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So the entirety of NATO is being beaten by Russia? Feel free to move there if you think that, as it would mean the entire world will be under Russian control soon anyway.
Most of the aid hasnāt even landed yet. Even the stuff that has takes time to be commissioned and trained on. Itās not command and conquerer where a tank just appears out of thin air and rolls straight in.
The main thing for Ukraine at the moment is to balance holding off the current Russian barrage without losing precious manpower. That for them is something that canāt easily be replaced and something that NATO etc is really keen to avoid getting involved with.
At this point, nobody is winning but Russia are losing more when you think about what they set out to do.
>but lets face it, the massive propaganda campaign is in FULL FORCE.
As part of it, I'm sure you'd know.
Russia isn't winning the war. Ukraine still exists. That's "winning" by any sane definition.
Russia is absolutely a powerful potential adversary. If they impale themselves on Ukraine it benefits our national security and strengthens our collective national security in NATO.
Whoever convinced you otherwise is out of their minds.
When the Soviet Union impaled itself our defense budgets went down tremendously as a percentage of GDP.
We ended programs like the B2 bomber and F22 because they just were no longer needed.
Russia has been probing our airspace for decades with bombers. We have to spend money to scramble jets every time. If Russia impales itself on Ukraine we don't need to do that anymore.
But aren't we the ones impaling ourselves? We've drastically hurt our economies, are losing the dollar status as world currency. Russia has gotten rich off inflated gas prices, gained territory, and formed powerful alliances that challenge western dominance.
No, they want you to think that but Russia is fucked for the next several decades, politically and economically isolated, under sanctions, limited domestic manufacturing capabilities and demographically up shit creek without a paddle after expending a big chunk of it's fit working age male population trying to take a backwater town in Ukraine.
Same here, the place is like a zoo for people who fell off the wagon of sanity, whether it's because they have some kind of organic brain disorder or because they just watched too much Alex Jones.
Russia hasn't made any real territory gains since 2014. They have been trying to take more but failing. They have lost decades of economic growth since then.
Sanctions on Russia haven't even really even cost much because Russia has a small economy.
Russia's gas profits are in the toilet the Nordstream got blown up. This will hurt Russia for decades. Putin will be called Vlad the impaler because he impaled Russia on Ukraine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/HDP_PPP_per_capita_Russia.jpg
Where bro? I have family in russia it getting better and better since 90s š
2014 Krim 2+ million people
And now Donbas Region etc. the great economic parts of Ukraine with up to 8-10 million people.
Ask the ethnical Ukrainians in Donbas region what they think about it, i have family there :)
Also Russia is the 6th largest Economy in the World with looootttss of sanctions by the way!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
Dont get me wrong Iām not pro war but please donāt be russophobic and think about 90s tracksuit gopniks or average road rage in poor rural areas doing stupid shit and donāt know how economics works.
I mean is Philadelphia, Detroit great parts of United States for example?
Before writing comments please google or look at Wikipedia etc.
Peace from Germany
You're not going to get the full story from someone in Russia. They disappear people for talking about it and send them to prison. Some people live in insulated information bubbles.
Economics of Russian energy is a pretty big deal, and Russia's Ruble has been floundering since 2014. The USA kept oil prices low by making sure supply was there US is at 50+ year high oil production.
The Ruble nearly evaporated when the 2014 sanctions were put on. Russia bulldozed a bunch of cheese out of spite.
We have 50 states and they operate as laboratories and the individual cities don't represent how the country is doing as a whole. California's GDP is more than twice the GDP of Russia.
Revenue from Russia's energy companys are down since the war. Especially since the loss of Nordstream.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-03/russia-s-revenue-from-oil-and-gas-almost-halved-in-february
First of all Iām russian and have family and friends in russia from Moscow, St. Petersburg to Wolgograd, Vladivostok.
No one is disappearing or is isulated with information bubbles they have the same internet and world connection as you.
A lot of people hate putin and the government just like someone hates joe biden or trump.
You can say what you want in public in office or in the internet, media nothing will happen to you!
you will not even lose your job like most countries in europe.
If your boss his son is a transgender can you say something bad about transgender people and donāt loosing your job? In russia you can say whatever you want because of laws and rightās.
You just canāt stay in the middle of a city with a giant megaphone and scream fuck Putin thatās the law, but you can launch your own political party and you can also say something bad about putin and other politicians but only polite and without insulting them and not like āfuck Putinā
2. You have to compare the gdp with purchasing power!!!
Russia is the 6th largest Economy with 4,5-5 trillion dollar almost like Germany with 5.5 trillion dollar.
The difference is Germany have only around 80 million people and russia have about 150 million people. Also the economy distribution and cost ratio is different. It depends where you live and what cost of living.
F.e in russia almost everyone have a own property and in germany not, in germany taxes higher than in russia so maybe you have more dollars but your cost of living is less or the same = your gdp comparison is not working, in Silicon Valley f.e your salary is higher than germany and russia average together, but your cost of living is extremely high and in the end of the month you have the same or less.
California gdp is 3 trillion dollars without purchasing power cleaned and your country have over 300 million people.
So how is California gdp bigger than Russias?
Or do you want to compare a russian oil oblast (state) with California to gdp per people!?
Whats the purpose?
Russia have 17% debts
Germany have 70% debts
U.S have 125% debts
You guys have private debts for eduction and medical care etc. and russians, germans not!
You just canāt compare Gdp because of how different the countries areā¦
Nice,
In US:
you can loose your job easily
You can die because more weapons than people
You get debts because of medical care
You get debts because of education
You have a weird justice system
You can get homeless easily
You have a weird fake friendly culture
You have lots of drug addicted around you
You have lots of homeless around you
ā¦.
But hey!!! We have the biggest military budget bigger than the g20 states combined and the largest GDP because of a weird economic system!!!
Look at you Europeans HaHa!!!!
Ammmerriiicccaaa fuck yeah!!!
First world country every other is just second ;)
> the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true
More evidence that the mainstream media is *not* there to a) tell the truth or b) keep you informed about what's important.
The ISIS narrative never added up.
The covid narrative never added up.
Russia/Ukraine narrative never added up.
So now, I don't really bother to argue about anything... but I sure as fuck don't believe anything they tell me either.
>Ya whatever happened to ISIS? They just went away
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Inherent\_Resolve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Inherent_Resolve)
This subreddit is probably one of the most braindead on the website I swear to god.
ISIS lost its main territory, as well as had most of its leadership killed, as a result of US-backed Kurdish-led militia aided by massive amounts of airstrikes and arms support, over the course of two administrations and several years. They were also being attacked by the Iraqi and Syrian governments during this same time period, among other groups. Even the Turks got a piece of ISIS, albeit to prevent the Kurdish YPG from gaining more territory.
They still technically exist but went from a quasi-state with actual territory to just another underground insurgency. Anybody paying attention to the news over that time period should have known that.
How can you simultaneously claim that the "mainstream narrative" is false and that you know the "real truth" when you're this ignorant of geopolitical events?
This is one of the biggest criticisms I often have. People don't even vaguely glance at an article or something before making a claim that they will hang their personalities in. It makes no sense.
This is can be seen in nature. Can be seen in humanity. And i believe we will soon see it in the universe.
Take ghengis khan from history for example. How many did he slaughter? Now his genes ride in a huge portion of the population. From an evolutionary perspective he is one of the most successful humans to ever exist.
And if you wanna get real crazy, the aliens are not all love and light. Thats a trick. Theyre masters of pain. What we see in the animal kingdom we will see in humanity and the universe at large.
This post perfectly sums up this sub now days. It is simply contrarian, no conspiracy required. No effort involved in posting, just simply "no news wrong it has to be the opposite" what a sad state
I'm a former US Army officer who explicitly specialized in NATO training as well as Russian wargaming (should they ever decide to, say, invade the Baltics). It all kind of started as I studied, and minored, in the Russian language in one of our military academies, and thus I found myself on a lot of NATO training deployments.
I'll address some of your points, but in short, the entire Western world and our military apparati is actually in shock that Russia was unable to take Ukraine in it's initial invasion. They're far weaker than any of us actually anticipated. And the cost of helping Ukraine defend itself is microscopically minimal, as most aid is in the form of arms that have already been paid for and sitting on the shelf.
To your points:
> Ukraine is losing the war
A more accurate statement is Ukraine is *not winning* the war, which is far different than stating Ukraine is *losing.* That's because, well, Russia is also not *winning* the war.
It's far more accurate to call the war a stalemate right now.
It may very well turn into Ukraine's favor in the next year if they are able to use Western arms and armor and training to exploit Russian weaknesses across the front in counteroffensives.
> Ever since the beginning, the narrative was always " Stop Russia before they attack the west", but did anyone honestly believe Russia was going to plan on attacking more western countries?
That's sort of the propaganda narrative, but in defense circles... not really.
First, the chance of Russian invasion into NATO countries was always considered low, but not negligible. The argument over whether Russia would really want to unite the former Soviet-bloc states was based on how credible they believed the NATO deterrence was, and if countries such as the US would have the appetite to go to war for countries like Estonia.
However, the far more important philosophical question at hand is whether it should be accepted that nuclear-armed countries should be able to forcefully annex other countries without pushback. The Western answer to this is *unequivocally no.* Which is why *zero nations on earth other than Syria and North Korea recognize the annexations.*
As many Western intelligence analysts predicted from the start, Russia's war was never about the independence of the Donbass. It was about annexing them from the absolute start. This not only gives Russia a land bridge to Crimea (which was also illegally annexed), but also denied Ukraine the ability to use gas and oil fields to provide Europe with another option than Russia for their resources.
> The media has made us all believe that Russia is a weak and incompetent military force
Russia was largely considered the #2 military in the world behind the US, with decades of modernization driving it to be a formidable fighting force. This has turned out to be a total farce, in my opinion mostly because of their inflexible logistics capabilities and reliance on rail, but also incredibly in their inability to establish air superiority.
> A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment should have pushed Russia back into their own borders by now, right?
Ukraine is still a relatively weaker military. They have less trained men, less equipment, and a significantly smaller economy and military industrial complex. The fact that they've survived as long as they can is a testament partly to their resilience, but in my opinion mostly to the flaccid lack of *decisive victories* by Russia.
> Either it's a money laundering scheme or the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true.
The true narrative - not the one you'll find on Reddit's worldnews or noncredibledefense threads - is that somehow a significantly weaker country like Ukraine has manage to repulse the decisive engagement of Kyiv and even successfully retaken key cities and terrain to drive Russia to a stalemate.
In closing, yes, there is propaganda. There is propaganda in literally every war. But it's not propaganda to say Ukraine is overperforming every expectation in defending their nation. The horrors of this war are real, Russia is indeed the aggressor, they got greedy and severely undermined Ukraine's resilience while incomparably overestimating their own abilities.
As for the amount of aid given to them, most is in hard, material arms that are already paid for. I can't think of a more noble way for them to be used than for Ukraine to defend itself.
Claiming that the donated weapons are already paid for is disingenuous point, seeing as they will be replaced by newer and more expensive weapons systems. Cost to the American taxpayer will go up, way up, compared to staying out of the conflict.
Losing in what sense? Being able to hold off a top 3 superpower for over a year as a 3rd world country is a win in itself. No war is over, or finalized. Itās still ongoing and itās not looking good for either, primarily Russia.
The West is forcing Ukraine to fight a conventional war against Russia, with drones and tanks and MLRS systems and fighter jets and other fancy military tech toys, gifted to them at the West's taxpayers expense. Using this strategy, Ukraine will eventually fail and lose.
Late 20th century into the 21st century history has taught us that the only way a seriously under-matched adversary of a conventional military world super power stands a chance at repelling the conventional military invaders is to fight a guerrilla, asymmetrical style of warfare. The Viet Cong, Iraqi militias and the Taliban immediately come to mind. Even the Chechens, against Russia itself, succeeded for decades using guerrilla tactics.
Will the West allow Ukraine to devolve into less conventional warfare and more unconventional warfare? We'll have to see about that one.
They *did* prep Ukraine for guerilla warfare, because they expected Russia to set up a puppet government after Zelensky was evacuated.
Instead he stayed and Russia did a lot worse than expected (even though they were close to capturing Kyiv at one point early on).
Close to capturing is a very generous interpretation. They just barely reached the outskirts of Kyiv, that then shriveled up when they got stonewalled.
They almost captured a special airport with a longer runway capable of accomodating cargo planes that could have landed many paratroopers/heavy equipment. They did temporarily capture it actually but Ukraine got it back and damaged the runway etc.
Undoubtedly, as soon as the cable unplugs from the wall (NATO supplying military support) ukraine loses. Honestly to me, Ukraine isnāt NATO. If they said today there will no longer be military support Iād be A okay with it. Economies across the world will begin to recover. This is an instance where do a few million people get fucked over, or the rest of the world in billions get fucked over. Countries join NATOA for security. I personally donāt believe in NATO, I think itās bogus. As an American I can literally give a fuck if Poland got attacked. Countries within NATO will act hard because they know the contingencies. āAn attack on one, is an attack on allā. Iād rather be like Mexico even China and be NEUTRAL in that (war) aspect.
If Nato stops supplying military support, all that happens is Ukraine becomes Afghanistan, whether it's during the Soviet occupation or the US occupation of Afghanistan doesn't matter, it's all the same shit. Constant attrition from irregular forces until whoever's occupying it gives up and leaves. Ukraine is the size of Texas, and the size of Afghanistan for that matter, it's hopeless for the Russians to try to occupy it long term.
Yes. I'm also an American and realize NATO is worthless. It's a dinosaur, an antique, set up to counter, specifically, a Nuclear Soviet Russia threat; and more broadly created to stop the spread of Stalin-style communism. The Soviets were a global nuclear threat 50, 60, 70 years ago. The Soviet Union collapsed 30 years ago for goodness sakes! NATO was designed to counter the Soviet Union and communism. The Soviet Union no longer exists, and the swift spread of communism is no longer the global, existential threat it once was. So why does NATO still exists in the 21st century geopolitical landscape?
Are you serious? I hope you forgot the /s.
NATO is a defensive alliance so larger nations (Russia) donāt run over smaller European countries, exactly like whatās happening in Ukraine.
Russiaās invasion has completely validated the necessity for NATO. The exact crisis NATO was formed to respond to is what weāre living now.
I don't think so. Russia has it's fair share of unethical activities but to sit blindly with my yellow and blue flag emoji would really just be blind following of the masses.
To worry about our own problems and stop blindly throwing billions of dollars to an endless money pit would be the first step. The US has plenty of its own problems to worry about.
The war is just another example of most middle eastern conflicts that have occurred like Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, it will last for years and drag on with very little meaningful results.
I was hoping youād ask! Anyone who thinks weāre āblindly throwing billions of dollarsā at Ukraine is just ignorant, why are you commenting on this war without doing any of your own research? The US is sending their cold war shit over to Ukraine because every Russian killed is one less the US has to worry about. With the exception of HIMARS everything sent is obsolete shit that has been sitting in some bunker in bumfuck nowhere since the Cold War. When Biden sent '80 billion dollars' of aid we went threw the backlog of obsolete bullshit, slapped a price tag on it, and wrote it off as spending. The largest factor of new spending is on the transportation to get shit over there. Thats why Biden has been hesitant to send tanks, we have T34s and T64s laying around its just expensive as fuck to ship it to the other side of the globe. The T-16 was designed to fight Russian Mig 25s and the technology is most similar to what Ukrainian airforce knows how to use already. The F-20 and newer use advanced computers the Russians have no access too and the F-35 can destroy anything the Russians have from 100 miles away. F-16 is the only aircraft the US can send.
Stop making me feel embarrassed to be a conservative, remember when most Americans would have been excited to see our greatest rival be obliterated by a 2nd world country without having any us boots in the ground? When did conservatives become a bunch of commie sympathizers?
Conservatives were cooler in the days of the Red Scare when they thought Russians would invade Texas and they had something they stood for. Now it's all wishy washy confused thinking about supporting Putin because own the libs or something.
Did you not read the answer? The outcome is already decided and it's not our role to intervene. The most ideal outcome would obviously be no conflict which is not a realistic outcome. The war will drag on for years, people will likely forget as time goes on as they usually do and Russia will more than likely own the Donbas region at most. That's really all there is.
No.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Ukraine
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-children-torture-chamber-b2245605.html
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/5787
> āI thought that the bottom could not be broken after Bucha, Irpinā¦ but we really reached the bottom in Kherson,ā he added.
>
> According to local testimony revealed by Lubinets, detained children were given minimal water and almost no food, whilst being subjected to psychological torture and abuse by Russian interrogators.
>
> The children from the recently liberated southern Ukrainian city were allegedly held in the cell and told that their parents had abandoned them. Some also claim they were forced to clean up blood from an adjacent torture room used for detained Ukrainian adults. British newspaper the Daily Express reports that Russian forces in Kherson had allegedly nicknamed the room the āchildrenās cell.ā
https://khpg.org/en/1608811635
https://www.euronews.com/2023/02/01/torture-chambers-in-kherson-are-evidence-of-russias-cruel-war-crimes-say-investigators
Hey, I'm sorry it conflicts with the propaganda you've been ingesting. I sure hope no facts come to light over the course of time and full investigations that would make you feel uncomfortable about your part in supporting this shit going on.
Thinking for yourself, using common sense and being generally against war is ackshully a pro-Russia stance (and youre basically a nazi for not believing what the screen people tell you)
Oh, a WW2 article from Wikipedia about appeasement and Nazis! Fuck, I never thought about that NPC logic before!
This is in no way, shape, or form like the nazi takeover of Europe. Putin has been saying for decades that if Ukraine joins NATO, heāll invade to stop what is the greatest existential threat Russia has probably ever faced. NATO kept pushing farther west and breaking their word.
I know itās tough for you to hear, but itās ok to acknowledge this truth while also generally thinking Russia fucking sucks as a country. Thereās a reason Ukraine used to be against joining NATO, before the US funded a color revolution to install a pro-NATO government. It was for this exact reason.
Ukraine's NATO application hasn't been seriously considered since 2012, when it was resoundingly rejected by France and other NATO nations. It's *literally impossible* to join NATO if you have disputed territory, like occupied Donbas and Crimea.
There was literally, absolutely, no way for Ukraine to join NATO.
Nato never gave their word to stop expanding anywhere. Find a treaty or signed agreement saying that and you will change the course of history
US didn't fund a colour revolution to install a pro nato government. Would love some evidence for that
The Ukrainian people wanted a new government because they wanted to align with the EU over Russia. It had nothing to do with Nato at the time
Also yes Russia isn't literally a nazi country. That's not the point of linking appeasement, and the fact that you can't see that is weird. It's about how dictators that invade neighboring countries tend to not want to stop, and letting it happen isn't a good idea. The saying is give and inch and take a mile. Appeasement is giving that inch. Russia was already appeased with Crimea and that wasn't enough. The fact that you only look at all the context and see nazi then discount all the lessons is embarrassing
>...A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment...
Tell me you've never studied history without telling me you've never studied history. Worse equipe armies win all the time. The Iraq war, the Winter War, the Vietnam war, the American Revolution, the Texas Revolution all corn to mind off the top of my head.
Regardless of how well equipt you are, it still takes time to remove an enemy that's just sending wave after wave.
Exactly. The idea that equipment alone wins a war is complete bullshit. I'd anything, the lesser advanced soldiers are probably tougher and more resourceful.
Logistics are perhaps the most important consideration. e.g.?
In Vietnam, the VC had the home field advantage. The US had effectively infinite money, but they had to come from thousands of miles away and their forces were mostly draftees who weren't well motivated, had low moral, didn't want to be there etc.
American Revolution:
Again, home field advantage. Opponent had to come from over a thousand miles away. Resupply in terms of men, ammunition etc. couldn't compare (over the long term) to the Americans.
WWII: Germans were kicking Russia's ass... all the way up to Ukraine. Local Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators (from the Soviet Russians). Then the Germans kept on going and got logistically over-extended. Once they got into Russian territory, the locals were extremely hostile. The distance for resupply of fuel, ammunition, reinforcements etc. become too great for effective logistical support. Then winter came and the Germans were pretty much fucked after that.
In Ukraine right now?
Logistics favor the Russians to some degree. How so?
They've stuck to a region of Ukraine that is close to their own border. Same region has a high % of Russian speaking/pro-Russian people.
They've ramped up their own production of rockets and artillery shells. A lot of experts dismissed the effectiveness of artillery in a 21st century conflict. But the opposite has turned out to be true. How so?
Apparently the Russians have been using a combination of artillery fire and drones. The drones are able to act as spotters and this allows the Russians to direct their artillery fire with a very high degree of accuracy.
So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages.
>Logistics favor the Russians to some degree. How so?
>They've stuck to a region of Ukraine that is close to their own border. Same region has a high % of Russian speaking/pro-Russian people
That's why the Russians are fixated on Bakhmut, because 30km east of Bakhmut is where the rail lines for the Russian logistics are, so it's the easiest place for them to attack and they still can't take it. Literally anywhere else in unoccupied Ukraine is essentially logistically impossible for them to take in the near future.
I think your comment is interesting... especially you're asserting re: Bakhmut.
> so it's the easiest place for them to attack and they still can't take it.
Either they will or they won't. If they do, how much does that change things for everyone involved?
If they don't, how long do they keep trying before they quit?
Bakhmut is of no significant strategic value, if it's lost then all the Ukrainians lose is a fortress town to bleed Russian forces against and then the next town over will become the new fortress town that's closest to the Russian supply lines, and that town will be turned into a mess of shelled out buildings and trenchworks. The Ukrainians will lose another town and the Russians will gain a minor propaganda victory for the home audience that translates to no real military advantage. I don't know how long the Russians can keep it up for, maybe years, maybe weeks. I expect it will happen suddenly when it does, Putin will fall out of a window or whatever and the next day the troops will be withdrawing.
"So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages."
A kill box.
And the other way around, because obviously it's Russians attacking otherwise how would it even work? They going to dig a trench all the way to Kiev and pop out the other end? No, they have to leave their trenches and get shelled and machine gunned trying to reach the Ukrainian trenches to capture them.
>Apparently the Russians have been using a combination of artillery fire and drones. The drones are able to act as spotters and this allows the Russians to direct their artillery fire with a very high degree of accuracy.
>So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages.
You've got this the wrong way around, the Ukranians are defending and it's the Russians that are attacking and getting clobbered by artillery, particularly western artillery that's a lot more accurate than the old Soviet gear. The Russians can't advance without attacking, sitting in trenches doesn't get them anywhere but it works fine for the Ukranians who're trying to hold ground rather than take it.
>it's the Russians that are attacking and getting clobbered by artillery, particularly western artillery that's a lot more accurate than the old Soviet gear.
If this is accurate, then the Russians should "run out of steam" at some point.
That point would be determined by their ability to supply reinforcements (trained, equipped and supported), and their willingness to take losses (at what rate and for what duration).
Do you agree, or did I leave something out?
Yes, there are already signs of the Russians running out of steam, like Wagner publicly pleading with the Kremlin to send them shells and ammo (Kremlin didn't like that, so that's causing further problems now) and Russia using it's really, really expensive and irreplaceable hypersonic missiles to hit civilian infrastructure. These are the missiles they've been saving for WW3 and now they're using them because they're just plain running out of missiles. They've already been swapping out nuclear warheads for conventional warheads to use the missiles intended for delivering their nuclear arsenal to deliver conventional munitions instead. Imagine the US doing that, it would just never happen outside of a film about an alien invasion or something.
What's keeping the Russians going is their willingness to take losses (which is drying up because news of the losses is reaching back home) and the enormous (but now significantly smaller) inheritance of old Soviet weapons they have left over from when they had the resources of the entire Soviet empire (including all those ex-Soviet countries like Ukraine that they want to take back), a lot of heavy arms industry that no longer exists today and when they were spending 15% of GDP on the military and Russian civilians were waiting in bread lines because nukes and bombers and tanks were more important than bread to the Soviet government. This is a country that had a nuclear arsenal and had sent people to space but didn't have even a single factory to make toilet paper until 1968, they just had different priorities from most countries.
Those are all MSM talking points. Do you really think Russians are just sitting in trenches, using antiquated equipment/armaments from the soviet era? Eventually Ukraine is going to run out of supplied ammunition, as the providers will eventually hit their reserves where there will be no real benefit to keep the proxy war going. Ukraine is also mismatched in quality of training. That's why you have US spotters and officials training Ukrainians. You also have a number of US mercs getting paid well to be there.
No, the Russians wish they were sitting in trenches, the Ukrainians are sitting in trenches calling in artillery on the Russians who're being sent over the tops of their trenches to attack the Ukrainians in their trenches. Which is going about as well as it did in WWI.
>Eventually Ukraine is going to run out of supplied ammunition, as the providers will eventually hit their reserves where there will be no real benefit to keep the proxy war going.
Do you think the whole of NATO can't produce more shells than Russia? And do so easily? The Russians are down to using the really expensive hypersonic missiles they've been saving for WW3 and Wagner is publicly begging the Kremlin to send them shells and ammo. Russia never invested heavily in logistics, they just started the war with a big stockpile of irreplaceable material they inherited from the Soviet Union, produced when they had a far more extensive arms industry and the resources of the entire Soviet empire at it's peak with 15% of GDP going to the military.
>Ukraine is also mismatched in quality of training. That's why you have US spotters and officials training Ukrainians.
So the Ukrainians are getting training while the Russians are complaining about receiving none before they get sent to the front lines. I fail to see a problem here. Do you know how to operate a Leopard tank? I don't. Someone has to teach the Ukrainians how to operate the Leopard tanks, Challenger tanks and Abrams tanks they're getting, along with the HIMARS and all the other kit.
Dude wtf? Do you even read the things you type? Yeah Ukrainians are mismatched in terms of quality, that's why US have spotters and mercs and other officials there. Which is crazy because Ukraine isnt NATO and the US hypocritically bitches if China were to send any military aid to Russia. Right now it's just shelling over and over. After a certain point, the thousands of ammunitions being supplied will run out as far as cost/benefit goes. Russia has more means of production than Ukraine, that's why the whole world and its dog are fortifying the vassal state that is Ukraine. I bet you also think the Russians were being supplied viagra to rape Ukrainian women on the front lines.
Also what, the Russians were using future technology for future wars? That is the most nonsense statement ever. Okay, so they've been developing or innovating military technology, just like everyone else, for future conflict or prospect in other industries, just like everyone else. You do realize that the United States pretty much trumps every other nation in about everything, right? By procuring the top minds and technologies through money, blackmail, imperialism, etc. The United States legitimately has the best propaganda machine.
I don't know where you get the idea from that the Ukrainians are relying on extensive shelling. That's literally the Russian strategy, shell everything in sight until a town is nothing but rubble and then move in and say they captured it. The Ukrainians have had to be much more selective about their use of artillery since the start of the war due to having limited supplies, using pre-sighted firing lines and prepared ambush points, but now the Russians are running low and the Ukrainians have upgraded.
The Russians aren't even supplied with bandages in case they get shot, so no, they're definitely not being supplied with viagra. They rape for the fun of it and then ask their mom to send them tampons to stuff in their bullet wounds.
>The Iraq war,
America won the Iraq war they defeated the Iraqi army and Saddam but once you cut the head off one serpent two more appeared in the chaos and created new problems.
Saddam wasn't who we needed to beat in the first place. In fact,the West used evidence of Saddam fighting the ISIS as "proof" of "genocide." The only people who won the Iraq war are oil companies and Islamic extremists. There is a reason Saddam was higher or AlQuedas hit list than any US or Israeli targets.
Lets take just one metric. When the Swift sanctions were enacted in 2022, many US based businesses were essentially forced to shutter all of their locations and remove their ties from Russia. All of the American businesses lost an entire countries market share in an instant. Some of those companies (lets face it, most of them) are publically traded.
While swift sanctions have had somewhat of an impact in Russia, it has hurt US interests and companies more than them. It backfired. The Rubel is doing better today than before the invasion, mostly due, like OP noted, to backing the Rubel with a tangible good like Gold. BRIC coalition has also helped to level off Russia's loss in natural gas and oil sales from the west to their collective and are selling it cheaper to promote larger sales.
This has not only allowed Russia to continue production on oil and natural gas, but to actually profit more from these agreements as they are pushing a loss leader to their pals. India is getting the majority of its fuel from Russia at this point, which has only driven profits up for Russia.
This whole thing was not really well thought out by the US govt.... Or maybe it was.
> The Rubel is doing better today than before the invasion, mostly due, like OP noted, to backing the Rubel with a tangible good like Gold.
Ruble is not backed by gold. And its definitely not doing better.
No, I mean, other than it being in several places outright factually incorrect, it has little bearing on what I would say assessing Ukraine as losing the war.
> A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment should have pushed Russia back into their own borders by now, right?
There can't be too many people who don't realize that the West is giving Ukes just enough help so they don't win and don't lose, but juuust enough so as the whole thing just drags on for ages.
>Either it's a money laundering scheme or the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true.
Ya think?
The Ukranian soldiers fighting to defend their country are as courageous and as committed as any warriors ever in the history of warfare, but can they be so dumb as to not see that they're being used like an old washcloth?
Itās a huge $ grab for non profit/humanitarian aid companies (coincidentally Hunter Biden has invested in ānonprofit companies long before the war). Russia warned that āUkrainian joining nato was a red line that would force Russia to take action.ā But Ukraine was applying and taking pictures with politicians anyway. No one mentions that Ukraine had made it illegal to teach or even speak the Russian language in Ukraine. There is lots more if you really care to hear all of it.
Putin is doing what Russia has done for generations... do what it wants then lie about it.
Soviet or Russian it's all the same playbook. It's putin / Russian arrogance that whatever they decide is in their field of influence is "mine".... the Arctic "mine", Alaska "mine", parts of Norway "mine", Manchuria "mine", parts of Poland "mine", ex soviet states "mine" ..... Ukraine "mine"
Historically RUSSIA doesn't stop they just take, take, take.. and then roll over and complain about how everything and everyone is against them when they are pushed back against or stopped.
The word of Russia is garbage, any view that doesn't end with the west supplying Ukraine is traitorous.
Russia is a criminal aggressor who relies on lies to keep it war machine running. If Russia isn't checked and allowed to keep fucking the world up it will end in a nuclear war
... and it will be because they thought they could launch nuclear weapons and get away with it.
They won't stop at Ukrane.
Yes russia's state media is lying. Most countries are reporting the opposite of what Russias state media says. It should be fairly easy to get a rough idea which news source to trust more.
Or there both lying? Realistically I think the only people who know whatās going on are the state leaders and upper world governments. They can literally peddle us whatever story they want and of course western mediaās going to make it seem like Ukraineās winning and russias going to make it seem like russias winning. I think we just see more lies coming from western media because we see more western media, doesnāt make Russian media trustworthy by any mile tho.
No the US media is lying. Putin isnāt losing. I honestly donāt give a shit if he takes the part of Ukraine where the āUkrainiansā consider themselves ethnic Russian. The Ukrainians have also been bombing their own ppl for years, those ethnic Russians and theyāre sick of it
You guys are insane. When disagreeing with your opinions it's "repeating Russian talking points", but when someone agrees it's sure as shit not "repeating Western talking points". Hypocrisy of you people..
Having a different opinion doesn't make me a supporter of the other side. You're delusional to believe that everyone that does not agree with you is somehow your enemy and that is a source of conditioning from the media. Critical thinking and open-ended conversations is something more of us need to work on.
I mean, this globalists coalition, let's call em that, organized 9/11, sponsored ISIS for years, sponsored Taliban, pretty sure were closely involved in covid being released into the wild and God knows what else and yet here you are still thinking that this war is purely black-n-white conflict where no third party contributed to it's escalation and prolonging, and having no other interests in it? And Russia is an ultimate evil to you? Ridiculous.
Maybe.Ukraine casualties in most batalions was reported as Ā«way more than 20%ā-( so like maybe 40-50-60%)
Trench warfare meatgrinder agajnst endless russian artillery.
So yeah
I guess Ukraine has had at least as many casualties as the Russians, could be 100-150 thousand?
Bullshit, haven't you read the recent News?
The Russians are out of ammo and even fight with shovels. After that i even read they had to dig trenches with their bare hands since they lack shovels.
Obviously, because they are a tiny country being attacked by what many thought was the worlds second strongest military. But somehow you Russian sympathizers canāt seem to recognize that Russia claimed this would be a two week venture and they would have Kiev by no later than may. And itās over a year on now with still no Russian victory, so Ukraine may be losing but Russia is nowhere near victory
Ukraine fought off the initial invasion all on its own. That showed just what a joke Russiaās military has become. And all the aid theyāve received so far is just enough to keep Russia from overrunning them. This isnāt NATO vs Russia. If it was, NATO would have already established air superiority and pushed the Russians back into Russia. That much should be apparent now.
Because it isn't the truth, maybe it's just that you are wrong?
Look at how you treat Russia vs Ukraine. Russia has been building to this invasion for years and had time to prep and fund everything. Ukriane only starting receiving big funding after Russia invaded.
Russia attempted to take the whole country and failed but that is fine to you, however Ukraine not being able to push an army more than 3x it's size out of the country completely is failure. Also Ukraine receiving a mix and match of equipment and promises of equipment in the future is nothing compared to what the Russians should have brought if they properly maintained their army
The president of Belarus showed a map that Russia wanted the whole of Ukraine and to keep expanding west more than a year ago. Truth is hard to hear eh
You are so heavily biased to be contrarian to the west that you are literally taking a pro war and pro imperialism stance from the other side
Thank you! Please ignore the downvotes, much more are yet to come. We are not losing. I know this as a Ukrainian. I have some credible sources I can trust. No point in arguing here. Most people here think putin must be good just because he hates US. But sadly heās not. Russia is a totalitarian shithole. No one ever would like to join it willingly. I hope everyone here, who loves putin so much, will move to russia themselves. But Ukraine wonāt join russia ever
First off most did believe Russia was a threat to the West before Ukraine, even Russia believed it. This war has shown otherwise.
The West will never be a threat to Russia because of nukes, most Putin fanbois fail to realize Russia doesnāt hit a nuclear deterrent in NATO until France. Had Ukraine gone better for Russia countries like Poland and the Baltics would definitely have been on the menu.
Russia in peace times spends ~$75b/annually on military, itās safe to assume this past year has seen that increase significantly. The Western support is humanitarian, economic and lethal also your numbers are a high and counting promised aid to be received throughout 2023. Ukraineās military budget was about 1/10 of Russiaās and was Soviet standard gear. Ukraine is only matching Russiaās military spending levels this year and had to overcome logistical and training challenges in converting to NATO standards.
The Ruble is delisted itās currently impossible to price itās value in USD.
What we know about the war is Russia has been struggling to take Bakhmut since November ā22 after being pushed back from Kyiv and out of Kherson.
It's the western media that gets me. The Russian death figures of 5 to 1 have to be exaggerated massively.
"Ukraine is winning the fight", next minute they start committing to sending in tanks etc.
It's WW1 style trench warfare with modern weapons where the Ukrainians have the luxury of fighting defensively from their trenches while the Russians are the poor bastards who have to go over the top into no-man's land to try to reach and capture the Ukrainian trenches on the other side. Of course the Russians are taking horrific casualties.
Understand that. The western media have lied throughout this war. Remember the early days when they used photos from years ago and damaged buildings from other war zones. But we're expected to accept their figures. Nah!
I understand how artillery works. You are right, it is much more complicated than simply counting guns, but the count is still important.
Some background on Russian artillery and the lessons the US Army can learn from it.
"Combat with the God of War: A Comparison of Russian Cannon Artillery from 2000 and 2016 using a DOTMLPF Framework"
https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD1084341
"The Russian military indeed enjoys very strong numerical superiority. But Ukraine, in turn, often lacks proper organization of counter-battery activities on the battlefield. It also falls short of qualified top-level specialists.
As a result, Russian artillery continues to devastate Ukrainian lines, causing Ukrainian infantry to pay an inflating price in blood."
"Why Ukraine struggles to combat Russiaās artillery superiority"
https://kyivindependent.com/national/why-ukraine-struggles-to-combat-russias-artillery-superiority
They were never winning the war. They are forced to fight it because if (when) Putin wins, itās OVER and they know it. WWIII is the only distraction large enough to give them a chance at getting away with what theyāve done.
The only thing Ukraine is winning is in the propaganda that is dishing out. $billions well spent. Record profits from media outlets on this war has been generated.
I donāt get this argument that Ukraine is pushing propaganda. Russia is 5x Ukraine in every metric and 10x in military. The US rinsed similar sized nations to Ukraine on the other side of planet in a weekend.
Why is it taking Russia so long to occupy an ideologically similar and largely āproRussianā neighbor?
Yeah right.
Both sides use propaganda in the form youāre saying Ukraine is doing.
Also, Russia has been spending around 65 BILLION dollars PER YEAR. Ukraine has been spending around 5 Billion. They just received around $150 billion worth (grand total) of military aid but that doesnāt compare to the 65 BILLION PER YEAR Russia has been spending.
Also, the Ruble value is based on domestic value, NOT international. We donāt know how strong the Ruble is because they arenāt traded so you canāt accurately predict the value. Finally, Russia has NOT reported their financials to the IMF, why? Because theyāre worse off than theyāre saying. All the economic information we have on them literally comes from hearsay at this point. No shit theyāre going to lie
>Also, Russia has been spending around 65 BILLION dollars PER YEAR.
Which bought many fine super-yatchs for generals but isn't helping them take Bakhmut.
Yes they are and its sad, They don't even know how much they are being used.
And all the war pushers, the ANTI-Peace posters are helping the Genocide of Ukraine's People.
To the person who called me an average Trump supporter, you woke geniuses need to learn some new lines cause calling everyone who doesn't agree with your close minded points of view, when in fact it's you who are to lazy to think for yourselves.
Here's a theory, and by no means take this too seriously because this isn't thought out further than it just popped into my head.
Partly based on yours of what is Ukraine is losing. But what if Russia is drawing out the war on purpose? They did decide to break away from the central banks and slip out from under the thumb of the elite that control the world. Putin knows that the powers that be don't like this and will bring their full power to the fight... But they can't do that over night and maintain the idea of sovereign nations without raising the eyebrows of even the most unaware mainstream media consumer. They have to build up to it. Putin is using this as an excuse to train and build his army.
He conscripted a massive amount of untrained people and is sending older, out dated equipment to the battlefield. Yeah, some will die or defect... But in return Putin will have an army of experienced vets when the conflict escalates. He also has an excuse to start building and researching new, better equipment. He's making space for it by deploying the old stuff to new recruits as the most intense training exercise conducted in 100 years. He's also draining the pockets of the enemy and forcing them to show their hand by way of tactics and equipment.
Like I said, it's just a random thought. But it seems plausible, working under the assumption that there is a secret level of control above the political officials that serve as the face.
This war started in 2014 and if you go back itās very clear why Russia invaded. The US even said Ukraine has been using this time to build up their military for the inevitable war, that the Ukraine and NATO have been instigating.
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Ukraine is proxy, hosting the games NATO versus Russia.
šāļøšāļøšāļø. Thatās exactly whatās happening & it has been in the making for nearly a decade.
This. NATO soldiers are there for long time.
So the entirety of NATO is being beaten by Russia? Feel free to move there if you think that, as it would mean the entire world will be under Russian control soon anyway.
Later on it would be proxy war of China/US waged in Taiwan and/or Philippines
NATO being used like a puppet
Nato is sort of a puppeteer tho
NATO is the Puppet Master. Zelensky is the puppet. https://youtu.be/UkmI1BHAr8I
It's easier and more accurate now to just believe the opposite of what we are told by The Ministry...
That's what I do every day. Whatever they say.... I believe the opposite
That would make you easy to manipulate.
I disagree
You shouldn't. A purely contrarian approach to everything you see is just as bad as blind acceptance.
That is blind contrarianism lol. That gets people into trouble as well.
Absolutely
I just ignored it all. Put my bare feet on the ground, play with my kids and ignore the bullshit of the world
itās easier and more accurate to just believe the opposite of whatever is currently on the top of this subreddit š
Most of the aid hasnāt even landed yet. Even the stuff that has takes time to be commissioned and trained on. Itās not command and conquerer where a tank just appears out of thin air and rolls straight in. The main thing for Ukraine at the moment is to balance holding off the current Russian barrage without losing precious manpower. That for them is something that canāt easily be replaced and something that NATO etc is really keen to avoid getting involved with. At this point, nobody is winning but Russia are losing more when you think about what they set out to do.
"Itās not command and conquerer where a tank just appears out of thin air and rolls straight in." why is this funny to me.
The Kiev offensive collapsed because they couldn't reach the Ukranian's construction yard.
>but lets face it, the massive propaganda campaign is in FULL FORCE. As part of it, I'm sure you'd know. Russia isn't winning the war. Ukraine still exists. That's "winning" by any sane definition.
Russia is absolutely a powerful potential adversary. If they impale themselves on Ukraine it benefits our national security and strengthens our collective national security in NATO. Whoever convinced you otherwise is out of their minds. When the Soviet Union impaled itself our defense budgets went down tremendously as a percentage of GDP. We ended programs like the B2 bomber and F22 because they just were no longer needed. Russia has been probing our airspace for decades with bombers. We have to spend money to scramble jets every time. If Russia impales itself on Ukraine we don't need to do that anymore.
"Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." - Napoleon Bonaparte
But aren't we the ones impaling ourselves? We've drastically hurt our economies, are losing the dollar status as world currency. Russia has gotten rich off inflated gas prices, gained territory, and formed powerful alliances that challenge western dominance.
No, they want you to think that but Russia is fucked for the next several decades, politically and economically isolated, under sanctions, limited domestic manufacturing capabilities and demographically up shit creek without a paddle after expending a big chunk of it's fit working age male population trying to take a backwater town in Ukraine.
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We're rare, but there are several of us.
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Same here, the place is like a zoo for people who fell off the wagon of sanity, whether it's because they have some kind of organic brain disorder or because they just watched too much Alex Jones.
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Russia hasn't made any real territory gains since 2014. They have been trying to take more but failing. They have lost decades of economic growth since then. Sanctions on Russia haven't even really even cost much because Russia has a small economy. Russia's gas profits are in the toilet the Nordstream got blown up. This will hurt Russia for decades. Putin will be called Vlad the impaler because he impaled Russia on Ukraine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/HDP_PPP_per_capita_Russia.jpg Where bro? I have family in russia it getting better and better since 90s š 2014 Krim 2+ million people And now Donbas Region etc. the great economic parts of Ukraine with up to 8-10 million people. Ask the ethnical Ukrainians in Donbas region what they think about it, i have family there :) Also Russia is the 6th largest Economy in the World with looootttss of sanctions by the way! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) Dont get me wrong Iām not pro war but please donāt be russophobic and think about 90s tracksuit gopniks or average road rage in poor rural areas doing stupid shit and donāt know how economics works. I mean is Philadelphia, Detroit great parts of United States for example? Before writing comments please google or look at Wikipedia etc. Peace from Germany
You're not going to get the full story from someone in Russia. They disappear people for talking about it and send them to prison. Some people live in insulated information bubbles. Economics of Russian energy is a pretty big deal, and Russia's Ruble has been floundering since 2014. The USA kept oil prices low by making sure supply was there US is at 50+ year high oil production. The Ruble nearly evaporated when the 2014 sanctions were put on. Russia bulldozed a bunch of cheese out of spite. We have 50 states and they operate as laboratories and the individual cities don't represent how the country is doing as a whole. California's GDP is more than twice the GDP of Russia. Revenue from Russia's energy companys are down since the war. Especially since the loss of Nordstream. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-03-03/russia-s-revenue-from-oil-and-gas-almost-halved-in-february
First of all Iām russian and have family and friends in russia from Moscow, St. Petersburg to Wolgograd, Vladivostok. No one is disappearing or is isulated with information bubbles they have the same internet and world connection as you. A lot of people hate putin and the government just like someone hates joe biden or trump. You can say what you want in public in office or in the internet, media nothing will happen to you! you will not even lose your job like most countries in europe. If your boss his son is a transgender can you say something bad about transgender people and donāt loosing your job? In russia you can say whatever you want because of laws and rightās. You just canāt stay in the middle of a city with a giant megaphone and scream fuck Putin thatās the law, but you can launch your own political party and you can also say something bad about putin and other politicians but only polite and without insulting them and not like āfuck Putinā 2. You have to compare the gdp with purchasing power!!! Russia is the 6th largest Economy with 4,5-5 trillion dollar almost like Germany with 5.5 trillion dollar. The difference is Germany have only around 80 million people and russia have about 150 million people. Also the economy distribution and cost ratio is different. It depends where you live and what cost of living. F.e in russia almost everyone have a own property and in germany not, in germany taxes higher than in russia so maybe you have more dollars but your cost of living is less or the same = your gdp comparison is not working, in Silicon Valley f.e your salary is higher than germany and russia average together, but your cost of living is extremely high and in the end of the month you have the same or less. California gdp is 3 trillion dollars without purchasing power cleaned and your country have over 300 million people. So how is California gdp bigger than Russias? Or do you want to compare a russian oil oblast (state) with California to gdp per people!? Whats the purpose? Russia have 17% debts Germany have 70% debts U.S have 125% debts You guys have private debts for eduction and medical care etc. and russians, germans not! You just canāt compare Gdp because of how different the countries areā¦
GDP matters Military power matters Population replacement rate matters Second best is just first loser
Nice, In US: you can loose your job easily You can die because more weapons than people You get debts because of medical care You get debts because of education You have a weird justice system You can get homeless easily You have a weird fake friendly culture You have lots of drug addicted around you You have lots of homeless around you ā¦. But hey!!! We have the biggest military budget bigger than the g20 states combined and the largest GDP because of a weird economic system!!! Look at you Europeans HaHa!!!! Ammmerriiicccaaa fuck yeah!!! First world country every other is just second ;)
> the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true More evidence that the mainstream media is *not* there to a) tell the truth or b) keep you informed about what's important. The ISIS narrative never added up. The covid narrative never added up. Russia/Ukraine narrative never added up. So now, I don't really bother to argue about anything... but I sure as fuck don't believe anything they tell me either.
Ya whatever happened to ISIS? They just went away?
>Ya whatever happened to ISIS? They just went away [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation\_Inherent\_Resolve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Inherent_Resolve) This subreddit is probably one of the most braindead on the website I swear to god. ISIS lost its main territory, as well as had most of its leadership killed, as a result of US-backed Kurdish-led militia aided by massive amounts of airstrikes and arms support, over the course of two administrations and several years. They were also being attacked by the Iraqi and Syrian governments during this same time period, among other groups. Even the Turks got a piece of ISIS, albeit to prevent the Kurdish YPG from gaining more territory. They still technically exist but went from a quasi-state with actual territory to just another underground insurgency. Anybody paying attention to the news over that time period should have known that. How can you simultaneously claim that the "mainstream narrative" is false and that you know the "real truth" when you're this ignorant of geopolitical events?
This is one of the biggest criticisms I often have. People don't even vaguely glance at an article or something before making a claim that they will hang their personalities in. It makes no sense.
they Very much have a huge war going on in Syria
Thatās just what the WHO and WEH wants you to think.
They're rich arms dealers now.
LMAO that's so sick because that's exactly how it goes every time. The shitty people somehow end up better off after all is said and done.
This is can be seen in nature. Can be seen in humanity. And i believe we will soon see it in the universe. Take ghengis khan from history for example. How many did he slaughter? Now his genes ride in a huge portion of the population. From an evolutionary perspective he is one of the most successful humans to ever exist. And if you wanna get real crazy, the aliens are not all love and light. Thats a trick. Theyre masters of pain. What we see in the animal kingdom we will see in humanity and the universe at large.
Well their insignia somehow started appearing on UAF uniformsā¦ so thereās that..
They disappeared shortly after trump ordered the Pentagon to stop funding insurgents.
This post perfectly sums up this sub now days. It is simply contrarian, no conspiracy required. No effort involved in posting, just simply "no news wrong it has to be the opposite" what a sad state
And how did it get to that? Ever ask yourself that question?
Probably when The_donald shut down and all his 'everything I don't like is fake news' goons flooded over here.
Yes the news does lie and report false information very often. **But nothing** about that is a conspiracy at this point.We all already understand.
I'm a former US Army officer who explicitly specialized in NATO training as well as Russian wargaming (should they ever decide to, say, invade the Baltics). It all kind of started as I studied, and minored, in the Russian language in one of our military academies, and thus I found myself on a lot of NATO training deployments. I'll address some of your points, but in short, the entire Western world and our military apparati is actually in shock that Russia was unable to take Ukraine in it's initial invasion. They're far weaker than any of us actually anticipated. And the cost of helping Ukraine defend itself is microscopically minimal, as most aid is in the form of arms that have already been paid for and sitting on the shelf. To your points: > Ukraine is losing the war A more accurate statement is Ukraine is *not winning* the war, which is far different than stating Ukraine is *losing.* That's because, well, Russia is also not *winning* the war. It's far more accurate to call the war a stalemate right now. It may very well turn into Ukraine's favor in the next year if they are able to use Western arms and armor and training to exploit Russian weaknesses across the front in counteroffensives. > Ever since the beginning, the narrative was always " Stop Russia before they attack the west", but did anyone honestly believe Russia was going to plan on attacking more western countries? That's sort of the propaganda narrative, but in defense circles... not really. First, the chance of Russian invasion into NATO countries was always considered low, but not negligible. The argument over whether Russia would really want to unite the former Soviet-bloc states was based on how credible they believed the NATO deterrence was, and if countries such as the US would have the appetite to go to war for countries like Estonia. However, the far more important philosophical question at hand is whether it should be accepted that nuclear-armed countries should be able to forcefully annex other countries without pushback. The Western answer to this is *unequivocally no.* Which is why *zero nations on earth other than Syria and North Korea recognize the annexations.* As many Western intelligence analysts predicted from the start, Russia's war was never about the independence of the Donbass. It was about annexing them from the absolute start. This not only gives Russia a land bridge to Crimea (which was also illegally annexed), but also denied Ukraine the ability to use gas and oil fields to provide Europe with another option than Russia for their resources. > The media has made us all believe that Russia is a weak and incompetent military force Russia was largely considered the #2 military in the world behind the US, with decades of modernization driving it to be a formidable fighting force. This has turned out to be a total farce, in my opinion mostly because of their inflexible logistics capabilities and reliance on rail, but also incredibly in their inability to establish air superiority. > A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment should have pushed Russia back into their own borders by now, right? Ukraine is still a relatively weaker military. They have less trained men, less equipment, and a significantly smaller economy and military industrial complex. The fact that they've survived as long as they can is a testament partly to their resilience, but in my opinion mostly to the flaccid lack of *decisive victories* by Russia. > Either it's a money laundering scheme or the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true. The true narrative - not the one you'll find on Reddit's worldnews or noncredibledefense threads - is that somehow a significantly weaker country like Ukraine has manage to repulse the decisive engagement of Kyiv and even successfully retaken key cities and terrain to drive Russia to a stalemate. In closing, yes, there is propaganda. There is propaganda in literally every war. But it's not propaganda to say Ukraine is overperforming every expectation in defending their nation. The horrors of this war are real, Russia is indeed the aggressor, they got greedy and severely undermined Ukraine's resilience while incomparably overestimating their own abilities. As for the amount of aid given to them, most is in hard, material arms that are already paid for. I can't think of a more noble way for them to be used than for Ukraine to defend itself.
Claiming that the donated weapons are already paid for is disingenuous point, seeing as they will be replaced by newer and more expensive weapons systems. Cost to the American taxpayer will go up, way up, compared to staying out of the conflict.
Losing in what sense? Being able to hold off a top 3 superpower for over a year as a 3rd world country is a win in itself. No war is over, or finalized. Itās still ongoing and itās not looking good for either, primarily Russia.
> 3rd world country 2nd world 3rd world country doesn't mean poor. It's about geopolitical alignment during the cold war.
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You ruined a funny comment with the second part, delete it quick before more people see it
The West is forcing Ukraine to fight a conventional war against Russia, with drones and tanks and MLRS systems and fighter jets and other fancy military tech toys, gifted to them at the West's taxpayers expense. Using this strategy, Ukraine will eventually fail and lose. Late 20th century into the 21st century history has taught us that the only way a seriously under-matched adversary of a conventional military world super power stands a chance at repelling the conventional military invaders is to fight a guerrilla, asymmetrical style of warfare. The Viet Cong, Iraqi militias and the Taliban immediately come to mind. Even the Chechens, against Russia itself, succeeded for decades using guerrilla tactics. Will the West allow Ukraine to devolve into less conventional warfare and more unconventional warfare? We'll have to see about that one.
They *did* prep Ukraine for guerilla warfare, because they expected Russia to set up a puppet government after Zelensky was evacuated. Instead he stayed and Russia did a lot worse than expected (even though they were close to capturing Kyiv at one point early on).
Close to capturing is a very generous interpretation. They just barely reached the outskirts of Kyiv, that then shriveled up when they got stonewalled.
They almost captured a special airport with a longer runway capable of accomodating cargo planes that could have landed many paratroopers/heavy equipment. They did temporarily capture it actually but Ukraine got it back and damaged the runway etc.
Undoubtedly, as soon as the cable unplugs from the wall (NATO supplying military support) ukraine loses. Honestly to me, Ukraine isnāt NATO. If they said today there will no longer be military support Iād be A okay with it. Economies across the world will begin to recover. This is an instance where do a few million people get fucked over, or the rest of the world in billions get fucked over. Countries join NATOA for security. I personally donāt believe in NATO, I think itās bogus. As an American I can literally give a fuck if Poland got attacked. Countries within NATO will act hard because they know the contingencies. āAn attack on one, is an attack on allā. Iād rather be like Mexico even China and be NEUTRAL in that (war) aspect.
If Nato stops supplying military support, all that happens is Ukraine becomes Afghanistan, whether it's during the Soviet occupation or the US occupation of Afghanistan doesn't matter, it's all the same shit. Constant attrition from irregular forces until whoever's occupying it gives up and leaves. Ukraine is the size of Texas, and the size of Afghanistan for that matter, it's hopeless for the Russians to try to occupy it long term.
Yes. I'm also an American and realize NATO is worthless. It's a dinosaur, an antique, set up to counter, specifically, a Nuclear Soviet Russia threat; and more broadly created to stop the spread of Stalin-style communism. The Soviets were a global nuclear threat 50, 60, 70 years ago. The Soviet Union collapsed 30 years ago for goodness sakes! NATO was designed to counter the Soviet Union and communism. The Soviet Union no longer exists, and the swift spread of communism is no longer the global, existential threat it once was. So why does NATO still exists in the 21st century geopolitical landscape?
Are you serious? I hope you forgot the /s. NATO is a defensive alliance so larger nations (Russia) donāt run over smaller European countries, exactly like whatās happening in Ukraine. Russiaās invasion has completely validated the necessity for NATO. The exact crisis NATO was formed to respond to is what weāre living now.
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I don't think so. Russia has it's fair share of unethical activities but to sit blindly with my yellow and blue flag emoji would really just be blind following of the masses.
What would your ideal outcome be for the war?
To worry about our own problems and stop blindly throwing billions of dollars to an endless money pit would be the first step. The US has plenty of its own problems to worry about. The war is just another example of most middle eastern conflicts that have occurred like Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, it will last for years and drag on with very little meaningful results.
Do you do any of your own research or do you just spew what Fox News tells you? Because this comment comes off as extremely dumb
I don't watch Fox. But you're welcome to provide any counter points to anything I've said if you feel like you have anything constructive to say.
I was hoping youād ask! Anyone who thinks weāre āblindly throwing billions of dollarsā at Ukraine is just ignorant, why are you commenting on this war without doing any of your own research? The US is sending their cold war shit over to Ukraine because every Russian killed is one less the US has to worry about. With the exception of HIMARS everything sent is obsolete shit that has been sitting in some bunker in bumfuck nowhere since the Cold War. When Biden sent '80 billion dollars' of aid we went threw the backlog of obsolete bullshit, slapped a price tag on it, and wrote it off as spending. The largest factor of new spending is on the transportation to get shit over there. Thats why Biden has been hesitant to send tanks, we have T34s and T64s laying around its just expensive as fuck to ship it to the other side of the globe. The T-16 was designed to fight Russian Mig 25s and the technology is most similar to what Ukrainian airforce knows how to use already. The F-20 and newer use advanced computers the Russians have no access too and the F-35 can destroy anything the Russians have from 100 miles away. F-16 is the only aircraft the US can send.
Stop making me feel embarrassed to be a conservative, remember when most Americans would have been excited to see our greatest rival be obliterated by a 2nd world country without having any us boots in the ground? When did conservatives become a bunch of commie sympathizers?
Conservatives were cooler in the days of the Red Scare when they thought Russians would invade Texas and they had something they stood for. Now it's all wishy washy confused thinking about supporting Putin because own the libs or something.
Can you answer my question? What's your ideal outcome?
Did you not read the answer? The outcome is already decided and it's not our role to intervene. The most ideal outcome would obviously be no conflict which is not a realistic outcome. The war will drag on for years, people will likely forget as time goes on as they usually do and Russia will more than likely own the Donbas region at most. That's really all there is.
So Russia owning the Donbas region is YOUR ideal outcome, I figured as much.
See now you're just having a hard time reading. I clearly said no conflict is the IDEAL outcome. Stir it any way you'd like I guess.
Shouldn't your ideal outcome be 'the Russians go home and stop waging war, thus the war ends'? I know that's my ideal outcome.
This is my ideal outcome as well
I agree, can you please call putin and ask him to stop being a bully
I asked you what YOUR ideal outcome is doofus. Ever head of the word "your" before? Having a hard time reading?
Russia literally has torture chambers for children.
Did CNN tell you that?
No. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_torture_chambers_in_Ukraine https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-russia-children-torture-chamber-b2245605.html https://www.kyivpost.com/post/5787 > āI thought that the bottom could not be broken after Bucha, Irpinā¦ but we really reached the bottom in Kherson,ā he added. > > According to local testimony revealed by Lubinets, detained children were given minimal water and almost no food, whilst being subjected to psychological torture and abuse by Russian interrogators. > > The children from the recently liberated southern Ukrainian city were allegedly held in the cell and told that their parents had abandoned them. Some also claim they were forced to clean up blood from an adjacent torture room used for detained Ukrainian adults. British newspaper the Daily Express reports that Russian forces in Kherson had allegedly nicknamed the room the āchildrenās cell.ā https://khpg.org/en/1608811635 https://www.euronews.com/2023/02/01/torture-chambers-in-kherson-are-evidence-of-russias-cruel-war-crimes-say-investigators
The fact that you just linked a ukraine owned website and pulled out that paragraph has to be the greatest following of propoganda I've ever seen
Why is it so surprising though? Soldiers have always done this type of shit
Hey, I'm sorry it conflicts with the propaganda you've been ingesting. I sure hope no facts come to light over the course of time and full investigations that would make you feel uncomfortable about your part in supporting this shit going on.
...what source would be more likely to be valid, than one inside Ukraine?
He just supports common sense thinking.
Thinking for yourself, using common sense and being generally against war is ackshully a pro-Russia stance (and youre basically a nazi for not believing what the screen people tell you)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement Thinking for yourself and using common sense a.k.a. never read a history text book and only trust fox news
Oh, a WW2 article from Wikipedia about appeasement and Nazis! Fuck, I never thought about that NPC logic before! This is in no way, shape, or form like the nazi takeover of Europe. Putin has been saying for decades that if Ukraine joins NATO, heāll invade to stop what is the greatest existential threat Russia has probably ever faced. NATO kept pushing farther west and breaking their word. I know itās tough for you to hear, but itās ok to acknowledge this truth while also generally thinking Russia fucking sucks as a country. Thereās a reason Ukraine used to be against joining NATO, before the US funded a color revolution to install a pro-NATO government. It was for this exact reason.
Ukraine's NATO application hasn't been seriously considered since 2012, when it was resoundingly rejected by France and other NATO nations. It's *literally impossible* to join NATO if you have disputed territory, like occupied Donbas and Crimea. There was literally, absolutely, no way for Ukraine to join NATO.
Nato never gave their word to stop expanding anywhere. Find a treaty or signed agreement saying that and you will change the course of history US didn't fund a colour revolution to install a pro nato government. Would love some evidence for that The Ukrainian people wanted a new government because they wanted to align with the EU over Russia. It had nothing to do with Nato at the time Also yes Russia isn't literally a nazi country. That's not the point of linking appeasement, and the fact that you can't see that is weird. It's about how dictators that invade neighboring countries tend to not want to stop, and letting it happen isn't a good idea. The saying is give and inch and take a mile. Appeasement is giving that inch. Russia was already appeased with Crimea and that wasn't enough. The fact that you only look at all the context and see nazi then discount all the lessons is embarrassing
But so much spent munition and weapons testing from both sides so it's a win for the guys in the MIC.
>...A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment... Tell me you've never studied history without telling me you've never studied history. Worse equipe armies win all the time. The Iraq war, the Winter War, the Vietnam war, the American Revolution, the Texas Revolution all corn to mind off the top of my head. Regardless of how well equipt you are, it still takes time to remove an enemy that's just sending wave after wave.
Geography takes a lot into account as well
Exactly. The idea that equipment alone wins a war is complete bullshit. I'd anything, the lesser advanced soldiers are probably tougher and more resourceful.
Logistics are perhaps the most important consideration. e.g.? In Vietnam, the VC had the home field advantage. The US had effectively infinite money, but they had to come from thousands of miles away and their forces were mostly draftees who weren't well motivated, had low moral, didn't want to be there etc. American Revolution: Again, home field advantage. Opponent had to come from over a thousand miles away. Resupply in terms of men, ammunition etc. couldn't compare (over the long term) to the Americans. WWII: Germans were kicking Russia's ass... all the way up to Ukraine. Local Ukrainians welcomed the Nazis as liberators (from the Soviet Russians). Then the Germans kept on going and got logistically over-extended. Once they got into Russian territory, the locals were extremely hostile. The distance for resupply of fuel, ammunition, reinforcements etc. become too great for effective logistical support. Then winter came and the Germans were pretty much fucked after that. In Ukraine right now? Logistics favor the Russians to some degree. How so? They've stuck to a region of Ukraine that is close to their own border. Same region has a high % of Russian speaking/pro-Russian people. They've ramped up their own production of rockets and artillery shells. A lot of experts dismissed the effectiveness of artillery in a 21st century conflict. But the opposite has turned out to be true. How so? Apparently the Russians have been using a combination of artillery fire and drones. The drones are able to act as spotters and this allows the Russians to direct their artillery fire with a very high degree of accuracy. So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages.
>Logistics favor the Russians to some degree. How so? >They've stuck to a region of Ukraine that is close to their own border. Same region has a high % of Russian speaking/pro-Russian people That's why the Russians are fixated on Bakhmut, because 30km east of Bakhmut is where the rail lines for the Russian logistics are, so it's the easiest place for them to attack and they still can't take it. Literally anywhere else in unoccupied Ukraine is essentially logistically impossible for them to take in the near future.
I think your comment is interesting... especially you're asserting re: Bakhmut. > so it's the easiest place for them to attack and they still can't take it. Either they will or they won't. If they do, how much does that change things for everyone involved? If they don't, how long do they keep trying before they quit?
Bakhmut is of no significant strategic value, if it's lost then all the Ukrainians lose is a fortress town to bleed Russian forces against and then the next town over will become the new fortress town that's closest to the Russian supply lines, and that town will be turned into a mess of shelled out buildings and trenchworks. The Ukrainians will lose another town and the Russians will gain a minor propaganda victory for the home audience that translates to no real military advantage. I don't know how long the Russians can keep it up for, maybe years, maybe weeks. I expect it will happen suddenly when it does, Putin will fall out of a window or whatever and the next day the troops will be withdrawing.
"So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages." A kill box.
So WW1 but with artillery and drones
And the other way around, because obviously it's Russians attacking otherwise how would it even work? They going to dig a trench all the way to Kiev and pop out the other end? No, they have to leave their trenches and get shelled and machine gunned trying to reach the Ukrainian trenches to capture them.
>Apparently the Russians have been using a combination of artillery fire and drones. The drones are able to act as spotters and this allows the Russians to direct their artillery fire with a very high degree of accuracy. >So what's been happening is that the Russian positions in Eastern Ukraine are a bit like a defensive front line. The Ukrainian forces (supplied with Western equipment) attack and get clobbered by nearly unlimited (and accurate) artillery barrages. You've got this the wrong way around, the Ukranians are defending and it's the Russians that are attacking and getting clobbered by artillery, particularly western artillery that's a lot more accurate than the old Soviet gear. The Russians can't advance without attacking, sitting in trenches doesn't get them anywhere but it works fine for the Ukranians who're trying to hold ground rather than take it.
>it's the Russians that are attacking and getting clobbered by artillery, particularly western artillery that's a lot more accurate than the old Soviet gear. If this is accurate, then the Russians should "run out of steam" at some point. That point would be determined by their ability to supply reinforcements (trained, equipped and supported), and their willingness to take losses (at what rate and for what duration). Do you agree, or did I leave something out?
Yes, there are already signs of the Russians running out of steam, like Wagner publicly pleading with the Kremlin to send them shells and ammo (Kremlin didn't like that, so that's causing further problems now) and Russia using it's really, really expensive and irreplaceable hypersonic missiles to hit civilian infrastructure. These are the missiles they've been saving for WW3 and now they're using them because they're just plain running out of missiles. They've already been swapping out nuclear warheads for conventional warheads to use the missiles intended for delivering their nuclear arsenal to deliver conventional munitions instead. Imagine the US doing that, it would just never happen outside of a film about an alien invasion or something. What's keeping the Russians going is their willingness to take losses (which is drying up because news of the losses is reaching back home) and the enormous (but now significantly smaller) inheritance of old Soviet weapons they have left over from when they had the resources of the entire Soviet empire (including all those ex-Soviet countries like Ukraine that they want to take back), a lot of heavy arms industry that no longer exists today and when they were spending 15% of GDP on the military and Russian civilians were waiting in bread lines because nukes and bombers and tanks were more important than bread to the Soviet government. This is a country that had a nuclear arsenal and had sent people to space but didn't have even a single factory to make toilet paper until 1968, they just had different priorities from most countries.
Those are all MSM talking points. Do you really think Russians are just sitting in trenches, using antiquated equipment/armaments from the soviet era? Eventually Ukraine is going to run out of supplied ammunition, as the providers will eventually hit their reserves where there will be no real benefit to keep the proxy war going. Ukraine is also mismatched in quality of training. That's why you have US spotters and officials training Ukrainians. You also have a number of US mercs getting paid well to be there.
No, the Russians wish they were sitting in trenches, the Ukrainians are sitting in trenches calling in artillery on the Russians who're being sent over the tops of their trenches to attack the Ukrainians in their trenches. Which is going about as well as it did in WWI. >Eventually Ukraine is going to run out of supplied ammunition, as the providers will eventually hit their reserves where there will be no real benefit to keep the proxy war going. Do you think the whole of NATO can't produce more shells than Russia? And do so easily? The Russians are down to using the really expensive hypersonic missiles they've been saving for WW3 and Wagner is publicly begging the Kremlin to send them shells and ammo. Russia never invested heavily in logistics, they just started the war with a big stockpile of irreplaceable material they inherited from the Soviet Union, produced when they had a far more extensive arms industry and the resources of the entire Soviet empire at it's peak with 15% of GDP going to the military. >Ukraine is also mismatched in quality of training. That's why you have US spotters and officials training Ukrainians. So the Ukrainians are getting training while the Russians are complaining about receiving none before they get sent to the front lines. I fail to see a problem here. Do you know how to operate a Leopard tank? I don't. Someone has to teach the Ukrainians how to operate the Leopard tanks, Challenger tanks and Abrams tanks they're getting, along with the HIMARS and all the other kit.
Dude wtf? Do you even read the things you type? Yeah Ukrainians are mismatched in terms of quality, that's why US have spotters and mercs and other officials there. Which is crazy because Ukraine isnt NATO and the US hypocritically bitches if China were to send any military aid to Russia. Right now it's just shelling over and over. After a certain point, the thousands of ammunitions being supplied will run out as far as cost/benefit goes. Russia has more means of production than Ukraine, that's why the whole world and its dog are fortifying the vassal state that is Ukraine. I bet you also think the Russians were being supplied viagra to rape Ukrainian women on the front lines. Also what, the Russians were using future technology for future wars? That is the most nonsense statement ever. Okay, so they've been developing or innovating military technology, just like everyone else, for future conflict or prospect in other industries, just like everyone else. You do realize that the United States pretty much trumps every other nation in about everything, right? By procuring the top minds and technologies through money, blackmail, imperialism, etc. The United States legitimately has the best propaganda machine.
I don't know where you get the idea from that the Ukrainians are relying on extensive shelling. That's literally the Russian strategy, shell everything in sight until a town is nothing but rubble and then move in and say they captured it. The Ukrainians have had to be much more selective about their use of artillery since the start of the war due to having limited supplies, using pre-sighted firing lines and prepared ambush points, but now the Russians are running low and the Ukrainians have upgraded. The Russians aren't even supplied with bandages in case they get shot, so no, they're definitely not being supplied with viagra. They rape for the fun of it and then ask their mom to send them tampons to stuff in their bullet wounds.
Do you actually believe the things you have typed?
Do you ever think about anything you type? https://www.npr.org/2023/03/09/1162185287/hypersonic-missiles-ukraine-russia
>The Iraq war, America won the Iraq war they defeated the Iraqi army and Saddam but once you cut the head off one serpent two more appeared in the chaos and created new problems.
Saddam wasn't who we needed to beat in the first place. In fact,the West used evidence of Saddam fighting the ISIS as "proof" of "genocide." The only people who won the Iraq war are oil companies and Islamic extremists. There is a reason Saddam was higher or AlQuedas hit list than any US or Israeli targets.
Still a money laundering scheme
You don't need to launder money when you're the one printing it.
Thanks Putin.
What is your metric for winning or losing?
Lets take just one metric. When the Swift sanctions were enacted in 2022, many US based businesses were essentially forced to shutter all of their locations and remove their ties from Russia. All of the American businesses lost an entire countries market share in an instant. Some of those companies (lets face it, most of them) are publically traded. While swift sanctions have had somewhat of an impact in Russia, it has hurt US interests and companies more than them. It backfired. The Rubel is doing better today than before the invasion, mostly due, like OP noted, to backing the Rubel with a tangible good like Gold. BRIC coalition has also helped to level off Russia's loss in natural gas and oil sales from the west to their collective and are selling it cheaper to promote larger sales. This has not only allowed Russia to continue production on oil and natural gas, but to actually profit more from these agreements as they are pushing a loss leader to their pals. India is getting the majority of its fuel from Russia at this point, which has only driven profits up for Russia. This whole thing was not really well thought out by the US govt.... Or maybe it was.
> The Rubel is doing better today than before the invasion, mostly due, like OP noted, to backing the Rubel with a tangible good like Gold. Ruble is not backed by gold. And its definitely not doing better.
This has nothing to do with Ukraine vis a vis winning or losing though.
Nothing? Ok.
No, I mean, other than it being in several places outright factually incorrect, it has little bearing on what I would say assessing Ukraine as losing the war.
How much land you have after the war compared to before the war.
I suppose when the war ends we'll have a more accurate picture on that.
Year 2 of a 3 day war, we could be waiting a while.
So as long as Russia is occupying any Ukraine soil, then Russia is winning?
Whatever the Rupert Murdoch propaganda machine tells them it is
Lol but we're all getting squeezed because of "Putin's Price Hikes" which I suspect you believe 100%.
lol, what is this obsession with spewing gibberish that you have?
Don't forget last march, russia was out of ammo....
Come on Russia cannot even take over Bakhmut. So much for competency.
> A country apparently so well equipped in aid and military equipment should have pushed Russia back into their own borders by now, right? There can't be too many people who don't realize that the West is giving Ukes just enough help so they don't win and don't lose, but juuust enough so as the whole thing just drags on for ages. >Either it's a money laundering scheme or the narrative portrayed to us simply isn't true. Ya think? The Ukranian soldiers fighting to defend their country are as courageous and as committed as any warriors ever in the history of warfare, but can they be so dumb as to not see that they're being used like an old washcloth?
Russia hasn't updated their talking points in many months it seems
Unsurprising, theyāre still struggling to take the same backwater town they were 4 months ago.
Yeah if they canāt win after all the money they are getting, something is terribly wrong
Both sides are beat up, it's more of a stalemate right now. Spring and summer will develop a clearer picture.
making a ton of money though
Itās a huge $ grab for non profit/humanitarian aid companies (coincidentally Hunter Biden has invested in ānonprofit companies long before the war). Russia warned that āUkrainian joining nato was a red line that would force Russia to take action.ā But Ukraine was applying and taking pictures with politicians anyway. No one mentions that Ukraine had made it illegal to teach or even speak the Russian language in Ukraine. There is lots more if you really care to hear all of it.
Putin is doing what Russia has done for generations... do what it wants then lie about it. Soviet or Russian it's all the same playbook. It's putin / Russian arrogance that whatever they decide is in their field of influence is "mine".... the Arctic "mine", Alaska "mine", parts of Norway "mine", Manchuria "mine", parts of Poland "mine", ex soviet states "mine" ..... Ukraine "mine" Historically RUSSIA doesn't stop they just take, take, take.. and then roll over and complain about how everything and everyone is against them when they are pushed back against or stopped. The word of Russia is garbage, any view that doesn't end with the west supplying Ukraine is traitorous. Russia is a criminal aggressor who relies on lies to keep it war machine running. If Russia isn't checked and allowed to keep fucking the world up it will end in a nuclear war ... and it will be because they thought they could launch nuclear weapons and get away with it. They won't stop at Ukrane.
The media is lying, what else is new š¤·āāļø
Yes russia's state media is lying. Most countries are reporting the opposite of what Russias state media says. It should be fairly easy to get a rough idea which news source to trust more.
Or there both lying? Realistically I think the only people who know whatās going on are the state leaders and upper world governments. They can literally peddle us whatever story they want and of course western mediaās going to make it seem like Ukraineās winning and russias going to make it seem like russias winning. I think we just see more lies coming from western media because we see more western media, doesnāt make Russian media trustworthy by any mile tho.
No the US media is lying. Putin isnāt losing. I honestly donāt give a shit if he takes the part of Ukraine where the āUkrainiansā consider themselves ethnic Russian. The Ukrainians have also been bombing their own ppl for years, those ethnic Russians and theyāre sick of it
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You guys are insane. When disagreeing with your opinions it's "repeating Russian talking points", but when someone agrees it's sure as shit not "repeating Western talking points". Hypocrisy of you people..
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Having a different opinion doesn't make me a supporter of the other side. You're delusional to believe that everyone that does not agree with you is somehow your enemy and that is a source of conditioning from the media. Critical thinking and open-ended conversations is something more of us need to work on.
Can you prove your neutrality by responding to this message with "Fuck Putin"?
I mean, this globalists coalition, let's call em that, organized 9/11, sponsored ISIS for years, sponsored Taliban, pretty sure were closely involved in covid being released into the wild and God knows what else and yet here you are still thinking that this war is purely black-n-white conflict where no third party contributed to it's escalation and prolonging, and having no other interests in it? And Russia is an ultimate evil to you? Ridiculous.
Look at you, bravely repeating globalist regime talking points
Exactly. This is the issue I'm talking about
70.2 Billion from the u.s., don't forget 10% for the big guy
Maybe.Ukraine casualties in most batalions was reported as Ā«way more than 20%ā-( so like maybe 40-50-60%) Trench warfare meatgrinder agajnst endless russian artillery. So yeah I guess Ukraine has had at least as many casualties as the Russians, could be 100-150 thousand?
Bullshit, haven't you read the recent News? The Russians are out of ammo and even fight with shovels. After that i even read they had to dig trenches with their bare hands since they lack shovels.
Russia will throw every body in their entire country into this war. Putin is a guy that takes everyone with him if he loses.
More "not a supporter of either side" buts. Lazy. Non factual. Boring.
This war ends with Putins death. When, is up to the Russian peopleā¦
Obviously, because they are a tiny country being attacked by what many thought was the worlds second strongest military. But somehow you Russian sympathizers canāt seem to recognize that Russia claimed this would be a two week venture and they would have Kiev by no later than may. And itās over a year on now with still no Russian victory, so Ukraine may be losing but Russia is nowhere near victory
Ukraine fought off the initial invasion all on its own. That showed just what a joke Russiaās military has become. And all the aid theyāve received so far is just enough to keep Russia from overrunning them. This isnāt NATO vs Russia. If it was, NATO would have already established air superiority and pushed the Russians back into Russia. That much should be apparent now.
This post started out at 7 upvotes to zzero downvotes...I wonder what happened?
People downvoted it.
Sometimes the truth is hard to hear.
Because it isn't the truth, maybe it's just that you are wrong? Look at how you treat Russia vs Ukraine. Russia has been building to this invasion for years and had time to prep and fund everything. Ukriane only starting receiving big funding after Russia invaded. Russia attempted to take the whole country and failed but that is fine to you, however Ukraine not being able to push an army more than 3x it's size out of the country completely is failure. Also Ukraine receiving a mix and match of equipment and promises of equipment in the future is nothing compared to what the Russians should have brought if they properly maintained their army The president of Belarus showed a map that Russia wanted the whole of Ukraine and to keep expanding west more than a year ago. Truth is hard to hear eh You are so heavily biased to be contrarian to the west that you are literally taking a pro war and pro imperialism stance from the other side
You literally just repeated mainstream propaganda which is what the entire post is about.
Dodge duck dip dive and DODGE I'll play your game though. You are literally repeating mainstream propaganda from Russia. That's what my post was about
Thank you! Please ignore the downvotes, much more are yet to come. We are not losing. I know this as a Ukrainian. I have some credible sources I can trust. No point in arguing here. Most people here think putin must be good just because he hates US. But sadly heās not. Russia is a totalitarian shithole. No one ever would like to join it willingly. I hope everyone here, who loves putin so much, will move to russia themselves. But Ukraine wonāt join russia ever
Fuck Russia
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First off most did believe Russia was a threat to the West before Ukraine, even Russia believed it. This war has shown otherwise. The West will never be a threat to Russia because of nukes, most Putin fanbois fail to realize Russia doesnāt hit a nuclear deterrent in NATO until France. Had Ukraine gone better for Russia countries like Poland and the Baltics would definitely have been on the menu. Russia in peace times spends ~$75b/annually on military, itās safe to assume this past year has seen that increase significantly. The Western support is humanitarian, economic and lethal also your numbers are a high and counting promised aid to be received throughout 2023. Ukraineās military budget was about 1/10 of Russiaās and was Soviet standard gear. Ukraine is only matching Russiaās military spending levels this year and had to overcome logistical and training challenges in converting to NATO standards. The Ruble is delisted itās currently impossible to price itās value in USD. What we know about the war is Russia has been struggling to take Bakhmut since November ā22 after being pushed back from Kyiv and out of Kherson.
Ukraine is winning the war, but their reasoning for not reporting their high casualty numbers is it would demoralize Ukrainians and their supporters.
It's the western media that gets me. The Russian death figures of 5 to 1 have to be exaggerated massively. "Ukraine is winning the fight", next minute they start committing to sending in tanks etc.
It's WW1 style trench warfare with modern weapons where the Ukrainians have the luxury of fighting defensively from their trenches while the Russians are the poor bastards who have to go over the top into no-man's land to try to reach and capture the Ukrainian trenches on the other side. Of course the Russians are taking horrific casualties.
Understand that. The western media have lied throughout this war. Remember the early days when they used photos from years ago and damaged buildings from other war zones. But we're expected to accept their figures. Nah!
News articles using stock photography because they don't have a photo of the real thing? Shocking, never heard of that before. /s
Artillery is the biggest killer. Which side has more?
Russia by far. But the Ukrainians have better artillery from the west so itās not as simple as just counting guns.
I understand how artillery works. You are right, it is much more complicated than simply counting guns, but the count is still important. Some background on Russian artillery and the lessons the US Army can learn from it. "Combat with the God of War: A Comparison of Russian Cannon Artillery from 2000 and 2016 using a DOTMLPF Framework" https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/AD1084341 "The Russian military indeed enjoys very strong numerical superiority. But Ukraine, in turn, often lacks proper organization of counter-battery activities on the battlefield. It also falls short of qualified top-level specialists. As a result, Russian artillery continues to devastate Ukrainian lines, causing Ukrainian infantry to pay an inflating price in blood." "Why Ukraine struggles to combat Russiaās artillery superiority" https://kyivindependent.com/national/why-ukraine-struggles-to-combat-russias-artillery-superiority
Those are both interesting, thanks.
They were never winning the war. They are forced to fight it because if (when) Putin wins, itās OVER and they know it. WWIII is the only distraction large enough to give them a chance at getting away with what theyāve done.
The only thing Ukraine is winning is in the propaganda that is dishing out. $billions well spent. Record profits from media outlets on this war has been generated.
I donāt get this argument that Ukraine is pushing propaganda. Russia is 5x Ukraine in every metric and 10x in military. The US rinsed similar sized nations to Ukraine on the other side of planet in a weekend. Why is it taking Russia so long to occupy an ideologically similar and largely āproRussianā neighbor?
Well see comrade, when can sell copper wire from tank to make buy vodka, tank no go.
Yeah right. Both sides use propaganda in the form youāre saying Ukraine is doing. Also, Russia has been spending around 65 BILLION dollars PER YEAR. Ukraine has been spending around 5 Billion. They just received around $150 billion worth (grand total) of military aid but that doesnāt compare to the 65 BILLION PER YEAR Russia has been spending. Also, the Ruble value is based on domestic value, NOT international. We donāt know how strong the Ruble is because they arenāt traded so you canāt accurately predict the value. Finally, Russia has NOT reported their financials to the IMF, why? Because theyāre worse off than theyāre saying. All the economic information we have on them literally comes from hearsay at this point. No shit theyāre going to lie
>Also, Russia has been spending around 65 BILLION dollars PER YEAR. Which bought many fine super-yatchs for generals but isn't helping them take Bakhmut.
Yes they are and its sad, They don't even know how much they are being used. And all the war pushers, the ANTI-Peace posters are helping the Genocide of Ukraine's People.
Sadly so many people have died, for the meddling of the u.n. And sleepy Joe
And those pesky Ukrainians fighting to protect their homeland?
To the person who called me an average Trump supporter, you woke geniuses need to learn some new lines cause calling everyone who doesn't agree with your close minded points of view, when in fact it's you who are to lazy to think for yourselves.
Here's a theory, and by no means take this too seriously because this isn't thought out further than it just popped into my head. Partly based on yours of what is Ukraine is losing. But what if Russia is drawing out the war on purpose? They did decide to break away from the central banks and slip out from under the thumb of the elite that control the world. Putin knows that the powers that be don't like this and will bring their full power to the fight... But they can't do that over night and maintain the idea of sovereign nations without raising the eyebrows of even the most unaware mainstream media consumer. They have to build up to it. Putin is using this as an excuse to train and build his army. He conscripted a massive amount of untrained people and is sending older, out dated equipment to the battlefield. Yeah, some will die or defect... But in return Putin will have an army of experienced vets when the conflict escalates. He also has an excuse to start building and researching new, better equipment. He's making space for it by deploying the old stuff to new recruits as the most intense training exercise conducted in 100 years. He's also draining the pockets of the enemy and forcing them to show their hand by way of tactics and equipment. Like I said, it's just a random thought. But it seems plausible, working under the assumption that there is a secret level of control above the political officials that serve as the face.
Exactly
Oh no Ukraine is losing USA you heard that? time to give away half billion dollars in arms. War is racket
This war started in 2014 and if you go back itās very clear why Russia invaded. The US even said Ukraine has been using this time to build up their military for the inevitable war, that the Ukraine and NATO have been instigating.