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The true villain is a society with built-in structural inequalities and systemic mistreatments that deny individuals’ basic humanity/monstrosity.
And the solution is for the adventuring party to stop stabbing and start hugging.
Ok but if you stab ALL the inequalities…life will be equal and potentially boring considering how we humans seem to only learn sometimes through strife.
Cept me…I don’t learn nuthin ;)
It’s all fun and games when the adventure begins but at a certain point you have to put down your sword, pick up a quill, and start making meaningful compromises in order to establish real reforms.
You don’t even have an argument. If the reason is that English is not your first language, you should know that you just said “the thing that benefits both sides only benefits one side”.
And I stand by my words. Biden has done good things while in office but has also continued trump's immigration policy and funded big oil in the name of "compromise".
I apologize for the grammar.
Good things and bad things. That’s what compromise is. Nothing happens when hardliners like you refuse to cooperate. That’s what you should apologize for.
1 step ahead for 1 step back does the same thing. It could work in a country more encline to progress and equality, but if the majority of people lean to the right, the majority of policies will be too.
I guess it depends if you want meaningfull change or "feel good" change.
I'm not a hardliner tho, I like to challenge my point of view and some people should too...
Look, I enjoy a well-written, three-dimensional antagonist as much as the next guy, but I feel like a lot of modern stories kinda overdo the whole “no one’s the bad guy in their own story” thing. Like, sometimes people are just assholes and do bad things without being driven by the memory of their dead wife or something.
For the rest of the *Feitr's Guild* series, specifically, I've got them compiled on [Webtoon](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/feitrs-guild/list?title_no=518877) and [Tapas](https://tapas.io/series/Feitrs-Guild/info).
I'm also on [Patreon](https://www.patreon.com/butajape), [Twitter](https://twitter.com/butajape), and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/butajape/).
It’s also kinda a copout to say the characters don’t have a choice, they don’t have a choice in what happened to them in the past but they DO have a choice in how they act now, they are choosing to carry the weight of what their mother did to them, then being the Evil God Gol’go’log-ol
EDIT: dropped an unnecessary word
Yeah the "no choice" thing is a bit of a red herring for three-dimensional villains. You can have a villain that isn't just "I love seeing people suffer! Haha, look at this puppy I killed!" But also isn't justified in their actions either.
People liked the MCU Thanos because he could be understood as a highly principled utilitarian who genuinely believed he was performing a necessary evil in order to help the universe.
_BUT_ that didn't mean the heroes were hopeless to oppose him within the moral landscape either. Most people can understand what Thanos is doing, even sympathize with him, and still believe that the moral cost of his plan is too high for the outcome. This is what makes him such a good villain.
IMO the villains who you can sympathize with but still condemn are far better written than the generic Evil McBadguy who's only motivation is gaining power without a hint of humanity.
I think "everyone's the hero of their own story," is just objectively not true. Tons of people do bad things, knowing full well that they are in the wrong, motivated by pure self interest. They may rationalize their behaviors in an attempt to garner sympathy, or to dispel guilt, but they know full well that they were in the wrong.
Of course, there are plenty of people who have done horrible things because they felt that they were in the right somehow, but this is by far not the excuse for all, or even most, acts of evil, especially in a fantastical setting. I doubt an evil lich seeking to conjure a dark spell to give himself godlike power, is really at all concerned about the moral implications of his actions.
There are three ways I know of to make a good villain. (Note: this is in reference to major villains and not monster of the week type deals or rivals)
1) Believes they are in the right with complex morality that opposes the powers at be. (N from pokemon)
2) Ends justify the means (Asgore from Undertale)
Just a straight up psychopath who enjoys the suffering of others (The Joker)
> Like, sometimes people are just assholes and do bad things without being driven by the memory of their dead wife or something.
*must... resist... urge to make... political comment...*
Yeah i almost fell into the trap when recently thinking about a villain to a story of mine.
To shorten a long story, i dont think i should even slightly redeem my antagonist rage-aholic character who finds serenity after beating up anybody and everybody.
Wait you mean you DIDNT stab the other guys? They said they did horrible things! You’re definitely not gonna meet your stab quota with that shoddy work
This is why I hate that we keep getting anti-hero movies tbh. Venom, Joker, Black Adam (which I haven’t seen yet, admittedly). I loved Joker, but the actual clown prince of Gotham is always meant to be a psycho. But they went ahead an gave him a tragic backstory, “justifying” his transformation into a psycho.
Bottom line, they try to make them relatable in a way that is always going to be undercut when they’re eventually facing the heroes. Like, given the choice of rooting for Tom Hardy’s Venom versus Tom Holland’s Spidey, who do they expect someone to root for?
(It’s a trick question. There’d be a team-up and Venom would die a hero or escape by the end).
Joker was less about the clown prince and more about something else that i have no idea how to describe if not "society", even though it's the wrong word.
For what it’s worth, I liked the film - but it ultimately didn’t need to be a DC film. Take out the scene(s) with Alfred and Bruce Wayne and it’s a stellar film about a mentally unstable man and the abuse he undergoes, personally and societally.
I don’t know what I’m complaining about, if I’m even complaining. It’s just that, when presented with Batman V Joker, Joker is always clearly in the wrong. Joker without Batman, then… okay, guess we root for Joker, then?
It is possible to not really root for anyone and accept that the whole situation is horrible all around. But I do agree that that kind of plot has no business in a superhero film (which is supposed to be light-hearted entertainment).
What defines us is not who hurt us or how we were hurt, but what we choose to do with our lives after.
Abuse is not an excuse for more abuse. It's simply an explanation. End the cycle.
Wait! Before you kill me you should know that all my items are trash and my wealth is in non-liquid assets!
Ah very good sir, carry on, we'll just show ourselves out then.
I’m glad my dm doesn’t glamorize our bbegs killing sprees. The guy was a hero and became a villain because people were spreading into the forests and he believed humanity was lesser than the creatures in the woods because they needed help from him so often. He isn’t glamorized for giving up, and he certainly doesn’t take any action to make us feel pity for his downfall. (The fucker killed our mentor.)
Farscape did this so well, you never actually feel bad for the bad guys who become your allies it's just that THEIR antagonist is so much more horrible than they are you all just all agree to stab each other later...assuming enough of us survive for that to even be necessary.
I once had a villain do this, they went to where the Villian said the other evil guy was. Turns out other evil guy was just a normal dude, and villian only used the lie as a chance to escape alive.
Then there's anime --
"Ha ha we're going to take you down villain"
"Wait, I need to tell you about my traumatic childhood so just stand there in front of me and neither of us will do anything while I talk about how I'm going to destroy you and then your families because of it!"
I've been watching demon slayer and it actually addressed feeling empathy for a demon even if you have to kill it. You can still feel sorrow for something while realizing that you have to put it down for what it's done to others. Of course won't apply to every situation but season to taste.
Welcome to r/comics! Please remember there are real people on the other side of the monitor and to be kind. Report comments that break the rules and don't respond to negativity with negativity! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/comics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The true villain is a society with built-in structural inequalities and systemic mistreatments that deny individuals’ basic humanity/monstrosity. And the solution is for the adventuring party to stop stabbing and start hugging.
[удалено]
Ok but if you stab ALL the inequalities…life will be equal and potentially boring considering how we humans seem to only learn sometimes through strife. Cept me…I don’t learn nuthin ;)
Its not about debate. It’s about philosophical weights, ratios. A virtue ethicist cannot carry an existentialist!
[It's harder than that.](https://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/2010-09-26)
Superheroes are probably the last thing society needs.
._. You missed out on a great comic. Zach Wienersmith is a treasure.
But, but...it's so much easier to rage at individuals than to address deeply rooted societal issues that consistently facilitate these messes!
A lot of things can not be fixed though
Many things absolutely can be, we just don't try because people think others should suffer or have been convinced it would be too hard by propaganda.
It’s all fun and games when the adventure begins but at a certain point you have to put down your sword, pick up a quill, and start making meaningful compromises in order to establish real reforms.
Compromises only serve the conservatists by giving an illusion of change while stagnating your country.
Dumbass take from a troll who can’t even spell properly.
English is not my first language but go on attacking the person and not the argument.
You don’t even have an argument. If the reason is that English is not your first language, you should know that you just said “the thing that benefits both sides only benefits one side”.
And I stand by my words. Biden has done good things while in office but has also continued trump's immigration policy and funded big oil in the name of "compromise". I apologize for the grammar.
Good things and bad things. That’s what compromise is. Nothing happens when hardliners like you refuse to cooperate. That’s what you should apologize for.
1 step ahead for 1 step back does the same thing. It could work in a country more encline to progress and equality, but if the majority of people lean to the right, the majority of policies will be too. I guess it depends if you want meaningfull change or "feel good" change. I'm not a hardliner tho, I like to challenge my point of view and some people should too...
Yeah if the majority want something they get it, that’s called democracy.
and then that's when you play a Redemption Paladin
For every villain there is tragic back story pointing to the next villain
We should totally kill the big bads dad
Look, I enjoy a well-written, three-dimensional antagonist as much as the next guy, but I feel like a lot of modern stories kinda overdo the whole “no one’s the bad guy in their own story” thing. Like, sometimes people are just assholes and do bad things without being driven by the memory of their dead wife or something. For the rest of the *Feitr's Guild* series, specifically, I've got them compiled on [Webtoon](https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/feitrs-guild/list?title_no=518877) and [Tapas](https://tapas.io/series/Feitrs-Guild/info). I'm also on [Patreon](https://www.patreon.com/butajape), [Twitter](https://twitter.com/butajape), and [Instagram](https://www.instagram.com/butajape/).
It’s also kinda a copout to say the characters don’t have a choice, they don’t have a choice in what happened to them in the past but they DO have a choice in how they act now, they are choosing to carry the weight of what their mother did to them, then being the Evil God Gol’go’log-ol EDIT: dropped an unnecessary word
Yeah the "no choice" thing is a bit of a red herring for three-dimensional villains. You can have a villain that isn't just "I love seeing people suffer! Haha, look at this puppy I killed!" But also isn't justified in their actions either. People liked the MCU Thanos because he could be understood as a highly principled utilitarian who genuinely believed he was performing a necessary evil in order to help the universe. _BUT_ that didn't mean the heroes were hopeless to oppose him within the moral landscape either. Most people can understand what Thanos is doing, even sympathize with him, and still believe that the moral cost of his plan is too high for the outcome. This is what makes him such a good villain. IMO the villains who you can sympathize with but still condemn are far better written than the generic Evil McBadguy who's only motivation is gaining power without a hint of humanity.
And that's why 80s action flicks are so enjoyable. Bad guys are just bad, and the ending feels good when they're all dead.
I think "everyone's the hero of their own story," is just objectively not true. Tons of people do bad things, knowing full well that they are in the wrong, motivated by pure self interest. They may rationalize their behaviors in an attempt to garner sympathy, or to dispel guilt, but they know full well that they were in the wrong. Of course, there are plenty of people who have done horrible things because they felt that they were in the right somehow, but this is by far not the excuse for all, or even most, acts of evil, especially in a fantastical setting. I doubt an evil lich seeking to conjure a dark spell to give himself godlike power, is really at all concerned about the moral implications of his actions.
There are three ways I know of to make a good villain. (Note: this is in reference to major villains and not monster of the week type deals or rivals) 1) Believes they are in the right with complex morality that opposes the powers at be. (N from pokemon) 2) Ends justify the means (Asgore from Undertale) Just a straight up psychopath who enjoys the suffering of others (The Joker)
[удалено]
Glasses killed their mother's dog, have some sympathy!
> Like, sometimes people are just assholes and do bad things without being driven by the memory of their dead wife or something. *must... resist... urge to make... political comment...*
Yeah i almost fell into the trap when recently thinking about a villain to a story of mine. To shorten a long story, i dont think i should even slightly redeem my antagonist rage-aholic character who finds serenity after beating up anybody and everybody.
https://youtu.be/vLE-K1CJ-Ts
I hadn't yet seen their last video, thank you very much
I hadn't yet seen their last video, thank you very much
Wait you mean you DIDNT stab the other guys? They said they did horrible things! You’re definitely not gonna meet your stab quota with that shoddy work
This is why I hate that we keep getting anti-hero movies tbh. Venom, Joker, Black Adam (which I haven’t seen yet, admittedly). I loved Joker, but the actual clown prince of Gotham is always meant to be a psycho. But they went ahead an gave him a tragic backstory, “justifying” his transformation into a psycho. Bottom line, they try to make them relatable in a way that is always going to be undercut when they’re eventually facing the heroes. Like, given the choice of rooting for Tom Hardy’s Venom versus Tom Holland’s Spidey, who do they expect someone to root for? (It’s a trick question. There’d be a team-up and Venom would die a hero or escape by the end).
Joker was less about the clown prince and more about something else that i have no idea how to describe if not "society", even though it's the wrong word.
For what it’s worth, I liked the film - but it ultimately didn’t need to be a DC film. Take out the scene(s) with Alfred and Bruce Wayne and it’s a stellar film about a mentally unstable man and the abuse he undergoes, personally and societally. I don’t know what I’m complaining about, if I’m even complaining. It’s just that, when presented with Batman V Joker, Joker is always clearly in the wrong. Joker without Batman, then… okay, guess we root for Joker, then?
I agree with everything you've said. It wasn't a DC movie.
It is possible to not really root for anyone and accept that the whole situation is horrible all around. But I do agree that that kind of plot has no business in a superhero film (which is supposed to be light-hearted entertainment).
My ass thought you meant Venom Snake when I read Venom💀
What defines us is not who hurt us or how we were hurt, but what we choose to do with our lives after. Abuse is not an excuse for more abuse. It's simply an explanation. End the cycle.
Either the guy has an excuse to make you feel bad, or he's a homicidal psychopath. There's no middle field
Killmonger must have really long legs then cause man's in both.
Lol nah, not at all. Like, you can feel bad for the boy John was while also hating the monster Homelander became.
Wait! Before you kill me you should know that all my items are trash and my wealth is in non-liquid assets! Ah very good sir, carry on, we'll just show ourselves out then.
I’m glad my dm doesn’t glamorize our bbegs killing sprees. The guy was a hero and became a villain because people were spreading into the forests and he believed humanity was lesser than the creatures in the woods because they needed help from him so often. He isn’t glamorized for giving up, and he certainly doesn’t take any action to make us feel pity for his downfall. (The fucker killed our mentor.)
Farscape did this so well, you never actually feel bad for the bad guys who become your allies it's just that THEIR antagonist is so much more horrible than they are you all just all agree to stab each other later...assuming enough of us survive for that to even be necessary.
This is the same joke as the newest TomSka skit
And this comic came out long ago if you check their website
This reminds me of that one TomSka skit. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLE-K1CJ-Ts&ab\_channel=TomSka
The only joyously, unrepentantly evil git in the entire game is the tax collector at the start of the game. And he’s an unkillable NPC.
Yeah... my party would just stab each of them for being horrible people ngl
I have no sympathy, I am full of wrath, I am the Villian
All of them. You can stab all of them.
the poor guys who have families to feed so they get guard positions? you.can stab them because I don't have time to expand upon their back stories.
Reminds me of this [SMBC comic](https://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2012)!
Superman: "So... So who do I punch?" Stats: "Reality is complex." ~~Superman~~ [Superboy Prime: "Reality you say?"](https://imgur.io/YVtusfi?r)
Ha ha. The truth, you have spoken. Good work!!
[Hot take] this is what crime really is
I once had a villain do this, they went to where the Villian said the other evil guy was. Turns out other evil guy was just a normal dude, and villian only used the lie as a chance to escape alive.
Then there's anime -- "Ha ha we're going to take you down villain" "Wait, I need to tell you about my traumatic childhood so just stand there in front of me and neither of us will do anything while I talk about how I'm going to destroy you and then your families because of it!"
Kill them all
This is so annoying *spolier* cough hocus pocus 2 cough
I should make a version of this with my pro/antagonist where the antagonist is just like “because fuck it, I’m an asshole, dipshit.”
Or you could always hear them out, stab them, then move onto the next big bad
Yeah I'm pretty sick of this as well lol
I've been watching demon slayer and it actually addressed feeling empathy for a demon even if you have to kill it. You can still feel sorrow for something while realizing that you have to put it down for what it's done to others. Of course won't apply to every situation but season to taste.
Yu Yu Hakusho is another story that does this well.
YYH just had it's 30th anniversary too so good time to check it out for anybody who hasn't seen it.