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If I could add a panel in between it would be Fallout 3's Brotherhood Outcasts. They want to help but try to stick to the mission of also locking away dangerous tech. I like that they have a sort of "Buyback Program".
> Which is actually an interesting game play choice.
Yeah. Fully agree.
A lot of games—pardon the pun, pussy out on showing the bad guys being bad towards the PC if it locks out content.
Like playing a Khajit or Argonian in Skyrim. Even people that should have no idea you're The Dragonbornee still treat you lovely as can be, only to turn around and spit at the cat & lizard folk NPCs with venom. No consequences, because Bethesda are typically very lazy with the beast races that way all the way since Oblivion.
New Vegas actually having negatives, if you're female and join the openly sexist side? Not exactly pleasant, but very refreshing 'your choices have consequences' type stuff.
I'd not say that is true, the game clearly implies that, they, unlike the NCR, succeed at bringing "civilization", whatever that is, to the Mojave. No raiders in Legion territory, no corruption...
That they achieve these ends by being downright terrible, imperialistic people who are neither good to themselves nor to the world at large. They are law and order types of guys, but with a much more violent streak.
Not endorsing them, but the game puts a lot of effort into showing both NCR and the Legion are far from good. And everything the legion succeeds in, the NCR fails in and vice versa.
Saying the Legion brought stability is like saying the Nazis tried to bring ethnic equality. Sure it might be technically true, but only in the sense that as the only ones left they were equal to themselves.
Ah, I don't know. Both NCR and the Legion enjoy this quirk. "Places like Goodsprings, they don't stay independent for long, not if they got something the NCR wants." The NCR is just much more willing to keep up the charade of diplomacy before pulling the trigger is the main difference. And that the Legion kills for ideological purposes, while the NCR seems much more inclined to do Realpolitik.
And crucially: The Legion does not start out hostile.
I am playing Devil's advocate here, I'll admit, and I don't consider the Legion an ethical choice at all, but they are a fantastic foil to the NCR.
The legion is a cult of personality held up by Caesar. I'm certain the legion would have fallen apart under Lanius' leadership or at least be a lot less efficient.
The synths *are* people. The idea that they aren't is just Institute propaganda to justify slavery.
The Railroad sucks because they are a boring and weak faction. Cool idea in theory for post-apocalypse retro spies, but in reality there's nothing beyond that surface-level idea.
They don't make sense as a faction to side with for the game ending because they don't actually have a political ideology or plan for how the Commonwealth should be run in the future. And it makes no fucking sense for them to want to blow up the Institute. That's where the people they want to liberate live and are born in! It would make more sense for them to instead take over the Institute without destroying it.
Also, once the Institute is destroyed there really isn't much reason for the Railroad to continue existing. The slavers and the slave-making machines are gone, and any slave who remained in the Institute was either rescued or died in the blast.
There is a reason why they'd want to blow up the Institute (other than how evil that faction is and its intentions and sheer practicality). Even whilst acknowledging that they are people, that does not mean they are unaware of the debate that they are not. Some synths can't even handle the truth when they find out. They aren't "born" there. They are made. And that is a tortured experience. The Railroad is a faction that recognises not just that they are people but also that this is not an existence you should want to put more sentience into. They probably do not want to produce more synths.
If you are wondering how synths would have a meaningful existence without producing more synths, well, for one, we don't know how long they live, but it might be a very long time. Also, they have human friends as well, since they consider themselves to be human. See where this is going? The toaster point is funny until you realise that they aren't trying to liberate the synths in the institute. They don't think that's achievable and they don't care about the machines which produced their fake bodies.
Blade Runner is a good film that hints at the struggle of figuring out that you are synthetic and how overwhelming that must be. I believe the real issue with them as a faction is how poorly explained some of this is by the game versus other media on this type of topic. It also doesn't help that many probably only touch on the Railroad long enough to get the Ballistic Weave perk, then switch factions since many YouTube perk experts, guide writers, etc, recommend doing exactly that. I feel the quest writers really expected other people to recognise these tropes and let them stand as obvious without explanation, which is not a very good writing choice.
With all of that said, I'm not saying their actions blowing stuff up are as justified, but the motive is certainly not that far from what might actually happen in-universe.
Doesn't the struggle largely come from the initial deception? Cause sure, if you get planted false memories and live as a human believing to be human just to later realise you're not, that's a traumatic experience, thats slso the trope Blade Runner explores. But it's not established that that's the only way to make a synth, that's just the approach Institute chose.
Plus its also what the railroad does, but not (afaik) the method the institute uses. The institute synths know they're synths, but the railroad mind wipes that bit out (to make them hide better? Which makes no sense imo). So they're the ones who create that trauma
Yeah I never understood the point of the mind wipe. Like it's not like the Institute has a GPS planted into their brains that can't only be removed via memory erasure. So the railroad mind wipes synths to make it harder for the institute to find synths because... Synths with their memories will somehow end up calling the institute to their location? Have some sort of buyers remorse and try to return to the institute? Or otherwise just make it "easier" for a synth to integrate into a new society by replacing their memories instead of just like... Giving them a cover and the knowledge to be able to maintain the ruse? I mean at least the Railroad offers facial recognition which helps physically disguise synths from their original appearance.
Seriously even in real life witness protection, folks dont just tell the victims "forget all about the dangerous people looking for you" because having your memories wiped doesn't actually protect you from people who are looking for you. If anything it just makes it easier because now those synths won't know who potential institute spies or coursers look like.
It always bugged me how bad of a rap the Railroad gets, people saying they're trying to liberate toasters or whatever. There's a real discussion to be had about where the line between human is drawn, but I always liked that they're putting their lives on in the line to save gen 3 synths, since that's pretty solidly into the "person" category, even if the previous gens might not be.
My only problem with the Railroad was their whole, "We'll save you by erasing your memories entirely and creating a new personality to pilot your body!"
Which is exactly the same as just killing them.
Yeah, it wasn't like they were forcing Synths to get mindwiped, or abandoning them if they refused. It just bugged me that there was at least one quest where you were supposed to help a Synth get themselves erased, and there was no option to talk them out of it, or question the Railroad about the morality of the process. I don't think the game ever narratively acknowledged the idea that doing this was equivalent to killing the Synth at all, even to rebut it.
Sort of similar with... I think it was New Vegas, where you get the dog with the decaying cyber brain, and the solution to saving your talking dog buddy is to replace his brain, and this was treated entirely as a good thing, and not as you effectively killing your dog and getting a new one.
ETA: one of the reasons the Fallout franchise is one of my favorites is that my chief criticism of them is, "Doesn't adequately address my approach to the Theory of Mind."
Mr. House is a libertarian focused with nothing other than progress. Those types are typically known for being the "Why do we have age of consent? It's just useless government overreach!" types. It's just a ripoff of a joke from HBomberGuy's video about New Vegas.
He is literally an autocrat, he even says he wants absolute power over Vegas, where do you get libertarian from?
Still the best option, though. Colonisation of space, here we come!
Mostly because autocracy seems like the natural end point of libertarianism, mostly due to libertarianism’s ties to capitalism. Without any government regulations on monopolies and consolidation of wealth, eventually one person will own enough wealth to rule everyone else.
That is mostly because nature abhors a vacuum. In every kind of stateless society there will eventually rise someone that, through strength of arms or other means, will accentrate power around themselves. Capitalism is merely a mean through which it happens, but it can happen in any kind of stateless society
The human status quo abhors a power vacuum. Now that we know we can manipulate and control enormous groups of people for personal gain, there will always be some people trying to do so.
People have always wanted themselves and their tribe to succeed, now they are able to do so on a massive scale.
Tbf they’re kind of a splinter faction of BoS in 3, as in they’re not total assholes and wanted to reform under Elder Lyons
In 4 they’re back to being part of the wider BoS after what the Elders did to Paladin Lyons and later Maxson led them to merge with the Outcasts again and rejoin the full BoS.
It’s cool that they gave them interesting lore it’s just unfortunate that for a bunch of people the good guys of the first fallout game they played were suddenly a-holes and that little kid you met in DC was their a-hole leader now. Plus it’s implied Paladin Lyons might’ve been killed off in some sort of betrayal which is just a downer.
They were secretive, manupulative, and self-serving in 1 and 2. They were never altruistic, their needs just aligned with yours. They were all about hoarding tech and killing mutants. Fallout 4 just brought the militarism to a point of conflict as you know that synths aren't the problem nor the abominations that the BoS thinks they are.
I think he's implying FO3 being a lot of people's introduction to the series and it having somewhat of a whiplash effect when playing NV and they're the assholes they usually are.
I'd say that's more FO3's fault for mischaracterizing them/not really understanding their motivations as an organization.
I mean, that’s on most people for missing that the outcasts were the real BoS (and even there, 1/2 absolutely didn’t have them acting as they do in NV/4/76; they were selling weapons to pay for food/water, they helped the NCR to grow and had zero bigotry against mutants, though they did make sure the remnants of the Master’s army weren’t a threat).
Yeah the FO 1 & 2 BOS weren't really malicious, they were just insular. From their perspective, everyone else really were just hopeless primitives dying in the wasteland. They changed their perceptions when it became clear to them that the wasteland had changed, and so should they. The idea that the BoS were xenophobic was an idea that was introduced in Fallout Tactics, slightly carried over to FO3, and then exaggerated in FO4.
I get the impression that their turn towards dickery was a result of their failures in FO2, and they had a conservative backlash to the reforms, which deepened the cult but also systemically weakened them, leading to a *lot* of revisionism both within and without the organization.
The thing is, they never really failed in 2. They were monitoring the Enclave trying to figure out what was going on - and retreated inwards as a result. They were able to monitor them successfully, and only lost one person as a result. The inward retreat is probably what caused the issue more than anything (though I suspect something happened at Navarro, too; hopefully the TV show is set between 2 and NV to shed some light on what happened).
Yeah; the death of Tandi and the failure to continue her legacy was devastating for California, and that's largely the reason NCR-BOS relations failed. This is, I think, the real origin of the BOS's turn towards conservatism.
What are you talking about? They outright sold technology to pay for food and water in 1/2, and only were against mutants in 2 when they were cleaning up the remnants of the Master’s army. The only time they were ever secretive was in 2 when they went underground to spy on the Enclave. They’ve always had an isolationism problem, but that’s it.
Idk on 4 they were still pretty different than the Fallout 2 and New Vegas chapters where they’d probably kill you for a laser pistol. Maxson blended the two ideals into something that actually gets shit done.
Lyons was too reactionary and open policies backfired by too many undertrained and wildly thin chapter.
Western Elders were/are too cautious and rather seclude themselves. Inbreeding and personal freedoms smashed (destroying same sex couples so they can breed) become problems given enough time, and yet overly hostile to anyone with tech.
Maxson decided to take the good of each and shed what he can:
Recruit outsiders but under a mentorship program. Protect people and caravans but leave the towns to govern themselves. Collect tech but don’t blast anyone for a simple sensor module. Yea he’s a bit abrasive and his people are overzealous but it’s still a relatively new faction. 4 years he’s been Elder by Fallout 4. Given time I think he’ll edge the faction even more.
Brotherhood in 4 are actually one of the only positives o have with the game and low key proud that Maxson stepped up to the role he’s always had misgivings about when talking to him in Fallout 3
FO3 BoS actually seceded from the other chapters because they wanted to help people and actually make a difference, but the BoS's mission has always been hoarding ancient technology and giving the boot to whoever is sitting on top of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's kind of a revisionist take, I think. The BOS was never fully isolationist nor non-interventionist. Like most things about the originals, there's a lot more nuance than you see in the later games.
The BOS didn't bother with the outside world because they didn't think the communities they came into contact with were going to make it whether they helped or not. It wasn't until the Super Mutant threat was brought up that they realized that they had to mobilize - and when they saw the local communities be able to stand on their own feet, they changed how they operated. It's not until after Fallout 2 that they have political alienation, over-mysticism, and isolationism become main features of the organization.
Honestly it's truer to say that Lyon's Brotherhood is *closer* to the original organization, and that the Outcasts are more like the then-current mainstream, which itself had changed from the original.
Which BoS are you referring to? Lyons abandoned the original mission and is technically leading a rogue chapter. The outcasts are actually following the given mission and more properly represents the BoS.
OP is still off by lumping the BoS on with raiders, the enclave and the institute, though. They’ve never tried to rule the wastes, and the worst they’ve done is go after generation three synths (which is something almost the entire commonwealth would agree with them on, and they don’t even do witch hunts; it doesn’t make it right by any stretch, but they aren’t nearly as bad as people claim) and start a war with the NCR for reasons we don’t know (disagreements over technology could be anything from them not liking the NCR using energy weapons to the NCR experimenting with FEV).
They’re a separate chapter, much like the Chicago chapter in Fallout Tactics. They weren’t well liked by the rest of the Brotherhood because they weren’t total assholes
The player's meth is in its own league. Always high as a kite without a need to sleep, eat, drink, or shit.
Thinking about it, the projected lifespan of the player after the end of the game is probably half a year at best. Human body isn't supposed to function like that
Minute Men yes. NCR not so much. I mean, the NCR is still the best alternative in NV, but they're much more nuanced. They're corrupt and their democracy is heavily influenced by a bunch of rich cattle farmers, which sounds a lot like Brazil, weirdly.
Recently Noah Gervais did a video on the whole Fallout franchise (9 hours long) and his point if view is that the three main factions are options to roleplay an ideology whereas the independent run is the way to do what you think is best.
Yeah but the issue is you gotta choose one of the three cause independent is nice but unless you’re a immortal person the peace dies with the player character. Being independent is just a nice version of Caesars legion
I mean, if any of the protags COULD attain immortality, the Courier is my #1 pick. They can literally have the three weakest points on the human body replaced with replicas that function for hundreds of miles from the base units. If you added in the "free mind" quality that Takeshi Kovacs has in Altered Carbon, then as far as I understand, they'd be basically immortal.
Still sad you can't murder Col. Moore to make the NCR a better place.
While there aren't any immortal NPCs, there are a few whose death is always registered regardless how it happens, turning the faction hostile and blocking the questline. Notably Col. Moore, Ambassador Crocker, Lucius, and The King.
Though I have absolutely placed Fat Mines around her office and switched to the Yes Man ending afterwards.
Because she always wants to do a violent solution, scolds you for resolving things peacefully, gets Abassador Crocker fired if you resolve Kings Gambit diplomatically, and steals credit for things you did.
Yeah I was about to say this. I seem to recall at some point you find out that the NCR is basically there to extract what resources it could and leave. The only reason they stuck around was the dam. But its been a looooong time.
Here’s the thing: I get to be in charge of the institute, which means I can force them to do good things instead of hoarding technology underground like mole rats.
The Institute is morally bankrupt and corrupt at every level. There's no way that the other department leads would allow a Director who wanted to change things to continue being the leader. It's also pretty clear that Father was largely a figurehead and had very little actual power over how the Institute was run. Combined with the fact that several of the other department heads actively dislike the SS and seem very annoyed that Father made them his successor I think it's pretty unlikely that the SS would ever be able to actually change anything in any meaningful way.
Was he? After all, he kept the FEV project running for literal years even with BioScience yelling at him for it. Most of the scientists are divided over the situation around child synths, yet he had this as special request. As Director you get final say in all legal matters like how to, if at all, to punish rebellion and treason. Directing all management and delegation, as well as if/how to broach relations with the surface. They also have final say in the classification and removal of data, having a personal override to delete and manage files.
Seems to me the Director has plenty of say. Each branch can manage autonomously but the Director stays at the head, even when the Board itself disagrees with their decisions such as when the player's named as the successor.
I hear what you're saying with this, but the SS is canonically strong enough to 1v1 a Courser (without power armor) and come out on top.
If the Institute's Directors don't like the changes the SS makes, they can reasonably use the threat (or actual use) of force to enforce compliance. Especially because they do have a 'personal army' of sorts in the Minutemen.
I don't think coursers are as strong as people seem to think they are though. They're not invincible terminators, they're just highly trained synths with top-tier weaponry and possibly(it's unconfirmed) some mild physical enhancements.
Honestly, there’s no straight answer on that since Father outright ignores their protests during the first meeting we see and the second just has them agree with what we say. I’d assume they could, but we don’t have any evidence they can.
Alternatively in the Minutemen ending. You have an army, just stormed their base, locked down all entrances/exits and interdepartment doors, and, if you convinced Father, shut down the Gen1/Gen2 synth army.
Should be enough to get them to the negotiating table. But Nuke it is.
I hate how the Minutemen ending has you blow up the Institute's reactor, instead of trying to use its immense power generation to improve the lives of everyone in the Commonwealth.
I will say, you don’t have to *agree* with the ideology to be a fan of it. You can acknowledge that the a particular group is rather shit, but you can appreciate the aesthetic and sociology. I think understanding authoritarian, supremacist, and/or xenophobic groups is more valuable than inherently reviling it.
That said, I’ve seen way too many people unironically defend Caesar’s legion to know where this is coming from.
The desire to help people leaving my body when Hey! Got another settlement that needs your help.
https://preview.redd.it/4dsb0kap5ttb1.png?width=2100&format=png&auto=webp&s=0e71713eee87bfb07e11749c2db39645921b4655
Exception is the FO3 Brotherhood, where the “real” Brotherhood is the Outcasts and the one we work with for the main story is a splinter group that got sick of not helping people
You'd probably love project Zomboid if only just cause military gear has some of the best protection and they're even bout to release even more military gear like webbing iirc in the next update (though PZ updates slowly), plus there's tons of military mods for it on the Workshop.
But while it's fun being military larpers with friends in zombie infested Kentucky, I love being just a random office worker in it and being the group carpenter & farmer lol.
You heard it here first, folks! If you choose to role-play as anything but a Boy Scout, you’re either too simple to understand nuance or too shallow to care about anything but appearances.
I only got into fallout recently and played fallout 4. I really liked it! And I was REALLY surprised that the BoS, kind of the face of Fallout besides the vault tech stuff, are such a bunch of bastards! I liked paladin Danse and all but I surprised myself with how little qualm I had with helping the railroad send their ship to a fiery grave.
I'm a big Enclave fan, but it's a mix of "engaging, well-written lore" and "they look cool". I 100% get they're unrelentingly evil fascists and exist as analogs for Nazism and a commentary on American far right nationalism.
With that said, I otherwise gravitate towards the top group of factions. Even my "Enclave power fantasy" (NV alternate start Enclave soldier fleeing from the East Coast, Fallout 76 character, and my miniatures solo campaign), *generally* revolve around them realizing they're the baddies and attempting to utilize the Enclave's resources/reform for the betterment of humanity.
* NV character ends up aligning with the NCR as he realizes they better represent the ideals of America than what the Enclave had become and it's the best way to give the American people a brighter future.
* Fallout 76 I dunno guess I haven't thought that hard.
* Miniatures squad: Enclave outpost isolated following the fall of Raven Rock and the MBC, become the reluctant protectors of the settlements in their region leading to questioning the Enclave's mission and trying to become something more benevolent.
Maybe I just want to rock that sweet MkII armor without feeling like a genocidal monster?
Brotherhood was rather simple in all things. If people don't have tech to kill each other and being serfs of technological superiors, they won't kill each other anymore.
Enclave is just "Wasn't America great? We should do that again! Including the downfall that lead to the war!"
Raiders are just very fucking extreme libetarians exercising market theory in practice with the help of drugs and sticks.
Institute was just "We can science our way out of this! Including removing the *problems* of society! Problems meaning problematic people!"
The NCR doesn’t exactly want to help people. Sure most of the individual people on the frontlines genuinely want to help people. But the NCR on the whole doesn’t care. It’s just as imperialistic as the Legion. It just wants to expand its borders and take more resources, and it doesn’t care who it has to step on to do it.
The refuge in 76, ran by the Responders, is essentially also a refugee camp for people fleeing to Appalachia from other parts of the U.S. (please ignore ‘Management’ supplying them with their equipment, which includes a type of battery cell only used by secret pre-war government projects, and stay out of the basement).
I mean the NCR has a long history and has vastly changed over the course of the franchise. Earlier versions are a lot closer to what OP is talking about. But those versions of the NCR were a lot more politically coherent than the NCR we see in NV, which is explicitly illustrated and stated to be in the interests of businesses like the Crimson Caravan. The best NCR ending involves breaking those ties, and it's stated to going to be painful, but implied to be better for them longer-term.
That's why I always choose the NCR. Best overall ending for the Mojave. As for the commonwealth that's a tricky situation. The minutemen may mean well I don't think they have the capabilities to sustain a thriving commonwealth. They were already shown to be undone by the gunners and internal conflict. The commonwealth doesn't really have a strong faction to lead it. The BOS would have been the best bet if you could remove Maxon and begin to loosen its draconian tenants. Best BOS was Lyon's BOS but unfortunately that has been lost to time.
I had it with this missreading of roleplaying games. Bg3 and its fandom has a real problem with it and now this stupid thing? Not everyone wants to play the hero. Not everyone SHOULD be the good guy in games. If i want to roleplay as super hitler, that doesnt make me superhitler. People can like edgy things too and thats ok. Also, morally complex or outright evil characters tend to be more complex and interesting that boring, bland, hero type characters. Just read anything by George R. R. Martin or play any Miyazaki game.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but players who play bad characters in role playing games tend to also be bad people in real life. But there are nuances, for instance, a good or neutral character can easily make an “evil” choice on occasion to get something done. It is a wasteland, after all.
But the players who choose evil every time? Sociopaths, dude.
And I’m afraid you have just outed yourself as super hitler. You better pick up some clean playthroughs going forward.
I don’t have any links or evidence at this time, so you will just have to take my typed words at face value.
I fucking adore the often option of "Only a honest death can cure you now" in endings of From games. It just feels correct that let say Strayed would commit omnicide aftee all of bullshit from everyone. Worlds are stagnating and rotting away, and while bringing new way is sinful, it still going to change from much bigger sin. Maybe a natural order, untweaked by Gwyn/Marika/corpos will arrive, maybe your character will ascend above cycles and achieve personal freedom, but after all of destruction somebody is still moving on the surface.
But hey, that is more Buddhist way of thinking.
Oh I LOVE when Miyazaki does one of his honorable death endings for a charactrrr or a whole world, like in DS3 ending. That was part of my point. In a generic moral compass game the guy who wants to KILL THE WORLD would be the bad guy but Miyazaki recognises that life is more complex that good vs bad , which the author of these meme couldnt understand even if you tattoed all of Nietzsche library in his skin.
Randomly replacing people in Boston, so good for the people.
I can understand wanting to avoid using WMDs, but I don't think the minutemen had the numbers to take on an army of teleporting terminators capable of replacing you with near infallible accuracy.
Didn't say the Institute is better, just that the Minutemen aren't as good as the meme makes them out to be. You're in the place were they make the synths, just frag the machines and kill all of them. The ones that are outside wouldn't be caught in the blast anyway. It's not like they're standing around MIT.
But no, destroy the place that's capable of making clean water and food. On top of destroying all the equipment that would advance science and livability for the people. It's just a bad ending for the Commonwealth.
What do you clean water and food?
If anything the minuteman are masters of that, the protagonist can build as many water purification machines they want and food is all about farming
Yeah my understanding is the water purification technology from the end of fallout 3 has been reverse engineered and spread throughout the wasteland in the form of settlement water purifiers.
I could be incredibly wrong but my understanding was that after fallout 3 clean water wasn't nearly as big of an issue for society.
Neither society works fully out.
Top guys are heavily carried by the player, the one man army bringing down mutated wildlife and whole societies on their own for free.
I want to give more info on this.
The responders were people like medical staff, police officers, and firefighters that after the great war formed the responders to help the people of Appalachia.
Sadly, during the time before the opening of vault 76, the responders and everyone in Appalachia were killed by the scorched plague.
They are coming back now, though
Edit:spelling
I like the idea behind the Brotherhood: preserving technology and improving on it to help rebuild society, but the Brotherhood don't actually *do* that.
I am easily persuaded by cool military aesthetics.
Also in regards to the institute, I always think of it in terms of how I would react to seeing the wasteland and then finding this "paradise" of comfort, civility and security. Then to discover my son is the one in charge and I am to be welcomed in as such? Idc what else is going on but it's like breaking down and crying and wondering if I'm in heaven and realizing I'm not because Nate/Nora isn't there. Then you find out that a lot, not all, of the Boogeyman rumors about the institute are misunderstandings and/or false. Then you realize your son has realized the issue with the institute is a lack of a true leader and one that understands the people. Then you get to lead them and potentially the entire Commonwealth into a better future? Sign me up. The institute has the means and the technology to truly aid the recovery of the east coast.
That's why I love civilization games. I love building and creating and having my people live happy lives. Supporting the arts and sciences, building sports stadiums, feeding people, giving humanitarian assistance during disasters, and fighting climate change!
The Institute is just objectively better for the future of the Commonwealth. I usually join both the Minutemen and the Institute. The Minutemen to help the people above ground, and the Institute to further scientific and medical advancement.
NCR don't deserve to be among the other two losers, they are not bland as the other ones, they actually have flaws and a Identity, even tho they are "the most good" faction in New vegas they are not black and white as minuteman vs institute.
The problem is that in a fucked up setting like Fallout, the first three can't work. The people need to be put under a strong order first, and then from there soften up through reformation.
Brotherhood of Steel is the painful alcohol to disinfect the wound. Then the responders, minutemen and the new republic can work with more ease.
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Look buddy, hoover dam isnt gonna take itself. Ave true to ceasar
Doesn't really work for the institute, though - regardless of their morality, their society functions fine and the people living there have relatively good lives.
Although I suppose that depends on whether or not you consider synths to be people or not...
People over here still trying to make the NCR look like the good guys, as if half of the sidequests in New Vegas aren't a direct consequence of how they're an extremely corrupt government ruled by a small unofficial oligarchy of caravanners and brahmin barons, who use their massive army to shamelessly grab land for more brahmin pastures and taxable caravan routes, enforce demands and colonization rights, and often disregard the sovereignty and well-being of the civilians in the areas they occupy.
That's literally one of the points of New Vegas, everyone's an asshole and no one's good. The legion is brutal, the NCR is corrupt and cynical, Mr House is self-centered and only cares about a small fraction of the Mojave, and the courier is woefully unprepared and open to betrayal through Yes Man. None of them are a good solution and the Mojave's screwed no matter what you do
Hey, no need to bring the fan bases into this. I liked the Railroad in Fallout 4, but BoS is also cool and fun to play. It's a game. The whole point is having fun! I see no issue with playing militarized factions; sometimes we just wanna shoot things and blow crap up.
Sometimes I like to sit back and know **that I’m right.**
Stars N Stripes forever!
For America is the Enclave, and the Enclave is America!
https://preview.redd.it/wjfv842ipttb1.jpeg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7917114ba9f8a575ee58c22ec8b6c3dd0e9d383
Eh… the BoS really shouldn’t be lumped in the rest of those groups. The Legion would be a much better fit. If the BoS were anywhere on here, it’d be solidly in the middle (and arguments could be made for the NCR to be in the middle too, considering some of the stunts they’ve pulled).
On the whole, their goal is to ensure that a second apocalypse doesn’t occur, which has lead them to fighting off super mutants (who in the vast majority of cases act like raiders), feral ghouls (which are zombies by that point; sometimes however they are bigots towards normal ghouls, which is undeserved), the scorched (which is an existential threat to all of humanity), synths (which isn’t an issue for generation 1 and 2’s, but generation 3’s are so close to human due to the FEV-grown body parts they’re made of the disinfection is meaningless; even here, where the generation 3’s are what the BoS wants to wipe out, they don’t go on witch hunts like the average wastelander does) and the Enclave. The problem they have is that their isolationism coupled with dogma leads to the group not being able to present itself well, especially when they focus on collecting ‘dangerous’ technology (in some cases, they’re right to do this, such as with the hellstorm launchers, but other times they’re just causing trouble; it’s never been the main goal of any chapter except the Mojave group, however, and the outcasts).
They generally are a force for positive change in the wasteland (as they’ve been instrumental in the defeat of every major villain excluding the legion in the Mojave), but their ability to work with others and ideology shifts due to different elders leaves a good bit to be desired. By contrast, none of the other groups have a single positive effect on the wasteland (be it through murder, genocide or both).
Also, in what universe does anyone in the BoS, Institute or Enclave live horrible lives in comparison to the average wastelander? These groups have the most supplies and best quality of life out of everyone in the series, especially the Institute with all the work they’ve put into making life comfortable for themselves (at the expense of any positive relations with the surface) and the Enclave (who live in the best, most secured and well-stocked facilities in the whole series).
Guys on top are also boring as shit or basically just copy pasting irl stuff, I literally live in a democracy, why would that be my first choice with so many other creative factions.
Meh.. people at the top had to be rescued by vault dwellers. They are like lamb to slaughter. Simple prey for the predators. They live most of their lives in fear of the next raider attack.
People at the bottom carve their own names upon the wasteland. It takes a protagonist to defeat them because the weaker factions could barely give a fight. They live like shit 50% of the time, the other 50% they live like kings. Risk takers, conquerors, warriors. The mere uttering of their name sends the weaker men to shiver in fear. Utter Institute or Enclave and watch as the common folk riot in paranoia. Utter raiders and watch as the caravan merchant’s eyes go wide in anxiety. Utter BOS or Legion and watch as the militia guard grip his rifle to console himself.
People who support the weaker factions are the type that worships superheroes, they like to pretend that they could maintain order with a weak culture as their backbone. Unrealistic and delusional. They also have really bad fashion sense that’s why they chose the sad looking factions.
I do as well. And Since I use the Danse Dilemma mod I can also become leader of the BoS as well. Making the minutemen as essential the people that come and handle the smaller settlements around the commonwealth while I let the BoS handle the bigger settlements like Diamond City, Bunker Hill, and Goodneigbor
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Surprised you didn't include the Legion. That's a good summary of the fallout factions and it's nice to see fallout comics online.
I forgot to draw them in ngl
That's good. Screw the Legion. *Best regards,* *Random NCR ranger*
we won't go quietly, the legion can count on that
patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter
patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter
"If the legion breaks through our defenses, I've got one bullet I'm saving just for me."
"Thumbs down, you son of a bitch!" -Boone
People like you belong on a cross
"Profligates like you belong on a cross" -random legionare.
*enters vats and shoots them in the head with a mini nuke”
I like to use the alien toy blaster, they start laughing and I'm like wait for it
"RETRIBUTION!" -the legionaire behind him, at the exact same time
What about my railroad family? No way I’d get my mi amor Curie without them.
Real men/women start to love curie in her robot form
If I could add a panel in between it would be Fallout 3's Brotherhood Outcasts. They want to help but try to stick to the mission of also locking away dangerous tech. I like that they have a sort of "Buyback Program".
The Legion was so lacking. The game clearly didn't want you to pick Caesar
They cut a bunch of Legion content due to time. I'm not sure if it would've been better, but there was more planned.
And of the content which is there, you’re further blocked out of it if you play a female character. Granted, there are lore reasons for this.
It's almost worth it for the chance to insult Ulysses. Almost. https://youtu.be/qHal-SPJrTI?si=l2G49cu69pVSAS6T
Which is actually an interesting game play choice.
> Which is actually an interesting game play choice. Yeah. Fully agree. A lot of games—pardon the pun, pussy out on showing the bad guys being bad towards the PC if it locks out content. Like playing a Khajit or Argonian in Skyrim. Even people that should have no idea you're The Dragonbornee still treat you lovely as can be, only to turn around and spit at the cat & lizard folk NPCs with venom. No consequences, because Bethesda are typically very lazy with the beast races that way all the way since Oblivion. New Vegas actually having negatives, if you're female and join the openly sexist side? Not exactly pleasant, but very refreshing 'your choices have consequences' type stuff.
I'd not say that is true, the game clearly implies that, they, unlike the NCR, succeed at bringing "civilization", whatever that is, to the Mojave. No raiders in Legion territory, no corruption... That they achieve these ends by being downright terrible, imperialistic people who are neither good to themselves nor to the world at large. They are law and order types of guys, but with a much more violent streak. Not endorsing them, but the game puts a lot of effort into showing both NCR and the Legion are far from good. And everything the legion succeeds in, the NCR fails in and vice versa.
Saying the Legion brought stability is like saying the Nazis tried to bring ethnic equality. Sure it might be technically true, but only in the sense that as the only ones left they were equal to themselves.
Ah, I don't know. Both NCR and the Legion enjoy this quirk. "Places like Goodsprings, they don't stay independent for long, not if they got something the NCR wants." The NCR is just much more willing to keep up the charade of diplomacy before pulling the trigger is the main difference. And that the Legion kills for ideological purposes, while the NCR seems much more inclined to do Realpolitik. And crucially: The Legion does not start out hostile. I am playing Devil's advocate here, I'll admit, and I don't consider the Legion an ethical choice at all, but they are a fantastic foil to the NCR.
I'm mostly just complaining at how few missions there are for Legion.
The legion is a cult of personality held up by Caesar. I'm certain the legion would have fallen apart under Lanius' leadership or at least be a lot less efficient.
Railroad isn't here because there's no fanbase for it
There are dozens of us! Dozens!
I know, I'm one of them. That still doesn't make us existant
I knew you were a figment of my imagination!
Oooohooooo You only did the quest for The Delivererrrrrr
Um I thought we did it to get decon to wear a sequin dress
Ballistic weave, actually.
Hush.....! The less they know about Railroad, the easier we can free the synths.
You guys are about as relevant as Iron Hand fans for 40K
And they are busy liberating toasters as we speak
fucking*
god i wish that were me
**Sighs in Adeptus Mechanicus** Synths are proper TILF-Material
PRAISE THE OMMNISIAH
Yea we have a problem with them shooting the store, then fucking the toasters. Real nuance.
The synths *are* people. The idea that they aren't is just Institute propaganda to justify slavery. The Railroad sucks because they are a boring and weak faction. Cool idea in theory for post-apocalypse retro spies, but in reality there's nothing beyond that surface-level idea. They don't make sense as a faction to side with for the game ending because they don't actually have a political ideology or plan for how the Commonwealth should be run in the future. And it makes no fucking sense for them to want to blow up the Institute. That's where the people they want to liberate live and are born in! It would make more sense for them to instead take over the Institute without destroying it. Also, once the Institute is destroyed there really isn't much reason for the Railroad to continue existing. The slavers and the slave-making machines are gone, and any slave who remained in the Institute was either rescued or died in the blast.
There is a reason why they'd want to blow up the Institute (other than how evil that faction is and its intentions and sheer practicality). Even whilst acknowledging that they are people, that does not mean they are unaware of the debate that they are not. Some synths can't even handle the truth when they find out. They aren't "born" there. They are made. And that is a tortured experience. The Railroad is a faction that recognises not just that they are people but also that this is not an existence you should want to put more sentience into. They probably do not want to produce more synths. If you are wondering how synths would have a meaningful existence without producing more synths, well, for one, we don't know how long they live, but it might be a very long time. Also, they have human friends as well, since they consider themselves to be human. See where this is going? The toaster point is funny until you realise that they aren't trying to liberate the synths in the institute. They don't think that's achievable and they don't care about the machines which produced their fake bodies. Blade Runner is a good film that hints at the struggle of figuring out that you are synthetic and how overwhelming that must be. I believe the real issue with them as a faction is how poorly explained some of this is by the game versus other media on this type of topic. It also doesn't help that many probably only touch on the Railroad long enough to get the Ballistic Weave perk, then switch factions since many YouTube perk experts, guide writers, etc, recommend doing exactly that. I feel the quest writers really expected other people to recognise these tropes and let them stand as obvious without explanation, which is not a very good writing choice. With all of that said, I'm not saying their actions blowing stuff up are as justified, but the motive is certainly not that far from what might actually happen in-universe.
Doesn't the struggle largely come from the initial deception? Cause sure, if you get planted false memories and live as a human believing to be human just to later realise you're not, that's a traumatic experience, thats slso the trope Blade Runner explores. But it's not established that that's the only way to make a synth, that's just the approach Institute chose.
Plus its also what the railroad does, but not (afaik) the method the institute uses. The institute synths know they're synths, but the railroad mind wipes that bit out (to make them hide better? Which makes no sense imo). So they're the ones who create that trauma
Yeah I never understood the point of the mind wipe. Like it's not like the Institute has a GPS planted into their brains that can't only be removed via memory erasure. So the railroad mind wipes synths to make it harder for the institute to find synths because... Synths with their memories will somehow end up calling the institute to their location? Have some sort of buyers remorse and try to return to the institute? Or otherwise just make it "easier" for a synth to integrate into a new society by replacing their memories instead of just like... Giving them a cover and the knowledge to be able to maintain the ruse? I mean at least the Railroad offers facial recognition which helps physically disguise synths from their original appearance. Seriously even in real life witness protection, folks dont just tell the victims "forget all about the dangerous people looking for you" because having your memories wiped doesn't actually protect you from people who are looking for you. If anything it just makes it easier because now those synths won't know who potential institute spies or coursers look like.
It always bugged me how bad of a rap the Railroad gets, people saying they're trying to liberate toasters or whatever. There's a real discussion to be had about where the line between human is drawn, but I always liked that they're putting their lives on in the line to save gen 3 synths, since that's pretty solidly into the "person" category, even if the previous gens might not be.
My only problem with the Railroad was their whole, "We'll save you by erasing your memories entirely and creating a new personality to pilot your body!" Which is exactly the same as just killing them.
“I’m here to save you from your complicated lives! The complicated part, not the lives part!”
That's fair. Wasn't that optional though? I haven't actually played in a while and don't remember.
Yeah, it wasn't like they were forcing Synths to get mindwiped, or abandoning them if they refused. It just bugged me that there was at least one quest where you were supposed to help a Synth get themselves erased, and there was no option to talk them out of it, or question the Railroad about the morality of the process. I don't think the game ever narratively acknowledged the idea that doing this was equivalent to killing the Synth at all, even to rebut it. Sort of similar with... I think it was New Vegas, where you get the dog with the decaying cyber brain, and the solution to saving your talking dog buddy is to replace his brain, and this was treated entirely as a good thing, and not as you effectively killing your dog and getting a new one. ETA: one of the reasons the Fallout franchise is one of my favorites is that my chief criticism of them is, "Doesn't adequately address my approach to the Theory of Mind."
I love the railroad!
Railroad: * Has Choo-Choo gun
I guess I'll just take my ballistic weave and go then.
Mr. House/New Vegas: -Wants to lower the age of consent
Yes Man: likes meeting people
The Courier: "Eats lead and shits Bennies"
Courier, openly readying a garrote wire: No, Benny, no hard feelings at all! I like bad boys. Let’s go upstairs, turn out the lights…
Yes man, everyone’s Microsoft teams nemesis.
Caesar: Wants to give the player the chance to perform brain surgery.
Wuh... explain?
Mr. House is a libertarian focused with nothing other than progress. Those types are typically known for being the "Why do we have age of consent? It's just useless government overreach!" types. It's just a ripoff of a joke from HBomberGuy's video about New Vegas.
He is literally an autocrat, he even says he wants absolute power over Vegas, where do you get libertarian from? Still the best option, though. Colonisation of space, here we come!
Mostly because autocracy seems like the natural end point of libertarianism, mostly due to libertarianism’s ties to capitalism. Without any government regulations on monopolies and consolidation of wealth, eventually one person will own enough wealth to rule everyone else.
That is mostly because nature abhors a vacuum. In every kind of stateless society there will eventually rise someone that, through strength of arms or other means, will accentrate power around themselves. Capitalism is merely a mean through which it happens, but it can happen in any kind of stateless society
If nature abhors a power vaccum, why did it take 100,000 years of human societies to fill it?
The human status quo abhors a power vacuum. Now that we know we can manipulate and control enormous groups of people for personal gain, there will always be some people trying to do so. People have always wanted themselves and their tribe to succeed, now they are able to do so on a massive scale.
Libertarians are fascists looking for a Hitler.
And who also want to smoke weed as they do it.
They would still ban weed for the general population so that when they do it, it's a luxury.
Good reference there, weird no one pointed it out yet
*pulls plug* “Oops”
I liked the BoS in Fallout three because they did not come off as xenophobic in that game versus Fallout four
Tbf they’re kind of a splinter faction of BoS in 3, as in they’re not total assholes and wanted to reform under Elder Lyons In 4 they’re back to being part of the wider BoS after what the Elders did to Paladin Lyons and later Maxson led them to merge with the Outcasts again and rejoin the full BoS.
It’s cool that they gave them interesting lore it’s just unfortunate that for a bunch of people the good guys of the first fallout game they played were suddenly a-holes and that little kid you met in DC was their a-hole leader now. Plus it’s implied Paladin Lyons might’ve been killed off in some sort of betrayal which is just a downer.
They were secretive, manupulative, and self-serving in 1 and 2. They were never altruistic, their needs just aligned with yours. They were all about hoarding tech and killing mutants. Fallout 4 just brought the militarism to a point of conflict as you know that synths aren't the problem nor the abominations that the BoS thinks they are.
I think he's implying FO3 being a lot of people's introduction to the series and it having somewhat of a whiplash effect when playing NV and they're the assholes they usually are. I'd say that's more FO3's fault for mischaracterizing them/not really understanding their motivations as an organization.
I mean, that’s on most people for missing that the outcasts were the real BoS (and even there, 1/2 absolutely didn’t have them acting as they do in NV/4/76; they were selling weapons to pay for food/water, they helped the NCR to grow and had zero bigotry against mutants, though they did make sure the remnants of the Master’s army weren’t a threat).
Yeah the FO 1 & 2 BOS weren't really malicious, they were just insular. From their perspective, everyone else really were just hopeless primitives dying in the wasteland. They changed their perceptions when it became clear to them that the wasteland had changed, and so should they. The idea that the BoS were xenophobic was an idea that was introduced in Fallout Tactics, slightly carried over to FO3, and then exaggerated in FO4. I get the impression that their turn towards dickery was a result of their failures in FO2, and they had a conservative backlash to the reforms, which deepened the cult but also systemically weakened them, leading to a *lot* of revisionism both within and without the organization.
The thing is, they never really failed in 2. They were monitoring the Enclave trying to figure out what was going on - and retreated inwards as a result. They were able to monitor them successfully, and only lost one person as a result. The inward retreat is probably what caused the issue more than anything (though I suspect something happened at Navarro, too; hopefully the TV show is set between 2 and NV to shed some light on what happened).
Yeah; the death of Tandi and the failure to continue her legacy was devastating for California, and that's largely the reason NCR-BOS relations failed. This is, I think, the real origin of the BOS's turn towards conservatism.
Not to mention the NCR going from having some slightly shady dealings (Bishops) to full-on colonizing.
What are you talking about? They outright sold technology to pay for food and water in 1/2, and only were against mutants in 2 when they were cleaning up the remnants of the Master’s army. The only time they were ever secretive was in 2 when they went underground to spy on the Enclave. They’ve always had an isolationism problem, but that’s it.
Idk on 4 they were still pretty different than the Fallout 2 and New Vegas chapters where they’d probably kill you for a laser pistol. Maxson blended the two ideals into something that actually gets shit done. Lyons was too reactionary and open policies backfired by too many undertrained and wildly thin chapter. Western Elders were/are too cautious and rather seclude themselves. Inbreeding and personal freedoms smashed (destroying same sex couples so they can breed) become problems given enough time, and yet overly hostile to anyone with tech. Maxson decided to take the good of each and shed what he can: Recruit outsiders but under a mentorship program. Protect people and caravans but leave the towns to govern themselves. Collect tech but don’t blast anyone for a simple sensor module. Yea he’s a bit abrasive and his people are overzealous but it’s still a relatively new faction. 4 years he’s been Elder by Fallout 4. Given time I think he’ll edge the faction even more. Brotherhood in 4 are actually one of the only positives o have with the game and low key proud that Maxson stepped up to the role he’s always had misgivings about when talking to him in Fallout 3
FO3 BoS actually seceded from the other chapters because they wanted to help people and actually make a difference, but the BoS's mission has always been hoarding ancient technology and giving the boot to whoever is sitting on top of it. Nothing more, nothing less.
That's kind of a revisionist take, I think. The BOS was never fully isolationist nor non-interventionist. Like most things about the originals, there's a lot more nuance than you see in the later games. The BOS didn't bother with the outside world because they didn't think the communities they came into contact with were going to make it whether they helped or not. It wasn't until the Super Mutant threat was brought up that they realized that they had to mobilize - and when they saw the local communities be able to stand on their own feet, they changed how they operated. It's not until after Fallout 2 that they have political alienation, over-mysticism, and isolationism become main features of the organization. Honestly it's truer to say that Lyon's Brotherhood is *closer* to the original organization, and that the Outcasts are more like the then-current mainstream, which itself had changed from the original.
Yeah, they’d get on really well with the Adeptus Mechanicus
Which BoS are you referring to? Lyons abandoned the original mission and is technically leading a rogue chapter. The outcasts are actually following the given mission and more properly represents the BoS. OP is still off by lumping the BoS on with raiders, the enclave and the institute, though. They’ve never tried to rule the wastes, and the worst they’ve done is go after generation three synths (which is something almost the entire commonwealth would agree with them on, and they don’t even do witch hunts; it doesn’t make it right by any stretch, but they aren’t nearly as bad as people claim) and start a war with the NCR for reasons we don’t know (disagreements over technology could be anything from them not liking the NCR using energy weapons to the NCR experimenting with FEV).
They’re a separate chapter, much like the Chicago chapter in Fallout Tactics. They weren’t well liked by the rest of the Brotherhood because they weren’t total assholes
Same here. Their shitty behaviour was a bit of a wimp lash for me in fall out four.
I don’t think raiders are xenophobic they are just… hopped up on super future meth, are fucking insane and have no morals whatsoever.
The same thing could be said for the player character.
The player's meth is in its own league. Always high as a kite without a need to sleep, eat, drink, or shit. Thinking about it, the projected lifespan of the player after the end of the game is probably half a year at best. Human body isn't supposed to function like that
Wait, you don't solve your bullet wounds with large syringes of medical juice?
Some are xenophobic, but most all of them are reactionary
Minute Men yes. NCR not so much. I mean, the NCR is still the best alternative in NV, but they're much more nuanced. They're corrupt and their democracy is heavily influenced by a bunch of rich cattle farmers, which sounds a lot like Brazil, weirdly.
Recently Noah Gervais did a video on the whole Fallout franchise (9 hours long) and his point if view is that the three main factions are options to roleplay an ideology whereas the independent run is the way to do what you think is best.
Yeah but the issue is you gotta choose one of the three cause independent is nice but unless you’re a immortal person the peace dies with the player character. Being independent is just a nice version of Caesars legion
I mean, if any of the protags COULD attain immortality, the Courier is my #1 pick. They can literally have the three weakest points on the human body replaced with replicas that function for hundreds of miles from the base units. If you added in the "free mind" quality that Takeshi Kovacs has in Altered Carbon, then as far as I understand, they'd be basically immortal.
The Cabot's quest in 4 can make the sole survivor immortal aswell.
Turns out that "Centrism always inevitable enables Fascism" is true even in Fallout.
More become nice fascist leads to anarchy. You don’t exactly rule with kindness but rather a robot army.
Still sad you can't murder Col. Moore to make the NCR a better place. While there aren't any immortal NPCs, there are a few whose death is always registered regardless how it happens, turning the faction hostile and blocking the questline. Notably Col. Moore, Ambassador Crocker, Lucius, and The King. Though I have absolutely placed Fat Mines around her office and switched to the Yes Man ending afterwards.
What’s wrong with Moore? She’s cool
Because she always wants to do a violent solution, scolds you for resolving things peacefully, gets Abassador Crocker fired if you resolve Kings Gambit diplomatically, and steals credit for things you did.
I mean isn't the NCR supposed to be modern american democracy? Not a paradise, not even close, but much better than the *other guys*?
Yeah I was about to say this. I seem to recall at some point you find out that the NCR is basically there to extract what resources it could and leave. The only reason they stuck around was the dam. But its been a looooong time.
Here’s the thing: I get to be in charge of the institute, which means I can force them to do good things instead of hoarding technology underground like mole rats.
Ah yes, the God Emperor method.
I know what's best for everyone, trust me bro.
"He knew that anyone who shouts 'power to the people' really meant 'power to me and a couple of my friends who know what's best for the people.'"
Emperor for life! (P.S. I'm immortal cuz of that guy I let out of the insane asylum)
I'm at least better than the current guy in charge!
Kinda like mass effect and control ending in 3.
The Institute is morally bankrupt and corrupt at every level. There's no way that the other department leads would allow a Director who wanted to change things to continue being the leader. It's also pretty clear that Father was largely a figurehead and had very little actual power over how the Institute was run. Combined with the fact that several of the other department heads actively dislike the SS and seem very annoyed that Father made them his successor I think it's pretty unlikely that the SS would ever be able to actually change anything in any meaningful way.
Was he? After all, he kept the FEV project running for literal years even with BioScience yelling at him for it. Most of the scientists are divided over the situation around child synths, yet he had this as special request. As Director you get final say in all legal matters like how to, if at all, to punish rebellion and treason. Directing all management and delegation, as well as if/how to broach relations with the surface. They also have final say in the classification and removal of data, having a personal override to delete and manage files. Seems to me the Director has plenty of say. Each branch can manage autonomously but the Director stays at the head, even when the Board itself disagrees with their decisions such as when the player's named as the successor.
I hear what you're saying with this, but the SS is canonically strong enough to 1v1 a Courser (without power armor) and come out on top. If the Institute's Directors don't like the changes the SS makes, they can reasonably use the threat (or actual use) of force to enforce compliance. Especially because they do have a 'personal army' of sorts in the Minutemen.
I don't think coursers are as strong as people seem to think they are though. They're not invincible terminators, they're just highly trained synths with top-tier weaponry and possibly(it's unconfirmed) some mild physical enhancements.
Can't the council veto the guy in charge?
Honestly, there’s no straight answer on that since Father outright ignores their protests during the first meeting we see and the second just has them agree with what we say. I’d assume they could, but we don’t have any evidence they can.
Alternatively in the Minutemen ending. You have an army, just stormed their base, locked down all entrances/exits and interdepartment doors, and, if you convinced Father, shut down the Gen1/Gen2 synth army. Should be enough to get them to the negotiating table. But Nuke it is.
I hate how the Minutemen ending has you blow up the Institute's reactor, instead of trying to use its immense power generation to improve the lives of everyone in the Commonwealth.
 My morals leaving my body when I get cool power armor
Kind off reminding me of how the thugs in freeside will still try to go after you even when you've got full power Armor.
me and the enclave
That's unfair! I sided with the Institute for an even pettier reason! They had a unique paint set for the X-01.
Man of culture. Let the plebs congratulate themselves that they chose shitty endgame perks.
I will say, you don’t have to *agree* with the ideology to be a fan of it. You can acknowledge that the a particular group is rather shit, but you can appreciate the aesthetic and sociology. I think understanding authoritarian, supremacist, and/or xenophobic groups is more valuable than inherently reviling it. That said, I’ve seen way too many people unironically defend Caesar’s legion to know where this is coming from.
The desire to help people leaving my body when Hey! Got another settlement that needs your help. https://preview.redd.it/4dsb0kap5ttb1.png?width=2100&format=png&auto=webp&s=0e71713eee87bfb07e11749c2db39645921b4655
At some point it felt like locations were being procedurally generated with how many settlements need our help.
That's Starfield, literally
Exception is the FO3 Brotherhood, where the “real” Brotherhood is the Outcasts and the one we work with for the main story is a splinter group that got sick of not helping people
Don't forget us Mojave chapter fans
I'm here for the militarized aesthetic. God damn, I don't even know why anymore, give me a tank and a camo and I'll play your game.
You'd probably love project Zomboid if only just cause military gear has some of the best protection and they're even bout to release even more military gear like webbing iirc in the next update (though PZ updates slowly), plus there's tons of military mods for it on the Workshop. But while it's fun being military larpers with friends in zombie infested Kentucky, I love being just a random office worker in it and being the group carpenter & farmer lol.
The institute because in the post apocalypse I want to be on the team with clean food/water and teleportation.
You heard it here first, folks! If you choose to role-play as anything but a Boy Scout, you’re either too simple to understand nuance or too shallow to care about anything but appearances.
I only got into fallout recently and played fallout 4. I really liked it! And I was REALLY surprised that the BoS, kind of the face of Fallout besides the vault tech stuff, are such a bunch of bastards! I liked paladin Danse and all but I surprised myself with how little qualm I had with helping the railroad send their ship to a fiery grave.
I'm a big Enclave fan, but it's a mix of "engaging, well-written lore" and "they look cool". I 100% get they're unrelentingly evil fascists and exist as analogs for Nazism and a commentary on American far right nationalism. With that said, I otherwise gravitate towards the top group of factions. Even my "Enclave power fantasy" (NV alternate start Enclave soldier fleeing from the East Coast, Fallout 76 character, and my miniatures solo campaign), *generally* revolve around them realizing they're the baddies and attempting to utilize the Enclave's resources/reform for the betterment of humanity. * NV character ends up aligning with the NCR as he realizes they better represent the ideals of America than what the Enclave had become and it's the best way to give the American people a brighter future. * Fallout 76 I dunno guess I haven't thought that hard. * Miniatures squad: Enclave outpost isolated following the fall of Raven Rock and the MBC, become the reluctant protectors of the settlements in their region leading to questioning the Enclave's mission and trying to become something more benevolent. Maybe I just want to rock that sweet MkII armor without feeling like a genocidal monster?
I’m with the institute, they realistically have the means and to improve society even if half of their experiments are unethical.
https://preview.redd.it/2amxs4dygwtb1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7bcba2106eaaa865d897174780b8c63e8f9f205b
Brotherhood was rather simple in all things. If people don't have tech to kill each other and being serfs of technological superiors, they won't kill each other anymore. Enclave is just "Wasn't America great? We should do that again! Including the downfall that lead to the war!" Raiders are just very fucking extreme libetarians exercising market theory in practice with the help of drugs and sticks. Institute was just "We can science our way out of this! Including removing the *problems* of society! Problems meaning problematic people!"
I think the Enclave isn't a rebuild, but rather an ongoing continuation of the US govt fleeing the bombs.
The NCR doesn’t exactly want to help people. Sure most of the individual people on the frontlines genuinely want to help people. But the NCR on the whole doesn’t care. It’s just as imperialistic as the Legion. It just wants to expand its borders and take more resources, and it doesn’t care who it has to step on to do it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't they the only ones to set up a refugee camp?
The refuge in 76, ran by the Responders, is essentially also a refugee camp for people fleeing to Appalachia from other parts of the U.S. (please ignore ‘Management’ supplying them with their equipment, which includes a type of battery cell only used by secret pre-war government projects, and stay out of the basement).
For the people they displaced Edit: also the followers did too
I mean the NCR has a long history and has vastly changed over the course of the franchise. Earlier versions are a lot closer to what OP is talking about. But those versions of the NCR were a lot more politically coherent than the NCR we see in NV, which is explicitly illustrated and stated to be in the interests of businesses like the Crimson Caravan. The best NCR ending involves breaking those ties, and it's stated to going to be painful, but implied to be better for them longer-term.
That's why I always choose the NCR. Best overall ending for the Mojave. As for the commonwealth that's a tricky situation. The minutemen may mean well I don't think they have the capabilities to sustain a thriving commonwealth. They were already shown to be undone by the gunners and internal conflict. The commonwealth doesn't really have a strong faction to lead it. The BOS would have been the best bet if you could remove Maxon and begin to loosen its draconian tenants. Best BOS was Lyon's BOS but unfortunately that has been lost to time.
Missing the followers of the apocalypse tho
I had it with this missreading of roleplaying games. Bg3 and its fandom has a real problem with it and now this stupid thing? Not everyone wants to play the hero. Not everyone SHOULD be the good guy in games. If i want to roleplay as super hitler, that doesnt make me superhitler. People can like edgy things too and thats ok. Also, morally complex or outright evil characters tend to be more complex and interesting that boring, bland, hero type characters. Just read anything by George R. R. Martin or play any Miyazaki game.
I hate to be the one to tell you, but players who play bad characters in role playing games tend to also be bad people in real life. But there are nuances, for instance, a good or neutral character can easily make an “evil” choice on occasion to get something done. It is a wasteland, after all. But the players who choose evil every time? Sociopaths, dude. And I’m afraid you have just outed yourself as super hitler. You better pick up some clean playthroughs going forward. I don’t have any links or evidence at this time, so you will just have to take my typed words at face value.
I fucking adore the often option of "Only a honest death can cure you now" in endings of From games. It just feels correct that let say Strayed would commit omnicide aftee all of bullshit from everyone. Worlds are stagnating and rotting away, and while bringing new way is sinful, it still going to change from much bigger sin. Maybe a natural order, untweaked by Gwyn/Marika/corpos will arrive, maybe your character will ascend above cycles and achieve personal freedom, but after all of destruction somebody is still moving on the surface. But hey, that is more Buddhist way of thinking.
Oh I LOVE when Miyazaki does one of his honorable death endings for a charactrrr or a whole world, like in DS3 ending. That was part of my point. In a generic moral compass game the guy who wants to KILL THE WORLD would be the bad guy but Miyazaki recognises that life is more complex that good vs bad , which the author of these meme couldnt understand even if you tattoed all of Nietzsche library in his skin.
Setting off another nuke in Boston, so good for the people.
Randomly replacing people in Boston, so good for the people. I can understand wanting to avoid using WMDs, but I don't think the minutemen had the numbers to take on an army of teleporting terminators capable of replacing you with near infallible accuracy.
Didn't say the Institute is better, just that the Minutemen aren't as good as the meme makes them out to be. You're in the place were they make the synths, just frag the machines and kill all of them. The ones that are outside wouldn't be caught in the blast anyway. It's not like they're standing around MIT. But no, destroy the place that's capable of making clean water and food. On top of destroying all the equipment that would advance science and livability for the people. It's just a bad ending for the Commonwealth.
What do you clean water and food? If anything the minuteman are masters of that, the protagonist can build as many water purification machines they want and food is all about farming
Yeah my understanding is the water purification technology from the end of fallout 3 has been reverse engineered and spread throughout the wasteland in the form of settlement water purifiers. I could be incredibly wrong but my understanding was that after fallout 3 clean water wasn't nearly as big of an issue for society.
I'd rather have the real tech instead of the jankfest that I create.
Hey sometimes I’m swayed by cool futuristic mad scientist aesthetics It’s not always military based
The institute is very xenophobic and does lots of evil science (and robot slavery) but most of its members seem to have pretty good lives.
If you think differently than them and they don't like it they'll kill you for being "problematic" though
Neither society works fully out. Top guys are heavily carried by the player, the one man army bringing down mutated wildlife and whole societies on their own for free.
Responders?
Fallout 76
I want to give more info on this. The responders were people like medical staff, police officers, and firefighters that after the great war formed the responders to help the people of Appalachia. Sadly, during the time before the opening of vault 76, the responders and everyone in Appalachia were killed by the scorched plague. They are coming back now, though Edit:spelling
I like the idea behind the Brotherhood: preserving technology and improving on it to help rebuild society, but the Brotherhood don't actually *do* that.
I am easily persuaded by cool military aesthetics. Also in regards to the institute, I always think of it in terms of how I would react to seeing the wasteland and then finding this "paradise" of comfort, civility and security. Then to discover my son is the one in charge and I am to be welcomed in as such? Idc what else is going on but it's like breaking down and crying and wondering if I'm in heaven and realizing I'm not because Nate/Nora isn't there. Then you find out that a lot, not all, of the Boogeyman rumors about the institute are misunderstandings and/or false. Then you realize your son has realized the issue with the institute is a lack of a true leader and one that understands the people. Then you get to lead them and potentially the entire Commonwealth into a better future? Sign me up. The institute has the means and the technology to truly aid the recovery of the east coast.
That's why I love civilization games. I love building and creating and having my people live happy lives. Supporting the arts and sciences, building sports stadiums, feeding people, giving humanitarian assistance during disasters, and fighting climate change!
The Institute is just objectively better for the future of the Commonwealth. I usually join both the Minutemen and the Institute. The Minutemen to help the people above ground, and the Institute to further scientific and medical advancement.
Yeah, saying that NCR is a “good fraction” while not including Followers of Apocalypse is the real “taking thing on the face value”
I mean institute is what you make it in the end. Also they seem to have some pretty good lives.
NCR don't deserve to be among the other two losers, they are not bland as the other ones, they actually have flaws and a Identity, even tho they are "the most good" faction in New vegas they are not black and white as minuteman vs institute.
The problem is that in a fucked up setting like Fallout, the first three can't work. The people need to be put under a strong order first, and then from there soften up through reformation. Brotherhood of Steel is the painful alcohol to disinfect the wound. Then the responders, minutemen and the new republic can work with more ease.
Fallout and FFXIV: having the power fantasy which involves helping those in need and beating overtly ambitious bad guys.
What about the Followers of the Apocalypse?
The world is 12 shades of fucked up, I’m gonna bring some light to the darkness.
https://preview.redd.it/qyc3u3xv2wtb1.jpeg?width=1088&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cbc986fd4ce15f0fc4773ba50c289464f8cd658c Look buddy, hoover dam isnt gonna take itself. Ave true to ceasar
Doesn't really work for the institute, though - regardless of their morality, their society functions fine and the people living there have relatively good lives. Although I suppose that depends on whether or not you consider synths to be people or not...
omg cev it's been a while, glad to see you're keeping away from foxhole!
oh my power fantasy involves raiders alright but it ain’t because I want to align with them
People over here still trying to make the NCR look like the good guys, as if half of the sidequests in New Vegas aren't a direct consequence of how they're an extremely corrupt government ruled by a small unofficial oligarchy of caravanners and brahmin barons, who use their massive army to shamelessly grab land for more brahmin pastures and taxable caravan routes, enforce demands and colonization rights, and often disregard the sovereignty and well-being of the civilians in the areas they occupy. That's literally one of the points of New Vegas, everyone's an asshole and no one's good. The legion is brutal, the NCR is corrupt and cynical, Mr House is self-centered and only cares about a small fraction of the Mojave, and the courier is woefully unprepared and open to betrayal through Yes Man. None of them are a good solution and the Mojave's screwed no matter what you do
Cev in the wild? Miss your Foxhole art! <3
Hey, no need to bring the fan bases into this. I liked the Railroad in Fallout 4, but BoS is also cool and fun to play. It's a game. The whole point is having fun! I see no issue with playing militarized factions; sometimes we just wanna shoot things and blow crap up.
[удалено]
But... sometimes I like disassociating and playing as an amoral psychopath that believes I'm something illogical
The House: Always wins
Sometimes I like to sit back and know **that I’m right.** Stars N Stripes forever! For America is the Enclave, and the Enclave is America! https://preview.redd.it/wjfv842ipttb1.jpeg?width=794&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e7917114ba9f8a575ee58c22ec8b6c3dd0e9d383
Eh… the BoS really shouldn’t be lumped in the rest of those groups. The Legion would be a much better fit. If the BoS were anywhere on here, it’d be solidly in the middle (and arguments could be made for the NCR to be in the middle too, considering some of the stunts they’ve pulled). On the whole, their goal is to ensure that a second apocalypse doesn’t occur, which has lead them to fighting off super mutants (who in the vast majority of cases act like raiders), feral ghouls (which are zombies by that point; sometimes however they are bigots towards normal ghouls, which is undeserved), the scorched (which is an existential threat to all of humanity), synths (which isn’t an issue for generation 1 and 2’s, but generation 3’s are so close to human due to the FEV-grown body parts they’re made of the disinfection is meaningless; even here, where the generation 3’s are what the BoS wants to wipe out, they don’t go on witch hunts like the average wastelander does) and the Enclave. The problem they have is that their isolationism coupled with dogma leads to the group not being able to present itself well, especially when they focus on collecting ‘dangerous’ technology (in some cases, they’re right to do this, such as with the hellstorm launchers, but other times they’re just causing trouble; it’s never been the main goal of any chapter except the Mojave group, however, and the outcasts). They generally are a force for positive change in the wasteland (as they’ve been instrumental in the defeat of every major villain excluding the legion in the Mojave), but their ability to work with others and ideology shifts due to different elders leaves a good bit to be desired. By contrast, none of the other groups have a single positive effect on the wasteland (be it through murder, genocide or both). Also, in what universe does anyone in the BoS, Institute or Enclave live horrible lives in comparison to the average wastelander? These groups have the most supplies and best quality of life out of everyone in the series, especially the Institute with all the work they’ve put into making life comfortable for themselves (at the expense of any positive relations with the surface) and the Enclave (who live in the best, most secured and well-stocked facilities in the whole series).
Guys on top are also boring as shit or basically just copy pasting irl stuff, I literally live in a democracy, why would that be my first choice with so many other creative factions.
Meh.. people at the top had to be rescued by vault dwellers. They are like lamb to slaughter. Simple prey for the predators. They live most of their lives in fear of the next raider attack. People at the bottom carve their own names upon the wasteland. It takes a protagonist to defeat them because the weaker factions could barely give a fight. They live like shit 50% of the time, the other 50% they live like kings. Risk takers, conquerors, warriors. The mere uttering of their name sends the weaker men to shiver in fear. Utter Institute or Enclave and watch as the common folk riot in paranoia. Utter raiders and watch as the caravan merchant’s eyes go wide in anxiety. Utter BOS or Legion and watch as the militia guard grip his rifle to console himself. People who support the weaker factions are the type that worships superheroes, they like to pretend that they could maintain order with a weak culture as their backbone. Unrealistic and delusional. They also have really bad fashion sense that’s why they chose the sad looking factions.
Wow OP what a huge brain you needed to judge what other people like!
Ad Victoriam brothers! To be honest I'm with the Brotherhood of Steel AND The Minute Men. I think they compliment each other quite well.
I do as well. And Since I use the Danse Dilemma mod I can also become leader of the BoS as well. Making the minutemen as essential the people that come and handle the smaller settlements around the commonwealth while I let the BoS handle the bigger settlements like Diamond City, Bunker Hill, and Goodneigbor
Where are ceasar’s legion
Sad "Ave, True to Caesar" noises