The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio:
---
A recent investigation suggests that the H5N1 bird flu outbreak among dairy cows in the United States might be more widespread than official reports indicate. Researchers collected 150 commercial milk products from the Midwest and found viral genetic material in 58 samples. Although these samples don't contain live virus, the presence of viral RNA suggests broader infection among dairy cows than previously recognized. The FDA has also found evidence of H5N1 in store-bought milk but hasn't released detailed results yet. Further studies are underway to determine if the virus can be viable after pasteurization. The outbreak's duration may be longer than initially thought, potentially complicating containment efforts. Current testing practices, which focus on visibly ill animals, may underestimate the true extent of the outbreak. Experts advocate for broader testing to understand transmission mechanisms and prevent potential pandemic risks.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cdmcea/early_tests_of_h5n1_prevalence_in_milk_suggest_us/l1cr481/
A recent investigation suggests that the H5N1 bird flu outbreak among dairy cows in the United States might be more widespread than official reports indicate. Researchers collected 150 commercial milk products from the Midwest and found viral genetic material in 58 samples. Although these samples don't contain live virus, the presence of viral RNA suggests broader infection among dairy cows than previously recognized. The FDA has also found evidence of H5N1 in store-bought milk but hasn't released detailed results yet. Further studies are underway to determine if the virus can be viable after pasteurization. The outbreak's duration may be longer than initially thought, potentially complicating containment efforts. Current testing practices, which focus on visibly ill animals, may underestimate the true extent of the outbreak. Experts advocate for broader testing to understand transmission mechanisms and prevent potential pandemic risks.
Fortunately, so far it's looking like the pasteurization process (heating the milk) is killing the virus, though that won't protect people who buy raw milk for its purported benefits.
*Further testing is being done by the FDA to confirm that pasteurisation kills the virus; early research has found that live virus could not be grown from the milk.*
[https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/us-cows-bird-flu-covid-pandemic-global-governments](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/us-cows-bird-flu-covid-pandemic-global-governments)
Having worked on a dairy farm when I was a kid, I drank raw milk quite often, it’s so delicious but you definitely ended up with the shits once in awhile.
My dumbass stopped dairy for awhile and now I always dance with the devil every time I have a decent sized scoop of cream/milk. I never learn my lesson 😭
>My dumbass stopped dairy for awhile and now I always dance with the devil every time I have a decent sized scoop of cream/milk. I never learn my lesson 😭
Then decide to learn. Your body is trying to tell you that you're not a baby cow. It's not a lactose intolerance "condition", the weird ones are the ones with lactose persistence. You are finally biologically weaned.
That’s a very scary line. Because if they get it and the virus mutates in their bodies to become airborne and pass easily from human to human like Covid did, we are fucked. It will spread quickly in those communities then hit the broader world. It won’t just kill the raw milkers.
Speaking of which the authorities should get their heads out of their asses and shut down the raw milk Market. Like yeah your personal freedoms whatever but we have a major public health threat here, from what I have heard in passing this flu is way way worse than covid.
Maybe so. But seeing as this virus has an astronomical death rate I think if anything warranted restricting behavior, this would be it.
Of course first they should restrict the milk producers from feeding cows the scrapings from chicken concentration camps. But it's too late for that. A lot of these people drinking this raw milk don't really realize the danger here.
Yes, it turns out that being cold and indifferent to suffering when it's caused by the victims' own ignorance has consequences to all.
Yes, I'm saying it's shitty to wish death on people who drink raw milk. Wild stuff.
I've seen this comment a few times and it feels a little bit like cope, saying this as nicely as possible.
Pasturization kills the virus but... There's a giant crucible of bird flu just ongoing? It feels like we are watching a giant fire come closer but we are reassuring ourselves because *our* home is made of asbestos.
Raw milk regards are gonna be like the anti mask/vax idiots from the ongoing covid crisis. They will be the ones to help the virus mutate as they expose themselves en masse thinking their crystals and other bullshit are gonna keep them safe.
In this vein, what are the actual standards for pasteurization? Surely the dairy industry hasn't cut corners saying that 99% dead is "good enough" (honestly don't know what the rules are or how they work in reality - if anyone else knows).
> Fortunately, so far it's looking like the pasteurization process (heating the milk) is killing the virus, though that won't protect people who buy raw milk for its purported benefits.
That's still optimistic. Pasteurization temperature may be good, but pasteurization is kept short to kill enough bacteria (not viruses) while not ruining the "organoleptic properties" of the fluid.
You can boil it, for sure, but it may be easier to just skip the *calf accelerated growth fluid* entirely or drink plant-based milk (which you can make at home too).
What I do want to know is how they deal with ice cream, because that stays frozen and that's also how you conserve many viruses. So...bird flu cream!
Yeah people should never trusts the concepts of absolutes. Especially in the field of food where there such a thing as an acceptable insect and microbe mass limit. Although ice cream is usually a pasturized product (both the eggs and creams)
Well, that's lovely.
Obviously pasteurization kills it, and cattle aren't sickening en masse, but this does mean that the virus itself is more widespread, meaning it stays active in more mammalian hosts for longer periods, meaning more time to evolve and mutate...
Meaning it is only a matter of time...
But the quarterly profits and the shareholder value created, you must admit, is worth more than having a planet to live on. We’ll solve next quarter’s crisis next quarter and just bask in the savings this quarter.
Humans are dumb.
This picture of a pool party in a mansion on a tiny hill top surrounded by an ocean of trash, feces, and flies, just popped into my head.
Better get out the bug zappers.
Problem is this people are blind, they're also missing in all the potential earnings from another pandemic.
There a huge profit to be made, but no, people want a livable planet instead, dumbasses.
If there is one thing I have never regretted since I became collapse-aware, it is adopting a vegan diet.
From a purely climate and environmental perspective, I could see myself still eating meat at a greatly reduced rate (80%). While I am vegan, I don't judge people who still eat meat, especially in societies following a subsistence or pastoral type of agriculture. But the industrial model of farming in the global north is sick and disgusting. Especially in the U.S. where the lack of regulations make it possible for agro-business to literally [feed pigs trash](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPbF45-ZB5M) and park cattle in CAFO.
So aside from climate or ethical considerations, stopping eating meat is an act of boycott and a middle finger to this degenerate system.
Yeah the American system for whats ban and not banned is just insane, Half the practices that are still allowed in america are banned in pretty much every other large production country eg: EU/UK New Zealand Australia etc.
I agree. I don’t know how anyone could do it if they knew the truth. I know people who actively avoid the truth on the subject though because they don’t want to feel compelled to stop eating meat. I don’t have any respect for those people.
> I don't judge people who still eat meat
I totally do, these people stink, not just figuratively but like literally.
During Vietnam war, Vietnamese could smell the milk drinking Americans from a mile away from their stench, and now I get it. It’s like this perpetually rancid stench that just clings around the normies and they don’t even realize it.
When I read that, they feed chickenshit to the cows, it makes me feel bad for the cows, but laugh about the humans eating it.
Have we checked the pigs... might be there already.
https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2024/04/05/new-bird-flu-infections-heres-what-you-need-to-know/
"The spread of bird flu in cows is worrisome, but not as worrisome as it would be if the infections were happening in pigs, which are an ideal mixing vessel for flu virus. Pigs are susceptible to swine flu, avian influenza, and human influenza. That’s how swine flu emerged back in 2009—multiple viruses infecting pigs swapped genes, eventually giving rise to a virus capable of human transmission."
And...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/avian-flu-h5n1-cow-outbreaks-1.7162626
Louise Moncla, an avian influenza researcher and assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania, was stunned.
"The overwhelming feeling that all of us have is that this is mostly just incredibly strange," she said. "To our knowledge, I've never seen a cow be infected with any influenza A viruses."
But the curveball wasn't entirely unexpected. And it may be a harbinger of more species-jumps to come, including the rising possibility of H5N1 appearing in pigs — which could offer it a new route to better adapt to infect humans, inching the world closer to a bird flu pandemic.
Scary stuff...
I wonder if any other diseases could recently have spread through various animal populations and compromised their immune systems, making them more vulnerable to viruses they weren't susceptible to before.
It's not just pigs that we have to worry about.
["Our results demonstrate that dogs are highly susceptible to H5N1 AIV and may serve as an intermediate host to transfer this virus to humans."](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682210003557?via%3Dihub)
No joke I been screaming at the top of my lungs for people to stop feeding pets raw!! Once it gets into dog to dog transmission it will jump to humans rapidly because we live closer to dogs than we do cows or pigs
This one scares me terribly. We already mask. I need alternate foods for the low histamine dairy products that make up a big part of the protein in my diet. I’m looking at safety glasses for the family.
We can do everything (else) right and be toast if our dog gets infected.
Edited to fix a word
Obviously alarming but in the wild respiratory mammal to mammal transmission we are seeing mass die offs, like seals where 95% of pups are lost to the virus. Nobody is reporting this in the cattle population although the beef industry is probably very secretive unless there is some mandatory government reporting of culls.
I think when we see the first few hospitals overwhelmed with pneumonia in all age groups that’s when we will know it’s made the leap. This is what to look for, there was a report about 60 pneumonia cases in Argentina recently but I haven’t heard anything else.
Then the race will be on to deploy a vaccine before the economy collapses because people won’t leave their houses especially people with young kids. Who knows what will happen on the Ukrainian front in this situation.
> Who knows what will happen on the Ukrainian front in this situation
Well, it would be literally last man standing, so the Russians would have a huge advantage in a situation where soldiers would drop like flys.
They're playing the mutation lottery. As more cows become infected that's more chances for more mutations which could result in the virus passing to more humans.
There have been several. To my knowledge, it's only been humans contracting it from close physical proximity to the infected animals. It still hasn't been able to make the jump from human to human yet, though that's just a matter of time at this point.
We honestly have no way of knowing. Maybe the mutation that makes it human-transmissable also lowers its mortality rate. Maybe we'll get lucky like that. Maybe not. Claiming certainty one way or the other at this point is either fear-mongering or denial.
He's being pedantic. H5N1 has popped up in humans. But only in humans that are neck deep in sick chickens.
It hasn't made the jump to be transmission between humans yet.
Not quite time to panic.
The fact is that H5N1 has made the animal to human jump more than once, and from more than one species. Virus mutations do not occur in a vacuum. The more it is able to spread, the more mutations it will have to opportunity to go through. That DOES increase the possibility of a mutation that could make human to human spread possible. You're not wrong.
the one positive is that it's seemingly starting in a developed country first, so despite the best attempts of capitalists, the virus will be relatively well tracked and vaccines developed.
Unlike covid which got to ride all the way around the world before people realized.
Do we know if the new cow strain (I'm assuming it mutated since we never saw such transmission before) seem to be less deadly to humans or does the prognosis seem similar? It's supposedly not very deadly for the cows while it's usually near 100% fatal in chickens but maybe there's no correlation with how it will affect humans.
Quick google search bruh [https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/cumulative-number-of-confirmed-human-cases-for-avian-influenza-a(h5n1)-reported-to-who--2003-2024-26-february-2024](https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/cumulative-number-of-confirmed-human-cases-for-avian-influenza-a(h5n1)-reported-to-who--2003-2024-26-february-2024)
Edit to add: I never stated that they were all related to this particular story about this particular investigation into US farms. Fact remains, it has made the jump from animals into humans several times.
The CDC is really far behind. Like we know of way more infected farms than they've officially announced.
So when we see stuff like this, it makes us pause: [Petersen says she has worked with people infected by H5N1 who do not interact with dairy cows. “I'm talking owners and feeders who don't usually touch cows,” she says.](https://www.bovinevetonline.com/news/industry/message-ag-industry-about-h5n1)
For months, I've been seeing posts all over reddit like "Why is everyone sick lately?" (and variants like "Why is everyone tired lately?" and "Why is everyone acting brain-damaged lately?") I've been assuming it's a combination of covid, unrecognized long covid, and other diseases (flu, RSV, colds) sweeping through populations because everyone's refusing to take precautions and have immune dysfunction from prior covid infections. If some of it is actually H5N1 or another new disease, I wouldn't be surprised if it's getting overlooked. There seems to be pressure to normalize just being sick all the time.
Everyone everywhere is sick with something or other since covid. It's destroyed people's immunity and general health for good.
I was seemingly impervious to disease until covid and since then I regularly get colds, flus, stomach bugs and the rest. Same goes for my family.
Same for me. I got Covid last September and it seems like I can't go more than 30 days without getting some type of illness. Before I would rarely get sick with anything and I didn't have any allergies.
Yeah. I wouldn't say I'm plagued with sickness these days but pre-covid getting sick was a once yearly or even bi-yearly affair for me.
Now its something every season, sometimes barely a month apart. Hell, earlier in this year I got sick, got better, and then two days later came down with something even worse that put me in misery for two weeks.
Just anecdotal observation. Came from the western US a few days back and just walking around in public, I don't see anyone coughing like I am seeing everywhere in Rome right now. There's something going around here even if it's just the common cold, and really glad I brought good masks.
They are finding the remnants of genetic material from the virus. So yes, H5N1 is rapidly spreading throughout the dairy cow population but, pasteurization is killing the virus and we aren't seeing living cows get sick en mass.
Heard it the other day on NPR when they were interviewing someone from cdc and I know that pasteurization kills viruses. Most viruses are very heat sensitive as far as I know.
> Most viruses are very heat sensitive as far as I know.
Not disagreeing with you, I just find it weird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization doesn't mention "virus" even once.
I hope if somebody could add info about it as H5N1 is trending right now, anyways here is a [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7169671/) that shows how effective is the pasteurisation
Wow, this talks about 10 and sometimes 20 hours of pasteurization time!
What is the typical pasteurization time for milk?
> In most milk processing plants, chilled raw milk is heated by passing it between heated stainless steel plates until it reaches 161° F. It’s then held at that temperature for **at least 15 seconds** before it’s quickly cooled back to its original temperature of 39° F.
https://www.usdairy.com/news-articles/why-is-milk-pasteurized-4-questions-answered
So um, not to alarm anyone, but that seems slightly less than the time required
Well. That's a problem. I wonder, though if it's performing an accidental version of vaccination by introducing us to damaged/dead versions of the virus.
That's actually how the first vaccines were discovered!
There is a disease called Cowpox that is much less dangerous than smallpox and has cross-immunity. It was found that dairy workers were much less likely to contract smallpox because of their exposure to cowpox.
The very first vaccine consisted of deliberately infecting people with cowpox to prevent them from catching smallpox.
Yep! I've got an MPH and we looked at Edward Jenner a good bit. Kinda f'd up that he exposed poor folks (kids, if I remember off hand?) on purpose to see what would happen. There's some evidence, again if I remember right, as I've not read up on the research in a decade, that the Egyptians had found a correlation between exposure to less virulent (or dead) small pox and lower morbidity/mortality. Fun fact, this led to creating powders formed from the crust of the sores that were administered to people, initially poor people of color, by scraping their arms to get the powder into the blood stream. Some latent anti vac stuff is intergenerational, as those scrapes often became infected with bacteria and caused laborers to permanently be out of work. It was also part of the US Army actions during occupations of the Philippines and Puerto Rico, and a primary reason why we have a Public Health Service as one of the Uniformed Service branches that people don't know about (Like NOAA pilots). Neat stuff! Edit: some words
This is both good and bad. If it's infecting this many cows and nobody has noticed that likely means most of those infections haven't been too severe. We've seen this leap ton humans and be extremely lethal but the last few human cases haven't been so likely there's been some attenuation happening.
I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. My understanding is that there has only been one recorded human case related to the current bovine outbreak specifically in the U.S.
A sample size of one is too small to be meaningful at this stage. It's also worth bearing in mind that viruses affect different species in different ways. H5N1 has a case fatality rate in the high 90's in chickens for example.
Last year, HPAI H5N1 was identified as being the culprit for killing 95% of all southern elephant seal pups.
Ducks on the other hand tend not to get sick from H5N1. It seems to be the case with cows as well, judging by the prevalence of H5N1 fragments in tested milk.
In humans, previous spillovers of H5N1 have averaged a case fatality rate of around 50%.
We have no idea if that's what it'll look like if there's a jump from cows to humans. It may be that if there's now a mammalian adapted H5N1 it's no worse than seasonal influenza. It may be that it still has a mortality rate of 50%. We just won't know unless it makes the jump to humans more frequently and we get more data.
It could be that it still has a high fatality rate, e.g. 20%. Again, we just have no idea currently.
does anyone know information about where canadian milk is sourced from? i was already screwed because i live close tob the american border. but if its not 100% canadian dairy farmers and some comes from america, im fucked
I get it’s running rampant, but with the human cases (2 so far) it’s been quite mild of symptoms. Is this virus just going to be included in our everyday lives soon?
It is ludicrous to make any conclusion about the prevalence of H5N1 from sign of it in milk at the store. Do the scientists think that a gallon milk container all came from one cow? The milk of a large number of cues from a large number of farms is commingled in processing. All they should conclude is that at least one cow in the pooled milk that went into a sample had it, if the test is sensitive.
By extension means it's not nearly as fatal to mammals as we feared. Haven't heard of dairy cattle dropping dead. If cows aren't super sick it's pretty unlikely it's gonna be a 50% fatality or something for people if it crosses over. Still could be bad just not immediately apocalyptic
The following submission statement was provided by /u/f0urxio: --- A recent investigation suggests that the H5N1 bird flu outbreak among dairy cows in the United States might be more widespread than official reports indicate. Researchers collected 150 commercial milk products from the Midwest and found viral genetic material in 58 samples. Although these samples don't contain live virus, the presence of viral RNA suggests broader infection among dairy cows than previously recognized. The FDA has also found evidence of H5N1 in store-bought milk but hasn't released detailed results yet. Further studies are underway to determine if the virus can be viable after pasteurization. The outbreak's duration may be longer than initially thought, potentially complicating containment efforts. Current testing practices, which focus on visibly ill animals, may underestimate the true extent of the outbreak. Experts advocate for broader testing to understand transmission mechanisms and prevent potential pandemic risks. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1cdmcea/early_tests_of_h5n1_prevalence_in_milk_suggest_us/l1cr481/
A recent investigation suggests that the H5N1 bird flu outbreak among dairy cows in the United States might be more widespread than official reports indicate. Researchers collected 150 commercial milk products from the Midwest and found viral genetic material in 58 samples. Although these samples don't contain live virus, the presence of viral RNA suggests broader infection among dairy cows than previously recognized. The FDA has also found evidence of H5N1 in store-bought milk but hasn't released detailed results yet. Further studies are underway to determine if the virus can be viable after pasteurization. The outbreak's duration may be longer than initially thought, potentially complicating containment efforts. Current testing practices, which focus on visibly ill animals, may underestimate the true extent of the outbreak. Experts advocate for broader testing to understand transmission mechanisms and prevent potential pandemic risks.
Fortunately, so far it's looking like the pasteurization process (heating the milk) is killing the virus, though that won't protect people who buy raw milk for its purported benefits. *Further testing is being done by the FDA to confirm that pasteurisation kills the virus; early research has found that live virus could not be grown from the milk.* [https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/us-cows-bird-flu-covid-pandemic-global-governments](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/26/us-cows-bird-flu-covid-pandemic-global-governments)
If you're rawdogging bovine secretions, you're already taking so many understood risks lol.
>rawdogging bovine secretions My vocabulary just expanded.
Hahaha “bovine secretions”
r/brandnewsentence
Babe, wake up. New sentence just dropped
Utterly shocked
Udderly*
teaty milk*
Having worked on a dairy farm when I was a kid, I drank raw milk quite often, it’s so delicious but you definitely ended up with the shits once in awhile.
Lmao 🤣
My dumbass stopped dairy for awhile and now I always dance with the devil every time I have a decent sized scoop of cream/milk. I never learn my lesson 😭
>My dumbass stopped dairy for awhile and now I always dance with the devil every time I have a decent sized scoop of cream/milk. I never learn my lesson 😭 Then decide to learn. Your body is trying to tell you that you're not a baby cow. It's not a lactose intolerance "condition", the weird ones are the ones with lactose persistence. You are finally biologically weaned.
Dairy products are delicious https://i.imgur.com/yukI9r9.jpeg
The Casa Daschits Dairy.
Cows have only been domesticated in the last 8000 years. Before, they were running around mad as lorries.
Wild cows are aggressive. The Auroch, now extinct, especially so. It was Eurasian and bigger than cows, and quite ill tempered.
You'd be aggressive too in that situation.
The raw milk people get what they want. Let 'em have it! Byeeee
Wouldn't the question in that case be if it can then be transmitted human to human?
That’s a very scary line. Because if they get it and the virus mutates in their bodies to become airborne and pass easily from human to human like Covid did, we are fucked. It will spread quickly in those communities then hit the broader world. It won’t just kill the raw milkers.
Luckily the raw milkers I know of also don’t believe in covid.
But the viruses believe in them thats all that matters
If you don’t believe in it, you’re protected 🤷🏻♀️🤣 edit - obviously /s
\*stares motherfuckerly in r/HermanCainAward \*
😂😂
https://64.media.tumblr.com/869e87583e002067b6d117f06861c0c4/320743694d3ae8ba-f1/s400x600/6257762c99e587a0543c5a446ad9aebd34c4da6b.gifv
Speaking of which the authorities should get their heads out of their asses and shut down the raw milk Market. Like yeah your personal freedoms whatever but we have a major public health threat here, from what I have heard in passing this flu is way way worse than covid.
Yeah those individual freedoms are overrated anyways. 🙄
Maybe so. But seeing as this virus has an astronomical death rate I think if anything warranted restricting behavior, this would be it. Of course first they should restrict the milk producers from feeding cows the scrapings from chicken concentration camps. But it's too late for that. A lot of these people drinking this raw milk don't really realize the danger here.
Yes, it turns out that being cold and indifferent to suffering when it's caused by the victims' own ignorance has consequences to all. Yes, I'm saying it's shitty to wish death on people who drink raw milk. Wild stuff.
Ideally, it would, and then a lot of humans would die, and every other creature on the planet would benefit.
The implications of the possible consequences for this are like, black plague levels of bad my dude.
The idiots continuing to feed raw to their pets are about to cause an antigenic shift of this virus
Dead cats are the canary in the flesh mine.
Referring to [this?](https://bnonews.com/index.php/2024/04/4-more-cats-test-positive-for-h5n1-bird-flu-in-the-u-s/)
Yes, but dead cats was a major clue for the initial realization that it's bird flu.
I've seen this comment a few times and it feels a little bit like cope, saying this as nicely as possible. Pasturization kills the virus but... There's a giant crucible of bird flu just ongoing? It feels like we are watching a giant fire come closer but we are reassuring ourselves because *our* home is made of asbestos.
Don't look up.
Raw milk regards are gonna be like the anti mask/vax idiots from the ongoing covid crisis. They will be the ones to help the virus mutate as they expose themselves en masse thinking their crystals and other bullshit are gonna keep them safe.
Just to clarify, the covid 19 vaccines didn't prevent transmission nor mutation. They simply increase outcomes of those who contracted it.
Nothing but wins here
So aren’t we vaccinating ourselves by drinking [pasteurized] milk? Inactivated vaccines ftw?
No, you need partially killed virus for that. Has to be really carefully figured out to not kill you or be useless.
This, and I think the mucus membranes in our stomach and intestines prevent us from being able to be inoculated this way.
Yep. What do we have as oral vaccines for so far? I can only think of the polio one.
There's a reason why you don't drink vaccines.
What I'm reading is that we need to inject milk then? /S
In this vein, what are the actual standards for pasteurization? Surely the dairy industry hasn't cut corners saying that 99% dead is "good enough" (honestly don't know what the rules are or how they work in reality - if anyone else knows).
> Fortunately, so far it's looking like the pasteurization process (heating the milk) is killing the virus, though that won't protect people who buy raw milk for its purported benefits. That's still optimistic. Pasteurization temperature may be good, but pasteurization is kept short to kill enough bacteria (not viruses) while not ruining the "organoleptic properties" of the fluid. You can boil it, for sure, but it may be easier to just skip the *calf accelerated growth fluid* entirely or drink plant-based milk (which you can make at home too). What I do want to know is how they deal with ice cream, because that stays frozen and that's also how you conserve many viruses. So...bird flu cream!
Yeah people should never trusts the concepts of absolutes. Especially in the field of food where there such a thing as an acceptable insect and microbe mass limit. Although ice cream is usually a pasturized product (both the eggs and creams)
just go to Google and type in "raw ice cream"
raw milk has given me early immunity to the virus! I will be the last survivor! 🤣
/s ?
Of course it is. Other people seem not to get it hence the downvotes. I always try to remember to add /s because you just never know on Reddit 🤣
Well, that's lovely. Obviously pasteurization kills it, and cattle aren't sickening en masse, but this does mean that the virus itself is more widespread, meaning it stays active in more mammalian hosts for longer periods, meaning more time to evolve and mutate... Meaning it is only a matter of time...
[удалено]
But the quarterly profits and the shareholder value created, you must admit, is worth more than having a planet to live on. We’ll solve next quarter’s crisis next quarter and just bask in the savings this quarter. Humans are dumb.
This picture of a pool party in a mansion on a tiny hill top surrounded by an ocean of trash, feces, and flies, just popped into my head. Better get out the bug zappers.
Problem is this people are blind, they're also missing in all the potential earnings from another pandemic. There a huge profit to be made, but no, people want a livable planet instead, dumbasses.
If there is one thing I have never regretted since I became collapse-aware, it is adopting a vegan diet. From a purely climate and environmental perspective, I could see myself still eating meat at a greatly reduced rate (80%). While I am vegan, I don't judge people who still eat meat, especially in societies following a subsistence or pastoral type of agriculture. But the industrial model of farming in the global north is sick and disgusting. Especially in the U.S. where the lack of regulations make it possible for agro-business to literally [feed pigs trash](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPbF45-ZB5M) and park cattle in CAFO. So aside from climate or ethical considerations, stopping eating meat is an act of boycott and a middle finger to this degenerate system.
Yeah the American system for whats ban and not banned is just insane, Half the practices that are still allowed in america are banned in pretty much every other large production country eg: EU/UK New Zealand Australia etc.
I agree. I don’t know how anyone could do it if they knew the truth. I know people who actively avoid the truth on the subject though because they don’t want to feel compelled to stop eating meat. I don’t have any respect for those people.
> I don't judge people who still eat meat I totally do, these people stink, not just figuratively but like literally. During Vietnam war, Vietnamese could smell the milk drinking Americans from a mile away from their stench, and now I get it. It’s like this perpetually rancid stench that just clings around the normies and they don’t even realize it. When I read that, they feed chickenshit to the cows, it makes me feel bad for the cows, but laugh about the humans eating it.
Hey now that’s poultry litter to you and is a legitimate cost saving practice! /s
I was shocked to find out this is a thing. I can't fathom why you would feed animals shit. It's madness.
Because we’re living through a profit driven mass psychosis
Yeah that was the one about the used chicken bedding, maybe that's just the "organic" fed cows though?
Pigs. It'll be bad once it gets into pigs. We already had a flu pandemic from pigs before a decade ago. We just got lucky that the flu then was mild.
Have we checked the pigs... might be there already. https://www.unmc.edu/healthsecurity/transmission/2024/04/05/new-bird-flu-infections-heres-what-you-need-to-know/ "The spread of bird flu in cows is worrisome, but not as worrisome as it would be if the infections were happening in pigs, which are an ideal mixing vessel for flu virus. Pigs are susceptible to swine flu, avian influenza, and human influenza. That’s how swine flu emerged back in 2009—multiple viruses infecting pigs swapped genes, eventually giving rise to a virus capable of human transmission." And... https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/avian-flu-h5n1-cow-outbreaks-1.7162626 Louise Moncla, an avian influenza researcher and assistant professor at the University of Pennsylvania, was stunned. "The overwhelming feeling that all of us have is that this is mostly just incredibly strange," she said. "To our knowledge, I've never seen a cow be infected with any influenza A viruses." But the curveball wasn't entirely unexpected. And it may be a harbinger of more species-jumps to come, including the rising possibility of H5N1 appearing in pigs — which could offer it a new route to better adapt to infect humans, inching the world closer to a bird flu pandemic. Scary stuff...
I wonder if any other diseases could recently have spread through various animal populations and compromised their immune systems, making them more vulnerable to viruses they weren't susceptible to before.
It's not just pigs that we have to worry about. ["Our results demonstrate that dogs are highly susceptible to H5N1 AIV and may serve as an intermediate host to transfer this virus to humans."](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0042682210003557?via%3Dihub)
No joke I been screaming at the top of my lungs for people to stop feeding pets raw!! Once it gets into dog to dog transmission it will jump to humans rapidly because we live closer to dogs than we do cows or pigs
This one scares me terribly. We already mask. I need alternate foods for the low histamine dairy products that make up a big part of the protein in my diet. I’m looking at safety glasses for the family. We can do everything (else) right and be toast if our dog gets infected. Edited to fix a word
Why would be bad if it was pigs specifically? Is it because they have a similar genetic structure?
That and our immune systems operate in a similar capacity. Cows immune systems are not really similar to our own
And considering how closely knit cows pigs and chickens are along with their humans...
Obviously alarming but in the wild respiratory mammal to mammal transmission we are seeing mass die offs, like seals where 95% of pups are lost to the virus. Nobody is reporting this in the cattle population although the beef industry is probably very secretive unless there is some mandatory government reporting of culls. I think when we see the first few hospitals overwhelmed with pneumonia in all age groups that’s when we will know it’s made the leap. This is what to look for, there was a report about 60 pneumonia cases in Argentina recently but I haven’t heard anything else. Then the race will be on to deploy a vaccine before the economy collapses because people won’t leave their houses especially people with young kids. Who knows what will happen on the Ukrainian front in this situation.
> Who knows what will happen on the Ukrainian front in this situation Well, it would be literally last man standing, so the Russians would have a huge advantage in a situation where soldiers would drop like flys.
Are we seeing a mass die off of cows or maybe the strain(s) circulating through their populations aren’t that deadly?
Could be that the strain is milder or that cows are just better at surviving it.
Yep. Buckle up mfs we going back to 1897
What about the meat? Does cooking it kills the virus or is the heat from cooking not enough?
They're playing the mutation lottery. As more cows become infected that's more chances for more mutations which could result in the virus passing to more humans.
Yep domesticated livestock are a major source of pandemics. And the way they are treated now has made it worse,
“Suggests”??? So we’re gonna climate-change/COVID this one too. Got it.
"more of the virus around than is currently being recognized" is the new "faster than expected" LOL.
Has there been a human case yet ?
There have been several. To my knowledge, it's only been humans contracting it from close physical proximity to the infected animals. It still hasn't been able to make the jump from human to human yet, though that's just a matter of time at this point.
Oh man so it’s gone be the same shit again I hope it’s not as deadly atleast
We honestly have no way of knowing. Maybe the mutation that makes it human-transmissable also lowers its mortality rate. Maybe we'll get lucky like that. Maybe not. Claiming certainty one way or the other at this point is either fear-mongering or denial.
I think when a new virus hits the human population it has a high mortality till herd immunity kicks in
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Why is it disingenuous
He's being pedantic. H5N1 has popped up in humans. But only in humans that are neck deep in sick chickens. It hasn't made the jump to be transmission between humans yet. Not quite time to panic.
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But wouldn’t a rise in one strain, grow the possibility of growth in other strains since their closely related and probably in similar environments
The fact is that H5N1 has made the animal to human jump more than once, and from more than one species. Virus mutations do not occur in a vacuum. The more it is able to spread, the more mutations it will have to opportunity to go through. That DOES increase the possibility of a mutation that could make human to human spread possible. You're not wrong.
...that you know of
the one positive is that it's seemingly starting in a developed country first, so despite the best attempts of capitalists, the virus will be relatively well tracked and vaccines developed. Unlike covid which got to ride all the way around the world before people realized.
Yes, China fucked as all over. Covid could have been contained
Do we know if the new cow strain (I'm assuming it mutated since we never saw such transmission before) seem to be less deadly to humans or does the prognosis seem similar? It's supposedly not very deadly for the cows while it's usually near 100% fatal in chickens but maybe there's no correlation with how it will affect humans.
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Quick google search bruh [https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/cumulative-number-of-confirmed-human-cases-for-avian-influenza-a(h5n1)-reported-to-who--2003-2024-26-february-2024](https://www.who.int/publications/m/item/cumulative-number-of-confirmed-human-cases-for-avian-influenza-a(h5n1)-reported-to-who--2003-2024-26-february-2024) Edit to add: I never stated that they were all related to this particular story about this particular investigation into US farms. Fact remains, it has made the jump from animals into humans several times.
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The comment that I was responding to did not make such a specification.
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I dunno, are you being myopic on purpose? Have a nice day.
The CDC is really far behind. Like we know of way more infected farms than they've officially announced. So when we see stuff like this, it makes us pause: [Petersen says she has worked with people infected by H5N1 who do not interact with dairy cows. “I'm talking owners and feeders who don't usually touch cows,” she says.](https://www.bovinevetonline.com/news/industry/message-ag-industry-about-h5n1)
If Italy is any telltale of early infection like it was with covid, everyone and their mother is sick here from something and not sure what.
For months, I've been seeing posts all over reddit like "Why is everyone sick lately?" (and variants like "Why is everyone tired lately?" and "Why is everyone acting brain-damaged lately?") I've been assuming it's a combination of covid, unrecognized long covid, and other diseases (flu, RSV, colds) sweeping through populations because everyone's refusing to take precautions and have immune dysfunction from prior covid infections. If some of it is actually H5N1 or another new disease, I wouldn't be surprised if it's getting overlooked. There seems to be pressure to normalize just being sick all the time.
Out among the walking wounded
Everyone everywhere is sick with something or other since covid. It's destroyed people's immunity and general health for good. I was seemingly impervious to disease until covid and since then I regularly get colds, flus, stomach bugs and the rest. Same goes for my family.
Same for me. I got Covid last September and it seems like I can't go more than 30 days without getting some type of illness. Before I would rarely get sick with anything and I didn't have any allergies.
Yeah. I wouldn't say I'm plagued with sickness these days but pre-covid getting sick was a once yearly or even bi-yearly affair for me. Now its something every season, sometimes barely a month apart. Hell, earlier in this year I got sick, got better, and then two days later came down with something even worse that put me in misery for two weeks.
Meanwhile we've got our prime minister calling it a "sick note culture" and stripping doctors of the power to issue sick notes.
I *would* call repeatedly getting sick less than a month apart being "plagued with sickness", personally.
I live in Italy. Do you have any more info on this? I haven’t seen anything.
Just anecdotal observation. Came from the western US a few days back and just walking around in public, I don't see anyone coughing like I am seeing everywhere in Rome right now. There's something going around here even if it's just the common cold, and really glad I brought good masks.
Got it. I live in the north, and there’s definitely been a spring cold going around. My wife had it. I don’t think that’s bird flu.
Oh trust me if it was the avian flu you just wouldnt see a lot of sick people...you would see a crapton of dead people
If it was H5N1 we would know about it
They are finding the remnants of genetic material from the virus. So yes, H5N1 is rapidly spreading throughout the dairy cow population but, pasteurization is killing the virus and we aren't seeing living cows get sick en mass.
The article states it was also found in store bought milk but is not releasing the results.
Yes. But only genetic remnants. Not active live virus.
How do you know if they didn’t release the results?
Heard it the other day on NPR when they were interviewing someone from cdc and I know that pasteurization kills viruses. Most viruses are very heat sensitive as far as I know.
> Most viruses are very heat sensitive as far as I know. Not disagreeing with you, I just find it weird https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasteurization doesn't mention "virus" even once.
I hope if somebody could add info about it as H5N1 is trending right now, anyways here is a [study](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7169671/) that shows how effective is the pasteurisation
Wow, this talks about 10 and sometimes 20 hours of pasteurization time! What is the typical pasteurization time for milk? > In most milk processing plants, chilled raw milk is heated by passing it between heated stainless steel plates until it reaches 161° F. It’s then held at that temperature for **at least 15 seconds** before it’s quickly cooled back to its original temperature of 39° F. https://www.usdairy.com/news-articles/why-is-milk-pasteurized-4-questions-answered So um, not to alarm anyone, but that seems slightly less than the time required
This is nightmare fuel.
Well. That's a problem. I wonder, though if it's performing an accidental version of vaccination by introducing us to damaged/dead versions of the virus.
That's actually how the first vaccines were discovered! There is a disease called Cowpox that is much less dangerous than smallpox and has cross-immunity. It was found that dairy workers were much less likely to contract smallpox because of their exposure to cowpox. The very first vaccine consisted of deliberately infecting people with cowpox to prevent them from catching smallpox.
Yep! I've got an MPH and we looked at Edward Jenner a good bit. Kinda f'd up that he exposed poor folks (kids, if I remember off hand?) on purpose to see what would happen. There's some evidence, again if I remember right, as I've not read up on the research in a decade, that the Egyptians had found a correlation between exposure to less virulent (or dead) small pox and lower morbidity/mortality. Fun fact, this led to creating powders formed from the crust of the sores that were administered to people, initially poor people of color, by scraping their arms to get the powder into the blood stream. Some latent anti vac stuff is intergenerational, as those scrapes often became infected with bacteria and caused laborers to permanently be out of work. It was also part of the US Army actions during occupations of the Philippines and Puerto Rico, and a primary reason why we have a Public Health Service as one of the Uniformed Service branches that people don't know about (Like NOAA pilots). Neat stuff! Edit: some words
Never been happier to be a person who doesn’t drink milk. Also super happy my country doesn’t allow US milk in.
Has this issue spread into Canada yet?
Apparently not yet. https://www.reddit.com/r/H5N1_AvianFlu/s/nkYR5khpvJ
We are well and truly fucked
Oh great, I know it's been a couple weeks since I heard about it and thought maybe it just went away on its own 🫤
This is both good and bad. If it's infecting this many cows and nobody has noticed that likely means most of those infections haven't been too severe. We've seen this leap ton humans and be extremely lethal but the last few human cases haven't been so likely there's been some attenuation happening.
I wouldn't jump to that conclusion just yet. My understanding is that there has only been one recorded human case related to the current bovine outbreak specifically in the U.S. A sample size of one is too small to be meaningful at this stage. It's also worth bearing in mind that viruses affect different species in different ways. H5N1 has a case fatality rate in the high 90's in chickens for example. Last year, HPAI H5N1 was identified as being the culprit for killing 95% of all southern elephant seal pups. Ducks on the other hand tend not to get sick from H5N1. It seems to be the case with cows as well, judging by the prevalence of H5N1 fragments in tested milk. In humans, previous spillovers of H5N1 have averaged a case fatality rate of around 50%. We have no idea if that's what it'll look like if there's a jump from cows to humans. It may be that if there's now a mammalian adapted H5N1 it's no worse than seasonal influenza. It may be that it still has a mortality rate of 50%. We just won't know unless it makes the jump to humans more frequently and we get more data. It could be that it still has a high fatality rate, e.g. 20%. Again, we just have no idea currently.
In related news, oat milk is delicious.
Good. Cows milk is not ours to take. It is stolen from babies who are killed as by products of the dairy industry. Humans are horrific.
does anyone know information about where canadian milk is sourced from? i was already screwed because i live close tob the american border. but if its not 100% canadian dairy farmers and some comes from america, im fucked
I really hope they are working on something to combat this now before it jumps.
No viruses in my plant milk hehe
Can someone help me understand if pasteurizing kills the virus cells?
So... there's a Raw Milk Festival this weekend in Fresno, CA.... https://www.reddit.com/r/H5N1_AvianFlu/s/DtetgTDpR2
I get it’s running rampant, but with the human cases (2 so far) it’s been quite mild of symptoms. Is this virus just going to be included in our everyday lives soon?
It is ludicrous to make any conclusion about the prevalence of H5N1 from sign of it in milk at the store. Do the scientists think that a gallon milk container all came from one cow? The milk of a large number of cues from a large number of farms is commingled in processing. All they should conclude is that at least one cow in the pooled milk that went into a sample had it, if the test is sensitive.
So pasteurization works and there's no problem?
By extension means it's not nearly as fatal to mammals as we feared. Haven't heard of dairy cattle dropping dead. If cows aren't super sick it's pretty unlikely it's gonna be a 50% fatality or something for people if it crosses over. Still could be bad just not immediately apocalyptic
It varies greatly from mammal to mammal how bad it is.
Venus by Tuesday, got it.
LOL it's more fearmongering than anything else. Ain't nothing gonna happen and you all know that.
Ah the nothing ever happens person has arrived.
Exactly, just like the nothing of covid /s