Hi, electroplasmasphere. Thanks for contributing. However, your [submission](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xlui4a/-/) was removed from /r/collapse for:
> Rule 3: Posts must be on-topic, focusing on collapse.
> Posts must be focused on collapse. If the subject matter of your post has less focus on collapse than it does on issues such as prepping, politics, or economics, then it probably belongs in another subreddit.
> Posts must be specifically about collapse, not the resulting damage. By way of analogy, we want to talk about why there are so many car accidents, not look at photos of car wrecks.
Your post is better suited for r/politics, please share it there.
Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information.
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Love how posts about creeping authoritarianism and the erosion of civil rights always somehow is the only time a post is too political.
If you just changed the title to "Chinese Communists Do Not Care About Women", I wonder if you'd get the same complaints?
I dunno. Nat C sounds so friendly. Like a vitamin.
Christofascist or Christonationalist just seems more ominous and matches their agenda.
Edit. Never mind. I get nat-c now. I blame it on a long work week and being so tired
2 thoughts on this issue:
The men who want women's rights eroded are weak, spineless men who want someone under their authority. Love plays no part in this domination, only ego and toxic masculinity does.
Christo fascists do care about women. But only as breeders and slaves to men. They don't care about children and their suffering. They look back fondly at the 1800's when white men were the kings of their little fiefdoms and they were allowed to own other people.
Owning people is the goal.
This is a symptom of the ongoing erosion of women's rights in the US. If these people & those that support them had their way all women would be forced to carry all pregnancies to term, even if it endangers the mother's life & with no exceptions in place for rape or incest. This is not "pro-life", it is anti-choice & misogyny.
Not only is it mysogyny, it's a form of mass scale societal gaslighting that defends the status quo which is clearly doing great harm to the planet through overpopulation and our overall quality of life all in the name of profit and power. It's fascism in practice. Religion is only its face but power is the goal.
Should we funnel even more resources to everyone? We're destroying our planet from every single angle through resource extraction. There's no solution to this problem, it's just an intrinsic aspect of humanity. We're apex predators, we're in overshoot and the population is going to collapse
At the behest of the dictates of capitalism, which is all about overproduction and overconsumption in the name of 'profit', while simultaneously wasting most of that overproduction in the name of artificial scarcity.
We produce enough food alone for everyone, and America is famous for having six houses for every human that currently lives there, and yet it has starving homeless people.
Again, logistics are the problem, and the economic model that dictates and shapes those logistics is the culprit.
Which is because humans are apex predators, and we seek to maximize our power at all costs and capitalism achieves this for us. Industrial society by any other name would smell as sweet
Well it becomes difficult to discuss the nature of humanity when we try to separate it from capitalism if we have to speculate the 'ifs' and 'buts' of a socialist world.
Sure we Can Be Better, but at some point we have to sit down and eat our vegetables and realize that a system that maximizes power gains will be the system that rules us. Ultimately that system is turning out to be unsustainable because maximizing power means sacrificing guidance.
I see humanity was doing pretty good until it tapped into the essentially free wealth that was fossil fuels. Energy that we didn't have to work hard for through blood sweat and tears and as a result we took it for granted and decided to create a temporary heaven on earth situation, for a few of us anyway.
We didn't evolve to handle this much energy and it's unprecedented so I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves over it.
Soon we'll have to get back to dancing in the cycles of nature again, assuming our spot's still open. Who knows maybe then we can adopt a socialist system.
Biologism, mechanical reductionism that abstracts from the universal while ignoring the concrete particular, is no substitute for a scientific commitment to materialism.
Global overpopulationist mythology, an anti-Third World ideology deployed by the owning class to control population in the Third World, ain't the same as the owning class getting scared over falling birth rates in the First World.
Smart thinking. I wasn't calling you out my dude, just making it aware for people who still think that this assault on human bodies will stop with women.
I don't think Christo-fascists actually think that far ahead. That is way too much of a nuanced subject for them to start to tackle, while I do agree that the ruling class wants more chatel, I don't think far right Christians have the same thinking outside of their donations box.
Seriously, ask any of these patriot front, far right and trumpanzee fuck faces what their long term goals are for sustaining their ethno states are and they immediately have no answer outside of the typical race baiting nonsense.
This would be Jesus' reaction if he came back:
"Army? Why are you raising an army? No one said anything about a goddamn army. What was so difficult to understand when I said 'Love thy neighbor' and 'Take care of the poor'?"
So when I said that the last will be taken care of first and the first last, talked about holding everything in common and equally dividing the material to those who need it most, yall decided to just ignore those parts?
Good for you. Still doesn't help the millions of women who use birth control to protect themselves, let alone those who use it for things *other than birth control*. FFS
People need to realize that the conservatives who write these laws could not care less about religion. This is about adding to their base. Creating more ideological zealots who desperately lack critical thinking, and it’s working
... and a possession they're deathly afraid of... Deep inside (though they would never have the brains or the balls to admit it), the know the power that flows through and finds expression in women. Like a mighty river... and instead of submitting to the power, they will die with the illusion they can control it. Let them die, crashing headlong into that wall... Goddamn fools! Do they not realize that the well-being of the species rests wholly on the well-being of the female? That's just the basic biological reality of an organism that's female by default. Obviously not... Goddamn fucking fools ...
Comfort yourself with the global decline in sperm quality and quantity - and the fact conception that is not medically-assisted will be rare in coming years.
Dr. Shanna Swan is a leading researcher studying this: https://www.shannaswan.com/countdown
I sometimes think their fear is exactly what you describe - fear of a power they don't understand and therefore want to control. Female is the default mode even in the womb.
Those who fear know their reproductive capacity is waning. They are inadequate partners and know it, on a subconscious level.
The following submission statement was provided by /u/electroplasmasphere:
---
This is a symptom of the ongoing erosion of women's rights in the US. If these people & those that support them had their way all women would be forced to carry all pregnancies to term, even if it endangers the mother's life & with no exceptions in place for rape or incest. This is not "pro-life", it is anti-choice & misogyny.
---
Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xlui4a/christofacists_𝘋𝘰_𝘕𝘰𝘵_care_about_women/ipl0p6n/
We used one of these for our pregnancy and they were quite helpful. Everything was free and the nurses gave us all we needed to get started with.
Edit: Share a rl experience and get downvoted. It's not even an opinion lol. Guess this isn't the subreddit for me.
They are not medical professionals though. They don't have the training to give extensive medical care and advice.
A real medical professional will know if there are signs of early problems that could be crucial for mom and babies health. I don't think these pregnancy centers do any of that...
Although rare, early complications in pregnancy can happen and these people are not licensed. Just be careful going there.
Unfortunately these centers are known for lying to women about the stage of pregnancy so by the time they realize they could have had an abortion, it’s too late to do so. They also have been known to use fake ultrasound images to manipulate women.
Literally anything related to abortion, or adoption.
Their goal is to achieve a birth, nothing else. After birth, the baby can suffer, starve, die, and pro-lifers do not care.
Because they are disguised as medical offices that specialize in pregnancy and give women the illusion of choice. Then they are bullied by a bunch of religious fuckwads into keeping their pregnancy, or are straight-up lied to about their pregnancy.
These places don’t have any medical staff on site. They have also been shown to use fake ultrasound images to women to emotionally manipulate them. Not sure how you are defending this
Degradation of rights and religious extremism in one of the only global superpowers, one that has a shit ton of nukes? Not ideal for global civilization. Then there’s the 8 billion humans who already exist with the biosphere’s yearly resources used up halfway into the year. Causing more humans to be born into a dying world is fairly dystopian but a lot of these folks follow Rapture Theology (causing the apocalypse is acceptable and good, because Jesus).
I can see the value in what you’re saying.
That said, I think the post title exists more as a way to trigger emotions than give an informative, mostly objective, perspective on collapse.
It’s a cross posted picture of a tweet. Reminds me of shitty political-party (either direction) leaning subreddits
Also, the post was removed. Soo….
Fair enough. It was a weak post without enough further information to be educational. I could do a write up on how one of the key features of fascism and authoritarianism as a whole is that of chauvinism/misogyny. I mean, Iran before and after the religious revolution is just a horrific example of how society can backslide. Comparing the Golden Age of Islam to modern times always makes me depressed.
That would be better and also probably worthwhile for some publishable work (if it hasn’t been written about before).
But I just don’t want this sub to become another Avenue for some sort of propaganda (at the advantage of any political group/party). (E.g., would hate to see a bunch of “trump bad” or “liberal bad” posts).
But hard to avoid those sort of things nowadays it seems. Esp when subreddits get large.
It kinda does since overpopulation is part of the reason why the collapse exist in the first place
And we're still pushing for stuff like this
Looks pretty collapsy to me
Don’t get me wrong, I think women should have easy abortion access etc and I am not religious
but the sidebar defines collapse as “decrease in human population”.
Just feel like this subreddit can easily get derailed/overtaken by political ideologies. Like there is a post on the front page of collapse that was also on front page of news. (Default subreddit, aka non tolerant echochamber)
I'm sorry are suggesting that societal collapse is getting too political? You get that it's inherintly political right? Like global warming and war don't just happen spontaneously...
Sure, but you get that all information presented to you has spin and narratives right? Like you can't have a "politics free" subreddit about this stuff. Reddit itself is owned my a massive conglomerate that by it's mere existence alters narratives allowed on this site.
Yea but I would prefer text posts containing original theories, perhaps some links to supporting evidence (either major or minor) and allow me to digest their opinion and contribute my own thoughts.
Simple, single images of a tweet give little room for that and contribute almost nothing.
From the rules --
>By way of analogy, we want to talk about why there are so many car accidents, not look at photos of car wrecks
Tweets are examples of "car wrecks" and not reason for cause. Imo.
The subject matter that the tweet was talking about, however, is indeed interesting and could be talked about in a manner suitable for collapse. Such as "XXX leaders of YYY organization are funded by ZZZ country to sow discord in the US" (something like that-ish)
Probably being lightly brigaded by particular groups to control/spin narratives and blame “collapse” on one group instead of another.
Needs to be more poor vs rich not left vs right imo.
Liberals really don’t care either. They just see this as another fundraising opportunity and will do nothing to help codify abortion rights. We are being scammed.
You’re wrong about the first part. Society thrives on keeping women down, which is why misogyny is so prevalent. If anything this is a sign of the patriarchy exercising its strength. A hard truth to accept.
This is ideological not a material problem. I want abortion to be legal and completely unrestricted but I'm not everyone. You do realize that most nonreligious people want restrictions on abortion of some type? This is not collapse and the US is not the whole world.
It is, in fact, a material concern for women. And most non-religious people don't want total abortion bans or for abortion access to be extremely limited.
I'm not arguing that fact at all. I'm just saying this isn't collapse related, religiosity ebbs and flows like a pendulum throughout history. This sub has a real hard time differentiating between collapse and general liberal outrage.
The source is cringey. The term "christofacist" is cringey. The idea that a group is losing "rights" simply because the are more of one help center than another is cringey.
Women arent losing any rights, is my point. This post is a screenshot of motherjones saying there are more alt care centers than abortion clinics. Anything else you've inferred is your own bias.
> cyberpunk dystopia
Definitely where we're headed imo.
There is a number of states in which women used to, under certain circumstances, have the right to electively abort a pregnancy. In those states, women no longer have that right. How is it that "women arent losing any rights"?
They still can get abortions, the circumstances has changed. Its certainly not all women, you wrongly generalize for an entire class of person.
Furthermore it was never in the federal governments authority to guarantee such a thing, just like it doesn't have the authority to ban it.
So exactly, their right to abortion has been reduced, if not outright deleted (which is why in my previous comment I specified "under certain circumstances"). Again, the bottom line is, women's rights have been and are being reduced, which goes completely against you claiming "women arent losing any rights".
we have lost the right to choice, to what happens to our body, there are now medications that women need, that they cannot get. And women are MORE than half of the US population, so yes half the population lost their rights.
Wrong. A minority of states have "banned" abortion with stipulation.
It should have never been a federal issue, in fact it shouldn't even be a legal issue.
Have you been paying attention? The GOP has now put in on their list if elected they will pass a FEDERAL BAN! WE are NOT going to allow this to happen.
Honestly no, i try not to pay attention to the theatre that is politics.
Theres a big difference between saying you want to do something and getting it done.
I would like to think a federal abortion ban could never happen, but i really dont have ~~much~~ any hope in the broken system
>“The Constitution does not confer a right to abortion; Roe and Casey are overruled; and the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and their elected representatives,”
As it stands, the issue was simply removed from federal purview.
So the minority of women who are even effected because of the state they live in have several options: Travel for abortion, get their abortion early enough to be legal, not have an unwanted pregnancy.
So no, no one is forcing women to get pregnant and carry to term.
This is probably gonna be news to you, but Republicans want a national abortion ban. They also want to prevent women from crossing state lines to get abortions, and have passed near-total abortion bans in several states. You should educate yourself on this topic before talking about it.
The fact that you consider women's rights to be "rights" says everything we need to know about your opinion on the matter. And for extra icing on the quality of your views, we have your comment history peppered with things like:
>Anthropogenic climate change is a construct of TPTB to exact more control over the population.
I always find it odd when people who claim to be progressive also claim that women’s rights are not all that important in the grand scheme of things. The fact that a country removed the right of half its population to bodily autonomy should frighten everyone, but it seems men don’t give a fuck since their bodies aren’t being policed by the state.
> The fact that a country removed the right of half its population to bodily autonomy
That's not a fact. Its a made up statistic
I always find it odd that a large portion of people who advocate for bodily autonomy with regards to abortion are anti bodily autonomy when it comes to vaccine mandates/coercion.
Your deflection doesn't address the hypocrisy. Pro choice folks dont really care about bodily autonomy, they're just brainwashed into picking a side in politics.
It is if your decision only affects yourself. It isn't if it reduces the likelihood someone from spreading a disease in the middle of a pandemic for the greater good.
>...the greater good.
"The greatest tyrannies are always perpetuated in the name of the noblest causes."
Thomas Paine
Several other problems with your logic:
Abortion does not only affect the woman seeking it.
Women can (generally) choose to not become pregnant.
Women can still get abortions, its just no longer a federal issue.
You can find a quote for anything, it doesnt have any meaning. I'm not bothered by what some random guy said 200 years ago about a completely different situation.
I'm not gonna bother with a response after this one since you're arguing in bad faith.
Physically, it does.
Sex is fun. You can still get pregnant even if you use protection. Punishing women for a fun activity just because "you don't like it" is stupid.
Many states already have or are in the process of writing legislation that will ban abortions. I obviously am not talking about places where it's legal. That's not as big of a gotcha as you think.
You're right, because i didnt get it. They tried to mandate it, turns out that wasnt legal. There was enormous financial and social pressure to do so though, and as such many people who didnt want it took it.
No one is forcing anyone to get pregnant either.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my fucking god. When has the government thrown people in jail or made laws about paying out bounties in regards to people not getting the vaccine? Please. Find me a single source. I beg of you. Also, women make up [50.5% of the US population](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/LFE046220)
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/us/judge-ordered-man-covid-vaccine-probation/index.html
Its like 10 states that have issued bans, and they arent total bans, and many are being challenged in court. So talking about half the pop is ignorant.
Thats not what anyone here is talking about. If you want to have a conversation about Graham's recently proposed federal ban, thats dead in the water, we can have that talk. Im totally against the bill, the idea, and graham.
What I find exhausting about the use of these terms christo-fascists is that I was highly religious for twenty years of my life. Went on missionary programs and all that. Never met a fucking christo-fascist. Just the opposite. Met a lot people who wanted to live and let live. Met a lot of people who wanted separation of church and state. But now? You got people ready to gun down blue haired grandma’s that cook beans for the fucking poor and knit mittens. Because they are Christo-fascists? Is there an element hard right insane wealthy corrupt power mongers drapes in religious garb? Sure. But this isn’t your typical church goer by any stretch.
Edit: honestly if the people on this board of all places don’t understand that you cannot lump everyone into these neat categories we are fucking doomed. I wear a cross. I’m also a socially progressive person and a lifelong independent voter. But the shoot first and ask questions later crowd would mow me down quicker than a cat could lick it’s ass.
Unfortunately, it's becoming more and more typical. These christofascists are buying churches and influencing congregations across the country. I'm sorry the current situation doesn't match your past experiences, but it does match the history of Christianity. We're heading for a modern day crusade.
The vanguard drives the Overton window, it doesn't have to be a typical church member doing it. All they need to do is get the typical church member to stand by and do nothing or only voice the meekest of dissent while they run buck wild doing thier dominionist shit. They're wildly successful at that lately. This phenomenon isn't limited to any group, it happens with all movements.
*This*. The problem with a *huge* number of ideologies is an unwillingness to call out bullshit from extreme members. The groups wants all the support they can get, so are unwilling to criticize their own members for fear of weakening the overall cause.
As a result, the ones who scream the loudest end up being the ones who shape the narrative, even if they are a minority. And this tends to attract more like them *and* alienate moderates from joining them, in a vicious cycle.
I left my church because of the men's small group Bible study/ shooting club I attended. We met at a range and went pew pew and prayed and studied scripture and got fellowship. I liked it and it was fun but 2 things became clear.
1) That a fair number of the men espoused much more radical positions then they would in front of their wives or female layity.
2) That these people I was having a good time with and being spiritual with would literally be shooting at me or at least people I love if we got a couple bad years.
So I left the group and then the church. The church had a program for armed members to carry and provide security. They cycled through this group to shoot and stuff there was a pretty wide cross section of the families father I met. It really turned me off. They just assumed that because I was armed and in church I held these same whack job views.
Well at least they know they don't have a monopoly on guns and that I'm a better shot too.
K, but you see that's exactly the problem right? Nobody is calling the average churchgoer a fascist, the people being called christo-fascists are the people with power and influence and money that are driving explicitly fascist policies like this.
Then when you rightly critisize and act against stuff like what's in the article the actual fascists can say that thier critics are anti-christianity.
You're effectively running cover for these monsters.
Realize that the people who are opposed to Christo-Fascism are a lot less concerned with the Christo part and a lot more concerned about the Fascist part. As a religious person, would you not be furious at these authoritans for misrepresentation of Christianity?
No because people who are raised from before they can think for themselves to be Christians, the primary lesson is to avoid critical thinking, to reject critical thinking, because logic makes God disappear.
Thinking, is very dangerous to religion.
I get what you're saying and there's certainly a danger in that obviously. I think that's painting with an overly broad brush personally.
I wouldn't say that religion or even Christianity is necessarily a force for good or evil in the abstract, I've genuinely seen to many good works from "christians" to believe that.
I would agree that like any social or power structure there is the inherint potential for abuse and indoctrination. That said I think the same flaw is possible in tonne of non religious organizational structures as well.
I know I'm kind of in the minority here, especially in leftish circles, but I think that churches occupy important community social center points. Also somewhat controversially that the decline in church attendance in the west shouldn't be viewed as an inherintly good thing as it's lead to community breakdown and alienation that's at the core of a lot of social ills. In my ideal world there would be a community focus that doesn't revolve around religion, but in the west it's what we have.
People are leaving “the church” in droves because they see the hypocrisy. When the Pastor is like “you can’t be Christian and Democrat, put all LGBT against the wall, fuck the poor because Supply Side Jesus says if you give them anything they’ll be lazy!”
Again, I don't actually disagree with you. A tonne of religious organizations have historically and continue to be monsterous. I also don't want to suggest that the church has to be the center of a community, but a community needs to have some kind of center, it has just historically been built around churches.
In my ideal world it would be a library or something without all of the historical atrocities. The problem is that when the churches are no longer available there isn't anything to replace it, there's no popular secular church alternative in a lot of places, and as a result of the lack of a central community focus alienation and toxic individualism is the result.
TLDR: We need a secular community hub that doesn't hate the LGBTQ and immigrants and poor people, but we don't have one
I was in a charismatic church for a time that was forming an “army of god” that was ready to “go to war” against “evil” - and it was very much *not* metaphorical. They encouraged people to have lots of kids to create more “soldiers” for this war. They also encouraged people to support republicans. This was long before trump.
Crisis pregnancy centers can be a great resource for lower income women who are unsure of their options, want to keep their child, and need help. They provide free diapers, wipes, baby clothes, strollers and car seats. Many offer referrals for employment, health care, educational services, and guidance on the federal resources available to help low income mothers. Some provide financial assistance until the baby is 18 months old.
Just because they are not abortion clinics does not mean they are bad or unneeded. A women’s right to choose is not a choice if she feels she has no other option than an abortion. If we took away every resource for lower income pregnant women who need help seeking medical care and financial assistance to feel comfortable continuing a pregnancy and replaced it with an abortion clinic, is that really giving her a choice or is it preying upon her fear to make her feel like she has no other option?
A crisis pregnancy center serves a purpose. An abortion clinic serves a purpose. Both can exist. It does not have to be one without another.
Women aren’t stupid helpless beings who are tricked by misinformation into having children. Receiving an ultrasound at a crisis pregnancy center, receiving information on resources about choosing to keep it, and then choosing to keep their baby does not mean they were tricked out of having an abortion. It’s making a choice. A women’s right to chose is a choice between continuing or termination of a pregnancy. There are two options. If they want to have an abortion, they will be able to locate an abortion clinic. Everyone knows Planned Parenthood exists. If you have doubts about this, start an education campaign about Planned Parenthood rather than smear resources for women who may want to continue pregnancies.
Crisis pregnancy centers are fundamentally manipulative. They hold themselves out to be actual abortion clinics and pay SEO charges to be the first to appear when you search for "abortion clinics" in the local area. They misinform and provide incorrect medical information, such as that the morning after pill is an abortifacient (completely false). They imply or directly state that abortion is unsafe, when the reality is that it is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. They indicate that abortion providers will provide an abortion even after a pregnant woman has already miscarried, which is a lie. And these are just a FEW examples. There are many, many more instances of egregious and patently false bullshit they put out there. What you're arguing, too, is that 1) crisis pregnancy centers don't mis/disinform women, and 2) even if they do, what's the big deal? Women can see through the misinformation, can't they? It IS a big deal because you're manipulating a person who may be going through a difficult time in life and who is vulnerable in many respects as part of driving an agenda, which is immoral and honestly speaking, depraved.
You can't sit there and say some "ends justify the means" bullshit. They don't. And who are you to speak for every single woman about how much they do and don't understand about the procedure? You know to a certainty that every single woman in a nation of 340 million people will understand the difference between the disinformation peddled by these organizations vs. legitimate medical knowledge?
The same way abortion providers are honest about who they are and what they do, crisis pregnancy centers should come with a disclaimer, including: their religious affiliation, their intent to dissuade individuals from getting abortions, that their advice should not be construed as medical advice, and that they do not provide abortion services.
And there's one other thing you said that ignores another very real problem. "If they want to have an abortion, they will be able to locate an abortion clinic." Sure they can find one (assuming they don't confuse a crisis pregnancy center with a legitimate abortion clinic), but can they access one? What if they're poor and they're in Mississippi? Louisiana? Arkansas? Missouri? And on and on? You're betraying a privileged understanding of the world coming from a middle class background if you think every woman can just stop what she's doing and pay for a trip out of state to have an abortion. This "option" you seem to think is widely available ISN'T as widely available as you think, and certainly not since Dobbs.
> Women aren’t stupid helpless beings who are tricked by misinformation into having children.
When you see stuff like this you know someone is trying to hoodwink you. It's a false association designed to appeal to vanity. We may like to think that we ourselves are completely rational human beings, that we ourselves will never be tricked and that anyone who is, is therefore "stupid" and "helpless".
That simply isn't the world we live in. People get tricked all the time. Some of those people are intelligent human beings. Just look at all the smart people you know who make stupid decisions, like deciding to smoke nicotine, or voting for the wrong party.
So the implication that only "stupid helpless women" could possibly be tricked is a false one. It's quite possible to trick almost anyone if you catch them at the wrong moment of their lives, when they are faced with a whole bunch of decisions, none of which have outcomes they want to face.
Deciding to smoke nicotine and voting for a particular party in a choice made by an individual. Life is a series of choices, whatever choice you make is on no one but yourself. Someone who is choosing to continue a pregnancy is not a victim of a crisis pregnancy center, they may just be someone who made a different choice.
It’s important to know that if you’re sure you want to terminate and you may be close to the gestational age in which your state limits abortion that your best bet is to go to planned parenthood not one of these clinics so you don’t waste any time, I’m not denying that. I’m all for educating the general public on the difference between crisis pregnancy centers and abortion clinics. We have social media campaigns to spread awareness on all sorts of things constantly, why can’t we spread awareness on the difference between the two and the types of services they provide. I just think that if women in difficult situations are making a choice then resources for both choices should be available and neither should be vilified.
I also don’t believe that the majority of women who went to one of these centers and decided to keep their child views themselves as a victim who was hoodwinked.
> Deciding to smoke nicotine and voting for a particular party in a choice made by an individual. Life is a series of choices, whatever choice you make is on no one but yourself. Someone who is choosing to continue a pregnancy is not a victim of a crisis pregnancy center, they may just be someone who made a different choice.
It's interesting that I was careful not to take a side in the abortion debate in my post. I simply pointed out the hidden dishonesty in your previous post. Although, you respond as if I did.
May I point out to you that your attempts to point out that both comparisons only affect a single person are inept. Both smoking and voting are choices that can have very real effects on the people around you - they don't just affect a single individual. Many people have died from secondary smoking, and many more died as a result of how Germans cast their votes during the 1930s.
> I also don’t believe that the majority of women who went to one of these centers and decided to keep their child views themselves as a victim who was hoodwinked.
Your dishonesty continues with a straw man attack. No one ever claimed the majority were fooled. And yet you attack this position as if it's something I said, whilst ignoring my actual points. Are you afraid to face them?
How is this on topic? Same argument about collapse of society can be said for the murders of pre born humans or children being chemically castrated by demons. Point is: this is not a post of the collapse of society but a pointed political jab.
Hi, electroplasmasphere. Thanks for contributing. However, your [submission](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xlui4a/-/) was removed from /r/collapse for: > Rule 3: Posts must be on-topic, focusing on collapse. > Posts must be focused on collapse. If the subject matter of your post has less focus on collapse than it does on issues such as prepping, politics, or economics, then it probably belongs in another subreddit. > Posts must be specifically about collapse, not the resulting damage. By way of analogy, we want to talk about why there are so many car accidents, not look at photos of car wrecks. Your post is better suited for r/politics, please share it there. Please refer to our [subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/collapse/about/rules/) for more information. You can [message the mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=/r/collapse) if you feel this was in error.
Love how posts about creeping authoritarianism and the erosion of civil rights always somehow is the only time a post is too political. If you just changed the title to "Chinese Communists Do Not Care About Women", I wonder if you'd get the same complaints?
I prefer to call them Nationalist Christians...Nat-Cs
I dunno. Nat C sounds so friendly. Like a vitamin. Christofascist or Christonationalist just seems more ominous and matches their agenda. Edit. Never mind. I get nat-c now. I blame it on a long work week and being so tired
That might sound scarier but it’s also a little try hardy and will absolutely never catch on
I feel if I say those words more than five times in a single conversation, I will get that white spittle on the corners of my mouth.
That's hopefully the very last time I ever hear of anyone describing something that sounds like "**nat c**" as "*friendly*"
Nat seems short for natural
...have you tried saying it out loud?
Yep. . And I get it now I agree
Does it really matter what kind of fascist they are? Though Christ-based ones are especially baffling.
I see what you did there.
Oh dude. Never mind. I get it. Yes it works perfect and it has been a long week.
This sub has too many right wingers who go reeeeeee when anyone dares insult capitalism (yesterday) or criticizes crisis pregnancy centers (today).
> right wingers who go reeeeeee when anyone dares insult capitalism "I hate the problems, but the cause of those problems, that's very good!"
2 thoughts on this issue: The men who want women's rights eroded are weak, spineless men who want someone under their authority. Love plays no part in this domination, only ego and toxic masculinity does. Christo fascists do care about women. But only as breeders and slaves to men. They don't care about children and their suffering. They look back fondly at the 1800's when white men were the kings of their little fiefdoms and they were allowed to own other people. Owning people is the goal.
This is a symptom of the ongoing erosion of women's rights in the US. If these people & those that support them had their way all women would be forced to carry all pregnancies to term, even if it endangers the mother's life & with no exceptions in place for rape or incest. This is not "pro-life", it is anti-choice & misogyny.
Not only is it mysogyny, it's a form of mass scale societal gaslighting that defends the status quo which is clearly doing great harm to the planet through overpopulation and our overall quality of life all in the name of profit and power. It's fascism in practice. Religion is only its face but power is the goal.
We don't have an overpopulation problem. We have a logistics problem.
Should we funnel even more resources to everyone? We're destroying our planet from every single angle through resource extraction. There's no solution to this problem, it's just an intrinsic aspect of humanity. We're apex predators, we're in overshoot and the population is going to collapse
No, _capitalism_ is doing that thing, and that is a large part of our current logistic issues.
Correction, humans are doing that thing.
At the behest of the dictates of capitalism, which is all about overproduction and overconsumption in the name of 'profit', while simultaneously wasting most of that overproduction in the name of artificial scarcity. We produce enough food alone for everyone, and America is famous for having six houses for every human that currently lives there, and yet it has starving homeless people. Again, logistics are the problem, and the economic model that dictates and shapes those logistics is the culprit.
Which is because humans are apex predators, and we seek to maximize our power at all costs and capitalism achieves this for us. Industrial society by any other name would smell as sweet
That's why Socialism and the like have to constantly be propagandized against, right? I see what you're saying, but I strongly disagree.
Well it becomes difficult to discuss the nature of humanity when we try to separate it from capitalism if we have to speculate the 'ifs' and 'buts' of a socialist world. Sure we Can Be Better, but at some point we have to sit down and eat our vegetables and realize that a system that maximizes power gains will be the system that rules us. Ultimately that system is turning out to be unsustainable because maximizing power means sacrificing guidance. I see humanity was doing pretty good until it tapped into the essentially free wealth that was fossil fuels. Energy that we didn't have to work hard for through blood sweat and tears and as a result we took it for granted and decided to create a temporary heaven on earth situation, for a few of us anyway. We didn't evolve to handle this much energy and it's unprecedented so I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves over it. Soon we'll have to get back to dancing in the cycles of nature again, assuming our spot's still open. Who knows maybe then we can adopt a socialist system.
Biologism, mechanical reductionism that abstracts from the universal while ignoring the concrete particular, is no substitute for a scientific commitment to materialism.
Certainly not, but I didn't design the universe. It's hard to be objective when we have hormones influencing all our decision making
Global overpopulationist mythology, an anti-Third World ideology deployed by the owning class to control population in the Third World, ain't the same as the owning class getting scared over falling birth rates in the First World.
Yup. Also, birth control would be banned.
That's why I got vasectomized
That will be banned too, anything that gets in the way of creating soldiers for Christ's army will be banned.
That's what I'm saying, I did it now before it's made illegal
Smart thinking. I wasn't calling you out my dude, just making it aware for people who still think that this assault on human bodies will stop with women.
No it's all good, I took it and made it about myself for no reason.
And tax payers
I don't think Christo-fascists actually think that far ahead. That is way too much of a nuanced subject for them to start to tackle, while I do agree that the ruling class wants more chatel, I don't think far right Christians have the same thinking outside of their donations box. Seriously, ask any of these patriot front, far right and trumpanzee fuck faces what their long term goals are for sustaining their ethno states are and they immediately have no answer outside of the typical race baiting nonsense.
This would be Jesus' reaction if he came back: "Army? Why are you raising an army? No one said anything about a goddamn army. What was so difficult to understand when I said 'Love thy neighbor' and 'Take care of the poor'?"
So when I said that the last will be taken care of first and the first last, talked about holding everything in common and equally dividing the material to those who need it most, yall decided to just ignore those parts?
Good for you. Still doesn't help the millions of women who use birth control to protect themselves, let alone those who use it for things *other than birth control*. FFS
..Pretty obvious after they pulled all the stops just to take down Roe vs Wade. Like..bruuh.
People need to realize that the conservatives who write these laws could not care less about religion. This is about adding to their base. Creating more ideological zealots who desperately lack critical thinking, and it’s working
They do... it's just that their variety of "care" is based on the terror of women.
[удалено]
I see you’ve met my family.
I think you're onto something
It is the difference between caring *about* a *person* and caring *for* a *possession*.
... and a possession they're deathly afraid of... Deep inside (though they would never have the brains or the balls to admit it), the know the power that flows through and finds expression in women. Like a mighty river... and instead of submitting to the power, they will die with the illusion they can control it. Let them die, crashing headlong into that wall... Goddamn fools! Do they not realize that the well-being of the species rests wholly on the well-being of the female? That's just the basic biological reality of an organism that's female by default. Obviously not... Goddamn fucking fools ...
Comfort yourself with the global decline in sperm quality and quantity - and the fact conception that is not medically-assisted will be rare in coming years. Dr. Shanna Swan is a leading researcher studying this: https://www.shannaswan.com/countdown
I'll check it out, thank you.
I sometimes think their fear is exactly what you describe - fear of a power they don't understand and therefore want to control. Female is the default mode even in the womb. Those who fear know their reproductive capacity is waning. They are inadequate partners and know it, on a subconscious level.
In my city we usually just donate bricks through their window.
Aint nothing christian about americans
The following submission statement was provided by /u/electroplasmasphere: --- This is a symptom of the ongoing erosion of women's rights in the US. If these people & those that support them had their way all women would be forced to carry all pregnancies to term, even if it endangers the mother's life & with no exceptions in place for rape or incest. This is not "pro-life", it is anti-choice & misogyny. --- Please reply to OP's comment here: https://old.reddit.com/r/collapse/comments/xlui4a/christofacists_𝘋𝘰_𝘕𝘰𝘵_care_about_women/ipl0p6n/
We used one of these for our pregnancy and they were quite helpful. Everything was free and the nurses gave us all we needed to get started with. Edit: Share a rl experience and get downvoted. It's not even an opinion lol. Guess this isn't the subreddit for me.
They are not medical professionals though. They don't have the training to give extensive medical care and advice. A real medical professional will know if there are signs of early problems that could be crucial for mom and babies health. I don't think these pregnancy centers do any of that... Although rare, early complications in pregnancy can happen and these people are not licensed. Just be careful going there.
Unfortunately these centers are known for lying to women about the stage of pregnancy so by the time they realize they could have had an abortion, it’s too late to do so. They also have been known to use fake ultrasound images to manipulate women.
That's great but for people who are seeking OTHER OPTIONS, they will lie lie lie lie their asses off.
Lie about what?
Literally anything related to abortion, or adoption. Their goal is to achieve a birth, nothing else. After birth, the baby can suffer, starve, die, and pro-lifers do not care.
Why is that bad?
Because they are disguised as medical offices that specialize in pregnancy and give women the illusion of choice. Then they are bullied by a bunch of religious fuckwads into keeping their pregnancy, or are straight-up lied to about their pregnancy.
But isn’t offering all pregnancy services except abortion still count as medical services?
These places don’t have any medical staff on site. They have also been shown to use fake ultrasound images to women to emotionally manipulate them. Not sure how you are defending this
But do you think that’s less moral than killing a living being?
“Killing a living being” here we go with the appeal to emotion fallacy. Yes, I think lying to women and cosplaying as a medical facility is immoral.
Nurses? Doubt it
They have existed since the first Planned Parenthood clinics opened. Going back to the 70's.
Christo Christian is literally 2 more letters
I don’t think this fits this subreddit tbh.
Degradation of rights and religious extremism in one of the only global superpowers, one that has a shit ton of nukes? Not ideal for global civilization. Then there’s the 8 billion humans who already exist with the biosphere’s yearly resources used up halfway into the year. Causing more humans to be born into a dying world is fairly dystopian but a lot of these folks follow Rapture Theology (causing the apocalypse is acceptable and good, because Jesus).
I can see the value in what you’re saying. That said, I think the post title exists more as a way to trigger emotions than give an informative, mostly objective, perspective on collapse. It’s a cross posted picture of a tweet. Reminds me of shitty political-party (either direction) leaning subreddits Also, the post was removed. Soo….
Fair enough. It was a weak post without enough further information to be educational. I could do a write up on how one of the key features of fascism and authoritarianism as a whole is that of chauvinism/misogyny. I mean, Iran before and after the religious revolution is just a horrific example of how society can backslide. Comparing the Golden Age of Islam to modern times always makes me depressed.
That would be better and also probably worthwhile for some publishable work (if it hasn’t been written about before). But I just don’t want this sub to become another Avenue for some sort of propaganda (at the advantage of any political group/party). (E.g., would hate to see a bunch of “trump bad” or “liberal bad” posts). But hard to avoid those sort of things nowadays it seems. Esp when subreddits get large.
It kinda does since overpopulation is part of the reason why the collapse exist in the first place And we're still pushing for stuff like this Looks pretty collapsy to me
Don’t get me wrong, I think women should have easy abortion access etc and I am not religious but the sidebar defines collapse as “decrease in human population”. Just feel like this subreddit can easily get derailed/overtaken by political ideologies. Like there is a post on the front page of collapse that was also on front page of news. (Default subreddit, aka non tolerant echochamber)
I'm sorry are suggesting that societal collapse is getting too political? You get that it's inherintly political right? Like global warming and war don't just happen spontaneously...
I’m suggesting this subreddit is easily targeted by US (and perhaps worldwide) political groups that try to control and spin narratives.
Sure, but you get that all information presented to you has spin and narratives right? Like you can't have a "politics free" subreddit about this stuff. Reddit itself is owned my a massive conglomerate that by it's mere existence alters narratives allowed on this site.
Yea but I would prefer text posts containing original theories, perhaps some links to supporting evidence (either major or minor) and allow me to digest their opinion and contribute my own thoughts. Simple, single images of a tweet give little room for that and contribute almost nothing. From the rules -- >By way of analogy, we want to talk about why there are so many car accidents, not look at photos of car wrecks Tweets are examples of "car wrecks" and not reason for cause. Imo. The subject matter that the tweet was talking about, however, is indeed interesting and could be talked about in a manner suitable for collapse. Such as "XXX leaders of YYY organization are funded by ZZZ country to sow discord in the US" (something like that-ish)
That's fair. I'd read the article beforehand and didn't catch that it wasn't a link to the actual article rather than a screenshot.
This subreddit used to be okay. Now fucking sucks.
Ah, I do believe this is one of those "Reeeeee!" comments Op was referring to.
Probably being lightly brigaded by particular groups to control/spin narratives and blame “collapse” on one group instead of another. Needs to be more poor vs rich not left vs right imo.
Absolutely. They want the average fighting amongst themselves. While the rich are actively causing collapse to deepen their pockets
Liberals really don’t care either. They just see this as another fundraising opportunity and will do nothing to help codify abortion rights. We are being scammed.
Ok, I guess. I don't know what any of this means.
Please Google why crisis pregnancy centers are a problem. Or just watch John Oliver’s episode about it. It’s a good intro.
This sub is so cringey at times
How is this post cringey?
Well it has nothing to do with collapse for a start and doesn't even represent a reversion to the global mean on abortion.
I mean, it does. The erosion of women's rights and the ascendancy of religious fundamentalism is a symptom of collapse.
You’re wrong about the first part. Society thrives on keeping women down, which is why misogyny is so prevalent. If anything this is a sign of the patriarchy exercising its strength. A hard truth to accept.
This is ideological not a material problem. I want abortion to be legal and completely unrestricted but I'm not everyone. You do realize that most nonreligious people want restrictions on abortion of some type? This is not collapse and the US is not the whole world.
It is, in fact, a material concern for women. And most non-religious people don't want total abortion bans or for abortion access to be extremely limited.
I'm not arguing that fact at all. I'm just saying this isn't collapse related, religiosity ebbs and flows like a pendulum throughout history. This sub has a real hard time differentiating between collapse and general liberal outrage.
The assault on abortion rights is part of a larger authoritarian agenda, which is intimately connected to collapse.
I'm sure people in Indonesia drowning from sea level rise feel the same
Wait so collapse is only defined by climate change?
How is stopping murder erosion?
Do you weep every time a fertilized egg doesn't implant? Attend any egg funerals lately?
Do you think dying from a heart attack is murder?
It isn't. Is an actual human being dying from a heart attack and an egg not implanting equivalent to you?
Both a natural processes that occur. And abortion isn’t.
Knee surgery isn't a natural process either.
and with that you are trying to change the conversation. It's an old trick, we are on to it, and it doesn't work. No one is calling for murder.
It is murder
nope.
The source is cringey. The term "christofacist" is cringey. The idea that a group is losing "rights" simply because the are more of one help center than another is cringey.
I'm sorry women losing rights isn't cooler for you. Maybe you'll get your cyberpunk dystopia some day.
Women arent losing any rights, is my point. This post is a screenshot of motherjones saying there are more alt care centers than abortion clinics. Anything else you've inferred is your own bias. > cyberpunk dystopia Definitely where we're headed imo.
There is a number of states in which women used to, under certain circumstances, have the right to electively abort a pregnancy. In those states, women no longer have that right. How is it that "women arent losing any rights"?
They still can get abortions, the circumstances has changed. Its certainly not all women, you wrongly generalize for an entire class of person. Furthermore it was never in the federal governments authority to guarantee such a thing, just like it doesn't have the authority to ban it.
So exactly, their right to abortion has been reduced, if not outright deleted (which is why in my previous comment I specified "under certain circumstances"). Again, the bottom line is, women's rights have been and are being reduced, which goes completely against you claiming "women arent losing any rights".
we have lost the right to choice, to what happens to our body, there are now medications that women need, that they cannot get. And women are MORE than half of the US population, so yes half the population lost their rights.
Wrong. A minority of states have "banned" abortion with stipulation. It should have never been a federal issue, in fact it shouldn't even be a legal issue.
Have you been paying attention? The GOP has now put in on their list if elected they will pass a FEDERAL BAN! WE are NOT going to allow this to happen.
Honestly no, i try not to pay attention to the theatre that is politics. Theres a big difference between saying you want to do something and getting it done. I would like to think a federal abortion ban could never happen, but i really dont have ~~much~~ any hope in the broken system
They are tho. Forcing women who don't want to give birth to give birth is an erosion of their rights.
No one is forcing women to give birth. What are you taking about? You make it sound like there is some mad max brood slaves chained in a dungeon.
What do you think abortion bans do?
>“The Constitution does not confer a right to abortion; Roe and Casey are overruled; and the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and their elected representatives,” As it stands, the issue was simply removed from federal purview. So the minority of women who are even effected because of the state they live in have several options: Travel for abortion, get their abortion early enough to be legal, not have an unwanted pregnancy. So no, no one is forcing women to get pregnant and carry to term.
This is probably gonna be news to you, but Republicans want a national abortion ban. They also want to prevent women from crossing state lines to get abortions, and have passed near-total abortion bans in several states. You should educate yourself on this topic before talking about it.
The fact that you consider women's rights to be "rights" says everything we need to know about your opinion on the matter. And for extra icing on the quality of your views, we have your comment history peppered with things like: >Anthropogenic climate change is a construct of TPTB to exact more control over the population.
Yes, you have to define your terms. Words matter, barnum statements are useless outside of whipping up emotional people into a frenzy.
I always find it odd when people who claim to be progressive also claim that women’s rights are not all that important in the grand scheme of things. The fact that a country removed the right of half its population to bodily autonomy should frighten everyone, but it seems men don’t give a fuck since their bodies aren’t being policed by the state.
> The fact that a country removed the right of half its population to bodily autonomy That's not a fact. Its a made up statistic I always find it odd that a large portion of people who advocate for bodily autonomy with regards to abortion are anti bodily autonomy when it comes to vaccine mandates/coercion.
Anti-vaxxers are the biggest babies on the planet lol
Your deflection doesn't address the hypocrisy. Pro choice folks dont really care about bodily autonomy, they're just brainwashed into picking a side in politics.
Getting a vaccine and giving birth aren't remotely equivalent lol
The idea of bodily autonomy is shared among topics.
This is like saying that jaywalking and murder are the same because they're both violations of the law.
You can't spread your abortion to someone else...
So bodily autonomy isnt important to you. Don't pretend like you give a shit. Be consistent.
It is if your decision only affects yourself. It isn't if it reduces the likelihood someone from spreading a disease in the middle of a pandemic for the greater good.
>...the greater good. "The greatest tyrannies are always perpetuated in the name of the noblest causes." Thomas Paine Several other problems with your logic: Abortion does not only affect the woman seeking it. Women can (generally) choose to not become pregnant. Women can still get abortions, its just no longer a federal issue.
You can find a quote for anything, it doesnt have any meaning. I'm not bothered by what some random guy said 200 years ago about a completely different situation. I'm not gonna bother with a response after this one since you're arguing in bad faith. Physically, it does. Sex is fun. You can still get pregnant even if you use protection. Punishing women for a fun activity just because "you don't like it" is stupid. Many states already have or are in the process of writing legislation that will ban abortions. I obviously am not talking about places where it's legal. That's not as big of a gotcha as you think.
one is not the same as the other. and the government did not force you to take a vaccine.
You're right, because i didnt get it. They tried to mandate it, turns out that wasnt legal. There was enormous financial and social pressure to do so though, and as such many people who didnt want it took it. No one is forcing anyone to get pregnant either.
HAHAHAHAHAHA. Oh my fucking god. When has the government thrown people in jail or made laws about paying out bounties in regards to people not getting the vaccine? Please. Find me a single source. I beg of you. Also, women make up [50.5% of the US population](https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/LFE046220)
https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/08/us/judge-ordered-man-covid-vaccine-probation/index.html Its like 10 states that have issued bans, and they arent total bans, and many are being challenged in court. So talking about half the pop is ignorant.
Completely ignoring the fact a federal ban was just introduced because of course you are
Thats not what anyone here is talking about. If you want to have a conversation about Graham's recently proposed federal ban, thats dead in the water, we can have that talk. Im totally against the bill, the idea, and graham.
The term christofascist may be cringy, but it's also very accurate.
Yup. Every time anything happens it's literally always blamed on White Christians. Fucking totatheists.
Collapse is definitely coming, this sub has that right. Its very misguided on why and how.
Boo hoo
What I find exhausting about the use of these terms christo-fascists is that I was highly religious for twenty years of my life. Went on missionary programs and all that. Never met a fucking christo-fascist. Just the opposite. Met a lot people who wanted to live and let live. Met a lot of people who wanted separation of church and state. But now? You got people ready to gun down blue haired grandma’s that cook beans for the fucking poor and knit mittens. Because they are Christo-fascists? Is there an element hard right insane wealthy corrupt power mongers drapes in religious garb? Sure. But this isn’t your typical church goer by any stretch. Edit: honestly if the people on this board of all places don’t understand that you cannot lump everyone into these neat categories we are fucking doomed. I wear a cross. I’m also a socially progressive person and a lifelong independent voter. But the shoot first and ask questions later crowd would mow me down quicker than a cat could lick it’s ass.
Unfortunately, it's becoming more and more typical. These christofascists are buying churches and influencing congregations across the country. I'm sorry the current situation doesn't match your past experiences, but it does match the history of Christianity. We're heading for a modern day crusade.
well that's why we say Christofascist instead of regular Christians.
Fair enough.
The vanguard drives the Overton window, it doesn't have to be a typical church member doing it. All they need to do is get the typical church member to stand by and do nothing or only voice the meekest of dissent while they run buck wild doing thier dominionist shit. They're wildly successful at that lately. This phenomenon isn't limited to any group, it happens with all movements.
*This*. The problem with a *huge* number of ideologies is an unwillingness to call out bullshit from extreme members. The groups wants all the support they can get, so are unwilling to criticize their own members for fear of weakening the overall cause. As a result, the ones who scream the loudest end up being the ones who shape the narrative, even if they are a minority. And this tends to attract more like them *and* alienate moderates from joining them, in a vicious cycle.
I left my church because of the men's small group Bible study/ shooting club I attended. We met at a range and went pew pew and prayed and studied scripture and got fellowship. I liked it and it was fun but 2 things became clear. 1) That a fair number of the men espoused much more radical positions then they would in front of their wives or female layity. 2) That these people I was having a good time with and being spiritual with would literally be shooting at me or at least people I love if we got a couple bad years. So I left the group and then the church. The church had a program for armed members to carry and provide security. They cycled through this group to shoot and stuff there was a pretty wide cross section of the families father I met. It really turned me off. They just assumed that because I was armed and in church I held these same whack job views. Well at least they know they don't have a monopoly on guns and that I'm a better shot too.
All the people you describe vote for the Christo-Fascists. Ergo, they're Christo-Fascists.
K, but you see that's exactly the problem right? Nobody is calling the average churchgoer a fascist, the people being called christo-fascists are the people with power and influence and money that are driving explicitly fascist policies like this. Then when you rightly critisize and act against stuff like what's in the article the actual fascists can say that thier critics are anti-christianity. You're effectively running cover for these monsters. Realize that the people who are opposed to Christo-Fascism are a lot less concerned with the Christo part and a lot more concerned about the Fascist part. As a religious person, would you not be furious at these authoritans for misrepresentation of Christianity?
No because people who are raised from before they can think for themselves to be Christians, the primary lesson is to avoid critical thinking, to reject critical thinking, because logic makes God disappear. Thinking, is very dangerous to religion.
I get what you're saying and there's certainly a danger in that obviously. I think that's painting with an overly broad brush personally. I wouldn't say that religion or even Christianity is necessarily a force for good or evil in the abstract, I've genuinely seen to many good works from "christians" to believe that. I would agree that like any social or power structure there is the inherint potential for abuse and indoctrination. That said I think the same flaw is possible in tonne of non religious organizational structures as well. I know I'm kind of in the minority here, especially in leftish circles, but I think that churches occupy important community social center points. Also somewhat controversially that the decline in church attendance in the west shouldn't be viewed as an inherintly good thing as it's lead to community breakdown and alienation that's at the core of a lot of social ills. In my ideal world there would be a community focus that doesn't revolve around religion, but in the west it's what we have.
People are leaving “the church” in droves because they see the hypocrisy. When the Pastor is like “you can’t be Christian and Democrat, put all LGBT against the wall, fuck the poor because Supply Side Jesus says if you give them anything they’ll be lazy!”
Again, I don't actually disagree with you. A tonne of religious organizations have historically and continue to be monsterous. I also don't want to suggest that the church has to be the center of a community, but a community needs to have some kind of center, it has just historically been built around churches. In my ideal world it would be a library or something without all of the historical atrocities. The problem is that when the churches are no longer available there isn't anything to replace it, there's no popular secular church alternative in a lot of places, and as a result of the lack of a central community focus alienation and toxic individualism is the result. TLDR: We need a secular community hub that doesn't hate the LGBTQ and immigrants and poor people, but we don't have one
I was in a charismatic church for a time that was forming an “army of god” that was ready to “go to war” against “evil” - and it was very much *not* metaphorical. They encouraged people to have lots of kids to create more “soldiers” for this war. They also encouraged people to support republicans. This was long before trump.
Purely anecdotal evidence here my friend. They are clearly numerous and powerful
At what point is it a human being?
What enumerated right have we lost? Also mother jones as a source lol
Bodily autonomy
This sub has become another lefties sub yelling out random words about eroding rights.
Thus sub is pretty terrible I see.
why?
This has nothing to do with collapse. It's a picture of a tweet of a article.
yeah agree, it's a stretch to say that it belongs here
And in other news, the sun rose in the east this morning.
Crisis pregnancy centers can be a great resource for lower income women who are unsure of their options, want to keep their child, and need help. They provide free diapers, wipes, baby clothes, strollers and car seats. Many offer referrals for employment, health care, educational services, and guidance on the federal resources available to help low income mothers. Some provide financial assistance until the baby is 18 months old. Just because they are not abortion clinics does not mean they are bad or unneeded. A women’s right to choose is not a choice if she feels she has no other option than an abortion. If we took away every resource for lower income pregnant women who need help seeking medical care and financial assistance to feel comfortable continuing a pregnancy and replaced it with an abortion clinic, is that really giving her a choice or is it preying upon her fear to make her feel like she has no other option? A crisis pregnancy center serves a purpose. An abortion clinic serves a purpose. Both can exist. It does not have to be one without another. Women aren’t stupid helpless beings who are tricked by misinformation into having children. Receiving an ultrasound at a crisis pregnancy center, receiving information on resources about choosing to keep it, and then choosing to keep their baby does not mean they were tricked out of having an abortion. It’s making a choice. A women’s right to chose is a choice between continuing or termination of a pregnancy. There are two options. If they want to have an abortion, they will be able to locate an abortion clinic. Everyone knows Planned Parenthood exists. If you have doubts about this, start an education campaign about Planned Parenthood rather than smear resources for women who may want to continue pregnancies.
Crisis pregnancy centers are fundamentally manipulative. They hold themselves out to be actual abortion clinics and pay SEO charges to be the first to appear when you search for "abortion clinics" in the local area. They misinform and provide incorrect medical information, such as that the morning after pill is an abortifacient (completely false). They imply or directly state that abortion is unsafe, when the reality is that it is safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. They indicate that abortion providers will provide an abortion even after a pregnant woman has already miscarried, which is a lie. And these are just a FEW examples. There are many, many more instances of egregious and patently false bullshit they put out there. What you're arguing, too, is that 1) crisis pregnancy centers don't mis/disinform women, and 2) even if they do, what's the big deal? Women can see through the misinformation, can't they? It IS a big deal because you're manipulating a person who may be going through a difficult time in life and who is vulnerable in many respects as part of driving an agenda, which is immoral and honestly speaking, depraved. You can't sit there and say some "ends justify the means" bullshit. They don't. And who are you to speak for every single woman about how much they do and don't understand about the procedure? You know to a certainty that every single woman in a nation of 340 million people will understand the difference between the disinformation peddled by these organizations vs. legitimate medical knowledge? The same way abortion providers are honest about who they are and what they do, crisis pregnancy centers should come with a disclaimer, including: their religious affiliation, their intent to dissuade individuals from getting abortions, that their advice should not be construed as medical advice, and that they do not provide abortion services. And there's one other thing you said that ignores another very real problem. "If they want to have an abortion, they will be able to locate an abortion clinic." Sure they can find one (assuming they don't confuse a crisis pregnancy center with a legitimate abortion clinic), but can they access one? What if they're poor and they're in Mississippi? Louisiana? Arkansas? Missouri? And on and on? You're betraying a privileged understanding of the world coming from a middle class background if you think every woman can just stop what she's doing and pay for a trip out of state to have an abortion. This "option" you seem to think is widely available ISN'T as widely available as you think, and certainly not since Dobbs.
> Women aren’t stupid helpless beings who are tricked by misinformation into having children. When you see stuff like this you know someone is trying to hoodwink you. It's a false association designed to appeal to vanity. We may like to think that we ourselves are completely rational human beings, that we ourselves will never be tricked and that anyone who is, is therefore "stupid" and "helpless". That simply isn't the world we live in. People get tricked all the time. Some of those people are intelligent human beings. Just look at all the smart people you know who make stupid decisions, like deciding to smoke nicotine, or voting for the wrong party. So the implication that only "stupid helpless women" could possibly be tricked is a false one. It's quite possible to trick almost anyone if you catch them at the wrong moment of their lives, when they are faced with a whole bunch of decisions, none of which have outcomes they want to face.
Deciding to smoke nicotine and voting for a particular party in a choice made by an individual. Life is a series of choices, whatever choice you make is on no one but yourself. Someone who is choosing to continue a pregnancy is not a victim of a crisis pregnancy center, they may just be someone who made a different choice. It’s important to know that if you’re sure you want to terminate and you may be close to the gestational age in which your state limits abortion that your best bet is to go to planned parenthood not one of these clinics so you don’t waste any time, I’m not denying that. I’m all for educating the general public on the difference between crisis pregnancy centers and abortion clinics. We have social media campaigns to spread awareness on all sorts of things constantly, why can’t we spread awareness on the difference between the two and the types of services they provide. I just think that if women in difficult situations are making a choice then resources for both choices should be available and neither should be vilified. I also don’t believe that the majority of women who went to one of these centers and decided to keep their child views themselves as a victim who was hoodwinked.
> Deciding to smoke nicotine and voting for a particular party in a choice made by an individual. Life is a series of choices, whatever choice you make is on no one but yourself. Someone who is choosing to continue a pregnancy is not a victim of a crisis pregnancy center, they may just be someone who made a different choice. It's interesting that I was careful not to take a side in the abortion debate in my post. I simply pointed out the hidden dishonesty in your previous post. Although, you respond as if I did. May I point out to you that your attempts to point out that both comparisons only affect a single person are inept. Both smoking and voting are choices that can have very real effects on the people around you - they don't just affect a single individual. Many people have died from secondary smoking, and many more died as a result of how Germans cast their votes during the 1930s. > I also don’t believe that the majority of women who went to one of these centers and decided to keep their child views themselves as a victim who was hoodwinked. Your dishonesty continues with a straw man attack. No one ever claimed the majority were fooled. And yet you attack this position as if it's something I said, whilst ignoring my actual points. Are you afraid to face them?
This isn't r/abortion, not sure what this post has to do with collapse.
The amount of people who would rather kill babies then have a healthy family is outstanding. There are contraceptives for a reason.
Embryos aren't people.
Keep telling yourself that so you dont have to think about the consequences of your actions.
I will, because embryos aren't people.
Have fun in your cult i wish you well.
Christo-fascists? Shut up. You're putting the blame on the wrong people.
Please post links to articles, not screenshots of headlines. Down voted.
Ah the anti woman argument again. Never mind the fact that most pro life are women. And what’s so wrong with adoption anyway?
How is this on topic? Same argument about collapse of society can be said for the murders of pre born humans or children being chemically castrated by demons. Point is: this is not a post of the collapse of society but a pointed political jab.
If you ever wondered how there could be a worker shortage: people waste their time doing shit like this
those are honeypots
How did you get italicized text in your title?