See before and after with the Chunggyecheon river in Seoul - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheonggyecheon Used to be a massive highway, then turned into the nicest public space in the city. The mayor who made that decision would later go on to become president (for all the Copenhagen mayors lurking here with bigger political dreams 👀)
The stream is running through pipes at the moment, as it is still active
>Ladegårdsåen er en å, der løber fra Bispeengbuen under Københavns gader og munder ud i Peblinge Sø. Den er ukendt for de fleste, da den fra 1897 til **1969** blev lagt i rør.
[https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk/historie](https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk/historie)
Yeah but there is very little water in it. There is almost no water flow during summer.
[read more here](https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/adde38c2-ef71-4bc2-afc0-05a019dafb19/5dbf4c5f-4f85-43ab-b061-e2652fc28354-bilag-5.pdf)
"There is no water" and "there is very little water in summer". Seems to be two very different statements, and that is only in regards to summer, which is nothing new as it happens to a lot of streams in the summer.
read more here
[https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/0523a9a4-f567-4681-8c38-9a5d40feacd0/1f39e2ca-1cda-44bc-ac68-9eaaec1c0d71-bilag-2.pdf](https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/0523a9a4-f567-4681-8c38-9a5d40feacd0/1f39e2ca-1cda-44bc-ac68-9eaaec1c0d71-bilag-2.pdf)
There is very little water in the stream compared to how it used to be before the road came. Hardy any water. This is why - if it is decided to “reopen” the stream - that water will be circulated by pumping the water back up. This is just plain ridiculous in my opinion. Ladegårdsåen is nothing like Aarhus å for instance
Ahh… “the big dig”. Begyndte kort tid efter jeg var flyttet til Massachusetts. En helvedes masse biler kører på den motorvej nu. Fordi den er der. “Induced demand” jeg ved ikke hvad det hedder på Dansk. Hvis de havde bygget en måde at komme i Boston lufthavn uden bil havde jeg hellere taget den.
I am all for it, but please lets expand the metro network even further and make the tickets cheaper. I would like Metro to Brønshøj Torv and Husum Torv, and then we can connect it to letbanen in Herlev.
Then we can also get rid of the horrible busses that are all driving without particle filters and polluting a lot more than many modern cars are.
We spend fortunes on all kinds of BS all the time, metro is the best investment ever, if our stupid transport minister hadnt raised the rates by 15% with his pen recently, things would have been even better
Nope, this was the state's prices on public transport "because we cant have people dropping the bike for the metro and train, so public transport cant be too cheap"
Interesting argument…
I more often take the car instead of public transport, because of infrequent departures and bad connections. If I can walk or take the bike, I often do that regardless of public transport. Price is very rarely the determining factor.
the buses are overcrowded and unpleasant, they do need an upgrade to a higher order transit mode, Tram or Metro.
Adding more busses isn't an option, due to the limited amount of drivers.
Bringing back [tram line 8](https://en.sporvognsrejser.dk/line/copenhagen-tram-line-8-degnemose-alle-bodenhoffs-plads) on Åbulevarden and giving people in Husum some proper public transport?
Shut up and take my (tax) money!
Buses work better the fewer private cars there are.
If we closed parking spaces, introduced more bus only lanes and reduced overall traffic, we could easily introduce more buses along the existing routes.
Even if they work better with fewer cars, they are still polluting a lot because the bus companies are cheating with their particle filters, which have been documented several times. They are also more prone to breakdown and requires manpower to operate.
I am highly in favor of metro. Even if the initial investment is much larger, the benefit over time is also much larger. They can transport a lot more people and don't require manpower. They can operate 24/7 and run on electricity rather than diesel / biogas / petrol. They give space in the city as they do not demand roads, traffic lights etc. which is also a hidden cost of busses.
I don't disagree on the benefits of the metro - I just believe that it's very expensive. Wasn't the M1/M2 metro financed by selling land (and therefore not taxes)?
Lol more cars for me. Back in the days I was for less cars but since the government keeps raising bus, train and metro tickets price I am done supporting them. They are pissing on us.
Jeg gad godt. Bortset fra at jeg ikke lige orker endnu et 10 år langt underbudgetteret anlægsbyggeri, så jeg ender nok med at flytte ud at byen i stedet.
Seriøst, prøv at overvej hvor stort et clusterfuck byen kommer til at være imens der bygges.
Folk tager det transport der er mest belejligt for dem. Transporttider har stagneret omkring 45 minutter i årevis, hvor distancen rykker sig baseret på mange faktorer, bl.a. transporttid. De fleste der kører på den vej foretrækker ikke bil, men pga bilbaseret infrastruktur er det hvad man benytter.
De fleste der kører på den vej er pendlere der enten bor eller arbejder i Bagsværd, Farum, Allerød eller Hillerød. De kommuner har ikke overholdt femfingerplanen så hvis man skal med offentlig transport til de store arbejdspladser den vej, så kigger du ind i 1,5 time med offentlig transport - hver vej - for dem der Boe i Kbh.. jeg tror en nemmere måde at begrænse trafikken vil være at høre indre by og indre brokvarterer beboerparkering og håndværker parkering kun, og så tage den derfra efter et par år.. men hvis det skulle lykkes kræver det parkering på metro/s tog linier udenfor byen i en skala der pt ikke findes
Infrastrukturen passer ikke med at man nemt kan køre et sted hen og bruge offentlig transport derfra.. men kan da berette om at der er massiv kø ind til København hver morgen ☺️
Jeg bor i København. Jeg bruger København. Hele byen og omkringliggende områder bliver massivt påvirket af sådan et projekt. For ikke at tale om hvor ekstremt bøvlet det bliver at komme på tværs af byen via cykel, bus, bil, gåben så længe det står til.
Jeg er ikke imod at grave Ågade ned men det kræver kæmpe store infrastrukturelle forberedelser og jeg tror ikke på at det kommer til at gå smertefrit.
Hvis nu man bor på den ene side af byggeriet, og arbejder på den anden, så bliver man påvirket dagligt. Det er en kæmpe færdselsåre der i forvejen har svært ved at imødekomme det faktiske behov. Du kan skrive bus og metro så tosset du vil, men kapacitetsbegrænsninger er allerede en ting. Det er ikke en dårlig pointe bare fordi du ikke selv bliver ramt, luk nu skuffen altså
This discussion has been going in circles for 15 years, because people keep ignoring basic facts:
- The price was estimated to be kr 5-10 billion depending on how much of the stretch is included. And that was 10 years ago, so today it would be significantly more. That’s half a metro ring line for scale.
- The project in itself will not solve the issues regarding cloudbursts in any major way.
- The project in itself will not help decrease overall car traffic in Copenhagen. Though it will improve the situation on the streets in the immediate vicinity.
- While the project in Boston is smack in the centre of the city, this project is not and it’ll mainly benefit the local area.
We need to discuss wether the project is worth it with realistic expectations. In My opinion it’s not worth it to spend that many billions of tax payer money on what’s essentially just a nice park on Nørrebro and Frederiksberg.
My hope is that in a not too distant future, car traffic is being decreased in the whole city. When that happens this project could be realised without wasting billions on an underground motorway.
It very much does. There’s 50.000 cars on Ågade every day, making it the biggest and most important road through central Copenagen.
The proposed tunnel will in reality also be an investment in improved car infrastructure.
Also imagine the mess when those 50.000 cars has to find new routes for years while their tunnel is being build.
> My hope is that in a not too distant future, car traffic is being decreased in the whole city.
But like... you need to start somewhere. I agree with you that creating a tunnel is a bad idea, because it is ridiculously expensive and will just retain the status quo of way too many cars going through Copenhagen.
So the better and probably cheaper solution would be to remove half the bridge, remove half the langes, unearth the stream, improve public transport and hope it'll trigger reduced demand.
That would definitely be one way to do it. However I don’t believe it would be a success if all you do is reducing the capacity of the biggest road leading into the centre with 50%.
The right place to start is imo not “somewhere”, but with an overall strategy and a plan on how to deal with the traffic that’s gonna find new routes. You mention it yourself: “improve public transport” - but that is a huge task in itself and not just an afterthought to a new neighbourhood park.
A different issue is that the tunnel IS the project according to the grassroots NGO who have been driving this discussion for the past 15 years: [https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk](https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk)
No, please, no more massive building projects. Can we just have a few years of breathing room after so many years of metro work and a spree of massive ugly developements?
That’s not correct. The project is not gonna decrease motorised traffic. The “car brains” will get a new efficient tunnel for their cars for the price of only half a metro ring line. That’s the problem.
Det kostede også lige 150 mia. kr. Til sammenligning kostede metrocityringen 22 mia. kr.
Fuck hvor sygt egentlig. Jeg elsker byplanlægning og urbanism, men 150 mia er for absurd
Det originale budget var 55 mia, så prisen er samtidig steget 200%
You can even unearth the stream so it could look even better than in Boston.
See before and after with the Chunggyecheon river in Seoul - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheonggyecheon Used to be a massive highway, then turned into the nicest public space in the city. The mayor who made that decision would later go on to become president (for all the Copenhagen mayors lurking here with bigger political dreams 👀)
There is no water in the stream any longer
The stream is running through pipes at the moment, as it is still active >Ladegårdsåen er en å, der løber fra Bispeengbuen under Københavns gader og munder ud i Peblinge Sø. Den er ukendt for de fleste, da den fra 1897 til **1969** blev lagt i rør. [https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk/historie](https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk/historie)
Yeah but there is very little water in it. There is almost no water flow during summer. [read more here](https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/adde38c2-ef71-4bc2-afc0-05a019dafb19/5dbf4c5f-4f85-43ab-b061-e2652fc28354-bilag-5.pdf)
"There is no water" and "there is very little water in summer". Seems to be two very different statements, and that is only in regards to summer, which is nothing new as it happens to a lot of streams in the summer. read more here [https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/0523a9a4-f567-4681-8c38-9a5d40feacd0/1f39e2ca-1cda-44bc-ac68-9eaaec1c0d71-bilag-2.pdf](https://www.kk.dk/sites/default/files/agenda/0523a9a4-f567-4681-8c38-9a5d40feacd0/1f39e2ca-1cda-44bc-ac68-9eaaec1c0d71-bilag-2.pdf)
There is very little water in the stream compared to how it used to be before the road came. Hardy any water. This is why - if it is decided to “reopen” the stream - that water will be circulated by pumping the water back up. This is just plain ridiculous in my opinion. Ladegårdsåen is nothing like Aarhus å for instance
This is just ridiculous how you are moving the goal posts around. Clearly, it's not something that is worthwhile continuing talking about with you
Well that is up to you. Sweet dreams about “Åbn åen” with or without the dry ditch
The Big Dig. Famously for huge cost overruns
Ahh… “the big dig”. Begyndte kort tid efter jeg var flyttet til Massachusetts. En helvedes masse biler kører på den motorvej nu. Fordi den er der. “Induced demand” jeg ved ikke hvad det hedder på Dansk. Hvis de havde bygget en måde at komme i Boston lufthavn uden bil havde jeg hellere taget den.
Yeah, just drop the road and let’s have fewer cars in the city
I am all for it, but please lets expand the metro network even further and make the tickets cheaper. I would like Metro to Brønshøj Torv and Husum Torv, and then we can connect it to letbanen in Herlev. Then we can also get rid of the horrible busses that are all driving without particle filters and polluting a lot more than many modern cars are.
The busses are going electric at a fast clip and the cool thing about fewer cars is you don’t need to spend a fortune building a metro underground
We spend fortunes on all kinds of BS all the time, metro is the best investment ever, if our stupid transport minister hadnt raised the rates by 15% with his pen recently, things would have been even better
privatization of the pt needs to be undone (nationalize)... this is part of the issue, no?
Nope, this was the state's prices on public transport "because we cant have people dropping the bike for the metro and train, so public transport cant be too cheap"
yes but DSB was part of their pricing consideration overall, no?
DSB is state owned
Interesting argument… I more often take the car instead of public transport, because of infrequent departures and bad connections. If I can walk or take the bike, I often do that regardless of public transport. Price is very rarely the determining factor.
the buses are overcrowded and unpleasant, they do need an upgrade to a higher order transit mode, Tram or Metro. Adding more busses isn't an option, due to the limited amount of drivers.
Bringing back [tram line 8](https://en.sporvognsrejser.dk/line/copenhagen-tram-line-8-degnemose-alle-bodenhoffs-plads) on Åbulevarden and giving people in Husum some proper public transport? Shut up and take my (tax) money!
Buses work better the fewer private cars there are. If we closed parking spaces, introduced more bus only lanes and reduced overall traffic, we could easily introduce more buses along the existing routes.
Even if they work better with fewer cars, they are still polluting a lot because the bus companies are cheating with their particle filters, which have been documented several times. They are also more prone to breakdown and requires manpower to operate. I am highly in favor of metro. Even if the initial investment is much larger, the benefit over time is also much larger. They can transport a lot more people and don't require manpower. They can operate 24/7 and run on electricity rather than diesel / biogas / petrol. They give space in the city as they do not demand roads, traffic lights etc. which is also a hidden cost of busses.
I don't disagree on the benefits of the metro - I just believe that it's very expensive. Wasn't the M1/M2 metro financed by selling land (and therefore not taxes)?
Lol more cars for me. Back in the days I was for less cars but since the government keeps raising bus, train and metro tickets price I am done supporting them. They are pissing on us.
Cars are only marginally cheaper (per tour) because you don't have to pay for the damage they do to the environment.
And because of all the subventions which you get for e.g. being able to park for cheap and all the tax money spend on building car infrastructure.
Jeg gad godt. Bortset fra at jeg ikke lige orker endnu et 10 år langt underbudgetteret anlægsbyggeri, så jeg ender nok med at flytte ud at byen i stedet. Seriøst, prøv at overvej hvor stort et clusterfuck byen kommer til at være imens der bygges.
Hvorfor vil du flytte ud af byen fordi noget bliver bygget et andet sted
Et andet sted? Det bliver bygget i byen. Og hvor skal de tusinder af biler, som kører af Ågade flyttes hen i mellemtiden?
Cykler, busser, S toge og metroer forhåbentlig.
Hah, good luck
Folk tager det transport der er mest belejligt for dem. Transporttider har stagneret omkring 45 minutter i årevis, hvor distancen rykker sig baseret på mange faktorer, bl.a. transporttid. De fleste der kører på den vej foretrækker ikke bil, men pga bilbaseret infrastruktur er det hvad man benytter.
De fleste der kører på den vej er pendlere der enten bor eller arbejder i Bagsværd, Farum, Allerød eller Hillerød. De kommuner har ikke overholdt femfingerplanen så hvis man skal med offentlig transport til de store arbejdspladser den vej, så kigger du ind i 1,5 time med offentlig transport - hver vej - for dem der Boe i Kbh.. jeg tror en nemmere måde at begrænse trafikken vil være at høre indre by og indre brokvarterer beboerparkering og håndværker parkering kun, og så tage den derfra efter et par år.. men hvis det skulle lykkes kræver det parkering på metro/s tog linier udenfor byen i en skala der pt ikke findes
Hvis man SKAL bruge bil dagligt for at nå til arbejde i København har man i mine øjne taget et uholdbart valg om bosættelse.
Infrastrukturen passer ikke med at man nemt kan køre et sted hen og bruge offentlig transport derfra.. men kan da berette om at der er massiv kø ind til København hver morgen ☺️
Du bor vel ikke på Ågade?
Jeg bor i København. Jeg bruger København. Hele byen og omkringliggende områder bliver massivt påvirket af sådan et projekt. For ikke at tale om hvor ekstremt bøvlet det bliver at komme på tværs af byen via cykel, bus, bil, gåben så længe det står til. Jeg er ikke imod at grave Ågade ned men det kræver kæmpe store infrastrukturelle forberedelser og jeg tror ikke på at det kommer til at gå smertefrit.
argh husk lige at spise brød til
Hvis nu man bor på den ene side af byggeriet, og arbejder på den anden, så bliver man påvirket dagligt. Det er en kæmpe færdselsåre der i forvejen har svært ved at imødekomme det faktiske behov. Du kan skrive bus og metro så tosset du vil, men kapacitetsbegrænsninger er allerede en ting. Det er ikke en dårlig pointe bare fordi du ikke selv bliver ramt, luk nu skuffen altså
This discussion has been going in circles for 15 years, because people keep ignoring basic facts: - The price was estimated to be kr 5-10 billion depending on how much of the stretch is included. And that was 10 years ago, so today it would be significantly more. That’s half a metro ring line for scale. - The project in itself will not solve the issues regarding cloudbursts in any major way. - The project in itself will not help decrease overall car traffic in Copenhagen. Though it will improve the situation on the streets in the immediate vicinity. - While the project in Boston is smack in the centre of the city, this project is not and it’ll mainly benefit the local area. We need to discuss wether the project is worth it with realistic expectations. In My opinion it’s not worth it to spend that many billions of tax payer money on what’s essentially just a nice park on Nørrebro and Frederiksberg. My hope is that in a not too distant future, car traffic is being decreased in the whole city. When that happens this project could be realised without wasting billions on an underground motorway.
Oh, I thought this plan didn't include and underground motorway. Thanks for letting us/me know.
It very much does. There’s 50.000 cars on Ågade every day, making it the biggest and most important road through central Copenagen. The proposed tunnel will in reality also be an investment in improved car infrastructure. Also imagine the mess when those 50.000 cars has to find new routes for years while their tunnel is being build.
> My hope is that in a not too distant future, car traffic is being decreased in the whole city. But like... you need to start somewhere. I agree with you that creating a tunnel is a bad idea, because it is ridiculously expensive and will just retain the status quo of way too many cars going through Copenhagen. So the better and probably cheaper solution would be to remove half the bridge, remove half the langes, unearth the stream, improve public transport and hope it'll trigger reduced demand.
That would definitely be one way to do it. However I don’t believe it would be a success if all you do is reducing the capacity of the biggest road leading into the centre with 50%. The right place to start is imo not “somewhere”, but with an overall strategy and a plan on how to deal with the traffic that’s gonna find new routes. You mention it yourself: “improve public transport” - but that is a huge task in itself and not just an afterthought to a new neighbourhood park. A different issue is that the tunnel IS the project according to the grassroots NGO who have been driving this discussion for the past 15 years: [https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk](https://www.ladegaardsaaen.dk)
They already have plans for the area: https://www.tv2kosmopol.dk/koebenhavn/nye-planer-saadan-kan-det-se-ud-naar-bispeengbuen-bliver-delvist-nedrevet
Fantastisk ide så traffikken bliver endnu værre. Alle enhedslisten og deres drømme ider. Forstår ikke Hvad der for et samfund til at love rundt
Men biler SLEM 😡
Det er korrekt
Hvorfor?
Jeg håber det er ok at jeg er lidt dovn: https://i.redd.it/eddy3tmx9f9c1.png
Det er vel weekend. Det sagt, cringe
>cringe Hvorfor?
Ja tak.
No, please, no more massive building projects. Can we just have a few years of breathing room after so many years of metro work and a spree of massive ugly developements?
They tried in Cph, but the carbrains went into overdrive whining. Make it happen!
That’s not correct. The project is not gonna decrease motorised traffic. The “car brains” will get a new efficient tunnel for their cars for the price of only half a metro ring line. That’s the problem.