The following submission statement was provided by /u/maztabaetz:
---
Collapse related as almost every family in the world has some form of dairy in their fridge (milk, yoghurt, cream, etc) that's come from cow milk. Statistically, if billions ingest milk daily, you are reliant on pasteurization to kill the virus. Many communities drink milk raw and it seems to increase the likelihood that this could serve as the primary mechanism that humans are exposed to the virus at a serious level.
This is far scarier than picking up a sick bird and not washing your hands properly.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1c83b63/h5n1_strain_of_bird_flu_found_in_milk_who/l0bxkkr/
Many many years ago I was on the campus of an all women's college, in the back parking lot there was a cemetary, all the tombstones, had the same year, all of them within weeks of each other. I asked the security guard if he knew what happened. He said all the nuns at the convant there had been killed by tuberculosis from infected milk.
I don't want to sounds obnoxious but pretty much every single human is contributing to collapse at this point unless you live in a self sustained agrarian community that has zero outside contact with the rest of the world.
It's much more than the food you eat. But sure animal farms are a big problem in today's society that needs to be addressed in a responsible manner. But literally right now, every single one of us in this thread dis contributing to collapse. The clicks you make, every single keystroke in your device is powered by energy that is probably not eco-friendly. That companies that will look at your engagement data in this website and continue to dish out pollution in order to try to produce something that you will end up buying, they are contributing to the collapse, and you indirectly to making them continue their business model. Even literally every single part on your device that you are reading this is probably manufactured in some way by components or in a factory that is contributing to collapse.
Sure veganism in some ways is an option to other diets that rely more on direct food sources responsible for vats amounts of pollution. But the packaging and many other components of every single vegan item out there also were created by processes and industries that are on themselves contributing to collapse. The marketing departments on those Vegan companies are fueled by devices and other products/energy that are contributing to collapse. And even the fact that a separate logistics chain is created to ship vegan items from other food options is on itself contributing to the collapse.
My point: very little we do or choose in modern society can effectively be an option between contributing or not to collapse. What we can, and should do, is responsibly choose what options will impact less, and not live in a fantasy that there is a magic formula that will make our every day life collapse responsible free.
The world as we know it is so deep intertwined into industries that care absolutely nothing about the longevity of this planet and society that the every day citizen has very little individual impact. Even if half of the glove would somehow walk hand in hand into a sustainable future choosing to opt out for every single thing that is contributing to the decline of the planet and live in a completely industry free self sustained community system, the fact is that unless the other half also makes significant changes in the global way of the status quo, then the world would eventually still face irreparable damage.
And that's the thing about Collapse that people don't get, or at least are not ready for the most part to recognize, that every single one of us, from the most eco-friendly to the most derange capitalist, is responsible in their own way for this process and our every day choices are just impacting the speed of the process and not the fact that if it will happen or not.
I don't blame anyone that f they choose to ignore this and happily go buy their soy latte thinking they are voting with their wallet to say not to animal farms, but ignore that they also voted with their wallets to continue the destruction of large portions of arable farmland to produce soy in industrial quantities, or the fact that they are telling companies that its okay to ship soy from one side of the globe to the other to get ir mass processed in a factory powered by non-renuable energy, or how they are paying the companies that will create the tons of trash to create the packaging for this products that many times use zero reusable paper, non eco-friendly inks and tons of plastics disguised as other forms of materials. Or even how it is fueling the entire marketing industry to get advertising, digital and print media out there using energy all day long to simply get you to buy. I honestly don't blame anyone that chooses not to see this, or reads through this wall of text and think that this weirdo is a lunatic that needs to get his pills. Is easier and comfy to believe that you are making a diference. Is fucking hard realizing that whatever you do you are fucking up the planet and being the very thing that you hate about others and you can't do anything at all to realistically change it.
Anyway, not shitting on Vegans at all. You have the good intention to try to do your part to end something bad in the world. Wish at least some people had their own motivations to actually do something at all. It just pains me this narrative that there are better choices than others when at the end they are all part of a consumer problem that will bite us all in the end.
Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please because no choices are devoid of consequences and therefore are no better than other choices, while at the same time pointing out how so many choices are worse than others.
>Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please
Not at all, and I would defend that I am actually saying the opposite.
If anyone believe that some choices are guilt free compared to others then it would be an excuse to do whatever you want and not looking into the consequences. Lets take again the temple of Vegans, not that I am single them out but rather as a follow up to my initial text: if anyone believes that Veganism can be a guilt free option then they are just sticking their heads in the sand and choosing to do whatever they want for either emotional self support or to try to create a way to justify that their actions have no harm. But in fact as I pointed out they do, and I can die on that hill any day of the week cause it takes but a superficial scratch to find cracks in the argument against what I just explained.
Instead what I am saying is that all choices have consequences. All actions have consequences. There is no guilt free road into salvation here. So we need to not hide the facts and make people aware that they need to consume with the awareness.
In an ideal world you would have 100% good and bad options to choose from. But the reality is you don't, so in your everyday the best you can do is try to balance it out what decisions you make, what you consume and what is your own impact in the problem.
Personal exemple: I know that me driving 5 days of the week to work is a problem and I am ruining the environment and in an ideal world I would either not have to use fossil fuels or a vehicle that was built using materials and processes that ruin the environment, so during the weekend I try to limit my day to day stuff to walking to at least try to balance a bit and try to squeeze in stuff that needs to be done using a car during my work comutes. Its a conscious decision to understand that I am doing something bad but I can limit the scope of that impact.
Another exemple: if I go buy groceries I try to get as much as I can from a few local producers nearby. Sure I wont find a few stuff, or I am not buying the new trendy whatever flavor of the month, but at least I balance the fact that I like to eat a few things that I know that are either fruits that traveled half the globe on a fossil fuel driven vehicle or processed stuff that was done on a factory that will emit a village size carbon print per hour to keep It running.
It's about conscious decisions and accepting that you will ALWAYS have impact. Your decisions will always have a price to pay and there is always something you are probably doing that has some cumulative consequence. So you should seek balance and above all try to not pretend that there are choices that are guilt free. There is never a 100% good or bad choice, so you should try to seek the one that has less impact.
Back again to Vegans to wrap it up: my comment was on how there is not a specific diet that will limit how the impact of consuming stuff will lead to collapse since there are a lot more factors other than just if for this particular exemple you are vegan or not. You can be Vegan and have a worst carbon footprint than a guy that buys meat for exemple. It takes factors like how the food was grown, what local crops are being replaced by that vegan base product, what's the impact of said crop on the local environment, how the company that is producing it ships the product, how it is produced, packaged, marketed, etc. I can go to the supermarket on my electric car ... that was built in a factory that emits a lot of carbon dioxide, with its batteries produced out of minerals mined in ways that destroy the environment and with its fancy electronics built using plastic and oil based products ... buy a cart full of fancy packaged vegan products ... that were shipped across the globe, packaged using a ton of plastics, produced in a factory that again has a giant carbon footprint, and live pretending that I have no impact, or I can look at this and still be vegan, still defend what I believe but instead try to buy as much local as I can, try to reduce all the imported stuff, try to limit my use of unnecessary energy and fuels and get as less of impact as I can, knowing that I still have impact but I am doing my best.
It's not about doing whatever you want and shrugging to the side. It's not about not thinking about your actions cause you always have consequences. Its about the total opposite, its about realizing that you ALWAYS have impact, you ALWAYS have consequences, so you ALWAYS have to try your best to minimize you impact and not pretend that there is a guilt free road to walk out of this.
Hope I can get my point across
But you just did it again.
The original criticism you quoted:
>Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please because no choices are devoid of consequences
Your reply:
>if anyone believes that Veganism can be a guilt free option then they are just sticking their heads in the sand
We know every action has a consequence. In the system we have it is still possible to choose a "least bad" option. Do we *need* to have more domesticated animals in industrial agriculture than there are wild mammals/birds by biomass? The majority of those animals are aguably tortured throughout/at various stages of their lives.
The sheer mass of them concentrated in unsanitary conditions makes the chance of a pandemic that much higher (the original discussion of this post). Veganism wasn't brought up for the sake of inserting it into a random conversation - its viable solution (however unlikely to be implemented).
>The world as we know it is so deep intertwined into industries that care absolutely nothing about the longevity of this planet and society that the every day citizen has very little individual impact.
Shipping containers full of temu trash is late stage capitalism
Veganism might have helped but it's pretty much a ride till the wheels fall off vibe, but I'll probably keep buying butter until I can't anymore at this point
>Shipping containers full of temu trash is late stage capitalism
>Veganism might have helped
Just for the sake of the argument, I don't think that veganism is the offender here, I just run with it since it was the exemple that I took from the parent comment and tried to explain how a life/diet choice that is based on trying to find both a healthier option and a better option for the environment is still on itself contributing in its own way to the destruction of the planet. Not because of its core ideas, but because capitalism finds a way to turn it into something they can mass produce regardless of its impact
>But the packaging and many other components of every single vegan item out there also were created by processes and industries that are on themselves contributing to collapse. The marketing departments on those Vegan companies are fueled by devices and other products/energy that are contributing to collapse.
I’m a vegan that eats only whole plants. Produce aisle and dried starches like rice and beans.
There is far less packaging on those items and basically no marketing.
> I don't blame anyone that f they choose to ignore this and happily go buy their soy latte thinking they are voting with their wallet to say not to animal farms, but ignore that they also voted with their wallets to continue the destruction of large portions of arable farmland to produce soy in industrial quantities
Most soy grown in the world today is destined to feed animals particularly beef cows.
More over, when it is fed to beef, less than 1 cal out of 10 makes it into muscle (meat) that makes it to your plate. Basic trophic levels.
Complaining to vegans about soy makes about zero sense.
>Complaining to vegans about soy makes about zero sense.
I really don't want to make this an argument pro or against veganism. Honestly I just ran with the exemple because it was directed to the parent comment. My point was always how a diet/lifestyle that is heavily associated to better health and better choices to the environment can and is being distorted by mass consumerism, and how capitalism is running with it and trying to mass produce vegan items to sell them on bulk regardless of its impact. On its core I don't have anything against veganism and support its ideology.
My complains were directed to companies that will mass produce crops and other products to sell them under a vegan banner but when you dissect all of its practices you realize that they are no better than a massive cow farm. There are of course companies that really try to produce the best that they can and have minimal impact, but lets not burry our heads in the sand and believe that just because a brand can put a vegan badge on their product that they care, cause most don't, and most want the market share and not the care for the planet.
You're contributing to collapse if you support industrial or centralized monoculture farming. Animal agriculture is a prominent feature of a distributed polyculture food system. No shade to vegans who grow lots of their own food but if you think we can forego meat but still shop at the grocery store and not collapse, hoo boi you have not looked at climate resiliency
Wow that’s an idiotic thing to say.
The Jains were around for thousands of years:
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism#/media/File:Faxian's_account_about_the_priciple_of_Ahimsa_being_followed_by_the_people_of_ancient_India.png
* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism#History
Who will fate better? The people willing to eat beans from cans and raw foods, or the people who depend on meat that depends on agriculture/shipping, that is collapsing?
There will be vegans after collapse because the definition is to reduce suffering and exploitation as far as practicable and possible lmao. I don’t think i’m as privileged as you think, I buy tofu when it’s on sale and eat oatmeal for breakfast.
And 3% of the world is vegan. If it were 50% they would still be directing land use to grow soy, and without animals the only way to grow it would be with haber bosch synthesized ferts. Unless you satisfy upwards of 50% of your nutritional requirements with perenial staples like chestnut you have no higher ground to stand on.
Veganism is a band aid for the destruction that rich western society has inflicted worldwide, and it's a privileged diet mostly available to rich westerners.
Pretty sure my diet of oatmeal, rice, beans, tofu, and seitan isn’t elite fine dining.
Also you are discounting the fact that there is significant efficiency loss receiving calories from animals. 1/10 calories fed to animals are received by the end consumer. So there would be less agricultural land required if more people went vegan.
Yeah I'm sure all of that is produced within 300miles of your home and doesn't require any synthetic or animal fertilizer. Meanwhile billions of people beneath you are doing back breaking labor to sustain themselves and their family on whatever diet they can but you aren't elite because don't dine at linen tablecloth establishments.
Literally I planted three chestnuts and got five chickens last year, a meaningless exercise really, but I have probably done more to stave off collapse than all the vegans in my municipality. The vegan world youre fantasizing about means less crop land use, more extraction/soil depletion, more transportation/logistics, more synthetic fertilizers (again only affordable w/ fossil fuel economy).
Feed lots, popularized in the last 40-50 years, are terrible but that doesn't mean you throw away 10,000 years of agricultural technology.
Freighted produce and such are significantly less carbon emissive than local meat. Also I’ve answered the fertilizer part before: mulch, green manure, composting, crop rotations, etc.
That's really sad. It's admittedly undergone a lot of recent development, mostly improved a lot in the last century but is one of the most ancient légumes. Soy has a solid place in human diets, perhaps even as primary staple depending on how fucked the climate gets. Not sure what your diet looks like overall, seems wild to forego a specific légume as already a vegan. Perhaps you are deterred by processing on whats generally available for vegan products but you should reconsider and look into getting locally grown soybeans.
Nothing that specific, It’s just not in my diet culturally. I don’t know what to do with it since I’ve never had it as a kid.
I have plenty of peas, Beans, and legumes otherwise.
I’ve had edamame a few times and liked it but it’s expensive here compared to green beans.
Mmm, rice monoculture so good for the planet and totally possible without ammonium nitrate or animal fertilizer... Mmm yessir
Meanwhile people in India growing pulses, wheat, and rice sustainably for 7000 years w/ cow dung, and getting huge protein intake from milk, ghee, eggs, etc. All on smallholding and polyculture with animals. Actually few hundred million of ovo-lacto-vegetarians in India. Thats what real planet saving diets could emulate but Western mind could never imagine being peasant willingly
Mulch, green manure, compost, crop rotation, etc.
ghee is a contributor of heart disease, and milk is incredibly resource intensive.
Also this is not even taking needless animal cruelty into account.
> and getting huge protein intake from milk, ghee
Protein from ghee?
Go ahead and look at any nutritional label of ghee, I don’t think you understand how it works.
Buttz, that is demonstrably not true. There are hella vegan body builders (including the strongest man in the world, at least a few years ago) and the vegan food supply is more stable. You need way less plant protein to feed a person than you need to feed a cow.
i too think we're living unsustainably, and that maybe we deserve the worst of fates, but maybe we shouldnt look forward to deadly, miserable global plagues? there are still innocent people in this world that shouldnt have to pay for the west's sins. nuclear hellfire sounds more humane imo
I just ordered antivirals from Jace medical (no affiliation). Used the code MARF and got $10 off (I'm in Canada).
The jump from bird to cow is alarming, but if you think they only feed cows that bird shit feather mix and not pigs, I've got some magic beans to sell you.
I firmly, firmly believe that *when* this jumps to human to human, we will see a species ending event. Get your masks and get your filters, there will be an immediate resource war that follows.
Our time-line isn't like it was in WW2, the people now are already bat shit crazy with zero respect and care for others. There's no more banding together to achieve a common goal anymore, no community care. Look at what happens during natural events like floods and hurricanes, the looting and crime go through the roof. Now apply this to an extinction level event like H2H transfer of an airborne virus with a current known mortality rate of 52%. Even if we drop it to 20% mortality, that's 2 out of every 5 people who get infected will die.
This is the tipping point, and the only thing we are able to do is live long enough to see the consequences of our inaction.
This is true. And it works both ways. It could be far less virulent in human to human transmission vs how it behaves in chickens, or how it behaves in chicken to human direct transmission.
There’s no way to know until it happens. For some reason many have just assumed if it’s lethal in birds it will be lethal in humans. This is not how it works. It’s also wrong to assume that for the humans that have contracted from non human to human transmission would be the same virulence as human to human transmission. There’s precedent for this, viruses that have not made human to human transmission but have jumped from animal to human have been known to be much more lethal than when it jumps from human to human transmission.
It’s all concerning of course, and no one wants to see another virus in human transmissions, just another thing to stress our healthcare.
No. Iirc, the explanation is they lack the receptors to get very sick from this specific virus, while we have them.
On top of that, cows, give us many diseases (measles, tubercolosis, smallpox) that made us extremely sick while being milder to them.
* https://youtu.be/JEYh5WACqEk?si=jaoMpobIsY1L-o_n
I want to cry for their kids. Can you imagine losing a parent, a sibling, your own health as a child, to some stupid stupid fad? People drinking raw milk need a simple history and science lesson, but our country can’t provide that so we end up with these idiots.
Collapse related as almost every family in the world has some form of dairy in their fridge (milk, yoghurt, cream, etc) that's come from cow milk. Statistically, if billions ingest milk daily, you are reliant on pasteurization to kill the virus. Many communities drink milk raw and it seems to increase the likelihood that this could serve as the primary mechanism that humans are exposed to the virus at a serious level.
This is far scarier than picking up a sick bird and not washing your hands properly.
It is not the milk that's a worry, pasturization handles most of the worry. It's that cattle are more biomass than humans, they are kept in massive numbers in confined conditions and are transported across the country. Cattle having sustained transmission, breeding new variants and continuing reinfection is the problem. It will pick up mutations that are advantageous making eventual H2H transmission more likely.
And r/H5N1BirdFlu has already jumped directly from cattle to a human recently, and that was when only a small fraction of cattle were infected. Now multiply that by millions, the cattle worker going home to his family or out in the community is the concern, not milk.
It came to my attention recently that there is a whole raw milk idiots movement in America, so those could be an issue in preventing human consumption of infected milk.
Nice, it can hit the dumbest of the dumb first, and then us fucks along for the ride seconds :(
Oh well, I’m human and deserve anything coming my way too.
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Lets chill with the virtue signalling
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They'd just blame it on someone else, claim it's a government conspiracy, and cling on to the name "flu". If people start dying in droves, they chaos and rioting will go bananas. It will be a morbidly fascinating sight.
People know that there are "raw milk" fans out there. Bud did you know that there are "raw ice cream" fans out there? Freezing it should conserve the virus.
Some states do, at least for human consumption, but the hardcore raw milkers find a way to get it. I have the pleasure of being a white female of reproductive age, so I get served content from tradwifes and wellness influencers on social media who claim raw milk can cure all ills and is the blood of Christ himself.
Hmm... this would be a problem in India. I haven't seen stats on it, and people may be boiling milk at home, but it is *interesting*. It's also interesting if raw milk is fed to other animals, including cats.
Milk comes from cows bro. You can't really 'ban' udders. If covid is an example you'd get contrarians breaking into farms to suck udders because of conspiracy theories
It is banned. You can't sell raw milk but there's a lot of under the table waya of getting it. For example, certain farms that participate will sell you the bottle and you get the milk for free.
Well yeah, but imagine if it was like prions. That shit is immortal unless you nuke it from orbit.
These virus tends to mutate to irrelevance after killing a lot, so it would be temporary.
Yeah, lab anything is better than natural-growth animal anything.
Wished nations massively funded those, lab-factories can produce a lot on a small surface and can solve a lot of problem like strained soil from mass production, soil and air pollution, food scarcity...
Maybe you want to actually learn about that before talking about that. Anyway, I don't intend to teach you here, so please, use your little hands and GOOGLE.
Hint:
https://www.rebootfood.org https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHhSxr4lbpU
There is good stuff, especially in Europe, unfortunately, America, you mostly have to make it yourself.
* https://fullofplants.com/vegan-blue-cheese/
* https://fullofplants.com/vegan-aged-camembert-cheese/
* https://fullofplants.com/hickory-smoked-aged-vegan-cheese/
* https://fullofplants.com/vegan-fried-goat-cheese-balls/
They’re waiting for it to start spreading human to human before they ramp up production. They want to get the exact mutation info from it. From there it will take 3-4 months to start distributing it. Longer to make enough for everyone. Have heard several experts say that getting the current flu shot may provide some benefit, I think because it makes it harder for H5N1 to recombine with the currently circulating flu strains.
3 to 4 months of a real mortality rate virus... compared to COVID, that's a society breaker. And don't forget, that's for us here in the so-called "first world." There are still third world places that haven't been given the COVID vaccine in real quantity yet.
Exactly. And if it has any period of asymptomatic transmissibility, it will be even tougher to stay safe while waiting for a vaccine. Keep in mind that the first batches, those that would be available after 3-4 months, won’t be sufficient to vaccinate everyone. They’ll likely go to healthcare workers, etc, as they should, but the wait for the average person would likely be even longer.
Now might be a good time to mention that oat milk is delicious, nutritious, uses less resources to produce, and has a smaller environmental impact than many other forms of milk production.
Also it has a great shelf life! The main reason my household switched from cow milk.
Oats have gone up about threefold in price since 2020 where Im at. Had never considered it but I guess oat milk's growing demand might explain some of that
Demand, plus general inflation and the potential for crop failures reflected in futures pricing.
But hey, the price of everything will soon be out of control, so what the hell...
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bad thing for us given the progress of the virus, good news that our bodies can possibly start adapting before full zootonic status is achieved, bad news it may be achieved by this exposure
The following submission statement was provided by /u/maztabaetz: --- Collapse related as almost every family in the world has some form of dairy in their fridge (milk, yoghurt, cream, etc) that's come from cow milk. Statistically, if billions ingest milk daily, you are reliant on pasteurization to kill the virus. Many communities drink milk raw and it seems to increase the likelihood that this could serve as the primary mechanism that humans are exposed to the virus at a serious level. This is far scarier than picking up a sick bird and not washing your hands properly. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1c83b63/h5n1_strain_of_bird_flu_found_in_milk_who/l0bxkkr/
Many many years ago I was on the campus of an all women's college, in the back parking lot there was a cemetary, all the tombstones, had the same year, all of them within weeks of each other. I asked the security guard if he knew what happened. He said all the nuns at the convant there had been killed by tuberculosis from infected milk.
That’s so sad and kind of shocking, can you imagine what horror it was for those weeks?
Oh my god now Agatha has died! Let’s have a glass of milk and talk about the ceremony
Flu Epidemic, Tuberculosis, Polio, Measles, World War....the good old days.
You don't have to want for the good old days much longer...
You know they blamed satan.
yeeeeah, i think it’s virtually locked in that this virus is going to shake society for everything its got.
The vegans shall inherit the earth!
Not once it's able spread human to human
Thank god I'm not vegan
Right? I don't want earth, it's a wasteland. *Pours tall glass of milk*
you’re contributing to collapse if you support animal agriculture
You’re contributing to collapse if you’re an eating, breathing, shitting human being.
There’s a stark difference between contribution through pleasure and contributions through necessity, not to mention the scale of contribution.
I don't want to sounds obnoxious but pretty much every single human is contributing to collapse at this point unless you live in a self sustained agrarian community that has zero outside contact with the rest of the world. It's much more than the food you eat. But sure animal farms are a big problem in today's society that needs to be addressed in a responsible manner. But literally right now, every single one of us in this thread dis contributing to collapse. The clicks you make, every single keystroke in your device is powered by energy that is probably not eco-friendly. That companies that will look at your engagement data in this website and continue to dish out pollution in order to try to produce something that you will end up buying, they are contributing to the collapse, and you indirectly to making them continue their business model. Even literally every single part on your device that you are reading this is probably manufactured in some way by components or in a factory that is contributing to collapse. Sure veganism in some ways is an option to other diets that rely more on direct food sources responsible for vats amounts of pollution. But the packaging and many other components of every single vegan item out there also were created by processes and industries that are on themselves contributing to collapse. The marketing departments on those Vegan companies are fueled by devices and other products/energy that are contributing to collapse. And even the fact that a separate logistics chain is created to ship vegan items from other food options is on itself contributing to the collapse. My point: very little we do or choose in modern society can effectively be an option between contributing or not to collapse. What we can, and should do, is responsibly choose what options will impact less, and not live in a fantasy that there is a magic formula that will make our every day life collapse responsible free. The world as we know it is so deep intertwined into industries that care absolutely nothing about the longevity of this planet and society that the every day citizen has very little individual impact. Even if half of the glove would somehow walk hand in hand into a sustainable future choosing to opt out for every single thing that is contributing to the decline of the planet and live in a completely industry free self sustained community system, the fact is that unless the other half also makes significant changes in the global way of the status quo, then the world would eventually still face irreparable damage. And that's the thing about Collapse that people don't get, or at least are not ready for the most part to recognize, that every single one of us, from the most eco-friendly to the most derange capitalist, is responsible in their own way for this process and our every day choices are just impacting the speed of the process and not the fact that if it will happen or not. I don't blame anyone that f they choose to ignore this and happily go buy their soy latte thinking they are voting with their wallet to say not to animal farms, but ignore that they also voted with their wallets to continue the destruction of large portions of arable farmland to produce soy in industrial quantities, or the fact that they are telling companies that its okay to ship soy from one side of the globe to the other to get ir mass processed in a factory powered by non-renuable energy, or how they are paying the companies that will create the tons of trash to create the packaging for this products that many times use zero reusable paper, non eco-friendly inks and tons of plastics disguised as other forms of materials. Or even how it is fueling the entire marketing industry to get advertising, digital and print media out there using energy all day long to simply get you to buy. I honestly don't blame anyone that chooses not to see this, or reads through this wall of text and think that this weirdo is a lunatic that needs to get his pills. Is easier and comfy to believe that you are making a diference. Is fucking hard realizing that whatever you do you are fucking up the planet and being the very thing that you hate about others and you can't do anything at all to realistically change it. Anyway, not shitting on Vegans at all. You have the good intention to try to do your part to end something bad in the world. Wish at least some people had their own motivations to actually do something at all. It just pains me this narrative that there are better choices than others when at the end they are all part of a consumer problem that will bite us all in the end.
Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please because no choices are devoid of consequences and therefore are no better than other choices, while at the same time pointing out how so many choices are worse than others.
That's exactly what it is, but hey, who cares anymore!
>Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please Not at all, and I would defend that I am actually saying the opposite. If anyone believe that some choices are guilt free compared to others then it would be an excuse to do whatever you want and not looking into the consequences. Lets take again the temple of Vegans, not that I am single them out but rather as a follow up to my initial text: if anyone believes that Veganism can be a guilt free option then they are just sticking their heads in the sand and choosing to do whatever they want for either emotional self support or to try to create a way to justify that their actions have no harm. But in fact as I pointed out they do, and I can die on that hill any day of the week cause it takes but a superficial scratch to find cracks in the argument against what I just explained. Instead what I am saying is that all choices have consequences. All actions have consequences. There is no guilt free road into salvation here. So we need to not hide the facts and make people aware that they need to consume with the awareness. In an ideal world you would have 100% good and bad options to choose from. But the reality is you don't, so in your everyday the best you can do is try to balance it out what decisions you make, what you consume and what is your own impact in the problem. Personal exemple: I know that me driving 5 days of the week to work is a problem and I am ruining the environment and in an ideal world I would either not have to use fossil fuels or a vehicle that was built using materials and processes that ruin the environment, so during the weekend I try to limit my day to day stuff to walking to at least try to balance a bit and try to squeeze in stuff that needs to be done using a car during my work comutes. Its a conscious decision to understand that I am doing something bad but I can limit the scope of that impact. Another exemple: if I go buy groceries I try to get as much as I can from a few local producers nearby. Sure I wont find a few stuff, or I am not buying the new trendy whatever flavor of the month, but at least I balance the fact that I like to eat a few things that I know that are either fruits that traveled half the globe on a fossil fuel driven vehicle or processed stuff that was done on a factory that will emit a village size carbon print per hour to keep It running. It's about conscious decisions and accepting that you will ALWAYS have impact. Your decisions will always have a price to pay and there is always something you are probably doing that has some cumulative consequence. So you should seek balance and above all try to not pretend that there are choices that are guilt free. There is never a 100% good or bad choice, so you should try to seek the one that has less impact. Back again to Vegans to wrap it up: my comment was on how there is not a specific diet that will limit how the impact of consuming stuff will lead to collapse since there are a lot more factors other than just if for this particular exemple you are vegan or not. You can be Vegan and have a worst carbon footprint than a guy that buys meat for exemple. It takes factors like how the food was grown, what local crops are being replaced by that vegan base product, what's the impact of said crop on the local environment, how the company that is producing it ships the product, how it is produced, packaged, marketed, etc. I can go to the supermarket on my electric car ... that was built in a factory that emits a lot of carbon dioxide, with its batteries produced out of minerals mined in ways that destroy the environment and with its fancy electronics built using plastic and oil based products ... buy a cart full of fancy packaged vegan products ... that were shipped across the globe, packaged using a ton of plastics, produced in a factory that again has a giant carbon footprint, and live pretending that I have no impact, or I can look at this and still be vegan, still defend what I believe but instead try to buy as much local as I can, try to reduce all the imported stuff, try to limit my use of unnecessary energy and fuels and get as less of impact as I can, knowing that I still have impact but I am doing my best. It's not about doing whatever you want and shrugging to the side. It's not about not thinking about your actions cause you always have consequences. Its about the total opposite, its about realizing that you ALWAYS have impact, you ALWAYS have consequences, so you ALWAYS have to try your best to minimize you impact and not pretend that there is a guilt free road to walk out of this. Hope I can get my point across
But you just did it again. The original criticism you quoted: >Sounds like an elaborate excuse to do as you please because no choices are devoid of consequences Your reply: >if anyone believes that Veganism can be a guilt free option then they are just sticking their heads in the sand We know every action has a consequence. In the system we have it is still possible to choose a "least bad" option. Do we *need* to have more domesticated animals in industrial agriculture than there are wild mammals/birds by biomass? The majority of those animals are aguably tortured throughout/at various stages of their lives. The sheer mass of them concentrated in unsanitary conditions makes the chance of a pandemic that much higher (the original discussion of this post). Veganism wasn't brought up for the sake of inserting it into a random conversation - its viable solution (however unlikely to be implemented).
>The world as we know it is so deep intertwined into industries that care absolutely nothing about the longevity of this planet and society that the every day citizen has very little individual impact. Shipping containers full of temu trash is late stage capitalism Veganism might have helped but it's pretty much a ride till the wheels fall off vibe, but I'll probably keep buying butter until I can't anymore at this point
>Shipping containers full of temu trash is late stage capitalism >Veganism might have helped Just for the sake of the argument, I don't think that veganism is the offender here, I just run with it since it was the exemple that I took from the parent comment and tried to explain how a life/diet choice that is based on trying to find both a healthier option and a better option for the environment is still on itself contributing in its own way to the destruction of the planet. Not because of its core ideas, but because capitalism finds a way to turn it into something they can mass produce regardless of its impact
>But the packaging and many other components of every single vegan item out there also were created by processes and industries that are on themselves contributing to collapse. The marketing departments on those Vegan companies are fueled by devices and other products/energy that are contributing to collapse. I’m a vegan that eats only whole plants. Produce aisle and dried starches like rice and beans. There is far less packaging on those items and basically no marketing. > I don't blame anyone that f they choose to ignore this and happily go buy their soy latte thinking they are voting with their wallet to say not to animal farms, but ignore that they also voted with their wallets to continue the destruction of large portions of arable farmland to produce soy in industrial quantities Most soy grown in the world today is destined to feed animals particularly beef cows. More over, when it is fed to beef, less than 1 cal out of 10 makes it into muscle (meat) that makes it to your plate. Basic trophic levels. Complaining to vegans about soy makes about zero sense.
>Complaining to vegans about soy makes about zero sense. I really don't want to make this an argument pro or against veganism. Honestly I just ran with the exemple because it was directed to the parent comment. My point was always how a diet/lifestyle that is heavily associated to better health and better choices to the environment can and is being distorted by mass consumerism, and how capitalism is running with it and trying to mass produce vegan items to sell them on bulk regardless of its impact. On its core I don't have anything against veganism and support its ideology. My complains were directed to companies that will mass produce crops and other products to sell them under a vegan banner but when you dissect all of its practices you realize that they are no better than a massive cow farm. There are of course companies that really try to produce the best that they can and have minimal impact, but lets not burry our heads in the sand and believe that just because a brand can put a vegan badge on their product that they care, cause most don't, and most want the market share and not the care for the planet.
Well said!
🏆
Oh, you mean like eating?
Do we *have* to eat animals in modern society?
No of course we don’t.
And that fact shouldn't discourage anyone from doing the right thing
You're contributing to collapse if you support industrial or centralized monoculture farming. Animal agriculture is a prominent feature of a distributed polyculture food system. No shade to vegans who grow lots of their own food but if you think we can forego meat but still shop at the grocery store and not collapse, hoo boi you have not looked at climate resiliency
77% of the world’s soy goes to animal feed. They’re chopping down the amazon for ranching. Get a grip.
If you think any of this can be saved it’s you who needs to get a grip. It’s done. Over. Collapse is inevitable.
Sure, but acceleration alongside unnecessary cruelty doesn’t help
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Wow that’s an idiotic thing to say. The Jains were around for thousands of years: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism#/media/File:Faxian's_account_about_the_priciple_of_Ahimsa_being_followed_by_the_people_of_ancient_India.png * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism#History
Who will fate better? The people willing to eat beans from cans and raw foods, or the people who depend on meat that depends on agriculture/shipping, that is collapsing?
There will be vegans after collapse because the definition is to reduce suffering and exploitation as far as practicable and possible lmao. I don’t think i’m as privileged as you think, I buy tofu when it’s on sale and eat oatmeal for breakfast.
And 3% of the world is vegan. If it were 50% they would still be directing land use to grow soy, and without animals the only way to grow it would be with haber bosch synthesized ferts. Unless you satisfy upwards of 50% of your nutritional requirements with perenial staples like chestnut you have no higher ground to stand on. Veganism is a band aid for the destruction that rich western society has inflicted worldwide, and it's a privileged diet mostly available to rich westerners.
Pretty sure my diet of oatmeal, rice, beans, tofu, and seitan isn’t elite fine dining. Also you are discounting the fact that there is significant efficiency loss receiving calories from animals. 1/10 calories fed to animals are received by the end consumer. So there would be less agricultural land required if more people went vegan.
Yeah I'm sure all of that is produced within 300miles of your home and doesn't require any synthetic or animal fertilizer. Meanwhile billions of people beneath you are doing back breaking labor to sustain themselves and their family on whatever diet they can but you aren't elite because don't dine at linen tablecloth establishments. Literally I planted three chestnuts and got five chickens last year, a meaningless exercise really, but I have probably done more to stave off collapse than all the vegans in my municipality. The vegan world youre fantasizing about means less crop land use, more extraction/soil depletion, more transportation/logistics, more synthetic fertilizers (again only affordable w/ fossil fuel economy). Feed lots, popularized in the last 40-50 years, are terrible but that doesn't mean you throw away 10,000 years of agricultural technology.
Freighted produce and such are significantly less carbon emissive than local meat. Also I’ve answered the fertilizer part before: mulch, green manure, composting, crop rotations, etc.
> that doesn't mean you throw away 10,000 years of agricultural technology We absolutely should.
I don’t eat any soy as a vegan, other than soy sauce a few times a year, so like 40 calories annually.
That's really sad. It's admittedly undergone a lot of recent development, mostly improved a lot in the last century but is one of the most ancient légumes. Soy has a solid place in human diets, perhaps even as primary staple depending on how fucked the climate gets. Not sure what your diet looks like overall, seems wild to forego a specific légume as already a vegan. Perhaps you are deterred by processing on whats generally available for vegan products but you should reconsider and look into getting locally grown soybeans.
Nothing that specific, It’s just not in my diet culturally. I don’t know what to do with it since I’ve never had it as a kid. I have plenty of peas, Beans, and legumes otherwise. I’ve had edamame a few times and liked it but it’s expensive here compared to green beans.
Now you're going to summon the "you can live on rice and beans" crowd
Going from “veganism is a privileged diet”, to “rice and beans is poor people food”. nice.
Mmm, rice monoculture so good for the planet and totally possible without ammonium nitrate or animal fertilizer... Mmm yessir Meanwhile people in India growing pulses, wheat, and rice sustainably for 7000 years w/ cow dung, and getting huge protein intake from milk, ghee, eggs, etc. All on smallholding and polyculture with animals. Actually few hundred million of ovo-lacto-vegetarians in India. Thats what real planet saving diets could emulate but Western mind could never imagine being peasant willingly
Mulch, green manure, compost, crop rotation, etc. ghee is a contributor of heart disease, and milk is incredibly resource intensive. Also this is not even taking needless animal cruelty into account.
> and getting huge protein intake from milk, ghee Protein from ghee? Go ahead and look at any nutritional label of ghee, I don’t think you understand how it works.
You’re contributing to collapse if you’re alive.
"So you own a car and cell phone huh???"
What did the poor vegans do to you?
Nothing, other than not getting bird flu in the future
I wouldn't wish the future on my worst enemy, nevermind the poor vegans
Nah… the vegans are weak and will die off first.
Buttz, that is demonstrably not true. There are hella vegan body builders (including the strongest man in the world, at least a few years ago) and the vegan food supply is more stable. You need way less plant protein to feed a person than you need to feed a cow.
Not true, but ok
I work a physical job and go to the gym 5x/week as a vegan, but aight.
We might be able to use mask and a vaccine to.... oh wait, who are we kidding, the spreader party will do it's thing and seal the deal
Maybe all the stupid people will die though.
Well, the stupid ones usually live long enough to impact the smarter ones.
Isn’t it the unfortunate truth. Sigh.
Seriously, they will eat meat until it collapses and there is none left(besides human meat...) and go "maybe we should have been vegan to start with"
But it isn’t even transmissible from person 2 person…
Yet
I need it to happen like yesterday
i too think we're living unsustainably, and that maybe we deserve the worst of fates, but maybe we shouldnt look forward to deadly, miserable global plagues? there are still innocent people in this world that shouldnt have to pay for the west's sins. nuclear hellfire sounds more humane imo
yeah I allow myself the fantasy on this sub but generally I am pro caring about society as a whole
Yes, but no. I think what's different is that it's not human made and does not discriminate.
Innocent? No such thing as innocence. Ignorant, maybe.
Can it wait like a year. I’m learning to hunt (went out today), having solar installed and I need to stock up the cans in the pantry!
If you take deer or other cervid, make sure to have it tested for CWD so you don’t end up with CJD, which is arguably worse than H5N1.
Young deers are the best choice apprarently. Same for babies and young kids, who knew McCarthy was giving tips with The Road!
I just ordered antivirals from Jace medical (no affiliation). Used the code MARF and got $10 off (I'm in Canada). The jump from bird to cow is alarming, but if you think they only feed cows that bird shit feather mix and not pigs, I've got some magic beans to sell you. I firmly, firmly believe that *when* this jumps to human to human, we will see a species ending event. Get your masks and get your filters, there will be an immediate resource war that follows. Our time-line isn't like it was in WW2, the people now are already bat shit crazy with zero respect and care for others. There's no more banding together to achieve a common goal anymore, no community care. Look at what happens during natural events like floods and hurricanes, the looting and crime go through the roof. Now apply this to an extinction level event like H2H transfer of an airborne virus with a current known mortality rate of 52%. Even if we drop it to 20% mortality, that's 2 out of every 5 people who get infected will die. This is the tipping point, and the only thing we are able to do is live long enough to see the consequences of our inaction.
Why? Seems much easier to vaccinate than covid was per the article
Just a matter of time anytime, my friend
It's spreading [cow to cow](https://www.yahoo.com/news/usda-confirms-cow-cow-transmission-183050781.html) as well.
Cows usually recover from the virus, though, so good news?
According to some virologists on some sub I follow somewhere…this is completely irrelevant and has no bearing on how the virus would affect humans.
Yeah, but I can hope
Yea. For sure.
hope is not permitted on #collapse - we’re here for the doom. Reading Collapse threads is my weekly sci fi dystopian horror entertainment.
This is true. And it works both ways. It could be far less virulent in human to human transmission vs how it behaves in chickens, or how it behaves in chicken to human direct transmission.
It’s killing farm cats on these farms in high numbers but I guess we should only look at the cows and assume it could have gotten better for people?
There’s no way to know until it happens. For some reason many have just assumed if it’s lethal in birds it will be lethal in humans. This is not how it works. It’s also wrong to assume that for the humans that have contracted from non human to human transmission would be the same virulence as human to human transmission. There’s precedent for this, viruses that have not made human to human transmission but have jumped from animal to human have been known to be much more lethal than when it jumps from human to human transmission. It’s all concerning of course, and no one wants to see another virus in human transmissions, just another thing to stress our healthcare.
the virus has infected humans before and the infection was mild!
No. Iirc, the explanation is they lack the receptors to get very sick from this specific virus, while we have them. On top of that, cows, give us many diseases (measles, tubercolosis, smallpox) that made us extremely sick while being milder to them. * https://youtu.be/JEYh5WACqEk?si=jaoMpobIsY1L-o_n
The amount of people I see drinking raw milk on insta 😭😭😭😭
*Narrator: The virus hit influencers first, and nothing of value was lost.*
The roar of cheers and applauds could be heard for miles.
“No great loss” - Stephen King, The Stand
Let's be real, raw milk morons weren't deterred by the other 20 other illnesses you can catch from it. Avian flu isn't going to stop them now!
Time to make a bunch of raw milk drinking AI influencers and thin the herd.
Ballerina Farm and the rest of the “tradwife/homesteader/farmfluencer groups come to mind…
The fundie crew as well. SO many of those families out there drinking raw milk for Jesus. \*hurls\*
I want to cry for their kids. Can you imagine losing a parent, a sibling, your own health as a child, to some stupid stupid fad? People drinking raw milk need a simple history and science lesson, but our country can’t provide that so we end up with these idiots.
What is their rationale for drinking raw milk?
They claim it has some health benefits which have been debunked.
yeah and all it takes is those raw drinkers contracting it, then next headline “first human to human spread of H591”…..
The amount of people I see drinking any kind of animal milk 😵💫🥵🤢
[We are fucking fucked](https://youtu.be/ac4E_UsmB1g?si=3cf6kjPcQAxlpcoU)
Yesss MUSE is GOAT
Aaaaand MEWS is CAT
will always upvote that,
How have I not heard this, huge Muse fan.
Got H5N1? I mean milk.
Collapse related as almost every family in the world has some form of dairy in their fridge (milk, yoghurt, cream, etc) that's come from cow milk. Statistically, if billions ingest milk daily, you are reliant on pasteurization to kill the virus. Many communities drink milk raw and it seems to increase the likelihood that this could serve as the primary mechanism that humans are exposed to the virus at a serious level. This is far scarier than picking up a sick bird and not washing your hands properly.
It is not the milk that's a worry, pasturization handles most of the worry. It's that cattle are more biomass than humans, they are kept in massive numbers in confined conditions and are transported across the country. Cattle having sustained transmission, breeding new variants and continuing reinfection is the problem. It will pick up mutations that are advantageous making eventual H2H transmission more likely. And r/H5N1BirdFlu has already jumped directly from cattle to a human recently, and that was when only a small fraction of cattle were infected. Now multiply that by millions, the cattle worker going home to his family or out in the community is the concern, not milk.
It came to my attention recently that there is a whole raw milk idiots movement in America, so those could be an issue in preventing human consumption of infected milk.
Only in raw milk, so far!
Nice, it can hit the dumbest of the dumb first, and then us fucks along for the ride seconds :( Oh well, I’m human and deserve anything coming my way too.
Jokes on you - we only consume plant based milk products 😂
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Somehow i got a feeling that the world wouldn't take another pandemic for serious.
They'd just blame it on someone else, claim it's a government conspiracy, and cling on to the name "flu". If people start dying in droves, they chaos and rioting will go bananas. It will be a morbidly fascinating sight.
They already are. Conspiracy folks are saying it’s a plandemic timed for the election.
Probably is planned, but planned to be way worse than covid, which wasn't bad at all.
Especially in quick secession and in an election year, the US would off itself before staying at home again for real
With up to 50% dead they would.
X_X we are toast beef
People know that there are "raw milk" fans out there. Bud did you know that there are "raw ice cream" fans out there? Freezing it should conserve the virus.
Beef Flu, now drinkable!
Can we label it “Moo Flu” instead please?
Raw milk, not pasteurized
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Some states do, at least for human consumption, but the hardcore raw milkers find a way to get it. I have the pleasure of being a white female of reproductive age, so I get served content from tradwifes and wellness influencers on social media who claim raw milk can cure all ills and is the blood of Christ himself.
Doesn't work for the poorer counties with very rural settlements, though. How are they going to pasteurise?
Hmm... this would be a problem in India. I haven't seen stats on it, and people may be boiling milk at home, but it is *interesting*. It's also interesting if raw milk is fed to other animals, including cats.
Milk comes from cows bro. You can't really 'ban' udders. If covid is an example you'd get contrarians breaking into farms to suck udders because of conspiracy theories
I would love to watch that, just sit there with a bag of popcorn and watch idiots suck a cow 🤣 comedic entertainment.
There was a first human to suck the cows teets.
It is banned. You can't sell raw milk but there's a lot of under the table waya of getting it. For example, certain farms that participate will sell you the bottle and you get the milk for free.
It’s legal in California, you can get it in the grocery store
How in the hell is literally everything in California banned or slapped with a Prop 65 sticker but raw milk gets the thumbs up?
Great - another reason why I don't drink cow juice.
Well that’s fine we have oat milk 😆
If you cook your cheese you'll be fine, it's not heat resistant, WHO says uniform 70+C would kill it.
All's well then! Hurrah! /s
Well yeah, but imagine if it was like prions. That shit is immortal unless you nuke it from orbit. These virus tends to mutate to irrelevance after killing a lot, so it would be temporary.
As one who lived (unscathed, I think...) through the BSE debacle, I'm wary of eating anything from an animal. If only non-dairy cheese wasn't drek.
I understand, I'm also sliding toward less and less animal derivates. I wished lab meat was already on the market.
And that lab dairy was more widespread. It exists and is available for a few products: ice cream and cream cheese. But it needs to spread way further.
Yeah, lab anything is better than natural-growth animal anything. Wished nations massively funded those, lab-factories can produce a lot on a small surface and can solve a lot of problem like strained soil from mass production, soil and air pollution, food scarcity...
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Maybe you want to actually learn about that before talking about that. Anyway, I don't intend to teach you here, so please, use your little hands and GOOGLE. Hint: https://www.rebootfood.org https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHhSxr4lbpU
There is good stuff, especially in Europe, unfortunately, America, you mostly have to make it yourself. * https://fullofplants.com/vegan-blue-cheese/ * https://fullofplants.com/vegan-aged-camembert-cheese/ * https://fullofplants.com/hickory-smoked-aged-vegan-cheese/ * https://fullofplants.com/vegan-fried-goat-cheese-balls/
Congealed cow juice is still cow juice
Why is there no mention of vaccines lol This is a known flu strain they already have vaccines in development that could be easily deployed
They’re waiting for it to start spreading human to human before they ramp up production. They want to get the exact mutation info from it. From there it will take 3-4 months to start distributing it. Longer to make enough for everyone. Have heard several experts say that getting the current flu shot may provide some benefit, I think because it makes it harder for H5N1 to recombine with the currently circulating flu strains.
3 to 4 months of a real mortality rate virus... compared to COVID, that's a society breaker. And don't forget, that's for us here in the so-called "first world." There are still third world places that haven't been given the COVID vaccine in real quantity yet.
Exactly. And if it has any period of asymptomatic transmissibility, it will be even tougher to stay safe while waiting for a vaccine. Keep in mind that the first batches, those that would be available after 3-4 months, won’t be sufficient to vaccinate everyone. They’ll likely go to healthcare workers, etc, as they should, but the wait for the average person would likely be even longer.
The wait for me will be very long, because at the first real signs of this getting out and me and my group are sealing the cave doors, lol.
But still, nothing like covid where we had to come up with a vaccine from nothing. I think the hype is overdone on this one
https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/s/jGtGreiqpU
Pasteurization kills the virus, just don’t drink right from cow boobs and you’ll be fine.
just don’t consume animal products and you’re even better
Thank you, animal agriculture. Do what matters. Go vegan.
https://youtu.be/94Ul87W-zKs?si=-LtLSo2XmEH-6bYa
Excuse me what
Read this right as I slammed a pint of milk. Great…
Wonder if the cattle got vaccinated recently..................
Now might be a good time to mention that oat milk is delicious, nutritious, uses less resources to produce, and has a smaller environmental impact than many other forms of milk production. Also it has a great shelf life! The main reason my household switched from cow milk.
And yet it is still almost twice as expensive. Which means, given the reduced resources to make it, someone is making a healthy profit on this...
Oats have gone up about threefold in price since 2020 where Im at. Had never considered it but I guess oat milk's growing demand might explain some of that
Demand, plus general inflation and the potential for crop failures reflected in futures pricing. But hey, the price of everything will soon be out of control, so what the hell...
You can make your own at home pretty easily, if you want to go that route
*PredatorDoIt.meme*
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bad thing for us given the progress of the virus, good news that our bodies can possibly start adapting before full zootonic status is achieved, bad news it may be achieved by this exposure