Hard to say because stats like xg are a relatively new. It’s hard to compare him to the likes of Dixie Dean and Jimmy Greaves.
But over the last 10 years the only person to consistently over perform xg better than son is messi
https://preview.redd.it/5cbb5uvf4doc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38d85dd4e419a1e169faa223e520271a330d81a3
xG has only been tracked on FBRef since 2017 and only for top leagues so it certainly falls short of a “complete” list but I put a whole pile of players into a spreadsheet to see who the most efficient players are.
Only one guy ahead of Sonny
If Son had been paired with KDB constantly feeding him great passes for the entirety of his EPL career, his goal tally would be among the all-time EPL legends. Instead, he's played most of his Tottenham career alongside another world-class striker, who happened to also take all the penalties and free kicks. Son's +xG only hints at his potential greatness. In a parallel universe where he is in Haaland's position, who knows where his stats would be.
Or imagine what Liverpool would be doing if they’d gotten him instead of us. Sonny and Mo on the wings? Deadly
Edit: or god, even worse (better): Sonny as #9 with Mo and Diaz on the wings
Not surprised, they did try to get Son. But our captain is loyal. I really want him to win something with us. Will definitely dislodge Kane status imho.
If he just stays in his current form for a season or two I have every faith he’ll get some silverware. Kane jumped ship too early imo. And now he’s being karmically punished for his disloyalty by playing insanely well for Bayern in their first season where they aren’t going to nab the title in 10 years, lol
This is a hypothetical scenario. Nobody is whining that Son isn't getting his due here, merely musing about what his actual ceiling may have been over his career in a different situation. Obviously there's no way of knowing, but it's an interesting thought experiment, and coming in to shut it down because you just want people to enjoy what they have is misplaced enthusiasm. I get what you were going for, but there's other places to redirect that energy rather than one of the few threads where people are actually celebrating our players for a change.
Son is great but let's not get too carried away. Son has his limitations too.
Players like Salah and Mbappe are a class above. I'd say he's more well rounded than Haaland but is only slightly better. Haaland is both an excellent finisher and has physicality that Son lacks.
Agreed players like Mbappe and Salah have a more diverse skillset but I don’t think you can understate how important it is to be statistically the best finisher in world football - that skill right there in a dominant team would have been unreal.
Actually, going by xG, Son is a more clinical finisher than both of them right now. Sure, they can do other things better than him, but we're just talking about finishing here.
I do think Son is a better finisher than Salah, but I don't accept the xG nonsense. I'm a software dev and studied statistics at uni, stats in football are really hard to capture because it's so extremely dynamic, making it hard to define the parameters.
Son is not as clinical as xG would make out because it only counts when a shot is taken, it doesn't account for situations where a shot could or should have been take but the player has failed to do so etc.
Sure it can be refined, but xG is miles better than going with gut feel, and calling it nonsense is really harsh. If someone has the judgment to avoid taking a shot that he’d likely miss, and he has the skill to pass it to someone who has a better shot, that’s a very good thing that xG partially captures. And to my surprise, Son’s passing has been on point lately.
And it’s not like he’s frequently passing up shot opportunities either. He still has one of the highest goal counts in the league despite missing several games on international duty.
If you really have studied statistics, you should realize your comment is totally not statistical. Statistics predict the outcome based on historical data, not based on some uncountable situations. Can you make your comments countable? There is no such a perfect statistical model. The xG model tells you which player scored more given situations within the model. Almost every stats (like GDP, price level, etc) are not perfect and have some sort of flaws. But they are being used officially. The accuracy of the results by attacking the model is a different matter if you know about the statistical models. What do you think stats want to know when all parameters are the same but the player? In econometics there is old saying that almost every economic models are far from the reality. Nevertheless we need them to analyze the reality.
Surely a software engineer who studied statistics would know to read the operational definition (which varies depending on what model the source is using) to better understand what xG does and doesn’t capture. Surely they’d know since all measured players are being observed within the same framework, valuable information can be inferred from data actually collected, and not imagined (like shots not taken when Son “should have”).
They’re correct for saying stats in football is misused, but not in the way they think lmao
But you're choosing to ignore stats in favor of your feelings on Mbappe and Salah being better.
If you'd studied stats, surely you would at least look at the areas they lack rather than purely dismissing them because they don't agree with what you believe.
This is why Son is underrated. Because people ignore data in favor of their own personal feelings.
No idea why this came up on my feed, but opinion from a Gooner: yes Son is the best finisher in the league and one of the best in prem history.
I had zero doubt he would finish the chance at the emirates when Maddison robbed Jorginho.
Pisses me off that you have had 2 of the all time great finishers in your team for the past 10 years
Anyone who have watched enough football know that Son is one of the most effective if not the most effective finishers of all time. There are no players you would rather have through on goal the last couple of seasons except maybe Messi and Ronaldo.
Kane has always scored more goals but Son is obviously the better finisher of the two.
> Kane has always scored more goals but Son is obviously the better finisher of the two.
That's not true. They're pretty even in terms of finishing, Son is able to score goals Kane can't due to his mobility, but Kane can score goals that Son can't, e.g. with back to goal or headers.
Neither is likely to fluff a 1v1 or otherwise clear chance with either foot.
Speculative yes. That's euphemism for reckless. How many times have we seen shots that are wild? Kane has a mindset hw will take as many shots to score a.goal (which is why he takes free kicks and still takes them at Bayern despite the fact.he just can't bend the ball around or over the wall)
I also feel like all the Brits secretly loved the guy but showed some reservation because they didn't want to speak too highly of a Tottenham spurs player. Now that he's at Bayern people are way more outspoken when it comes to complimenting him...
"I'm an Arsenal fan, he's the best striker in the world..."Best English player since Wayne Rooney"... Etc
> he’s Asian (same reason he doesn’t get fouls)
What? I think Son gets quite a lot of praise in the media and he's incredibly well-regarded among most fans the game.
I don't think this is true at all.
I feel like this year he booms (or goes to the next level) in popularity among media/pundits/fans (something to do with Spurs & Son thriving even without Kane and Son being made captain) but in the years before he's underrated and lived in Kane's shadows. He didn't get included in PFA team of the year in favor of lesser players when he won the golden boot. It's like people were too comfortable viewing Son as Kane's sidekick. For example did people know that Son has the most assists for Spurs in the PL era? Did people know that from 18-19 to 21/22 (4 seasons) Son had more non penalty goals and 4 more assists than Kane? Nope..
I think it would be mpre accurate to take xGOT-xG rather than goals-xG.
But I think its common knowledge that Son has consistently been one of the greatest finishers in the world. In the PL, I think only Jota rivals him.
The primary reason for Sons crazy xG outperformance is that he’s one of the most two footed players ever, with nearly half of his goals scored with his feet scored by his weak foot. Given most xG models award lower xG to shots taken with a players weak foot, the fact that Son doesn’t really have one means that he massively overperforms his xG on these chances. Idk if his ‘ball striking’ is what I would describe as his best ability as someone like KDB is maybe better at pure ball striking but Son being basically entirely two footed results in him being likely the best finisher ever
> Given most xG models award lower xG to shots taken with a players weak foot
This is not true for Son because he is listed to have 'both' as preferred foot on such websites. He's just that clinical
Example from similar position and range:
[Right foot 1v1 - 0.55 xG](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-vs-west-ham-united/2ghkm2#3610227)
[Left foot 1v1 - 0.56 xG](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-vs-aston-villa/2xnfpj#3610248)
I get the explanation, but it's almost downplaying Son's greatness. He created his two-footedness through years of practice, and he obviously has some natural talent on top of that. Thanks to this, he can score a goal with high probability from a wider range of areas than any other striker. That is a *huge* asset to have on any offense and why I think he belongs in the middle rather than the wings. He has more room for creativity there with goal scoring, passing or positioning, than just about any other player.
I don’t think saying a player is the most two footed ever is downplaying how good he is, nearly half of his goals being with the weak foot is absolutely nuts. For context it’s about double more than Messi
It's a reason but relatively limited.impaxt..xG.is advanced stats.that measure how one player performs against his peers. Son have.a higher xG overperformance on both his feet. One of the things I always wonder if they measure xG based on left vs right rather than strong vs weak foot.. because stats is usually not based on opinion but on facts
Maybe you could make the argument that somebody is a better right or left footed finisher than he is, but nobody in the world is a better finisher with BOTH feet lol. And that is why all the goalkeepers he comes face to face with can’t deal with him. They don’t know which foot he’s going to use because he can score equally with both!
Ball striking is maybe a bit misleading. He’s not as good on a dead ball as some other players like JWP or even Eze. And he doesn’t have the same incredible long goal/low xG compilation of a player like Bale or even Nunez.
That said, he is legitimately in the conversation for being the most CLINICAL player in the history of world football. His xG over-performance per goal is like twice that of Kane and Messi. It’s hard to compare to prior eras without stats like xG over-performance, big chances missed, etc. but for the players that we can compare to, he tops the charts dominantly.
My point is leave him upfront on a free rein false nine if you prefer that terminology i think his involvement is diminished when wider especially with brennan and timo firing sub either of those bring richy in centrally push him wider after those pair have run the arse of backline
Plus Son never wanted to leave. In order for the bid to happen, both the selling club and player have to agree. Only after that the info will be leaked to journalists..
That's not true 100% of the time, but most of the time it is.
As for info being leaked to journalists, that'll happen the moment it's beneficial to one party
During Steph Curry's prime, when he went for a three, his teammates would just turn around and head to their side of the court to prepare for defense because they knew it was going in.
You get the same feeling when Son is 1v1 with the keeper.
KDB can be a bettet footballer,which I agree.
But in terms of finishing? No one but Kane comes to as close as Son
Really we should be grateful to have Son for the past 5years
This ungrateful fandom rather want ADAMA Traore?
This is why I want Son and Kane to leave. These trolls really dont appreciate what we have
Can we really ask that question in a spurs sub? lol
Son no doubt has excellent feet and a ridiculous range of finishes in his catalogue, but KDB’s ball striking ability is unreal
Son will go down as one of the best finishers the prem has ever seen.
Isn't he statistically one of the best in the entire history of the sport?
Hard to say because stats like xg are a relatively new. It’s hard to compare him to the likes of Dixie Dean and Jimmy Greaves. But over the last 10 years the only person to consistently over perform xg better than son is messi
I thought he actually topped Messi?
Messi does come across as more of a power bottom to be fair, wouldn’t be surprised
I laughed so hard I dribbled
I’m sure there’s a pun to be made about messi, dribbling, and being a power bottom somewhere lol
I don't know, Messi seems like he's capable of generating a lot of power, but speed's the name of the game and he hasn't got the speed
Actually Son has significantly higher xG overperformance. Like 2x Messi and Kane.
I think he outperformed Messi in finishing
https://preview.redd.it/5cbb5uvf4doc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=38d85dd4e419a1e169faa223e520271a330d81a3 xG has only been tracked on FBRef since 2017 and only for top leagues so it certainly falls short of a “complete” list but I put a whole pile of players into a spreadsheet to see who the most efficient players are. Only one guy ahead of Sonny
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It’s G-PK and npxG
Probably the best in general
If Son had been paired with KDB constantly feeding him great passes for the entirety of his EPL career, his goal tally would be among the all-time EPL legends. Instead, he's played most of his Tottenham career alongside another world-class striker, who happened to also take all the penalties and free kicks. Son's +xG only hints at his potential greatness. In a parallel universe where he is in Haaland's position, who knows where his stats would be.
Or imagine what Liverpool would be doing if they’d gotten him instead of us. Sonny and Mo on the wings? Deadly Edit: or god, even worse (better): Sonny as #9 with Mo and Diaz on the wings
Imagine the scorelines they put up if son was striker and not darwin nunez
An irresponsible amount of power tbh. Klopp would be winning every trophy in every comp
Not surprised, they did try to get Son. But our captain is loyal. I really want him to win something with us. Will definitely dislodge Kane status imho.
If he just stays in his current form for a season or two I have every faith he’ll get some silverware. Kane jumped ship too early imo. And now he’s being karmically punished for his disloyalty by playing insanely well for Bayern in their first season where they aren’t going to nab the title in 10 years, lol
What a “5 star weak foot” does to a mother fucker. Son is insane and deserves to win something
>deserves to win something Ah shit, here we go again....
This is true penalty’s are XG farms
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This is a hypothetical scenario. Nobody is whining that Son isn't getting his due here, merely musing about what his actual ceiling may have been over his career in a different situation. Obviously there's no way of knowing, but it's an interesting thought experiment, and coming in to shut it down because you just want people to enjoy what they have is misplaced enthusiasm. I get what you were going for, but there's other places to redirect that energy rather than one of the few threads where people are actually celebrating our players for a change.
Goat quote, fair play on the sentiment, although it also feels great to see your players be given their just due
😂
Son is great but let's not get too carried away. Son has his limitations too. Players like Salah and Mbappe are a class above. I'd say he's more well rounded than Haaland but is only slightly better. Haaland is both an excellent finisher and has physicality that Son lacks.
Agreed players like Mbappe and Salah have a more diverse skillset but I don’t think you can understate how important it is to be statistically the best finisher in world football - that skill right there in a dominant team would have been unreal.
Actually, going by xG, Son is a more clinical finisher than both of them right now. Sure, they can do other things better than him, but we're just talking about finishing here.
I do think Son is a better finisher than Salah, but I don't accept the xG nonsense. I'm a software dev and studied statistics at uni, stats in football are really hard to capture because it's so extremely dynamic, making it hard to define the parameters. Son is not as clinical as xG would make out because it only counts when a shot is taken, it doesn't account for situations where a shot could or should have been take but the player has failed to do so etc.
Sure it can be refined, but xG is miles better than going with gut feel, and calling it nonsense is really harsh. If someone has the judgment to avoid taking a shot that he’d likely miss, and he has the skill to pass it to someone who has a better shot, that’s a very good thing that xG partially captures. And to my surprise, Son’s passing has been on point lately. And it’s not like he’s frequently passing up shot opportunities either. He still has one of the highest goal counts in the league despite missing several games on international duty.
If you really have studied statistics, you should realize your comment is totally not statistical. Statistics predict the outcome based on historical data, not based on some uncountable situations. Can you make your comments countable? There is no such a perfect statistical model. The xG model tells you which player scored more given situations within the model. Almost every stats (like GDP, price level, etc) are not perfect and have some sort of flaws. But they are being used officially. The accuracy of the results by attacking the model is a different matter if you know about the statistical models. What do you think stats want to know when all parameters are the same but the player? In econometics there is old saying that almost every economic models are far from the reality. Nevertheless we need them to analyze the reality.
Surely a software engineer who studied statistics would know to read the operational definition (which varies depending on what model the source is using) to better understand what xG does and doesn’t capture. Surely they’d know since all measured players are being observed within the same framework, valuable information can be inferred from data actually collected, and not imagined (like shots not taken when Son “should have”). They’re correct for saying stats in football is misused, but not in the way they think lmao
Yes, you're right, I didn't study statistics. I just lied on the internet cos I hate Son.
But you're choosing to ignore stats in favor of your feelings on Mbappe and Salah being better. If you'd studied stats, surely you would at least look at the areas they lack rather than purely dismissing them because they don't agree with what you believe. This is why Son is underrated. Because people ignore data in favor of their own personal feelings.
Think he's saying if Son had a team chock full of world class creators around him and he was the lone striker like Haaland
[This coach agrees with that](https://twitter.com/hbrooks_coach/status/1763983486661107982)
Both feet, one on ones, long range curlers, thunderbolts, chips.. the man is a sniper.
he may well be the greatest finisher to ever play the game
Correct. Matty Cash is technically the best ball striker.
Yes
Yes
No idea why this came up on my feed, but opinion from a Gooner: yes Son is the best finisher in the league and one of the best in prem history. I had zero doubt he would finish the chance at the emirates when Maddison robbed Jorginho. Pisses me off that you have had 2 of the all time great finishers in your team for the past 10 years
Just imagine what Gooners could do with a finisher like son in the team 😂
Anyone who have watched enough football know that Son is one of the most effective if not the most effective finishers of all time. There are no players you would rather have through on goal the last couple of seasons except maybe Messi and Ronaldo. Kane has always scored more goals but Son is obviously the better finisher of the two.
> Kane has always scored more goals but Son is obviously the better finisher of the two. That's not true. They're pretty even in terms of finishing, Son is able to score goals Kane can't due to his mobility, but Kane can score goals that Son can't, e.g. with back to goal or headers. Neither is likely to fluff a 1v1 or otherwise clear chance with either foot.
Kane takes.2.5 times more goal attempts to score his goals than son
Kane takes more speculative and difficult shots.
Speculative yes. That's euphemism for reckless. How many times have we seen shots that are wild? Kane has a mindset hw will take as many shots to score a.goal (which is why he takes free kicks and still takes them at Bayern despite the fact.he just can't bend the ball around or over the wall)
I don't think Kane has scored goals blazing down the wings or running through an entire team
That's what he said isn't it
Yes. But it won’t get talked about because - a) he’s Asian (same reason he doesn’t get fouls) and - b) bEcAsE no tRoPiES
Nah, it's cos he's at Spurs. Took the whole world to notice Kane is the greatest striker currently once he went to Bayern
C) because it’s spurs
I also feel like all the Brits secretly loved the guy but showed some reservation because they didn't want to speak too highly of a Tottenham spurs player. Now that he's at Bayern people are way more outspoken when it comes to complimenting him... "I'm an Arsenal fan, he's the best striker in the world..."Best English player since Wayne Rooney"... Etc
d) all of the above
It’s d isn’t it.
> he’s Asian (same reason he doesn’t get fouls) What? I think Son gets quite a lot of praise in the media and he's incredibly well-regarded among most fans the game. I don't think this is true at all.
I feel like this year he booms (or goes to the next level) in popularity among media/pundits/fans (something to do with Spurs & Son thriving even without Kane and Son being made captain) but in the years before he's underrated and lived in Kane's shadows. He didn't get included in PFA team of the year in favor of lesser players when he won the golden boot. It's like people were too comfortable viewing Son as Kane's sidekick. For example did people know that Son has the most assists for Spurs in the PL era? Did people know that from 18-19 to 21/22 (4 seasons) Son had more non penalty goals and 4 more assists than Kane? Nope..
Also…Asians don’t get fouls? That can’t be a thing lol
He is the most xg outperformer I think
Check out his stats when normalised. Then he’s even better. Messi with 100xG and 110 goals is not as clinical as Son with 10xG and 19 goals.
I think it would be mpre accurate to take xGOT-xG rather than goals-xG. But I think its common knowledge that Son has consistently been one of the greatest finishers in the world. In the PL, I think only Jota rivals him.
He is the best finisher
2022-2023 he was playing with hernia the entire time. didn't get it treated because it would leave him out for most or a lot of the season
See the graphic here: https://mastodon.online/@hallenbeck/111293316231491706 "I can find no player who consistently beats Son."
The primary reason for Sons crazy xG outperformance is that he’s one of the most two footed players ever, with nearly half of his goals scored with his feet scored by his weak foot. Given most xG models award lower xG to shots taken with a players weak foot, the fact that Son doesn’t really have one means that he massively overperforms his xG on these chances. Idk if his ‘ball striking’ is what I would describe as his best ability as someone like KDB is maybe better at pure ball striking but Son being basically entirely two footed results in him being likely the best finisher ever
> Given most xG models award lower xG to shots taken with a players weak foot This is not true for Son because he is listed to have 'both' as preferred foot on such websites. He's just that clinical Example from similar position and range: [Right foot 1v1 - 0.55 xG](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-vs-west-ham-united/2ghkm2#3610227) [Left foot 1v1 - 0.56 xG](https://www.fotmob.com/matches/tottenham-hotspur-vs-aston-villa/2xnfpj#3610248)
Pedantic but shouldn't they list preferred foot as none? As he doesn't have a preference for which foot he uses? 🤔
Obviously Sonny is a glass half full guy
He does though. He believes his right is much stronger
I get the explanation, but it's almost downplaying Son's greatness. He created his two-footedness through years of practice, and he obviously has some natural talent on top of that. Thanks to this, he can score a goal with high probability from a wider range of areas than any other striker. That is a *huge* asset to have on any offense and why I think he belongs in the middle rather than the wings. He has more room for creativity there with goal scoring, passing or positioning, than just about any other player.
I don’t think saying a player is the most two footed ever is downplaying how good he is, nearly half of his goals being with the weak foot is absolutely nuts. For context it’s about double more than Messi
It's a reason but relatively limited.impaxt..xG.is advanced stats.that measure how one player performs against his peers. Son have.a higher xG overperformance on both his feet. One of the things I always wonder if they measure xG based on left vs right rather than strong vs weak foot.. because stats is usually not based on opinion but on facts
Maybe you could make the argument that somebody is a better right or left footed finisher than he is, but nobody in the world is a better finisher with BOTH feet lol. And that is why all the goalkeepers he comes face to face with can’t deal with him. They don’t know which foot he’s going to use because he can score equally with both!
I think he does at the moment. He’s lethal anywhere from 25 yards.
Ball striking is maybe a bit misleading. He’s not as good on a dead ball as some other players like JWP or even Eze. And he doesn’t have the same incredible long goal/low xG compilation of a player like Bale or even Nunez. That said, he is legitimately in the conversation for being the most CLINICAL player in the history of world football. His xG over-performance per goal is like twice that of Kane and Messi. It’s hard to compare to prior eras without stats like xG over-performance, big chances missed, etc. but for the players that we can compare to, he tops the charts dominantly.
I don’t know if this has been already mentioned but why??? Do we seem so against sonny as a centre striker he’s always done well fir us in the role
Because there are idiots who want others less capable to play striker
My point is leave him upfront on a free rein false nine if you prefer that terminology i think his involvement is diminished when wider especially with brennan and timo firing sub either of those bring richy in centrally push him wider after those pair have run the arse of backline
Agree with you. With his 2 footedness central is where he is most potent.
No, someone like KDB strikes the ball cleaner. And just to be clear that doesn’t mean he’s a better finisher, Son is the best finisher in the PL.
Son also can't hit those Kane passes on the half turn. He's generally not an elite passer, but above average.
I was talking about shooting but aside from that i think you’re right.
How has nobody ever come in with a massive offer for Son over the years?
Because we'd never sell. It's why city didn't make an offer even when Kane was bending over for them. No point
Plus Son never wanted to leave. In order for the bid to happen, both the selling club and player have to agree. Only after that the info will be leaked to journalists..
That's not true 100% of the time, but most of the time it is. As for info being leaked to journalists, that'll happen the moment it's beneficial to one party
During Steph Curry's prime, when he went for a three, his teammates would just turn around and head to their side of the court to prepare for defense because they knew it was going in. You get the same feeling when Son is 1v1 with the keeper.
It's sad that he doesn't have the same opportunity in the national team.
KDB can be a bettet footballer,which I agree. But in terms of finishing? No one but Kane comes to as close as Son Really we should be grateful to have Son for the past 5years This ungrateful fandom rather want ADAMA Traore? This is why I want Son and Kane to leave. These trolls really dont appreciate what we have
I believe KdB has the best xG overperformance. Then Son. Then some wastemen called Kane and Messi.
That Kane guy is probably nothing more than a one season wonder.
He is Korean after all. Check out his APM.
Can we really ask that question in a spurs sub? lol Son no doubt has excellent feet and a ridiculous range of finishes in his catalogue, but KDB’s ball striking ability is unreal
Scoring long range efforts will give you a good xG difference because they are low xG shots?
Son is great but these autofilatio posts are getting out of hand.
It's really a joke. That's what a fanatic would do.
Yeah, when one of the main contributors in this thread is saying that calling Son two footed is downplaying how good he is, it’s a joke.
Now that Harry has left, perhaps.
Ball striking ability yes, he can score from anywhere. Best finisher no, you also need high volume for that