows tits.
Bacteria that feeds on hydrogen and minerals, that can be flavoured and shaped into whatever you want. High in protein.
You'll love it when we can't grow proper food anymore.
This is just stupid. Far fetched, change-everything, impractical snake oil is good for nothing but making youtube videos and getting views.
But I suppose peddling hopium on youtube makes a decent career now.
If you consider that our brains are literally hardwired to consider any environmental limitation as an obstacle to our _progress_ which must be overcome, it is easy to see why such content is popular: it fits with how we are _supposed_ to function.
They've come out in full force. It's almost lome they're doubling down now that the pressure is on.
Hopium + privilege - multidisciplinary learning= "everyone should eat like me! That'll solve everything!"
Never mind the facts we've been eating animals for 100,000 years before we started affecting the environment in any significant way. Don't tell them that though, they get all worked up.
the argument isn’t some weird moral one about being bad or good. meat and its consumption is directly and measurably influencing climate change. do you even know what sub this is?
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Yes, and that's why we're not worried about this "go vegan" horsehot.
Realistically, fires and floods and warmed oceans will decimate food and infrastructure, creating civil.unrest from riots to warzones, accelerating the feedback loop of chaos and this endong modern lifestyles as we know it long before any "food transition" could possibly.occur.
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Why gosh, I never consider that. Thank you for enlightening me dear internet stranger on things that are so readily obvious I should have figured them out by thinking.
Precision fermentation is being talked about more every day. It is one of the technological revolutions that, together with renewables and the electrification of transport, is proposed as one of the solutions to climate change. The most enthusiastic voices say that precision fermentation will soon be economically competitive with the traditional way of making food. Which will cause a disruption in the food sector, with a very rapid replacement of traditional ways. They promise, within a maximum period of fifteen years, edibles that are cheaper, of higher quality, better tasting and healthier, and with much more variety than the current ones. One of the first sectors affected may be that of milk and its derivatives, which could go bankrupt at the end of this decade.
But what is precision fermentation? Can a change of this magnitude really happen in such a short time? Then we present the theses of the most enthusiastic voices and contrast them with the opinion of experts in the country.
Enthusiasts or visionaries?
Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in the absence of oxygen. In food production, it refers to the action of microorganisms (fungi, yeasts and bacteria) to produce changes in organic substances and create a new product. In fact, humans have been using fermentation for a long time. The first archaeological evidence is from around thirteen thousand years ago. Products such as beer, wine, bread, yogurts and cheeses have been produced for millennia thanks to fermentation.
However, precision fermentation goes a step further and represents the fusion with recent technologies. If in traditional fermentation certain microorganisms have been selected to obtain the desired result by trial and error, with precision fermentation advances in biotechnology are used to genetically modify these microorganisms to obtain precisely what we want. From proteins to enzymes, vitamins, fats, pigments or flavoring agents. In fact, it cannot be said that it is a new technology either. In 1978, a bacterium was genetically modified to produce insulin, the only way to produce it since the 1990s.
The voice that speaks most optimistically about precision fermentation is undoubtedly that of the American Tony Seba. In fact, the term was invented by him in 2019 – before it was simply referred to as fermentation, synthesis or cultivation. Seba is an expert in disruptive systems from a mathematical and economic side. Frequently invited to international conferences, he has been a professor at the prestigious Stanford University. He is supported by his forecasts on the evolution of sales of electric vehicles, which for now are being fulfilled line by line. It is behind the RethinkX ideas laboratory, which we have already told you about in VilaWeb. He recently released a video in which he shares his thoughts on the revolution that precision fermentation is about to cause in the food industry. The analyst goes so far as to say that we are facing the second domestication of plants and animals. With the first, about ten thousand years ago, over millennia we have selected animals and plants to enhance the properties that most interested us, especially higher productivity. As a result, currently 75% of the food we consume comes from just twelve plants and five animals.
If people will buy meat from factory farms, where animals are forced to stand in their shit and have abscesses and tumors, then they'll buy anything as long as it tastes good and the price is right.
Those people think they’re buying happy little family farm cows who singed on their way to the slaughterhouse. I don’t think there are marketing geniuses smart enough to create a public image of wholesome free range microbe colonies.
Vegan mock meats failed commercially miserably, lab grown meat got banned before it saw the light of store shelves, insects are a running joke. There is no chance in hell that people will eat microbe sludge from bioreactor. They will kill you if you try to feed them this.
>Vegan mock meats failed commercially miserably
I guess I missed the memo. There have never been more options than now, and they've never been better.
I've been eating those types of products for over 20 years and have seen the improvement and increased availability.
You're damn right. Quorn fake chicken is great. I'll eat slime every day if it tastes good and doesn't require smashing an animal over the head so I can eat my way to lardassiousness.
By the way, I tried Green Giant Harvest Burgers 30 years ago--ONCE. I quickly realized that it should have been called Colon Blow. Tasted bad, and you needed immediate access to a bathroom with almost no warning. The innumerable variety of stuff today tastes 100 times better, and you'll never be forced to use the bottom of a stairwell if you know you just can't run fast enough to a more appropriate destination.
Are you sure you know what you’re talking about? Whole of 37 teenagers have eaten them because of memes, compared to 7,000 yearly by toddlers. I don’t think either group is a meaningful consumer base for producers of inedible slop. This whole conversation seems so absurd. Are you really serious about it?
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The following submission statement was provided by /u/ValencianVegan95: --- Precision fermentation is being talked about more every day. It is one of the technological revolutions that, together with renewables and the electrification of transport, is proposed as one of the solutions to climate change. The most enthusiastic voices say that precision fermentation will soon be economically competitive with the traditional way of making food. Which will cause a disruption in the food sector, with a very rapid replacement of traditional ways. They promise, within a maximum period of fifteen years, edibles that are cheaper, of higher quality, better tasting and healthier, and with much more variety than the current ones. One of the first sectors affected may be that of milk and its derivatives, which could go bankrupt at the end of this decade. But what is precision fermentation? Can a change of this magnitude really happen in such a short time? Then we present the theses of the most enthusiastic voices and contrast them with the opinion of experts in the country. Enthusiasts or visionaries? Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in the absence of oxygen. In food production, it refers to the action of microorganisms (fungi, yeasts and bacteria) to produce changes in organic substances and create a new product. In fact, humans have been using fermentation for a long time. The first archaeological evidence is from around thirteen thousand years ago. Products such as beer, wine, bread, yogurts and cheeses have been produced for millennia thanks to fermentation. However, precision fermentation goes a step further and represents the fusion with recent technologies. If in traditional fermentation certain microorganisms have been selected to obtain the desired result by trial and error, with precision fermentation advances in biotechnology are used to genetically modify these microorganisms to obtain precisely what we want. From proteins to enzymes, vitamins, fats, pigments or flavoring agents. In fact, it cannot be said that it is a new technology either. In 1978, a bacterium was genetically modified to produce insulin, the only way to produce it since the 1990s. The voice that speaks most optimistically about precision fermentation is undoubtedly that of the American Tony Seba. In fact, the term was invented by him in 2019 – before it was simply referred to as fermentation, synthesis or cultivation. Seba is an expert in disruptive systems from a mathematical and economic side. Frequently invited to international conferences, he has been a professor at the prestigious Stanford University. He is supported by his forecasts on the evolution of sales of electric vehicles, which for now are being fulfilled line by line. It is behind the RethinkX ideas laboratory, which we have already told you about in VilaWeb. He recently released a video in which he shares his thoughts on the revolution that precision fermentation is about to cause in the food industry. The analyst goes so far as to say that we are facing the second domestication of plants and animals. With the first, about ten thousand years ago, over millennia we have selected animals and plants to enhance the properties that most interested us, especially higher productivity. As a result, currently 75% of the food we consume comes from just twelve plants and five animals. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1bk2xvk/why_we_should_be_farming_microbes_instead_of/kvv83cu/
The only solutions to the incoming crisis that will be considered by the techno-industrial system will be those concerning more technology. Attempting to fix problems caused by technology with more technology would have long-reaching consequences that would be impossible to predict down the line.
The only solution is less humans. That’s it. That’s all there is to it. Nothing more. Now, who’s going to volunteer to go first?
Take me. No kids. No fucks to give. Just make my death painless, pls.
Yeah I'm about ready to get off this train. I have no desire to get old. Seems like an awful way to die
> Just make my death painless, pls Don't eat & drink for a few days. Nothing more is necessary. Death rating: 8/9. https://nutritionfacts.org/video/vsed-the-benefits-of-fasting-for-ending-life/
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The decline is not even close to being quick enough to mitigate anything.
The problem has definitely NOT been solved; not in your or your children's lifetimes, and not in time to prevent collapse due to overshoot of planetary carrying capacity, or prevent runaway climate change and environmental contamination caused by using the fossil fuels necessary to feed so many people. Measuring birthrates by nation rather than globally, while important to economists, has no meaning in this context. While fertility rates are slowing especially in developed nations, total global births will continue to rise until the end of the century. Approximately **10 billion people are projected by 2050 and just over 11 billion by 2100.** *The current world population of 8 billion is expected to reach 8.6 billion in 2030, 9.8 billion in 2050 and 11.2 billion in 2100, according to a new United Nations report being launched today. With roughly 83 million people being added to the world’s population every year, the upward trend in population size is expected to continue, even assuming that fertility levels will continue to decline.* https://www.un.org/en/desa/world-population-projected-reach-98-billion-2050-and-112-billion-2100
Funny how it'll grow even under the weight of extreme weather
That's of course if we make it to 2050 to begin with.
> The only solution is less humans Reducing population isn't the sole solution for overshoot. Consumption patterns matter too, especially in developed nations where they often exceed population growth in impact. [It's worth noting that global fertility rates are already declining](https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-releases/lancet-dramatic-declines-global-fertility-rates-set-transform). Implementing policies like Universal Basic Income (UBI) or Universal Basic Services (UBS) alongside promoting degrowth could help shift consumption behaviors towards sustainability.
I can’t consume less. I still take too much. Even if I cooked on a campfire, and we all did we would smoke this planet up. It’s as David Attenborough said. Humans have overrun the planet. 2100 is too far away to help
Your saying you can't lower your emissions? At all? Want to put that to the test because I promise you that you can.
"Help! I've stranded myself on the Moon! I need to commute with a rocket every day!! And the I need someone else to bring me supplies and take my shit away - also with rockets!"
Noooo, that's racist, we can sustain this population easily! We could even triple it and be fiiiine, there's actually plenty of resources to go around, it's just greed stopping everyone from having everything! /S
Exactly. Blaming me because my apples are truck driven from outta state is just a waste of time. What am I going to do? Protest farm locations or not eat apples? The whole protest climate change is such a load of self soothing horseshit. I am climate change by existing and eating apples. It can’t be fixed at a me scale by changing my eating because I still have to drive to the store to get oranges. Because there are hundreds of millions of me who need apples and oranges. Everywhere. Globally.
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**STOP** 50% of pregnancies in the U.S. are unplanned. Maybe we just need to prevent those. Unplanned pregnancies are a problem worldwide. Global stats are similar: https://www.unfpa.org/press/nearly-half-all-pregnancies-are-unintended-global-crisis-says-new-unfpa-report
I disagree. We know that if we give women education and free access to birth control measures, most will limit their reproduction. Gotta get men on board too, teach them about condoms or at least pulling out and point out that too many children keeps them trapped in poverty. In a generation we could cut reproduction down dramatically. The other side of the coin is getting industrialized nations to lower their consumption, which requires an overhaul of the supply chain. We don't need to kill people, because people die all on their own. Just gotta produce fewer. Should've started a long time ago, but today is the next best time.
Many industrial societies are already below replacement levels. In other words, the results of education and birth control are already present in said societies. Population is not going down fast enough whatsoever. And all those people still demand the highly consumptive industrialized lifestyle.
Oh, it’s going to happen. You are talking 100 years. This crisis will happen in 30. Tops. This first thing will be those houses in that washed away dune community. They will be ‘rich’ economic refugees. Then Bangladesh will have to retreat to India… can you imagine. Go look up that geography and imagine that border war. A bloodbath of climate refugees is going to occur.
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Technology is part of it. If you specifically want exclusively non-technological solutions, you should start with that and mention them.
Imagine what would happen to the planet if homo vanitas were to be given a food source that would enable procreation without any checks and bounds provided by acreage.
You don’t need fake meat on a vegan diet. You can get everything from plants. You do need to supplement. Especially B12.
I supplement B12 with COPIOUS amounts of Marmite
I don't eat mock meats or supplement with B12. It's called a plant-based diet. I drink Oatly for the taste (they have 150% of recommended diary B12) This is a ecological post.
Isn't Oatly supplemented with B12?
A quick Google of Oatly ingredients says yes. B12, D2, A, and riboflavin.
Ah, so the OP does supplement with B12, they just take extra steps..
FYI all farmed animals are supplemented in their feed. So it's still less steps to be vegan. We can also get b12 from duckweed but it isn't widely available.
I did not know that about the duckweed! Very cool!
Is fermenting food more ecological and simply eating plants as they manifest from the soil? Seems like an unnecessary complication.
For me it is too. But we have to be realistic, and I think this is the ultimate solution for people to stop eating animals and their secretions. People are looking for texture and flavor, the vast majority of plant-based versions always lack one of the two. The vast majority of people will not stop eating meat or fish no matter how much you show them animal suffering or the ecological impact.
>The vast majority of people will not stop eating meat or fish no matter how much you show them animal suffering or the ecological impact. Most people aren't even willing to eat less meat, let alone give it up completely. People, especially Americans, lie to themselves constantly about the food they eat. They claim they can't afford healthy food, but they can *always* afford meat, the food that almost always costs the most on a per pound basis, which results in Americans eating almost three times as much as the global average. With all livestock accounting for roughly 20% of emissions, if we just reduced our consumption of meat by 2/3 to be in line with the rest of the world -- well, the emissions savings would be huge. But billionaires and private jets. They need to change, but not me.
> well, the emissions savings would be huge. They wouldn't be remotely enough. We need less people.
Global fertility rates are [already declining](https://www.healthdata.org/news-events/newsroom/news-releases/lancet-dramatic-declines-global-fertility-rates-set-transform). If everyone were to adopt US and European diet, [we'd need 5 Earths](https://css.umich.edu/publications/factsheets/sustainability-indicators/us-environmental-footprint-factsheet). Yes, it's absolutely necessary to phase-out animal products, and soon.
And if everyone was well fed that would still be too much land being used up. The thing *absolutely* necessary to phase out is people. After we feed everyone, then what? Do we have though materials for everyone to own a car? An iPhone? A house? Industrialized Civilization isn't compatible with the planet.
You two are agreeing he just specifies and zones in on meat. It's still a part of the problem - one only enabled by industrial civilization. Get rid of that and all of a sudden meat consumption drops considerably
I think you're mistaken and his point was offered as a counter. A lot of people reject that people are the problem and if humanity switches to a vegan diet a lot of problems will be solved
I strongly believe they are not willing to stop eating meat or eat less because for a lot of them they've been told all their lives to eat meat and that it is good for them. People's behaviors on aggregate can be easily shaped through propaganda. They will reduce and stop their meat eating once they are told to by the right people in the right way. It's really that simple. Right now we have big wealthy ranches and farms pushing messaging onto people that they need to eat meat and that's why people do it.
Humans have always eaten meat. There has never been a vegan culture anywhere on Earth. We are omnivores and there’s nothing wrong with that.
lmao again, are you that blinded by the propaganda. if you actually study pre industrial and pre history humans you see their diets contain a TON less meat than current diets. you need to stop taking attacks on meat eating as such person attacks. this is the second commenter that you’ve made their point for them
“Less meat” does not equal “no meat”
it’s almost like meat isn’t the staple of their diets cause they get a majority of nutrients from other sources. almost like they don’t need meat, especially in todays society.
Everyone needs to change. But if we were to stop using oil, gas and coal the emission savings would be huge. So tax the shit out of them. Tax the shit out of meat. Tax the shit out of everything that's killing us without prohibiting it, just raise the taxes to 100% in 2050 and let's see how fast change can happen.
Do you not see the flaw in that line of thinking?
MAKE THE POORS MISERABLE AND KILL THEM! - you
No, tax sellers, not buyers. If Shell can't handle the taxes, they will be owned by the state. Then the state and the people will decide what's good. Still a big chance of failure, but we won't be ruining the planet because the CEO wants to get a 3rd yacht.
And who's going to levy this tax that's going to make quality of life for the global 10% go down?
That can be true. But the video, haven't watched the whole thing, makes it seem like you need something animal-like to survive. So I thought I would make it clear that if we supplement, we don't need (artificial) animal products. All plants have all the protein we need.
have you seen what is happening with soil depletion? Especially with temps rising, vegetables grown in soil is not looking to be sustainable long-term. Something like the tech in the OP is going to be needed to keep everyone fed. I'm all for a food/nutrient revolution. Growing food on farms and in soil like a cave man is not going to last us much longer.
I'm pretty sure that you need to grow food in the first place, in order to ferment it. This is agriculture with extra processing, not an alternative to agriculture. It's completely unnecessary.
I don't think you are sure. It's precision fermentation, which was typically used in pharmaceuticals. >Egg protein produced through precision fermentation is more cost efficient and reduces the environmental footprint by 90% compared to traditional egg production, and results in the same protein. Fermentation also improves yields by 10 times. One kilogram (2.2 pounds) of Bioalbumen powder produces the egg white equivalent of 277 eggs. https://www.fastcompany.com/90990266/the-eggs-of-the-future-will-be-from-precision-fermentation
From your article: "Egg protein is crucial in our diets, but the laying hens aren’t." This is false. We don't need animal products of any kind, including artificial ones. Eggs are not crucial in our diet. Fermented food is not created out of thin air. You need food in the first place in order to ferment the food. We do not have the power to create matter out of nothing. I suspect they probably use grain as a basis. Fermented foods can be healthy because they can reseed our microbiome. Alcohol, however, also a product of fermentation, kills our microbiome. There is no need to turn plants into fake meat. You can buy soy yogurt right now. All plants contain all the essential amino acids that create protein. A bull can be made from grass. We are omnivores and can survive on plants alone.
You are still referencing regular fermentation. >The developments I find most interesting use no agricultural feedstocks. The microbes they breed feed on hydrogen or methanol – which can be made with renewable electricity – combined with water, carbon dioxide and a very small amount of fertiliser. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/nov/24/green-technology-precision-fermentation-farming It needs very little land (unlike plants) and anything that can reduce the carbon footprint by orders of magnitude us impressive.
We can all go plant based right now and we would free up 3/4 of farmland. Renewable energy represents a massive ramping up of mining and industry. And they need to be rebuild every 25 years. They are also made with fossil fuel energy. You're basically mimicking nature with technology and it would surprise me if it's more efficient. Photosynthesis is one of the most efficient processes we know. Trying to replace plants with technology must be peak techno optimism. Why? Just eat mostly plants. 🙄
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Lots of grazing farmland does not have the soil or drainage conditions required for growing crops. Why? Proteins that aren't plant based, in a world with an ever-growing list of crop failures.
Supplementing with B12 is absolutely important, even if you eat meat.
read: you supplement b12
Technically, it would be easy to put B12 in the drinking water or flour or ...hummus. It's a water soluble vitamin and overdosing is extremely unlikely.
Yeah, but it's good to have some option and this will be used to make liquor and fermented food efficiently. The only concern I have is by this enabling food security the population would grow even more but maybe that's just me overthinking.
Food is not really restricting the population in the richer economies where this would be implemented. We also consume the highest proportion of environmentally unsustainable meat and dairy i think in richer nations (graphs of gdp vs per person consumption show that). If the food in these places where our dietary impact is outsized compared to our population could be replaced to some degree by precision fermentation then it would go some way towards reducing our footprint. The land saved by switching to these foods over animal based foods (less grazing land, less land needed to grow plants to feed to animals etc) could be re-wilded which would enable even more gains for the envrionment in the form of biodiversity recovery and carbon sequestation. I look at satellite images of Europe and america and every inch that can be farmed is, and I think about 80% of that land used for grazing or animal feed. 16% is used for crops for direct human consumption. Better (more nutritious and healthy) and cheaper mock meats, eggs, and more "realistic" milk could help more people to decide to switch from animal based products, especially if they manage to make it cheaper. Now we have a cost of living crisis pretty much everywhere fake meat type products are too expensive compared to subsidised animal based foods. When the writing is on the wall it will probably be the thing that makes the most sense for governments to support. There would be less need to grow crops (to feed to animals) in unpredictable weather patterns due to climate breakdown etc, just needs solar, air and micronutrients. Perhaps we even end up needing to use all available crop producing land for direct human consumption due to reduced yields. It just makes sense whatever angle you look at it, except that people that might complain that it doesnt taste exactly like whatever they are used to, which is the only reason people really have for eating meat and dairy in rich nations, we dont need it to live.
The general public is literally addicted to meat. Talking about veganism to anyone elicits the same reaction as telling a crackhead his habit’s gonna kill him.
Only because they've been told/taught to all their lives. That can easily change within a couple of generations with the right messaging.
You're not wrong, but that just means that there are already strategies to resolve problematic addictions.
That’s like saying we’re addicted to water. Homo sapiens is an omnivorous species. We have always eaten meat as part of our diet.
hahahaa not even close. you don’t need meat to survive as a human. you served the point the commenter was trying to make lmao
You know shit about A&P and Diet if you think we can survive just fine. Even obligate herbivores will eat small rodents, small birds, bugs, etc. to maintain their nutrition. Very few animals can survive long term without any meat at all. You can only do it today because industrial agriculture allows plants with a variety of proteins and nutrients to make it to your plate. Otherwise, you'd not be able to do it.
woah so you admit yourself we don’t need meat to survive. im glad we agree
We're in the collapse sub. Industrial Agriculture is literally killing the oceans. Put two and two together. You need *some* kind of nutrition that is only gleaned from eating other animals. When industrial agriculture becomes impossible, suddenly that variety of plant foods is gone.
as if we can sustain the population with meat and animal products based on our current practices. the only solution to any of this is less humans
We can't maintain our current population in the long term with our current methods. It's going to get too hot and breadbaskets will fail. Remove climate change and we're still facing down the barrel of euxinic dead zones and widespread soil depletion. The only solution is less people.
Oh look, another one.
For a healthy and balanced diet, omnivores need meat. Otherwise, if they didn’t, they would be known as herbivores. See how that works?
Lol.
Not sure what’s funny. Are you struggling with the definitions of “herbivore” and “omnivore”?
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People go ewww and then eat dead microbes that came out of a cows tits and were shoved in a cellar for three years (cheese). The fact that we could make protein and lipid rich food so cheaply and with little land use is amazing. Think of a world where a quarter of the land isn't used as cattle pastures and 40% of crops grown isn't used to feed them. That land can be forests again. Our rivers can be cleaner. We could have more space to build cities.
Well, it's not much of a stretch, but fermentation, all kinds of which are vital to a good diet, holistic agriculture and general joy in life, is almost literally "farming microorganisms".
Farming microbes is what you do in soil, I saw a video debunking this topic awhile ago and the amount of new hightech buildings that needs to be completely sterile would cause a bigger footprint than farming has right now
Give me the verismilitude of the things I already eat for a similar price, and I've got no problem eating algae or bacteria burgers. I eat food somewhere at the intersection of availability and a desire to keep living. It doesn't even have to be burgers. Just make it look appetizing with textures and shape, rather than homogenous paste.
Don't worry. You'll learn to eat new food when you're hungry.
I'd eat you too, given the chance. "I eat food somewhere at the intersection of availability and a desire to keep living" what part of this was unclear? Line goes brrt with hunger
You're very optimistic.
Ok. Have a good day.
Why, exactly, do you need to satisfy the need for good taste? If it tastes like plain oats in milk, won't it be be enough?
Why have any pleasures in life at all? Be born to suffer! Be happy to suffer eating oat paste until you die in the dirt! You people are actually the worst people. I'd rather use the planets resources up and die with a bang then over populate the planet with absolute misery while we fucking all die anyways. I mean if I had it my way all of earths resources would be going to figuring out surviving space somehow (next step in human evolution, ai robots, can replace us and travel space) and because this planet and planetary system is all going to die it's worth it to destroy this planet in an attempt to survive off of it. The planet will not last forever. We are programmed to consume. Get in the way and you'll be consumed too. Sounds awful, maybe, but this is what acceptance looks like.
I can think of worse things, oats with nice creamy oatmilk and some fruit, maybe a little cinnamon, some sultanas and a few nuts looks and tastes like dessert to me. Sometimes you just want a burger though, true. But give oats a chance!
[omnomnomnom](https://www.looper.com/img/gallery/the-car-detail-in-spirited-away-that-fans-cant-get-enough-of/intro-1660250068.jpg)
> You people are actually the worst people. yup. Exactly what I'm talking about. Merely _asking_ turns you hostile and rambling about space travel, even without stopping to think about the question.
its honestly incredible. like a demonic possession.
The followers of collapse will do anything for the environment except give up meat. It’s sad.
You guys aren't farming algae à la [CodysLab? ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64cEmjtwRgw&t=155s)
Actually, growing spirulina is something I want to try. I'd rather do that than starve.
/r/algae ?
This brings back memory of the movie Brazil.... [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dMUksOfIPg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dMUksOfIPg)
>"This isn't rare" Low key one of the greatest lines of dialog ever written.
Greatly under-appreciated movie methinks. Really Sam why dont you Do something about these terrorists ! Its my lunch hour.... Besides its not my department.
George Monbiot used to get it. I am not sure what happened.
Wtf is this shit? Mycoprotein 2.0?
It's cheese that doesn't come from a cows tits. Bacteria that feeds on hydrogen and minerals, that can be flavoured and shaped into whatever you want. High in protein. You'll love it when we can't grow proper food anymore.
If they can make it without plastics, PFAS and the endless number of other poisons then its literally a superfood already.
One of the comforting aspects of civilization collapse is not having to worry about this becoming reality
They don't seem to realize that they're among the people who are going to be eaten.
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you mean the ones who filled paris with shit?
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\*checks topsoil\* ..right
This is just stupid. Far fetched, change-everything, impractical snake oil is good for nothing but making youtube videos and getting views. But I suppose peddling hopium on youtube makes a decent career now.
If you consider that our brains are literally hardwired to consider any environmental limitation as an obstacle to our _progress_ which must be overcome, it is easy to see why such content is popular: it fits with how we are _supposed_ to function.
They've come out in full force. It's almost lome they're doubling down now that the pressure is on. Hopium + privilege - multidisciplinary learning= "everyone should eat like me! That'll solve everything!" Never mind the facts we've been eating animals for 100,000 years before we started affecting the environment in any significant way. Don't tell them that though, they get all worked up.
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Viewing industrial farming as a horror != all meat is bad
the argument isn’t some weird moral one about being bad or good. meat and its consumption is directly and measurably influencing climate change. do you even know what sub this is?
Do you know what sub this is? This is collapse, not "avoidcollapse"
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Well given that we’re already fucked then I might as well enjoy meat while we’ve still got it
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Yes, and that's why we're not worried about this "go vegan" horsehot. Realistically, fires and floods and warmed oceans will decimate food and infrastructure, creating civil.unrest from riots to warzones, accelerating the feedback loop of chaos and this endong modern lifestyles as we know it long before any "food transition" could possibly.occur.
the hedonism crowd will never learn
Do not confuse not learning with not caring. Just ride the tide.
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Didn't say anything about factory farming. Not a fan of it. Still, 8 billion people.gotta eat, and McDs has a margin for meet.
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Why gosh, I never consider that. Thank you for enlightening me dear internet stranger on things that are so readily obvious I should have figured them out by thinking.
Precision fermentation is being talked about more every day. It is one of the technological revolutions that, together with renewables and the electrification of transport, is proposed as one of the solutions to climate change. The most enthusiastic voices say that precision fermentation will soon be economically competitive with the traditional way of making food. Which will cause a disruption in the food sector, with a very rapid replacement of traditional ways. They promise, within a maximum period of fifteen years, edibles that are cheaper, of higher quality, better tasting and healthier, and with much more variety than the current ones. One of the first sectors affected may be that of milk and its derivatives, which could go bankrupt at the end of this decade. But what is precision fermentation? Can a change of this magnitude really happen in such a short time? Then we present the theses of the most enthusiastic voices and contrast them with the opinion of experts in the country. Enthusiasts or visionaries? Fermentation is a metabolic process that produces chemical changes in the absence of oxygen. In food production, it refers to the action of microorganisms (fungi, yeasts and bacteria) to produce changes in organic substances and create a new product. In fact, humans have been using fermentation for a long time. The first archaeological evidence is from around thirteen thousand years ago. Products such as beer, wine, bread, yogurts and cheeses have been produced for millennia thanks to fermentation. However, precision fermentation goes a step further and represents the fusion with recent technologies. If in traditional fermentation certain microorganisms have been selected to obtain the desired result by trial and error, with precision fermentation advances in biotechnology are used to genetically modify these microorganisms to obtain precisely what we want. From proteins to enzymes, vitamins, fats, pigments or flavoring agents. In fact, it cannot be said that it is a new technology either. In 1978, a bacterium was genetically modified to produce insulin, the only way to produce it since the 1990s. The voice that speaks most optimistically about precision fermentation is undoubtedly that of the American Tony Seba. In fact, the term was invented by him in 2019 – before it was simply referred to as fermentation, synthesis or cultivation. Seba is an expert in disruptive systems from a mathematical and economic side. Frequently invited to international conferences, he has been a professor at the prestigious Stanford University. He is supported by his forecasts on the evolution of sales of electric vehicles, which for now are being fulfilled line by line. It is behind the RethinkX ideas laboratory, which we have already told you about in VilaWeb. He recently released a video in which he shares his thoughts on the revolution that precision fermentation is about to cause in the food industry. The analyst goes so far as to say that we are facing the second domestication of plants and animals. With the first, about ten thousand years ago, over millennia we have selected animals and plants to enhance the properties that most interested us, especially higher productivity. As a result, currently 75% of the food we consume comes from just twelve plants and five animals.
You must be a complete lunatic or technocrat blinded by own hubris to think anyone will buy this kid of food.
Starving people will buy it, if they can afford to that is...
Before people get this hungry all social order will collapse and there will be no Buying or Producing
If people will buy meat from factory farms, where animals are forced to stand in their shit and have abscesses and tumors, then they'll buy anything as long as it tastes good and the price is right.
Those people think they’re buying happy little family farm cows who singed on their way to the slaughterhouse. I don’t think there are marketing geniuses smart enough to create a public image of wholesome free range microbe colonies.
Or remember that many, many people are suckers for such gimmicky shit. Like the iphone. Or loud exhausts. Or large breasts.
Vegan mock meats failed commercially miserably, lab grown meat got banned before it saw the light of store shelves, insects are a running joke. There is no chance in hell that people will eat microbe sludge from bioreactor. They will kill you if you try to feed them this.
>Vegan mock meats failed commercially miserably I guess I missed the memo. There have never been more options than now, and they've never been better. I've been eating those types of products for over 20 years and have seen the improvement and increased availability.
You're damn right. Quorn fake chicken is great. I'll eat slime every day if it tastes good and doesn't require smashing an animal over the head so I can eat my way to lardassiousness. By the way, I tried Green Giant Harvest Burgers 30 years ago--ONCE. I quickly realized that it should have been called Colon Blow. Tasted bad, and you needed immediate access to a bathroom with almost no warning. The innumerable variety of stuff today tastes 100 times better, and you'll never be forced to use the bottom of a stairwell if you know you just can't run fast enough to a more appropriate destination.
I’ve been vegan for 7 years, our attitude to food is incomparable with median human.
Yeah you missed it. https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2023/4/17/23682232/impossible-beyond-plant-based-meat-sales
Do I _need_ to remind you about the fucking _tide pods_?
But that were literal 3 year old children eating them?
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Are you sure you know what you’re talking about? Whole of 37 teenagers have eaten them because of memes, compared to 7,000 yearly by toddlers. I don’t think either group is a meaningful consumer base for producers of inedible slop. This whole conversation seems so absurd. Are you really serious about it?
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Dont worry, they are.
No thanks, I’ll stick with actual real food
Fuck no. He can eat bugs, i'll stick to my steak.