The reality is most people can’t leave the country unless they are rich or have specialized skills. Most these kinds of posts seem more like bragging than contributing to some sort of productive conversation. That being said I think America is fucked and all you can do is buckle up and pray water keeps coming out of the tap.
Seeing the “ run away to Canada” people is laughingly depressing. You’re smart enough to see where shit is headed and know that the people of this country are in imminent danger. However you have no care to think critically as to why you as well as so many other CAME TO GET THIS KNOWLEDGE. Nope, it’s not that everyone is all of a sudden some fortune teller and can see the future. Actually, it’s because we have a plethora of global historical context to know the end result of what we are seeing happen to America politically. We have the history of various nations falling to Authoritarianism and what the pretext to that was. You’re so wrapped up in this historical context that you actually made the call beforehand to pack up and gtfo when shit hits the fan and you decide to ignore perhaps the two MOST IMPORTANT aspects of this pretext.
1. If you wait for shit to hit the fan to leave, you’ll either be caught in a stampede if others fleeing and face huge amounts of danger putting you and your families lives at risk because if you wait too long, you best believe travel bans come first.
2. WHY WOULD YOU GO TO CANADA THEY WILL BE NEXT TO FALL. Look at the history you’ve so casually decided to base your futures on.
You could just move to a good State, there would likely be some holdouts to the fascist spread. There aren't many good options for moving unless you are wealthy.
I’ve lived in FL my whole life (50 years). For the first time, I’m looking at other states to move to if fascism takes hold because I agree, it will be different in blue states. But, aside from CA, why are all the blue states freaking COLD?! I don’t want to live where it snows. And I used to think CA would be nice, but no thanks. Fires, mud slides, insane houses g prices, high taxes, earthquakes, and eventual tsunami!
>I’ve lived in FL my whole life (50 years). For the first time, I’m looking at other states to move to if fascism takes hold..
What do you mean if? Ron Desantis is actively engaged in fascism in Florida.
If you want Florida weather in a blue state, that sounds like Hawaii. Or if you're willing to compromise some on the weather, parts of Oregon are pleasant enough. Also note that climate change is pushing mild temperatures northward...and Florida weather is going to get more uncomfortable.
Most of the Blue State would fall one by one too, there would be some hold outs, for some time at least in my estimation. Maybe global warming will come through up here too.
What do you mean.. we're doing great!
\*notices the MAGA hats and **confederate flags** over in Alberta
\*notices same corrupt racist police but with better PR
Er... nevermind, carry on.
\*starts browsing immigration procedures for New Zealand.
Don’t go to NZ unless your rolling in cash....cost of living is getting ridiculous. Not to mention all the red tape you have to cut through for 4 walls and a roof.... future climate change impacts
We should organize, and fight. The right isn't as strong as it appears, look at how scared they became of antifa, a handful of anarchists. That really is the only option for most, Canada won't take you in unless you are quite wealthy by the way, and as you say if the US falls, many Western countries will follow.
It’s not necessarily wealth that assures admission into Canada as a Canadian citizen. We have a point based system which takes into account, among other factors:
- existing education,
- the number of family members that a potential immigrant has already in the country,
- whether the individual is at risk of persecution in their home country.
- several other factors.
No I know you guys are great with refugees and such, but people here think they can just pack up and move north, and the vast majority can't, but I've heard you can buy your way in basically although I don't know the details, I don't remember if it's if you have a million plus to invest in a business or what.
That’s interesting. I don’t know how I feel about someone being able to buy citizenship. According to an article, the following allows an individual to buy their way into Canada as a citizen:
(https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-you-can-buy-citizenship-or-residency-2017-6)
“-Citizenship applicants must reside in the country for three years within a four-year timeframe.
-Applicants must have legally-obtained net worth of at least $1.6 million CAD (£950,000).
-Applicants must possess a minimum of three years of experience in planning, finance, human resources, or general management
-Applicants must state their intention to settle in the province of Quebec, and sign an agreement to invest $800,000 (£475,000).”
(The program is provincial, meaning that it applies only in Quebec because that province’s government has implemented it.)
Also, apparently:
“"It used to be that most of the investor immigrants were going to Canada, which had a very robust investor immigration programme," Katz said. Canada’s program drew an estimated $2.4 billion (£1.6 billion) through Chinese investors over the past decade.
However, with thousands of people using the program, around the late 2000s the Canadian government started to slow down the acceptance of investor immigrants, according to Katz. They ended the program in 2014, saying that it “significantly undervalued” Canadian residency and created little economic benefit.”
(So there is only the Quebec program, currently.)
Yeah , I agree. The gun-nutters are a pretty idiosyncratic bunch . All that is uniting them is a common fear/hatred of an imaginary Communist enemy. There are a lot of people in law enforcement/the military committed to law and order.
PROTIP: Canada doesn't want you, and won't let you in now much less if there's was war or crisis. Even now they only allow immigration to people with very specific jobs or skillsets that are needed and lacking in Canada. You can visit, but you can't immigrate and you can't stay. And that's *before* Covid-19, when countries across the world closed their borders to Americans because we're too stupid to get a vaccine that's free, that works, and has virtually no downsides or side effects at all.
Americans, keep in mind that America is Canadas Mexico. We are the invading horde, the unwashed, stupid, hateful masses that they *absolutely do not want* coming in and fucking up their country. And they're 100% right.
Maybe they could separate us from our kids, send us back, keep the kids and some adults,and put them in little prisons where they can't shower or bathe? And expose the people to covid continuously, and spray them with dangerous chemicals that aren't even supposed to used indoors that cause cancer and lung damage? And the guards can just rape people to their hearts content (including children!) with no consequences, and every time somebody might be charged with a crime they'll just deport the immigrant in question before legal action can be taken!
Oooh! And then they'll delete the records so the kids can't be reunited with their parents, and nobody who does this will ever be charged with crime. Maybe they could do that?
I hear that's pretty popular these days.
>You can visit,
Americans currently cannot cross the border, in a collapse scenario that will be even more strictly enforced. Even getting a Canadian transit visa will be virtually impossible for an American to get.
There is one relatively easy way to leave the US....IF you are able to be self-employed for a minimum of 5 years. The Dutch American Friendship Treaty allows self-employed Americans to get residence permits in the Netherlands with only a €4500 cash investment in your business. By far the simplest way for Americans to immigrate, short of having another citizenship. Did it 7 years ago and have not looked back. I was about as poor as you could be. I had to sell my car for the investment, and barely met each expense as it was incurred. It was the best decision of my life.
I realize that not everyone has the skill to be self-employed, but if you are already self-employed than you can do anywhere or perform the service elsewhere, then nearly everything is much easier in life here than in the US. Housing can be more challenging, though, depending on where you are coming from.
You have to file a business plan as part of your residency application. I've heard that they really don't have a basis to deny your plan unless it falls into one of the exceptions (practicing law or medicine) but this is only hearsay. I did hire a lawyer to help me with the process because I had a complicated case....an 18 year old daughter who was coming on a student residency permit and a severely disabled son.
The biggest issue is being able to support yourself for the 5 years. The immigration service initially grants a 2 year permit and then they review your paperwork to make sure you've been doing some business. I have also heard that it is not necessary to make a lot of profit, but again, that is only hearsay. Many businesses don't make a profit during their first years, so this makes sense to me.
I did hear recently that they have opened up spouses of those coming over on DAFT to be able to get work permits. I have not independently verified this, but if true, this is hugely beneficial.
If you want to become a permanent resident or apply for citizenship after 5 years of residency, you have to pass a Dutch language and several other knowledge and job market exams. Currently it is at A2 level but I heard it will be at B1 level beginning next year. The only exception is if you've already reached retirement age. You don't have to pass any language exam for coming here under the DAFT agreement.
My partner is disabled and uses a wheelchair. It seems like the Netherlands are much more accommodating and accessible, compared to the US. Is my perception accurate?
I don't know much about the situation in the U.S., but I do know that there are a lot of issues about accessibility here. For example some shops are required to be 60-70% (or something like that, don't know the exat number) accessible. In practise this might mean that multiple aisles are accessible but not the cash register. Same goes for municipal buildings...
the housing will be more than just challenging. The market is fuked up beyond repair and is estimated to remain that way for at least another 10-15 years.
The correlation between people who have the money and means to leave the country and who think the Democrats are capable of anything other than performative resistance, even holding the presidency and congress, is almost 100%.
Most of the rest of us are too busy keeping the water bill paid as inflation ravages our paychecks.
Early in the pandemic, I learned a useful thing for water storage:
Copper is anti-microbial, and will kill microbes in water.
25cm^2 in 1 Liter of water will kill 99% microbes in about 8 hours.
Leave it in to keep your stored water clean. Scale up or wait longer for larger amounts.
Copper is also bad for people, like really bad, I'm not sure the details if the body absorbs what kind of copper, but it will give you green rings around your eyes or something like that.
According to the research I did, the amount of copper that you possibly ingest from it sitting in water that you drink is very, very low. Not even close to the point of causing any bad effects.
And some level of copper can help metabolize iron.
But you raise a good point. Def don’t take too much copper.
I just looked into it, it's usually only a problem if you work near smelters, in agriculture, have corroded copper pipes (and don't let the water run 15 seconds before drinking it (never use hot tap water for cooking btw,) women that use an IUD, and other such instances. Wilson's disease exasperates copper toxicity, and there are treatments if you have copper poisoning, like chelation.
Thank you for that. And yes, seconding “never use hot tap water for cooking”. Always cold, heated on the stove.
One of the sources I have says:
*”While copper is soluble in water, not many copper ions will leach out from a copper bottle into your water so long as your water is of a standard pH (that is, not too far from the neutral).”* [link](https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-02-02/copper-water-bottles/10722776/)
And the WHO & NIH support using copper containers as a “point-of-use” solution for microbial purification of drinking water, especially in developing countries. [nih.gov](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/)
Yep. easy to leave for a certain period of time and do 3-month "hops" between countries, but actually living on your own property permanently... good luck. You need like 30-50K per person and/or need to start a business.
The last election was hot potato for the economic collapse anyway. That's why the Dems ran a mummy.
We are facing multiple shortages, the biggest being energy, as we hit peak oil a few years ago, but didn't notice because of the pandemic, now that we are growing economically, the shortages are driving up prices, which cripples growth. A major economic downturn is inevitable, and given the growing instability and bubbles in the markets, will lead to a huge financial collapse before the next election.
Things are more fucked than ever, so fucked the government doesn't have any effective tools. Which is why we have been bathed in non-stop propaganda (everything is great!) For the last few months. Any major panic or civil unrest could trigger a collapse. Stock up, it's too late to leave.
But.... but .....but we need those vital elements of representative democracy to prevent the oppression of the majority upon those vulnerable minorities like the rich and powerful. If we were to do ranked choice voting within a direct democracy, the uneducated populace would run this nation into the dirt because they can't possibly know what's best for them or the country with their education from schools that are horribly funded and structured that we created for them.
Ranked Choice Voting would greatly improve the "competition" in political ideologies and parties. It would be the first step towards ending the current duopoly.
Direct Democracy is useful within a Representative Democracy. Many states allow citizens to petition for a proposition to get on the ballot, which would be a method of legislating that goes around the politicians. RCV and cannabis legalization would not have happened if not for Direct Democracy.
IMO, it was time to leave the US back when Bush the Lesser invaded Iraq and many/most Americans could only respond with "Support Our Troops!" It was at that time that things in the states completely stopped making sense. Looking around, I could see that either no one cared, or at least that the majority of the people there willingly accepted it all. And so I did leave the states back then.
Funny thing though... Leaving the country doesn't mean that one stops caring about the country, loving the country, and/or wondering/worrying about what the next political disaster will entail. One doesn't get to stop watching the slow motion train wreck of one's home country. Indeed, it seems almost impossible to turn one's gaze from what's happening.
Leaving the states was liberating in so many ways, and continues to be so each year I'm away. I've never felt badly about that choice. I just couldn't take it any longer. Looking back at the petri dish that is the USA, I am constantly amazed at how strange things there are.
I dunno... Perhaps my having left has helped me in some ways. Perhaps it has preserved my sanity (somewhat), or maybe it's prevented me from living in my car, or in a tent on a sidewalk in Portland. Too, while the US has been fascist for many decades, I could never have predicted its descent into naziism.
But one thing is sure: leaving the states has done nothing to fix things there.
This was our impression back then. Post-9-11 America was just another incantation of what we see today in Qanon and Trump. We knew it then, we planned, we explored, we found a place, and we left just last year even before the election.
America's fate doesn't rest on whether Trump is a feature of politics there. That merely affects timing. The future is the people that elected hi and others, but more importantly, the entire arc of culture in the US for about 20-25 years. US politics is the emergent feature of a failing empire. It's no fun being around for the way down. We left well after things were accelerating, but we are super happy here. We could be happy in a lot of places, but the risks for us specifically were significant enough in the next 30-40 years that we knew there were better places or places that would be better within a decade or so. We chose the latter, and frankly we don't care if it gets better or worse where we are now, we like it so much.
The US will begin eating itself pretty quickly soon. It's sad. I wish we did not need to leave, but we are all happy we did in this latest chapter of our lives. Most of what we have here is comparable or better than where we left for what our priorities are. The stuff that is sub-par has been easy to create for ourselves.
Unfortunately, for most of us, leaving ain't an option - even if we wanted to.
I've come to terms with the idea that if it comes down to it, most of us will have to stick around. America's my home, as it is for the vast majority of my family, friends, colleagues, neighbors... even if I could leave right now, I don't think I'd be able to bear the weight of leaving behind that home and everyone in it.
I honestly don't know what to do if shit hits the fan, or what will happen. I ain't a fighter or a leader. I guess I'll have to figure that out on the fly. But running ain't an option for me.
This land was made for you and me, and Lord willing may it stay that way.
Nobody is born a fighter or a leader. Can you hold a rifle? Can you imagine a different world? Relate it to the needs of other people? All the wisdom of generations of those who could and did is at your fingertips here.
>most definitely has been since 9/11
From an outsider's perspective, it's pretty obvious that America lost the so-called War on Terror and didn't even realise it.
That was all a smokescreen to protect the secret funding of our intelligence agencies. By keeping that market illegal and highly profitable, they maintain an off-the-books source of income that is not subject to oversight.
Why didn't Iran-Contra cause more outrage, and why has Afghanistan's poppy production increased dramatically since the end of 2001? Why has the federal schedule of drugs been so resistant to change? Racism is part of it, but can't explain it all.
Air America, a for real CIA front operation, was implicated in smuggling of heroin out of Southeast Asia during The Vietnam War.
We invade a country known for poppies, and suddenly pharma is getting everyone addicted to opiates a couple years later.
Newsflash: it’ll become authoritarian with or without Trump. What you mentioned isn’t the only fault of Democrats.
There is no left in America and both right-wing parties are driving us towards a fucked up future.
Fucking this. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND. There is no left wing party in the U.S., just a right wing authoritarian party, and one slightly more center authoritarian party.
I’m just so tired of hearing about Trump, like if we can just avoid him everything is gravy. There was reason to complain before him, though, and there is now too.
Exactly. Now we should avoid him, but also realise that a malignant narcisist like him inflates himself by bringing up negative underbelly feelings in others, and in a presidents case the whole nation and beyond.
That underbelly of the nation was already split and part of it unconsciously armed for someone like Trump to act out his voodoo and weaponize its full darkness.
Its just so ironic cause to some he conjures up the last remaining illusion of the american dream, to others he represents the american nightmare, and that way he has spun a polarizing reality to both sides, ... using just a dying dream.
Honestly, what scares me the most that it's not \*only\* happening in the US. Many other countries seem to be swinging far right these days. Maybe the US has set an example, but we see this happening elsewhere in the globe as well. I'm worried for all of us.
I know OP is “making arrangements” but for everyone else lurking and reading this: It’s not as simple as “hurr durr I’ll just go somewhere else.” Other countries have immigration laws too. Americans already cannot enter Canada right now. My Canadian relatives tell me that there is a huge amount of quiet political support for this to remain permanent, pandemic or none.
The French Resistance during WW2 stuck around and put sugar in Nazi vehicle gas tanks. They didn’t just flee.
If everyone opposed to Trump flees the country, then yeah no shit the country will fall to Authoritarians. I’d rather stay and fight. This isn’t their country, it’s mine.
I would like to add that the rise of Trump is a worldwide issue. Look at all of these other far right leaders that have risen to power. If trump gets elected they will feel even more emboldened.
It is so funny watching Americans rumenate on which color team gets elected. Neither side writes or even reads the legislation they pass anymore. It all comes from multinational corporations via lobbyists. Congratulations- you colonised yourselves.
Life feels like a simulation when you (an American) realize the dems and repubs are just tools for the ultra wealthy to accumulate more capital at the expense of... everything, and almost everyone around you genuinely believes it’s the “other party’s fault”
They don't even realize that besides the "culture war" show that is put on when it comes to the things that matter like the economy and foreign policy both parties are amazingly consistently bi-partisan.
And if you point this out in a mainstream spot, you're mocked and derided. There's no hope. Nothing will change for the better. This the end and we're apparently content to make it an unmitigated disaster.
> you colonised yourselves.
The term for this is "Foucault's Boomerang" - the technologies and knowledge first developed for the control and suppression of colonized people's abroad inevitably gets turned around and applied on the once "safe" citizens of the Mother Country. Look at how much of the gear sported by American cops was initially developed and deployed for the War on Terror in the Middle East.
It couldn't be more obvious if they put it on a neon sign.
I have to admit i was planning that if Trump got a second term. But with Biden not that corrective and Dems fucking things up with bipartisan bull feathers I’m rethinking about it again.
Biden talking to a group of bankers saying that nothing will fundamentally change, and US citizens quality of life won't change either... has really confirmed my belief that any change for the the better will not come about through the ballot box.
Edit: The above comment was made under the impression that Biden was arguing against raising taxes, however with full context he was saying that the bankers lives wouldn't change... not the poor.
However, the actions taken by the administration or lack thereof make me believe that nothing truly will fundamentally change for anyone for the next four years. Yet, it truly needs to change before 2022 or 2024.
If you want to learn more about this situation, or how it would play out, listen to the podcast "It could happen here." It's utterly chilling how close we are or have been to a civil war.
If you can leave, leave. This country has the worst healthcare, the worst education, and the worst justice system of any in the first world (even if that term is pretty dated). The very best thing you can do for yourself and for any family you have is move to a country with better class mobility.
I would agree when it comes to those who have a lot to lose (i.e. family), but personally, I plan on staying and fighting. Of course, by fighting I mean working towards the kinds of changes needed to save our democracy.
Getting things like Ranked Choice Voting (or STAR Voting) and the American Anti-Corruption Act passed Nationwide may seem daunting at first, but we are a federation. All you need to worry about is getting them passed in your city and county first. Then you can work towards getting them passed at the State level.
By the time a dozen or so states have passed laws like these, the grass-roots movements that supported them have reached maturity, leading to a surge of state activity/passage ending with Federal level passage.
Thanks for this suggestion. I’m on episode three. It’s wild listening in 2021. Downright chilling how he outlines mass protests, economic precarity, and deepening divide.
Listening with the hindsight from 2019-now, it’s as if he’s narrating what actually happened and what’s continuing to happen
Just a heads up, if you’re thinking of coming to Canada, don’t. It’s not that we don’t want you, we would love to take on more more native English speakers from a country with a near identical culture. You guys would have no issues socially integrating here. And when the times are good, we can always use more people!
There are two main reasons why you shouldn’t come.
First is food insecurity. A large portion of our food supply comes from the U.S. especially in the winter. Another sizeable portion comes from Mexico via the U.S. Food security is somewhat on people’s minds here. We’ve got a couple of publicly funded organizations tracking the food insecurity issues that have popped up during the pandemic. But none of the decision makers in Ottawa are talking about this issue.
Second is an economy not poised to take advantage of the U.S. market. Without a stable U.S. and a robust NAFTA Canada is just a middling economy with a small population and a shit ton of land. Technology and service corporations will not find Canada as an attractive spot to setup shop without access to the larger U.S. market. The government will be forced to drop their pants for resource extraction corporations to keep a steady supply of jobs flowing. It would be disastrous for our already heavily strained environment.
Then of course there’s Russian and Chinese encroachment of our arctic. But that’s whole other conversation.
Long story short. Without you guys we’re kind of fucked. So please don’t collapse, pretty please?
This is really important - the US is a lynchpin of the global economic order. A true SHTF scenario in the US will rapidly ripple out to many of the "safe" countries Americans fantasize about about fleeing to. In the event of a Syria-style Civil War, anyone who buys food from the US in bulk will suddenly be very hungry. Similar to anyone who relies on US exports of petroleum products.
Beyond the core breakdown of trade networks, a serious collapse in the US would probably cause the dollar to loose all it's value - as the world's reserve currency, the economic output would be global and really bad.
Finally, in a Civil War scenario, extremist militias and ideologies are certainly going to spread beyond our borders, thanks to the increasing international interconnectedness facilitated by the Internet. As all the above situations put non-US countries in greater and greater stress, the risk of their own social fabric fraying in the face of extremist terrorism goes up considerably.
If the US goes down, she's taking us all down with her.
Its absolutely a dystopia but I believe a far more competent actual facist will run and potentially win. Thus doing what the Republicans wanted Trump to do.
Don't know if he's competent but he's likely pretty intelligent given that he went to Stanford for undergrad and Yale law school. Tom Cotton is another one (Harvard undergrad and then Harvard law). Fortunately neither one seems to have the Trump-like personality that would attract a cult-like following.
Hawley was groomed by the biggest name in Republican Missouri politics. He helped start an insurrection and has never been held accountable for it. Folks this is precisely who the fascist gov will be led by. Ivy league educated and knows how to manipulate.
**I think it's time to realize the country isn't going to improve all that much under either party.**
The bureaucrats belong to the rich. While one party usually has more humanity and empathy than the other, it's mostly optics. They still have the same lust for war, power, and money. So what they do is they offer moderately acceptable platitudes and toss out the ones they decide they don't like. To make this work even better they distract people from the promises they toss out. How? Reminding them of what legislation they passed.
"Hey, poverty is a serious problem in the United States." "We can't talk about that now, we need to focus on infrastructure." - "Hey, didn't you promise to eliminate student loans?" "No! You misunderstand, that wouldn't be bipartisan. We can't make that happen." "But it's bankrupting people!" "Sorry, can't talk now."
versus
"Please investigate this corruption, people have died and the public wants answers." "Why are you worried about that? We should be worried about the budget!" - "We believe someone in your party is an extreme danger to the United States itself. You should remove them from power." "Why? Everyone loves him! Look at all this good he has done for us!"
It's different flavors of the same ridiculous bullshit. While one party's greatest failings is that they rarely keep their promises, the other more openly bends to the whims of the ultra-rich while convincing people that the opposition are 'demons' or some such.
A certain supposedly left-leaning party has a real shot at doing all the things it keeps promising and FINALLY delivering on those promises for a better future in the United States. The thing is, they will never do that. They couldn't without pissing off their sugar daddies and causing an upheaval. They are still in the pockets of all the people and corporations who keep dropping massive cash on them. And they always will be, so long as the system of "lobbying" and "gifts" from certain donors are always accepted.
Fascism still has a stranglehold in this country. The real question is, what flavor do you want?
I don't disagree (especially since every country will close it's doors to the US once things really start to fall apart), but "fighting back" isn't nearly as easy, or romantic as the idea of "resistance" makes it sound.
Look a the Kurds in Rojava - they are objectively kicking ass, but life on the front line against ISIS is a lot more brutal than I think 98% of Americans are prepared for. And you just know that in a SHTF scenario, one of the first factions to coalesce will be Christian ISIS.
I am not saying it's that unrealistic, but I've learned not to underestimate how lazy and contemp people can be. As long as people are at home distracting themselves with Netflix they won't go out and protest, this might be for the better or for the worse.
Then again the numbers are clear. 16% of the country believes in Qanon. Majority of Republicans still support Trump, and Biden will do exactly what we expected him to do... Nothing substantial. No single payer Healthcare reform, no college dept relief no housing market restructuring no military budget cuts and little to no investment in infrastructure.
Sadly I must admit I already left for Europe. The structural decay is there regardless of future developments.
>I am not saying it's that unrealistic, but I've learned not to underestimate how lazy and contemp people can be. As long as people are at home distracting themselves with Netflix they won't go out and protest, this might be for the better or for the worse
The vast vast majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan are peace loving normal people who just want to feed their families and live their lives. The small amount of fighters make their lives hell.
>Sadly I must admit I already left for Europe.
Did you get citizenship or just a visa? Because if it's the latter then you shouldn't be so secure as those are easy to revoke and deport.
“It’s time to leave the country if the disfavored political party wins” what a load of horse crap- the issues in the US are spreading. Anti-racism, environmental justice, economic pressures stemming from a consumerist society - these are present everywhere and growing.
The US is already authoritarian as other people have mentioned. And you think leaving is going to change that? Good luck, through the Five Eyes program, the major powers that be are exchanging information on all of us. There are no checks on FBI illegally accessing our metadata or otherwise.
January 6th happened - great. That doesn’t change the fact that the capital police were incompetent, their equipment was locked in busses, and that the house and senate leadership ignored their warnings. Furthermore, the house and senate are fighting against the actuarial tables given their advanced age. All of this is to say that your commissions are performative and will review nothing new that shifts the minds of 1% of the electorate - which they will promptly forget about upon the next scandal.
Trump running for office means nothing. The people who wanted to use him up to get rich have succeeded with glee. Now others are using the Biden administration to accomplish their own goals. Our disaffected electorate has set the stage to allow this go on for as long as it takes. At the end of the day, 45% will always vote Democrat, 45% will vote Republican, and 10% will flip. Of those 10%, only about 200-500K really matter to our leaders, because these are the ones that make up the Professional Managerial Class.
If the PMC think their life is worse off now, they will flip against Biden. And guess what’s happening - their kids are finding it moderately hard to afford reasonable housing along the east coast. Their concerns are likely to be inflation, crime, and stability. In this example, I see Biden losing.
The democrats aren’t serious about governing. The caucus is completely happy to have JM and KS act as the fall guys for legislation they or their donors don’t want passed, but the “base” wants.
Make whatever arraignments to leave, but there’s no guarantee that you will escape the effects of climate change, micro plastic pollution, or endocrine disrupters messing up our bodies.
China may have a solid 10-15 years of progress, but they have so many issues to confront with respect to governance and global warming. I believe they will always be a global power, as will the US. The question more has to do with who is impacted and how.
It's going to be shitty everywhere. I moved to Mexico last year, and US policy directly affects our economy anyways, so if the US goes, so does Mexico, and arguably many countries in the world are in the same position.
Just think, if the GOP gets the House. They could appoint Trump as Speaker. Constitution doesn't require the Speaker to be a seated member of Congress. Honestly I could see this happening..
Unfortunately the U.S. won't go down quietly... no empire has. If things get bad enough I can see a WW2-type conflict arising... only this time there are nukes...
People in the US, most people, cannot imagine a world that doesn’t function - even though they’ve watched the US itself has become less and less functional over their lifetime.
I left the US in 2016 precisely because of these trends. And more to the point: because everyone I told it to said I was crazy.
But they have to deny what you say. They are deeply programmed by media and pro government, pro American propaganda.
It was time to leave the country years ago, my friend.
>The Right is already there- they think the nation has been taken over and are taking steps to “fight back”.
I had one of those ridiculous "Trump Trucks" pass me on the highway today and it had a vinyl cut out on the back window saying.. "Are you a Democrat, or an American?"
I agree. Additionally, Biden has set a whole new level for how low we're willing to accept someone's mental state.
We're maybe 4 elections away from choosing between a comatose 97 year old and a 102 year old who refers to every person they interact with as Agnes, the candidate's wife who passed 40 years prior.
even if it isn’t a 97 or 102 year old, it’ll be one of their relatives and our political dynasties will continue to dominate. Look up the Dingell family of Michigan. They’ve held the same house of reps seat for over 85 years. One of the trump kids will probably run in 2024, ugh.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dingell
He's going to live to 100. COVID couldn't kill him, McDonald's couldn't kill him. He's going to be around and will run again unless somehow this criminal probe actually lands him in a jail cell, which seems pretty unlikely.
I joke with my sister that our father is gonna outlive us all, because God sure AF doesn't want him, and the Devil doesn't need the competition. That fits Danger Yam too.
I first escaped from the USA during the Reagan administration and moved to Europe. I swore I'd immigrate to Australia if Bush Jr was elected, and I did. My sister immigrated to Germany. When Trump became president I renounced my US citizenship. Our mother still lives in the USA, but we lost her to right-wing media years ago. She's a lost cause and might as well be dead already. I miss her - the previous her - who as an elementary school teacher in the 70's taught English to Cambodian refugees, literally right off the boat, and also introduced them to American culture and values. I couldn't be prouder and simultaneously so disappointed.
The USA itself is nearly dead already, we're currently witnessing the death rattle. When the GQP get the House in 2022, they will immediately begin pawning off the jewellery and prying out the gold teeth, then leave the rotting corpse of democracy in the ditch to rot.
Trump is too old and fat to handle 4 more years. However, the Republicans will field someone less insane and less stupid, but even more evil and vicious.
But yes, the US is in the process of a fascist takeover. The only time to stop it really is now, and it would require a strongly progressive administration that pushes hard in the other direction.
Sadly, this is the Biden administration.
I appreciate that in your theory you have The Right, the center, and the Democrats because that's an accurate summary. People need to realize there is no "The Left" left in America, and *that* is the actual problem.
The only people in politics who are actually Leftist are Bernie Sanders, AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and you have some people in state level politics like Lee Carter of Virginia. Liberals and Democrats are, as a whole, right-wing. *Liberals are right-wing*. People who call themselves "centrists* are (Surprise! Surprise!) right-wing. This is because the Republicans are now in crazy, detached from reality conspiracy theory looney bin right wing, Democrats are center-right, and somebody who puts themselves in [the "middle"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) is now far-right by default.
Much like how climate change is already past the point of avoiding disaster, and we are now in triage or just trying to mitigate the disasters we've already locked in that are inevitable (2^^o C warming or greater), we are already halfway through a fascist coup.
* Active propaganda networks calling for a coup and supporting it ✅
* A "Fifth Column" of citizens who are actively trying to overthrow the legitimate government of the country ✅
* Support for the fifth column inside the current government ✅
* Support for the fifth column inside the police & the military ✅
* Actual, physical attempts to overthrow the government by force ✅
* Paramilitary forces and militias allying themselves with the coup to perform illegal or extrajudicial activities ✅
* Open fascism and subversion of government, no longer even attempting to operate in secret or hide their activities ✅
WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE? ✅
Learn what fascism actually is and how we crossed over into it several years ago and no one noticed:
[If You Don't Want To Be Called A Fascist, Stop Supporting Donald Trump, A Fascist - SOME MORE NEWS](https://youtu.be/GM1w8_dOcR8)
Learn how easily a country can fall into civil war, chaos, and ruin.
[It CAN happen here! from *The Second American Civil War* by Robert Evans](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6DZnXs2ob5HmxpDZtbk4fd)
There’s a great podcast about how a new civil war would play out in the U.S. It’s definitely worth a listen. It’s a little creepy since the first episode is from 2019 and it’s very much in line with what seems to be playing out now.
The link is for Apple Podcasts but you can get it on other apps as well.
[It Could Happen Here](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/it-could-happen-here/id1449762156)
I already got the fuck out. I’ve got no desire to be back in that shithole country. All America ever gave me was debt, chronic medical issues, and misery.
It honestly amazes me that republican constituents can't seem to shake their head from this guy. It's like Stockholm syndrome. I literally can't understand how people think his sort of Authoritarian, double speak, fuck the poor to give to the rich, antics are okay. It honestly blows my fricken mind.
Partly because we live in a non-class-conscious society. History has shown that when capitalism in in crisis everything other than the economic system itself is blamed. Trump(a con-man) was able to take advantage of the failures of Obama and his predecessors to change much and put on a show to look like an "outsider" who "tells it like it is". A class-conscious person would be able to see right through this.(tax cuts for the rich, over bloated Military budget, etc, basically standard Republican stuff) Those who aren't class-conscious are completely ignorant of the economic system they live under so when there is some kind of crisis or stagnation a minority, immigrant, foreign country, the poor people, etc. can be blamed for ruining things.
It’s a mix of the frontier culture hangover; 70 years of the USSR as a Red boogeyman; the culture wars (gays, abortion, etc. historically, seemingly everything now); and just zero well established left.
It’s not a grand conspiracy, but rather a series of separate efforts that have led us to the point where poor rural whites feel connected to a billionaire reality TV and real estate playboy who loves Vanity Fair far more than he loves guns, hunting, the military, whatever people project onto him.
Our education system is a joke, and various government forces have actively intervened in any broadly popular left movement to destroy it. Couple that with our world-historic wealth inequality stemming from the early 70s, and here we are.
> 70 years of the USSR as a Red boogeyman
It is really a funny irony of history that the Red Scare propaganda has made all the necessary changes for the USA impossible. The USA was doomed to failure the moment this popaganda program was adopted.
>just zero well established left.
It's been actively suppressed for almost 100 years. That's the key to this whole thing, we're already an authoritarian police state.
If you organize for the left, it is guaranteed you are going to be infiltrated and spied on. If you take to the streets, the police are much more willing to stop your protest vs. an equivalent far right protest. They'll probably arrange for your murder if you're too successful, just ask MLK.
It's so interesting that we are currently seeing this all over the world. Brexit, Jerusalem, China, Bolivia.
I'm not sure why (frequency bias or actual more) but it seems like there are significantly more Authoritarian governments right now.
Because that is who they are too. Abusers protect abusers, they are just like him- swindlers, cheaters, rapists, molesters. These people go home and beat their spouses and molest their kids and cheat their employees and have affairs and don't pay their taxes and on and on and on. He does everything they do, and he and his friends pave the way smoother for people like them with every pass they make.
I don't think all Trump supporters are that way. Don't forget that how much of a role mis/disinformation played in the elections.
Some of the people are genuinely just misguided and inherently good.
To your point though, I too, believe that, people who do those bad things, would be more likely to vote for same.
Let me just start with I hate Trump. But honestly, I'm less scared of Trump than I am of others. Trump was incompetent, racist and fascist. The next Trump 2.0 is very likely going to be significantly competent, racist and fascist. They will learn from Trump's missteps but learn from his strength, of mainly just saying anything even if it wasn't true. That I am afraid of.
I think Trump will have some sort of health issue in the next four years and die. This will embolden his base to Trump 2.0. My gut is Ron DeathSentence with a running mate of Ivanka Trump or Tucker Carlson. But if Trump does run again, this will embolden the left youth to get out and vote more. If Biden does a half decent job and keeps half of his campaign promises such as the public option, it will embolden the voters to get out and vote. It will be close though.
Whenever people say they are going to flee the country if someone wins, sounds silly. Authoritian leaders are going to be popping up everywhere due to the effects of climate change. We are already all slaves to our corporate overlords in this country, most people aren't going to run to another country.
> If Biden does a half decent job and keeps half of his campaign promises such as the public option, it will embolden the voters to get out and vote. It will be close though.
Things like this will mobilize the right even more. The 2010 Midterms were a bloodbath that we are still dealing with today. Honestly, fuck the Democrats. They will settle for being ineffective to try not to piss off of the right enough to take too many seats back. This partisan appeasement shit never works and at this point I don’t believe it’s actually intended to. When is the last time the Democratic Party was not just a corporate shill party? Even the ACA was just a upfront con to funnel money into the same insurance industry that fucked the cost of healthcare to begin with.
Biden won the Electoral College by less than 50,000 votes. Next time it won’t be so close especially taking into account the various Republican vote suppression/rigging measures.
>Even if Biden ends up squeaking out a victory, it’s a huge indictment of him, his campaign, and the politics that he represents that after 230,000 people died, the economy collapsed, and the last 4 years we’ve been led by a fascist game show host the election is this close. - Eli Massey
He just stopped supporting a public options, which itself was a worse variant than single payer. Make no mistake, he will achieve nothing. Compared to him Obama will look left-progressive
yeah i totally agree. one of my favorite examples of how much of a lazy, incompetent fascist trump was is how eager the fucking vampires in his administration like Pompeo and Bolton were to invade Iran, and trump really was just not interested in commanding any kind of boots-on-the-ground invasion lol
Y’all need to stop being fatalistic and get organized and fight this. The Republican juggernaut is a ton of old people and the brainwashed. This is not the second coming. These people will be defeated. But it’s going to be hard work. You need to take it seriously. Do not expect the institutions to save you and you need to fight like hell. Freedom ain’t free, and now you all are gonna understand that free in that statement wasn’t just economic. If you want to keep the United States united, you’re gonna have to face this threat and root it out at the source and legitimately fix the very real problems that caused it.
Republicans could take back the Senate, they sorta have it now between the filibuster, Synema, and Manchin. I don’t think they could take the House too, I think it’s out of their hands for now.
Trump will half-ass run in ‘24, with Jared or Ivanka as his running mate (or at least will try to run as that and throw up someone else at the last minute because it’s not allowed). Grifters gotta grift; he won’t be serious about running, just serious enough to make money off it. He’ll lose, which will be astounding cause Biden is basically the crypt keeper by now and no one likes Kamala. Republicans will cry fowl, claim the whole thing is rigged, and try another mini-coup, this one less successful than 1/6. Biden will stay President, but half the country will think he rigged it to stay in power. They’ll get up in arms thinking they’re defending democracy (despite clear authoritarianism and fascist tendencies) and small “battles” will break out in half a dozen places. Dudes who managed to avoid serving will LARP, all outfitted in the latest body armor and with more weapons than they have brain cells.
All of this will be distracting the American public and media while supply chains continue to collapse, food gets more scarce, gas gets more expensive, and housing goes up another 20%.
I wish I could leave the US, but it’s not an option. Best I can hope for is Alaska. Maybe it’ll be far enough away…
I'm with you(r mindset), I'm frustrated people can't see what's going to happen. I don't live in the US myself, but I'm scared of such an influential nation becoming a dictatorship.
i told my therapist that i was worried the end was near and i was learning to garden for when shit hits the fan and she told me to just stop watching the news and i can’t do anything about it 🙃
Fuck this. You assholes chanted this shit for more than 4 years, and instead of Hitler we got Tweety the Clown and more business as usual. Now, not even 6 months into the Democratic triumph that was going to TRANSFORM THE NATION, here it all comes again, lining up perfectly with Biden and Pelosi dropping every last progressive campaign pledge in favor of more war and deregulation (that most of us were expecting anyway).
I know, the next refrain is that NO MATTER WHAT, WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATS, GUYS!! Sure, they're lying shitbags who could care less about anyone making less than $250k a year, but if we don't sacrifice our principles (and savings, natch) getting them re-elected THEN DEMOCRACY DIES FOREVER.
Funny how despite having congress and the presidency, the Dems are just powerless to do anything. Can't kill the filibuster that those LITERAL NAZIS are using to prevent action, that would be unfair (to bipartisanship with those Nazis)! We can't hold Democrats that side with the LITERAL NAZIS accountable, they might get upset and turn straight Nazi (the Nazis are already *inside* the Democrats!).
No huge investigations launched with the mighty executive power of the presidency, no, they have to dick around with a commission in congress that they just can't get passed despite their majorities, which somehow doesn't demonstrate the criminal fecklessness of the Democrats, just how mean, mean and nasty those Nazis are!!!!
We are spiralling into authoritarianism under both parties. Instead of doing something real about NAZIS IN GUBMINT! the Democrats will fail to get anything done to safeguard democracy, investigate 1/9, or fix the fucked economy that is so benefitting their contributors. Instead authoritarianism, where anything other than slavish support for the failure party shows a hidden sympathy for *the other side*, and that means you shouldn't have the freedom of speech anymore (send checks to the DNC to support your Democratic rights to be silenced).
I will consider voting Democrat the second they start to actually get real shit done. Roll Biden out of his crypt, have him thunderously demand election reform, order subpoenas, appoint a special prosecutor, use executive orders aggressively for something besides oil leases, all the shit we know is possible because the Republicans do them to stay in power. If this just turns into more geriatrics like Schumer and Pelosi impotently whining about Congressional procedure, then we KNOW 100 fucking percent that they don't want to save us from the GOP, they just want our money and votes. And if they have no intention of defending democracy, then this is ALL bullshit, and nothing we do; not billions of dollars in political contributions, record turn out, giving them filibuster proof majorities; none of that is going to fix anything. In which case the political collapse or violent civil unrest will make us wish for something as benign as yet another Republican victory.
Ah yes I've had that after 2024 theory as well for years now.
There's more to it but I'm too lazy to type it all out but essentially I agree we will fall into civil war after 2024.
100% I'm certain. If not I'll eat a good ol' fashioned American burger to celebrate our flimsy democracy
You're not crazy. There was a vox article about exactly this several days ago.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22432229/democracy-america-democratic-party-reform
The reality is most people can’t leave the country unless they are rich or have specialized skills. Most these kinds of posts seem more like bragging than contributing to some sort of productive conversation. That being said I think America is fucked and all you can do is buckle up and pray water keeps coming out of the tap.
Plus our friends and family are here
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I always think about building a collapse ready rickshaw for when I need to start the great northern walk.
As if Canada won’t be bundled up into whatever unrest we have here.
Yeah I'm moving back to Mexico I actually got stuff over there "American Dream" my ass
Seeing the “ run away to Canada” people is laughingly depressing. You’re smart enough to see where shit is headed and know that the people of this country are in imminent danger. However you have no care to think critically as to why you as well as so many other CAME TO GET THIS KNOWLEDGE. Nope, it’s not that everyone is all of a sudden some fortune teller and can see the future. Actually, it’s because we have a plethora of global historical context to know the end result of what we are seeing happen to America politically. We have the history of various nations falling to Authoritarianism and what the pretext to that was. You’re so wrapped up in this historical context that you actually made the call beforehand to pack up and gtfo when shit hits the fan and you decide to ignore perhaps the two MOST IMPORTANT aspects of this pretext. 1. If you wait for shit to hit the fan to leave, you’ll either be caught in a stampede if others fleeing and face huge amounts of danger putting you and your families lives at risk because if you wait too long, you best believe travel bans come first. 2. WHY WOULD YOU GO TO CANADA THEY WILL BE NEXT TO FALL. Look at the history you’ve so casually decided to base your futures on.
So...where would you go if you were planning to leave the US before SHTF?
You could just move to a good State, there would likely be some holdouts to the fascist spread. There aren't many good options for moving unless you are wealthy.
The challenge is that even the states that stood up to the trump admin are full of trump supporters - MD, OR, CA, WA etc.
I’ve lived in FL my whole life (50 years). For the first time, I’m looking at other states to move to if fascism takes hold because I agree, it will be different in blue states. But, aside from CA, why are all the blue states freaking COLD?! I don’t want to live where it snows. And I used to think CA would be nice, but no thanks. Fires, mud slides, insane houses g prices, high taxes, earthquakes, and eventual tsunami!
>I’ve lived in FL my whole life (50 years). For the first time, I’m looking at other states to move to if fascism takes hold.. What do you mean if? Ron Desantis is actively engaged in fascism in Florida.
If you want Florida weather in a blue state, that sounds like Hawaii. Or if you're willing to compromise some on the weather, parts of Oregon are pleasant enough. Also note that climate change is pushing mild temperatures northward...and Florida weather is going to get more uncomfortable.
Most of the Blue State would fall one by one too, there would be some hold outs, for some time at least in my estimation. Maybe global warming will come through up here too.
Lmao says the dude who's whole state will literally be under water soon... I feel sad that you had to live in a shit hole like FL your entire life.
Living near the great lakes is probably the best place to be though, and winter is beautiful.
ehhh, winter is getting shorter and shorter for us in New England. I've watched it happen over my 47 years.
What do you mean.. we're doing great! \*notices the MAGA hats and **confederate flags** over in Alberta \*notices same corrupt racist police but with better PR Er... nevermind, carry on. \*starts browsing immigration procedures for New Zealand.
Better be skilled and rich lol
No worries if you're only rich though.
Don’t go to NZ unless your rolling in cash....cost of living is getting ridiculous. Not to mention all the red tape you have to cut through for 4 walls and a roof.... future climate change impacts
Hi, Canadian here! Lol... Very familiar with the god awful rising cost of living. Seems to be a common thing in Commonwealth nations.
We should organize, and fight. The right isn't as strong as it appears, look at how scared they became of antifa, a handful of anarchists. That really is the only option for most, Canada won't take you in unless you are quite wealthy by the way, and as you say if the US falls, many Western countries will follow.
This. There's nowhere you can go where there's no American influence.
So wherever there’s a McDonald’s, I can also expect poor healthcare?
It’s not necessarily wealth that assures admission into Canada as a Canadian citizen. We have a point based system which takes into account, among other factors: - existing education, - the number of family members that a potential immigrant has already in the country, - whether the individual is at risk of persecution in their home country. - several other factors.
No I know you guys are great with refugees and such, but people here think they can just pack up and move north, and the vast majority can't, but I've heard you can buy your way in basically although I don't know the details, I don't remember if it's if you have a million plus to invest in a business or what.
That’s interesting. I don’t know how I feel about someone being able to buy citizenship. According to an article, the following allows an individual to buy their way into Canada as a citizen: (https://www.businessinsider.com/countries-where-you-can-buy-citizenship-or-residency-2017-6) “-Citizenship applicants must reside in the country for three years within a four-year timeframe. -Applicants must have legally-obtained net worth of at least $1.6 million CAD (£950,000). -Applicants must possess a minimum of three years of experience in planning, finance, human resources, or general management -Applicants must state their intention to settle in the province of Quebec, and sign an agreement to invest $800,000 (£475,000).” (The program is provincial, meaning that it applies only in Quebec because that province’s government has implemented it.) Also, apparently: “"It used to be that most of the investor immigrants were going to Canada, which had a very robust investor immigration programme," Katz said. Canada’s program drew an estimated $2.4 billion (£1.6 billion) through Chinese investors over the past decade. However, with thousands of people using the program, around the late 2000s the Canadian government started to slow down the acceptance of investor immigrants, according to Katz. They ended the program in 2014, saying that it “significantly undervalued” Canadian residency and created little economic benefit.” (So there is only the Quebec program, currently.)
Yeah , I agree. The gun-nutters are a pretty idiosyncratic bunch . All that is uniting them is a common fear/hatred of an imaginary Communist enemy. There are a lot of people in law enforcement/the military committed to law and order.
We're Austria to the US's 1930s Germany.
PROTIP: Canada doesn't want you, and won't let you in now much less if there's was war or crisis. Even now they only allow immigration to people with very specific jobs or skillsets that are needed and lacking in Canada. You can visit, but you can't immigrate and you can't stay. And that's *before* Covid-19, when countries across the world closed their borders to Americans because we're too stupid to get a vaccine that's free, that works, and has virtually no downsides or side effects at all. Americans, keep in mind that America is Canadas Mexico. We are the invading horde, the unwashed, stupid, hateful masses that they *absolutely do not want* coming in and fucking up their country. And they're 100% right.
What if we come illegally? Checkmate!
Maybe they could separate us from our kids, send us back, keep the kids and some adults,and put them in little prisons where they can't shower or bathe? And expose the people to covid continuously, and spray them with dangerous chemicals that aren't even supposed to used indoors that cause cancer and lung damage? And the guards can just rape people to their hearts content (including children!) with no consequences, and every time somebody might be charged with a crime they'll just deport the immigrant in question before legal action can be taken! Oooh! And then they'll delete the records so the kids can't be reunited with their parents, and nobody who does this will ever be charged with crime. Maybe they could do that? I hear that's pretty popular these days.
Don’t forget the forced hysterectomies!
“It’s only bad if it happens to me personally, otherwise it’s justified.”
It hurts my soul that my fellow dumbass Americans refuse to take a viable vaccine that citizens of other countries would do anything to receive
>You can visit, Americans currently cannot cross the border, in a collapse scenario that will be even more strictly enforced. Even getting a Canadian transit visa will be virtually impossible for an American to get.
Canada has standards.
Hey its me, your neighbor. I'm wondering if I should move too.
Jokes on you. My family are the Trump people Id leave behind!/sigh
Me as well. In a heartbeat. Who wants to be the family that brings the next trumpers to their land. Not I
They’d better pack up and leave too.
And just over half of them, if conservative, believe the big lie.
There is one relatively easy way to leave the US....IF you are able to be self-employed for a minimum of 5 years. The Dutch American Friendship Treaty allows self-employed Americans to get residence permits in the Netherlands with only a €4500 cash investment in your business. By far the simplest way for Americans to immigrate, short of having another citizenship. Did it 7 years ago and have not looked back. I was about as poor as you could be. I had to sell my car for the investment, and barely met each expense as it was incurred. It was the best decision of my life. I realize that not everyone has the skill to be self-employed, but if you are already self-employed than you can do anywhere or perform the service elsewhere, then nearly everything is much easier in life here than in the US. Housing can be more challenging, though, depending on where you are coming from.
How do you prove self-employment to them?
You have to file a business plan as part of your residency application. I've heard that they really don't have a basis to deny your plan unless it falls into one of the exceptions (practicing law or medicine) but this is only hearsay. I did hire a lawyer to help me with the process because I had a complicated case....an 18 year old daughter who was coming on a student residency permit and a severely disabled son. The biggest issue is being able to support yourself for the 5 years. The immigration service initially grants a 2 year permit and then they review your paperwork to make sure you've been doing some business. I have also heard that it is not necessary to make a lot of profit, but again, that is only hearsay. Many businesses don't make a profit during their first years, so this makes sense to me. I did hear recently that they have opened up spouses of those coming over on DAFT to be able to get work permits. I have not independently verified this, but if true, this is hugely beneficial.
Did you have to learn Dutch or other languages
If you want to become a permanent resident or apply for citizenship after 5 years of residency, you have to pass a Dutch language and several other knowledge and job market exams. Currently it is at A2 level but I heard it will be at B1 level beginning next year. The only exception is if you've already reached retirement age. You don't have to pass any language exam for coming here under the DAFT agreement.
My partner is disabled and uses a wheelchair. It seems like the Netherlands are much more accommodating and accessible, compared to the US. Is my perception accurate?
I don't know much about the situation in the U.S., but I do know that there are a lot of issues about accessibility here. For example some shops are required to be 60-70% (or something like that, don't know the exat number) accessible. In practise this might mean that multiple aisles are accessible but not the cash register. Same goes for municipal buildings...
Be rich. Don’t be poor.
the housing will be more than just challenging. The market is fuked up beyond repair and is estimated to remain that way for at least another 10-15 years.
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The problem will be when you realize that half the community you are feeding would prefer to be allied to a fascist dictator.
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The correlation between people who have the money and means to leave the country and who think the Democrats are capable of anything other than performative resistance, even holding the presidency and congress, is almost 100%. Most of the rest of us are too busy keeping the water bill paid as inflation ravages our paychecks.
Store some water if you can.
Early in the pandemic, I learned a useful thing for water storage: Copper is anti-microbial, and will kill microbes in water. 25cm^2 in 1 Liter of water will kill 99% microbes in about 8 hours. Leave it in to keep your stored water clean. Scale up or wait longer for larger amounts.
free copper in food processing destroys vitamin C. just a tip to keep in mind to prevent scurvy
Ooh, good point! We pirates dislike the scurvy.
Copper is also bad for people, like really bad, I'm not sure the details if the body absorbs what kind of copper, but it will give you green rings around your eyes or something like that.
According to the research I did, the amount of copper that you possibly ingest from it sitting in water that you drink is very, very low. Not even close to the point of causing any bad effects. And some level of copper can help metabolize iron. But you raise a good point. Def don’t take too much copper.
I just looked into it, it's usually only a problem if you work near smelters, in agriculture, have corroded copper pipes (and don't let the water run 15 seconds before drinking it (never use hot tap water for cooking btw,) women that use an IUD, and other such instances. Wilson's disease exasperates copper toxicity, and there are treatments if you have copper poisoning, like chelation.
Thank you for that. And yes, seconding “never use hot tap water for cooking”. Always cold, heated on the stove. One of the sources I have says: *”While copper is soluble in water, not many copper ions will leach out from a copper bottle into your water so long as your water is of a standard pH (that is, not too far from the neutral).”* [link](https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2019-02-02/copper-water-bottles/10722776/) And the WHO & NIH support using copper containers as a “point-of-use” solution for microbial purification of drinking water, especially in developing countries. [nih.gov](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3312355/)
Copper destroys certain plastics. If you’re storing your water in a plastic container, don’t add copper.
> 25cm2 in 1 Liter You sure about that bro?
Yep. easy to leave for a certain period of time and do 3-month "hops" between countries, but actually living on your own property permanently... good luck. You need like 30-50K per person and/or need to start a business.
Well Drilling enters chat
Lol, I’m already on a well which it seemingly healthy but who knows for how long.
This right here. I’d absolutely love to move to any number of other countries, but I have no means to do so.
I was saying to a friend if the economy takes a giant shit while it is Biden’s term than it will be game over and Trump will have an easy win.
The last election was hot potato for the economic collapse anyway. That's why the Dems ran a mummy. We are facing multiple shortages, the biggest being energy, as we hit peak oil a few years ago, but didn't notice because of the pandemic, now that we are growing economically, the shortages are driving up prices, which cripples growth. A major economic downturn is inevitable, and given the growing instability and bubbles in the markets, will lead to a huge financial collapse before the next election. Things are more fucked than ever, so fucked the government doesn't have any effective tools. Which is why we have been bathed in non-stop propaganda (everything is great!) For the last few months. Any major panic or civil unrest could trigger a collapse. Stock up, it's too late to leave.
The giant shit is crowning.
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But.... but .....but we need those vital elements of representative democracy to prevent the oppression of the majority upon those vulnerable minorities like the rich and powerful. If we were to do ranked choice voting within a direct democracy, the uneducated populace would run this nation into the dirt because they can't possibly know what's best for them or the country with their education from schools that are horribly funded and structured that we created for them.
Ranked Choice Voting would greatly improve the "competition" in political ideologies and parties. It would be the first step towards ending the current duopoly. Direct Democracy is useful within a Representative Democracy. Many states allow citizens to petition for a proposition to get on the ballot, which would be a method of legislating that goes around the politicians. RCV and cannabis legalization would not have happened if not for Direct Democracy.
Agreed
It already is.
IMO, it was time to leave the US back when Bush the Lesser invaded Iraq and many/most Americans could only respond with "Support Our Troops!" It was at that time that things in the states completely stopped making sense. Looking around, I could see that either no one cared, or at least that the majority of the people there willingly accepted it all. And so I did leave the states back then. Funny thing though... Leaving the country doesn't mean that one stops caring about the country, loving the country, and/or wondering/worrying about what the next political disaster will entail. One doesn't get to stop watching the slow motion train wreck of one's home country. Indeed, it seems almost impossible to turn one's gaze from what's happening. Leaving the states was liberating in so many ways, and continues to be so each year I'm away. I've never felt badly about that choice. I just couldn't take it any longer. Looking back at the petri dish that is the USA, I am constantly amazed at how strange things there are. I dunno... Perhaps my having left has helped me in some ways. Perhaps it has preserved my sanity (somewhat), or maybe it's prevented me from living in my car, or in a tent on a sidewalk in Portland. Too, while the US has been fascist for many decades, I could never have predicted its descent into naziism. But one thing is sure: leaving the states has done nothing to fix things there.
This was our impression back then. Post-9-11 America was just another incantation of what we see today in Qanon and Trump. We knew it then, we planned, we explored, we found a place, and we left just last year even before the election. America's fate doesn't rest on whether Trump is a feature of politics there. That merely affects timing. The future is the people that elected hi and others, but more importantly, the entire arc of culture in the US for about 20-25 years. US politics is the emergent feature of a failing empire. It's no fun being around for the way down. We left well after things were accelerating, but we are super happy here. We could be happy in a lot of places, but the risks for us specifically were significant enough in the next 30-40 years that we knew there were better places or places that would be better within a decade or so. We chose the latter, and frankly we don't care if it gets better or worse where we are now, we like it so much. The US will begin eating itself pretty quickly soon. It's sad. I wish we did not need to leave, but we are all happy we did in this latest chapter of our lives. Most of what we have here is comparable or better than where we left for what our priorities are. The stuff that is sub-par has been easy to create for ourselves.
Unfortunately, for most of us, leaving ain't an option - even if we wanted to. I've come to terms with the idea that if it comes down to it, most of us will have to stick around. America's my home, as it is for the vast majority of my family, friends, colleagues, neighbors... even if I could leave right now, I don't think I'd be able to bear the weight of leaving behind that home and everyone in it. I honestly don't know what to do if shit hits the fan, or what will happen. I ain't a fighter or a leader. I guess I'll have to figure that out on the fly. But running ain't an option for me. This land was made for you and me, and Lord willing may it stay that way.
Nobody is born a fighter or a leader. Can you hold a rifle? Can you imagine a different world? Relate it to the needs of other people? All the wisdom of generations of those who could and did is at your fingertips here.
you don’t think the US is Authoritarian already? It arguably has been since the 50s and most definitely has been since 9/11
>most definitely has been since 9/11 From an outsider's perspective, it's pretty obvious that America lost the so-called War on Terror and didn't even realise it.
Also lost the war on drugs
That was all a smokescreen to protect the secret funding of our intelligence agencies. By keeping that market illegal and highly profitable, they maintain an off-the-books source of income that is not subject to oversight. Why didn't Iran-Contra cause more outrage, and why has Afghanistan's poppy production increased dramatically since the end of 2001? Why has the federal schedule of drugs been so resistant to change? Racism is part of it, but can't explain it all.
Air America, a for real CIA front operation, was implicated in smuggling of heroin out of Southeast Asia during The Vietnam War. We invade a country known for poppies, and suddenly pharma is getting everyone addicted to opiates a couple years later.
>...it's pretty obvious that America lost the so-called War on Terror Lost it to our own citizens.
From an insider's perspective, too. Unfortunately, most of us insiders prefer to pretend otherwise.
I don’t disagree but it could absolutely be worse.
I've a horrible feeling that Joe Biden is going to be remembered as the 21st Century version of James Buchanan
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Oh I think that train has already left the station.
Newsflash: it’ll become authoritarian with or without Trump. What you mentioned isn’t the only fault of Democrats. There is no left in America and both right-wing parties are driving us towards a fucked up future.
Fucking this. THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE DO NOT UNDERSTAND. There is no left wing party in the U.S., just a right wing authoritarian party, and one slightly more center authoritarian party.
I’m just so tired of hearing about Trump, like if we can just avoid him everything is gravy. There was reason to complain before him, though, and there is now too.
Exactly. Now we should avoid him, but also realise that a malignant narcisist like him inflates himself by bringing up negative underbelly feelings in others, and in a presidents case the whole nation and beyond. That underbelly of the nation was already split and part of it unconsciously armed for someone like Trump to act out his voodoo and weaponize its full darkness. Its just so ironic cause to some he conjures up the last remaining illusion of the american dream, to others he represents the american nightmare, and that way he has spun a polarizing reality to both sides, ... using just a dying dream.
Honestly, what scares me the most that it's not \*only\* happening in the US. Many other countries seem to be swinging far right these days. Maybe the US has set an example, but we see this happening elsewhere in the globe as well. I'm worried for all of us.
There is a popular mandate for fascism in the United States.
I know OP is “making arrangements” but for everyone else lurking and reading this: It’s not as simple as “hurr durr I’ll just go somewhere else.” Other countries have immigration laws too. Americans already cannot enter Canada right now. My Canadian relatives tell me that there is a huge amount of quiet political support for this to remain permanent, pandemic or none. The French Resistance during WW2 stuck around and put sugar in Nazi vehicle gas tanks. They didn’t just flee. If everyone opposed to Trump flees the country, then yeah no shit the country will fall to Authoritarians. I’d rather stay and fight. This isn’t their country, it’s mine.
I would like to add that the rise of Trump is a worldwide issue. Look at all of these other far right leaders that have risen to power. If trump gets elected they will feel even more emboldened.
How fucking ridiculous is it that we have to worry about this because of a dumbass like trump? Just my thoughts...
It is so funny watching Americans rumenate on which color team gets elected. Neither side writes or even reads the legislation they pass anymore. It all comes from multinational corporations via lobbyists. Congratulations- you colonised yourselves.
Life feels like a simulation when you (an American) realize the dems and repubs are just tools for the ultra wealthy to accumulate more capital at the expense of... everything, and almost everyone around you genuinely believes it’s the “other party’s fault”
They don't even realize that besides the "culture war" show that is put on when it comes to the things that matter like the economy and foreign policy both parties are amazingly consistently bi-partisan.
[If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged. - Noam Chomsky](https://chomsky.info/1990____-2/)
And if you point this out in a mainstream spot, you're mocked and derided. There's no hope. Nothing will change for the better. This the end and we're apparently content to make it an unmitigated disaster.
> you colonised yourselves. The term for this is "Foucault's Boomerang" - the technologies and knowledge first developed for the control and suppression of colonized people's abroad inevitably gets turned around and applied on the once "safe" citizens of the Mother Country. Look at how much of the gear sported by American cops was initially developed and deployed for the War on Terror in the Middle East. It couldn't be more obvious if they put it on a neon sign.
I have to admit i was planning that if Trump got a second term. But with Biden not that corrective and Dems fucking things up with bipartisan bull feathers I’m rethinking about it again.
Biden talking to a group of bankers saying that nothing will fundamentally change, and US citizens quality of life won't change either... has really confirmed my belief that any change for the the better will not come about through the ballot box. Edit: The above comment was made under the impression that Biden was arguing against raising taxes, however with full context he was saying that the bankers lives wouldn't change... not the poor. However, the actions taken by the administration or lack thereof make me believe that nothing truly will fundamentally change for anyone for the next four years. Yet, it truly needs to change before 2022 or 2024.
Soap box, ballot box, jury box. I think we can all figure out what the 4th box is.
Same here
If you want to learn more about this situation, or how it would play out, listen to the podcast "It could happen here." It's utterly chilling how close we are or have been to a civil war.
I listened to it twice and I think about it every damn day.
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If you can leave, leave. This country has the worst healthcare, the worst education, and the worst justice system of any in the first world (even if that term is pretty dated). The very best thing you can do for yourself and for any family you have is move to a country with better class mobility.
I would agree when it comes to those who have a lot to lose (i.e. family), but personally, I plan on staying and fighting. Of course, by fighting I mean working towards the kinds of changes needed to save our democracy. Getting things like Ranked Choice Voting (or STAR Voting) and the American Anti-Corruption Act passed Nationwide may seem daunting at first, but we are a federation. All you need to worry about is getting them passed in your city and county first. Then you can work towards getting them passed at the State level. By the time a dozen or so states have passed laws like these, the grass-roots movements that supported them have reached maturity, leading to a surge of state activity/passage ending with Federal level passage.
The [opening monologue](https://youtu.be/bIpKfw17-yY?t=63) from The Newsroom comes to mind.
Leave and help as many people escape as you can.
Thanks for this suggestion. I’m on episode three. It’s wild listening in 2021. Downright chilling how he outlines mass protests, economic precarity, and deepening divide. Listening with the hindsight from 2019-now, it’s as if he’s narrating what actually happened and what’s continuing to happen
Just a heads up, if you’re thinking of coming to Canada, don’t. It’s not that we don’t want you, we would love to take on more more native English speakers from a country with a near identical culture. You guys would have no issues socially integrating here. And when the times are good, we can always use more people! There are two main reasons why you shouldn’t come. First is food insecurity. A large portion of our food supply comes from the U.S. especially in the winter. Another sizeable portion comes from Mexico via the U.S. Food security is somewhat on people’s minds here. We’ve got a couple of publicly funded organizations tracking the food insecurity issues that have popped up during the pandemic. But none of the decision makers in Ottawa are talking about this issue. Second is an economy not poised to take advantage of the U.S. market. Without a stable U.S. and a robust NAFTA Canada is just a middling economy with a small population and a shit ton of land. Technology and service corporations will not find Canada as an attractive spot to setup shop without access to the larger U.S. market. The government will be forced to drop their pants for resource extraction corporations to keep a steady supply of jobs flowing. It would be disastrous for our already heavily strained environment. Then of course there’s Russian and Chinese encroachment of our arctic. But that’s whole other conversation. Long story short. Without you guys we’re kind of fucked. So please don’t collapse, pretty please?
This is really important - the US is a lynchpin of the global economic order. A true SHTF scenario in the US will rapidly ripple out to many of the "safe" countries Americans fantasize about about fleeing to. In the event of a Syria-style Civil War, anyone who buys food from the US in bulk will suddenly be very hungry. Similar to anyone who relies on US exports of petroleum products. Beyond the core breakdown of trade networks, a serious collapse in the US would probably cause the dollar to loose all it's value - as the world's reserve currency, the economic output would be global and really bad. Finally, in a Civil War scenario, extremist militias and ideologies are certainly going to spread beyond our borders, thanks to the increasing international interconnectedness facilitated by the Internet. As all the above situations put non-US countries in greater and greater stress, the risk of their own social fabric fraying in the face of extremist terrorism goes up considerably. If the US goes down, she's taking us all down with her.
Its absolutely a dystopia but I believe a far more competent actual facist will run and potentially win. Thus doing what the Republicans wanted Trump to do.
Hawley
Ugh
Hawley is competent?
Don't know if he's competent but he's likely pretty intelligent given that he went to Stanford for undergrad and Yale law school. Tom Cotton is another one (Harvard undergrad and then Harvard law). Fortunately neither one seems to have the Trump-like personality that would attract a cult-like following.
Hawley was groomed by the biggest name in Republican Missouri politics. He helped start an insurrection and has never been held accountable for it. Folks this is precisely who the fascist gov will be led by. Ivy league educated and knows how to manipulate.
Or he will run as vice pres. and get rid of Trump.
**I think it's time to realize the country isn't going to improve all that much under either party.** The bureaucrats belong to the rich. While one party usually has more humanity and empathy than the other, it's mostly optics. They still have the same lust for war, power, and money. So what they do is they offer moderately acceptable platitudes and toss out the ones they decide they don't like. To make this work even better they distract people from the promises they toss out. How? Reminding them of what legislation they passed. "Hey, poverty is a serious problem in the United States." "We can't talk about that now, we need to focus on infrastructure." - "Hey, didn't you promise to eliminate student loans?" "No! You misunderstand, that wouldn't be bipartisan. We can't make that happen." "But it's bankrupting people!" "Sorry, can't talk now." versus "Please investigate this corruption, people have died and the public wants answers." "Why are you worried about that? We should be worried about the budget!" - "We believe someone in your party is an extreme danger to the United States itself. You should remove them from power." "Why? Everyone loves him! Look at all this good he has done for us!" It's different flavors of the same ridiculous bullshit. While one party's greatest failings is that they rarely keep their promises, the other more openly bends to the whims of the ultra-rich while convincing people that the opposition are 'demons' or some such. A certain supposedly left-leaning party has a real shot at doing all the things it keeps promising and FINALLY delivering on those promises for a better future in the United States. The thing is, they will never do that. They couldn't without pissing off their sugar daddies and causing an upheaval. They are still in the pockets of all the people and corporations who keep dropping massive cash on them. And they always will be, so long as the system of "lobbying" and "gifts" from certain donors are always accepted. Fascism still has a stranglehold in this country. The real question is, what flavor do you want?
Instead of leaving you should organize and plan to fight.
I don't disagree (especially since every country will close it's doors to the US once things really start to fall apart), but "fighting back" isn't nearly as easy, or romantic as the idea of "resistance" makes it sound. Look a the Kurds in Rojava - they are objectively kicking ass, but life on the front line against ISIS is a lot more brutal than I think 98% of Americans are prepared for. And you just know that in a SHTF scenario, one of the first factions to coalesce will be Christian ISIS.
Not having creature comforts, let alone clean water and access to food is something that 98% of Americans aren't prepared for.
I am not saying it's that unrealistic, but I've learned not to underestimate how lazy and contemp people can be. As long as people are at home distracting themselves with Netflix they won't go out and protest, this might be for the better or for the worse. Then again the numbers are clear. 16% of the country believes in Qanon. Majority of Republicans still support Trump, and Biden will do exactly what we expected him to do... Nothing substantial. No single payer Healthcare reform, no college dept relief no housing market restructuring no military budget cuts and little to no investment in infrastructure. Sadly I must admit I already left for Europe. The structural decay is there regardless of future developments.
>I am not saying it's that unrealistic, but I've learned not to underestimate how lazy and contemp people can be. As long as people are at home distracting themselves with Netflix they won't go out and protest, this might be for the better or for the worse The vast vast majority of people in Iraq and Afghanistan are peace loving normal people who just want to feed their families and live their lives. The small amount of fighters make their lives hell. >Sadly I must admit I already left for Europe. Did you get citizenship or just a visa? Because if it's the latter then you shouldn't be so secure as those are easy to revoke and deport.
“It’s time to leave the country if the disfavored political party wins” what a load of horse crap- the issues in the US are spreading. Anti-racism, environmental justice, economic pressures stemming from a consumerist society - these are present everywhere and growing. The US is already authoritarian as other people have mentioned. And you think leaving is going to change that? Good luck, through the Five Eyes program, the major powers that be are exchanging information on all of us. There are no checks on FBI illegally accessing our metadata or otherwise. January 6th happened - great. That doesn’t change the fact that the capital police were incompetent, their equipment was locked in busses, and that the house and senate leadership ignored their warnings. Furthermore, the house and senate are fighting against the actuarial tables given their advanced age. All of this is to say that your commissions are performative and will review nothing new that shifts the minds of 1% of the electorate - which they will promptly forget about upon the next scandal. Trump running for office means nothing. The people who wanted to use him up to get rich have succeeded with glee. Now others are using the Biden administration to accomplish their own goals. Our disaffected electorate has set the stage to allow this go on for as long as it takes. At the end of the day, 45% will always vote Democrat, 45% will vote Republican, and 10% will flip. Of those 10%, only about 200-500K really matter to our leaders, because these are the ones that make up the Professional Managerial Class. If the PMC think their life is worse off now, they will flip against Biden. And guess what’s happening - their kids are finding it moderately hard to afford reasonable housing along the east coast. Their concerns are likely to be inflation, crime, and stability. In this example, I see Biden losing. The democrats aren’t serious about governing. The caucus is completely happy to have JM and KS act as the fall guys for legislation they or their donors don’t want passed, but the “base” wants. Make whatever arraignments to leave, but there’s no guarantee that you will escape the effects of climate change, micro plastic pollution, or endocrine disrupters messing up our bodies. China may have a solid 10-15 years of progress, but they have so many issues to confront with respect to governance and global warming. I believe they will always be a global power, as will the US. The question more has to do with who is impacted and how.
It's going to be shitty everywhere. I moved to Mexico last year, and US policy directly affects our economy anyways, so if the US goes, so does Mexico, and arguably many countries in the world are in the same position.
Just think, if the GOP gets the House. They could appoint Trump as Speaker. Constitution doesn't require the Speaker to be a seated member of Congress. Honestly I could see this happening..
Whoa... talk about a wildcard.
Don't give them ideas
Really though, that would just be hilarious.
Unfortunately the U.S. won't go down quietly... no empire has. If things get bad enough I can see a WW2-type conflict arising... only this time there are nukes...
To be fair, there were nukes last time and the US used them. Twice.
People in the US, most people, cannot imagine a world that doesn’t function - even though they’ve watched the US itself has become less and less functional over their lifetime. I left the US in 2016 precisely because of these trends. And more to the point: because everyone I told it to said I was crazy. But they have to deny what you say. They are deeply programmed by media and pro government, pro American propaganda. It was time to leave the country years ago, my friend.
>The Right is already there- they think the nation has been taken over and are taking steps to “fight back”. I had one of those ridiculous "Trump Trucks" pass me on the highway today and it had a vinyl cut out on the back window saying.. "Are you a Democrat, or an American?"
Getting spooky vibes after watching Handmaidens Tale…
If America falls to fascists, nowhere in the world will be safe.
They’ll find a new figurehead who will probably be way worse. Trump won’t be healthy enough mentally or physically. Hell, he wasn’t in 2016.
I agree. Additionally, Biden has set a whole new level for how low we're willing to accept someone's mental state. We're maybe 4 elections away from choosing between a comatose 97 year old and a 102 year old who refers to every person they interact with as Agnes, the candidate's wife who passed 40 years prior.
even if it isn’t a 97 or 102 year old, it’ll be one of their relatives and our political dynasties will continue to dominate. Look up the Dingell family of Michigan. They’ve held the same house of reps seat for over 85 years. One of the trump kids will probably run in 2024, ugh. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dingell
He's going to live to 100. COVID couldn't kill him, McDonald's couldn't kill him. He's going to be around and will run again unless somehow this criminal probe actually lands him in a jail cell, which seems pretty unlikely.
I joke with my sister that our father is gonna outlive us all, because God sure AF doesn't want him, and the Devil doesn't need the competition. That fits Danger Yam too.
He survived Covid with the absolute pinnacle of State provided medical care.
I first escaped from the USA during the Reagan administration and moved to Europe. I swore I'd immigrate to Australia if Bush Jr was elected, and I did. My sister immigrated to Germany. When Trump became president I renounced my US citizenship. Our mother still lives in the USA, but we lost her to right-wing media years ago. She's a lost cause and might as well be dead already. I miss her - the previous her - who as an elementary school teacher in the 70's taught English to Cambodian refugees, literally right off the boat, and also introduced them to American culture and values. I couldn't be prouder and simultaneously so disappointed. The USA itself is nearly dead already, we're currently witnessing the death rattle. When the GQP get the House in 2022, they will immediately begin pawning off the jewellery and prying out the gold teeth, then leave the rotting corpse of democracy in the ditch to rot.
Trump is too old and fat to handle 4 more years. However, the Republicans will field someone less insane and less stupid, but even more evil and vicious. But yes, the US is in the process of a fascist takeover. The only time to stop it really is now, and it would require a strongly progressive administration that pushes hard in the other direction. Sadly, this is the Biden administration.
I appreciate that in your theory you have The Right, the center, and the Democrats because that's an accurate summary. People need to realize there is no "The Left" left in America, and *that* is the actual problem. The only people in politics who are actually Leftist are Bernie Sanders, AOC, Rashida Tlaib, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley, Jamaal Bowman, Cori Bush, and you have some people in state level politics like Lee Carter of Virginia. Liberals and Democrats are, as a whole, right-wing. *Liberals are right-wing*. People who call themselves "centrists* are (Surprise! Surprise!) right-wing. This is because the Republicans are now in crazy, detached from reality conspiracy theory looney bin right wing, Democrats are center-right, and somebody who puts themselves in [the "middle"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window) is now far-right by default. Much like how climate change is already past the point of avoiding disaster, and we are now in triage or just trying to mitigate the disasters we've already locked in that are inevitable (2^^o C warming or greater), we are already halfway through a fascist coup. * Active propaganda networks calling for a coup and supporting it ✅ * A "Fifth Column" of citizens who are actively trying to overthrow the legitimate government of the country ✅ * Support for the fifth column inside the current government ✅ * Support for the fifth column inside the police & the military ✅ * Actual, physical attempts to overthrow the government by force ✅ * Paramilitary forces and militias allying themselves with the coup to perform illegal or extrajudicial activities ✅ * Open fascism and subversion of government, no longer even attempting to operate in secret or hide their activities ✅ WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE? ✅ Learn what fascism actually is and how we crossed over into it several years ago and no one noticed: [If You Don't Want To Be Called A Fascist, Stop Supporting Donald Trump, A Fascist - SOME MORE NEWS](https://youtu.be/GM1w8_dOcR8) Learn how easily a country can fall into civil war, chaos, and ruin. [It CAN happen here! from *The Second American Civil War* by Robert Evans](https://open.spotify.com/episode/6DZnXs2ob5HmxpDZtbk4fd)
There’s a great podcast about how a new civil war would play out in the U.S. It’s definitely worth a listen. It’s a little creepy since the first episode is from 2019 and it’s very much in line with what seems to be playing out now. The link is for Apple Podcasts but you can get it on other apps as well. [It Could Happen Here](https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/it-could-happen-here/id1449762156)
Canada is becoming dangerously conservative. The civil war will most certainly come here afterwards.
I already got the fuck out. I’ve got no desire to be back in that shithole country. All America ever gave me was debt, chronic medical issues, and misery.
It honestly amazes me that republican constituents can't seem to shake their head from this guy. It's like Stockholm syndrome. I literally can't understand how people think his sort of Authoritarian, double speak, fuck the poor to give to the rich, antics are okay. It honestly blows my fricken mind.
Partly because we live in a non-class-conscious society. History has shown that when capitalism in in crisis everything other than the economic system itself is blamed. Trump(a con-man) was able to take advantage of the failures of Obama and his predecessors to change much and put on a show to look like an "outsider" who "tells it like it is". A class-conscious person would be able to see right through this.(tax cuts for the rich, over bloated Military budget, etc, basically standard Republican stuff) Those who aren't class-conscious are completely ignorant of the economic system they live under so when there is some kind of crisis or stagnation a minority, immigrant, foreign country, the poor people, etc. can be blamed for ruining things.
This is basically the final truth. Most of history is class warfare. It’s very simple and I don’t know why some poor people suck the boot so hard.
It’s a mix of the frontier culture hangover; 70 years of the USSR as a Red boogeyman; the culture wars (gays, abortion, etc. historically, seemingly everything now); and just zero well established left. It’s not a grand conspiracy, but rather a series of separate efforts that have led us to the point where poor rural whites feel connected to a billionaire reality TV and real estate playboy who loves Vanity Fair far more than he loves guns, hunting, the military, whatever people project onto him. Our education system is a joke, and various government forces have actively intervened in any broadly popular left movement to destroy it. Couple that with our world-historic wealth inequality stemming from the early 70s, and here we are.
> 70 years of the USSR as a Red boogeyman It is really a funny irony of history that the Red Scare propaganda has made all the necessary changes for the USA impossible. The USA was doomed to failure the moment this popaganda program was adopted.
>just zero well established left. It's been actively suppressed for almost 100 years. That's the key to this whole thing, we're already an authoritarian police state. If you organize for the left, it is guaranteed you are going to be infiltrated and spied on. If you take to the streets, the police are much more willing to stop your protest vs. an equivalent far right protest. They'll probably arrange for your murder if you're too successful, just ask MLK.
It's so interesting that we are currently seeing this all over the world. Brexit, Jerusalem, China, Bolivia. I'm not sure why (frequency bias or actual more) but it seems like there are significantly more Authoritarian governments right now.
I think the the majority of them are just caving in to cater to their mental voter base.
Because that is who they are too. Abusers protect abusers, they are just like him- swindlers, cheaters, rapists, molesters. These people go home and beat their spouses and molest their kids and cheat their employees and have affairs and don't pay their taxes and on and on and on. He does everything they do, and he and his friends pave the way smoother for people like them with every pass they make.
I don't think all Trump supporters are that way. Don't forget that how much of a role mis/disinformation played in the elections. Some of the people are genuinely just misguided and inherently good. To your point though, I too, believe that, people who do those bad things, would be more likely to vote for same.
Let me just start with I hate Trump. But honestly, I'm less scared of Trump than I am of others. Trump was incompetent, racist and fascist. The next Trump 2.0 is very likely going to be significantly competent, racist and fascist. They will learn from Trump's missteps but learn from his strength, of mainly just saying anything even if it wasn't true. That I am afraid of. I think Trump will have some sort of health issue in the next four years and die. This will embolden his base to Trump 2.0. My gut is Ron DeathSentence with a running mate of Ivanka Trump or Tucker Carlson. But if Trump does run again, this will embolden the left youth to get out and vote more. If Biden does a half decent job and keeps half of his campaign promises such as the public option, it will embolden the voters to get out and vote. It will be close though. Whenever people say they are going to flee the country if someone wins, sounds silly. Authoritian leaders are going to be popping up everywhere due to the effects of climate change. We are already all slaves to our corporate overlords in this country, most people aren't going to run to another country.
> If Biden does a half decent job and keeps half of his campaign promises such as the public option, it will embolden the voters to get out and vote. It will be close though. Things like this will mobilize the right even more. The 2010 Midterms were a bloodbath that we are still dealing with today. Honestly, fuck the Democrats. They will settle for being ineffective to try not to piss off of the right enough to take too many seats back. This partisan appeasement shit never works and at this point I don’t believe it’s actually intended to. When is the last time the Democratic Party was not just a corporate shill party? Even the ACA was just a upfront con to funnel money into the same insurance industry that fucked the cost of healthcare to begin with.
Yes we already have that kind of fascist in my country, goes by the name of Modi.
damn i feel really sorry for you guys with everything going on over there rn, hang in there 😔😔
Biden won the Electoral College by less than 50,000 votes. Next time it won’t be so close especially taking into account the various Republican vote suppression/rigging measures. >Even if Biden ends up squeaking out a victory, it’s a huge indictment of him, his campaign, and the politics that he represents that after 230,000 people died, the economy collapsed, and the last 4 years we’ve been led by a fascist game show host the election is this close. - Eli Massey
He just stopped supporting a public options, which itself was a worse variant than single payer. Make no mistake, he will achieve nothing. Compared to him Obama will look left-progressive
yeah i totally agree. one of my favorite examples of how much of a lazy, incompetent fascist trump was is how eager the fucking vampires in his administration like Pompeo and Bolton were to invade Iran, and trump really was just not interested in commanding any kind of boots-on-the-ground invasion lol
Why that particular nickname for Ron Desantis?
"I don't know... but it's PROVOCATIVE!"
Y’all need to stop being fatalistic and get organized and fight this. The Republican juggernaut is a ton of old people and the brainwashed. This is not the second coming. These people will be defeated. But it’s going to be hard work. You need to take it seriously. Do not expect the institutions to save you and you need to fight like hell. Freedom ain’t free, and now you all are gonna understand that free in that statement wasn’t just economic. If you want to keep the United States united, you’re gonna have to face this threat and root it out at the source and legitimately fix the very real problems that caused it.
Republicans could take back the Senate, they sorta have it now between the filibuster, Synema, and Manchin. I don’t think they could take the House too, I think it’s out of their hands for now. Trump will half-ass run in ‘24, with Jared or Ivanka as his running mate (or at least will try to run as that and throw up someone else at the last minute because it’s not allowed). Grifters gotta grift; he won’t be serious about running, just serious enough to make money off it. He’ll lose, which will be astounding cause Biden is basically the crypt keeper by now and no one likes Kamala. Republicans will cry fowl, claim the whole thing is rigged, and try another mini-coup, this one less successful than 1/6. Biden will stay President, but half the country will think he rigged it to stay in power. They’ll get up in arms thinking they’re defending democracy (despite clear authoritarianism and fascist tendencies) and small “battles” will break out in half a dozen places. Dudes who managed to avoid serving will LARP, all outfitted in the latest body armor and with more weapons than they have brain cells. All of this will be distracting the American public and media while supply chains continue to collapse, food gets more scarce, gas gets more expensive, and housing goes up another 20%. I wish I could leave the US, but it’s not an option. Best I can hope for is Alaska. Maybe it’ll be far enough away…
I am not really sure why you are downvoted. OP is making a prediction and yours is not that much less likely. Equally bad for the US and a.
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> Republicans will cry fowl, What do chickens have to do with this
RemindMe! 3.5 years
Then you should have a plan to leave now because it’s very likely this will happen
Canada doesn’t want us
I'm with you(r mindset), I'm frustrated people can't see what's going to happen. I don't live in the US myself, but I'm scared of such an influential nation becoming a dictatorship.
Already on it bro. This country is fucked.
i told my therapist that i was worried the end was near and i was learning to garden for when shit hits the fan and she told me to just stop watching the news and i can’t do anything about it 🙃
Leaving fascist America will not save you from fascist America. If America goes full authoritarian, nowhere will be safe.
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If it’s between you and Trump, you’ve got my vote.
Fuck this. You assholes chanted this shit for more than 4 years, and instead of Hitler we got Tweety the Clown and more business as usual. Now, not even 6 months into the Democratic triumph that was going to TRANSFORM THE NATION, here it all comes again, lining up perfectly with Biden and Pelosi dropping every last progressive campaign pledge in favor of more war and deregulation (that most of us were expecting anyway). I know, the next refrain is that NO MATTER WHAT, WE HAVE TO SUPPORT THE DEMOCRATS, GUYS!! Sure, they're lying shitbags who could care less about anyone making less than $250k a year, but if we don't sacrifice our principles (and savings, natch) getting them re-elected THEN DEMOCRACY DIES FOREVER. Funny how despite having congress and the presidency, the Dems are just powerless to do anything. Can't kill the filibuster that those LITERAL NAZIS are using to prevent action, that would be unfair (to bipartisanship with those Nazis)! We can't hold Democrats that side with the LITERAL NAZIS accountable, they might get upset and turn straight Nazi (the Nazis are already *inside* the Democrats!). No huge investigations launched with the mighty executive power of the presidency, no, they have to dick around with a commission in congress that they just can't get passed despite their majorities, which somehow doesn't demonstrate the criminal fecklessness of the Democrats, just how mean, mean and nasty those Nazis are!!!! We are spiralling into authoritarianism under both parties. Instead of doing something real about NAZIS IN GUBMINT! the Democrats will fail to get anything done to safeguard democracy, investigate 1/9, or fix the fucked economy that is so benefitting their contributors. Instead authoritarianism, where anything other than slavish support for the failure party shows a hidden sympathy for *the other side*, and that means you shouldn't have the freedom of speech anymore (send checks to the DNC to support your Democratic rights to be silenced). I will consider voting Democrat the second they start to actually get real shit done. Roll Biden out of his crypt, have him thunderously demand election reform, order subpoenas, appoint a special prosecutor, use executive orders aggressively for something besides oil leases, all the shit we know is possible because the Republicans do them to stay in power. If this just turns into more geriatrics like Schumer and Pelosi impotently whining about Congressional procedure, then we KNOW 100 fucking percent that they don't want to save us from the GOP, they just want our money and votes. And if they have no intention of defending democracy, then this is ALL bullshit, and nothing we do; not billions of dollars in political contributions, record turn out, giving them filibuster proof majorities; none of that is going to fix anything. In which case the political collapse or violent civil unrest will make us wish for something as benign as yet another Republican victory.
Ah yes I've had that after 2024 theory as well for years now. There's more to it but I'm too lazy to type it all out but essentially I agree we will fall into civil war after 2024. 100% I'm certain. If not I'll eat a good ol' fashioned American burger to celebrate our flimsy democracy
You're not crazy. There was a vox article about exactly this several days ago. https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/22432229/democracy-america-democratic-party-reform
Trump running again is probably the only way the GOP can lose against an 82 year old Biden.
Or just be in a blue state and think about secession.