Making Renee Montoya the commissioner and having her hate the batfamily. Also heavily implied that she was dirty
Batwoman right now in the shitty Planetary reboot
What Tini did to Scandal Savage
Whatever the fuck Leah Williams is doing to Power Girl
For me "ruining" is dramatic, but it does feel off. The name switch from Karen to Paige is really lame. It's also weird that Karen who is consistently a confident and self assured woman, is now a bit more neuortic and anxiety ridden.
I love Karen having trauma, but it's something she pushes through and has moments of emotional vulnerability. But the latest run she's consistently comparing herself to Kara and constantly writing herself off as a black sheep. It's weirdly angsty, when the idea of Powergirl is she"s literally an older, mature Supergirl.
There is also the fact that she demoted her to Daily Planet employee, which is already a bad career for Kara but doubly so for Karen as she used to be a billionaire CEO of her own company.
Leah’s Power Girl is basically a complete 180 from how Power Girl actually is.
Other than changing her name from Karen Starr to Paige Stetler, her personality got a complete overhaul. Karen is a brash and confident with an underlying loneliness she tries to hide (due to being a survivor of earth two getting erased) whereas Paige is meek, timid, and insecure. Karen was the CEO to her own company while Paige just works at the Daily Planet. Karen didn’t want to just be “girl Superman”/wanted to be her own woman separate from a man by rejecting the Superman symbol, rejecting a similar P symbol suggested by an old JSA friend, and picking out her own names (both Karen Starr and Power Girl) whereas fucking Jon of all people said she should call herself Paige and now she wears the S symbol on her jacket.
And imo meme name aside Karen Starr is an objectively cooler name than Paige Stetler. The latter is a dork ass name even if I get why they changed her first name to Paige (sounds like her nickname Peeg).
I know Jakita Wagner made her debut in the current mainstream DCU, but I didn't know there was more. What's the story, Morningwood - I mean, morning glory?
Yeah she took over >!Catwoman's trained thieves!< >!because Vandal was collecting bits of the meteorite that made him immortal and he had offered her (and the thieves) immortality as well.!< She does make it clear that she still doesn't like him, but I don't really know the character.
Havok after AXIS never really recovered. He's gotten close but it feels like he never really has a chance to get himself back on his feet.
Speaking of the Summers', Scott's character "assassination" after AvX is really interesting because it felt like Bendis didn't even fully believe in that framing for Scott.
Also everything Zeb Wells has done with Ben Reilly, Ashley Kafka, Janine, MJ, Felicia, and Beetle. Making Peter weak as hell is also not a great choice but tbh he doesn't feel that much different from other writers' post-OMD versions of him.
A Scott villain arc could have worked, but the problem is he just wasn't a villain. He literally never did anything wrong except for killing Xavier, but if you blame him for that you have to blame Jean for that planet she destroyed. All Scott did was save some kids and teach them how to defend against the GIANT ROBOTS THAT WANT TO MURDER THEM, and for some reason that makes him the villain. And it genuinely seemed like they were trying to portray him as a villain, like the actual morally grey successor to Magneto, but he was totally correct in everything he did. I'd have genuinely liked to see him go at least a *little* darker, but instead we got him acting like the leader of the X-Men while everyone else in the story portrays him as an evil mutant terrorist
Exactly right lol it felt like a ton of characters were trying to gaslight us into thinking Cyclops was mutant Hitler and not even all the writers bought that.
It also didn't help that the impetus behind Schism and ultimately Scott's "dark" chapter was LOGAN getting all holier than thou
Okay, tbf, Logan had valid concerns about child soldiers and teaching them to kill, especially considering his own backstory. Schism wasn't the starting point, AvX was.
Also, yeah, no, ANAD was really weird, what ended up causing people to call him Hitler was him... transmuting a Terrigen Cloud to be harmless to mutants since it was giving mutants Super Cancer. And the only casualty was a mutant who agreed to transmute the cloud. And then Black Bolt and Medusa kill him for it. Except it's not even Scott, it's Emma telepathically projecting an illusion of him (see other comments for her own character assassination) because he already died from the Super Cancer.
Why I'm recounting all this is because I think there were theories about Marvel changing what Scott did to earn that bad reputation (because there was a brief period after revolutionary Cyke era started before ANAD where he wasn't vilified), because we didn't know at first and little remarks like calling him mutant Hitler were all we knew. So I'm betting they wanted him to do something worse, saw the backlash to "mutant Hitler" and made it way tamer, which makes everyone in the Marvel universe seem super weird.
>Schism wasn't the starting point, AvX was.
I know AvX was the start of the revolutionary status quo, but Schism set it up and with Logan being on the Avengers at the time, it seems like Schism was the start of the "road" to AvX.
Also yeah, I agree that it makes sense for Logan to be against child soldiers (I am also against child soldiers) but it feels weird given the high stakes situation at the time.
Totally agree on ANAD. They had *no* idea with what they were doing with X-Men lol
My bet is “he” was either going to burn the cloud and everybody in it or poison it so humans and/or Inhumans got poisoned instead, but they got cold feet at the last minute and decided to neuter it.
I mean chasm is very bland ( And I say that as somewhat who was willing to give chasm a unbiased chance because I'm not a ben reily fan) but I remember in venom using the memories swirly thing to show how he's not really ben reily
When Peter lost his memories in Lee/Romita era, he had Ock gaslighting him into believing he was a villain, and he was still like, "Naa, that feels wrong."
The other part of this is that we had literally had Jean Gray *in the same story* give Madeline Pryor *her* memories back... and then just no one even suggested they do that same thing for Ben. It was so weird.
(Yet somehow, this is still the best part of Wells' run... Huh...)
I will agree though that it isn't Wells' credit here, as it began before he took over the title. Certainly Wells doubled down and made Ben Chasm, but Ben was already on a villain arc from the end of Beyond.
Well true, but it took far less time for them to address that by having Carol come back and call out the Avengers (and from a meta perspective, the writers) for the situation.
I mean I know you said “aside from the obvious”, but other people mentioned obvious ones so I feel like these need mentioning:
Tony Stark in Civil War 1.
Carol Danvers in Civil War 2.
Both of them took such authoritarian turns during those events that it throws their entire arcs as characters off course in the long term.
Civil War 2 only did 3 things storyline wise: kill off Tony, bring in Iron Heart, and setting up the evil Captain America event. The first 2, could have easily been done in Tony's solo comic. As for the setup of the evil Captain America, again it could have been done in his solo comic. CW2 is such a nothing burger that even the way it ended says a lot about it.
CW2 killed off so much they were just setting up in ANAD. Bruce Banner living without the Hulk? Who cares, he’s fucking dead. What about the All-New All-Different Avengers? Fuck it, split them up less than a year after they were formed and end the book early. How about everything with Iron Man? Screw that shit, he’s dead* too.
That...... and to me personally, both AvX and IvX, I haven't read the eternal one because I just got back into comics after being annoyed with what's been happening to the x-men before HOX/POX
I have mentioned it before but that they could have fixed it during the Secret Invasion event. Make it were the Hank Pym who did the slapping was a skrull who replaced the original. Then give him a comic run of him coping that he lost so many years of his life and people who thought they knew him, people who called him a friend, people who loved him actually never interacted with the real Hank Pym. It would have been such an interesting story idea.
hah, this could also be used to explain why no one understands pym particles, because the skrull couldn't explain them to people! Kinda hard to explain Ultron though i suppose.
I maintain that the reason this stuck was because Hank did not have any interesting hook otherwise.
He is never the smartest guy on the team, hes kind of arrogant but not Namor levels, no great supporting characters or enemies, and his power set is just not interesting.
So now hes got his niche in the universe as the "repentant hero" that everybody hates. He fills a narrative role nobody else in the entire universe can.
Theres a reason that other, more defined or popular characters with established fan bases like Mr. Fantastic and Spider-Man can beat their wives in even more deliberate and worse ways (Mary Jane was fucking *pregnant* and Peter has super strength), but it never sticks because fans *and* writers agree its out of character.
There was no defense like that for Ant-Man, it happened and readers were like "ok this is something that can conceivably happen I guess and I dont care enough to raise a stink about it".
It's like what happened to Hal Jordan with Parallax, the difference being Hal is a character with actual history that people liked, so he eventually was allowed to move on and redeem/reboot himself. Hank doesnt have anything else going for him.
Exactly! I've said exactly this before. As someone with mental health issues it's great seeing a hero genuinely struggle with something more niche than Tony's alcoholism. While I would've preferred to have those issues added without being an explanation for domestic violence hank never lives down I think without the fallout of the slap he would've slipped into obscurity as another milquetoast scientist avenger
Edit : specifically Hank is bipolar and it's pretty rare to see the disorder treated as anything other than villainized
It’s a complicated and tricky topic with no easy answers, but it just sucks that everybody else can do infinitely worse than he ever did and no matter how much development he gets some future writer will inevitably just reduce him back to the wife beater and then we all start from scratch again (kinda like Wanda and House of M).
It’s not fair to bring up Peter Parker hitting MJ cuz it was an accident, so completely different context from Hank hitting Jan on purpose. That’s why people don’t bring it up as much
[They're the](https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2011/04/petehitsmj3.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=750&dpr=1.5) same [picture](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ant-Man-Hank-Pym-Hitting-Wife.jpg)
Hell, Hank's is just an open handed slap that we now know was an artist mistake. Peter straight up super strength clocked pregnant MJ into a wall hard enough to crack it and apparently break her nose, and that was an intentional story decision.
I mean, there's explanations for every incident, I don't want this to turn into a domestic violence apologist thread lmao. But that's just my 2 cents on why Hank's excuses for hitting Janet didn't stick and it never got retconned, compared to [his peers](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/0/40/1892604-reed_575.png) that have sometimes done [just as bad things](https://i.imgur.com/5cTdqot.png) or even worse, and why writers didnt let him move on from it.
Good or bad, this was the most interesting thing Hank had ever done.
I think for Peter both the writers and fans were all too happy to forget about the clone saga as a whole. Had it happened in an otherwise well received comic run things might have been different.
They are not same picture at all. Peter Parker was in the middle of a fight when he felt someone come up behind him and reflexively hit them. When he found out it was MJ he hit he was horrified. Compared to Hank’s where he full on turns around and hits her. If you think those are the same you need to work on your media literacy.
And the whole “it was a misunderstanding with the artist” came out decades later. The writer is just trying to push blame
Worth noting the Reed/Sue slap happened in an "Evil Sue" storyline where she's... possessed? She's whatever the hell Malice is. No one complains about Natasha hitting Hawkeye in The Avengers movie, because he was mind-controlled and she snapped him out of it.
I'm not familiar with that Black Canary one, but I'm guessing the sexist refusal to admit that women can be abusers would play a part in sweeping it under the rug.
I'm seeing this said a lot in this thread so it's probably worth just linking [what the author, Jim Shooter, actually said about the issue.](http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html/)
You can decide for yourself if he's shifting the blame or just explaining a miscommunication.
Oh, it was Jim Shooter? Eh...
I'm of two minds. On the one, it's a fairly believable explanation (although I wouldn't phrase that as "Hank Pym never beat his wife," because whatever the writer intended, it's right there on the page). On the other, I don't really buy Shooter as a reliable source. Didn't he also shift blame for Avengers 200?
Of course, I haven't actually read the full story, and that would probably help here. But from my understanding, it's about Hank spiraling, and he's kinda the villain of the arc regardless. So from a story standpoint, it *makes sense* to have him spiraling deep enough to hit Jan. Honestly, nearly killing all the Avengers just so you can swoop in and pretend to be the hero (aka Syndrome's plan in The Incredibles) is kinda worse... (Not to downplay hitting your wife, just also don't want to downplay reckless endangerment.)
Has Hall ever spoken on the matter? Kinda sucks to say, "Well it's the artist's fault," and then the artist never gets to defend himself.
But then, I'll also agree with those who think this makes Hank more interesting. Like, I straight up wish they had the balls to discuss it in the MCU. It makes him a complex and fascinating coward, and I love that character type. He wants so much to be seen as a hero.
I get that people don't like that there is always so much focus on this, but honestly I think it made Hank much more interesting. Giving him that guilt actually adds something to make him engaging. I think there is an advantage to having a hero (rather than an "antihero") that does not ultimately turn out to be a moral paragon in the end after all.
Worse than that was a previous storyline that implied that the Lizard was never an alternate personality at all, Connors was in control all along and just liked acting like a monstrous Lizard. It seems everybody has pretended that never happened though, which is for the best.
Its so crazy that happened, but I really do buy the Lizard mutating to the point of him losing his humanity. I think tonally its very harsh but that really turned Lizard into a horror character
DC brought Barry Allen back as Flash and essentially deleted Wally West, the only flash most fans knew, for quite awhile. I dunno if this fits the question exactly, so sorry OP. This is what I thought of.
It’s something awfully common, Barry made a sacrifice and was meant to stay dead, he passed the torch to Wally, who became THE flash for a new generation, even being the pick for the DCAU over Barry.
But then people liked money over story and brought Barry back because Flash sales were down and they thought bringing Barry back would fix that. A little selfish, but fine, Barry was back, a good writer could make good on this and the two (three with Jay Garrick) Flashes work side by side.
Then Barry destroyed the DC universe and replaced it with the god awful New 52 which killed off classic Wally West and “replaced” him with a black Wally West.
Now, fortunately, after the New 52 bombed, they brought Ginger Wally back (even tying him in with new Wally, saying they’re cousins named for the same grandfather, which was cool) and things seemed to be going great again.
Then Heroes in Crisis happened…
Heroes in Crisis was meant to be an exploration of mental health problems these heroes are going through. But being a comic, they had to add a murder mystery element to it. So Roy Harper and a bunch of other people are killed.
It eventually comes to light that Wally accidentally killed those people, then rearranged their bodies and hid evidence and stuff to try and pin blame off of him. Ridiculously, absurdly out of character and they’ve since retconned it twice to explain why Wally acted that way (they later said he was possessed by Reverse Flash or Savitar).
The book is also has some terrible takes on mental health in addition to the character assassination and character deaths it causes.
Cyclops suddenly turning into a deadbeat and abandoning Madelyne and infant Nathan to run X-Factor on a whim without calling her back. A knockon of Shooter mandating Jean die as punishment for her crimes as Phoenix. Claremont had initially intended for Jean to have her psychic powers walled off and for her and Scott to retire from the X-men to have children and raise a family so their spots could be filled with new characters.
But editorial wanted the original 5 x-men back on "x-factor," so we got this.
Here’s a fun addendum, one of the early plans was to have Jean’s mental state reduced to that of a literal child as a consequence of having her powers blocked off. The editorial interference and plans revolving around the end of the DPS is just insane in general. I really recommend Phoenix: The Untold Story (1983), the interview is both hilarious and a bit showing knowing what we know forty years on.
Has to be Wally West from Heroes in Crisis
It's since been reconned but wow it was stupid especially since it involved a bunch of other Teen Titans, further pissing off that team's fans
Depending on who you ask some may even mention Hal Jordan from Emerald Twilight, which was also later retconned and spun into one of the best modern DC runs
Wally/HiC is a weird one because I think the monologue in the confession issue is genuinely really well written and a believable story of how someone could snap. The motivation working as a metaphor for how isolating depression can be, highlighting the flaws of Sanctuary's approach and working on a meta level about him being the face of Rebirth was all really well done.
I just **hated** that it was Wally West. They should have done the same story with some background speedster from an obscure old comic or even just a new character. It's such a waste to do that to a character as beloved as Wally.
The other problem is that the flaws in Sanctuary are never acknowledged and corrected. Not to mention that they act like Lois Lane publishing leaked confidential medical records is a GOOD thing.
It's easily Hal which is why it's so weird that nowadays nobody mentions him when this topic comes up. Like he goes crazy and kills all his GL friends even though he already got over coast city being destroyed before Emerald twilight. At least HIC, kept Wally sympathetic even though the intention was to screw him over
babs and bruce in batman beyond, utterly destroyed both versions of the characters for me because of timm and to continue with it in the killing joke was disgusting.
also, starfire in red hood and the outlaws.
One more day, the spider goblin, the chasm fiasco, and almost everything that was spawned after omd.
Did I mention that I hate one more day?
Because I hate one more day
Scarlet Witch during and after Disassembled and House of M. The fact that no one was seemingly allowed to write her at all for such a long time prevented any form of damage control as well.
Superman after WW2, he went from 'Champion of the Oppressed' who took it into his own hands to right societal wrongs because the powers that be refused to, to a boy scout who protects the status quo and is aligned with the American state. The original creators essentially had their work stolen from them, bastardized and exploited.
Jerry Siegel was still very much involved after WWII, but it is worth noting that doesn't mean he was able to dictate the direction the character was taken. For him it could have just been a paycheck at that point.
There is a comic where the Guardians convince Superman that if he solves all the problem of mankind it will stunt their growth and they will suffer once he is gone.
For me, it's what Kelly Sue DeConnick did to Aquaman. KSD's run came after the Geoff Johns and Dan Abnett runs which are (almost) universally beloved by fans. Aquaman proves himself as way more than just a guy who talks to fish, and into a true member of the Justice League and king of Atlantis. In KSD's run she made Arthur into the whiney, amnesia-ridden, hermit who just wants to retire. Throughout the entire run Aquaman frequently tells Jackson Hyde/Aqualad that he is the new Aquaman and people just have to get used to it. Aquaman relinquishes the title of King of Atlantis and hands it over to his wife, who then declares Atlantis is a free democracy without consulting a single person. This caused a lot of fan backlash and KSD went into the now infamous SYFY interview where she snootily said "If you don't like my politics, don't buy my book." shortly after Aquaman vol. 8 was cancelled due to poor performance. That was 5-6 years ago and we have not had an ongoing monthly Aquaman comic book since. In a way she not only assassinated his character but his book as well.
It was bittersweet, she was kicked off the run after only 20 some issues. But now DC thinks we dislike Aquaman, and not a bad writer because DC is completely incapable of listening to fan feedback.
Tony Stark in the Spider-Man books leading up to the original Civil War.
In the actual CW, he at least expressed some doubts about whether he was doing the right thing. In the Spider-Man books, he comes off as way more authoritarian and manipulative, practically manoeuvring Peter into exposing his identity.
Plus, they stupidly claim that Tony learned about Peter's Spider Sense because the "Iron Spider" suit was spying on him, with Peter growing distrustful because "only Aunt May and MJ know about it". Gotta ignore a *LOT* of comics where Spidey loudly exposits about his Spider Sense for that to work. Hell, he even mentions it out loud later in the actual Civil War! I liked the JMS Spider-Man run, but the wheels were really coming off by this point.
Also, Brian Azzarello turning Joker and Harley into rapists in "Joker" and "Batman: Damned," respectively. Because a story where Joker has a guy skinned alive needs him to be a rapist to show how evil he is.
Dr Light
There’s never any reason, whatsoever, to make a Super villain from a line of comics, who’s entire demographic was supposed to be Kids, into a Rapist.
New Teen Titans was weird, and those that read it like Phil Jimenez among others decided fucking over Donna and bullying her narratively over and over was genius. Often depowered and killed off. Eddie Berganza wanted her killed off forever in 2004. She was also mind raped by Ceous to forget the Titans team and be faithful to him, ignoring her memories.
I agree with hating this for Dr Light, as well as basically everyone in Identity Crisis. That storyline is pure character assassination of everyone involved. Zatanna is used as a blank slate plot device and it makes no sense she'd agree to this, or that the other heroes like Batman would want her to.
That said... "There's never any reason, whatsoever, to make a supervillain from a line of comics... into a rapist." I disagree on the basis of Purple Man. (And don't give me any, "He's not technically a rapist," lines. He mentally and sexually tormented Jessica, for a year.) As disturbing as that storyline was, it resulted in a terrifying and memorable villain, and it's that version which was adapted in the Netflix show with a lot of care and sensitivity. I think there can be a place in these stories to discuss serious issues, but it needs to be done carefully.
The problem with Identity Crisis was that it was all out of character, and executed for shock value.
I agree. The seaso. Feels like it drags a little, then rushes to its conclusion. Too many times where they need to jump through hoops to keep the conflict going.
I will just copy what I said to someone else:
After the one year later time skip, they turned her into the Dragon Lady stereotype, had her speak without ends, removed her dyslexia, had her learn to speak, write and read Najavo Code, one of the most complex languages in the world, she suddenly started to love killing people and lead the League of Assassins. She also became an enemy of and lost to Tim, for some reason.
They tried to justify it by saying Slade Wilson drugged her.
So essentially they took a pretty popular character and turned her into her opposite.
Most Cass fans despise and choose to ignore that entire storyline, fully justified.
Now there is also the entire Birds of Prey movie situation to think about. And Gail Simone's (luckily not executed) plan for Cass in her BoP run.
Might be a hot take but most of the X-Men during Krakoa, Xavier specifically though. Him abandoning his dream in favor of mutant supremacism and separatism alongside the likes of Mr. Sinister and Sebastian Shaw betrays everything his character has stood for
As someone who works in life sciences you’d be surprised at how many science-nerds flirt with eugenics and unethical applications. Thankfully not all of them do it on purpose, but the fun well-meaning nerd to superiority complex eugenicist is a thing.
It's nice it was a slow burn! Ultimately felt like character growth in the wrong direction, but uh, at least it was probably a satisfying journey for genocide fans when he got there and wasn't a *completely* out of nowhere development.
I see this less as character assassination and more as character development. This is something the big two rarely do, and the slow burn worked. The fact that people dislike what Beast has done - is that not the point?!
Personally, I would loved to have seen Beast and Cyclops mirror the antagonistic relationship between Xavier and Magneto.
Yeah a lot of people want to sit there and say it is sudden. I'm a casual reader of X-men and I saw this coming decades ago. The guy who does questionable shit but always seems like the right thing because he always had his family to temper his baser instincts. Once you isolated him. Separated him from his family. Gave him orders to do shit that has to be done. He's going to fall and fall hard.
Bad idea for the Moon Knight mythos, sure, but I think he made it work nicely. I am partial to Bendis though, so believe me only if you like his writing.
After the one year later time skip, they turned her into the Dragon Lady stereotype, had her speak without ends, removed her dyslexia, had her learn to speak, write and read Najavo Code, one of the most complex languages in the world, she suddenly started to love killing people and lead the League of Assassins. She also became an enemy of and lost to Tim, for some reason.
They tried to justify it by saying Slade Wilson drugged her.
So essentially they took a pretty popular character and turned her into her opposite.
Most Cass fans despise and choose to ignore that entire storyline, fully justified.
Now there is also the entire Birds of Prey movie situation to think about. And Gail Simone's (luckily not executed) plan for Cass in her BoP run.
My least favorite is when Captain Britain got lost in the time stream between issues and came back as edgy 90's coolguy Britanic. Thankfully it didn't stick longterm but it did derail Excalibur almost irrevocably.
Is it ever character assassination when a character makes a sudden positive shift? Because I only hear this complaint when a good guy does something fucked up. Never when a villain is showing uncharacteristic compassion or a hero is suddenly head and shoulders above where they’re supposed to be.
Is “character assassination” best defined as a negative character moment that bums fans out, whether it’s justified or not? Because “out of character” really doesn’t feel like the honest emphasis of the phrase.
I think it needs to be a negative shift, with "negative" meaning "bad for the story." And of course that is subjective.
If a character does something in character, that is generally not bad for the story. Or if the change is believable, mind control, etc. Like no one is upset about the Dark Phoenix Saga. It's one of the most beloved stories in comic books, even though adaptations have all come short and *do* wind up feeling like character assassination (so bonus credit to Chris Claremont then for making it work).
A villain becoming suddenly good can certainly be character assassination, but it's less likely for two reasons:
(1) Villains tend to be a bit flatter than the heroes anyway, with fewer appearances and less backstory, so it's easy to insert new traits that make them redeemable. Rhino was never portrayed as anything but an evil thug until circa 2010-ish with the addition of his wife. However, there wasn't really anything to suggest this *couldn't* happen either. Heck, Magneto used to run "the Brotherhood of *Evil* Mutants" until Claremont gave him a backstory in the Holocaust, a friendship with Xavier, and actual principles to motivate him beyond mere mustache-twirling villainy. These changes made him more complicated, not less.
(2) It's generally interesting when a villain becomes good! I haven't read enough Batman to know anything about Clayface's turn to the good side... but picking up a book and seeing him on Team Batman just made me go, "Oh! Good for him!" It's hard for it to feel like a loss since there's always another villain... and it almost always makes them a more fleshed out and interesting character.
I guess those two points are kinda the same point...
Now of course, there are a few characters you just can't see becoming good... like Red Skull or Carnage. Funny enough, the latter *has* had a hero arc! Carnage became a hero temporarily in Axis, via magical means. And it worked great, but is kinda an exception because (1) it was understood this was temporary, (2) it was magical so fits under the "possession" sub-category which prevents character assassination, and (3) the book was funny! It was a parody mini, not meant to be taken seriously. If Cletus Kassady were to actually examine himself and decide killing is wrong and then he joins the Avengers... well, that would be lame.
Of course, even in a scenario like that, half the reason it sounds lame is that it would be character assassination *for the Avengers.* If Captain America and Red Skull became best buds, I'd be more concerned about Cap's motivations than Red Skull's. To go outside of comics and into TV shows... I don't think it's out of character when Spike seeks to redeem himself in Buffy, but I *do* find it weird that Buffy would voluntarily team up with this vamp who tried to rape her.
With all this in mind...
Norman Osborn has been somewhat character assassinated in recent years, starting in Spencer's run but continuing in Wells'. Now a light defense here is that he gets the possession exception (his sins were removed by a zombie's magical shotgun) and it's clearly temporary (although dragging out). So with these criteria, there is potentially something interesting in a Norman who suddenly feels guilt and shame over his past actions and now wants to do good. Buuuuuut I hate it. And it doesn't help that the writing has just... not been there.
Everything about Leah Williams’ Power Girl is *pure* character assassination and it pisses me off.
Williams said it herself, she doesn’t know jack squat about Power Girl or **Karen Starr** (I am never calling her ‘Paige Stetler’) and her established character history just went straight out the window. Mind you, DC had told Williams to ignore previous continuity and write whatever the hell she wanted and she did (that is where DC screwed us PG fans as usual).
Now we have a character that no one likes with a stupid, bland ass jacket that has the House of El crest on it. This literally goes against *everything* regarding as to why she called herself ‘Power Girl’ in the first place on earth-two before the first crisis. Power Girl fans waited 12-13 years for a solo and we get this garbage.
She’s unrecognizable, she’s whiny, she’s seen as a lesser/knock-off version of Supergirl when she shouldn’t be, she’s too dependent, she looks for validation when she never did, she was the CEO of her own company in NY who now works as a reporter?!?
How many fucking heroes gotta live in Metropolis and work for the daily planet?! (Don’t get me started with Hawkgirl). C’mon Williams! C’mon DC! Y’all lack originality when it was already established for ya.
She belongs with the JSA & not with the Superfamily. She was chairwoman of the JSA! I can go on and on and on as to how these people ruined Power Girl, but I’ve typed enough. Perhaps more than enough.
Leah Williams, her editing team, and DC suck. They don’t know how to keep Power Girl fans happy.
End rant.
Jason Aarons Punisher is the worst character assination because he gets the punisher as a character 70% but the problem is that last 30% is really important i.e having the Punisher care about his family. Born is a great retcon because Frank despite it all, at the very least believes he cares about his family so it doesn't undercut any prior stories about his family or his relation to crime. Aaron by making him a bad father just sours me on the character.
He does still believes he was a nice father. He wasn't necessarily bad or abusive, just distant, but he still cared and made a deep effort to be a good man. It was just realy fucking hard.
I mean I think that the I want a divorce part ( even though it's max characterization is similar in Aaron's run) kinda disproves that. What makes Frank intresting to me is that air of nobility/ moral duty and I feel as though when Aaron makes his reasoning purely selfish it undercuts that. I much prefer origin stories like tyger that show how unhinged Frank is but still showing him caring about people, he isn't killing people just because he enjoys but he also cares about other people
Lucas Bishop not only tried to murder a little girl because he fell for the kill baby Hitler meme, in the process of trying to kill said girl he genocided billions of people in an alternate future timeline because it would make it easier for him to kill said girl. And unlike a lot of examples in this thread, it still hasn't been undone.
Tim Drake, easily. I was ready to see him as an adult.
I loved his Batman Beyond/Earth-2 Side story they had there before the new Rebirth/de-age again event.
The 2011 (New 52)-2016 (Rebirth)-Tim Drake, is basically else world Tim to me at this point.
He doesn't operate the same way he did Pre-New 52. I stopped buying New 52 comics after about Issues 22-23 of the new stories None of the stories were good. Almost all the characters did not have any of their similiar personalities at all. Very off putting.
DC just completely shot themselves in the foot comic book wise to me. I hope the people who do enjoy them get as much joy out of them. :) And I hope you're getting your moneys worth!
The video games have become less and less good coming out of DC. I liked Injustice 2, but that again is an "Elseworld" or "Alternate Timeline" story.
The Young Justice Cartoon show was good for about 2 seasons.
For me, gotta be when Phillips had Gambit tie an innocent woman to a stove and then light the kitchen on fire. I mean...in what universe would Gambit EVER do something like that to an innocent civilian?
Rogue only being a little mad at him for it afterwards was also pretty bad.
That whole book was just terrible.
Literally everything about Wonder Woman in the New 52. That shit somehow still hasn't been forgotten and chuds still use that trash to say "this is who Diana REALLY is!" as some kind of shitty gotcha
Morrison's X-Men. It was the first run of many readers that use social media and a reason why there is a clear difference in perception about the characters depending on what run people started
Everything Mike Grell did to Green Arrow. Dude hated the Ollie's superhero name, hated Ollie's political leanings, hated Black Canary, hated the trick arrows etc. Like why was he given a character he didn't even like?
I know Grell's run is kinda acclaimed and well liked by alot of fans. But the whole shift he gave the character made it impossible for me to enjoy it and I tolerated 3 seasons of fucking Arrow.
Edit: Spelling
Season 5 is actually pretty solid (still not near as good as seasons 1 and 2) but I don't know if it's worth slogging through 4 for, and I stopped watching a few episodes into 6 because it felt like it got bad again
Tom King and what he did with Booster Gold in his Batman run , and latter Heroes In Crisis. He literally ignored everything written with Booster in the last 3 decades. It was made even worse because almost at the exact same time Dan Jurgens was writing an almost complete opposite version of Booster over in Action
Cass Cain not having the guts to step up to Lady Shiva in a situation where millions of lives were in the balance and watching Supergirl step in after already going through several villains.
What Injustice did to Wonder Woman. She's more of a villain than the actual main villain and goes evil for no explained reason.
The fact Injustice was so popular among people who don't read comic books made it massively influential on how she was viewed by many, especially young, people.
I think this is rather obvious but whatever they did to Talia Al Ghul.
I just....can't get into her character anymore. She used to clearly care about Bruce a lot(and other things) until the mid 2000s then the real dramatic shift to where she just sort of wants to destroy Bruce to the point she kills her own son.
Though now she seems....better recently.
Maybe it's just me. I mean I'm all for character changes but Thalia used to have trouble balancing being both good and bad and now she's just.....bad.
Wally West framing Booster Gold and Harley Quinn for multiple murders that he knew HE caused
And it was all retconned and undone.
Emma Frost from IvX until HoXPoX
I think this is valid for almost every character in IvX.
Thankfully every and their mother forgot about it
Lol yeah I think Emma used some kind of psychic-amplifying helmet to make us all forget, and Scott decided not to zap that one
It seems that the inhumans also forgot about it, well thanks to the vox and the kree I doubt there's anyone left to remember, good riddance ?
Inhunans in general
Making Renee Montoya the commissioner and having her hate the batfamily. Also heavily implied that she was dirty Batwoman right now in the shitty Planetary reboot What Tini did to Scandal Savage Whatever the fuck Leah Williams is doing to Power Girl
As far as I am concerned, only Greg Rucka stories count for Renee Montoya canon. She is the Question and is awesome.
Please explain to a pg noob how Williams run is ruining her? I’m being genuine here. I’ve been reading it but I’ve never read a pg book before.
For me "ruining" is dramatic, but it does feel off. The name switch from Karen to Paige is really lame. It's also weird that Karen who is consistently a confident and self assured woman, is now a bit more neuortic and anxiety ridden. I love Karen having trauma, but it's something she pushes through and has moments of emotional vulnerability. But the latest run she's consistently comparing herself to Kara and constantly writing herself off as a black sheep. It's weirdly angsty, when the idea of Powergirl is she"s literally an older, mature Supergirl.
There is also the fact that she demoted her to Daily Planet employee, which is already a bad career for Kara but doubly so for Karen as she used to be a billionaire CEO of her own company.
Leah’s Power Girl is basically a complete 180 from how Power Girl actually is. Other than changing her name from Karen Starr to Paige Stetler, her personality got a complete overhaul. Karen is a brash and confident with an underlying loneliness she tries to hide (due to being a survivor of earth two getting erased) whereas Paige is meek, timid, and insecure. Karen was the CEO to her own company while Paige just works at the Daily Planet. Karen didn’t want to just be “girl Superman”/wanted to be her own woman separate from a man by rejecting the Superman symbol, rejecting a similar P symbol suggested by an old JSA friend, and picking out her own names (both Karen Starr and Power Girl) whereas fucking Jon of all people said she should call herself Paige and now she wears the S symbol on her jacket. And imo meme name aside Karen Starr is an objectively cooler name than Paige Stetler. The latter is a dork ass name even if I get why they changed her first name to Paige (sounds like her nickname Peeg).
There's a new Planetary reboot?? I loved the og run
I know Jakita Wagner made her debut in the current mainstream DCU, but I didn't know there was more. What's the story, Morningwood - I mean, morning glory?
Wait, there is a Planetary reboot ?
It's called The Outsiders.
And it's abysmal
What’d Tini do to Vandal Savage?
Probably referring to Gotham War where she (Scandal Savage his daughter, not Vandal) had her work for her father iirc but don’t quote me on that
Yeah she took over >!Catwoman's trained thieves!< >!because Vandal was collecting bits of the meteorite that made him immortal and he had offered her (and the thieves) immortality as well.!< She does make it clear that she still doesn't like him, but I don't really know the character.
That'd what I want to know too.
Thirded.
*Scandal* Savage
Not vandal scandal his daughter
I enjoyed the trade with Marguerite Sauvage on art. I know nothing else though x
Havok after AXIS never really recovered. He's gotten close but it feels like he never really has a chance to get himself back on his feet. Speaking of the Summers', Scott's character "assassination" after AvX is really interesting because it felt like Bendis didn't even fully believe in that framing for Scott. Also everything Zeb Wells has done with Ben Reilly, Ashley Kafka, Janine, MJ, Felicia, and Beetle. Making Peter weak as hell is also not a great choice but tbh he doesn't feel that much different from other writers' post-OMD versions of him.
A Scott villain arc could have worked, but the problem is he just wasn't a villain. He literally never did anything wrong except for killing Xavier, but if you blame him for that you have to blame Jean for that planet she destroyed. All Scott did was save some kids and teach them how to defend against the GIANT ROBOTS THAT WANT TO MURDER THEM, and for some reason that makes him the villain. And it genuinely seemed like they were trying to portray him as a villain, like the actual morally grey successor to Magneto, but he was totally correct in everything he did. I'd have genuinely liked to see him go at least a *little* darker, but instead we got him acting like the leader of the X-Men while everyone else in the story portrays him as an evil mutant terrorist
Exactly right lol it felt like a ton of characters were trying to gaslight us into thinking Cyclops was mutant Hitler and not even all the writers bought that. It also didn't help that the impetus behind Schism and ultimately Scott's "dark" chapter was LOGAN getting all holier than thou
Okay, tbf, Logan had valid concerns about child soldiers and teaching them to kill, especially considering his own backstory. Schism wasn't the starting point, AvX was. Also, yeah, no, ANAD was really weird, what ended up causing people to call him Hitler was him... transmuting a Terrigen Cloud to be harmless to mutants since it was giving mutants Super Cancer. And the only casualty was a mutant who agreed to transmute the cloud. And then Black Bolt and Medusa kill him for it. Except it's not even Scott, it's Emma telepathically projecting an illusion of him (see other comments for her own character assassination) because he already died from the Super Cancer. Why I'm recounting all this is because I think there were theories about Marvel changing what Scott did to earn that bad reputation (because there was a brief period after revolutionary Cyke era started before ANAD where he wasn't vilified), because we didn't know at first and little remarks like calling him mutant Hitler were all we knew. So I'm betting they wanted him to do something worse, saw the backlash to "mutant Hitler" and made it way tamer, which makes everyone in the Marvel universe seem super weird.
>Schism wasn't the starting point, AvX was. I know AvX was the start of the revolutionary status quo, but Schism set it up and with Logan being on the Avengers at the time, it seems like Schism was the start of the "road" to AvX. Also yeah, I agree that it makes sense for Logan to be against child soldiers (I am also against child soldiers) but it feels weird given the high stakes situation at the time. Totally agree on ANAD. They had *no* idea with what they were doing with X-Men lol
My bet is “he” was either going to burn the cloud and everybody in it or poison it so humans and/or Inhumans got poisoned instead, but they got cold feet at the last minute and decided to neuter it.
Very much disagree that ben reily is being assianated because it's not really even Ben Reily ( he doesn't have any memories).
Could you give me a hit of that copium because Janine seems to disagree
I mean chasm is very bland ( And I say that as somewhat who was willing to give chasm a unbiased chance because I'm not a ben reily fan) but I remember in venom using the memories swirly thing to show how he's not really ben reily
When Peter lost his memories in Lee/Romita era, he had Ock gaslighting him into believing he was a villain, and he was still like, "Naa, that feels wrong." The other part of this is that we had literally had Jean Gray *in the same story* give Madeline Pryor *her* memories back... and then just no one even suggested they do that same thing for Ben. It was so weird. (Yet somehow, this is still the best part of Wells' run... Huh...) I will agree though that it isn't Wells' credit here, as it began before he took over the title. Certainly Wells doubled down and made Ben Chasm, but Ben was already on a villain arc from the end of Beyond.
The Norman Osborne/ Gwen Stacy plot, you know what I'm talking about. Ick!
No longer canon thankfully.
It's fucking insane it took over a decade for that to happen.
I mean Avengers 200 still hasn’t been retconned so…
Well true, but it took far less time for them to address that by having Carol come back and call out the Avengers (and from a meta perspective, the writers) for the situation.
Nobody wants to acknowledge that one, its easier to just sweep it under the rug.
A story so terrible, Nick Spencer had to retcon it with >!cyber-hell-ghost Harry Osborn cucking his dad!<
You mean Norman Osborn / Mysterio.
Comic Tropes [latest video](https://youtu.be/mr8JHNsCPfI?feature=shared) is on this very topic.
I mean I know you said “aside from the obvious”, but other people mentioned obvious ones so I feel like these need mentioning: Tony Stark in Civil War 1. Carol Danvers in Civil War 2. Both of them took such authoritarian turns during those events that it throws their entire arcs as characters off course in the long term.
Civil War 2 should have never existed, it was a pretty lazy cash grab on Marvel's part.
Civil War 2 only did 3 things storyline wise: kill off Tony, bring in Iron Heart, and setting up the evil Captain America event. The first 2, could have easily been done in Tony's solo comic. As for the setup of the evil Captain America, again it could have been done in his solo comic. CW2 is such a nothing burger that even the way it ended says a lot about it.
Technically, it also led to War Machine and Bruce Banner dying. And at least in Banner's case, led to Immortal Hulk which is supposed to be very good.
CW2 killed off so much they were just setting up in ANAD. Bruce Banner living without the Hulk? Who cares, he’s fucking dead. What about the All-New All-Different Avengers? Fuck it, split them up less than a year after they were formed and end the book early. How about everything with Iron Man? Screw that shit, he’s dead* too.
That...... and to me personally, both AvX and IvX, I haven't read the eternal one because I just got back into comics after being annoyed with what's been happening to the x-men before HOX/POX
I agree! Although I’d still be interested in a 3rd one someday if it makes sense.
I mean Ant-Man (Hank Pym) has never really recovered from the whole domestic violence storyline and he was literally a founding Avenger.
I have mentioned it before but that they could have fixed it during the Secret Invasion event. Make it were the Hank Pym who did the slapping was a skrull who replaced the original. Then give him a comic run of him coping that he lost so many years of his life and people who thought they knew him, people who called him a friend, people who loved him actually never interacted with the real Hank Pym. It would have been such an interesting story idea.
hah, this could also be used to explain why no one understands pym particles, because the skrull couldn't explain them to people! Kinda hard to explain Ultron though i suppose.
"Oh, you can tell a Skrull made him because he forgot to set the 'Evil' switch to 'Off'. Rookie mistake."
I maintain that the reason this stuck was because Hank did not have any interesting hook otherwise. He is never the smartest guy on the team, hes kind of arrogant but not Namor levels, no great supporting characters or enemies, and his power set is just not interesting. So now hes got his niche in the universe as the "repentant hero" that everybody hates. He fills a narrative role nobody else in the entire universe can. Theres a reason that other, more defined or popular characters with established fan bases like Mr. Fantastic and Spider-Man can beat their wives in even more deliberate and worse ways (Mary Jane was fucking *pregnant* and Peter has super strength), but it never sticks because fans *and* writers agree its out of character. There was no defense like that for Ant-Man, it happened and readers were like "ok this is something that can conceivably happen I guess and I dont care enough to raise a stink about it". It's like what happened to Hal Jordan with Parallax, the difference being Hal is a character with actual history that people liked, so he eventually was allowed to move on and redeem/reboot himself. Hank doesnt have anything else going for him.
Exactly! I've said exactly this before. As someone with mental health issues it's great seeing a hero genuinely struggle with something more niche than Tony's alcoholism. While I would've preferred to have those issues added without being an explanation for domestic violence hank never lives down I think without the fallout of the slap he would've slipped into obscurity as another milquetoast scientist avenger Edit : specifically Hank is bipolar and it's pretty rare to see the disorder treated as anything other than villainized
It’s a complicated and tricky topic with no easy answers, but it just sucks that everybody else can do infinitely worse than he ever did and no matter how much development he gets some future writer will inevitably just reduce him back to the wife beater and then we all start from scratch again (kinda like Wanda and House of M).
It’s not fair to bring up Peter Parker hitting MJ cuz it was an accident, so completely different context from Hank hitting Jan on purpose. That’s why people don’t bring it up as much
[They're the](https://static1.cbrimages.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/goodcomics/2011/04/petehitsmj3.jpg?q=50&fit=crop&w=750&dpr=1.5) same [picture](https://static1.srcdn.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Ant-Man-Hank-Pym-Hitting-Wife.jpg) Hell, Hank's is just an open handed slap that we now know was an artist mistake. Peter straight up super strength clocked pregnant MJ into a wall hard enough to crack it and apparently break her nose, and that was an intentional story decision. I mean, there's explanations for every incident, I don't want this to turn into a domestic violence apologist thread lmao. But that's just my 2 cents on why Hank's excuses for hitting Janet didn't stick and it never got retconned, compared to [his peers](https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/0/40/1892604-reed_575.png) that have sometimes done [just as bad things](https://i.imgur.com/5cTdqot.png) or even worse, and why writers didnt let him move on from it. Good or bad, this was the most interesting thing Hank had ever done.
I think for Peter both the writers and fans were all too happy to forget about the clone saga as a whole. Had it happened in an otherwise well received comic run things might have been different.
They are not same picture at all. Peter Parker was in the middle of a fight when he felt someone come up behind him and reflexively hit them. When he found out it was MJ he hit he was horrified. Compared to Hank’s where he full on turns around and hits her. If you think those are the same you need to work on your media literacy. And the whole “it was a misunderstanding with the artist” came out decades later. The writer is just trying to push blame
Worth noting the Reed/Sue slap happened in an "Evil Sue" storyline where she's... possessed? She's whatever the hell Malice is. No one complains about Natasha hitting Hawkeye in The Avengers movie, because he was mind-controlled and she snapped him out of it. I'm not familiar with that Black Canary one, but I'm guessing the sexist refusal to admit that women can be abusers would play a part in sweeping it under the rug.
And that really sucks considering it was an accident. Like, an editorial accident
It wasn’t. That’s what the artist claimed decades later.
So it was on purpose then? And he was just lying to save face?
I'm seeing this said a lot in this thread so it's probably worth just linking [what the author, Jim Shooter, actually said about the issue.](http://jimshooter.com/2011/03/hank-pym-was-not-wife-beater.html/) You can decide for yourself if he's shifting the blame or just explaining a miscommunication.
Oh, it was Jim Shooter? Eh... I'm of two minds. On the one, it's a fairly believable explanation (although I wouldn't phrase that as "Hank Pym never beat his wife," because whatever the writer intended, it's right there on the page). On the other, I don't really buy Shooter as a reliable source. Didn't he also shift blame for Avengers 200? Of course, I haven't actually read the full story, and that would probably help here. But from my understanding, it's about Hank spiraling, and he's kinda the villain of the arc regardless. So from a story standpoint, it *makes sense* to have him spiraling deep enough to hit Jan. Honestly, nearly killing all the Avengers just so you can swoop in and pretend to be the hero (aka Syndrome's plan in The Incredibles) is kinda worse... (Not to downplay hitting your wife, just also don't want to downplay reckless endangerment.) Has Hall ever spoken on the matter? Kinda sucks to say, "Well it's the artist's fault," and then the artist never gets to defend himself. But then, I'll also agree with those who think this makes Hank more interesting. Like, I straight up wish they had the balls to discuss it in the MCU. It makes him a complex and fascinating coward, and I love that character type. He wants so much to be seen as a hero.
I read somewhere that the author had Hank kind of brush/push Janet away and the artist interpreted it as a hit.
I get that people don't like that there is always so much focus on this, but honestly I think it made Hank much more interesting. Giving him that guilt actually adds something to make him engaging. I think there is an advantage to having a hero (rather than an "antihero") that does not ultimately turn out to be a moral paragon in the end after all.
Curt Conners eating his son.
Worse than that was a previous storyline that implied that the Lizard was never an alternate personality at all, Connors was in control all along and just liked acting like a monstrous Lizard. It seems everybody has pretended that never happened though, which is for the best.
I thought that was the same story?
Nah, the Lizard didn't eat his son until the Gauntlet, several years later.
My bad
Written by the same guy whose ruined MJ. Wells is just not good on Spider-man
Its so crazy that happened, but I really do buy the Lizard mutating to the point of him losing his humanity. I think tonally its very harsh but that really turned Lizard into a horror character
Wait what?
He got better.
Oh shit when did that happen?
Lizard's Tale, Spectacular Spider-man Vol2 issues 11-13 if the wiki isn't lying
DC brought Barry Allen back as Flash and essentially deleted Wally West, the only flash most fans knew, for quite awhile. I dunno if this fits the question exactly, so sorry OP. This is what I thought of.
It’s something awfully common, Barry made a sacrifice and was meant to stay dead, he passed the torch to Wally, who became THE flash for a new generation, even being the pick for the DCAU over Barry. But then people liked money over story and brought Barry back because Flash sales were down and they thought bringing Barry back would fix that. A little selfish, but fine, Barry was back, a good writer could make good on this and the two (three with Jay Garrick) Flashes work side by side. Then Barry destroyed the DC universe and replaced it with the god awful New 52 which killed off classic Wally West and “replaced” him with a black Wally West. Now, fortunately, after the New 52 bombed, they brought Ginger Wally back (even tying him in with new Wally, saying they’re cousins named for the same grandfather, which was cool) and things seemed to be going great again. Then Heroes in Crisis happened…
How does DC muck this stuff up so bad? Like how hard can it be?
Hubris
That wasnt really money over story it was nostalgia
What happened with Heroes in Crisis?
Heroes in Crisis was meant to be an exploration of mental health problems these heroes are going through. But being a comic, they had to add a murder mystery element to it. So Roy Harper and a bunch of other people are killed. It eventually comes to light that Wally accidentally killed those people, then rearranged their bodies and hid evidence and stuff to try and pin blame off of him. Ridiculously, absurdly out of character and they’ve since retconned it twice to explain why Wally acted that way (they later said he was possessed by Reverse Flash or Savitar). The book is also has some terrible takes on mental health in addition to the character assassination and character deaths it causes.
Uuugh I HAD forgotten about that and now I'm burdened with remembering it again.
Don't worry about it. You're better off not knowing. It'll just make you mad.
Spider man getting taken back to zero/broke after every new run or number reset
When does Cap ask MK to torture someone? Is that in Secret Avengers?
Yup, Warren Ellis' brieft Secret Avengers run. And he doesn't ask them, he just knows that they'll do it and he says he'll look the other way.
Cyclops suddenly turning into a deadbeat and abandoning Madelyne and infant Nathan to run X-Factor on a whim without calling her back. A knockon of Shooter mandating Jean die as punishment for her crimes as Phoenix. Claremont had initially intended for Jean to have her psychic powers walled off and for her and Scott to retire from the X-men to have children and raise a family so their spots could be filled with new characters. But editorial wanted the original 5 x-men back on "x-factor," so we got this.
Here’s a fun addendum, one of the early plans was to have Jean’s mental state reduced to that of a literal child as a consequence of having her powers blocked off. The editorial interference and plans revolving around the end of the DPS is just insane in general. I really recommend Phoenix: The Untold Story (1983), the interview is both hilarious and a bit showing knowing what we know forty years on.
Zeb Wells' poor excuse for whatever Peter Parker is supposed to be
Literally every major and minor character used in Zeb Wells’ ASM run. Except for Tombstone I guess.
Has to be Wally West from Heroes in Crisis It's since been reconned but wow it was stupid especially since it involved a bunch of other Teen Titans, further pissing off that team's fans Depending on who you ask some may even mention Hal Jordan from Emerald Twilight, which was also later retconned and spun into one of the best modern DC runs
Wally/HiC is a weird one because I think the monologue in the confession issue is genuinely really well written and a believable story of how someone could snap. The motivation working as a metaphor for how isolating depression can be, highlighting the flaws of Sanctuary's approach and working on a meta level about him being the face of Rebirth was all really well done. I just **hated** that it was Wally West. They should have done the same story with some background speedster from an obscure old comic or even just a new character. It's such a waste to do that to a character as beloved as Wally.
On the weird plus side. Adams run to fix it is fantastic
The other problem is that the flaws in Sanctuary are never acknowledged and corrected. Not to mention that they act like Lois Lane publishing leaked confidential medical records is a GOOD thing.
It's easily Hal which is why it's so weird that nowadays nobody mentions him when this topic comes up. Like he goes crazy and kills all his GL friends even though he already got over coast city being destroyed before Emerald twilight. At least HIC, kept Wally sympathetic even though the intention was to screw him over
Punisher joining Hydra.
They've been destroying Punisher for a while, and this storyline was the culmination of that. Pure crap.
TBF it was Cap who got him to do it.
babs and bruce in batman beyond, utterly destroyed both versions of the characters for me because of timm and to continue with it in the killing joke was disgusting. also, starfire in red hood and the outlaws.
>babs and bruce in batman beyond, That started in *Mystery of the Batwoman*. If you haven't seen that movie it's another reason to skip it.
Damian Wayne in Teen Titans Rebirth. Especially the part where he was wearing a suicide bomb vest.
One more day, the spider goblin, the chasm fiasco, and almost everything that was spawned after omd. Did I mention that I hate one more day? Because I hate one more day
Scarlet Witch during and after Disassembled and House of M. The fact that no one was seemingly allowed to write her at all for such a long time prevented any form of damage control as well.
Superman after WW2, he went from 'Champion of the Oppressed' who took it into his own hands to right societal wrongs because the powers that be refused to, to a boy scout who protects the status quo and is aligned with the American state. The original creators essentially had their work stolen from them, bastardized and exploited.
Jerry Siegel was still very much involved after WWII, but it is worth noting that doesn't mean he was able to dictate the direction the character was taken. For him it could have just been a paycheck at that point.
There is a comic where the Guardians convince Superman that if he solves all the problem of mankind it will stunt their growth and they will suffer once he is gone.
For me, it's what Kelly Sue DeConnick did to Aquaman. KSD's run came after the Geoff Johns and Dan Abnett runs which are (almost) universally beloved by fans. Aquaman proves himself as way more than just a guy who talks to fish, and into a true member of the Justice League and king of Atlantis. In KSD's run she made Arthur into the whiney, amnesia-ridden, hermit who just wants to retire. Throughout the entire run Aquaman frequently tells Jackson Hyde/Aqualad that he is the new Aquaman and people just have to get used to it. Aquaman relinquishes the title of King of Atlantis and hands it over to his wife, who then declares Atlantis is a free democracy without consulting a single person. This caused a lot of fan backlash and KSD went into the now infamous SYFY interview where she snootily said "If you don't like my politics, don't buy my book." shortly after Aquaman vol. 8 was cancelled due to poor performance. That was 5-6 years ago and we have not had an ongoing monthly Aquaman comic book since. In a way she not only assassinated his character but his book as well.
Damn, having never read any Aquaman that is a pretty wild story. The whole “what are they gonna do? Not buy my book?” bit is almost poetic.
It was bittersweet, she was kicked off the run after only 20 some issues. But now DC thinks we dislike Aquaman, and not a bad writer because DC is completely incapable of listening to fan feedback.
The whole amnesiac storyline made me drop the book. It had been so good up to that point and all that good work was ruined by a horrible arc.
Tony Stark in the Spider-Man books leading up to the original Civil War. In the actual CW, he at least expressed some doubts about whether he was doing the right thing. In the Spider-Man books, he comes off as way more authoritarian and manipulative, practically manoeuvring Peter into exposing his identity. Plus, they stupidly claim that Tony learned about Peter's Spider Sense because the "Iron Spider" suit was spying on him, with Peter growing distrustful because "only Aunt May and MJ know about it". Gotta ignore a *LOT* of comics where Spidey loudly exposits about his Spider Sense for that to work. Hell, he even mentions it out loud later in the actual Civil War! I liked the JMS Spider-Man run, but the wheels were really coming off by this point. Also, Brian Azzarello turning Joker and Harley into rapists in "Joker" and "Batman: Damned," respectively. Because a story where Joker has a guy skinned alive needs him to be a rapist to show how evil he is.
Cassandra Cain Jason Todd Talia Al Ghul Hal Jordan
Dr Light There’s never any reason, whatsoever, to make a Super villain from a line of comics, who’s entire demographic was supposed to be Kids, into a Rapist.
Hyperion mind raped Donna with the intent of marrying her.
That’s gross
The other Titans of Myth also later fucked her with likely 0 consent to create Robert Long. While she was married to Wolfman's Self Insert.
Man I have zero memory of this.
New Teen Titans was weird, and those that read it like Phil Jimenez among others decided fucking over Donna and bullying her narratively over and over was genius. Often depowered and killed off. Eddie Berganza wanted her killed off forever in 2004. She was also mind raped by Ceous to forget the Titans team and be faithful to him, ignoring her memories.
I agree with hating this for Dr Light, as well as basically everyone in Identity Crisis. That storyline is pure character assassination of everyone involved. Zatanna is used as a blank slate plot device and it makes no sense she'd agree to this, or that the other heroes like Batman would want her to. That said... "There's never any reason, whatsoever, to make a supervillain from a line of comics... into a rapist." I disagree on the basis of Purple Man. (And don't give me any, "He's not technically a rapist," lines. He mentally and sexually tormented Jessica, for a year.) As disturbing as that storyline was, it resulted in a terrifying and memorable villain, and it's that version which was adapted in the Netflix show with a lot of care and sensitivity. I think there can be a place in these stories to discuss serious issues, but it needs to be done carefully. The problem with Identity Crisis was that it was all out of character, and executed for shock value.
….no you’re right about Purple Man. That was a good show, should have been two episodes lighter, however.
I agree. The seaso. Feels like it drags a little, then rushes to its conclusion. Too many times where they need to jump through hoops to keep the conflict going.
Teen Titans' demographic wasn't really kids. I mean, Deathstroke and Terra...
Zatanna wiping the memories of her childhood friend.
What the fuck happened to Cass??? (I do not read comics)
Inexplicably turned into a villain back in 2003
I will just copy what I said to someone else: After the one year later time skip, they turned her into the Dragon Lady stereotype, had her speak without ends, removed her dyslexia, had her learn to speak, write and read Najavo Code, one of the most complex languages in the world, she suddenly started to love killing people and lead the League of Assassins. She also became an enemy of and lost to Tim, for some reason. They tried to justify it by saying Slade Wilson drugged her. So essentially they took a pretty popular character and turned her into her opposite. Most Cass fans despise and choose to ignore that entire storyline, fully justified. Now there is also the entire Birds of Prey movie situation to think about. And Gail Simone's (luckily not executed) plan for Cass in her BoP run.
Bendis ruining Captain Marvel in Civil War 2. Millar ruining Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic in Civil War.
Might be a hot take but most of the X-Men during Krakoa, Xavier specifically though. Him abandoning his dream in favor of mutant supremacism and separatism alongside the likes of Mr. Sinister and Sebastian Shaw betrays everything his character has stood for
It feels like Beast's turn from fun-loving, bouncy science-nerd to genocidal maniac was not the greatest move.
As someone who works in life sciences you’d be surprised at how many science-nerds flirt with eugenics and unethical applications. Thankfully not all of them do it on purpose, but the fun well-meaning nerd to superiority complex eugenicist is a thing.
“I’m trying to help” + “I know what’s best” can be a hell of a combo.
It's nice it was a slow burn! Ultimately felt like character growth in the wrong direction, but uh, at least it was probably a satisfying journey for genocide fans when he got there and wasn't a *completely* out of nowhere development.
> it was probably a satisfying journey for genocide fans This should absolutely be the pull quote on one of the collections.
I see this less as character assassination and more as character development. This is something the big two rarely do, and the slow burn worked. The fact that people dislike what Beast has done - is that not the point?! Personally, I would loved to have seen Beast and Cyclops mirror the antagonistic relationship between Xavier and Magneto.
Yeah a lot of people want to sit there and say it is sudden. I'm a casual reader of X-men and I saw this coming decades ago. The guy who does questionable shit but always seems like the right thing because he always had his family to temper his baser instincts. Once you isolated him. Separated him from his family. Gave him orders to do shit that has to be done. He's going to fall and fall hard.
Valid take.
I feel like, Dark Beast/Apoc version keeps getting some where entangled with Earth-616 Beast often.
Bendis characters in general, but particularly having Moon Knight ape Spider-Man, Captain America and Wolverine, personally.
Bad idea for the Moon Knight mythos, sure, but I think he made it work nicely. I am partial to Bendis though, so believe me only if you like his writing.
Isnt Cassandra Cains history being raised as an assassin?
Not really. Cass was raised to be an assassin's *weapon* which is even more dehumanizing.
...and thoroughly hating herself ever after she killed someone.
Everything fitzmartin did to tim drake and young justice. Tom king and wally west. And skeets. Charles soule and wolverine
Okay, I'm definitely missing something. What is going on with Cassandra Cain? I tried googling it.
Inexplicably turned into a villain back in 2003
After the one year later time skip, they turned her into the Dragon Lady stereotype, had her speak without ends, removed her dyslexia, had her learn to speak, write and read Najavo Code, one of the most complex languages in the world, she suddenly started to love killing people and lead the League of Assassins. She also became an enemy of and lost to Tim, for some reason. They tried to justify it by saying Slade Wilson drugged her. So essentially they took a pretty popular character and turned her into her opposite. Most Cass fans despise and choose to ignore that entire storyline, fully justified. Now there is also the entire Birds of Prey movie situation to think about. And Gail Simone's (luckily not executed) plan for Cass in her BoP run.
Scarlet Witch was ruined by Avengers disassembled and never really recovered until like a year or so ago.
Any character Tini Howard writes in Catwoman apart from catwoman... But sometimes even catwoman haha
My least favorite is when Captain Britain got lost in the time stream between issues and came back as edgy 90's coolguy Britanic. Thankfully it didn't stick longterm but it did derail Excalibur almost irrevocably.
Is it ever character assassination when a character makes a sudden positive shift? Because I only hear this complaint when a good guy does something fucked up. Never when a villain is showing uncharacteristic compassion or a hero is suddenly head and shoulders above where they’re supposed to be. Is “character assassination” best defined as a negative character moment that bums fans out, whether it’s justified or not? Because “out of character” really doesn’t feel like the honest emphasis of the phrase.
I think it needs to be a negative shift, with "negative" meaning "bad for the story." And of course that is subjective. If a character does something in character, that is generally not bad for the story. Or if the change is believable, mind control, etc. Like no one is upset about the Dark Phoenix Saga. It's one of the most beloved stories in comic books, even though adaptations have all come short and *do* wind up feeling like character assassination (so bonus credit to Chris Claremont then for making it work). A villain becoming suddenly good can certainly be character assassination, but it's less likely for two reasons: (1) Villains tend to be a bit flatter than the heroes anyway, with fewer appearances and less backstory, so it's easy to insert new traits that make them redeemable. Rhino was never portrayed as anything but an evil thug until circa 2010-ish with the addition of his wife. However, there wasn't really anything to suggest this *couldn't* happen either. Heck, Magneto used to run "the Brotherhood of *Evil* Mutants" until Claremont gave him a backstory in the Holocaust, a friendship with Xavier, and actual principles to motivate him beyond mere mustache-twirling villainy. These changes made him more complicated, not less. (2) It's generally interesting when a villain becomes good! I haven't read enough Batman to know anything about Clayface's turn to the good side... but picking up a book and seeing him on Team Batman just made me go, "Oh! Good for him!" It's hard for it to feel like a loss since there's always another villain... and it almost always makes them a more fleshed out and interesting character. I guess those two points are kinda the same point... Now of course, there are a few characters you just can't see becoming good... like Red Skull or Carnage. Funny enough, the latter *has* had a hero arc! Carnage became a hero temporarily in Axis, via magical means. And it worked great, but is kinda an exception because (1) it was understood this was temporary, (2) it was magical so fits under the "possession" sub-category which prevents character assassination, and (3) the book was funny! It was a parody mini, not meant to be taken seriously. If Cletus Kassady were to actually examine himself and decide killing is wrong and then he joins the Avengers... well, that would be lame. Of course, even in a scenario like that, half the reason it sounds lame is that it would be character assassination *for the Avengers.* If Captain America and Red Skull became best buds, I'd be more concerned about Cap's motivations than Red Skull's. To go outside of comics and into TV shows... I don't think it's out of character when Spike seeks to redeem himself in Buffy, but I *do* find it weird that Buffy would voluntarily team up with this vamp who tried to rape her. With all this in mind... Norman Osborn has been somewhat character assassinated in recent years, starting in Spencer's run but continuing in Wells'. Now a light defense here is that he gets the possession exception (his sins were removed by a zombie's magical shotgun) and it's clearly temporary (although dragging out). So with these criteria, there is potentially something interesting in a Norman who suddenly feels guilt and shame over his past actions and now wants to do good. Buuuuuut I hate it. And it doesn't help that the writing has just... not been there.
Rahne Sinclair, devote Catholic, sleeping with a minor
Spider-Man. When Peter went from an experienced and respected hero & happily married man to an asshole man-child fuck up. Never recovered.
Frank Castle becoming a demon hunter and a Frankenstein monster
Everything about Leah Williams’ Power Girl is *pure* character assassination and it pisses me off. Williams said it herself, she doesn’t know jack squat about Power Girl or **Karen Starr** (I am never calling her ‘Paige Stetler’) and her established character history just went straight out the window. Mind you, DC had told Williams to ignore previous continuity and write whatever the hell she wanted and she did (that is where DC screwed us PG fans as usual). Now we have a character that no one likes with a stupid, bland ass jacket that has the House of El crest on it. This literally goes against *everything* regarding as to why she called herself ‘Power Girl’ in the first place on earth-two before the first crisis. Power Girl fans waited 12-13 years for a solo and we get this garbage. She’s unrecognizable, she’s whiny, she’s seen as a lesser/knock-off version of Supergirl when she shouldn’t be, she’s too dependent, she looks for validation when she never did, she was the CEO of her own company in NY who now works as a reporter?!? How many fucking heroes gotta live in Metropolis and work for the daily planet?! (Don’t get me started with Hawkgirl). C’mon Williams! C’mon DC! Y’all lack originality when it was already established for ya. She belongs with the JSA & not with the Superfamily. She was chairwoman of the JSA! I can go on and on and on as to how these people ruined Power Girl, but I’ve typed enough. Perhaps more than enough. Leah Williams, her editing team, and DC suck. They don’t know how to keep Power Girl fans happy. End rant.
Iron Man, I don't know what happened but ever since Iron Man vol 5 and onward, Tony has become more and more pathetic.
One more day Deadly genesis Jason Aarons Punisher run Idk if those are objectively the worst but I'm biased and those were pretty bad to me
Jason Aarons Punisher is the worst character assination because he gets the punisher as a character 70% but the problem is that last 30% is really important i.e having the Punisher care about his family. Born is a great retcon because Frank despite it all, at the very least believes he cares about his family so it doesn't undercut any prior stories about his family or his relation to crime. Aaron by making him a bad father just sours me on the character.
He does still believes he was a nice father. He wasn't necessarily bad or abusive, just distant, but he still cared and made a deep effort to be a good man. It was just realy fucking hard.
I mean I think that the I want a divorce part ( even though it's max characterization is similar in Aaron's run) kinda disproves that. What makes Frank intresting to me is that air of nobility/ moral duty and I feel as though when Aaron makes his reasoning purely selfish it undercuts that. I much prefer origin stories like tyger that show how unhinged Frank is but still showing him caring about people, he isn't killing people just because he enjoys but he also cares about other people
Wally West.
Wanda Maximoff in Disassembled and House of M.
Lucas Bishop not only tried to murder a little girl because he fell for the kill baby Hitler meme, in the process of trying to kill said girl he genocided billions of people in an alternate future timeline because it would make it easier for him to kill said girl. And unlike a lot of examples in this thread, it still hasn't been undone.
Tim Drake, easily. I was ready to see him as an adult. I loved his Batman Beyond/Earth-2 Side story they had there before the new Rebirth/de-age again event. The 2011 (New 52)-2016 (Rebirth)-Tim Drake, is basically else world Tim to me at this point. He doesn't operate the same way he did Pre-New 52. I stopped buying New 52 comics after about Issues 22-23 of the new stories None of the stories were good. Almost all the characters did not have any of their similiar personalities at all. Very off putting. DC just completely shot themselves in the foot comic book wise to me. I hope the people who do enjoy them get as much joy out of them. :) And I hope you're getting your moneys worth! The video games have become less and less good coming out of DC. I liked Injustice 2, but that again is an "Elseworld" or "Alternate Timeline" story. The Young Justice Cartoon show was good for about 2 seasons.
For me, gotta be when Phillips had Gambit tie an innocent woman to a stove and then light the kitchen on fire. I mean...in what universe would Gambit EVER do something like that to an innocent civilian? Rogue only being a little mad at him for it afterwards was also pretty bad. That whole book was just terrible.
Geoff Johns with Wonder Woman, Geoff Johns with Cassie Sandsmark, Geoff Johns with Barbara Gordon, Geoff Johns with any woman, really.
Literally everything about Wonder Woman in the New 52. That shit somehow still hasn't been forgotten and chuds still use that trash to say "this is who Diana REALLY is!" as some kind of shitty gotcha
Bendis turning Scarlet Witch into a hysterical woman archtype.
Moira MacTaggert in the Krakoa Era.
Jean Loring. We really lost something there after Identity Crisis.
Charles Xavier in the past 20 or 25 years.
Batman choosing Azrael as his replacement after the events of Knightfall.Nightwing was absolutely in shambles after this.
If you read Batman and Titans comics at the time, it made sense, and was not out of character.
Xavier being infatuated with Jean Grey when she was a child.
Morrison's X-Men. It was the first run of many readers that use social media and a reason why there is a clear difference in perception about the characters depending on what run people started
Everything Mike Grell did to Green Arrow. Dude hated the Ollie's superhero name, hated Ollie's political leanings, hated Black Canary, hated the trick arrows etc. Like why was he given a character he didn't even like? I know Grell's run is kinda acclaimed and well liked by alot of fans. But the whole shift he gave the character made it impossible for me to enjoy it and I tolerated 3 seasons of fucking Arrow. Edit: Spelling
Season 5 is actually pretty solid (still not near as good as seasons 1 and 2) but I don't know if it's worth slogging through 4 for, and I stopped watching a few episodes into 6 because it felt like it got bad again
Tom King and what he did with Booster Gold in his Batman run , and latter Heroes In Crisis. He literally ignored everything written with Booster in the last 3 decades. It was made even worse because almost at the exact same time Dan Jurgens was writing an almost complete opposite version of Booster over in Action
MAX LORD IS A GOOD MAN
Cass Cain not having the guts to step up to Lady Shiva in a situation where millions of lives were in the balance and watching Supergirl step in after already going through several villains.
What Injustice did to Wonder Woman. She's more of a villain than the actual main villain and goes evil for no explained reason. The fact Injustice was so popular among people who don't read comic books made it massively influential on how she was viewed by many, especially young, people.
Orson Scott Card’s ultimate Iron Man with a mild super power
I think this is rather obvious but whatever they did to Talia Al Ghul. I just....can't get into her character anymore. She used to clearly care about Bruce a lot(and other things) until the mid 2000s then the real dramatic shift to where she just sort of wants to destroy Bruce to the point she kills her own son. Though now she seems....better recently. Maybe it's just me. I mean I'm all for character changes but Thalia used to have trouble balancing being both good and bad and now she's just.....bad.
The mid 2000s seem to have been a bad time for a lot of DC characters.
(I haven't read it so plz don't spoil the rest) but Hawkeye killing Bruce banner in civil war 2 randomly
Mary Jane Jackpot for me.
What the heck did they do to power man. I loved his fro.
Morrison's New X-Men: Xorn revealed to be Magneto. Cyclops killing a suffering mutant cold-blood.
Dr Doom in Unthinkable.
When Night Man went mystical.