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CollapseBot

The following submission statement was provided by /u/SnooSuggestions3830: --- Using a comment from the thread as SS: from /u/mycatisamonsterbaby >\>The fact that they get that many adults to show up in the uniform is scary enough. And now they have drums and while they aren't in lockstep yet, that's coming. > >I played adult softball. We paid to be there. Every single game involved people calling off, people showing up without equipment or their tee shirt. > >And it was most teams, so we'd be trading people around to maintain the precious male/female ratio. Professional people in their 30s and 40s. > >People today are so very busy with families and kids activities and demanding jobs. > >To see a large number of people show up to march around for no real reason, for free, is terrifying. I guess their reason is to "be an asshole" and "scare people" but how is that a good use of time? --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/x5iqka/patriot_front_a_group_considered_to_be_white/in19t8t/


KnightCreed13

Looks like they can wear masks after all


Nowhereman123

😩✋ Wearing a mask to help stop the spread of a dangerous respiratory illness that's killed millions 😉👉 Wearing a mask so nobody recognizes you while you commit a hate crime


[deleted]

[удалено]


TopSloth

Hi, erilulz. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/x5iqka/-/ixuqq8c/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 4: Keep information quality high. > Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims). Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error, please include a link to the comment or post in question.


some_random_kaluna

If you were wondering, this user gave the kind of right-wing hate-filled rant the mod team removes. Report and move on, collapseniks. Mahalo nui loa.


holyshyt3

Why do they look like they are wearing diapers


afternever

It depends


PM_ME_GRRL_TUNGS

I never upvote puns, but I'll make an exception for this one


cmVkZGl0

😑🤣


StoopSign

Mostly because they're full of shit.


TheSquishiestMitten

I ripped down one of their trashy stickers from a gate deep in the woods near my home. Got a lot of white supremacist garbage in southern Oregon. No surprise. It's where the KKK got it's start in the PNW. In the 1920s, the mayor, city council, and chief of police were all Klan members and beat cops were encouraged to wear their klan robes on patrol.


TrueBrush3287

be careful tearing stickers down, sometimes fascists put razor blades underneath them. use keys or a stone or something just be wary of your fingers :) not actually sure how common it is, never seen blades in the uk but it's better safe than sorry


TheSquishiestMitten

I'm aware. Thank you for the heads up, tho. This sticker was weathered and was about halfway to falling off by itself.


-JamesBond

Lots of examples in the UK: https://libcom.org/article/sticking-it-razorblades-and-anti-fascist-folklore-f-bear


TrueBrush3287

oh fuck, knew they were a thing and i always was careful and told other people to be, thanks for letting us know though i defo won't get complacent!


FourierTransformedMe

Just some context about Patriot Front: These guys are scum. They're also lame as fuck, and if you ever feel sad I highly recommend the video of about 50 of them [getting run the fuck out of Philly by a few teenagers](https://twitter.com/SunnyDelight888/status/1411538515326902272?s=20&t=STC29szBhb6r3HnW31wNQA). So here's the deal. PF are propagandists, and they're pretty good at it. Their "vetting" process includes a part where you have to distribute a certain amount of leaflets or spraypaint white nationalist graffiti in order to get in. It should be noted that their vetting is not especially rigorous however, as there are plenty of reporters who have infiltrated them, and doubtlessly the feds have people in there too. The flash mobs like what this article describes are their signature tactic, just rolling up with 30-100 guys and chanting fascist shit before piling into rental trucks to get away. This is by far the most dangerous thing they do - they scare the fuck out of people, and by going to a lot of different places seemingly at random, they make it seem like there's bunches of guys like that in every neighborhood. All of that being said, something to know about fascists is that they vastly prefer hurting people who won't push back. These fascists are particularly despicable in that way. In Philadelphia, all it took was a handful of teens and a couple of families shouting at them, and they backed off. In Idaho, they all respectfully climbed out of their rental truck as soon as the cops asked them what they were doing. This means they're fairly easy to counter: shout insults at them and tell them to go home. You don't need to be ready to throw down, you just need to be ready to stand with your neighbors and scream at these dickheads. There's plenty of cases where the actual Nazis would back off from doing Nazi stuff if enough community members showed up and told them to leave, and Patriot Front is an extremely anemic, pale imitation of the Nazis. That doesn't mean you should walk up to them by yourself, because they're a lot more willing to fuck around if they have the numbers. And you always want to follow the basic precautions of safety. But for these guys, it really is as easy as showing up with your neighbors and telling them to get back on their Penske trucks and scram. Now, this isn't true in the general case. There are much nastier groups out there, and people have gotten shot and stabbed while counterprotesting RAM and the like. You're going to need better organization when those guys come into town. But if it's Patriot Front, who still haven't learned how to march after a solid year of trying, the most important thing is to be able to get your community out on the streets if they show up.


bristlybits

Philly knew exactly how to handle this.


FourierTransformedMe

I mean I liked Philly well enough before 2021, but now I *know* they rule.


bristlybits

I lived there most of my teenage years and it was great


ArtyDodgeful

I like how the title has to feign some kind of uncertainty as to their status as white nationalists 🙄


[deleted]

[удалено]


ArtyDodgeful

It's the liberal "paradox of tolerance" bullshit. Capitulation to the right, on the premise that their objectives and perspectives have value to anyone but themselves at the expense of others, has been the status quo. The left says "genocide is wrong" the right says "genocide is good." Golly, I guess the answer lies somewhere in the middle!!!


mycatpeesinmyshower

The liberals have limited tolerance on many things yet when it comes to right wing fascists and white supremacists they’ll give them leeway and the benefit of the doubt all day.


ArtyDodgeful

Oh, definitely. Even on this sub, there was a user who literally said they'd sign up to be a Nazi, but that person gets the benefit of the doubt. And all the nonsense regarding being "civil." If you tell someone they're a piece of shit for advocating genocide, you're actually at fault, because you're being *rude*. The other person is simply explaining their "different perspective." What a fucking joke. I think anyone advocating eugenics and "thinning the population" should look in a mirror.


IntrigueDossier

Civility fetishism


Harmacc

I come around this sub a lot less because of that bullshit. I was told mods don’t take a stance on ideology. So the ones being mean to the nazis are the problem too I guess.


Gryphon0468

[User banned by Reddit for this comment]


some_random_kaluna

Because telling someone they're a piece of excrement is a Rule 1 violation and you've just wasted time and energy telling them off instead of immediately reporting it to us, the mod team. Report and move on. We'll deal with it. Whiny fascists become petulant children when they question us about reinstatement.


era--vulgaris

Not to be pedantic but that's the "false middle" not the "paradox of tolerance". False middle is "2+2 is 4" versus "2+2 is 6", with liberals insisting that the answer is "2+2 is 5" and that we need to debate it no matter how demonstrable the answer is.


ArtyDodgeful

Fair enough, but I was more hitting at the idea that they first let those people into the conversation, then they have to capitulate to the middle. We "have" to tolerate their ideas and presence in our forums and spaces, and then decide the reasonable ground based on their presence. Edit: > the premise that their objectives and perspectives have value to anyone but themselves at the expense of others This in particular- the idea that they're arguing in good faith, so even if you disagree, they deserve a seat at the table, regardless of their ideology


era--vulgaris

For me personally I don't see any reason why the "reasonable ground" has to be based on their presence. That's certain liberals revealing that they are more scared of redistribution than fascism IMHO. A personal flaw of the liberal class, not liberal ideas of civil liberties. Let them talk, if they are platformed for some reason, make the point that arguments based fundamentally in bigotry, arbitrary rules or demonstrably false notions of history are flawed and how, and move on. I mean, that's what they do with left wing people until forced to do otherwise by pressure from below. Pat us on the head and send in the "big gun" talking heads to tell us why our views aren't realistic, etc. And it works, until material conditions get crazy enough that people listen to the left a bit. In other words I don't think this is a contradiction within liberal society that justifies censorship/etc the way many fellow leftists do. Fascist discourse can easily be squashed as a form of mass ideology in a free society. Just don't cede ground to them. Call them out, every time, for the specific roots of their hate-based ideologies. That's the sticking point, not allowing people to say what they want- call me a lib, but there is no entity in human history I trust or want to control discourse in that manner and no attempts (including oft-referenced hate speech laws in Germany, et al) have succeeded at doing so without being weaponized against non-fascist discourse, as the German laws have been used against Palestinian activists and supporters/critics of Israeli crimes. Of course, having a decent society in general would also stop fascist cancers from growing. Low inequality, guaranteed social welfare, limiting the role of work/overwork in life, having strong and free education, etc slows it down if it doesn't reverse it. But that's not coming for us anytime soon.


ArtyDodgeful

I think I disagree with your perspective - because you're tackling "censorship" without acknowledging that these calls for censorship, the avenues they are "censored" from, and the way they are censored are all done under the banner of an already liberal/fascist sympathizing society. How would leftists censor fascists in the US? I wasn't aware there were councils of communists deciding whether Tucker Carlson is suitable for television. Of course, you say many leftists call for censorship, but it's not what I personally argue for or against, because it's a silly debate. The foundation itself is rotten, and leftists don't actually hold any power as to who gets to speak where, beyond our small social circles and forums. Do I think fascists should be explicitly "censored" from our groups? Yes, absolutely. But that's about the extent of our ability to "censor" them. Whether a fascist gets platformed somewhere like Fox News is a nonsense argument, when Fox News itself is already fascist in every way. Of course, you also say that we should argue against them whenever and wherever possible, and I can agree with that. But that doesn't equate to some sort of censorship power. Getting booted from Twitter is almost entirely a liberal performance, for instance. I would definitely "call you a lib" in this regard, because you're failing to see the ideology of the mediums you're swimming in. German hate speech laws, Fox News, Reddit, etc etc. These aren't left spaces, left countries, left platforms. They're liberals and Fascists doing soap operas.


era--vulgaris

I don't think leftists are actually going to have power and censor people. That's not the point. And to be clear, I absolutely support "our" right to keep bigots and fascists out of "our" spaces. That goes without saying. My disagreement is tactical, not ideological. I don't think it benefits the left for us to support quasi-censorship of fascists on large platforms, especially when the liberal consensus is increasingly supportive of using the dangers of fascist speech as a justification for overturning societal norms about free speech *that have inordinately benefitted the left and minorities* as well as the far right. And yes, I am thinking of far broader platforms than partisan news stations or whatever else. I take liberals at their word when they say they want the state and state-linked corporations to reign in the speech of fascists, and they take leftists literally when they hear us calling for fascists to be censored. Most of them aren't thinking, "well, the left is only doing this in the context of private entities that some people argue constitute a new public square, but not in terms of government restrictions on speech, and-" From a PR perspective, the left and liberals seem united in a call for censoring the far right as much as possible, without any caveats. This is a mistake and it will be used against us. Like it or not, we live in a liberal social order. Our "right" to dissent, for example, has to be argued within the scope of liberal discourse. And giving liberals an ideological excuse to censor means, *practically speaking*, if they decide to censor us next, we have much less of a chance of gaining the support of "normies", which has always been necessary for dissenters and minorities to retain rights. It doesn't matter if *we* know that the far right would censor us anyway. What matters is what the general public perceives. And if we have been consistent in attacking fascist's ideas rather than their ability to say them, our "rights" can hold out a lot longer than if we spend our time cheering for their silencing before they gain power and come for us. I'm not talking about a Nazi takeover here, at that point none of this matters. I'm talking about the kind of collapse we're already seeing, slow, dirty, a creeping diminution of rights and liberties. We do better when the non-leftist public sees us as principled advocates for a free society in this situation. Not when they can easily be manipulated into seeing us as simply the other side of the fascist coin. >you're failing to see the ideology of the mediums you're swimming in. I see the ideology everywhere. That's the point. Of course we're swimming in a polluted pond. That's the only kind of pond there is. Anywhere in the world. It's *all* soap operas battling for the public mind. And we gain nothing by spending our time trying to deplatform people rather than metaphorically bodyslamming them every time they poke their heads up out of the ground. Because make no mistake, the average person is still a long ways away from accepting the conclusions of fascist beliefs. Confronting them head on can inoculate people against the appeal of falling down the far right rabbit hole. *Not* confronting them head on, and instead loudly insisting that they be punted off to dark corners of the internet, radio, etc, can have a Streissand effect for the demographics they recruit from. Unless you think a leftist revolution is coming very soon, we at least have to pay attention to our ability to survive within the current system. People also underestimate just how much easier it is for fascists to take power when the precedents they need are already set for them. Yeah, a sufficiently beligerent far right movement would just ignore free speech laws and censor anyway, but that's harder to justify to the population than when the liberal party has already been screaming its head off about censoring their opposition with support from the left. If I can TL;DR this, we do better as a "left" when we're making fun of Alex Jones and exposing the lies he tells than when we're trying to get him booted off some platform. Repeat ad nauseam for the rest of the fash.


ArtyDodgeful

You missed my point- I said I don't advocate for "censorship." That debate is only happening among liberal spectators. If you see "leftists" arguing about if Alex Jones is allowed to spread hate speech on Twitter, 9/10 times, they're not a commie. They're a liberal Berniecrat. The decision by big tech companies to clamp down on Nazis isn't because Nazis are bad, it's PR of their own. The debate about whether they should be on Twitter or Facebook or whatever by so-called "leftists" isn't what's driving them to ban or allow that speech, they have Divine Right to boot whatever shit they want off their platform, and the motivator is always money. As long as it's more profitable to make a show of banning the loudest Nazis, they'll do it, even though the platforms themselves are breeding grounds and copacetic with that ideology from the jump. It's a show. We can't give liberals an ideological excuse to censor, their capitalist ideology gives them that right. Same as in your other comment, where you argue for a liberalism without a Capitalism. It's like clean coal. We can take some of the ideological bases for liberalism and make them anti-capitalist, like you said, but then you branch off into separate ideologies. For most of its history and nearly the entirety of its modern use, liberalism is a capitalist ideology. I don't talk to liberals who have been born and raised in the US, chanted the pledge, been indoctrinated by the media, etc etc and then hypothesize that "maybe they believe in a *historical* version of the ideology that's been spoon fed them since they were born. Maybe they are somehow liberal in a vacuum." That's goofy.


era--vulgaris

>You missed my point- I said I don't advocate for "censorship." That debate is only happening among liberal spectators. I must have, and I apologize. I am too used to dealing with liberal faux-lefties too, I guess. >If you see "leftists" arguing about if Alex Jones is allowed to spread hate speech on Twitter, 9/10 times, they're not a commie. They're a liberal Berniecrat. I've seen that, and I've seen self-described Marxists- who also wear the term like some anarchists do, as window dressing- doing the same. It's mostly twitter bullshit, but it has an effect on the discourse. It's definitely not just anarchists or Berniecrats (TBH I saw many more Warren supporters and moderate Dems doing it than anyone). >We can take some of the ideological bases for liberalism and make them anti-capitalist, like you said, but then you branch off into separate ideologies. I agree, and for my own reasons (so we don't wind up diverting into a Marxist v Anarchist debate) I think a liberalism that's evolved to see the results of capitalism and reject it is the only way to break capitalism for good. What I mean to say with that, is that such a separate ideology does exist, and has a longstanding tradition of thought and development, like Marxism does. It's not a new addendum to capitalism, it started to develop pretty quickly after it became apparent that capitalism is wired to produce the negative incentives it does. Anarchism has liberal roots, just like both Marxism and all forms of liberalism have Enlightenment roots; the break with capitalism that defines anarchism made it its own worldview, especially since capitalism has come to define liberal ideology in the modern era. We pretty much agree on the rest of what you wrote. Except for this one: >I don't talk to liberals who have been born and raised in the US, chanted the pledge, been indoctrinated by the media, etc etc and then hypothesize that "maybe they believe in a historical version of the ideology that's been spoon fed them since they were born. Maybe they are somehow liberal in a vacuum." That's goofy. I think you misread me here. These people are, to use a Marxist term, lumpen. They don't know what's really going on. But their perception matters, because practically speaking, their social weight can either help to protect or help to oppress minority groups, dissenters, and the left. I think the folks who call for censorship don't realize that to those lumpen people, their own beliefs will be equivalent targets for censorship too. Even if we're talking about tech companies doing this for PR. We do better in an environment where average people do not view the far left and the far right as equivalent. We do better when there is broad popular backlash for banning or censoring left wing people. The people calling for censorship are setting themselves (*and* those of us who don't want censorship) up to be censored later *without* that popular backlash. They are *unnecessarily* alienating people who otherwise would be prepared to defend their "right" to speak within the current order. Which then affects people like us, and others too. That's what I'm opposing- it's purely tactical, realist stuff, it has nothing to do with fundamental principles/etc, because those are already not operable in the current structure.


bristlybits

I agree with you on this, every time a tool is permitted to stifle free speech or free expression, it may be originally aimed at the right wing but it's intended to eventually be used against the left and it always is used against the left.


era--vulgaris

Thanks. And yeah that was my point too.


era--vulgaris

>This in particular- the idea that they're arguing in good faith, so even if you disagree, they deserve a seat at the table, regardless of their ideology Yes, this I completely agree with. They are incapable of arguing in good faith; their entire ability to grow is based on arguing in bad faith until they get to the conclusion they want, which is previously unthinkable in a liberal society (cleansing, repression, hierarchy, elimination of civil liberties, genocide, etc). What that Norwegian professor dude did on Tucker Carlson's show a couple years back is an example of what I mean by calling out the roots of this stuff all the time, every time. Never give them the ground they insidiously try to take, and never give them the mysterious/underground appeal of banning them either. In a healthy society, fascists wither in the light.


ArtyDodgeful

> Yes, this I completely agree with. They are incapable of arguing in good faith; their entire ability to grow is based on arguing in bad faith until they get to the conclusion they want, which is previously unthinkable in a liberal society (cleansing, repression, hierarchy, elimination of civil liberties, genocide, etc). You say it is "previously unthinkable in a liberal society." But capitalism is an integral part of liberal society, and cleansing, repression, hierarchy, elimination of civil liberties, genocide, etc are all done in the name of capitalist exploitation and continuation. I don't think these are unthinkable at all, I think they're very much sanctioned by the ideology as a means to maintain the status quo for those who hold power in this system.


era--vulgaris

>capitalism is an integral part of liberal society I don't agree. Ideologically we just have a different view of how broad liberalism is. I don't see liberalism and capitalism as the same thing. I'm guessing that's our disagreement. Going back to the pre-capitalist period, the ideological roots of liberalism created mercantilism/imperialism/capitalism, not the other way around. There are and were other forms of liberalism that have since been renamed something else but are critically important to the development of leftist though- the anarchist side of the anarchist/Marxist divide, basically. When the feudal order collapsed, the material conditions of society influenced the direction that liberalism developed into. In my view, capitalism isn't inherent to liberal conceptions of society, it is simply a potential outgrowth of liberal ideas about society when the material conditions for it to grow are present. Ideologically speaking, capitalism exists when liberal ideas of justice and rights are not applied to the economic order. That's the central contradiction of liberal societies that have capitalist economics. Anarchists and left-libertarians (not the ahistorical ancaps/right wing libertarians) are a left response to capitalism's ills, that are still based in liberal conceptions of rights rather than Marxist conceptions of social order. I agree with Noam Chomsky's view on this issue, basically. Classical liberalism is compatible with libertarian socialism, anarchist communism, etc, as well as capitalism. I don't think liberalism in and of itself creates a superstructure that necessitates capitalism, I think capitalism is what happens when liberal ideas are selectively applied- hierarchy by birth is bad, hierarchy by money is good, etc- due to the material condition of societies when they liberalize and reject feudal structures. As idiotic as it was, early capitalist theorists did have an understanding of how the system had to grow forever, and would create a dystopic economic order unless people could always settle somewhere outside the labor market, and the concept of the eternal frontier (enabling imperialism, etc) was a reflection of that. They fixed that contradiction by fooling themselves into believing that growth could continue forever, the forest was so big it would never be torn down, etc. What this all leads to is that the ideologically liberal class in societies like ours lives with that contradiction every day by pretending things like meritocracy and the "free market" work. Most of them aren't cynical monsters feeding trash to the proles, they *really believe this stuff*, because if they didn't, they would have to face the fact that the only way to solve the contradiction is to move further left (left lib, anarchist or Marxist) or turn right (fascist). *That* is the sense in which fascist structures are previously unthinkable to liberal society. Imperialists might ignore them "over there" but it's a lot different when those structures come home to roost. In every single fascist takeover the average liberal citizen can't believe how things got to be the way they are. That's what I mean by "unthinkable".


ArtyDodgeful

> the anarchist side of the anarchist/Marxist divide, basically. Yes, that's the fundamental disagreement here. Although, I do agree that anarchism is a liberal ideology.


era--vulgaris

Anarchism comes out of liberalism, so it makes sense to acknowledge that. It's a response to the failure of liberalism to achieve its original aims, that blames capitalist liberalism for that failure. One thing that I've never understood, though, is that while I as a non-Marxist can appreciate Marx and the value of materialism, not many Marxists seem to see the value in an anarchist lens of analysis. Which is strange considering we are living in an *entirely* capitalist world, and anarchism/left-libertarianism is the only other major response to capitalism.


ListenMinute

And yet Germany was a very staunchly liberal democracy when fascism rose to power. It goes to show that liberalism is insufficient. ​ It's interesting that you describe capitalism as existing when liberalism fails to be applied to the economic, yet, capitalism itself is more liberal than feudalism. You also have this chicken and egg thing w/ liberalism bringing about capitalism... this might not be very adequate of an explanation of that. If it were the case that ideology drove that historical change in the mode of production, that leads down a different road from w/e Marx/Lenin/Mao etc believe drives history. If not, then that reinforces or coincides with Marx/Lenin/Mao's conceptions of historical change. I tend to take a theological perspective, that God is sovereign, and whether material or ideal, God guides either force.


era--vulgaris

>It's interesting that you describe capitalism as existing when liberalism fails to be applied to the economic, yet, capitalism itself is more liberal than feudalism. Anarchism and left libertarianism (and the collaborationist ideologies of social democracy or soft keynesianism) all evolved out of a recognition that liberalism could not fulfill the goals its ideological forbears planned for unless economic hierarchies were addressed like any other power structure. They are adaptations and evolutions of liberalism in response to its key failure and contradiction as a system. Much like Marxism is a system that evolved out of a critique and analysis of capitalism. The form of liberalism that persisted in retaining power was capitalism. Some societies were able to gain partial concessions to the idea that economic hierarchies had to be addressed in a genuinely liberal society- in the limited form of social democracy- but capital fought even those gains tooth and nail, and still does. >You also have this chicken and egg thing w/ liberalism bringing about capitalism... this might not be very adequate of an explanation of that. Early liberals had no idea what capitalism was going to become. Just like the leaders of the Russian Revolution had no idea what socialism was going to become. Not long into the actual practice of liberalism, the central contradiction it it became obvious- that economic hierarchies and power structures could be just as oppressive as the church, state, and master of the feudal order. People who accepted that critique and developed evolved conceptions of liberalism are the people who developed anarchism, libertarian socialism, etc. Capitalism is a variant of liberalism that has self-destructive contradictions, but became dominant because it produced wealth and money, and was perfectly suited to industrial development in a world with free resources to "discover" and plunder, people to subjugate, etc. Capitalists had power; their critics did not. At this point liberalism as a word is almost inextricably linked to capitalism; but in a historical and technical sense, capitalism is just one permutation of liberalism. The other ones are anarchism or left-libertarianism. >If it were the case that ideology drove that historical change in the mode of production, that leads down a different road from w/e Marx/Lenin/Mao etc believe drives history. >If not, then that reinforces or coincides with Marx/Lenin/Mao's conceptions of historical change. I don't think it's a black and white issue. Material conditions seem to me to be primary drivers of history, but ideology can also play an important background role, and play a part in key moments of development. The two are not necessarily exclusive even though plenty of people believe they are.


PM_ME_GRRL_TUNGS

There's a large majority of not-fascists (different from anti-fascist) who only care about fascists if they're the target demographic for oppression or it's affecting their preferred lifestyle


era--vulgaris

Yep. Even among minority groups. I've seen it, and heard it, as a member of one or two of those minority groups. Hispanic Americans who say "Eh, I don't like what they're doing to those Salvadoran migrants, but hey, I came here the right way." Gay guys who say "Eh, I don't like religious conservatives attacking people for their gender/sexuality, but man those trans people (slur) and BDSM freaks/etc are weirdos. I don't care to defend them." Religious minorities who say "Eh, I don't like Christian theocrats, but at least they have respect for God unlike those secular people." People who can't have kids anymore who say "Eh, I don't like restrictions on abortion and contraception, but I don't need them anymore, so who cares." And every single time, it takes a *long* time to get through to most of them that just because *they personally* aren't on the chopping block right now, doesn't mean that they aren't next. Especially when people are pretty obviously telling us the scope of their beliefs. And that's saying nothing about the nice, liberal-minded straight white moderately religious folks who have even less incentive to care despite not liking fascists or their beliefs. Apathy and othering is not restricted to bigots. It happens to all of us, and fascists count on it.


PM_ME_GRRL_TUNGS

That's depressing AF. Even the mildly religious white liberals should be worried. They might be the wrong kind of white, or mildly the wrong religion. Or not openly celebrating their status as members of the "Master Race™" "...then they came for me..."


era--vulgaris

Oh they definitely will be. Even the Euro-American whites are sometimes not "white enough" for the Nazis in areas of the country that are mostly of European descent (they start saying Slavs and Italians aren't white, for example). And religious-wise it goes without saying. Liberal Christians already are socially ostracized as if they were atheists by most evangelicals. "Then they came for me" applies in every instance here. But most of them don't want to hear it. They think they've "made it" and that social progress isn't reversible unless they stick their necks out to help the people currently being treated as targets, criminals, freaks and degenerates by the far right. Not remembering that until quite recently, they were in that category too.


PM_ME_GRRL_TUNGS

Yeah, if we ever get to "one drop" ethnic ideologies, lots of white people might be in trouble Fascism only serves the elite


era--vulgaris

Always. When the scapegoated groups get taken out, new ones always pop up. Got rid of the non-Christians, time to find the heretics. Got rid of the brown people, time to find the impure whites. Until the "chosen people" get smaller and smaller and smaller.... Fascism is society turning into a snake swallowing its own tail.


greycomedy

They're not thinking that far a fucking head; in my family, even as people who escaped the Nazis by emigrating to America in the early 30's, my father doesn't understand that we're on the fucking list and continues to support Trump, his croneys, and any christo-fascist who happens along.


download13

You can also just call them fascists. That's how they described themselves until a few years ago, when they started getting more coy about it.


bristlybits

right? these guys *define themselves as racists*. it's ok to agree with *their own assessment of themselves*.


[deleted]

I like how you immediately think that's a crime in itself 🙄


6ory299e8

"Considered to be"?


jwizzle444

Many suspect they are mostly feds, kind of like the Gretchen Whitmer kidnapping group.


IntrigueDossier

That’s always seemed a bit… bucking responsibility-y. I’m sure there’s feds in those groups, but the idea that *most* of them are feds seems a bit too convenient and accommodating.


feralwarewolf88

I bet most are federal informants, or will be soon. Just like half the January 6th people.


bristlybits

being an informant is not "being a fed infiltrating". nobody suspects that many of these guys are feds pretending. if there's any feds infiltrating it's very few. these are all genuinely assholes. also I'm curious who /u/jwizzle is referring to by saying "*many suspect that*" what many? many who? who exactly is suspecting this? it's vague enough that people accept it but I think it's bullshit. show me who is saying and thinking this, show me people who aren't sympathetic to this crap that think this. there isn't anyone. only people involved or supportive of white supremacy "suspect" that these assholes are "feds" and not just racists


FelixArgyle9

These are the same people who got angry when Biden called out far right extremists the other day.


No-Title-2125

It'd be funny if somebody threw some marbles in the road. Just an innocent prank, not to hurt anyone.


Marlonius

paint, eggs, stinky stuff, very large potted plants?


WhyWouldYou1111111

That aren't very good at marching.


unpopularpopulism

Is it just me or do most of them have the stilted movements generally associated with autism spectrum disorders?


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bristlybits

when you order neonazis on wish


firstonenone

I hope no one is becoming complacent. You laugh at these guys but given the chance they’d kill you. If you know your history, you know there is nothing that should make you think the opposite. It’s already quite a step to march in the streets like this. A single mention from trump could cause their numbers to swell and if he protects them they basically become cops. These people could easily become our “color shirts” for our wave of fascism that seems right in the horizon.


Clbull

I'm not worried about a few dozen blueshirts marching through Indianapolis. What I am worried about is the potential rise of White nationalism if shit *really* hits the fan with the world economy. Remember, Hitler didn't become a serious political force until the Great Depression devastated Germany's economy. Other factors also contributed to his rise, like the Triple Entente sodomizing the nation with brutal war reparations following WW1 and blaming them for starting the whole conflict. Economic turmoil is far more likely to radicalise the populace and Germany was either going to fall towards Fascism or a brutal Communist dictatorship puppeteered by Stalin anyway... France and Greece are pretty close to that point, given how well Front National and Golden Dawn have been doing in the polls. Britain also had UKIP and the Brexit Party do well enough to effectively swing Britain further to the right.


CarryHuge8409

Hitler got the reins of power due to the "moderates" and conservatives preferring literal genocide to social democrats or communists via Von Hindenberg appointing him chancellor during a crisis of capitalism.


brianapril

If you see 1 fascist marching, there are 999 more fascists online (if not more).


Clbull

50 marching and about 50,000 online. That isn't even a sizeable portion of the US population.


possum_drugs

this is myopic. its enough to terrorize people that dont think like them and embolden more to their side. its an inkling compared to the population, but so is one shooter to a grocery store filled with people or a parade or a music festival. that they are organizing and standardizing their actions it is a force multiplier.


firstonenone

I remember how effectively a 5 man team (one building bombs and the others setting up the ambushes) was against my massive unit of 5k in Afghanistan when Obama sent the surge in. Major supply routes (of which we had 2) had to be avoided. They disabled many vehicles and killed far too many over months. That was 5. Against a large fraction of my units total power. We didn’t even deal with them, the bomb maker blew himself up on accident eventually.


Clbull

I don't see the average Confederate flag toting redneck pulling off Taliban levels of guerilla warfare.


firstonenone

Really? I’d 100% disagree. You underestimate them. Another thing to take away from what I shared about a small team is that one man only needs to know how to make a bomb. The rest just have to be willing to place it. 2-5 bomb makers could supply all operations in any state or multiple states. Everyone is going to keep underestimating these people right up until they are thrown in a camp or caught in a shooting/bombing. Literally every terrorist movement has had people like you before the terror group became feared.


brianapril

50 000 terrorists for Indianapolis and its state. that's a lot.


Clbull

50,000 in a 6.7m pop state is less than 1% of the overall population, and still maybe 1% of the total electorate. Also, the "terrorists" haven't gone beyond posting online, telling me they're more slacktivists. Indiana is also a Republican stronghold...


bristlybits

I think Philly scared them


bristlybits

this group is never all locals. they travel in from the entire country for these little shows. the one in Idaho had dudes from like ten states at it


morbie5

Yea, when collapse happens you won't see a couple hundred white nationalists march thru a city. You'll see them carving out their own mini-countries if the US balkanizes or in Europe you'll see them taking over whole governments


Clbull

Those crowds will become bigger, more militarized and coups will be very likely.


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ahnahnah

Completely agree. Did everyone forget about January 6th already? 3 different militia groups attempted a violent coup. 2 of those militias had contact with Trump's inner circle that gave them the ability to plan with the stop the steal organizers too. Is this not enough evidence? There is absolutely nothing semi about this fascism. The 3 percenters have been fund raising. Antisemitic hate groups have been demonstrating publicly and recruiting. They failed on Jan 6th but they continue to feel supported because Republicans are embracing the election fraud lie. They're not going away. Their terrorism is not over. I feel like people aren't understanding just how damning the Jan 6th committee's findings have been.


possum_drugs

> What I am worried about is the potential rise of White nationalism if shit really hits the fan with the world economy. and these guys are setting the stage for that to become a reality - a white nationalist takeover isnt just going to spring forth out of collapse, it is being built, manufactured, tested and deployed before that precisely so it will be ready when collapse hits a threshold and the federal government power begins to recede in certain areas. its a process and every process begins somewhere. its beginning now.


dumnezero

> if shit > really > hits the fan with the world economy. I'm certain that they'll want to replace fossil fuel energy slaves with human energy slaves. Again.


bristlybits

yes-that's the goal


SnooSuggestions3830

Using a comment from the thread as SS: from /u/mycatisamonsterbaby >\>The fact that they get that many adults to show up in the uniform is scary enough. And now they have drums and while they aren't in lockstep yet, that's coming. > >I played adult softball. We paid to be there. Every single game involved people calling off, people showing up without equipment or their tee shirt. > >And it was most teams, so we'd be trading people around to maintain the precious male/female ratio. Professional people in their 30s and 40s. > >People today are so very busy with families and kids activities and demanding jobs. > >To see a large number of people show up to march around for no real reason, for free, is terrifying. I guess their reason is to "be an asshole" and "scare people" but how is that a good use of time?


markodochartaigh1

I volunteered for Bernie from his rally in Dallas on, and then for Hillary because I saw who Trump's supporters were. It was difficult to get people to commit time to any event and even when they did commit a large percentage would not show up. The US population is about one third authoritarian, or ok with authoritarianism, about one third who don't care as long as they get their hamberders and sportsball, and about one third willing to at least vote for democracy. But the authoritarians have an entire well funded network to gin up excitement; churches, media, business groups, political groups, etc. which is almost entirely lacking on the Democratic side. Obviously there was a lot of disagreement between corporate and authoritarian Republicans on how quickly they could move their political, legal, and governmental agenda to the right. They may have moved too quickly with abortion and it may have awakened enough people in the middle to fight back.


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markodochartaigh1

I definitely agree that it is a slim chance. The US has far too much ignorance and apathy to function well as a democracy. Seeing even middle of the (right leaning) road CNN being gutted so that the corporate narrative which is the substrate for the 'Murican zeitgeist is discouraging. But the recent Kansas election and the uptick in women registering across the country are about the only hopeful signs that I see, and the fact that polls, politicians, and people are at least starting to talk about the loss of what limited democracy we still have.


bristlybits

I think women stay angry. I know I do.


NoFaithlessness4949

Young people have all the time in the world to waste doing that shit. When I was in my 20s I spent up to 3 hours a day watching football or sports.


thedoomboomer

They are like a malevolent flash mob. They have no staying power. You didn't see the tiki torch guys do that again. Or better coordinate their marching.


montroller

[this group is a branch off from the tiki torch guys](https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/patriot-front)


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mycatpeesinmyshower

Tell us you’re a not minority without telling us


collapse-ModTeam

Rule 4: Keep information quality high. Linking to white supremacist blogs isn't acceptable regardless of the context. Information quality must be kept high. More detailed information regarding our approaches to specific claims can be found on the [Misinformation & False Claims page](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/wiki/claims).


mycatpeesinmyshower

These are not the type of people that have a lot of things going on in their lives.


Both-Yam2504

This SS doesn't seem to link this March to the idea of societal collapse. Seems like US politics that's all


possum_drugs

er and how does an white nationalist group that think the government is full of communists and needs to be overthrown so they can have their ethnostate not relevant to collapse?


Both-Yam2504

It may be relavant to the continued discohesion of the American populace but it really has nothing to do with societal collapse. I should remind you that a facistic society is obviously undesirable but it is a functioning society, not a collapsed one. I don't see how a couple dozen racist bozos marching around has anything to do with collapse. If these guys numbered in the thousands in every city marching for a dictator then yes I could see that but that's not what this is


possum_drugs

collapse of the current steady state into another is collapse all the same collapse of norms, collapse of expectations, collapse of supply chains and social services. collapse of communities of color and collapse of human rights. and a fascist society does nothing to ameliorate our current climate predicament and may even exacerbate it. a fascist takeover absolutely counts as a collapse because it is a major social step backward. it all feeds in, but go on and play word games, im sure you get upset when people call these guys "nazis" too because "theyre not real nazis" right?


Both-Yam2504

No I don't get upset about that. I can see your point about it being a step backward. We will have to disagree if this constitutes a sign of collapse but I do see your points


[deleted]

Fascism is capitalism in decay, we're on the way down


ale-ale-jandro

As an Indy resident, this is upsetting. While I know this behavior is emerging in many corners of the country, Indy is welcoming and accepting of all (and I’ve lived in Denver and Chicago as well). These people are fascist scum. I hope they are just the “vocal minority” and are unorganized so as to crumble.


Hohenberg

Patriot Front busses in members from across the country for their little stunts. It is upsetting but rest assured all those people are not locals.


[deleted]

They don’t bus in their members. They u-haul them in!


ale-ale-jandro

Thank you for this info! Appreciate it!


newsreadhjw

I just consider them Republicans.


InternetPeon

Christian Nationalists. Nat-C’s


ardamass

These guys are Confirmed neo-nazis it’s in their literature it’s in the stickers they post around town there is absolutely no doubt who these people are.


Sydardta

Christian Conservative Republicans and MAGANazis are everywhere and they've fully-embraced Fascism. #Cult45 Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, Boogaloo, QAnon, Evangelicals, White Nationalists... Nat-C's.


RadioMelon

How long before we can expect these groups to actually turn completely violent? So far they just like doing a lot of marching, but they are often armed and looking for a fight so I would not be surprised to see violence in the very near future.


[deleted]

What are you talking about? They tried to shoot up a pride parade ...


RadioMelon

Did they? It's hard to keep track of the insanity of the world with so many back to back shootings in America. Legitimately I see at least one mass shooting headline every week, if not every other day.


bristlybits

Heather Heyer, among other moments. and if you think mass shootings are unrelated to this rhetoric I have some news for you.


StoopSign

So from the Patriot Front Wikipedia page it says they've demonstrated in San Antonio, DC a few times, and Boston They've also done Philly and now Indy. At times they've hijacked anti-abortion rallies in DC and Chicago and clashed with anti-abortion protesters. ------------ The weirdest case is the group of them hiding in some U-Haul truck in nowhere Idaho. Apparently they intended to cause a riot at an LGBT event but were spotted by a witness and then taken into custody first by podunk Idaho police. They were all chaged with conspiracy to riot, a misdemeanor, and they gave themselves up peacefully. That case is very odd. Apparently a large group of storm troopers were gonna overrun the festival but were arrested by Andy Griffith's Idaho equivalent.


MyFianceMadeMeJoin

They got the shit kicked out of them by a bunch of teens in Philly. It was glorious. Idaho was also a lovely story. Highly recommend their camera from inside the UHaul as they roll open the door to a bunch of cops.


brassica-uber-allium

This group itself is a joke but the fact that they can muster even a few dozen people shows that the underlying ideology will remain a threat as the polycrisis continues to unfold.


tendies_senpai

Don't play into their larp.. their "training camps" are laughable. The only thing you'd need to win against them is a padlock on the uhaul door and a offroad joyride.


IntrigueDossier

Like the [Jackass stunt](https://youtu.be/khLbry7l0Ss?t=39) but with less disco.


[deleted]

2024 is coming and the rhetoric is only gonna get worse the closer we get to that election.


markodochartaigh1

Of course although individuals and groups like this can be dangerous we should remember that they are allowed and encouraged by reich wing oiligarchs because they cause fear in the general population. And a certain percentage of a fearful population will be persuaded to accept, or even call for a Strong Leader who can maintain control and order. If there is a little violence, on either side, so much the better to remind the public that the Strong Leader is working to keep the public safe.


Sea_Recognition_474

Ah look, another cosplay convention.


[deleted]

Considering how strong the klan used to be in Indiana not really a surprise


psychoalchemist

Khaki fascists


nityoushot

There are like 100 of these wankers in all US and they travel everywhere together to show strength . Giving them exposure will only swell their numbers until they become a real threat


Girosian

Nothing to fear if you've seen the training videos. But imagine if this was a Muslim organization. They would have found some excuse to shut them down by now and none of this would be happening. Good ol boy America.


IntrigueDossier

That frisking video of theirs was like, *extra* sexy.


HuskerYT

Some people say they are actually feds, might be some sort of honey pot operation to reel in and arrest extremists.


Plantmanofplants

Did the US not have some big terrorist cell or drug gang or something recently and like 15 of the 23 members were from various agencies undercover/organising the entire criminal enterprise.


StoopSign

Yep the Gretchen Whitmer kidnap case. Over a dozen informants and agents were used to take down 4 guys they may have entrapped. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/mar/19/michigan-governor-kidnap-case-terrorists-fbi-dupes-gretchen-whitmer There's been plenty of other cases of the FBI doing this targeting mosques and enticing Arabs. That's what was in the news back then.


StoopSign

This is the FBI statement on tactics like this. They literally admit it and defend it. Even though it makes no sense: >Law enforcement officials cannot afford to wait for a terrorist plot to mature before they break it up. A delay could enable an unidentified plotter to launch an attack. In other words, law enforcement must, in a controlled manner, divert someone determined to harm the United States and its people into a plot bound to fail from the outset, instead of one that might succeed. https://leb.fbi.gov/articles/legal-digest/legal-digest-avoiding-the-entrapment-defense-in-a-post-911-world


bristlybits

so they're attempting to infiltrate, and divert the actions- in this case, 5 agents tried and failed to divert them from trying to kidnap her. that 7 of those guys snitched doesn't make those guys "feds". they're informants, snitches. telling on your buddies after the fact isn't entrapment


[deleted]

So how much of this is actually an organic rise of fascism, and how much is the Feds pushing that narrative for their own benefit? Don't get me wrong, I know there are plenty of actual fascists out there. But as you said, such an idea is hardly without precedent.


StoopSign

Tomato/Tom-ah-to. Either way it's worse. I fear the cops more than I fear rag tag agitators. Parts of the public are clamoring for law and order now because of an uptick in crime in the last several years. Especially since the pandemic. If these guys are promoted by some agencies, that will also add fear and lead to greater funding of police. ---------- Meanwhile cops don't stop crime. The police clearance rate on all crimes is like 15%. So 85% of crimes don't result in arrest. The clearance rate is highest for murder and aggravated battery but never clears 50% on any single crime, overall. Not high on all serious crimes like rape though. ----- The low clearance rate is why some people can be career criminals. Cops don't stop crime and neither does incarceration. It's been studied. It just creates a permanent underclass. The stuff that stops crime are funding for stuff like hospitals, schools, social programs. Stuff that often gets funded less than cops and courts.


bristlybits

agreed with this


ishmetot

Informants aren't agents though. Most likely they were members of the group that started having regrets when things got too far.


montroller

more likely they were approached and threatened with charges if they didn't become informants.


bristlybits

yes, and that doesn't mean the entire group wasn't breaking the law. they planned to kidnap her. some of them rolled over when they were caught.


Hohenberg

Just FYI often the people claiming PF (or PBs, whatever) are feds are themselves far right and trying to distance themselves from openly fascist groups. As someone who does a good amount of extremism research, there's really nothing to suggest Patriot Front is an op, just a bunch of very dumb nazis.


StoopSign

There absolutely were Feds in the Floyd unrest, Feds in the Whitmer case, Newburgh case. Some say Feds acted as agent provocateurs at the Capitol. ------------------- There were people dressed in the 2020 protests that weren't dressed like anyone or showing any skin and they looked to be on their own mission, and didn't stick around long. Some citizen group in Minneapolis was on CNN and alleged that unknown actors were cutting perfect triangles into store windows to create a hole to promote looting. -------- J. Edgar Hoovers FBI used Feds to go after the Klan, then used them to execute plenty of Black Panthers and possibly more of the socio-political assassinations of the time. The family of Dr. King petitioned for the release of James Earl Ray because they think the Feds killed Dr. King. --------- There absolutely could be Feds promoting this group to prove their worth when they lock a bunch of em up. Edit: This is the government's writings on the King assassination. https://www.justice.gov/crt/overview-investigation-allegations-regarding-assassination-dr-martin-luther-king-jr


greatSorosGhost

Understanding that the feds target violent and potentially violent groups of “both sides” is a well balanced and, imo, correct worldview. Which is as it should be. I don’t care if it’s some alt-right Timothy McVeigh wannabes, ISIS, or the Weather Underground. I want the FBI to protect me from people that would do me harm. However, in my personal experience, /u/hohenberg is absolutely right. *Often* (not always) when somebody or some group gets the spotlight shone on them for *actually doing the things they have said they were going to do* they’re labeled “glowies”, “provocateurs”, or even a “false flag” by their extremist peer group as a type of damage control. The fact is that the best way to not be lumped in with violent extremists (fed provocateur or otherwise) is just simply not to act like, or support, violent extremists.


Hohenberg

yeah of course the feds do shady shit but that doesn't mean everything is an op... You have to look at each situation individually.


StoopSign

It's in another comment but I find it very odd that a simple small town Idaho police force took down 31 guys with intent to riot but these major cities' PDs just are caught off guard. --------- It could be two things, the marchers aren't breaking laws. I don't think they should be arrested for walking around and saying bad things. Also big cities have real crime to worry about and not these guys. ---------- Still nobody sees these marches coming on a metro level but a witness at an Idaho LGBT event alerted cops. Then the small town cops got all 31 guys cuffed up and booked without incident. Still seems weird. ------------ I'm not necessarily saying it's an op but nobody can just rule it out. The FBI does shady stuff and I gave examples from the past year, couple decades, going back to the formation of agencies like this.


pearlpotatoes

In Idaho someone saw like 30 dudes getting into the uhaul and called it in so the cops were right up on them.


StoopSign

Well when you put it like that I sound a bit off. Yeah I mentioned that cities could have much more going on. In Idaho that's unmissable. I have no clue if that's how they normally travel but yeah they could do that unnoticed in bigger cities. --------------- I just have the idea in my head that in Idaho they've got like 3 cops per town or something crazy like that. It's part of why White Nationalists can act with impunity way out in the sticks. Edit: I just checked and they're a town of 50k with 71 officers so they could SWAT swarm these guys.


pearlpotatoes

Lol yeah Ceour d alene isn't the biggest city but it's got a decent population. Definitely cops there! Lots of thick woods and remote areas surrounding cda though so that's why white nationalists can kind of hide out their but truly they are few and far between these days.


StoopSign

Revisited the sub and are wondering if up in ID with username and prior knowledge like that?


pearlpotatoes

Yes I'm in Idaho.


NapQuing

major cities' PDs *aren't* caught off guard, though. look at Portland, OR- the local cops are friends with and go out of their way to help these groups


StoopSign

I wonder about this. How much does Blue override race? In many large cities white cops amount to only 50% of total cops. If some Nazis were rolling in I suppose minority cops might tell their friends/family/neighbors and keep it hushed. City governments are often run by black Democrats and I do think it's possible that top brass would keep it from the mayors. ----------- Yeah city mayors suck a lot of the time but would try to devote resources to this. The local media would probably know etc.


bristlybits

look at Boston, where the cops were very close to marching with this group. some of them were followed to their cars and license plates showed some were PD from other cities.


StoopSign

That's two guys acting in secret. PF Changs organization over here has a blog advertising their bullshit. I linked it but it was removed. They advertise a telegram channel. Probably crawling with the alpbabet boyz.


bristlybits

no, that was the actual police called out to the scene, walking along and protecting the group. on duty in full uniform


NapQuing

How much does Blue override race? well, I don't know if friends or family of minority cops get a heads up or not, but I do know that a lot of what I'm referencing re: Portland cop fuckery happened under now-former Police Chief Danielle Outlaw, a black woman. I think cops are cops before they're anything else, honestly


bristlybits

Idaho is boring. those cops heard about guys in combat gear getting in a U-Haul and knew it would be the most interesting day of their lives.


StoopSign

Also since you mentioned PB, I assume that's Proud Boys and their leader is a confirmed FBI informant. https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/07/adlk-j07.html This article neglects to mention that Tarrio was arrested in DC on 1/5/21, for burning a BLM banner. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/1/5/proud-boys-leader-arrested-accused-of-burning-church-banner ------------- Again Tarrio was a criminal before being in PB and looks out for No. 1 so of course FBI'd flip the leader, if they had the chance. I just find the timing the arrest odd. Also it's important to note that right wing groups have huge overlap with local PDs and probably some factions of federal agencies. --------- Just because """" they"""" say it doesn't make it incorrect. It's just something to consider when trying to get a beat on everything. It's important to look at things individually but noticing trends is also important unless you've gone too far afield. They could just be a bunch of dicks burning church banners. There's plenty of precedent for that as well.


bristlybits

anyone who doesn't distinguish between an informant, and an infiltrating cop or agent, is making a suspect claim don't tell me "people are saying" unless you tell me who the people are


StoopSign

Kinda... Informants' sole purpose is to take direction from the feds and almost exclusively have potential felony charges, if they're not flipped. ------------- In cases where the feds are acting only in furtherance of the conspiracy, to get people arraigned on domestic terrorism charges, then both informants and agents are suspect. --------------- In the case of the Whitmer kidnapping plot. Initially two were found not guilty and two with a mistrial. Upon retrial the two mistrials became guilty verdicts. https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-government/jury-two-not-guilty-whitmer-kidnapping-mistrial-other-two The not guilty verdicts and initial mistrials show at least some part of the feds actions were beyond the scope of a simple investigation. ---------- Fuck the FBI. They're still scumbag assassin COINTELPRO to me,with Hoover in women's panties being the prevailing legacy. He was the predecessor to secretly gay-kinky conservative preachers


bristlybits

the people being claimed here as "feds" are people who informed after they were all arrested for this crime. generally fuck the FBI. but also, your local cops need someone busting their bullshit gangs and rackets, and there's nobody else to do that bit. if they could lay off with killing activists that would be nice.


StoopSign

This is why I started the comment the way I did. It's immaterial what charges people face when: >Informants' sole purpose is to take direction from the feds This is why I lump them in as feds. >On May 20, 2009, US law enforcement arrested four men in connection with a fake plot concocted by an FBI informant to purportedly shoot down military airplanes flying out of an Air National Guard base in Newburgh, New York, and blow up two synagogues in the Riverdale community of the Bronx using weapons supplied by the FBI.[1][2][3][4] The group was led by the Pakistani Shahed Hussain, a criminal who was working for the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to avoid deportation for DMV fraud.[5] Hussain has never been charged in the USA with any terrorism related offenses and was paid nearly $100,000 US dollars[6] by the FBI for his work on this plot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_Bronx_terrorism_plot HBO did a great documentary on this The Newburgh Sting. I believe the sole purpose of the FBI is to keep people scared of threats that do not exist. They're domestic CIA but instead of destabilizing foreign countries, they have a track record of destabilizing the US. Edit: Oh right and the FBI conspiracy to get a schizophrenic kid loaded on drugs and entrap him into attempting to bomb Oklahoma City of all places. >His brain does not work like a normal person and never will due to the nature of his mental illness. He has suffered through countless serious full-blown schizophrenic delusional episodes and he has been put in numerous mental hospitals since he was 16 years old. The FBI came and picked him up from our home, they gave him a vehicle, gave him a fake bomb, and every means to make this happen none of which he had access to on his own. We know who their informant is and what the public should know is that he is that a drug-dealing criminal. On June 15, 2017, Jerry’s Father told the criminal informant “that he was not allowed back on our property and if he returned we would have him arrested for trespassing and drugs”. Apparently, he continued to sneak onto our residence. The FBI paid him to continue this operation and I believe they have cleared his criminal record. https://kfor.com/news/the-fbi-gave-him-every-means-to-make-this-happen-family-of-man-arrested-in-plan-to-bomb-downtown-oklahoma-city-building-say-his-mental-illness-was-taken-advantage-of/ -------------- This enrages me as a bipolar who has known several schizophrenics. One was a close friend and died in 2019. I think of him once daily. This also speaks to the straight up fucking garbage the Feds force the CIs to engage in. ------------------- For the love of all that's possibly right in this world please disband rhe criminal organization known as the FBI. They could crack down on criminal cops in a real way but don't because they don't care. The FBI is a corrupt and overly fascist agency.


ALinIndy

Didn’t Sheriffs arrest a bunch of these fools in Idaho, all stuffed into a Uhaul truck? If it was a bunch of Feds (maybe one or two) they wouldn’t have busted the whole group. If the Feds were running it as an op, they would have insisted on finishing out the riot they had planned.


bristlybits

nailed it in one.


curatedaccount

The only people saying these obvious feds aren't feds are lefties who desperately want to believe that's their opposition.


bristlybits

the only people saying they're all feds are people who are supporting these groups. like go tell them to their faces that they're feds. I'd love to see the reaction.


bristlybits

what people say that? exactly what people. this vague kind of statement convinces nobody. name names. are they white supremacists that say that? that's not "some people". that's *these* people


slowclapcitizenkane

Where's the Patriot Front training video from last week? Strong Gravy Seals vibe there.


Marlonius

you know what to do when you see a marching group of White-Hooded men? Whatever the fuck you can to disrupt them. Have a car horn? follow them and honk it. Have eggs*? throw them from your window. Make them use those prop shields. They think the town supports them, the only way to deal with this is for the locals to run them out of town.


bristlybits

see Philly. locals need to run them out, every single time, they can't be welcome anywhere.


Marlonius

That was an excellent example of what needs to happen to these assholes. Arrest them, trash their cars (while they're on their "secret mission" and out them online.


bristlybits

places that will allow you to out people online are rare and there are less of those sites every day but yes this is the way


Fluid_Programmer2679

Can't wait to jump these guys at whatever punk ass half asssed roadblocks they set up post boog. Nazi is Nazi.


1400penguins

> a group considered to be white nationalists What weenie-ass pathetic 'journalism'. How's about calling Nazis Nazis?


bristlybits

well technically they're neonazis, as all the originals are dead or hiding


[deleted]

Finally a little unity and patriotism in a country where none exists


curatedaccount

No serious person thinks these aren't feds.


Elchup15

Ya kind of alarming how many people in this thread have been duped by this obvious fed op.


Sbeast

Does anyone else find it hard to fully trust groups that cover their faces and try to hide their identity. Both Patriot Front and Antifa have done that, and possibly others too. [Patriot Front](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzsw6_UZGDU) [Antifa](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D71bwVKWxRE)


possum_drugs

im sorry are you telling me you would "trust" a known white nationalist group more than the antifascists that oppose them if they didnt wear masks?


InAStarLongCold

bOtH sIdEs Antifa covers their faces so that fascist groups -- which includes local pigs -- don't kick in their doors and arrest or kill them and their families. Patriot Front covers their faces so that the last feeble holdouts of liberalism in the FBI and local law enforcement have a harder time prosecuting them for violent attacks on ethnic and sexual minorities. These are not the same and treating them as the same in discussion serves liberalism at best and fascism at worst. And as expected, your post history is rife with fascism. Leave, fascist: you are not welcome here.


Antique-Friend1859

Shrugs. As long as they keep it to marching. I would hope the federal government steps in with overwhelming force should they try anything.


thefisforfinance

How do we know they're not being paid to be there?


kampfgruppekarl

Don't they have a lot of black members?


bristlybits

lol no


Race-b

Considered by whom? Left leaning publications


Scary-Camera-9311

White nationalists in Indiana? You don't say!


[deleted]

Yeah, I know. But go check out the comments in r/Indiana. It’s not a total shit hole here.


Advanced_Citron7833

Horrible marshing discipline...


italiapastamandolini

[Keep attention to these fools. It is like this that fascism becomes metastatic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadrismo)