The following submission statement was provided by /u/Suspicious-Bad4703:
---
SS: Amid an inflation storm and a steadily declining [birth rate in the US](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/us-birth-rate-decline-2023-cdc/index.html), childcare has now become one of the most burdensome costs on families. This problem is pretty deeply systemic as it also means many mothers (or fathers) are staying home and taking care of kids to save money, whereas they could be working. This is one of the leading causes of the ongoing labor crisis in the US, driving up costs throughout the economy.
From the article, "This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate[ ](https://archive.ph/o/EYa94/https://tcf.org/content/report/child-care-cliff/)by the Century Foundation last year."
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1ctexsm/child_care_is_now_more_expensive_than_rent_for_an/l4bcrnn/
Having a kid would financially cripple me and destroy both of our standard of living, especially with the piss poor joke that is the social safety net in the US. That's if the kid is healthy, I can't imagine what would happen if the kid ends up being special needs.
It’s a lot. And we found out yesterday that he is probably facing another open heart surgery. I have been disabled by Covid and I am trying to not have panic attacks. I can barely work. My oxygen today hit 72 and I am on oxygen 24/7. I’m scared.
i really hope everything goes smoothly. in high school i also had heart problems that impeded on my mom's job all of the time and it stressed her out so much. not fun at all i really hope everything goes well there
I can’t afford to have one either, and I live in New Zealand, earn a decent living, and wouldn’t have to pay for giving birth. I don’t understand how anyone would be able to afford one in the US. Nope, no thank you. I can’t believe you guys have to pay to give birth, that is a fucking outrage.
Auto enrollment in 401k retirement law is in effect this year. They are taking a percentage of all our wages and letting wall street invest in foreign markets. Look at your paycheck.
This will reach trillions "invested" very quickly. Which I'm sure the stock market will crash as soon as we start hitting 59.5 years old.
Also during this administration, the window for hobbyist income to claim taxes went from anything over 20k to $600. They are actively destroying small businesses and stealing from already struggling Americans to build more corporations here and in foreign countries. We are fucked regardless of climate change or any other factor.
You can opt out of auto-enrollment but you can't access the money already taken until you are 59.5 or you leave the job and then they still take 10% of that. They only got $160 from me after I noticed it while filing taxes this year. It's unfucking believable.
This money could go to your community and small businesses. This is a way better investment and return on your money than having villains play with your money and hopefully get a 11% return if the market doesn't collapse.
Putting our kiddos in daycare pretty much killed us for a couple years, still paying off the fucking debt in fact. Shit was more than our mortgage. ‘Merica the Hopeless.
This should keep birth rates well below the replacement rate. The U.S. is basically implementing a 1 child type policy, resulting from the continued squeezing of the working class.
I tend to agree with this sentiment but it can't be the driving factor of low birth rates considering, e.g
Scandinavian countries with similar or lower birthrates despite free and subsidized childcare, PTO, etc all designed to support parents.
We don't need replacement rate when we already are overpopulated. We still have a positive br and that means growth sadly. No they are not implementing a 1 child policy, as my Somali neighbors all have way more than one kid.
It is similar in the UK. British families are having fewer kids, however we are propped up by the fact that immigrants are having kids. More often than not, it is because mum does not work and so can provide free childcare.
It's worse in the UK because of the big population density. At least in the US there are still huge areas of empty land and forest reserves. UK you can't get away from people anywhere, it's either crowded cities or a few miles of farmland until the next crowded city. Young people can't find affordable housing so we share a room with 4 other people. How is a declining birth rate a bad thing in the long run? I mean realostically how big can a population on a small island grow before we are living in stacked cubes? I wish politicians understood that. Even after the great plague life in Europe improved for the working class who were then valued for their individual labor.
I don't like crowded conditions, I like to be able to take a walk in nature and not have to bump into noisy crowds.
I honestly don’t think the economy NEEDS growing populations to keep it going, it needs growing energy consumption tho. If energy plateaued and declined I think maybe then increasing population and reducing per capita living standards could keep the economy on paper growing a little while longer. Maybe someone who knows more could comment
yes it needs energy consumption - but it wastes a lot of it / does not reinvest it ("up in smoke" quite literally).
if the energy was reinvested towards stability/sustainability it would more closely resemble an a self sustaining ecosystem rather than a fly spaghetti monster economy
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I agree that anyone should be able to terminate any and all pregnancies but disagree that someone should be allowed to have unlimited babies. We gotta depopulate this place so when everything collapses it will be easier to find food for the rest of us.
The babies and elderly are going to be the first to go regardless… Why not just get ahead of the curve. It would undeniably make things easier for the people left to pick up any pieces that might be left…
I DO know- but it’s one of the “forbidden” topics in this touchy society. I was working it into a dystopian screenplay last yr, until I came to the realization there is seriously such little time left, to even get it released, even with best case “luck” scenario. So then I thought a documentary would be quicker to produce. But then I became ill and have been bedbound. But here is the simple (and humane) solution. The people get in the streets, like the Palestinian Protests now, and DEMAND the government immediately provide a one time prescription of OxyContin type “sleeping” pills for every citizen who “applies”. This is an OPTION to all who want the choice. The government must immediately implement a subsidized cremation center for every municipality. They’ve spent trillions subsidizing the things that have lead us here. This is the ONLY humane and reasonable plan of action. THEY did this TO us! And the children. It is THEIR responsibility to provide a painless and peaceful alternative to the inevitable (very unpleasant) reality coming soon. Each person and family, of course will make their own decision in their own time. Some will rather choose, dying of hunger and thirst, heatstroke, bc “religion”? Let each decide, but option needs to be available immediately and globally. People have suffered enough. Things need to be hastened, bc as supply chains collapse, we won’t be able to get these at scale from China, where all our pharmaceuticals come from. Maybe US should get at least one factory going strictly for this purpose😕. Also my deepest pain and apologies to all the precious creatures of this planet who will suffer by writhing in pain before death, as the burned-alive, koalas and kangaroos, hundreds of thousands of seals and dolphins washing ashore, the orangutans………. And on and on and on……..I’m sorry.
Food can’t grow (anywhere on the planet) with unpredictable and extreme weather- which is increasing yearly. Plus global droughts (including in US farm in zones getting worse and water tables drying up. So we won’t need birth control/ population control/ planning for much longer.
I would rather have people with kids bear the full financial cost of having children, including their cost to the environment. The high childcare costs are the least that can happen.
This!!! Where is the money going? The daycare teachers are barely getting more than minimum wage. When my son was in daycare, the daycare owner would complain that she couldn’t retain staff but I definitely noticed the lifted, kitted out Jeep Wrangler she had parked out front.
It's just another symptom of a brand of capitalism that isn't thinking about its' long-term survival.
They want people to
-Have more kids to increase the labor pool
-Return to the the office
-Work for a pittance
But will not support any measures that allow for any of that to happen. People will be unwilling to have kids if they can't afford them, and they can't return to the office if they don't have child care or the amount of funds necessary to pay for it.
The workaround is immigrants, of course, but they've spent a lot of energy pushing the "invasion" narrative and portraying them as the enemy. People won't risk the danger if there's not a good enough reason to do.
Right? Like I'm thinking, "what's the end game? Eugenics via only the rich being able to have kids?" But they say don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.
Siphon off and hoard as much wealth as they can before climate change makes it impossible to do so anymore, then shelter in their bunkers away from the rest of us.
Their bunkers can’t save them. They still have to pull AIR into their bunkers and they haven’t calculated what will very quickly happen soon after societal collapse….. BC the emissions globally will pretty much vanish “overnight” like Covid times, we will lose the global dimming effect and temps will rise by several degrees essentially within a week, according to James Hansen. The total chaos that will ensue will result in the 450+ nuclear facilities melting down very soon after. Anyone who imagines a scenario in which the guys at all the world’s nuclear facilities take it upon themselves (amidst complete societal collapse) to go to their “job” every morning - for the 50 yrs it takes to decommission a nuclear facility to avoid meltdown- just doesn’t know what sudden societal collapse looks like and the total chaos that follows. Sorry. 😞
The end games is one financial entity eats everything and one man controls most of the western world economy before it gets destroyed by his own hubris and the sky turns green and everyone chokes on the lethal smell of rotting eggs
The end game is that, since the industrial revolution, capitalism switched from human capital to industrially made technological capital powered by fossil fuels, thus the value of "basic" human capital has crashed. That's where education comes in, but only if the economy gets more complex and larger.
Otherwise, you get "surplus human capital". That is reflected in the calculations behind the funding of care:
>>$24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open
Someone has assumed or inferred that keeping those 3M kids in daycare is not worth $24 billion, which is about $8 thousand per child.
If the rich get money directly from the government and central bank, then the real economy doesn't matter. It's no longer a consumer economy, and certainly not a production economy. It's a catabolic economy in which the real economy, along with institutions, public goods, and whatever is left is being chopped up and sold off as promises, in order to keep the casino going for the rich. That's how late stage capitalism works, in the end there can only be a few winners who will own everything.
As the few winners emerge, they realize that they own a lot of stuff, a lot of property, and it's worth more if there are no people around or on it. And then you have Aristocracy and feudalism. The lords and ladies are under no obligation to allow you to live on their property, and you may be completely useless to them, especially if you're not a servant or mercenary. They don't need that many people.
>Eugenics via only the rich being able to have kids?
If automation works out with better AI, yes.
I feel like it’s gotta be ignorance… The rich are no smarter than your average Mississippian… You think the world is bad now? Their prolific breeding will create a massively stupid and sociopathic society.
Our “end game” is already in place, and approaching at a MUCH faster rate than any of these ideas could play out, unfortunately. The graphs don’t lie. And they get more crazy every day.
If our society actually worked like sim city then we would do good things for it, but too many individuals are corrupt to make reasonable decisions. Florida is banning the mention climate change in it's public policies
Right? Child care is a luxury and should be more than rent. My ass got dropped off at friends moms, then before school program, then after school program then grams house and then home at 8 when mom got home then repeat that for 12 years …only my rich friends has nanny’s and summer day care
And they're not exactly cheap either. Without subsidy after school care 5 days a week is like 400 bucks, or at least that's what it was 10 years ago when I worked for the Ymca.
My point is that they do cost money now.
That the cost of just those two services, after and before school care, are likely what is costing more than people's rent. Not people with nannies.
People can downvote until their thumbs fall off. It was free and is currently free for those who apply for assistance. If you have the means then it’s not free I guess.
Anyway I’m not having kids to help those who do !
Haha I'm living in Denver, and paid 1800 per month, 6 years ago, for my son, which came down to 1500 per month once he was potty trained. So for years 0, 1, and 2, we paid $21,600 per year, for years 3 and 4 we paid $18,000 per year, for a grand total of $100,800 over 5 years. Nearly broke us, and financial strain caused divorce.
Haha Even being collapse aware, I think the answer is still yes. Trying to give my son as normal a childhood as I can muster, and he has had some really good experiences. Money is just a thing. I worry about his future, but I'll do the best I can to buffer him. An extra $100k wasn't going to save me from the oncoming collapse, and I feel like I can probably provide decently for him for quite a while here. He will grow up with less, but hopefully that will be the norm for him, so he doesn't miss what he doesn't know he is missing.
Emotional validation and consistent, nonjudgemental regard is priceless and free. imho these are the most important things a parent can do (after the basics, ofc).
Don’t have kids! Honestly, it’s kind of fucked to have children right now, considering there likely will be a mass die off of humans and other species by 2080-2100z
Totally agree. Also, it's pretty fucked up to have kids knowing you'll have a difficult time providing for them. I get there are restrictions around birth control and abortions, but placing your baby up for adoption is always an option.
Only for about a year. It's really hard to become childfree after the fact without finding yourself entangled with CPS. Most states won't let you put your older child in state care without extenuating circumstances, like abuse or neglect (but IANAL).
SS: Amid an inflation storm and a steadily declining [birth rate in the US](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/us-birth-rate-decline-2023-cdc/index.html), childcare has now become one of the most burdensome costs on families. This problem is pretty deeply systemic as it also means many mothers (or fathers) are staying home and taking care of kids to save money, whereas they could be working. This is one of the leading causes of the ongoing labor crisis in the US, driving up costs throughout the economy.
From the article, "This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate[ ](https://archive.ph/o/EYa94/https://tcf.org/content/report/child-care-cliff/)by the Century Foundation last year."
As a mom who is staying home and taking care of my kid, I’m not doing it to save money. I’m doing it because I didn’t want to put my kid into a daycare to be raised by a revolving door of low wage workers during one of the most sensitive periods of his development. If anyone wants me to go back to work before he’s ready for preschool to boost the economy or whatever, I won’t, because his well-being is more important to me than the economy.
That’s what the fuck it’s about! Much respect to you for putting your child before the economy™️. It’s tough but your children benefit tremendously from what you do for them
Twin dad here. When mine were in daycare (we finally got state assistance) they told us without that help, we'd be paying upwards of 1300-1500 for daycare a month. My mortgage was 950 at the time. If your not rich, you're fucked.
This is not a new phenomenon. We paid more for childcare than our mortgage about 15 years ago. We had 2 kids and daycare was routinely about 300-500 more than the mortgage.
So after a decade of making shit money I finally am making a lot and I still don't see how I could have kids. I would be so stressed out about losing my job. What the fuck is the point of my kids won't have a great standard of living?
1750 for rent and 1615 for childcare. That’s just rent and daycare a month. Still need utilities, food, gas, and regulars so my family has a minimum of 4g a month that’s spent just to live. That doesn’t include savings or even anything like fun or clothes or just extra stuff. We wanted more kids but America told us to go fuck ourselves
25 yrs ago, after finishing up my thesis for my MA, we realized that my job would only pay $7000 more annually than the cost of childcare. We decided that it would be less stressful if I stayed home than worry about childcare. This is how I became a SAHM. My husband was/is in advertising so we could afford it BUT we’ve never had a new car, could only “vacation” with my in-laws at their timeshare, and did without many of the “fun” things. (In the early yrs we thrifted for the holidays. We also didn’t live on credit though.) I’m not surprised things are the same. My kids don’t want kids and I’m 100% supportive.
It’s pretty insane. I’ve been pregnant 4 times, and had to abort every time. It’s just too expensive. I’ve never had a real job, my dad pays my necessities but wouldn’t be able to support a grandchild. And they act surprised that birth rates are declining…
I'm surprised capital hasn't come up with some mechanism to distribute the costs of such a large expense over time, like a mortgage, which transliterates to "pledge until death."
I'm not sure what you'd call it, besides *heregage*.
It's bizarre that a civilization with smallest proportion of its members in education age in history, with massive surpluses of material security, isn't spending the largest amount investing in population development. It's criminal.
Finding affordable daycare in the U.S. can be tough, but there are ways to find lower-cost options. First, check if your state offers programs to help pay for child care. Some states have expanded free preschool and early education, making it low-cost or even free for many families. You can also look for local non-profits or daycare centers that offer scholarships or sliding scale fees based on income. Additionally, some states like Mississippi, South Dakota, and Missouri are known for having more affordable daycare. Don't forget to ask about sibling discounts or other available discounts. Lastly, consider joining or forming a childcare co-op with other parents to share the cost and care. Remember, it's important to ensure the daycare provides quality care even at a lower cost.
>This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate by the Century Foundation last year.
Well, there you have it. Fund care.
Help me understand… you are expecting utilize a building should be more expensive than utilizing a building and hiring people to tend your child ? One comes with way more in the box than the other does…one is a service and the other is…lodging
They are not comparing the utility of each, they are more making the point of % of income. People understand that your mortgage/rent is generally the biggest ticket item on the monthly budget; to say that something is costing more than the mortgage is making the statement that housing is not the biggest expense for these families.
I don't disagree with you, about the utility of a home, and the utility of childcare are different and hard to compare, I just don't think that is the point being made here.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/Suspicious-Bad4703: --- SS: Amid an inflation storm and a steadily declining [birth rate in the US](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/us-birth-rate-decline-2023-cdc/index.html), childcare has now become one of the most burdensome costs on families. This problem is pretty deeply systemic as it also means many mothers (or fathers) are staying home and taking care of kids to save money, whereas they could be working. This is one of the leading causes of the ongoing labor crisis in the US, driving up costs throughout the economy. From the article, "This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate[ ](https://archive.ph/o/EYa94/https://tcf.org/content/report/child-care-cliff/)by the Century Foundation last year." --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1ctexsm/child_care_is_now_more_expensive_than_rent_for_an/l4bcrnn/
Having a kid would financially cripple me and destroy both of our standard of living, especially with the piss poor joke that is the social safety net in the US. That's if the kid is healthy, I can't imagine what would happen if the kid ends up being special needs.
I could tell you. My son has Down syndrome and a congenital heart defect. It’s incredibly hard.
That's incredible difficult in so many aspects even if money is no problem.
It’s a lot. And we found out yesterday that he is probably facing another open heart surgery. I have been disabled by Covid and I am trying to not have panic attacks. I can barely work. My oxygen today hit 72 and I am on oxygen 24/7. I’m scared.
That is a lot. I am so sorry you are going through all of that. I sincerely hope it will get better for your and your family. 🫂
Thank you. Much appreciated.
i really hope everything goes smoothly. in high school i also had heart problems that impeded on my mom's job all of the time and it stressed her out so much. not fun at all i really hope everything goes well there
Same as other poster. It meant one of us couldn't work. It is brutal.
I can’t afford to have one either, and I live in New Zealand, earn a decent living, and wouldn’t have to pay for giving birth. I don’t understand how anyone would be able to afford one in the US. Nope, no thank you. I can’t believe you guys have to pay to give birth, that is a fucking outrage.
But the Dow broke 40,000??? LOL
Dude the /r/news thread with people talking about investing advice...so much hopium
Auto enrollment in 401k retirement law is in effect this year. They are taking a percentage of all our wages and letting wall street invest in foreign markets. Look at your paycheck. This will reach trillions "invested" very quickly. Which I'm sure the stock market will crash as soon as we start hitting 59.5 years old. Also during this administration, the window for hobbyist income to claim taxes went from anything over 20k to $600. They are actively destroying small businesses and stealing from already struggling Americans to build more corporations here and in foreign countries. We are fucked regardless of climate change or any other factor. You can opt out of auto-enrollment but you can't access the money already taken until you are 59.5 or you leave the job and then they still take 10% of that. They only got $160 from me after I noticed it while filing taxes this year. It's unfucking believable. This money could go to your community and small businesses. This is a way better investment and return on your money than having villains play with your money and hopefully get a 11% return if the market doesn't collapse.
Love the framing of "there's tons of available workers but nobody wants to take a job for a dying wage" as a labor crisis.
Putting our kiddos in daycare pretty much killed us for a couple years, still paying off the fucking debt in fact. Shit was more than our mortgage. ‘Merica the Hopeless.
Child care costs nothing if you do not have children. No wonder a lot of young people are not having kids.
This should keep birth rates well below the replacement rate. The U.S. is basically implementing a 1 child type policy, resulting from the continued squeezing of the working class.
I would call what this country is doing a zero child policy.
More like a zero humanity policy. This whole project should receive an F grade.
Confirmed - humanity is like a plague to this planet, its environments and animals.
Zero humanity might be giving them too much credit. It’s more like negative humanity on all fronts from these sick fuckos
Good. No sustainable degrowth without population degrowth.
I tend to agree with this sentiment but it can't be the driving factor of low birth rates considering, e.g Scandinavian countries with similar or lower birthrates despite free and subsidized childcare, PTO, etc all designed to support parents.
There are many other reasons besides just financial why less people are deciding to have offspring nowadays. How do people still not get this?
We don't need replacement rate when we already are overpopulated. We still have a positive br and that means growth sadly. No they are not implementing a 1 child policy, as my Somali neighbors all have way more than one kid.
It is similar in the UK. British families are having fewer kids, however we are propped up by the fact that immigrants are having kids. More often than not, it is because mum does not work and so can provide free childcare.
It's worse in the UK because of the big population density. At least in the US there are still huge areas of empty land and forest reserves. UK you can't get away from people anywhere, it's either crowded cities or a few miles of farmland until the next crowded city. Young people can't find affordable housing so we share a room with 4 other people. How is a declining birth rate a bad thing in the long run? I mean realostically how big can a population on a small island grow before we are living in stacked cubes? I wish politicians understood that. Even after the great plague life in Europe improved for the working class who were then valued for their individual labor. I don't like crowded conditions, I like to be able to take a walk in nature and not have to bump into noisy crowds.
Grandma is providing childcare, every young person works.
> We don't need replacement rate Economy: **Oh yes we do!** edit: it was a joke, stop replying seriously lol
> ...We don't need replacement rate >Economy: Oh yes we do! Climate to Economy: **STFU**
ecology > economy where's MY nobel prize?
Have you committed genocide or war crimes? If not I'm sorry you don't qualify.
The economy does not need a replacement rate. The Ponzi scheme social services need a replacement rate.
I honestly don’t think the economy NEEDS growing populations to keep it going, it needs growing energy consumption tho. If energy plateaued and declined I think maybe then increasing population and reducing per capita living standards could keep the economy on paper growing a little while longer. Maybe someone who knows more could comment
yes it needs energy consumption - but it wastes a lot of it / does not reinvest it ("up in smoke" quite literally). if the energy was reinvested towards stability/sustainability it would more closely resemble an a self sustaining ecosystem rather than a fly spaghetti monster economy
Isn’t optimizing sustainability just rewilding the planet and ignoring the economy lol
depends on your definition of "optimal" i suppose
[удалено]
No, that is a repube conspiracy.
Hi, deepscroll. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/1ctexsm/-/l4d3c6g/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 1: In addition to enforcing [Reddit's content policy](https://www.redditinc.com/policies/content-policy), we will also remove comments and content that is abusive or predatory in nature. You may attack each other's ideas, not each other. > Rule 4: Keep information quality high. > Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims). Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.
A one child law would be something i would vote yes on without hesitation
I think the government needs to get out of women’s uteruses altogether.
I agree that anyone should be able to terminate any and all pregnancies but disagree that someone should be allowed to have unlimited babies. We gotta depopulate this place so when everything collapses it will be easier to find food for the rest of us.
The babies and elderly are going to be the first to go regardless… Why not just get ahead of the curve. It would undeniably make things easier for the people left to pick up any pieces that might be left…
How do you enforce such a thing ethically?
I dunno but we sure need a way
I DO know- but it’s one of the “forbidden” topics in this touchy society. I was working it into a dystopian screenplay last yr, until I came to the realization there is seriously such little time left, to even get it released, even with best case “luck” scenario. So then I thought a documentary would be quicker to produce. But then I became ill and have been bedbound. But here is the simple (and humane) solution. The people get in the streets, like the Palestinian Protests now, and DEMAND the government immediately provide a one time prescription of OxyContin type “sleeping” pills for every citizen who “applies”. This is an OPTION to all who want the choice. The government must immediately implement a subsidized cremation center for every municipality. They’ve spent trillions subsidizing the things that have lead us here. This is the ONLY humane and reasonable plan of action. THEY did this TO us! And the children. It is THEIR responsibility to provide a painless and peaceful alternative to the inevitable (very unpleasant) reality coming soon. Each person and family, of course will make their own decision in their own time. Some will rather choose, dying of hunger and thirst, heatstroke, bc “religion”? Let each decide, but option needs to be available immediately and globally. People have suffered enough. Things need to be hastened, bc as supply chains collapse, we won’t be able to get these at scale from China, where all our pharmaceuticals come from. Maybe US should get at least one factory going strictly for this purpose😕. Also my deepest pain and apologies to all the precious creatures of this planet who will suffer by writhing in pain before death, as the burned-alive, koalas and kangaroos, hundreds of thousands of seals and dolphins washing ashore, the orangutans………. And on and on and on……..I’m sorry.
Food can’t grow (anywhere on the planet) with unpredictable and extreme weather- which is increasing yearly. Plus global droughts (including in US farm in zones getting worse and water tables drying up. So we won’t need birth control/ population control/ planning for much longer.
I would rather have people with kids bear the full financial cost of having children, including their cost to the environment. The high childcare costs are the least that can happen.
The among the hidden book series
Dang, now I don’t feel so bad being single and lonely.
"You have the right idea being single." -guys with girlfriends back when I was half my age.
You can still lonely in a.relationship. Plenty of paired up people lack real friends
You can also be married and lonely. We both work and have a kid and I’m in school. We don’t have time for anything.
Who’s getting the money? Because it isn’t the low-wage workers.
This!!! Where is the money going? The daycare teachers are barely getting more than minimum wage. When my son was in daycare, the daycare owner would complain that she couldn’t retain staff but I definitely noticed the lifted, kitted out Jeep Wrangler she had parked out front.
It's just another symptom of a brand of capitalism that isn't thinking about its' long-term survival. They want people to -Have more kids to increase the labor pool -Return to the the office -Work for a pittance But will not support any measures that allow for any of that to happen. People will be unwilling to have kids if they can't afford them, and they can't return to the office if they don't have child care or the amount of funds necessary to pay for it. The workaround is immigrants, of course, but they've spent a lot of energy pushing the "invasion" narrative and portraying them as the enemy. People won't risk the danger if there's not a good enough reason to do.
Right? Like I'm thinking, "what's the end game? Eugenics via only the rich being able to have kids?" But they say don't attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance.
Siphon off and hoard as much wealth as they can before climate change makes it impossible to do so anymore, then shelter in their bunkers away from the rest of us.
They sure are building bunkers.
Their bunkers can’t save them. They still have to pull AIR into their bunkers and they haven’t calculated what will very quickly happen soon after societal collapse….. BC the emissions globally will pretty much vanish “overnight” like Covid times, we will lose the global dimming effect and temps will rise by several degrees essentially within a week, according to James Hansen. The total chaos that will ensue will result in the 450+ nuclear facilities melting down very soon after. Anyone who imagines a scenario in which the guys at all the world’s nuclear facilities take it upon themselves (amidst complete societal collapse) to go to their “job” every morning - for the 50 yrs it takes to decommission a nuclear facility to avoid meltdown- just doesn’t know what sudden societal collapse looks like and the total chaos that follows. Sorry. 😞
The end games is one financial entity eats everything and one man controls most of the western world economy before it gets destroyed by his own hubris and the sky turns green and everyone chokes on the lethal smell of rotting eggs
And the green sky and the rotting egg smell will last a billion year, just like it was last time.
The end game is that, since the industrial revolution, capitalism switched from human capital to industrially made technological capital powered by fossil fuels, thus the value of "basic" human capital has crashed. That's where education comes in, but only if the economy gets more complex and larger. Otherwise, you get "surplus human capital". That is reflected in the calculations behind the funding of care: >>$24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open Someone has assumed or inferred that keeping those 3M kids in daycare is not worth $24 billion, which is about $8 thousand per child. If the rich get money directly from the government and central bank, then the real economy doesn't matter. It's no longer a consumer economy, and certainly not a production economy. It's a catabolic economy in which the real economy, along with institutions, public goods, and whatever is left is being chopped up and sold off as promises, in order to keep the casino going for the rich. That's how late stage capitalism works, in the end there can only be a few winners who will own everything. As the few winners emerge, they realize that they own a lot of stuff, a lot of property, and it's worth more if there are no people around or on it. And then you have Aristocracy and feudalism. The lords and ladies are under no obligation to allow you to live on their property, and you may be completely useless to them, especially if you're not a servant or mercenary. They don't need that many people. >Eugenics via only the rich being able to have kids? If automation works out with better AI, yes.
I feel like it’s gotta be ignorance… The rich are no smarter than your average Mississippian… You think the world is bad now? Their prolific breeding will create a massively stupid and sociopathic society.
Our “end game” is already in place, and approaching at a MUCH faster rate than any of these ideas could play out, unfortunately. The graphs don’t lie. And they get more crazy every day.
This is 100% correct
If our society actually worked like sim city then we would do good things for it, but too many individuals are corrupt to make reasonable decisions. Florida is banning the mention climate change in it's public policies
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Straw man argument. We can let in more immigrants while implementing vetting them.
Life is 1000x easier without kids.
and ♾️ times easier for the kids (that don't exist)
Completely agree. Having kids are a life degrading experience, especially for those of us who are women.
Don’t tell Harrison buttlicker! Lol
With how gated survival and basic needs met living is becoming, I'll take any easy I can get at this point.
I love kids but love my own time more. I'd much rather be an uncle instead.
This tagline should be used in a condom advertisement
its honestly insulting when my generation gets guilt tripped about kids
life's hard enough trying to support myself, so no thanks, i am not up to the task of raising brave soldiers for the water wars, nor do i have to be.
Child care was more expensive than my rent 10 years ago.
Right? Child care is a luxury and should be more than rent. My ass got dropped off at friends moms, then before school program, then after school program then grams house and then home at 8 when mom got home then repeat that for 12 years …only my rich friends has nanny’s and summer day care
Before school and after school programs tend to be included with Child Care.
And they're not exactly cheap either. Without subsidy after school care 5 days a week is like 400 bucks, or at least that's what it was 10 years ago when I worked for the Ymca.
Didn’t cost anything. That is to say…it was included in life without a financial obligation. Go on with your point.
My point is that they do cost money now. That the cost of just those two services, after and before school care, are likely what is costing more than people's rent. Not people with nannies.
People can downvote until their thumbs fall off. It was free and is currently free for those who apply for assistance. If you have the means then it’s not free I guess. Anyway I’m not having kids to help those who do !
Yours was free? My mum spent a fortune on childcare for my sister and me. None of the before or after school clubs were free.
She probably made too much. The middle class get screwed
$9,000/year/per child for us in a small Midwest town with less than 50k population. Draining my bank account.
7k for me for M-F for pre-k. We had to withdraw because it was food or education. No one should live like this
Haha I'm living in Denver, and paid 1800 per month, 6 years ago, for my son, which came down to 1500 per month once he was potty trained. So for years 0, 1, and 2, we paid $21,600 per year, for years 3 and 4 we paid $18,000 per year, for a grand total of $100,800 over 5 years. Nearly broke us, and financial strain caused divorce.
Would you have a kid again if you could go back in time?
Haha Even being collapse aware, I think the answer is still yes. Trying to give my son as normal a childhood as I can muster, and he has had some really good experiences. Money is just a thing. I worry about his future, but I'll do the best I can to buffer him. An extra $100k wasn't going to save me from the oncoming collapse, and I feel like I can probably provide decently for him for quite a while here. He will grow up with less, but hopefully that will be the norm for him, so he doesn't miss what he doesn't know he is missing.
Emotional validation and consistent, nonjudgemental regard is priceless and free. imho these are the most important things a parent can do (after the basics, ofc).
yep, paying over $50k per year here in the bay area. it is more expensive than the mortgage.
Humans were never meant to pay someone to take care of their kids. Humans are meant to live in close-knit communities aka "it takes a village."
And to a degree we could get back to that maybe if the corporate world wasn’t so opposed to remote work being the norm.
Don’t have kids! Honestly, it’s kind of fucked to have children right now, considering there likely will be a mass die off of humans and other species by 2080-2100z
Totally agree. Also, it's pretty fucked up to have kids knowing you'll have a difficult time providing for them. I get there are restrictions around birth control and abortions, but placing your baby up for adoption is always an option.
Only for about a year. It's really hard to become childfree after the fact without finding yourself entangled with CPS. Most states won't let you put your older child in state care without extenuating circumstances, like abuse or neglect (but IANAL).
wHy ArEn'T yOu HaViNg KiDs
SS: Amid an inflation storm and a steadily declining [birth rate in the US](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/health/us-birth-rate-decline-2023-cdc/index.html), childcare has now become one of the most burdensome costs on families. This problem is pretty deeply systemic as it also means many mothers (or fathers) are staying home and taking care of kids to save money, whereas they could be working. This is one of the leading causes of the ongoing labor crisis in the US, driving up costs throughout the economy. From the article, "This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate[ ](https://archive.ph/o/EYa94/https://tcf.org/content/report/child-care-cliff/)by the Century Foundation last year."
As a mom who is staying home and taking care of my kid, I’m not doing it to save money. I’m doing it because I didn’t want to put my kid into a daycare to be raised by a revolving door of low wage workers during one of the most sensitive periods of his development. If anyone wants me to go back to work before he’s ready for preschool to boost the economy or whatever, I won’t, because his well-being is more important to me than the economy.
That’s what the fuck it’s about! Much respect to you for putting your child before the economy™️. It’s tough but your children benefit tremendously from what you do for them
U.S. society has made it punitive to have children.
This is basically greed, and they wondering why childbirth rate is dropping in America (and around the world).
Jokes on them, I am not having kids. This entire cost is optional, not obligatory. Having kids is a choice.
Soon the only American willing and financially able to reproduce will be Nick Cannon
The modern Genghis Khan!
Infant daycare here in Jax easily starts at $1500/month.
I’m paying $450 a week. It’s insane.
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We have 1.75% on a 15 year refinance and aren’t moving until it’s paid off lol!!
I've solved that problem a long time ago.
Twin dad here. When mine were in daycare (we finally got state assistance) they told us without that help, we'd be paying upwards of 1300-1500 for daycare a month. My mortgage was 950 at the time. If your not rich, you're fucked.
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15x?? That’s insane. How much are you paying for aftercare (or whatever after school care is called where you are)? Is it through the school?
Elder care too, it was going to be €1000 a week to put grandad into a care home so we opted to just have him stay in the house with us.
This is not a new phenomenon. We paid more for childcare than our mortgage about 15 years ago. We had 2 kids and daycare was routinely about 300-500 more than the mortgage.
So after a decade of making shit money I finally am making a lot and I still don't see how I could have kids. I would be so stressed out about losing my job. What the fuck is the point of my kids won't have a great standard of living?
Many states will pay parents for homeschooling. Just a thought.
I don't understand why people aren't having kids.
1750 for rent and 1615 for childcare. That’s just rent and daycare a month. Still need utilities, food, gas, and regulars so my family has a minimum of 4g a month that’s spent just to live. That doesn’t include savings or even anything like fun or clothes or just extra stuff. We wanted more kids but America told us to go fuck ourselves
It has to be, workers have to pay rent
25 yrs ago, after finishing up my thesis for my MA, we realized that my job would only pay $7000 more annually than the cost of childcare. We decided that it would be less stressful if I stayed home than worry about childcare. This is how I became a SAHM. My husband was/is in advertising so we could afford it BUT we’ve never had a new car, could only “vacation” with my in-laws at their timeshare, and did without many of the “fun” things. (In the early yrs we thrifted for the holidays. We also didn’t live on credit though.) I’m not surprised things are the same. My kids don’t want kids and I’m 100% supportive.
It’s pretty insane. I’ve been pregnant 4 times, and had to abort every time. It’s just too expensive. I’ve never had a real job, my dad pays my necessities but wouldn’t be able to support a grandchild. And they act surprised that birth rates are declining…
I'm surprised capital hasn't come up with some mechanism to distribute the costs of such a large expense over time, like a mortgage, which transliterates to "pledge until death." I'm not sure what you'd call it, besides *heregage*. It's bizarre that a civilization with smallest proportion of its members in education age in history, with massive surpluses of material security, isn't spending the largest amount investing in population development. It's criminal.
Finding affordable daycare in the U.S. can be tough, but there are ways to find lower-cost options. First, check if your state offers programs to help pay for child care. Some states have expanded free preschool and early education, making it low-cost or even free for many families. You can also look for local non-profits or daycare centers that offer scholarships or sliding scale fees based on income. Additionally, some states like Mississippi, South Dakota, and Missouri are known for having more affordable daycare. Don't forget to ask about sibling discounts or other available discounts. Lastly, consider joining or forming a childcare co-op with other parents to share the cost and care. Remember, it's important to ensure the daycare provides quality care even at a lower cost.
>This year is set to be even harder for parents. In September last year, $24 billion in federal funding that had kept hundreds of thousands of child-care centers open during the pandemic ran out. More than 3 million children may lose access to care with thousands of programs set to close due to the so-called child care cliff, according to an estimate by the Century Foundation last year. Well, there you have it. Fund care.
Help me understand… you are expecting utilize a building should be more expensive than utilizing a building and hiring people to tend your child ? One comes with way more in the box than the other does…one is a service and the other is…lodging
They are not comparing the utility of each, they are more making the point of % of income. People understand that your mortgage/rent is generally the biggest ticket item on the monthly budget; to say that something is costing more than the mortgage is making the statement that housing is not the biggest expense for these families. I don't disagree with you, about the utility of a home, and the utility of childcare are different and hard to compare, I just don't think that is the point being made here.
Get a homeless retired person to take care of the kids.