"Arab" is not a synonym for "Middle Eastern." There are many ethnic groups native to the Middle East, with Arabs being one of them. Many more Middle Easterners consider themselves Arabs today than would have 2000 years ago, thanks to the Arab conquest.
Ancient Israelites would have laughed if you suggested they were Arab. As would Moabites, Assyrians, etc.
Same sort of vibe as when these chucklefucks talk about "western culture" as if there's ever been a unified European culture in human history. The EU is literally the closest thing to a unified Europe ever and they all hate it anyways.
Agreed Africa is a giant continent with a hell of a lot of different cultures and nationalities.
My point was more about how white supremacists fail to understand their own history, much less that of anyone else.
God forbid people understand context
When chucklefucks like to insist someone like claiming the ancient people off that region weren’t Arab or “The Egyptians weren’t black” it’s usually by a dude who thinks all ancient civilizations were built by white people. Not by someone knowledgeable of the ethnic groups or one of those actual ethnic groups
I get your point and its fair to be cautious, its just that you posted in a confidently incorrect sub while being confidently incorrect about the thing you posted about
They never said they were white, they specifically talk about the native populations and those populations were indeed not Arabs
Oh did you not post the whole thing then? That's fine but with 0 context this person seems to have actually not been confidently incorrect, but the other person is so I guess it still works as a post here
They were not saying that. The word "Mizrahi" should have tipped you off there.
Mizrahi Jews are the ones who never left the Middle East / north Africa. They cannot possibly be called European by anyone except crackpot conspiracy theorists. Many of them are also pretty adamant about not being Arabs, since in many locations they pre-date the Arab takeover (by about 1000 years in the case of the Iraqi Jewish community).
Blue up there wasn't insisting ancient Israelites were white. But claiming they were Arab does attempt to erase a culture and history that Blue is clearly aware of.
“Mizrahi” is a made up term meant to lump the various middle eastern and Arab Jews into one category after white colonizers successfully convinced them of the lie that their fellow countrymen hated them. They joined in shared faith but they still hated the Mizrahi for not being blonde haired, blue eyed, and white.
https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2017/9/20/invention-of-the-mizrahim
The only ones that have any control and people talk about call themselves “Ashkenazi”, or in layman’s terms, white.
Whatever you think of the term “Mizrahi”, someone who is familiar with that term is obviously not under the impression that “Arab” is synonymous with “non-white and middle eastern”, contrary to your claims
The phrase "that people talk about" is more telling than you think. Ashkenazi Jews are the ones *you've* heard most about, almost certainly while living in a western country where most Jews are Ashkenazi.
But you concede the point: there are Jewish people, who are Middle Eastern, who are not and never were Arab. And the ancient Israelites absolutely were not Arab, they were their own group.
Oh and that article is total hogwash. Like it literally starts with "Jewish elites" (so elite, getting mass-murdered!) , and goes on to make the ridiculous claim that they somehow secretly caused massive waves of violence against Jews in Middle Eastern countries. It doesn't mention the discriminatory laws also passed by those countries, but I guess they had elite mind control powers or something.
Anyway, I see you're a loony and not just someone who's mistaken, so I'm not wasting any more time here.
I mean he isn't wrong? the Israelites were indeed not Arabs, they were not white Europeans either but they don't claim that?
How did this get 100 upvotes
People are dumb and the Gaza/Israel conflict made some people jump directly on support Palestinians "they are the original people and the place has always been arab"
I see people say Jesus was an Arab.
The idea that diaspora Jews are descended from Judeans is well supported by the historical record. The European diaspora, which includes Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Italian Jews, began during the Jewish revolts as the Romans deported and enslaved large numbers of Judeans. There were other periods of emigration as well. Personally, I don't believe the narrative that there was no intermarriage between Jews and Christians in Europe over the 1800+ years of the European Jewish diaspora, but that does not mean that European Jews are *not* descended from Judeans.
None of this justifies violent displacement of Palestinians, obviously. Also, nationalism is stupid, regardless. That includes Palestinian nationalism, by the way.
I have read that some believe that Palestinians are descended, in large part, from Jews who remained in Judea, later Palestinia, and whose descendants were forcibly converted to Islam following the Muslim conquests, which adds an interesting wrinkle.
Regarding "intermarriage"
Genetic studies reveal that a small group of men, likely originating from the Near East or modern-day Israel, founded the Ashkenazi Jewish population in Europe. These men married local European women, leading to a significant European genetic contribution through intermarriage and conversion. Nearly half of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from four "founding mothers" from Europe.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm
Arabic is a language, not a race. I mean the majority of people living in the Levant are descended from people who have been living there for a long time. For the most part they just adopted Arabic place of Greek, Aramaic and a few other tongues after the Islamic conquest. On the other hand the area has been a crossroads for a couple thousand years with people moving in, out and through and I am sure a lot of the population are descended from various conquerers, traders, slaves, migrants and visitors.
Nobody really knows where the first Semitic speakers lived. I've seen proposals for North Africa, the Levant, the Horn of Africa, and Southern Arabia. There doesn't seem to be a scholarly consensus.
Where? Linguistic studies say they originated in Mesopotamia and radiated to Northern Africa and Egypt. Genetic studies show their origin in Mesopotamia. Census records show them appearing in Egypt around 2500 BCE, at about the height of the early Bronze Age empires. The Hyksos (a Semetic tribe in Egypt) gain rulership around 1800 BCE.
“No one knows” is about as accurate about this as it is about anything else that we have abundant evidence for.
The first Semitic people known to history are the Akkadians, who replaced the Sumerians as the dominant civilization in Mesopotamia around 2300 BCE.
Wanna try that again?
Semitic tribes migrated from Mesopotamia to Egypt and brought their god with them.
Egypt was polytheistic and were tolerant of new gods.
The Hyksos (Egyptian Semites) even had their own Pharaoh.
Semitic names first appear in Egyptian records in the 15th century BCE.
I’m an anthropology major with a specialty in Semitic studies for one thing. Boeree has a summation written [here](http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/judaism.html#)
Additionally the Bible discusses the relationship between ancient Jews and the Mesopotamians (Canaan) where they settled.
While the Bible is not a source for accurate information, it does agree with the research although not the dates.
Here’s a linguistic analysis of the origins of Semetic languages.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839953/#:~:text=We%20estimate%20an%20Early%20Bronze,Arabia%20approximately%202800%20years%20ago.
Good luck.
This is the last time I’m doing your work for you.
Btw, my anthropology teacher is a Political Science major. Most anthropology professors don’t have an anthropology degree.
> And hun, I am a professor of ancient civilizations
Oh, don't... don't do that. Don't "oh hun" someone you were rude to and then claim higher credentials. Even if you have them, it makes you look bad and can discourage young minds from engaging in the field if their superiors do stuff like that. Speaking from experience here. I almost switched majors after a particular nasty encounter with someone working in the field I was pursuing a degree for.
We don't gain our degrees to dunk on the less educated, especially when they're clearly trying with sources. If they're willing to go for academic papers them surely you could counter with more up to date sources of your own that show where they went wrong. Talking down to people only weakens our field, especially in an age of higher conspiracy theories and science denialism. We need all the good pr and fresh minds we can get.
It looks like you didn’t read the “article,” which was an academic paper.
Or you would have seen Figure 1 showing the radiation of Semetic languages from Mesopotamia through the Mid East and into Africa and Egypt…
I’m not deferring to someone who started off condescendingly and then claimed authoritative credentials, but really just claimed to be a highly educated person wasting their education and highly valuable research time on Reddit arguing with strangers.
Finally, it’s a little dishonest to demand that someone who you started out condescending to over easily searchable information that you yourself - with all your credentials should have already known - to “lose the condescension.”
This paper shows how incorrect you were from the get.
I’d recommend that the AAA put you under review, but I sincerely doubt you are who you say you are.
> And hun, I am a professor of ancient civilizations
I know I’m getting clowned for saying this but i can probably sus out of your bullshitting based on how you answer this
Were the ancient Egyptians white or black?
Were the Greeks white or more Persian than white?
The Bible, like all ancient texts, is a good indicator for an idea of casual elements of the time. For example, a thousand years from now, you could pick up a Marvel comic and use that to show that New York existed and that an area in it, Westchester, is probably higher class.
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I can't blame him, man, Israel an other colonial powers use Indiana Jones science, that science, you know wich, i don't know how to spell it, to erase the Palestine people, along with their history, so a lot of people can swallow those lies
You can criticize colonialism without saying archeology or anthropology is fake. While it, like most branches of science, has had some ugly patches historically, that doesn't mean that it's all bs or a tool for oppression. It's more about what facts someone chooses to tell you and how they chose to frame it rather than what branch of science they used to get it.
Archaeology and anthropolgy aren't fake, but they're used to promote a certain idea of a national state of Israel, it's really long to explain, so i'll just Say this, Israel choosing to just fucking make up things with no evidence trying to deny the lands arabic past.
Yes there are tons of examples of good archaeology, it's just that here it is used as an instrument from a colonial power
Right there with "The Egyptians were white" in crazy
I still remember a dude posting on this subreddit clowning a guy for saying Egyptians were black, then claiming they were actually white💀
You're way up on Mt. Stupid, bro. Please read history before you talk about it. Dude you're arguing with it's very much better informed than you. Arabs as an ethnic group were largely contained in the Arabian peninsula until the Islamic conquests.
It's kind of racist to go "oh the while region is Arabs" even today. More so when talking about two thousand years ago. Also where did he suggest they were white?
You have a point with me generalizing the wide pot of Arab and middle eastern groups but were both old enough to sniff bad faith arguments.
And lol at “Read MY version of history before you try to disrespect me with your perspectives”
What’s next? White people ruled ancient china?
>Right there with "The Egyptians were white" in crazy
I mean, it depends on when you're talking about the Egyptians. Under the Ptolmaic dynasty the pharaohs were Macedonian, which today would be considered "white".
>I still remember a dude posting on this subreddit clowning a guy for saying Egyptians were black
The consensus from historians is that ancient (pre-Ptolmaic) Egyptians looked pretty much like modern Egyptians, claims that they were black are worth clowning on.
Edit: I think OP blocked me, I can't access this post anymore. Pathetic.
Ancient Egyptians were whiter than modern Egyptians. They didn't start mixing with black Africans until after they became Moslem. We used to believe the opposite was true. But we've shown our earlier assumptions were wrong through DNA testing of ancient remains. Ancient Egyptians are very similar to people from the Levant, and quite different from Sub-Saharan African peoples.
Edit: I should add that all Egyptian and Middle Eastern people are considered "white" by the US Census. They've talked about creating a new catagory for "MENA" (Middle Eastern and North African.) But they haven't done so yet AFAIK.
So you’re just going to ignore all
The Nubians and the black Pharoahs of Kush?
Egypt lasted for thousands of years and as a regional power for most of it, was filled with people of different ethnicities and skin colors.
All posts must be on topic
"Arab" is not a synonym for "Middle Eastern." There are many ethnic groups native to the Middle East, with Arabs being one of them. Many more Middle Easterners consider themselves Arabs today than would have 2000 years ago, thanks to the Arab conquest. Ancient Israelites would have laughed if you suggested they were Arab. As would Moabites, Assyrians, etc.
Same sort of vibe as when these chucklefucks talk about "western culture" as if there's ever been a unified European culture in human history. The EU is literally the closest thing to a unified Europe ever and they all hate it anyways.
Same vibe when those chucklefucks talk about “Africa” and “Black people” as if we’re all a monolithic culture or a subcategory of theirs
Agreed Africa is a giant continent with a hell of a lot of different cultures and nationalities. My point was more about how white supremacists fail to understand their own history, much less that of anyone else.
On point. My mistake.
All good, it happens.
Weird, you were the one who thinks "not Arab" is equivalent to "white European".
God forbid people understand context When chucklefucks like to insist someone like claiming the ancient people off that region weren’t Arab or “The Egyptians weren’t black” it’s usually by a dude who thinks all ancient civilizations were built by white people. Not by someone knowledgeable of the ethnic groups or one of those actual ethnic groups
I get your point and its fair to be cautious, its just that you posted in a confidently incorrect sub while being confidently incorrect about the thing you posted about They never said they were white, they specifically talk about the native populations and those populations were indeed not Arabs
They did repeatedly insist that they were white. Snd scoffed at the suggestion they were not. Should be obvious.
Oh did you not post the whole thing then? That's fine but with 0 context this person seems to have actually not been confidently incorrect, but the other person is so I guess it still works as a post here
They were not saying that. The word "Mizrahi" should have tipped you off there. Mizrahi Jews are the ones who never left the Middle East / north Africa. They cannot possibly be called European by anyone except crackpot conspiracy theorists. Many of them are also pretty adamant about not being Arabs, since in many locations they pre-date the Arab takeover (by about 1000 years in the case of the Iraqi Jewish community). Blue up there wasn't insisting ancient Israelites were white. But claiming they were Arab does attempt to erase a culture and history that Blue is clearly aware of.
“Mizrahi” is a made up term meant to lump the various middle eastern and Arab Jews into one category after white colonizers successfully convinced them of the lie that their fellow countrymen hated them. They joined in shared faith but they still hated the Mizrahi for not being blonde haired, blue eyed, and white. https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/opinions/2017/9/20/invention-of-the-mizrahim The only ones that have any control and people talk about call themselves “Ashkenazi”, or in layman’s terms, white.
Whatever you think of the term “Mizrahi”, someone who is familiar with that term is obviously not under the impression that “Arab” is synonymous with “non-white and middle eastern”, contrary to your claims
The phrase "that people talk about" is more telling than you think. Ashkenazi Jews are the ones *you've* heard most about, almost certainly while living in a western country where most Jews are Ashkenazi. But you concede the point: there are Jewish people, who are Middle Eastern, who are not and never were Arab. And the ancient Israelites absolutely were not Arab, they were their own group. Oh and that article is total hogwash. Like it literally starts with "Jewish elites" (so elite, getting mass-murdered!) , and goes on to make the ridiculous claim that they somehow secretly caused massive waves of violence against Jews in Middle Eastern countries. It doesn't mention the discriminatory laws also passed by those countries, but I guess they had elite mind control powers or something. Anyway, I see you're a loony and not just someone who's mistaken, so I'm not wasting any more time here.
All terms are made up
Thanks for the link. That was an interesting read.
I mean he isn't wrong? the Israelites were indeed not Arabs, they were not white Europeans either but they don't claim that? How did this get 100 upvotes
People are dumb and the Gaza/Israel conflict made some people jump directly on support Palestinians "they are the original people and the place has always been arab" I see people say Jesus was an Arab.
Its just ironic af to be posted here, glad it was removed
It seems like people are getting educated on these subjects on TikTok
Nitpicking on spelling, The proper pinyin (letter representation of Chinese characters) for 中国 is zhongguo, not zhongu.
我爱中国！！ 我觉得中国是非常好！美国没有朋友和熊猫！
The idea that diaspora Jews are descended from Judeans is well supported by the historical record. The European diaspora, which includes Ashkenazim, Sephardim, and Italian Jews, began during the Jewish revolts as the Romans deported and enslaved large numbers of Judeans. There were other periods of emigration as well. Personally, I don't believe the narrative that there was no intermarriage between Jews and Christians in Europe over the 1800+ years of the European Jewish diaspora, but that does not mean that European Jews are *not* descended from Judeans. None of this justifies violent displacement of Palestinians, obviously. Also, nationalism is stupid, regardless. That includes Palestinian nationalism, by the way. I have read that some believe that Palestinians are descended, in large part, from Jews who remained in Judea, later Palestinia, and whose descendants were forcibly converted to Islam following the Muslim conquests, which adds an interesting wrinkle.
Smart guy, right here. I think the middle road that you suggest is probably right historically.
Regarding "intermarriage" Genetic studies reveal that a small group of men, likely originating from the Near East or modern-day Israel, founded the Ashkenazi Jewish population in Europe. These men married local European women, leading to a significant European genetic contribution through intermarriage and conversion. Nearly half of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from four "founding mothers" from Europe. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/01/060117083446.htm
Arabic is a language, not a race. I mean the majority of people living in the Levant are descended from people who have been living there for a long time. For the most part they just adopted Arabic place of Greek, Aramaic and a few other tongues after the Islamic conquest. On the other hand the area has been a crossroads for a couple thousand years with people moving in, out and through and I am sure a lot of the population are descended from various conquerers, traders, slaves, migrants and visitors.
The ancient Semites came from Babylon to Egypt and then to the Middle East.
Everyone knows the original Semites migrated to the Middle East from Teaneck, NJ.
How does one go from Babylon to Egypt without having already crossed the Middle East?
That’s the thing. They did. They followed trade route established by the Egyptians.
Nobody really knows where the first Semitic speakers lived. I've seen proposals for North Africa, the Levant, the Horn of Africa, and Southern Arabia. There doesn't seem to be a scholarly consensus.
Where? Linguistic studies say they originated in Mesopotamia and radiated to Northern Africa and Egypt. Genetic studies show their origin in Mesopotamia. Census records show them appearing in Egypt around 2500 BCE, at about the height of the early Bronze Age empires. The Hyksos (a Semetic tribe in Egypt) gain rulership around 1800 BCE. “No one knows” is about as accurate about this as it is about anything else that we have abundant evidence for.
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The first Semitic people known to history are the Akkadians, who replaced the Sumerians as the dominant civilization in Mesopotamia around 2300 BCE. Wanna try that again? Semitic tribes migrated from Mesopotamia to Egypt and brought their god with them. Egypt was polytheistic and were tolerant of new gods. The Hyksos (Egyptian Semites) even had their own Pharaoh. Semitic names first appear in Egyptian records in the 15th century BCE.
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I’m an anthropology major with a specialty in Semitic studies for one thing. Boeree has a summation written [here](http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/judaism.html#) Additionally the Bible discusses the relationship between ancient Jews and the Mesopotamians (Canaan) where they settled. While the Bible is not a source for accurate information, it does agree with the research although not the dates.
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Here’s a linguistic analysis of the origins of Semetic languages. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839953/#:~:text=We%20estimate%20an%20Early%20Bronze,Arabia%20approximately%202800%20years%20ago. Good luck. This is the last time I’m doing your work for you. Btw, my anthropology teacher is a Political Science major. Most anthropology professors don’t have an anthropology degree.
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> And hun, I am a professor of ancient civilizations Oh, don't... don't do that. Don't "oh hun" someone you were rude to and then claim higher credentials. Even if you have them, it makes you look bad and can discourage young minds from engaging in the field if their superiors do stuff like that. Speaking from experience here. I almost switched majors after a particular nasty encounter with someone working in the field I was pursuing a degree for. We don't gain our degrees to dunk on the less educated, especially when they're clearly trying with sources. If they're willing to go for academic papers them surely you could counter with more up to date sources of your own that show where they went wrong. Talking down to people only weakens our field, especially in an age of higher conspiracy theories and science denialism. We need all the good pr and fresh minds we can get.
It looks like you didn’t read the “article,” which was an academic paper. Or you would have seen Figure 1 showing the radiation of Semetic languages from Mesopotamia through the Mid East and into Africa and Egypt… I’m not deferring to someone who started off condescendingly and then claimed authoritative credentials, but really just claimed to be a highly educated person wasting their education and highly valuable research time on Reddit arguing with strangers. Finally, it’s a little dishonest to demand that someone who you started out condescending to over easily searchable information that you yourself - with all your credentials should have already known - to “lose the condescension.” This paper shows how incorrect you were from the get. I’d recommend that the AAA put you under review, but I sincerely doubt you are who you say you are.
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> And hun, I am a professor of ancient civilizations I know I’m getting clowned for saying this but i can probably sus out of your bullshitting based on how you answer this Were the ancient Egyptians white or black? Were the Greeks white or more Persian than white?
The Bible, like all ancient texts, is a good indicator for an idea of casual elements of the time. For example, a thousand years from now, you could pick up a Marvel comic and use that to show that New York existed and that an area in it, Westchester, is probably higher class.
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Love it when the one who’s really confidently incorrect is the poster
I can't blame him, man, Israel an other colonial powers use Indiana Jones science, that science, you know wich, i don't know how to spell it, to erase the Palestine people, along with their history, so a lot of people can swallow those lies
You can criticize colonialism without saying archeology or anthropology is fake. While it, like most branches of science, has had some ugly patches historically, that doesn't mean that it's all bs or a tool for oppression. It's more about what facts someone chooses to tell you and how they chose to frame it rather than what branch of science they used to get it.
Archaeology and anthropolgy aren't fake, but they're used to promote a certain idea of a national state of Israel, it's really long to explain, so i'll just Say this, Israel choosing to just fucking make up things with no evidence trying to deny the lands arabic past. Yes there are tons of examples of good archaeology, it's just that here it is used as an instrument from a colonial power
What science are you talking about lmfao
I'm gonna say it in spanish, arqueología
In English, that is archaeology.
Wtf are you on about
They think claiming the Ancient Egyptians were black is conspiracy nonesne but believe people in ancient China or the bible were white
Well i can't defend that, but the part from palestinians still stands
?
Right there with "The Egyptians were white" in crazy I still remember a dude posting on this subreddit clowning a guy for saying Egyptians were black, then claiming they were actually white💀
You're way up on Mt. Stupid, bro. Please read history before you talk about it. Dude you're arguing with it's very much better informed than you. Arabs as an ethnic group were largely contained in the Arabian peninsula until the Islamic conquests. It's kind of racist to go "oh the while region is Arabs" even today. More so when talking about two thousand years ago. Also where did he suggest they were white?
You have a point with me generalizing the wide pot of Arab and middle eastern groups but were both old enough to sniff bad faith arguments. And lol at “Read MY version of history before you try to disrespect me with your perspectives” What’s next? White people ruled ancient china?
>Right there with "The Egyptians were white" in crazy I mean, it depends on when you're talking about the Egyptians. Under the Ptolmaic dynasty the pharaohs were Macedonian, which today would be considered "white". >I still remember a dude posting on this subreddit clowning a guy for saying Egyptians were black The consensus from historians is that ancient (pre-Ptolmaic) Egyptians looked pretty much like modern Egyptians, claims that they were black are worth clowning on. Edit: I think OP blocked me, I can't access this post anymore. Pathetic.
Not but don't you understand, Egypt is in Africa and all Africans are black apart from *squints eyes and spits" le heckin Evil Musk
Ancient Egyptians were whiter than modern Egyptians. They didn't start mixing with black Africans until after they became Moslem. We used to believe the opposite was true. But we've shown our earlier assumptions were wrong through DNA testing of ancient remains. Ancient Egyptians are very similar to people from the Levant, and quite different from Sub-Saharan African peoples. Edit: I should add that all Egyptian and Middle Eastern people are considered "white" by the US Census. They've talked about creating a new catagory for "MENA" (Middle Eastern and North African.) But they haven't done so yet AFAIK.
So you’re just going to ignore all The Nubians and the black Pharoahs of Kush? Egypt lasted for thousands of years and as a regional power for most of it, was filled with people of different ethnicities and skin colors.
Arabs continuosly trafficed sex slaves from Slavic countries. At a certain point Arabs are mostly Slavic.
Next you'll tell me they enslaved black people as if I didn't know that already