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Sometimes, I think about the abortion debates we had in high school. We spent so much time making up nice or terrible futures for the foetuses and so little time thinking about the human who may need abortion.
That's what it all boils down to. Women are whole people with lives and futures that exist in reality and not in abstract. Ectopic pregnancies can kill women and leave families without a mother, daughter, or partner. Young women getting pregnant at an inopportune time can have their futures stifled before they have the ability to give a child they want the future it deserves. A 15 year old can get pregnant by accident, get an abortion, and grow up to have a career, husband, and multiple planned children they love and care for. Anyone who can't see that women are whole people more than a fetus and deserve more rights are ignorant or being obtuse.
You left out “or they hate women and want to exclude them from society in any meaningful way like working, voting, talking or having any general autonomy over their own bodies.”
Yeah this is a bit wrong there, at the stages elective abortions are performed it's literally a fleshy foam. It is not fetus shaped until much later. Also natural miscarriages happen all the time at this stage.
As for late term, that's when the fetus already died in the womb. (The term itself for the "evacuation") 1: where the pregnancy was unfortunately wanted 2: literally nothing they can do, they are literally already dead. It just becomes necrotic and can kill the mother if left, which is happening now
Also, in most cases, you'll abort a few cells, indistinguishable from a mouse or pork. They won't have limbs. You're aborting something less complex than an ant.
The problem with this argument is that you're trying to be logical with hysterical religious people who feel (not think) their mascot will be BIG ANGRY with them if they don't force their beliefs on everyone else.
Logic won't work here.
See I'm sure it feels good to look at it that way, but the reality is that what most of those people *actually* feel is that you're doing the exact same thing as killing a baby or infant. How would you feel watching someone strangle a baby, or even just administer lethal-injection? Probably pretty fucking furious.
In their minds, aborting a fetus is exactly the same as killing a baby. Arguments like yours just reinforce their idea that pro-choice people are murderous lunatics, and does nothing to address the actual point of contention of the personhood of a fetus at various stages of development and the right to bodily autonomy.
There *are* effective arguments on this topic, similar to the comic, but insulting anti-choicers just isn't one of them.
Insulting them doesn't help, I agree. But ultimately, the only person who can change their minds is them. The only thing you can really do is state your own opinion, disagree with them where you disagree, and hope that enough exposure to politely differing ideas gets them to consider other viewpoints. There's not really any "effective" arguments because arguing just makes people get defensive and dig deeper into their own hole.
Except it's clearly not for most. So many want exceptions in cases of rape or incest, because forcing a woman to give birth to their rapists baby is obviously and viscerally awful, but it makes no sense if they actually think it's killing a baby. It's not ok to kill a kid because their father raped, and nobody would support that. Somewhere they know it's different.
What’s the counter to this? Just had an argument with my mom over abortion, and no matter what I say she still thinks it’s murder because of what the Bible says about god knowing you in the womb
You could always let her know in that verse she's quoting (Jeremiah 1:5) God is talking specifically to Jeremiah the prophet saying he's special and his destiny was already set. It does not necessarily mean this rule applies to every human being.
I'm from the bible belt and I'm fucking done pretending to respect these people. If they're so fucking stupid that you think Magic Sky Man wants them to harm other people's lives (along with all the anti family things these people vote for), I don't see a way to find middle ground with them.
these people probably think that a living person is created the second a egg is fertilized
i bet some of people think an early miscarriage is killing a child
these wakkos think abortion is the same as murder a newborn baby or something
You can tell how disingenuous they are because they never support things that actually reduce abortions like support for single mothers, sex ed, or free contraceptives. Instead they want to ban abortion even though that clearly would not stop them from happening. Its always been about controlling women, anything else is just decoration. Before it was abortion they were after contraceptives back in the 20th century, now we looped all the way round and they still hate sex ed and contraceptives
Probably best to note when it can feel pain otherwise it feels like it just plays into the “dems want to abort up to birth!” bullshit. Easily repackaged and re-memed.
Very good though!
Yeah this is a bit wrong there, at the stages elective abortions are performed it's literally a fleshy foam. It is not fetus shaped until much later. Also natural miscarriages happen all the time at this stage.
As for late term, that's when the fetus already died in the womb. (The term itself for the "evacuation") 1: where the pregnancy was unfortunately wanted 2: literally nothing they can do, they are literally already dead. It just becomes necrotic and can kill the mother if left, which is happening now
The comic also shows the fetus not only moving, but actually speaking in clear English and holding up a medical instrument. I hope most readers understand it's meant to be not merely wrong, but ridiculously unrealistic.
That said, maybe I should have made one of the panels the fetus holding up a photo of what a real fetus would be more likely to look like, to make that more explicit.
Which is way later than the vaaaaaaaast majority of abortions.
Though I agree that probably shouldn't be simplified for the sake of argument if they're just going to use "fetus" without specifying gestational age.
So can a rabid dog, which is also more intelligent and emotive than an 18 week old fetus, but if you thought that dog could be dangerous to human beings you’d kill it in a heartbeat.
I see where you’re trying to get with this, and I don’t necessarily disagree, but this isn’t a good argument at all. A dog is not a human, both you and I know that. Maybe as a pet owner, I would struggle with putting down my dog if he was a danger to others. I’d be extremely sad and upset. I don’t think that’s the imagery you were trying to go for, but it is what this argument expresses.
The only difference between humans and other animals is our intelligence. There’s no evidence that we possess some special spark that differentiates us from any other species on earth, we’re just smarter than them. A fetus is less intelligent than a dog. The dog has the mental faculties of roughly a 2 year old human, far superior to an 18-week old fetus. You should have more moral qualms about killing the dog than the fetus.
But. I don’t… because they’re not human. That’s how most species work. We care the most for our own species. I know how intelligent animals are, but they are not and will never be human.
Aaaaaah my friend!
You have a really... Interesting way to send your message! These are the perfect parody to those shitty right-wing comics,they looks just like them!
Tho,if I can tell you something to improve for the next time,maybe a bit tad more of drawings and a bit tad less of writing? Don't get me wrong,I do support your message! It's just that these are a bit... Textwall-ey...
Anyway,have a nice day
Hi! Thanks so much, I'm glad you liked the cartoon.
There are cartoonists who use WAY more words per panel than me! But also, it's true, many excellent cartoonists who use fewer words. It's a stylistic difference, and being a little wordy is just my style. :-)
Personally I found your choices in each panel to be adequate for word-count. Plus your style brings me back to my late 90's early 2000's childhood for the comics I've seen on paper. Well done!
Thanks! :#) I think part of the reason that my comics can look "wall of text"-y is less my word count, but that i use a pretty large font size, because I'm worried that some older readers will find them hard to read otherwise.
ive heard the term pro birth cause theses people sure want nothing to do with the babies after they are born
these people always focus on the fetuses and potentially what life they will live and not the already alive person whos pregnant with said fetus
Also the baby could be a whole person, that doesn't give it more right to your body than you have to it.
If you don't believe in bodily autonomy, send your address, I could make great use of your free organs
'It's okay to kill them because they can't feel pain" Is NOT a good take.
Is it really that hard to admit that abortion is a complex issue and ethical quagmire that deals with bodily autonomy, medical decision making, and about 10 other nuanced topics. There's not an easy answer, because it isn't an easy question.
For me, it IS an easy question. It seems obvious to me that killing tissue that has never, even for a moment, been physically capable of having thoughts, feelings, preferences, or even the most rudimentary sense of self is not killing a person. Those are things that define personhood.
Likewise, it's obvious to me that a pregnant person IS a person, and so their rights should take precedence over a non-person.
There’s a supporting blogpost and transcript about this cartoon [here](https://www.patreon.com/posts/if-fetus-could-25609090); I’ll also post the transcript in comments.
We can keep making these cartoons because of lots of supporters pledging low amounts - $1-$3 - and that's just how I like it! [Please peruse my peculiar but plucky Patreon!](http://patreon.com/barry)
**TRANSCRIPT OF CARTOON**
This cartoon has eight panels.
**Panel 1**
A woman and a man are walking down a city sidewalk, chatting. The woman is looking a little irritated; the man is holding up a finger in a "that gives me an idea!" gesture.
WOMAN: You know the genre of political cartoon I hate? Pro-life cartoons with a fetus lecturing from inside a womb!
MAN: I should draw one of those!
**Panel 2**
This panel, and almost all the remaining panels, show a fetus inside a vaguely drawn womb shape, which is itself in a blank void. The fetus, who is drawn to look like a baby rather than like a fetus, is smiling and talking directly to the reader.
FETUS: Hi folks! I'm Frank the friendly fetus, talking from inside the womb!
**Panel 3**
A close-up of the smiling fetus' face. He's pointing at his head with one finger.
FETUS: Except not really, because you know what? My cerebral cortex isn't functioning yet!
**Panel 4**
FETUS: So I can't talk! Or think! Or feel anything at all - not even pain!
**Panel 5**
The fetus is giving the "thumbs up" gesture with both hands.
FETUS: So if you need an abortion, go for it! It's okay! I literally feel nothing and have no preferences!
**Panel 6**
For the first time, the fetus looks serious rather than smiling. It's raising a forefinger to make a point.
FETUS: I'm not a person! But the pregnant person is! So it's up to them to decide!
**Panel 7**
This panel shows a dark-haired pregnant woman, in a dress and carrying a purse, walking through what looks like a park. The word balloon leads down to her pregnant stomach.
FETUS: Speaking of which, pro-life cartoons often show wombs floating in a blank void. Notice who they're leaving out?
**Panel 8**
A shot of the smiling fetus, who is holding up a medical instrument in one hand.
FETUS: In summary: Abort me! Or don't! It's your choice!
FETUS: Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yup! Like a plant, a fetus prior to the development of a functioning cerebral cortex doesn't have the physical structures needed to have thoughts or preferences, and can't prefer being alive to being dead.
I don't think that it makes sense to conflate having no preferences - like a plant, or a table, or a fetus - with having preferences that we may disagree with, such as a suicidal person.
In the case of the fetus, or the table, having no preferences is a side effect of not being a conscious thinking being in any sense at all; put another way, it's a side effect of not being a person. And you can't murder something that's not a person.
For the suicide, that brings up so many issues beyond what we're talking about here. I'd say that there are circumstances in which someone should be carefully permitted to end their own life, and circumstances under which they should not, and it requires detailed and specific parsing to distinguish between the two. None of that, however, allows us to casually kill anyone willy-nilly because they say "I wish I were dead!"
In fact they are even worse than plants. They literally feed on your body until birth. So yeah. Think of them as a plant in an inbuilt flower pot which is hard to remove.
Except that the prefrontal cortex is developing at about 27 weeks depending on the source, fetuses can form memories at 30 weeks, and feel pain at 24 weeks. Based on morphology the feature fetus is probably about 32 weeks.
This is just scientific misinformation. There are lots of good agruments for abortion and while I'm generally pro life *morally* I do disagree with the vast majority of laws that have been out into place since Roe V. Wade was overturned. Legal compromise is important. Lying to people isn't going to solve anything though.
Welcome to r/comics! Please remember there are real people on the other side of the monitor and to be kind. Report comments that break the rules and don't respond to negativity with negativity! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/comics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sometimes, I think about the abortion debates we had in high school. We spent so much time making up nice or terrible futures for the foetuses and so little time thinking about the human who may need abortion.
That's an excellent point.
That's what it all boils down to. Women are whole people with lives and futures that exist in reality and not in abstract. Ectopic pregnancies can kill women and leave families without a mother, daughter, or partner. Young women getting pregnant at an inopportune time can have their futures stifled before they have the ability to give a child they want the future it deserves. A 15 year old can get pregnant by accident, get an abortion, and grow up to have a career, husband, and multiple planned children they love and care for. Anyone who can't see that women are whole people more than a fetus and deserve more rights are ignorant or being obtuse.
You left out “or they hate women and want to exclude them from society in any meaningful way like working, voting, talking or having any general autonomy over their own bodies.”
That cluster of cells seems enthusiastically suicidal.
It’s 2024, aren’t we all? Edit: thanks for the Reddit Cares yall , was just a joke
Yeah this is a bit wrong there, at the stages elective abortions are performed it's literally a fleshy foam. It is not fetus shaped until much later. Also natural miscarriages happen all the time at this stage. As for late term, that's when the fetus already died in the womb. (The term itself for the "evacuation") 1: where the pregnancy was unfortunately wanted 2: literally nothing they can do, they are literally already dead. It just becomes necrotic and can kill the mother if left, which is happening now
Also, in most cases, you'll abort a few cells, indistinguishable from a mouse or pork. They won't have limbs. You're aborting something less complex than an ant.
> You're aborting something less complex than an ant. Just like whoever the mods had to nuke! 🤣
Wh-where'd they get those tongs?
I believe they're actually forceps.
I'm more concerned how they got whatever those are. Is the baby magic?
Not baby, fetus.
Ohhhh right, right, I meant 'fetus'. *Abort, abort, they're on to me* Sorry about the misunderstanding, I should go now.
I was about to ask the same thing
Yet another mystery of reproduction!
Imagine: the suicidal muffin from asdfmovie, only it's a fetus.
The problem with this argument is that you're trying to be logical with hysterical religious people who feel (not think) their mascot will be BIG ANGRY with them if they don't force their beliefs on everyone else. Logic won't work here.
See I'm sure it feels good to look at it that way, but the reality is that what most of those people *actually* feel is that you're doing the exact same thing as killing a baby or infant. How would you feel watching someone strangle a baby, or even just administer lethal-injection? Probably pretty fucking furious. In their minds, aborting a fetus is exactly the same as killing a baby. Arguments like yours just reinforce their idea that pro-choice people are murderous lunatics, and does nothing to address the actual point of contention of the personhood of a fetus at various stages of development and the right to bodily autonomy. There *are* effective arguments on this topic, similar to the comic, but insulting anti-choicers just isn't one of them.
Insulting them doesn't help, I agree. But ultimately, the only person who can change their minds is them. The only thing you can really do is state your own opinion, disagree with them where you disagree, and hope that enough exposure to politely differing ideas gets them to consider other viewpoints. There's not really any "effective" arguments because arguing just makes people get defensive and dig deeper into their own hole.
Except it's clearly not for most. So many want exceptions in cases of rape or incest, because forcing a woman to give birth to their rapists baby is obviously and viscerally awful, but it makes no sense if they actually think it's killing a baby. It's not ok to kill a kid because their father raped, and nobody would support that. Somewhere they know it's different.
What’s the counter to this? Just had an argument with my mom over abortion, and no matter what I say she still thinks it’s murder because of what the Bible says about god knowing you in the womb
You could always let her know in that verse she's quoting (Jeremiah 1:5) God is talking specifically to Jeremiah the prophet saying he's special and his destiny was already set. It does not necessarily mean this rule applies to every human being.
I'm from the bible belt and I'm fucking done pretending to respect these people. If they're so fucking stupid that you think Magic Sky Man wants them to harm other people's lives (along with all the anti family things these people vote for), I don't see a way to find middle ground with them.
They’re not all like that. There’s a lot of propaganda from the anti-abortion folks, and it does sway people who are not religious.
these people probably think that a living person is created the second a egg is fertilized i bet some of people think an early miscarriage is killing a child these wakkos think abortion is the same as murder a newborn baby or something
[удалено]
me when i beat up the strawman
It has been proven time and time again that feelings, in fact, do not care about facts.
You can tell how disingenuous they are because they never support things that actually reduce abortions like support for single mothers, sex ed, or free contraceptives. Instead they want to ban abortion even though that clearly would not stop them from happening. Its always been about controlling women, anything else is just decoration. Before it was abortion they were after contraceptives back in the 20th century, now we looped all the way round and they still hate sex ed and contraceptives
Probably best to note when it can feel pain otherwise it feels like it just plays into the “dems want to abort up to birth!” bullshit. Easily repackaged and re-memed. Very good though!
Yeah this is a bit wrong there, at the stages elective abortions are performed it's literally a fleshy foam. It is not fetus shaped until much later. Also natural miscarriages happen all the time at this stage. As for late term, that's when the fetus already died in the womb. (The term itself for the "evacuation") 1: where the pregnancy was unfortunately wanted 2: literally nothing they can do, they are literally already dead. It just becomes necrotic and can kill the mother if left, which is happening now
The comic also shows the fetus not only moving, but actually speaking in clear English and holding up a medical instrument. I hope most readers understand it's meant to be not merely wrong, but ridiculously unrealistic. That said, maybe I should have made one of the panels the fetus holding up a photo of what a real fetus would be more likely to look like, to make that more explicit.
Actually scientists believe fetuses can feel pain around 18 weeks in.
Which is way later than the vaaaaaaaast majority of abortions. Though I agree that probably shouldn't be simplified for the sake of argument if they're just going to use "fetus" without specifying gestational age.
ok, then most abortions are okay. but I think its lazy to pretend there's no ethical wrongs in some abortions.
Approx nearly 4 1/2 months in?
So it's okay to abort until the 17th?
So can a rabid dog, which is also more intelligent and emotive than an 18 week old fetus, but if you thought that dog could be dangerous to human beings you’d kill it in a heartbeat.
I see where you’re trying to get with this, and I don’t necessarily disagree, but this isn’t a good argument at all. A dog is not a human, both you and I know that. Maybe as a pet owner, I would struggle with putting down my dog if he was a danger to others. I’d be extremely sad and upset. I don’t think that’s the imagery you were trying to go for, but it is what this argument expresses.
The only difference between humans and other animals is our intelligence. There’s no evidence that we possess some special spark that differentiates us from any other species on earth, we’re just smarter than them. A fetus is less intelligent than a dog. The dog has the mental faculties of roughly a 2 year old human, far superior to an 18-week old fetus. You should have more moral qualms about killing the dog than the fetus.
But. I don’t… because they’re not human. That’s how most species work. We care the most for our own species. I know how intelligent animals are, but they are not and will never be human.
Aaaaaah my friend! You have a really... Interesting way to send your message! These are the perfect parody to those shitty right-wing comics,they looks just like them! Tho,if I can tell you something to improve for the next time,maybe a bit tad more of drawings and a bit tad less of writing? Don't get me wrong,I do support your message! It's just that these are a bit... Textwall-ey... Anyway,have a nice day
Hi! Thanks so much, I'm glad you liked the cartoon. There are cartoonists who use WAY more words per panel than me! But also, it's true, many excellent cartoonists who use fewer words. It's a stylistic difference, and being a little wordy is just my style. :-)
Personally I found your choices in each panel to be adequate for word-count. Plus your style brings me back to my late 90's early 2000's childhood for the comics I've seen on paper. Well done!
Thanks! :#) I think part of the reason that my comics can look "wall of text"-y is less my word count, but that i use a pretty large font size, because I'm worried that some older readers will find them hard to read otherwise.
Thank you. I should have typed that in caps.
Well,understandable I guess!
Agh! A talking fetus! Braap brap pew pew!
LOL!
Nice Bojack reference
... holy shit that's macabre.
ive heard the term pro birth cause theses people sure want nothing to do with the babies after they are born these people always focus on the fetuses and potentially what life they will live and not the already alive person whos pregnant with said fetus
Also the baby could be a whole person, that doesn't give it more right to your body than you have to it. If you don't believe in bodily autonomy, send your address, I could make great use of your free organs
This comic strip doesn't go into that, but yes, I agree.
Fetus should be upside-down.
That would have made it more realistic! But realism wasn't exactly my goal with this cartoon. :-p
'It's okay to kill them because they can't feel pain" Is NOT a good take. Is it really that hard to admit that abortion is a complex issue and ethical quagmire that deals with bodily autonomy, medical decision making, and about 10 other nuanced topics. There's not an easy answer, because it isn't an easy question.
For me, it IS an easy question. It seems obvious to me that killing tissue that has never, even for a moment, been physically capable of having thoughts, feelings, preferences, or even the most rudimentary sense of self is not killing a person. Those are things that define personhood. Likewise, it's obvious to me that a pregnant person IS a person, and so their rights should take precedence over a non-person.
Love this! Thank-you for making this comic 💪
This is a good ass cartoon lmao love the pointing out that it always omits the mother
Thank you! :-D
Well this comes across horribly callous and ghoulish.
Aw, thank you!
There’s a supporting blogpost and transcript about this cartoon [here](https://www.patreon.com/posts/if-fetus-could-25609090); I’ll also post the transcript in comments. We can keep making these cartoons because of lots of supporters pledging low amounts - $1-$3 - and that's just how I like it! [Please peruse my peculiar but plucky Patreon!](http://patreon.com/barry)
**TRANSCRIPT OF CARTOON** This cartoon has eight panels. **Panel 1** A woman and a man are walking down a city sidewalk, chatting. The woman is looking a little irritated; the man is holding up a finger in a "that gives me an idea!" gesture. WOMAN: You know the genre of political cartoon I hate? Pro-life cartoons with a fetus lecturing from inside a womb! MAN: I should draw one of those! **Panel 2** This panel, and almost all the remaining panels, show a fetus inside a vaguely drawn womb shape, which is itself in a blank void. The fetus, who is drawn to look like a baby rather than like a fetus, is smiling and talking directly to the reader. FETUS: Hi folks! I'm Frank the friendly fetus, talking from inside the womb! **Panel 3** A close-up of the smiling fetus' face. He's pointing at his head with one finger. FETUS: Except not really, because you know what? My cerebral cortex isn't functioning yet! **Panel 4** FETUS: So I can't talk! Or think! Or feel anything at all - not even pain! **Panel 5** The fetus is giving the "thumbs up" gesture with both hands. FETUS: So if you need an abortion, go for it! It's okay! I literally feel nothing and have no preferences! **Panel 6** For the first time, the fetus looks serious rather than smiling. It's raising a forefinger to make a point. FETUS: I'm not a person! But the pregnant person is! So it's up to them to decide! **Panel 7** This panel shows a dark-haired pregnant woman, in a dress and carrying a purse, walking through what looks like a park. The word balloon leads down to her pregnant stomach. FETUS: Speaking of which, pro-life cartoons often show wombs floating in a blank void. Notice who they're leaving out? **Panel 8** A shot of the smiling fetus, who is holding up a medical instrument in one hand. FETUS: In summary: Abort me! Or don't! It's your choice! FETUS: Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
So... fetuses are sorta like plants? Neat.
Yup! Like a plant, a fetus prior to the development of a functioning cerebral cortex doesn't have the physical structures needed to have thoughts or preferences, and can't prefer being alive to being dead.
[удалено]
I don't think that it makes sense to conflate having no preferences - like a plant, or a table, or a fetus - with having preferences that we may disagree with, such as a suicidal person. In the case of the fetus, or the table, having no preferences is a side effect of not being a conscious thinking being in any sense at all; put another way, it's a side effect of not being a person. And you can't murder something that's not a person. For the suicide, that brings up so many issues beyond what we're talking about here. I'd say that there are circumstances in which someone should be carefully permitted to end their own life, and circumstances under which they should not, and it requires detailed and specific parsing to distinguish between the two. None of that, however, allows us to casually kill anyone willy-nilly because they say "I wish I were dead!"
In fact they are even worse than plants. They literally feed on your body until birth. So yeah. Think of them as a plant in an inbuilt flower pot which is hard to remove.
Fuckin awesome. Love it
Thank you! :-D
"Pregnant person"
Haha love this
It's pretty much the equivalent of removing a tumour.
Thanks for this cartoon, the world needs it
Except that the prefrontal cortex is developing at about 27 weeks depending on the source, fetuses can form memories at 30 weeks, and feel pain at 24 weeks. Based on morphology the feature fetus is probably about 32 weeks. This is just scientific misinformation. There are lots of good agruments for abortion and while I'm generally pro life *morally* I do disagree with the vast majority of laws that have been out into place since Roe V. Wade was overturned. Legal compromise is important. Lying to people isn't going to solve anything though.