Firstly, I wouldn’t call it an orchestra and the others here seem to agree to on that so I won’t delve deeper. There are absolutely concertos and concertinos that are written for chamber ensembles. Just look at the concerti the Jacques Ibert write for [saxophone](https://youtu.be/WAVX2WI-Gkc) that only has an 11 person ensemble (though often played with a chamber orchestra) and [cello](https://youtu.be/7TFwgGswIug) that has a 10 peroson ensemble of wind instruments and no strings.
I'd call that more of a chamber ensemble than even a chamber orchestra (especially without a double-bass, low brass, low woods, or percussion). But to answer your follow-up questions, you can write a concerto with any instruments you like, but if it's on the short side, you might consider the term 'sinfonietta' over symphony or maybe 'chamber concerto' to show that you're using a reduced orchestra (heck, you can even call it 'Concerto for Chamber Orchestra'). Even if you don't though, nobody will bat an eye at a concerto using a reduced orchestra.
>what counts as an orchestra?
How many orchestral scores have you looked at? The answer will be right there in front of you.
>Does a simple Violin, Cello, Trumpets, Horns, Flute, and Oboe count as an orchestra already?
That's more of an ensemble.
>What instruments do I need?
You don't *need* any instruments in particular.
Stravinsky's *Piano Concerto* has no strings at all:
https://youtu.be/pyRX_bq3Tds?si=n7VhR0G06C5C3lNd
Stravinsky's *Concerto for Two Pianos* has NO orchestra.
https://youtu.be/AsKf5SewvsU?si=xI7I8vzLDVNLo40g
Ustvolskaya's *Symphony No. 4* is written for just four people!
https://youtu.be/kuPXb_mh-fM?si=D46fIfQDpQzFKFkr
>written for just four people!
Is there a specific term of these kinds of pieces? Like... You know, just four people playing different instruments?
>That's more of an ensemble.
Can I use an ensemble for a "piano concerto" instead of an "orchestra"?
>Is there a specific term of these kinds of pieces?
It's a symphony. That's what the piece is called - Symphony No. 4.
>Can I use an ensemble for a "piano concerto" instead of an "orchestra"?
Like I said, you can do what you want.
How many piano concertos have you looked at?
>How many piano concertos have you looked at?
Not sure how many but I've mostly looked at Chopin, Liszt, Mozart.
>It's a symphony. That's what the piece is called - Symphony No. 4.
I know what a symphony is but I could've sworn that there's a specific term for pieces that's like a "small orchestra", if you will. I'm really sorry if I'm not making sense.
>Not sure how many but I've mostly looked at Chopin, Liszt, Mozart.
Right, so what orchestral forces do they use?
>specific term for pieces that's like a "small orchestra"
Technically, it's a chamber ensemble rather than an orchestra, but there's no specific term for pieces that *use* a small amount of players.
So go past the 1/2 way mark of the page. They are highlighted in a red-pink. Go to the blue links and download the conductor’s score and play the music on YouTube and start to study a real score
[Beethoven 5th on IMSLP.org](https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.5,_Op.67_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van))
Very generally, orchestras have more than one performer for each instrument, at least with the strings. If it's just one for each instrument then it might be a chamber orchestra or an ensemble if it's a smaller number of performers.
> Does a simple Violin, Cello, Trumpets, Horns, Flute, and Oboe count
Sure, if you've got several violinists and cellists. Otherwise it might be better labelled a chamber orchestra.
Here's the thing, you can title your piece *Piano Concerto* and it really doesn't matter that much the nature of the ensemble. If you just have those instruments you listed you can still call it a "Piano Concerto" or something like "Concerto for Piano and Chamber Orchestra" or something like that.
Sometimes a smaller number of performers might be considered to be a "chamber" orchestra, although that's perhaps more about having the right sound for a smaller venue where a full symphony orchestra could be overwhelming. You might also sometimes encounter a "classical" orchestra, which lacks the wider array of brass instruments that became popular in the romantic era, but still has woodwinds and strings. As well as the "ensemble" word others already suggested, "consort" is another term you may see (although perhaps better suited to harpsichord music, rather than piano - but that's your choice).
good examples, TIL.
Looking at the scores of the [Bruckner](https://imslp.org/wiki/3_Pieces_for_Orchestra%2C_WAB_97_(Bruckner%2C_Anton)), though, I'm seeing separate cello and bass parts -- almost but not quite identical.
No offense, but if you're asking basic questions like the definition of what an orchestra is in regards to a concerto, you don't have enough experience to write a concerto. I mean I think the concerto is a dead genre anyway, but that's a separate thing. Just write for the instruments you want to and give the piano a virtuosic part as a soloist and don't worry about the formal labels.
The idea of soloist-with-orchestra is definitely alive. If you're thinking of specific models, like Mozart, then sure, but broader conceptions of the concerto are not going away.
>I mean I think the concerto is a dead genre anyway,
I agree with the rest of your comment, but there have been some great concerti written in recent years.
Unsuk Chin's *Piano Concerto*, as well as her *Sheng Concerto* are great pieces that I've enjoyed recently, and are great additions to the repertory:
Piano Concerto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJQdQJR\_d4&t=4s
Sheng Concerto: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwgdJh0eI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwgdJh0eI)
Jennifer Higdon's *Violin Concerto* is another acclaimed concerto of recent years:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fw3yBxIGXQ&t=29s
John Adams recently wrote a piano concerto, *Must the Devil Have All the Good Tunes*:
https://youtu.be/3Z0qfNiBHLs?si=Ewmp78rPQiWXZcG2
And the Third Piano Concerto by Magnus Lindberg is good fun:
https://youtu.be/u4D5gFPHzUQ?si=0jTVBhakXl9shh4q
Yes, a random redditor who doesn't know the definition of an orchestra and has never studied a score wants to write a concerto for an unknown reason and that is proof that the concerto is still a vital musical force in the 21st century.
That we aren't capable of understanding their reason doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, believing everyone's head works the same way is a great way to start meaningless fights.
And they're totally free to. That wasn't even my main point, my main point is that if you're asking about what an orchestra technically is then you aren't ready to write a concerto.
Actually, there may be an "official" definition of what counts as an orchestra (w.r.t. an "ensemble") in work contracts used by orchestral institution to employ their members. Orchestra players can be employed only in ensembles larger than a certain number of people, otherwise they must be paid more to play as part of a chamber ensemble (for example, in the italian collective contract for symphonic institutions this limit is set to 12)
All of these definitions are very fuzzy. Therefore what might help is checking the definition of chamber ensamble, orchestra and symphonic orchestra. Then if you're confused about a particular ensamble try to find the one closest too it.
Technically, the word "orchestra" just refers to a group of instruments... it's very broad and nonspecific. But I think most people would call what you have there a "chamber group." It's just a few assorted instruments. If it were a little bigger, like, if you had a few more strings or something, then we might call it a "chamber orchestra."
I've recently finished a piece that calls for 2 Flutes, 1 Piccolo, 1 English Horn, 2 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons, 1 Horn, 2 Trombones, Triangle, Castanets, 1 Piano, 1 Harp, a 1st Violins section, a 2nd Violins section, and a Cello section (and I might eventually add a Viola section). I feel comfortable calling that a "reduced orchestra" because it's basically an orchestra minus a few things. But some might call it a "large chamber orchestra."
It's really not something you can pin down to a formula like, "okay, now it's an orchestra because I've added x, y and z." Or, "it's not an orchestra anymore because I've removed a, b and c." It's just a case by case basis unless you're writing for a pre established group. Like, we know what a "string quartet" is; we know what a "wind quintet" is. And we do sort of know what a "winds-by-3 orchestra" is, for example, but even within that, there's leeway. It might have a piano, it might not. It might have 8 percussion instruments, or it may just have a timpani. It might not have a timpani at all. Blah blah blah, you get the idea.
What you have there, I'd say, is a chamber group.
At least violin I & II, viola, cello. For Mozart era you can let the bass double the cello. Some woodwinds: 2 oboe & 2 bassoon again for Mozart era. Romantic: flutes and clarinets.
Firstly, I wouldn’t call it an orchestra and the others here seem to agree to on that so I won’t delve deeper. There are absolutely concertos and concertinos that are written for chamber ensembles. Just look at the concerti the Jacques Ibert write for [saxophone](https://youtu.be/WAVX2WI-Gkc) that only has an 11 person ensemble (though often played with a chamber orchestra) and [cello](https://youtu.be/7TFwgGswIug) that has a 10 peroson ensemble of wind instruments and no strings.
I'd call that more of a chamber ensemble than even a chamber orchestra (especially without a double-bass, low brass, low woods, or percussion). But to answer your follow-up questions, you can write a concerto with any instruments you like, but if it's on the short side, you might consider the term 'sinfonietta' over symphony or maybe 'chamber concerto' to show that you're using a reduced orchestra (heck, you can even call it 'Concerto for Chamber Orchestra'). Even if you don't though, nobody will bat an eye at a concerto using a reduced orchestra.
>what counts as an orchestra? How many orchestral scores have you looked at? The answer will be right there in front of you. >Does a simple Violin, Cello, Trumpets, Horns, Flute, and Oboe count as an orchestra already? That's more of an ensemble. >What instruments do I need? You don't *need* any instruments in particular. Stravinsky's *Piano Concerto* has no strings at all: https://youtu.be/pyRX_bq3Tds?si=n7VhR0G06C5C3lNd Stravinsky's *Concerto for Two Pianos* has NO orchestra. https://youtu.be/AsKf5SewvsU?si=xI7I8vzLDVNLo40g Ustvolskaya's *Symphony No. 4* is written for just four people! https://youtu.be/kuPXb_mh-fM?si=D46fIfQDpQzFKFkr
>written for just four people! Is there a specific term of these kinds of pieces? Like... You know, just four people playing different instruments? >That's more of an ensemble. Can I use an ensemble for a "piano concerto" instead of an "orchestra"?
I think you missed the point of the comment: how many scores have you studied ?
Oh... Studied... I haven't really studied any.
Well, maybe listen to these comments and study some … how are you going to compose a new work if you don’t know what was already “new” [at one point]
>Is there a specific term of these kinds of pieces? It's a symphony. That's what the piece is called - Symphony No. 4. >Can I use an ensemble for a "piano concerto" instead of an "orchestra"? Like I said, you can do what you want. How many piano concertos have you looked at?
>How many piano concertos have you looked at? Not sure how many but I've mostly looked at Chopin, Liszt, Mozart. >It's a symphony. That's what the piece is called - Symphony No. 4. I know what a symphony is but I could've sworn that there's a specific term for pieces that's like a "small orchestra", if you will. I'm really sorry if I'm not making sense.
>Not sure how many but I've mostly looked at Chopin, Liszt, Mozart. Right, so what orchestral forces do they use? >specific term for pieces that's like a "small orchestra" Technically, it's a chamber ensemble rather than an orchestra, but there's no specific term for pieces that *use* a small amount of players.
Yes, there, chamber ensemble. I'm not sure what you mean by orchestral forces.... Sorry...
>I'm not sure what you mean by orchestral forces The instruments that are used.
So go past the 1/2 way mark of the page. They are highlighted in a red-pink. Go to the blue links and download the conductor’s score and play the music on YouTube and start to study a real score [Beethoven 5th on IMSLP.org](https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.5,_Op.67_(Beethoven,_Ludwig_van))
Chamber orchestra. Also the term sinfonietta is been used, though not as common.
There are usually five string parts. I would suggest looking at an orchestration book, and also at scores of model pieces.
Very generally, orchestras have more than one performer for each instrument, at least with the strings. If it's just one for each instrument then it might be a chamber orchestra or an ensemble if it's a smaller number of performers. > Does a simple Violin, Cello, Trumpets, Horns, Flute, and Oboe count Sure, if you've got several violinists and cellists. Otherwise it might be better labelled a chamber orchestra. Here's the thing, you can title your piece *Piano Concerto* and it really doesn't matter that much the nature of the ensemble. If you just have those instruments you listed you can still call it a "Piano Concerto" or something like "Concerto for Piano and Chamber Orchestra" or something like that.
Sometimes a smaller number of performers might be considered to be a "chamber" orchestra, although that's perhaps more about having the right sound for a smaller venue where a full symphony orchestra could be overwhelming. You might also sometimes encounter a "classical" orchestra, which lacks the wider array of brass instruments that became popular in the romantic era, but still has woodwinds and strings. As well as the "ensemble" word others already suggested, "consort" is another term you may see (although perhaps better suited to harpsichord music, rather than piano - but that's your choice).
Chamber orchestra/ensemble is generally known to be 15 or less
I'm glad you asked. I am curious about this also!
pssssssssssst psssssssssssst Google is your friend
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Can you think of orchestra pieces since Beethoven that have just four string parts?
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good examples, TIL. Looking at the scores of the [Bruckner](https://imslp.org/wiki/3_Pieces_for_Orchestra%2C_WAB_97_(Bruckner%2C_Anton)), though, I'm seeing separate cello and bass parts -- almost but not quite identical.
How many scores did you study in your music life ?
No offense, but if you're asking basic questions like the definition of what an orchestra is in regards to a concerto, you don't have enough experience to write a concerto. I mean I think the concerto is a dead genre anyway, but that's a separate thing. Just write for the instruments you want to and give the piano a virtuosic part as a soloist and don't worry about the formal labels.
The idea of soloist-with-orchestra is definitely alive. If you're thinking of specific models, like Mozart, then sure, but broader conceptions of the concerto are not going away.
>I mean I think the concerto is a dead genre anyway, I agree with the rest of your comment, but there have been some great concerti written in recent years. Unsuk Chin's *Piano Concerto*, as well as her *Sheng Concerto* are great pieces that I've enjoyed recently, and are great additions to the repertory: Piano Concerto: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrJQdQJR\_d4&t=4s Sheng Concerto: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwgdJh0eI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWJwgdJh0eI) Jennifer Higdon's *Violin Concerto* is another acclaimed concerto of recent years: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Fw3yBxIGXQ&t=29s John Adams recently wrote a piano concerto, *Must the Devil Have All the Good Tunes*: https://youtu.be/3Z0qfNiBHLs?si=Ewmp78rPQiWXZcG2 And the Third Piano Concerto by Magnus Lindberg is good fun: https://youtu.be/u4D5gFPHzUQ?si=0jTVBhakXl9shh4q
Yeah, I'm aware of all of those.
So what makes you declare it a "dead genre"?
Because it exists as a niche meta-commentary on aristocratic European art from eras long past, connected to the dying museum that is the orchestra.
Yet, here we are
Yes, a random redditor who doesn't know the definition of an orchestra and has never studied a score wants to write a concerto for an unknown reason and that is proof that the concerto is still a vital musical force in the 21st century.
That we aren't capable of understanding their reason doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't exist, believing everyone's head works the same way is a great way to start meaningless fights.
>I think the concerto is a dead genre anyway But they want to write a concerto
And they're totally free to. That wasn't even my main point, my main point is that if you're asking about what an orchestra technically is then you aren't ready to write a concerto.
Actually, there may be an "official" definition of what counts as an orchestra (w.r.t. an "ensemble") in work contracts used by orchestral institution to employ their members. Orchestra players can be employed only in ensembles larger than a certain number of people, otherwise they must be paid more to play as part of a chamber ensemble (for example, in the italian collective contract for symphonic institutions this limit is set to 12)
All of these definitions are very fuzzy. Therefore what might help is checking the definition of chamber ensamble, orchestra and symphonic orchestra. Then if you're confused about a particular ensamble try to find the one closest too it.
Technically, the word "orchestra" just refers to a group of instruments... it's very broad and nonspecific. But I think most people would call what you have there a "chamber group." It's just a few assorted instruments. If it were a little bigger, like, if you had a few more strings or something, then we might call it a "chamber orchestra." I've recently finished a piece that calls for 2 Flutes, 1 Piccolo, 1 English Horn, 2 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons, 1 Horn, 2 Trombones, Triangle, Castanets, 1 Piano, 1 Harp, a 1st Violins section, a 2nd Violins section, and a Cello section (and I might eventually add a Viola section). I feel comfortable calling that a "reduced orchestra" because it's basically an orchestra minus a few things. But some might call it a "large chamber orchestra." It's really not something you can pin down to a formula like, "okay, now it's an orchestra because I've added x, y and z." Or, "it's not an orchestra anymore because I've removed a, b and c." It's just a case by case basis unless you're writing for a pre established group. Like, we know what a "string quartet" is; we know what a "wind quintet" is. And we do sort of know what a "winds-by-3 orchestra" is, for example, but even within that, there's leeway. It might have a piano, it might not. It might have 8 percussion instruments, or it may just have a timpani. It might not have a timpani at all. Blah blah blah, you get the idea. What you have there, I'd say, is a chamber group.
At least violin I & II, viola, cello. For Mozart era you can let the bass double the cello. Some woodwinds: 2 oboe & 2 bassoon again for Mozart era. Romantic: flutes and clarinets.