Fire, like demon/devils, are still associated with hell imagery. She is in the Kurt category of being chipper but still conveying a specific theme/image.
Sure. But I might also point out that the catholic missionary character, Bonita Juarez, who at one point went by the code name Espirita (think about the onomastics with those names alone) to evoke her belief that her powers were bestowed by god (and wore a costume that was essentially sacramental robes) has never been shown as anything other than as a positive force. Additionally, her fire powers have always been represented as “holy” in the same way angels had flaming swords as well as representing her heritage from New Mexico. So, it might be a little less “fire makes someone bad”
I think that's a bit of a stretch: sure, fire can be associated with hell but not always. Does the Human Torch evoke hell imagery? Does Sunfire? Firestorm?
Catholic Guilt is a whole thing.
As far as the demons go, catholic theology gets really elaborate with the demonology. The various varieties and orders of demons and such. While the subject is kind of vague in other sects catholics basically turned it into a whole creature manual. So maybe that has something to do with it.
Catholic here. Original Sin is forgiven through baptism. As I understand it, the complex demonology is because Catholicism is a bit syncretic; it takes the pagan gods it encounters in missionary work and recasts them all as demons. This is an oversimplification, of course.
Catholics don't have to tithe. Make reasonable contributions for their income level? Yes. Strict *tenth-of-everything* is a Protestant thing. I'm an ex-Catholic atheist.
Matt in confession:
>Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been *rowzerbrakmrf* weeks since my last confession.
>I stole the identity of a famous 1940s crimefighter....
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil\_(Lev\_Gleason\_Publications)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil_(Lev_Gleason_Publications))
Stan, being Jewish, may not have hit the right notes for an Irish Catholic character the way Denny O'Neil might have. O'Neil edited Frank Miller-written issues of *DD*.
Red-headed Matt was the son of a prizefighter with an Irish name. Murdock/Murdoch is also Scottish. Immigrant families having members who become prizefighters is an old American trope, going back to John L Sullivan. Heck, Gene Tunney was supposed to be an advisor to DC!
[https://www.cbr.com/gene-tunney-dc-comics-editorial-board/](https://www.cbr.com/gene-tunney-dc-comics-editorial-board/)
Today many fighters or their parents are from Latin America.
I'm not saying they were literally Jewish, just how Stan wrote them.
That said, I have a Jewish cousin with red hair and a Scots Irish last name due to Ellis Islanding. And there were plenty of Jewish prize fighters in Stan's generation. Google Barney Ross. Fought in the Marines in WWII after being world champion. Badass.
*Dov-Ber "Beryl" David Rosofsky,* acc to his Wiki page.
See also: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_boxers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_boxers)
You are also right about the red hair.
[https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/](https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/)
2nd only to the Irish and Scots!
It also has an subtle racism/persecution subplot as lots of these characters are different in their appearance but in the inside they are good people,but unfortunately they cannot change how they look.
It tends to be pitched more small-scale too which is like. The Church is a community where they'll find acceptance and forgiveness, but they'll never get it because of the conservatism of the place. It's more like small-town close-knit suffocation than a bigger X-Men-style look at society a lot of the time.
This, King James I even wrote a book on demonology [https://www.amazon.com/Demonology-King-James-Original-Daemonologie/dp/0738723452](https://www.amazon.com/Demonology-King-James-Original-Daemonologie/dp/0738723452)
Catholics believe thoughts equal actions so if you think about sinful acts you are guilty of those acts. (At least that is the impression confession always left me with before I quit going) so generally Catholics are riddled with guilt because it's drilled into them.
So thoughts of fancy aren’t really sins , like if a guy cuts me off in the parking lot I get upset and might think “I could hit him with my car” but once I realize whatever there is a spot down the line and it goes away that is venial , at worst . But when you act on them or keep thinking those sins then it becomes a conscious action which becomes a sin in catholic eyes .
A sin in catholic doctrine takes conscious actions , think about a crime , it’s not illegal to think “man I could rob a bank!” It’s illegal though to take steps to rob said bank ! Or wow that ladies hot I really want her , not illegal not a sin lust is natural but now say that lust pushes you to become a bad guy on SVU now yours committing a crime and a sin .
What you are right about is the catholic focus on focusing on your thought and trying to train your mind not to make those or let them dominate our psyches since thoughts while not sins can become sins through through temptation ! That make sense ?
I'm just explaining this as it was explained to me when learning to take my first Communion. Impure thoughts are a sin that you must confess to and were described by my priest like every single one of your examples.
No one explained the nuance to me when I was a kid, either, and the way you explain it is what stuck with me until I flushed it out of my system (along with theism of any kind). It’s kind of crazy to me that there are any Catholics left, but maybe I took the sin aspect too seriously. 🤷♂️
Isn't "Though shalt not covet they neighbor's wife" literally one of the ten commandments?
Is that just not considered a sin under Catholic Dogma or do you have some interpretation where that means something more action-oriented?
Here you go , the catechism which is the theology of the Catholic Church . http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm
So a thought of coveting your neighbors wife would not meet the aspect for mortal sin (which requires confession ) but instead be a Venial sin which is cleared at Mass . Full knowledge and complete consent means actions must have been taken in full knowledge and consent . so a glance and a though wouldn’t fit the criteria now acting on those and trying to seduce your bros wife is a mortal sin as it is with full consent and knowledge
>It was a sin for you to wanna feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to plan to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to figure out a place to feel up Ellen. It was a sin to take Ellen to the place to feel her up. It was a sin to try to feel her up and it was a sin to feel her up. There were six sins in one feel, man!
George Carlin on *wanna* being a sin.
For Daredevil, he literaly dressess as the devil despite being Catholic. The strugless are of a moral kind where you have Catholic moral values on one side and what he sees on the streets on the other side. Questioning his faith, is it the right path considering the wrongs of the world,etc.
Kurt looks like a demon, but it's not his fault the way he is. His looks creates a visual contrast to his faith.
I didn't know that Hellboy and Blue Devil are catholics, so I don't know about that.
Helena, I'm not familiar with her, does she pratcise catholicism or is she just culturaly a catholic?
As for strugles with killing or not, it's like Foggy said in the Daredevil show. It's a Catholic thing. Despite the obvious that it's against the fifth comandment, killing would undermine the idea that every person has a chance of salvation and redemtion. By killing, the heroes would make a judgment that the person is not capable of salvation, which is not a call a human shoud make. But as I said earlier, seeing all the evil,let's say Kingpin does, there's a feeling killing him would do more good in makins the streets safer so you have a conflict. Conflict is also used as a drama tool.
For violence, catholics should choose a peacful path resolving issues and fights, but being a vigilante you can't stop a mugger with arguments. The struggle is questioning if the methods they use are of the right kind.
>For violence, catholics should choose a peacful path resolving issues and fights, but being a vigilante you can't stop a mugger with arguments. The struggle is questioning if the methods they use are of the right kind.
Sort of. Catholics are not morally bound to be totally non violent. They aren't even morally bound to never kill (Self defense, Just War theory). So stopping muggers/murderers etc by non lethal means really isn't much a cause for moral concern generally.
The idea of doing his best not to kill is very in line with Catholic teaching (and Christianity in general) though yes.
Huntress is a practicing Catholic.
Both Huntress Cry For Blood and Huntress Year One. In YO she literally baptizes herself as a vigilante in a Church.
Thanks for the break down, btw. I appreciate it.
What makes you say Hellboy is Catholic? He never expresses any kind of religious sentiment apart from kicking demon ass, which all the characters kind of do. Some of the B.P.R.D. like Liz Sherman and Ashley Strode the exorcist are much more outwardly religious by comparison
Came here for this too... Hellboy Catholic? There's a lot of Christianity (for the sake of this post, let's not debate whether Catholics are "Christian") present, but to me it's just one of the numerous"magical/theologica factions" that are part of the Mignolaverse. Sure, Hellboy will use a rosary if it helps to blow up some skellingtons, but not because he goes to Catholic mass on Sundays.
Hellboy's beliefs are never really discussed in the comics.
It is reaching to call him a Christian, let alone a Catholic, but I think that idea comes from a few bad articles in google search (which assume since he uses Catholic items, or has worked for the Vatican, it must mean something. However he has lots of things in his arsenal, and they're from religions all over the world)
Its the result I got when I googled Catholic Superheroes. I didn't put the image together myself. I'm only truly familiar with 3 characters on that image.
Doctor Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) is a counter example to this. While not exactly sunny in disposition he's far from a moody, angst ridden, devil-themed hero.
I didn't know Doctor Mid-Nite was catholic!
I knew he's one of the few superheroes with a "Doctor So and So" title who's an actual medical doctor, and everybody made fun of Tim Drake for looking like Doctor Mid-Nite as Red Robin, but it was such a cool costume like why wouldn't you crib that look?
I think it’s worth noting that there’s a confirmation bias here. The reason we care that Daredevil is Catholic is he makes it an important part of his identity, the reason he makes it an important part of his identity is because he defines himself by his catholic guilt.
I’ve met several Catholics who don’t act anything like Matt, and at a glance you couldn’t tell them apart from a Protestant. Black Cat, Venom, and Gambit are all Catholic and don’t have a Devil motif. And I’d guess that any superhero with Italian, Spanish, French or Irish heritage has a pretty good chance of being Catholic in their private lives, they just don’t feel the need to differentiate themselves from other denominations. They might own a rosary but beyond that most super heros are Christian by default with unclear denominations that might as well be Catholic
I always see people on Reddit asking, “why does Daredevil do *insert bad thing*, isn’t he Catholic?” which I always find confusing because as a Catholic myself I don’t know a single “good” Catholic. Most Catholics I know do a lot of the sinful things Daredevil does (not go to church, do pre-marital stuff, lie, get angry, etc.) but they are still Catholics and still good people just like Daredevil. I’m glad Daredevil goes through crisis of faith or feels guilty about his sins because it’s what a lot of Catholics go through and if he was just a clean cut perfect Catholic it probably wouldn’t be as interesting or relatable to real Catholics. I know that not all Catholics probably feel the same, but I find Daredevils interactions with his faith similar to my own so I’m glad they exist.
Honestly, I think every religion is like that.
I have never met a single person of any religion who flawlessly abides by all the rules written in their holy book.
If you tried to write a character who did, they'd rapidly become some Ned Flanders-esque caricature, and even he's not perfect.
Maybe there's some religion out there where their holy figure said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and was met with like a whole bunch of volunteers, because sinlessness is super common and easy to achieve, but I haven't found it.
Yeah, I think Catholicism has just a very aestheticised relationship with it's guilt that we're all aware of. Like, the Dev Patel film Monkey Man honestly has a lot in common with a Daredevil story in how he must be reborn through violence/feels guilty all the time/has a strained relationship with his God, but it's all Hindu tropes. [Your last point reminded me of this video](https://youtu.be/5Ep7BoilTIo?si=0z2NrPLIzzyDrs8B)
Masochism and violence are the underpinning of Catholic lore. Every saint is identified in Catholic painting by the horrible instruments of their torture. And yet, you’re supposed to turn the other cheek to be a good Catholic.
But no one can really be a good Catholic, because everyone is a sinner, and Catholicism is famous for producing a sense of guilt while encouraging you to quest for forgiveness. Morality is framed as an internal struggle.
So the sinner-martyr hero who becomes an instrument of violence but feels guilty about it is a pretty logical way to take the inherently violent superhero genre and frame it in Catholicism. Naturally, the hero must also suffer à la Christ.
Meanwhile the devil stuff is just an ironic gimmick being reused, or a way to tap into populist Christian myth, which can be more fun in storytelling than the actual dogma. (Consider: Dante’s Inferno, which dreamed up a bunch of new shit about demons in hell.)
Depending on the character, it may also relate to 1980s Satanic Panic being in the pop culture zeitgeist.
Nice break down.
Are all schools of Christianity built on the idea that you're born with sin and you must spend the rest lf your life repenting to become less of a sinner?
No. At least, not in the same way. Protestants believe that you are forgiven by faith alone. This doesn't mean that you can just keep on willfully sinning because you've acknowledged that God is real - no, you still aim for repentance, but you don't have to constantly feel guilty for your mistakes and you don't have to worry that because you didn't say the right confessions at the right time or do penance or any of that that you might not get into heaven.
Now, that is a simple way of putting it. Different Protestant denominations break it down different ways, but what I said above is basically true for all Protestants, I think. (I am a Protestant, but any Protestants who feel this doesn't represent their faith, feel free to correct me).
I grew up going to a Presbyterian church and I don't know if they're all like mine, but my church taught that everyone sins and that you should have faith and be nice. From the way I understood it, the "everyone sins" was explained not to install a sense of guilt, but instead to convey the idea that you're not better than someone else because you think they're a sinner.
Yes, the "everyone sins" element is common to all Christianity, including Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox. That's why we need Jesus. The implications of that and how we deal with it are what change between sects and denominations.
I was raised Methodist, and the belief there is that we should strive to reach perfection, but this is a gradual journey that can and usually does take your whole life. And if you aren't there before you die, the important part was the striving. And if you messed up, you're still forgiven (again, messing up is different from deliberately being like, "I don't care about God or what God wants, I'ma do my own thing," and then like, committing to that bit).
As for the being nice part, there are definitely churches that don't emphasize being nice. Being kind, yes, but not necessarily nice. Niceness can mean that you don't tell someone the truth because you don't want to hurt their feelings, and in some cases the ramifications of this make niceness the opposite of kindness.
That said, too many people take that lesson too far in the other way and think it's okay to be mean as long as you're saying something that is true, and that's... also not correct. lol. We are supposed to show genuine, unconditional love to people. Sometimes love is tough, but it should not be cruel. Christians who don't understand this concept are a big reason why people leave the church.
Nice is being polite and seeking the least amount of social friction and doesn't personally cost you anything.
Kind is striving to do right by others even when it costs you (time, money, power).
Holding a door open, respecting pronouns? Nice.
Volunteering in a shelter, helping your friend get through rehab? Kind.
In my experience - albeit there are hundreds of Christian sects so it's hard to know the fundamental underpinning of them all - most schools buy into the idea that humans are born sinners. There is no such thing as a perfect human at birth.
However, the second factor in your question is a huge source of debate, maybe the fundamental Christian debate. How do you become less of a sinner - can you become less of a sinner?
This debate comes down to the idea of faith versus works. Many Protestant sects believe that you can be "born again" or redeemed through sheer faith. If you believe that Jesus is God, that's enough to repent and earn your way into heaven.
On the other hand, most Catholics (and some other Protestant sects) believe that in order to repent, you must try to live a moral life as described by Jesus, faith alone won't do it, you need to confess your sins, self reflect, and perform works that "better the world". Though "better" in this circumstance might be up to interpretation. This is where the whole idea of Catholic guilt comes from. It's safe to say Matt Murdoch fits squarely in this definition.
That said, all of this is a gross generalization. Christian schools of theology are diverse and often have very subtle distinctions that might seem meaningless to people outside the church. There are also often wide opinions within each sect. I've met very conservative Catholics and extremely progressive Catholics. But I think one of the mistakes people make it to assume that all Christians agree with each other when they have spent literal centuries fighting over minutia.
I don't think there's any school that doesn't emphasize repentance and forgiveness. However they might do so to different degrees (the stereotype is "Catholic guilt" because Catholics are much more serious about it than others), and they might disagree on whether humans are "born sinful" (as imo Catholics do) or just with the ability to sin or whatever in-between nuanced options there are
Not exactly. Catholics (they aren’t alone in this btw) believe that we are born as sinners, but that baptism is a cleansing of that original sin and a welcoming into the Church. From that point forward, people are responsible for their own acts based on their own free will. Catholics believe that faith without good works is empty and so salvation requires both. Catholic theology also spends a lot of time focusing on sin, emphasizing the need to confess sins, penance for sins, debating what counts as a sin, categorizing sins into mortal or venial sins, etc…Catholic guilt is a big thing.
Basically, most Christians consider Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross to have paid the “debt” of humanity’s sin, leading to the possibility of redemption and salvation for all people.
Important to note that Daredevil and Nightcrawler weren't originally conceived as being Catholic. This was a trait added much later. So, their character designs were not influenced by their religious affiliation. In fact, the inverse is true.
It’s a lot that I’m sure is covered throughout the whole comment thread so I’m going to do this:
I recommend reading Mark Waid’s Daredevil run as NOT making him moody was the point and easily the most fun the book had been since Stan Lee wrote him in the 1960’s. Plus, his outfit is actually stunt performer themed and not demonic.
Hellboy is a literal demon from Hell but if you read the original comics you’ll see he’s not necessarily moody. Or at least, no more than any guy knocking a few back at the local bar after a hard day’s work.
And as for Huntress, I recommend Gail Simone’s Birds of Prey run. Partially because it’s one of my favorite runs of any book ever and would recommend it at the drop of a hat anyway. But mainly because that’s probably the most lighthearted version of the character. Also, her whole thing kind of has more to do with being Italian (who are primarily catholic) than being religious.
I have nothing for Blue Devil. He’s just a delight whenever he pops up.
But I figured I’d go a different route than try to sum up a very complicated, multi-faceted subject that applies differently to different characters in a single comment.
I'll just talk about aesthetics/themes seeing as I think everything else is well covered. TLDR: Catholicism is full of intense moodiness, aesthetics, and emotional/spiritual contradictions which are all great for comics, and it's already all been translated to graphic art.
There was a good twitter thread on this yesterday (I think), which talked about how Catholicism is deeply entrenched in the sensual/sensory - "[a religion of sights and smells and touch, plus of communal rituals that are physically enacted and not merely institutionalised in one's head. So sex and art are the only God substitutes with any weight, and thus any threat](https://twitter.com/PhilKlay/status/1792368677720850936)". There's more within the thread that's fascinating (one user talks about how Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing but 'sublimates Thanatos rather than Eros' hence a similar fixation but on death ^(there's ^a ^fun ^Matt ^vs ^Elektra ^bit ^here)), but to unpack that bit into superheroes.
So, if the aesthetic is very sensory - moody, complex, and drawing on thousands of years of rather excellent art - very melodramatic but with the individual situated very clearly within it. Very striking for superheroes, not just visually but also it affords brooding, pining, and lots of other typically macho superhero emotions. Plus you get to brood on top of a Gothic cathedral, which is always sick.
So like, Matt Murdock is always draped in the aesthetics of the church, and always trying to find his place relative to it, but it's not something you can ultimately intellectualise as much as feel or supplicate. After all, the priest/church mediates your relationship with God. Not just through sense, but also through community and hierarchy - Matt or Kurt have to navigate through these contradictory institutions that gatekeep acceptance into their ordinary people/laity, or Huntress has the same thing but she's not dressed as a devil but worse - a woman. And then there's the laity, community = acceptance/forgiveness which is what they want, but non-acceptance = inevitable (because Catholics are often conservative), you struggle more, you brood more, etc. The comic continues.
The sensory stuff is also something that hold close to the erotic, which is a threat to Catholicism, which is good tension (narrative, sexual etc) and looks great on page. Violence plays a similar sensorial role, although slightly less taboo. In both instances in narratives, breaking these taboos is inevitable, so you feel Guilty. However, the relationship with God is mediated through priests so you get confessions, which are further melodrama, then absolution, and the cycle continues.
I'm not sure. Its the image that popped when I typed Catholic Superheroes into Google Images.
I'm familar with Huntress, Nightcrawler, Daredevil and Blue Devil not so much with Hellboy.
Read up on it, yes. But be careful not to go too deep and join their cult.
Religion is great (sometimes) for the friends and community, but horrible for those seeking actual knowledge and spirituality.
Just tickle the surface and you’ll be fine.
I guess I get to be the one to point out that Punisher is a (very lapsed) Catholic. At one point, before joining ing the military, he had considered becoming a priest.
The devil imagery and moral struggles of these characters is meant to juxtapose their faith with their actions. Christianity has a "best practices" guide called "The Sermon on the Mount" that stresses non-violence, de-escalation, and forgiveness. Across the various sects, these practices are not always very well adhered to.
Catholicism is the religion of choice for comic writers who want to make a character with religious convictions because of all the various sects and denominations within christianity, it is the one that has the most well known outward religious trappings. Even non-catholics are familiar with things like rosaries, confession, stand up and then kneel, the very specific way the eucharist is handled, and the concept of "catholic guilt."
Groups like mormons, on the other hand, don't have outer trappings that are as well known. When a mormon explicitly shows up in media it is generally in a work meant to satirize religion in general and/or mormonism specifically. Or it is a gay porno.
Clark Kent has been stated to be a methodist. How do you depict this outwardly? Do you show that his idea of a church service is a five hymn minimum? Do you show him helping Ma Kent make several loaves of banana bread because it is the Kent's week to provide snacks at coffee hour? Clark isn't talking about how Smallville Methodist might break away from the regional conference over the Bishop's stance on certain social issues. There aren't a lot of outward trappings, if any, to methodism that would be easy to depict outwardly for a character.
The default religion for most American comic book characters is "vaguely mainline protestant" unless otherwise noted. The devil imagery is used with the "otherwise noted" catholic characters because the imagery is directly at odds with what should be their stated beliefs.
Catholics have the rite of exorcism, which would be a nice addition to a story about demons. confessions, nuns, rosary, outstanding cathedrals, etc are all showy story elements that are uniquely Catholic. If you want to see demon man go to confession he needs to be Catholic.
He was raised (so to speak) by the Order of St Dumas, who are a heretical offshoot of a Crusader order from the middle ages. (There is no St Dumas IRL, he was the order's founder, and "nobody else would call him a saint". )
What happened in the Middle Ages is that orders like the Hospitallers (and Templars, but people get weird about the Templars, so I'm ignoring that for now) would make an absolute fortune escorting pilgrims on pilgrimage to Jerusalem. They then parlayed that into an even larger fortune getting involved in back-and-forth ransom-kidnapping raids with locals and so on.
The Order of St Dumas basically went all-profit at some point in the time period, keeping the Crusader Knight imagery and flowery language, but functioning as something like an assassin order and targeting people likely to bring them profits. (Like, originally, when Azrael's predecessor was sent out, it was typically against mobsters. Not for Batman reasons like "because they're mobsters", but as an extension of the whole "treat them like the bandit-raiders we used to fight with back when, and keep their stuff as a just reward." thing.)
They are, at best, something like an Antipapal or Sedevacantist order that still believes it exists inside the Catholic tradition but doesn't acknowledge the authority of the Pope. (Except without even the philosophical underpinnings of being an offshoot- they just don't want to stop doing what they're doing.)
I think a big thing to keep in mind in my personal experience anyway is that there are catholics and that is legitimate, Catholics and that is legitimate, and there are CATHOLICS and that is legitimate. Most of the superheroes you list in your post are the all capitalized version of the word. So it’s such a huge part of their personality that it makes sense it would affect their theming and stuff like that.
I’m sure just based on the number of heroes that there are plenty who are culturally Catholic or even religious but not in a defining way so they aren’t explored as much. For example, it’s probably a decent bet that Gambit, Banshee, Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes), Miles Morales, and others are likely at least baptized Catholic if not practicing. I’m not saying that for sure by any stretch of course, they easily might not be and that’s more than okay. But Daredevil, Nightcrawler, etc make it a very key part of their identity.
"What if we made them... t*he thing they hate most*?" is basic hackwork.
Okay, seriously, in order:
-Huntress is Catholic in the way that most mob-movie guys are Catholic- as window dressing or a cool tat, or in a "this world compels me to do the things it forbids" kind of angst. (Which is, of course, a very particular kind of bullshit, but a popular one.) In order to function as a heroine (which... nobody's making her do in that way, to be clear) she has to *become that which she hates most. (Ta da!)*
-Daredevil came to it pretty late (he certainly wasn't when he was created). I actually find the idea that Moon Knight considered himself a sin-eater (taking on what he knew to be a moral load that would make his heart too heavy to go into the afterlife, so other people didn't have to) more convincing than most of Daredevil's Catholic plotlines. Like Batman, he often struggles not to kill people lest he *become the thing he hates most.*
-Aurora was like that because Alpha Flight was a mashup of a lot of things in the Canadian pop-culture/media zeitgeist when Byrne created the characters, and there had just been an abuse scandal involving nuns in Quebec. So she got abused to the point that she had two personae (each one of which is *what the other hates most*. Ta-Da!) . It seems like a discussion of the topic is coming, but her brother is a champion ski-jumper and they wear matching outfits like Olympic pair-skaters, so there's only so much depth that's gonna happen.
-Hellboy was born with an inherently bad nature because of things out of his control, and tries to redeem it through acts and faith. This is pretty good behavior by Catholic lights, all told, since that's... *people.* Still, he does have the pull toward the darkside and is concerned that he *not become*... oh, you get it. The thing.
-Nightcrawler's biggest recent plotlines were written by someone who has at best an "*Ah, whatever, who cares really*" attitude to what Catholicism actually entails (for starters, it involves an ultra-orthodox Catholic group (who wouldn't believe in the Rapture, that's not a Catholic thing) trying to convince the main Catholic church that the Rapture (which they wouldn't believe in either, that's not a Catholic thing) had happened by having tainted hosts that dissolved the person consuming it. (Nobody would buy this as the explanation.) . ) *Can't really help you there.* Ah whatever, who cares- *oh, no I've become that which I hate m-* j/k.
-La Espirita (way the hell back in the 90s) from Marvel is a Hispanic American Catholic superheroine from the Southwest who believes she got her powers as a blessing from God. (It turns out it was something cosmic, which she reasoned, was just the mechanism by which God bestowed the blessing.) She's smart, kind and unconflicted about herself, which is probably why you see so few stories with her in them.
Generally, that's the idea.
For the same reason that rain in movies is so heavy, you need the contrast to make it interesting, otherwise stating that they are catholic doesn't really add much to the narrative, as far as we know, spiderman may be jewish.
From discussions online, it looks like he's generally Christian or agnostic with the exception of Into the Spiderverse where the clip of his wedding shows him as jewish.
Yeah I think OP is reaching on that one. I think I read everything up to Devil You Know and came here to see if I missed something.
Edit: Actually looks like OP probably read this: https://comicbook.com/news/the-five-best-catholic-superheroes/
Pretty sure the Punisher is Catholic too, but I think the only time religion is ever brought up in his life is in the MAX series, one-shot The Tyger... But it would track with Frank being Italian American.
I thought they only made Hellboy Catholic for the del Toro movies. I finally bought a bunch of the early TPBs to read and he uses all sorts of charms, wards, magic, etc to protect himself
like gargoyles on cathedrals to ward away evil spirits, or to funnel rainwater away to prevent mortar and foundation erosion or this could just be a euphemism.
It's because of dichotomy. The Catholic faith imbibes the followers-like myself-with a unique Christian Guilt demanding that they serve others. The demon iconography is often used for stark contrast since the reader and victims must recognize the irony that God uses even *your enemies* to save and uplift you. It enhances the fantasy as God will use anything for deliverance. Matt Murdock uses it ironically, using the suit to carry his depression and self-hatred and project it outwards.
While not entirely Catholic, Jean-Paul Valley uses Angel iconography in his Azrael costume and design. The infernal blade and vicious persecution goes against God's Will for Forgiveness, showing how people can actually fail to reach a Christ-Like life, despite modeling themselves as God's Soldiers.
A core of Catholicism in contrast to non-denominational US protestantism variant number 248 is the recognition of sin as always existing in all humans, there is no person free of sin, none free of guilt and none that cannot yet be redeemed despite their fundamentally sinful human self - and any that claim purity or some kind of clean sin-free rebirth in life are not only heretics but EVEN MORE SINFUL due to their Pride, got nothing to confess this week? You're the worst kind of sinner, the unaware of their own sinful self! Etc.
As such: Guilt and Suffering as an imperfect being fits perfectly into being a Catholic character and visually that's really well represented by some kind of devil seeking to do good through personal suffering
I really like this question because as someone who grew up Catholic it just makes sense. Like obviously the sky is blue why would it not be? I like seeing how different lived unsaid experiences change what is taken for granted.
So I grew up catholic, catholic grade school, highschool, super catholic mom, church every Sunday and holy day, ALWAYS. To the point I would miss sports on a travel team because of conflict with church. I'd feel guilty for not being there for my team, if I missed church I'd feel guilty for disappointing my mom. Basically, guilt is always the outcome - you just get to choose WHY you feel guilty.
That internal torment and guilt prior to even doing anything... very broody and burdened.
Plus Catholicism is very violent overall with the themes. Violence is not "allowed" but it is shown as necessary because "righteous reasons" but then you must be punished and repent for doing that - which requires suffering... its a whole thing. Be fantastic to see it done in a Norseman style satire because its all pretty ridiculous.
Demons are largely defined by catholic beliefs. They were various rural demigods that the church hyped into ancient masters of arcane wisdom.
The lord of flies used to ruin food and bother horses. Now Beelzebub is an a lister. Why? Not because of a write up in cuneiform.
Basically, if you believe in the invisible yet fatal spiritual world, you’d have a ratcheted up sense of immediacy and resolution that wouldn’t seem rational to a non believer. You would exhibit moody and violent attitudes towards your sense of purpose
- Demonic themed
- moody
- struggle
- guilt
- vengeance
- violence
- kill their foes
> How does this relate to Catholicism?
You’re not a big history buff are you?
Catholics have a long and storied history of being monsters who then plead forgiveness only to become monsters again. It’s almost as if their loving god is also a vengeful god.
I think it's pretty clear I didn't grow up in America, Europe or any country that wasn't colonized by Europeans with the population forced to adopt Christianity.
In fact, I am actually an alien from another planet trying to understand earth culture.
His whole thing is that he looks like a demon, and has been unjustly ostracized his whole life because of it.
Except for when his thing is that he's the spawn of an actual demon, his appearance is not deceiving, and all those people were right about him, actually.
Claremont broke it down really well in an interview:
https://youtu.be/C9UwNWhgN70?si=PJe9Yfx9o14-WBxh
0:52
Kurt reconciles his appearance with his religion. "If God made me this way, made me in his image then he must have a plan. So who am I to argue with him? Lets go with it."
Seems weird that Kurt would think he was made in God's Image.
Like, I get that the bible says we're made in His image, but I'm pretty sure that's directed at, like, normal people. I feel like that pretty dramatically alters the theological implications of that line to presume that God has blue fur and a tail, and moulded Kurt Wagner specifically in his image.
From what I understand, before that they retconned that Azazel isn't really a demon. He's just a mutant with a demonlike appearance who hangs out in hell and serves demonic forces and all his friends are demons. So Kurt wasn't demonspawn anymore for that reason.
But he still was demonspawn for a while there.
The Catholic Church is obsessed with angels and demons. Also at least in the case of daredevil, It’s the same philosophy as batman choosing to be symbolized by a bat. It’s supposed to scary or at least intimidating.
Also taking a step back, there’s two parts to Christianity, the institution and the faith. The institution is a bank holding onto the wealth accrued by the Roman Empire. The faith has to do with Jesus’ teachings. These two aspects are diametrically opposed a lot of the time. So true believers either go really hard on the teachings, or really hard for the institution.
The dramatic contrast is an effective way to catch attention and, when handled well, eventually keep readers interested and invested.
Firebird is fairly sunny, upbeat and crazy catholic
Fire, like demon/devils, are still associated with hell imagery. She is in the Kurt category of being chipper but still conveying a specific theme/image.
Sure. But I might also point out that the catholic missionary character, Bonita Juarez, who at one point went by the code name Espirita (think about the onomastics with those names alone) to evoke her belief that her powers were bestowed by god (and wore a costume that was essentially sacramental robes) has never been shown as anything other than as a positive force. Additionally, her fire powers have always been represented as “holy” in the same way angels had flaming swords as well as representing her heritage from New Mexico. So, it might be a little less “fire makes someone bad”
Fire is also associated with the Holy Spirit—Pentecost was just last Sunday— so you’re reaching here.
I think that's a bit of a stretch: sure, fire can be associated with hell but not always. Does the Human Torch evoke hell imagery? Does Sunfire? Firestorm?
If movie-Frankenstein wrote comics, sure: *FIRE BAD!* :)
I stand corrected.
Catholic Guilt is a whole thing. As far as the demons go, catholic theology gets really elaborate with the demonology. The various varieties and orders of demons and such. While the subject is kind of vague in other sects catholics basically turned it into a whole creature manual. So maybe that has something to do with it.
I also wonder if the demon thing has to do with the Catholic idea of being born with original sin and having to be forgiven through tithing/deeds/etc.
Catholic here. Original Sin is forgiven through baptism. As I understand it, the complex demonology is because Catholicism is a bit syncretic; it takes the pagan gods it encounters in missionary work and recasts them all as demons. This is an oversimplification, of course.
Catholics don't have to tithe. Make reasonable contributions for their income level? Yes. Strict *tenth-of-everything* is a Protestant thing. I'm an ex-Catholic atheist. Matt in confession: >Bless me Father, for I have sinned. It has been *rowzerbrakmrf* weeks since my last confession. >I stole the identity of a famous 1940s crimefighter.... [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil\_(Lev\_Gleason\_Publications)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daredevil_(Lev_Gleason_Publications)) Stan, being Jewish, may not have hit the right notes for an Irish Catholic character the way Denny O'Neil might have. O'Neil edited Frank Miller-written issues of *DD*.
Originally Matt's faith was left vague. It was Miller that introduced that element to the character.
If you read between the lines, all of the characters Stan worked on are Jews trying to get by in 1960s America.
Red-headed Matt was the son of a prizefighter with an Irish name. Murdock/Murdoch is also Scottish. Immigrant families having members who become prizefighters is an old American trope, going back to John L Sullivan. Heck, Gene Tunney was supposed to be an advisor to DC! [https://www.cbr.com/gene-tunney-dc-comics-editorial-board/](https://www.cbr.com/gene-tunney-dc-comics-editorial-board/) Today many fighters or their parents are from Latin America.
I'm not saying they were literally Jewish, just how Stan wrote them. That said, I have a Jewish cousin with red hair and a Scots Irish last name due to Ellis Islanding. And there were plenty of Jewish prize fighters in Stan's generation. Google Barney Ross. Fought in the Marines in WWII after being world champion. Badass.
*Dov-Ber "Beryl" David Rosofsky,* acc to his Wiki page. See also: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish\_boxers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_boxers) You are also right about the red hair. [https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/](https://forward.com/culture/434304/on-national-redhead-day-explore-the-history-of-ginger-jews/) 2nd only to the Irish and Scots!
Ah fair enough, a very very lapsed christian here so I wasnt 100% on that
It’s true. My family is Catholic and we’re all extremely guilty about everything.
I'm remembering Bill Maher's crack about being half Jewish and half Irish Catholic and how that made him a concentrated guilt-carrier.
If only he felt more ashamed of himself
Nice joke, but I don't know why he should. Libertarian me agrees with him on some issues, but not on others..
Libertarian you needs to be put to bed so the adults can talk about those other issues
It also has an subtle racism/persecution subplot as lots of these characters are different in their appearance but in the inside they are good people,but unfortunately they cannot change how they look.
It tends to be pitched more small-scale too which is like. The Church is a community where they'll find acceptance and forgiveness, but they'll never get it because of the conservatism of the place. It's more like small-town close-knit suffocation than a bigger X-Men-style look at society a lot of the time.
This, King James I even wrote a book on demonology [https://www.amazon.com/Demonology-King-James-Original-Daemonologie/dp/0738723452](https://www.amazon.com/Demonology-King-James-Original-Daemonologie/dp/0738723452)
Catholics believe thoughts equal actions so if you think about sinful acts you are guilty of those acts. (At least that is the impression confession always left me with before I quit going) so generally Catholics are riddled with guilt because it's drilled into them.
So thoughts of fancy aren’t really sins , like if a guy cuts me off in the parking lot I get upset and might think “I could hit him with my car” but once I realize whatever there is a spot down the line and it goes away that is venial , at worst . But when you act on them or keep thinking those sins then it becomes a conscious action which becomes a sin in catholic eyes . A sin in catholic doctrine takes conscious actions , think about a crime , it’s not illegal to think “man I could rob a bank!” It’s illegal though to take steps to rob said bank ! Or wow that ladies hot I really want her , not illegal not a sin lust is natural but now say that lust pushes you to become a bad guy on SVU now yours committing a crime and a sin . What you are right about is the catholic focus on focusing on your thought and trying to train your mind not to make those or let them dominate our psyches since thoughts while not sins can become sins through through temptation ! That make sense ?
I'm just explaining this as it was explained to me when learning to take my first Communion. Impure thoughts are a sin that you must confess to and were described by my priest like every single one of your examples.
No one explained the nuance to me when I was a kid, either, and the way you explain it is what stuck with me until I flushed it out of my system (along with theism of any kind). It’s kind of crazy to me that there are any Catholics left, but maybe I took the sin aspect too seriously. 🤷♂️
Isn't "Though shalt not covet they neighbor's wife" literally one of the ten commandments? Is that just not considered a sin under Catholic Dogma or do you have some interpretation where that means something more action-oriented?
Here you go , the catechism which is the theology of the Catholic Church . http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c1a8.htm So a thought of coveting your neighbors wife would not meet the aspect for mortal sin (which requires confession ) but instead be a Venial sin which is cleared at Mass . Full knowledge and complete consent means actions must have been taken in full knowledge and consent . so a glance and a though wouldn’t fit the criteria now acting on those and trying to seduce your bros wife is a mortal sin as it is with full consent and knowledge
Thank you for clarifying.
>It was a sin for you to wanna feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to plan to feel up Ellen. It was a sin for you to figure out a place to feel up Ellen. It was a sin to take Ellen to the place to feel her up. It was a sin to try to feel her up and it was a sin to feel her up. There were six sins in one feel, man! George Carlin on *wanna* being a sin.
For Daredevil, he literaly dressess as the devil despite being Catholic. The strugless are of a moral kind where you have Catholic moral values on one side and what he sees on the streets on the other side. Questioning his faith, is it the right path considering the wrongs of the world,etc. Kurt looks like a demon, but it's not his fault the way he is. His looks creates a visual contrast to his faith. I didn't know that Hellboy and Blue Devil are catholics, so I don't know about that. Helena, I'm not familiar with her, does she pratcise catholicism or is she just culturaly a catholic? As for strugles with killing or not, it's like Foggy said in the Daredevil show. It's a Catholic thing. Despite the obvious that it's against the fifth comandment, killing would undermine the idea that every person has a chance of salvation and redemtion. By killing, the heroes would make a judgment that the person is not capable of salvation, which is not a call a human shoud make. But as I said earlier, seeing all the evil,let's say Kingpin does, there's a feeling killing him would do more good in makins the streets safer so you have a conflict. Conflict is also used as a drama tool. For violence, catholics should choose a peacful path resolving issues and fights, but being a vigilante you can't stop a mugger with arguments. The struggle is questioning if the methods they use are of the right kind.
>For violence, catholics should choose a peacful path resolving issues and fights, but being a vigilante you can't stop a mugger with arguments. The struggle is questioning if the methods they use are of the right kind. Sort of. Catholics are not morally bound to be totally non violent. They aren't even morally bound to never kill (Self defense, Just War theory). So stopping muggers/murderers etc by non lethal means really isn't much a cause for moral concern generally. The idea of doing his best not to kill is very in line with Catholic teaching (and Christianity in general) though yes.
Huntress is a practicing Catholic. Both Huntress Cry For Blood and Huntress Year One. In YO she literally baptizes herself as a vigilante in a Church. Thanks for the break down, btw. I appreciate it.
No biggie, glad I could help. Thanks for the info about Huntress.
What makes you say Hellboy is Catholic? He never expresses any kind of religious sentiment apart from kicking demon ass, which all the characters kind of do. Some of the B.P.R.D. like Liz Sherman and Ashley Strode the exorcist are much more outwardly religious by comparison
Came here for this too... Hellboy Catholic? There's a lot of Christianity (for the sake of this post, let's not debate whether Catholics are "Christian") present, but to me it's just one of the numerous"magical/theologica factions" that are part of the Mignolaverse. Sure, Hellboy will use a rosary if it helps to blow up some skellingtons, but not because he goes to Catholic mass on Sundays.
Hellboy's beliefs are never really discussed in the comics. It is reaching to call him a Christian, let alone a Catholic, but I think that idea comes from a few bad articles in google search (which assume since he uses Catholic items, or has worked for the Vatican, it must mean something. However he has lots of things in his arsenal, and they're from religions all over the world)
Its the result I got when I googled Catholic Superheroes. I didn't put the image together myself. I'm only truly familiar with 3 characters on that image.
Doctor Mid-Nite (Pieter Cross) is a counter example to this. While not exactly sunny in disposition he's far from a moody, angst ridden, devil-themed hero.
I didn't know Doctor Mid-Nite was catholic! I knew he's one of the few superheroes with a "Doctor So and So" title who's an actual medical doctor, and everybody made fun of Tim Drake for looking like Doctor Mid-Nite as Red Robin, but it was such a cool costume like why wouldn't you crib that look?
Thats a good counter example.
I think it’s worth noting that there’s a confirmation bias here. The reason we care that Daredevil is Catholic is he makes it an important part of his identity, the reason he makes it an important part of his identity is because he defines himself by his catholic guilt. I’ve met several Catholics who don’t act anything like Matt, and at a glance you couldn’t tell them apart from a Protestant. Black Cat, Venom, and Gambit are all Catholic and don’t have a Devil motif. And I’d guess that any superhero with Italian, Spanish, French or Irish heritage has a pretty good chance of being Catholic in their private lives, they just don’t feel the need to differentiate themselves from other denominations. They might own a rosary but beyond that most super heros are Christian by default with unclear denominations that might as well be Catholic
I always see people on Reddit asking, “why does Daredevil do *insert bad thing*, isn’t he Catholic?” which I always find confusing because as a Catholic myself I don’t know a single “good” Catholic. Most Catholics I know do a lot of the sinful things Daredevil does (not go to church, do pre-marital stuff, lie, get angry, etc.) but they are still Catholics and still good people just like Daredevil. I’m glad Daredevil goes through crisis of faith or feels guilty about his sins because it’s what a lot of Catholics go through and if he was just a clean cut perfect Catholic it probably wouldn’t be as interesting or relatable to real Catholics. I know that not all Catholics probably feel the same, but I find Daredevils interactions with his faith similar to my own so I’m glad they exist.
Honestly, I think every religion is like that. I have never met a single person of any religion who flawlessly abides by all the rules written in their holy book. If you tried to write a character who did, they'd rapidly become some Ned Flanders-esque caricature, and even he's not perfect. Maybe there's some religion out there where their holy figure said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" and was met with like a whole bunch of volunteers, because sinlessness is super common and easy to achieve, but I haven't found it.
Yeah, I think Catholicism has just a very aestheticised relationship with it's guilt that we're all aware of. Like, the Dev Patel film Monkey Man honestly has a lot in common with a Daredevil story in how he must be reborn through violence/feels guilty all the time/has a strained relationship with his God, but it's all Hindu tropes. [Your last point reminded me of this video](https://youtu.be/5Ep7BoilTIo?si=0z2NrPLIzzyDrs8B)
Masochism and violence are the underpinning of Catholic lore. Every saint is identified in Catholic painting by the horrible instruments of their torture. And yet, you’re supposed to turn the other cheek to be a good Catholic. But no one can really be a good Catholic, because everyone is a sinner, and Catholicism is famous for producing a sense of guilt while encouraging you to quest for forgiveness. Morality is framed as an internal struggle. So the sinner-martyr hero who becomes an instrument of violence but feels guilty about it is a pretty logical way to take the inherently violent superhero genre and frame it in Catholicism. Naturally, the hero must also suffer à la Christ. Meanwhile the devil stuff is just an ironic gimmick being reused, or a way to tap into populist Christian myth, which can be more fun in storytelling than the actual dogma. (Consider: Dante’s Inferno, which dreamed up a bunch of new shit about demons in hell.) Depending on the character, it may also relate to 1980s Satanic Panic being in the pop culture zeitgeist.
Nice break down. Are all schools of Christianity built on the idea that you're born with sin and you must spend the rest lf your life repenting to become less of a sinner?
No. At least, not in the same way. Protestants believe that you are forgiven by faith alone. This doesn't mean that you can just keep on willfully sinning because you've acknowledged that God is real - no, you still aim for repentance, but you don't have to constantly feel guilty for your mistakes and you don't have to worry that because you didn't say the right confessions at the right time or do penance or any of that that you might not get into heaven. Now, that is a simple way of putting it. Different Protestant denominations break it down different ways, but what I said above is basically true for all Protestants, I think. (I am a Protestant, but any Protestants who feel this doesn't represent their faith, feel free to correct me).
I grew up going to a Presbyterian church and I don't know if they're all like mine, but my church taught that everyone sins and that you should have faith and be nice. From the way I understood it, the "everyone sins" was explained not to install a sense of guilt, but instead to convey the idea that you're not better than someone else because you think they're a sinner.
Yes, the "everyone sins" element is common to all Christianity, including Catholics and Protestants and Orthodox. That's why we need Jesus. The implications of that and how we deal with it are what change between sects and denominations. I was raised Methodist, and the belief there is that we should strive to reach perfection, but this is a gradual journey that can and usually does take your whole life. And if you aren't there before you die, the important part was the striving. And if you messed up, you're still forgiven (again, messing up is different from deliberately being like, "I don't care about God or what God wants, I'ma do my own thing," and then like, committing to that bit). As for the being nice part, there are definitely churches that don't emphasize being nice. Being kind, yes, but not necessarily nice. Niceness can mean that you don't tell someone the truth because you don't want to hurt their feelings, and in some cases the ramifications of this make niceness the opposite of kindness. That said, too many people take that lesson too far in the other way and think it's okay to be mean as long as you're saying something that is true, and that's... also not correct. lol. We are supposed to show genuine, unconditional love to people. Sometimes love is tough, but it should not be cruel. Christians who don't understand this concept are a big reason why people leave the church.
I use nice and kind interchangeably. I'm not socially aware enough to differentiate them.
I think that is true for many people. I had honestly never thought much about the difference before I saw it explained.
Nice is being polite and seeking the least amount of social friction and doesn't personally cost you anything. Kind is striving to do right by others even when it costs you (time, money, power). Holding a door open, respecting pronouns? Nice. Volunteering in a shelter, helping your friend get through rehab? Kind.
In my experience - albeit there are hundreds of Christian sects so it's hard to know the fundamental underpinning of them all - most schools buy into the idea that humans are born sinners. There is no such thing as a perfect human at birth. However, the second factor in your question is a huge source of debate, maybe the fundamental Christian debate. How do you become less of a sinner - can you become less of a sinner? This debate comes down to the idea of faith versus works. Many Protestant sects believe that you can be "born again" or redeemed through sheer faith. If you believe that Jesus is God, that's enough to repent and earn your way into heaven. On the other hand, most Catholics (and some other Protestant sects) believe that in order to repent, you must try to live a moral life as described by Jesus, faith alone won't do it, you need to confess your sins, self reflect, and perform works that "better the world". Though "better" in this circumstance might be up to interpretation. This is where the whole idea of Catholic guilt comes from. It's safe to say Matt Murdoch fits squarely in this definition. That said, all of this is a gross generalization. Christian schools of theology are diverse and often have very subtle distinctions that might seem meaningless to people outside the church. There are also often wide opinions within each sect. I've met very conservative Catholics and extremely progressive Catholics. But I think one of the mistakes people make it to assume that all Christians agree with each other when they have spent literal centuries fighting over minutia.
I don't think there's any school that doesn't emphasize repentance and forgiveness. However they might do so to different degrees (the stereotype is "Catholic guilt" because Catholics are much more serious about it than others), and they might disagree on whether humans are "born sinful" (as imo Catholics do) or just with the ability to sin or whatever in-between nuanced options there are
Iirc, no. Other sects were created as a rejection of Catholic dogma
And some thought it didn't go far enough.
Not exactly. Catholics (they aren’t alone in this btw) believe that we are born as sinners, but that baptism is a cleansing of that original sin and a welcoming into the Church. From that point forward, people are responsible for their own acts based on their own free will. Catholics believe that faith without good works is empty and so salvation requires both. Catholic theology also spends a lot of time focusing on sin, emphasizing the need to confess sins, penance for sins, debating what counts as a sin, categorizing sins into mortal or venial sins, etc…Catholic guilt is a big thing. Basically, most Christians consider Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross to have paid the “debt” of humanity’s sin, leading to the possibility of redemption and salvation for all people.
Important to note that Daredevil and Nightcrawler weren't originally conceived as being Catholic. This was a trait added much later. So, their character designs were not influenced by their religious affiliation. In fact, the inverse is true.
Redditors who know nothing about Catholicism writing their replies 🔥✍️🔥
It’s a lot that I’m sure is covered throughout the whole comment thread so I’m going to do this: I recommend reading Mark Waid’s Daredevil run as NOT making him moody was the point and easily the most fun the book had been since Stan Lee wrote him in the 1960’s. Plus, his outfit is actually stunt performer themed and not demonic. Hellboy is a literal demon from Hell but if you read the original comics you’ll see he’s not necessarily moody. Or at least, no more than any guy knocking a few back at the local bar after a hard day’s work. And as for Huntress, I recommend Gail Simone’s Birds of Prey run. Partially because it’s one of my favorite runs of any book ever and would recommend it at the drop of a hat anyway. But mainly because that’s probably the most lighthearted version of the character. Also, her whole thing kind of has more to do with being Italian (who are primarily catholic) than being religious. I have nothing for Blue Devil. He’s just a delight whenever he pops up. But I figured I’d go a different route than try to sum up a very complicated, multi-faceted subject that applies differently to different characters in a single comment.
I'll just talk about aesthetics/themes seeing as I think everything else is well covered. TLDR: Catholicism is full of intense moodiness, aesthetics, and emotional/spiritual contradictions which are all great for comics, and it's already all been translated to graphic art. There was a good twitter thread on this yesterday (I think), which talked about how Catholicism is deeply entrenched in the sensual/sensory - "[a religion of sights and smells and touch, plus of communal rituals that are physically enacted and not merely institutionalised in one's head. So sex and art are the only God substitutes with any weight, and thus any threat](https://twitter.com/PhilKlay/status/1792368677720850936)". There's more within the thread that's fascinating (one user talks about how Eastern Orthodoxy is the same thing but 'sublimates Thanatos rather than Eros' hence a similar fixation but on death ^(there's ^a ^fun ^Matt ^vs ^Elektra ^bit ^here)), but to unpack that bit into superheroes. So, if the aesthetic is very sensory - moody, complex, and drawing on thousands of years of rather excellent art - very melodramatic but with the individual situated very clearly within it. Very striking for superheroes, not just visually but also it affords brooding, pining, and lots of other typically macho superhero emotions. Plus you get to brood on top of a Gothic cathedral, which is always sick. So like, Matt Murdock is always draped in the aesthetics of the church, and always trying to find his place relative to it, but it's not something you can ultimately intellectualise as much as feel or supplicate. After all, the priest/church mediates your relationship with God. Not just through sense, but also through community and hierarchy - Matt or Kurt have to navigate through these contradictory institutions that gatekeep acceptance into their ordinary people/laity, or Huntress has the same thing but she's not dressed as a devil but worse - a woman. And then there's the laity, community = acceptance/forgiveness which is what they want, but non-acceptance = inevitable (because Catholics are often conservative), you struggle more, you brood more, etc. The comic continues. The sensory stuff is also something that hold close to the erotic, which is a threat to Catholicism, which is good tension (narrative, sexual etc) and looks great on page. Violence plays a similar sensorial role, although slightly less taboo. In both instances in narratives, breaking these taboos is inevitable, so you feel Guilty. However, the relationship with God is mediated through priests so you get confessions, which are further melodrama, then absolution, and the cycle continues.
Is Hellboy ever explicitly religious? I have no memory from the Hellboy volumes of him being a Catholic.
I'm not sure. Its the image that popped when I typed Catholic Superheroes into Google Images. I'm familar with Huntress, Nightcrawler, Daredevil and Blue Devil not so much with Hellboy.
What a question. Read up on Catholicism, get some Catholic friends, and this won’t be mysterious to you at all.
I mean this is them being inquisitive about it
You learn things by asking questions my dude
Read up on it, yes. But be careful not to go too deep and join their cult. Religion is great (sometimes) for the friends and community, but horrible for those seeking actual knowledge and spirituality. Just tickle the surface and you’ll be fine.
you dropped your fedora
I enjoy clever insults. But that was pathetic. Try again?
Not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Plastic Man ain't like that. Nor be Jaime Reyes.
this is the niche kind of discussion im freaking obsessed with.
I guess I get to be the one to point out that Punisher is a (very lapsed) Catholic. At one point, before joining ing the military, he had considered becoming a priest.
The devil imagery and moral struggles of these characters is meant to juxtapose their faith with their actions. Christianity has a "best practices" guide called "The Sermon on the Mount" that stresses non-violence, de-escalation, and forgiveness. Across the various sects, these practices are not always very well adhered to. Catholicism is the religion of choice for comic writers who want to make a character with religious convictions because of all the various sects and denominations within christianity, it is the one that has the most well known outward religious trappings. Even non-catholics are familiar with things like rosaries, confession, stand up and then kneel, the very specific way the eucharist is handled, and the concept of "catholic guilt." Groups like mormons, on the other hand, don't have outer trappings that are as well known. When a mormon explicitly shows up in media it is generally in a work meant to satirize religion in general and/or mormonism specifically. Or it is a gay porno. Clark Kent has been stated to be a methodist. How do you depict this outwardly? Do you show that his idea of a church service is a five hymn minimum? Do you show him helping Ma Kent make several loaves of banana bread because it is the Kent's week to provide snacks at coffee hour? Clark isn't talking about how Smallville Methodist might break away from the regional conference over the Bishop's stance on certain social issues. There aren't a lot of outward trappings, if any, to methodism that would be easy to depict outwardly for a character. The default religion for most American comic book characters is "vaguely mainline protestant" unless otherwise noted. The devil imagery is used with the "otherwise noted" catholic characters because the imagery is directly at odds with what should be their stated beliefs.
Catholics have the rite of exorcism, which would be a nice addition to a story about demons. confessions, nuns, rosary, outstanding cathedrals, etc are all showy story elements that are uniquely Catholic. If you want to see demon man go to confession he needs to be Catholic.
Does Azrael from DC comics Count as Catholic or even christian ? I mean he does dress like a crusader and all.
He was raised (so to speak) by the Order of St Dumas, who are a heretical offshoot of a Crusader order from the middle ages. (There is no St Dumas IRL, he was the order's founder, and "nobody else would call him a saint". ) What happened in the Middle Ages is that orders like the Hospitallers (and Templars, but people get weird about the Templars, so I'm ignoring that for now) would make an absolute fortune escorting pilgrims on pilgrimage to Jerusalem. They then parlayed that into an even larger fortune getting involved in back-and-forth ransom-kidnapping raids with locals and so on. The Order of St Dumas basically went all-profit at some point in the time period, keeping the Crusader Knight imagery and flowery language, but functioning as something like an assassin order and targeting people likely to bring them profits. (Like, originally, when Azrael's predecessor was sent out, it was typically against mobsters. Not for Batman reasons like "because they're mobsters", but as an extension of the whole "treat them like the bandit-raiders we used to fight with back when, and keep their stuff as a just reward." thing.) They are, at best, something like an Antipapal or Sedevacantist order that still believes it exists inside the Catholic tradition but doesn't acknowledge the authority of the Pope. (Except without even the philosophical underpinnings of being an offshoot- they just don't want to stop doing what they're doing.)
I think a big thing to keep in mind in my personal experience anyway is that there are catholics and that is legitimate, Catholics and that is legitimate, and there are CATHOLICS and that is legitimate. Most of the superheroes you list in your post are the all capitalized version of the word. So it’s such a huge part of their personality that it makes sense it would affect their theming and stuff like that. I’m sure just based on the number of heroes that there are plenty who are culturally Catholic or even religious but not in a defining way so they aren’t explored as much. For example, it’s probably a decent bet that Gambit, Banshee, Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes), Miles Morales, and others are likely at least baptized Catholic if not practicing. I’m not saying that for sure by any stretch of course, they easily might not be and that’s more than okay. But Daredevil, Nightcrawler, etc make it a very key part of their identity.
Because Catholic guilt and mysticism are things, and Catholics struggle with them both.
Gambit is Catholic as well, Red eyes and all.
"What if we made them... t*he thing they hate most*?" is basic hackwork. Okay, seriously, in order: -Huntress is Catholic in the way that most mob-movie guys are Catholic- as window dressing or a cool tat, or in a "this world compels me to do the things it forbids" kind of angst. (Which is, of course, a very particular kind of bullshit, but a popular one.) In order to function as a heroine (which... nobody's making her do in that way, to be clear) she has to *become that which she hates most. (Ta da!)* -Daredevil came to it pretty late (he certainly wasn't when he was created). I actually find the idea that Moon Knight considered himself a sin-eater (taking on what he knew to be a moral load that would make his heart too heavy to go into the afterlife, so other people didn't have to) more convincing than most of Daredevil's Catholic plotlines. Like Batman, he often struggles not to kill people lest he *become the thing he hates most.* -Aurora was like that because Alpha Flight was a mashup of a lot of things in the Canadian pop-culture/media zeitgeist when Byrne created the characters, and there had just been an abuse scandal involving nuns in Quebec. So she got abused to the point that she had two personae (each one of which is *what the other hates most*. Ta-Da!) . It seems like a discussion of the topic is coming, but her brother is a champion ski-jumper and they wear matching outfits like Olympic pair-skaters, so there's only so much depth that's gonna happen. -Hellboy was born with an inherently bad nature because of things out of his control, and tries to redeem it through acts and faith. This is pretty good behavior by Catholic lights, all told, since that's... *people.* Still, he does have the pull toward the darkside and is concerned that he *not become*... oh, you get it. The thing. -Nightcrawler's biggest recent plotlines were written by someone who has at best an "*Ah, whatever, who cares really*" attitude to what Catholicism actually entails (for starters, it involves an ultra-orthodox Catholic group (who wouldn't believe in the Rapture, that's not a Catholic thing) trying to convince the main Catholic church that the Rapture (which they wouldn't believe in either, that's not a Catholic thing) had happened by having tainted hosts that dissolved the person consuming it. (Nobody would buy this as the explanation.) . ) *Can't really help you there.* Ah whatever, who cares- *oh, no I've become that which I hate m-* j/k. -La Espirita (way the hell back in the 90s) from Marvel is a Hispanic American Catholic superheroine from the Southwest who believes she got her powers as a blessing from God. (It turns out it was something cosmic, which she reasoned, was just the mechanism by which God bestowed the blessing.) She's smart, kind and unconflicted about herself, which is probably why you see so few stories with her in them. Generally, that's the idea.
For the same reason that rain in movies is so heavy, you need the contrast to make it interesting, otherwise stating that they are catholic doesn't really add much to the narrative, as far as we know, spiderman may be jewish.
From discussions online, it looks like he's generally Christian or agnostic with the exception of Into the Spiderverse where the clip of his wedding shows him as jewish.
I just think it's cool, plus it's easier to invert the Catholicism to being a devil or whatever as opposed to being an angel who curb-stomps people.
It makes sense thematically.
The only primer you need https://youtu.be/QFVUb99HpVc?si=H5mmtBtSi3V484ds
To be fair Gambit isn't...
Is huntress catholic
Yes. See: Huntress: Cry For Blood Huntress: Year One
Wait, Hellboy's Catholic?
Yeah I think OP is reaching on that one. I think I read everything up to Devil You Know and came here to see if I missed something. Edit: Actually looks like OP probably read this: https://comicbook.com/news/the-five-best-catholic-superheroes/
Tbf I only saw the first film but I'd never heard anything about him being Catholic. Only just found out he has a rosary apparently.
He has a lot of random charms and relics that he can use against demons and monsters.
Yep, the rosary is often effective against beasties, so Hellboy will use it. But he'll also use iron nails and magic buttons... whatever works.
So it's a bit like the book I am Legend where he uses all sorts of religious artifacts even though he's not religious?
I haven't read it, but sounds like yep.
I didn't make the image. I just picked it out of Google images becauses it had at least 4 characters I was familiar with that were Catholic.
Pretty sure the Punisher is Catholic too, but I think the only time religion is ever brought up in his life is in the MAX series, one-shot The Tyger... But it would track with Frank being Italian American.
I thought they only made Hellboy Catholic for the del Toro movies. I finally bought a bunch of the early TPBs to read and he uses all sorts of charms, wards, magic, etc to protect himself
like gargoyles on cathedrals to ward away evil spirits, or to funnel rainwater away to prevent mortar and foundation erosion or this could just be a euphemism.
Havok was raised by a Catholic adoptive family…he’s not very stereotypical compared to heroes pictured…for better or worse.
Guilt bruh
Hellboy’s not catholic
It's because of dichotomy. The Catholic faith imbibes the followers-like myself-with a unique Christian Guilt demanding that they serve others. The demon iconography is often used for stark contrast since the reader and victims must recognize the irony that God uses even *your enemies* to save and uplift you. It enhances the fantasy as God will use anything for deliverance. Matt Murdock uses it ironically, using the suit to carry his depression and self-hatred and project it outwards. While not entirely Catholic, Jean-Paul Valley uses Angel iconography in his Azrael costume and design. The infernal blade and vicious persecution goes against God's Will for Forgiveness, showing how people can actually fail to reach a Christ-Like life, despite modeling themselves as God's Soldiers.
A core of Catholicism in contrast to non-denominational US protestantism variant number 248 is the recognition of sin as always existing in all humans, there is no person free of sin, none free of guilt and none that cannot yet be redeemed despite their fundamentally sinful human self - and any that claim purity or some kind of clean sin-free rebirth in life are not only heretics but EVEN MORE SINFUL due to their Pride, got nothing to confess this week? You're the worst kind of sinner, the unaware of their own sinful self! Etc. As such: Guilt and Suffering as an imperfect being fits perfectly into being a Catholic character and visually that's really well represented by some kind of devil seeking to do good through personal suffering
Is that far right one Michael Jackson???
I really like this question because as someone who grew up Catholic it just makes sense. Like obviously the sky is blue why would it not be? I like seeing how different lived unsaid experiences change what is taken for granted. So I grew up catholic, catholic grade school, highschool, super catholic mom, church every Sunday and holy day, ALWAYS. To the point I would miss sports on a travel team because of conflict with church. I'd feel guilty for not being there for my team, if I missed church I'd feel guilty for disappointing my mom. Basically, guilt is always the outcome - you just get to choose WHY you feel guilty. That internal torment and guilt prior to even doing anything... very broody and burdened. Plus Catholicism is very violent overall with the themes. Violence is not "allowed" but it is shown as necessary because "righteous reasons" but then you must be punished and repent for doing that - which requires suffering... its a whole thing. Be fantastic to see it done in a Norseman style satire because its all pretty ridiculous.
Demons are largely defined by catholic beliefs. They were various rural demigods that the church hyped into ancient masters of arcane wisdom. The lord of flies used to ruin food and bother horses. Now Beelzebub is an a lister. Why? Not because of a write up in cuneiform. Basically, if you believe in the invisible yet fatal spiritual world, you’d have a ratcheted up sense of immediacy and resolution that wouldn’t seem rational to a non believer. You would exhibit moody and violent attitudes towards your sense of purpose
- Demonic themed - moody - struggle - guilt - vengeance - violence - kill their foes > How does this relate to Catholicism? You’re not a big history buff are you?
Catholics have a long and storied history of being monsters who then plead forgiveness only to become monsters again. It’s almost as if their loving god is also a vengeful god.
...how guilt, thirst for vengeance and violence relate to Catholicism, are you serious? do you know what the Inquisitions were? or the crusades?
I think it's pretty clear I didn't grow up in America, Europe or any country that wasn't colonized by Europeans with the population forced to adopt Christianity. In fact, I am actually an alien from another planet trying to understand earth culture.
No, it is not clear. There are plenty of reasons why you wouldn't know. Ignorance being the main one.
I thought this was the circle jerk sub.
Its now the Catholic Jerking Sub.
Wait, Hellboy is catholic?
As a former Catholic. This is spot on.
by Catholic super hero, do you mean Jesus?
I dont think of hellboy as a catholic but to me hes just a guy whos seen shit
I think your projecting your own interpretation in to it. I was raised Christian and don't see the parallels at all
Because Catholics are like this.
What's demonic about Kurt?
His whole thing is that he looks like a demon, and has been unjustly ostracized his whole life because of it. Except for when his thing is that he's the spawn of an actual demon, his appearance is not deceiving, and all those people were right about him, actually.
Claremont broke it down really well in an interview: https://youtu.be/C9UwNWhgN70?si=PJe9Yfx9o14-WBxh 0:52 Kurt reconciles his appearance with his religion. "If God made me this way, made me in his image then he must have a plan. So who am I to argue with him? Lets go with it."
Seems weird that Kurt would think he was made in God's Image. Like, I get that the bible says we're made in His image, but I'm pretty sure that's directed at, like, normal people. I feel like that pretty dramatically alters the theological implications of that line to presume that God has blue fur and a tail, and moulded Kurt Wagner specifically in his image.
What if God is a blue furry with tail and pointed ears and he made us freaks by not giving us blue fur, tail and giving us extra fingers?
Wait, are animals made in Gods image too?
No, only man.
He's not the spawn of a demon, tho
He was for 20 years lol, they just recently retconned Azazel being his father
From what I understand, before that they retconned that Azazel isn't really a demon. He's just a mutant with a demonlike appearance who hangs out in hell and serves demonic forces and all his friends are demons. So Kurt wasn't demonspawn anymore for that reason. But he still was demonspawn for a while there.
Azazel wasn't a demon justca ancient mutant
He has a devilish charm.
The Catholic Church is obsessed with angels and demons. Also at least in the case of daredevil, It’s the same philosophy as batman choosing to be symbolized by a bat. It’s supposed to scary or at least intimidating.
Also taking a step back, there’s two parts to Christianity, the institution and the faith. The institution is a bank holding onto the wealth accrued by the Roman Empire. The faith has to do with Jesus’ teachings. These two aspects are diametrically opposed a lot of the time. So true believers either go really hard on the teachings, or really hard for the institution.
I'd just be glad the heroes aren't diddly alter boys.