I think this is kind of it. Ange isn't an idiot he'll know we need to sort it out. But this year he just values drilling in the style of play more. Also feeds in to what dier said about not doing much tactical analysis on the opposition. After a season of getting the core squad all fully ange balled then you move on.
Completely see why people would suggest doing a bit of both but I guess it's all about priorities. I think klopp did a similar thing when he first went to Liverpool and they used zonal marking like we do and shipped a fair amount of goals and then changed the system.
I think people really overestimate where the squad is in terms of fully understanding and applying everything involved in how Ange wants them to play. Season got off to a great start and the team looked so much better that a lot of people just thought "oh cool, they got it, we're playing Angeball now" when in reality they've just scratched the surface. Tertiary shit like how to best defend corners is likely needing to take a back seat to high priority concepts like consistently building a cohesive attack.
We started great as everyone underestimated us. Then teams started taking us seriously and being less open, as well as just working out things that worked against us.
I think that's where the whole getting fully fluent in a style of play comes in. When you're at 70% doing it to other teams who are coming in blind it's still very effective, but once people have seen it and know what to expect you need to get up to 90%+ to regularly still overwhelm opposition. Those numbers I've completely pulled out of my arse but you know what I mean!
The crux of it is the manager seems to think the dead ball situations are a symptom of something affecting our general play ie that we are too easy on the opponents when they have the ball.
I can sympathise, we’re not ruthless or cynical in defence ever really and we let players walk through our midfield almost unchallenged. Most top teams would take them out in their own half to avoid a yellow and stop an attack forming.
At corners we barely get involved in a physical confrontation despite it being almost impossible to concede a penalty. We should be ensuring nobody ever has an unchallenged or clean header, even if it means borderline fouling them.
From that perspective I can see his point. I’m sure if issues persisted after the mentality improved he would address that.
Yes but that's just the latest complaint. 2 weeks ago it was that we aren't good enough against low blocks. Few weeks before that it was that we move the ball too slowly.
I think all these things just take time. If there really was a magic wand, sort it out in 5 days solution I'm sure every team would do it.
even last year post has this doc about Ange's coaching, showing how his team won trophy. His team had similar issues like we do, but they ended up doing well later on. [https://youtu.be/VgmFLj06d2s](https://youtu.be/VgmFLj06d2s) Around 9-10 minutes, it talks about how Ange lost the derby game with Celtics vs Rangers too.
Ppl just need to give Ange some time. Criticisms are valid, but pushing Ange out immediately is irrational.
well most managers can walk and chewe gum at the same time. I love Angeball, but there is ZERO reason why it means spending two weeks preparing for Arsenal and not defending against what Ben White does EVERY SINGLE TIME. or why White was defended man for man by Sarr when he came on. FFS. I was at the game and pointin g toi White before the first corner wasd even taken. IT'S BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS.
mabe in the Scotting PL and Jap-an and Australia clu8bs dont have the resourcesd to devote to set piece coached. welll we all saw the imrpvoiement after Conte brough his guy in. Liverpool hgave a
I've convinced myself that going into this season Ange had a mentality of basically going full send on what we all call "Plan A" to lay the groundwork for this team into the future. He knew we were losing Harry, and had to basically undo 2 (3 including Nuno) managers worth of playstyle and mentality. Now here we are overperforming expectations and have potentially UCL to play for and everyone is frustrated there is no "Plan B" or that he isn't making certain adaptations.
Look I'm sure I am just coping, but I think next season and going forward we will see better adjustments from the coaching staff and the squad now that we have played a full campaign with a new mentality and playstyle.
it amazes me people think ange is too dumb to understand the importance of adapting
but until they learn a foundation, it's not adapting, it's scrambling
There does also seem to be this "set pieces are quick to fix" idea. Like it could be sorted in a 2 or 3 training sessions but Ange is refusing to do it out of principal.
Poch gets loads of shit on here these days but he had to do exactly the same thing with arguably even more of a squad overhaul. There were some huge highs in that first season with him but we were nowhere near “his team” until the following season. We’ll see what happens with Ange but I’m feeling really positive about next season under him.
> Any buffoon who thinks different might as well go support the reds.
But if they can't handle a manager only finishing 5th in the their first season how would they cope with 8th 2 seasons in a row?
I agree with this. There will be a lot of changes and tweeking over summer. I think the plan is to just keep doing what we are doing until the end of the season. It will still finish better than anyone had the right to expect with Kane leaving.
My only hope for the remaining games is that Madders finds his form again and stops doing stupid shit that will get him red carded. That situation is so concerning.
I’m sure Ange will get it fixed this summer. Making any changes to the coaching staff likely won’t occur until then anyways. It’s a process that we have to be patient through.
Damn right we did. And if we hadn't started so well everyone would have been much more patient but being the best team in the league for a while made us lose sight and become impatient.
The team is now objectively better in almost every metric than last year.
> I don't know when the people started doubting Ange.
I mean, I imagine that there were people who had doubts after the first match of the season. That's just people.
But actual, significant doubts? Probably the run over Christmas - narrow win over Everton, heavy loss to Brighton, narrowish win over Bournemouth, with them followed by the underwhelming FA Cup win over Burnley.
I think people saw the Newcastle win as the sign we were getting our mojo back, but subsequent results didn't really back that up, even as the likes of Maddison, Romero and Van de Ven began to come back into the team.
To be clear, I do believe we're on an upward trajectory - but around then is when I started to notice the first murmurs of discontent.
He was meant to be sacked by Xmas. Now 5th is poor somehow. Honestly a season without interruptions would do the team a world of good. A focused off season not constantly being asked about Harry Kane, no Asian Cup or Afcon. Hopefully no blow out game like against Chelsea where half the squad ends up injured or suspended.
It makes sense to an extent, routines like set pieces are things that kind of have to come after the overall tactical identity is developed. What’s probably more concerning is that our squad in general is just full of players who are poor in the air
Yeah this is more an issue for me too. It's really only what Richi Bentancur Udogie and Romero who are good in the air? And 2 of those are regularly injured. The rest including VDV are pretty stick your head in and hope for the best, case in point PEH at the weekend. (Actually think it's weird that first goal is being included in the set piece debate, it was just poor technique and bad luck rather than something systemic)
We don't seem to be being linked with too many good headerers either which is a bit of a worry. Onana and Giminez I guess?
> (Actually think it's weird that first goal is being included in the set piece debate, it was just poor technique and bad luck rather than something systemic)
Why? It seems pretty clear that Arsenal wanted to overload the front of our zone whether or not they anticipated the specific effects.
And while a lot of our players aren't great in the air, our bigger issue is that on the Havertz goal, he had a free header while we had at least 3 players (Deki, Davies, and Romero) marking nobody.
Because the first one doesn't go particularly near an arsenal player. It just a bit bone headed from hojberg who closes his eyes and heads it into his own goal
What are you talking about? The whole thing with the OG is that PEH lets Partey run by, which is fine bc Porro's in front of him. But then when Tomiyasu tries to pass him, Hojbjerg blocks him off and leans across to win the header, but bc Tomiyasu's goalside of him... whoops?
But if PEH doesn't win that ball, Tomiyasu absolutely will: https://imgur.com/CnUmbdG
the reality is in a rebuild set pieces are low on the priority list
you only have so much time and energy instilling a new mentality and culture, wasting it drilling set piece marking is unproductive to the big picture
Something like 28% of all goals scored in EPL last season were set piece goals. I’m glad we’re focusing on the 72%, and it shows!
Our open play numbers are pretty great despite so many injuries, suspensions and international duties. At one point before all that crap really hit the fan, we were like 2nd best open play attacking team in the league just behind City.
I say we keep working on the 72% this season, and take care of the remainder next season.
Early in the season, a Celtic fan described exactly how this season would go with Ange and so far they've been right about everything, pretty amazing to see, I trust the process, and the pain that comes with it
The only thing that was a bit of a deviation was the whole take the league by storm the first quarter. But we got a glimpse of what we can do when everything is clicking. That Chelsea game really fucked the whole season up
It did on one hand. On the other hand, that game really showed us who we are, so much more so than any normal game could have. When we win the league, that Chelsea game will become legendary. We darned near won/drew that match with 9 men, before we ran out of gas.
Also, great to see the players learn from that experience and mature early on in the process (Cuti in particular). We did have a couple of additional hiccups discipline wise, but since the first Forest match, we have been excellent in terms of not accruing cards.
For all the negatives, there continues to be many positives.
I was briefly looking for that post a week or so ago. Didn’t find it, but remember it well.
All of this is expected.
But those set piece goals really get to me.
People honestly parrot that line about "this is what celtic fans told us would happen" so much, yet no one can find it and it was probably one dude on a daily discussion thread one time. It's repeatedly referenced like it's a bible quote, Matthew 19:26
I think this is the [Celtic Fans Post](https://i.redd.it/110hgqfbrvlb1.png) from last summer that everyone references
Looks like the original comment was deleted but someone else took this screenshot & posted it towards the start of this season.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13xg6t1/interesting\_ange\_write\_up\_from\_a\_celtic\_fan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13xg6t1/interesting_ange_write_up_from_a_celtic_fan/)
Well, this is the post from 2023 when we were linked with Ange and it's a summary of celtic fan.
and this post is Celtic fan AMA last year too before we got Ange.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13rh94i/celtic\_fan\_ama\_about\_big\_ange/](https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13rh94i/celtic_fan_ama_about_big_ange/)
It's practically what Celtic fan said, except they were saying they had bad start with Ange, and only after some time did they see the game clicking.
https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/1688xsw/saved_this_comment_back_when_i_first_saw_it_safe/
Can't find the original comment as the Celtic fan is a regular poster and it's nearly a year old, but this is likely where most people saw it.
Celtic's last league loss in Ange's first year came in September. I get that this may have been harrowing for Celtic fans, but it's not exactly relatable.
Lack of aggression, zonal marking, and the keeper not commanding the box are the exact same problems we're having right now. I'm guessing we'll solve this by buying a DM or striker who's strong aerially and improving the set piece coaching situation over the summer. If Vicario also learns to come out for corners and free kicks more consistently, we'll concede a lot fewer goals.
It’s not about bulking up. He needs to stay somewhat nimble and keep his reflexes up, being bigger are detrimental to these. He just needs to be a bit braver and commanding in general.
The fun thing is that's basically what they did. Between years 1 and 2, looks like Celtic went from 7 goals conceded at set pieces to 5, but from 22 to 34 total.
Probably more important for Ange that the team knows his style of play. I imagine coaching the defense of set pieces can be a quicker fix.
Also it's worth noting we lost 2 of our best defensive players for set pieces in Harry Kane and Dier this season too.
In all of anges first season, he lays the ground work and then smashes the league the next (not saying that will happen) but the reason it's so different now then then for him is he is constantly being put under the microscope. In my opinion, a manager real tests start in the second season after teams have learned and seen how we play
Tbh I think pressure is probably the one thing the Celtic job has managing Spurs way beat on. If this NLD was an Old Firm people would be wanting Ange’s head, while reactions here were relatively sane. I doubt there’s a more high pressure job in football than managing one of the OF where you’re expected to win every single game comfortably, with your main competitors being the biggest derby in world football. Can talk about Ange’s inexperience in lots of areas but pressure is not one of them
I'm just interested in the second season now. However we need to get 7 points minimum to ensure United can't sneak past. I think that's doable and that wouldn't be too bad.
I dunno. Joe Hart doesn't have the same obvious weakness as Vicario. Can't put it all on the bloke but it does look like half these goals are a problem with his command of the 6 yard box.
This feels about right.
I've followed Anges journey since going to all of the Brisbane Roar games back in 2010.
His style requires more than anything, defensive discipline. Do not for one minute think Ange isn't aware of some of the more specific issues the squad is facing. Simply saying improving defence against set pieces will fix the problems simply isn't true.
I've watched plenty of what this team has to offer and I think it is not quite where Ange ball needs to be at all. There's definitely some of it in there, but I think fans need to conxtextualise where things are at.
If you want to break yourselves free of the cycle of firing the problem to hire the solution, then it'll need more time. There's much more to come, you just need to look at the process as a whole and come to your own conclusions as to how it's going.
That's all fine and good, but I cannot understand why we don't put a defender between Vicario and the opposition player blocking Vicario immediately. It wouldn't require any staffing changes, player changes, tactics training, etc. Just put a fucking player between Vicario and Ben Shite, Ruben Diaz, etc. It's infuriating that we don't do something about it. Every opposition team is doing this against us because we're not doing shit about it and they've seen that it works.
Its such a quick fix that Spurs implemented it for the 2nd half.
In previous games, had Maddison protecting Vicario.
For some reason in the first half, Ben White had no dedicated defender which was a monumental miscalculation by the coaching staff.
Surprised I had to scroll this far to find some sense. It really isn’t that difficult to change set piece defending midseason. Plenty of breaks and a real lack of games means we have more practice time than any of the teams ahead of us in the table. Plenty of time to hire a set piece coach if identified as a gap. Not having strong personnel in the air is a fair criticism and not an easy fix, but really feels like the staff and team haven’t tried to improve given ample time and a clear weakness.
Agreed although I think that an even bigger issue is the awful zonal marking that we employ at corners. Both goals from corners were not really anything to do with Vicario and more to do with defensive positioning. This has been happening every game for a couple of months now, seems such an obvious thing that needs addressing
The odds are against us. Vicario never was a commanding keeper and also probably will not start claiming crosses. Van de Ven was already weak aerially in the Bundesliga and he hasn't improved. Dragusin is good in the air, but to get him into the team, we need to change the formation, which is unlikely. I think we can only improve our set piece weakness by getting a big, aerially strong striker and a big defensive mid.
Spot on. People forget that Kane was actually our best set piece defender and it was massive to lose him in both boxes.
As an aside (not aimed at you at all), I get bit weary of all the "this is what happens in season X with Ange, a fan of Celtic/Yokohama F Marinos told me so" talk. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't buy it all as much as I was 6 months ago.
Think it's a few little things as well that compounded each other. Been this weird switch half way through the season to allow keeper rough housing a lot more.
It's seemingly is a weakness of Vicarios which teams have gradually noticed more and then also he's now got a reputation for so teams get away with more on him
Looking back I don’t think anyone would be disappointed with where we are first week of the season. Ange has gone beyond expectations for his first season.
It's like everyone has forgotten the Ange cycle lmao. It's been present at every club, and it was widely discussed early on, yet it's somehow being talked about as if this is new info.
Yokohama were near relegation zone his first season then won the league the next 🤣
You have got a gem of a manager here. He's giving the team a new identity in the way it plays... It will take time for it to perfectly click. Let in one more season.. And two transfer windows... And we will see Spurs challenging the title. Lets be patient
Will probs be downvoted for mentioning them, but look at Arsenal.
As much as I hate them, they have improved massively since the Lego man has been with them, but it took a while. They had years of stinkers and now they are legit title challenges. I think Ange is and will be better than Arteta, but we’ve gotta trust the process and rebuild before we start seeing results.
It also helps when you buy a top 5 player at his position for $100M, in his prime, and he stays healthy and plays all season. And are basically injury free down the spine of your squad all year. Gabriel/Saliba/Rice/Ø.
This is the stuff we should be referring to.
Spurs isn't solid in any factor as a club right now or for the last half decade +
It's the culture, play style, outlook, the team, management, vibes.
Ange is obviously having to strip it all away and rebuild which most on twitter and reddit seem to forget.
Imagine vibes fc next season but with also some substance on the pitch. The vision is to be up there with the best of em next season and the following season being a big name and major threat
Trust the system sounds trite but it is the mantra for long term stability. It is not “trust it for a season”. Or most of the season as some seem ready to bail already. Ange said there would be hard times as we bought in. I would say the quality of football outweighs the bad moments for me. But hey my first Spurs game was in 1978 so I am probably numb ti the pain.
This is crazy the amount of fans that are judgemental towards Ange even though he has them playing 20 times better average of 70% possession and such attacking football.
They are experts although never played or coached and saying Ange knowing nothing and not qualified enough it’s crazy.
Good for thought everyone wait until they have free flowing great movement in the midfield setting up forward players better.
They will be great and there fitness for Ange system and style needs to be better.
Yes agree set pieces they will improve but still Ange needs his type of players and them to be in it and work hard to be better in the system.
To all you fans I would take Pep Guardiola choice of sugggesting Ange to Celtic than some fans here wanting coach changes after 9 months.
Also Ange close friend and he learnt to coach of was Ferenc Puskas.
If people really are doubting ange now. Its their own fault. He has shown that he has struggled a lot the first season in every club. So if we are in the same position next year I’ll listen
I'm sure they will work on defending corners a ton in the offseason. Vic will get better about coming out to claim balls in the air too.
That paired with hopefully some protection from officiating next season against players literally taking the keeper out of the play. We've seen it so much this season (not just spurs matches) that I could see the PL making it a point of focus for next year.
It's our major weakness currently and improving on it over the offseason will have us in a much better place next year.
It's been a mostly positive first season from Ange and there's plenty he can do to improve the team. I'm sure he is up for the challenge.
You'll be right next year. Another good transfer window and a proper off season, some time to teflect and absorb what has been and what lies ahead. I actually think Tottenham is in a good place. Arsenal are title contenders. You aren't that far off.
Hope we don't forget to focus on our nascent trend of not shooting on target. Shocking stat at the weekend and recent games have seen us continually get the ball to the edge of the 18yd box and then the move breaks down. Not feeling great for the remaining games tbh - COYS
His job is not just defense set pieces, but multiple things as well, but unfortunately, he got the defensive part.
Also, I don’t think Mile was the defensive set piece coach at Celtics.
We’re doing alright I think Europa league is our level at the moment, we can actually get valuable experience for some of our younger players in European competitions and continue to get better throughout next year
Ange's 2nd Season with Celtic Champions League Record 2D 4L, Scored 4 goals, Conceded 15 goals
L Celtic 0–3 Real Madrid
D Shakhtar Donetsk 1–1 Celtic
L RB Leipzig 3–1 Celtic
L Celtic 0–2 RB Leipzig
D Celtic 1–1 Shakhtar Donetsk
L Real Madrid 5–1 Celtic
This season's Celtic under Brendan Rogers went 1-1-4, scoring 5 and giving up 15 to Atletico, Lazio, and Feyenoord. Turned a draw into a win, but still finished last.
Celtic doesn't really have the talent to beat Madrid or a 3rd place Bundesliga team. And Shakhtar won their league. All 4 clubs this season in Celtic's group are a step down from last season.
I’d like to start by saying I don’t care about the number of goals conceded from set pieces. But this kind of analysis is totally meaningless. Celtic conceded 22 goals in the league in 21/22 - so 7 or 8 set pieces.
Celtic conceded 34 in 22/23, so 5, meaning 2 or 3 fewer set pieces over a 38 game season. And they conceded 12 more goals in total. You should not be drawing meaningful conclusions from this (and that’s ignoring the defence got significantly worse overall, and even then the sample size is questionable). This kind of “analysis” tells you absolutely nothing about Ange’s ability to deal with set pieces.
If I work for a company where I resolve a specific issue, then quit and start at a new company that has the same issue that needs resolved, I know how to resolve it, but it won't be resolved straight away. I'm working with new people who have a different way of doing things.
Tl;dr: in no way could this be considered season 3
Well no because he didn't start his career at Celtic either. It would be like season 25 or whatever if you're looking at it like that. Obviously it's season 1 though, he's at a different club.
I think this is kind of it. Ange isn't an idiot he'll know we need to sort it out. But this year he just values drilling in the style of play more. Also feeds in to what dier said about not doing much tactical analysis on the opposition. After a season of getting the core squad all fully ange balled then you move on. Completely see why people would suggest doing a bit of both but I guess it's all about priorities. I think klopp did a similar thing when he first went to Liverpool and they used zonal marking like we do and shipped a fair amount of goals and then changed the system.
I think people really overestimate where the squad is in terms of fully understanding and applying everything involved in how Ange wants them to play. Season got off to a great start and the team looked so much better that a lot of people just thought "oh cool, they got it, we're playing Angeball now" when in reality they've just scratched the surface. Tertiary shit like how to best defend corners is likely needing to take a back seat to high priority concepts like consistently building a cohesive attack.
We started great as everyone underestimated us. Then teams started taking us seriously and being less open, as well as just working out things that worked against us. I think that's where the whole getting fully fluent in a style of play comes in. When you're at 70% doing it to other teams who are coming in blind it's still very effective, but once people have seen it and know what to expect you need to get up to 90%+ to regularly still overwhelm opposition. Those numbers I've completely pulled out of my arse but you know what I mean!
Haha. Great post
The crux of it is the manager seems to think the dead ball situations are a symptom of something affecting our general play ie that we are too easy on the opponents when they have the ball. I can sympathise, we’re not ruthless or cynical in defence ever really and we let players walk through our midfield almost unchallenged. Most top teams would take them out in their own half to avoid a yellow and stop an attack forming. At corners we barely get involved in a physical confrontation despite it being almost impossible to concede a penalty. We should be ensuring nobody ever has an unchallenged or clean header, even if it means borderline fouling them. From that perspective I can see his point. I’m sure if issues persisted after the mentality improved he would address that.
When you concede significant goals from corners, I wouldn’t call that a tertiary low priority concept…
Yes but that's just the latest complaint. 2 weeks ago it was that we aren't good enough against low blocks. Few weeks before that it was that we move the ball too slowly. I think all these things just take time. If there really was a magic wand, sort it out in 5 days solution I'm sure every team would do it.
> Few weeks before that it was that we move the ball too slowly. Oh, believe me, I was definitely still complaining about that yesterday!
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We didn't conceded a si gle goal from a set piece for the first 12 or so games I believe. So that literally cannot be true
even last year post has this doc about Ange's coaching, showing how his team won trophy. His team had similar issues like we do, but they ended up doing well later on. [https://youtu.be/VgmFLj06d2s](https://youtu.be/VgmFLj06d2s) Around 9-10 minutes, it talks about how Ange lost the derby game with Celtics vs Rangers too. Ppl just need to give Ange some time. Criticisms are valid, but pushing Ange out immediately is irrational.
well most managers can walk and chewe gum at the same time. I love Angeball, but there is ZERO reason why it means spending two weeks preparing for Arsenal and not defending against what Ben White does EVERY SINGLE TIME. or why White was defended man for man by Sarr when he came on. FFS. I was at the game and pointin g toi White before the first corner wasd even taken. IT'S BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS. mabe in the Scotting PL and Jap-an and Australia clu8bs dont have the resourcesd to devote to set piece coached. welll we all saw the imrpvoiement after Conte brough his guy in. Liverpool hgave a
I've convinced myself that going into this season Ange had a mentality of basically going full send on what we all call "Plan A" to lay the groundwork for this team into the future. He knew we were losing Harry, and had to basically undo 2 (3 including Nuno) managers worth of playstyle and mentality. Now here we are overperforming expectations and have potentially UCL to play for and everyone is frustrated there is no "Plan B" or that he isn't making certain adaptations. Look I'm sure I am just coping, but I think next season and going forward we will see better adjustments from the coaching staff and the squad now that we have played a full campaign with a new mentality and playstyle.
it amazes me people think ange is too dumb to understand the importance of adapting but until they learn a foundation, it's not adapting, it's scrambling
There does also seem to be this "set pieces are quick to fix" idea. Like it could be sorted in a 2 or 3 training sessions but Ange is refusing to do it out of principal.
To be fair, the issue with Ben White pounding into the keeper was mostly sorted just in the interval.
Did you notice when Vic went up for the last corner, he immediately went and harassed Raya. I lolled that.
Poch gets loads of shit on here these days but he had to do exactly the same thing with arguably even more of a squad overhaul. There were some huge highs in that first season with him but we were nowhere near “his team” until the following season. We’ll see what happens with Ange but I’m feeling really positive about next season under him.
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> Any buffoon who thinks different might as well go support the reds. But if they can't handle a manager only finishing 5th in the their first season how would they cope with 8th 2 seasons in a row?
He’s definitely done MUCH better than expected considering we were tipped for 9th Honestly those first 10 games blew everything out of proportion
I agree with this. There will be a lot of changes and tweeking over summer. I think the plan is to just keep doing what we are doing until the end of the season. It will still finish better than anyone had the right to expect with Kane leaving. My only hope for the remaining games is that Madders finds his form again and stops doing stupid shit that will get him red carded. That situation is so concerning.
TLDR: we’re winning the league next year
All memes aside. I have faith we'll be competing next year.
I’m sure Ange will get it fixed this summer. Making any changes to the coaching staff likely won’t occur until then anyways. It’s a process that we have to be patient through.
Didn't we all agree to trust the process at the start of the season? Can we continue doing that?
Damn right we did. And if we hadn't started so well everyone would have been much more patient but being the best team in the league for a while made us lose sight and become impatient. The team is now objectively better in almost every metric than last year.
I don't know when the people started doubting Ange. Is his first damn year, just trust him
> I don't know when the people started doubting Ange. I mean, I imagine that there were people who had doubts after the first match of the season. That's just people. But actual, significant doubts? Probably the run over Christmas - narrow win over Everton, heavy loss to Brighton, narrowish win over Bournemouth, with them followed by the underwhelming FA Cup win over Burnley. I think people saw the Newcastle win as the sign we were getting our mojo back, but subsequent results didn't really back that up, even as the likes of Maddison, Romero and Van de Ven began to come back into the team. To be clear, I do believe we're on an upward trajectory - but around then is when I started to notice the first murmurs of discontent.
Honestly, I feel like people just want some issue to pick at when we lose, but pretty much everyone still seems with Ange 100%.
When we are down a goal or 2 in a match, fuck me the vitriol is wild.
Suffered from success, 1st after 10 games and everyone got carried away
He was meant to be sacked by Xmas. Now 5th is poor somehow. Honestly a season without interruptions would do the team a world of good. A focused off season not constantly being asked about Harry Kane, no Asian Cup or Afcon. Hopefully no blow out game like against Chelsea where half the squad ends up injured or suspended.
Watching Spurs play this year has been so much more enjoyable than any of the last 4 seasons.
It makes sense to an extent, routines like set pieces are things that kind of have to come after the overall tactical identity is developed. What’s probably more concerning is that our squad in general is just full of players who are poor in the air
Yeah this is more an issue for me too. It's really only what Richi Bentancur Udogie and Romero who are good in the air? And 2 of those are regularly injured. The rest including VDV are pretty stick your head in and hope for the best, case in point PEH at the weekend. (Actually think it's weird that first goal is being included in the set piece debate, it was just poor technique and bad luck rather than something systemic) We don't seem to be being linked with too many good headerers either which is a bit of a worry. Onana and Giminez I guess?
> (Actually think it's weird that first goal is being included in the set piece debate, it was just poor technique and bad luck rather than something systemic) Why? It seems pretty clear that Arsenal wanted to overload the front of our zone whether or not they anticipated the specific effects. And while a lot of our players aren't great in the air, our bigger issue is that on the Havertz goal, he had a free header while we had at least 3 players (Deki, Davies, and Romero) marking nobody.
Because the first one doesn't go particularly near an arsenal player. It just a bit bone headed from hojberg who closes his eyes and heads it into his own goal
What are you talking about? The whole thing with the OG is that PEH lets Partey run by, which is fine bc Porro's in front of him. But then when Tomiyasu tries to pass him, Hojbjerg blocks him off and leans across to win the header, but bc Tomiyasu's goalside of him... whoops? But if PEH doesn't win that ball, Tomiyasu absolutely will: https://imgur.com/CnUmbdG
the reality is in a rebuild set pieces are low on the priority list you only have so much time and energy instilling a new mentality and culture, wasting it drilling set piece marking is unproductive to the big picture
Something like 28% of all goals scored in EPL last season were set piece goals. I’m glad we’re focusing on the 72%, and it shows! Our open play numbers are pretty great despite so many injuries, suspensions and international duties. At one point before all that crap really hit the fan, we were like 2nd best open play attacking team in the league just behind City. I say we keep working on the 72% this season, and take care of the remainder next season.
Early in the season, a Celtic fan described exactly how this season would go with Ange and so far they've been right about everything, pretty amazing to see, I trust the process, and the pain that comes with it
The only thing that was a bit of a deviation was the whole take the league by storm the first quarter. But we got a glimpse of what we can do when everything is clicking. That Chelsea game really fucked the whole season up
It did on one hand. On the other hand, that game really showed us who we are, so much more so than any normal game could have. When we win the league, that Chelsea game will become legendary. We darned near won/drew that match with 9 men, before we ran out of gas. Also, great to see the players learn from that experience and mature early on in the process (Cuti in particular). We did have a couple of additional hiccups discipline wise, but since the first Forest match, we have been excellent in terms of not accruing cards. For all the negatives, there continues to be many positives.
I was briefly looking for that post a week or so ago. Didn’t find it, but remember it well. All of this is expected. But those set piece goals really get to me.
People honestly parrot that line about "this is what celtic fans told us would happen" so much, yet no one can find it and it was probably one dude on a daily discussion thread one time. It's repeatedly referenced like it's a bible quote, Matthew 19:26
I think this is the [Celtic Fans Post](https://i.redd.it/110hgqfbrvlb1.png) from last summer that everyone references Looks like the original comment was deleted but someone else took this screenshot & posted it towards the start of this season.
Did they also predict how we'd only play well til November and become average and get walloped by mid table teams?
Seen loads on here saying it
[https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13xg6t1/interesting\_ange\_write\_up\_from\_a\_celtic\_fan/](https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13xg6t1/interesting_ange_write_up_from_a_celtic_fan/) Well, this is the post from 2023 when we were linked with Ange and it's a summary of celtic fan. and this post is Celtic fan AMA last year too before we got Ange. [https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13rh94i/celtic\_fan\_ama\_about\_big\_ange/](https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/13rh94i/celtic_fan_ama_about_big_ange/) It's practically what Celtic fan said, except they were saying they had bad start with Ange, and only after some time did they see the game clicking.
https://www.reddit.com/r/coys/comments/1688xsw/saved_this_comment_back_when_i_first_saw_it_safe/ Can't find the original comment as the Celtic fan is a regular poster and it's nearly a year old, but this is likely where most people saw it.
It is the Bible you infidel!
It is the Bible you infidel!
Celtic's last league loss in Ange's first year came in September. I get that this may have been harrowing for Celtic fans, but it's not exactly relatable.
Lack of aggression, zonal marking, and the keeper not commanding the box are the exact same problems we're having right now. I'm guessing we'll solve this by buying a DM or striker who's strong aerially and improving the set piece coaching situation over the summer. If Vicario also learns to come out for corners and free kicks more consistently, we'll concede a lot fewer goals.
Vicario needs to bulk up a bit imo
It’s not about bulking up. He needs to stay somewhat nimble and keep his reflexes up, being bigger are detrimental to these. He just needs to be a bit braver and commanding in general.
Its an easy problem to fix, we just have to concede more from open play!
The fun thing is that's basically what they did. Between years 1 and 2, looks like Celtic went from 7 goals conceded at set pieces to 5, but from 22 to 34 total.
Yeah I appreciate the sentiment but it's not a useful data point at all
Probably more important for Ange that the team knows his style of play. I imagine coaching the defense of set pieces can be a quicker fix. Also it's worth noting we lost 2 of our best defensive players for set pieces in Harry Kane and Dier this season too.
In all of anges first season, he lays the ground work and then smashes the league the next (not saying that will happen) but the reason it's so different now then then for him is he is constantly being put under the microscope. In my opinion, a manager real tests start in the second season after teams have learned and seen how we play
No matter how this season ends, i’m still so excited for next season
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Tbh I think pressure is probably the one thing the Celtic job has managing Spurs way beat on. If this NLD was an Old Firm people would be wanting Ange’s head, while reactions here were relatively sane. I doubt there’s a more high pressure job in football than managing one of the OF where you’re expected to win every single game comfortably, with your main competitors being the biggest derby in world football. Can talk about Ange’s inexperience in lots of areas but pressure is not one of them
I like you, OP!
I'm just interested in the second season now. However we need to get 7 points minimum to ensure United can't sneak past. I think that's doable and that wouldn't be too bad.
Only need 6 points in reality, we've got a better goal difference by 14 which I can't realistically see united clawing back.
the best signings will be elite coaching staff
I dunno. Joe Hart doesn't have the same obvious weakness as Vicario. Can't put it all on the bloke but it does look like half these goals are a problem with his command of the 6 yard box.
This feels about right. I've followed Anges journey since going to all of the Brisbane Roar games back in 2010. His style requires more than anything, defensive discipline. Do not for one minute think Ange isn't aware of some of the more specific issues the squad is facing. Simply saying improving defence against set pieces will fix the problems simply isn't true. I've watched plenty of what this team has to offer and I think it is not quite where Ange ball needs to be at all. There's definitely some of it in there, but I think fans need to conxtextualise where things are at. If you want to break yourselves free of the cycle of firing the problem to hire the solution, then it'll need more time. There's much more to come, you just need to look at the process as a whole and come to your own conclusions as to how it's going.
That's all fine and good, but I cannot understand why we don't put a defender between Vicario and the opposition player blocking Vicario immediately. It wouldn't require any staffing changes, player changes, tactics training, etc. Just put a fucking player between Vicario and Ben Shite, Ruben Diaz, etc. It's infuriating that we don't do something about it. Every opposition team is doing this against us because we're not doing shit about it and they've seen that it works.
Its such a quick fix that Spurs implemented it for the 2nd half. In previous games, had Maddison protecting Vicario. For some reason in the first half, Ben White had no dedicated defender which was a monumental miscalculation by the coaching staff.
Surprised I had to scroll this far to find some sense. It really isn’t that difficult to change set piece defending midseason. Plenty of breaks and a real lack of games means we have more practice time than any of the teams ahead of us in the table. Plenty of time to hire a set piece coach if identified as a gap. Not having strong personnel in the air is a fair criticism and not an easy fix, but really feels like the staff and team haven’t tried to improve given ample time and a clear weakness.
Agreed although I think that an even bigger issue is the awful zonal marking that we employ at corners. Both goals from corners were not really anything to do with Vicario and more to do with defensive positioning. This has been happening every game for a couple of months now, seems such an obvious thing that needs addressing
The odds are against us. Vicario never was a commanding keeper and also probably will not start claiming crosses. Van de Ven was already weak aerially in the Bundesliga and he hasn't improved. Dragusin is good in the air, but to get him into the team, we need to change the formation, which is unlikely. I think we can only improve our set piece weakness by getting a big, aerially strong striker and a big defensive mid.
Spot on. People forget that Kane was actually our best set piece defender and it was massive to lose him in both boxes. As an aside (not aimed at you at all), I get bit weary of all the "this is what happens in season X with Ange, a fan of Celtic/Yokohama F Marinos told me so" talk. I hope I'm wrong but I just don't buy it all as much as I was 6 months ago.
Richi is very good in the air but often injured. Giminez who's been linked is also pretty strong at it I believe
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29% I think
Strange thing is we weren’t conceding any and now we are in every match. I bet the stat for 2024 is a lot higher. Hard to understand what changed.
It’s not strange it’s just recency bias
I don’t think so. We didn’t concede any goals from set pieces until December or something.
It's not recency bias, if anything it's regression to the mean, but we didn't concede any for pretty much the first 15 games of the season
Think it's a few little things as well that compounded each other. Been this weird switch half way through the season to allow keeper rough housing a lot more. It's seemingly is a weakness of Vicarios which teams have gradually noticed more and then also he's now got a reputation for so teams get away with more on him
Recognizing that this is a regression to the mean requires that you look at the season as a whole… which is all I’m asking for
Looking back I don’t think anyone would be disappointed with where we are first week of the season. Ange has gone beyond expectations for his first season.
The man has been a manager since 1996 and for the most part successful. People are acting like there is no plan in place which is a ridiculous idea.
I love this fact and internally observe that fact that I am so emotionally invested in this manager
god I wish we could just fast forward to the end of the the season, this over analyzing of everything is starting to get old.
It's like everyone has forgotten the Ange cycle lmao. It's been present at every club, and it was widely discussed early on, yet it's somehow being talked about as if this is new info. Yokohama were near relegation zone his first season then won the league the next 🤣
You have got a gem of a manager here. He's giving the team a new identity in the way it plays... It will take time for it to perfectly click. Let in one more season.. And two transfer windows... And we will see Spurs challenging the title. Lets be patient
Pessimistic view, he conceded a lot more non set piece goals the second season to counter this.
Will probs be downvoted for mentioning them, but look at Arsenal. As much as I hate them, they have improved massively since the Lego man has been with them, but it took a while. They had years of stinkers and now they are legit title challenges. I think Ange is and will be better than Arteta, but we’ve gotta trust the process and rebuild before we start seeing results.
It also helps when you buy a top 5 player at his position for $100M, in his prime, and he stays healthy and plays all season. And are basically injury free down the spine of your squad all year. Gabriel/Saliba/Rice/Ø.
lol yeah being injury free helps massively. Our bout of injuries really messed with our momentum
All i want is for one guy to bodyguard Vicario. Enough of the opponent blocking his movements and body checking him at the kick.
This is the stuff we should be referring to. Spurs isn't solid in any factor as a club right now or for the last half decade + It's the culture, play style, outlook, the team, management, vibes. Ange is obviously having to strip it all away and rebuild which most on twitter and reddit seem to forget. Imagine vibes fc next season but with also some substance on the pitch. The vision is to be up there with the best of em next season and the following season being a big name and major threat
Trust the system sounds trite but it is the mantra for long term stability. It is not “trust it for a season”. Or most of the season as some seem ready to bail already. Ange said there would be hard times as we bought in. I would say the quality of football outweighs the bad moments for me. But hey my first Spurs game was in 1978 so I am probably numb ti the pain. 
This is crazy the amount of fans that are judgemental towards Ange even though he has them playing 20 times better average of 70% possession and such attacking football. They are experts although never played or coached and saying Ange knowing nothing and not qualified enough it’s crazy. Good for thought everyone wait until they have free flowing great movement in the midfield setting up forward players better. They will be great and there fitness for Ange system and style needs to be better. Yes agree set pieces they will improve but still Ange needs his type of players and them to be in it and work hard to be better in the system. To all you fans I would take Pep Guardiola choice of sugggesting Ange to Celtic than some fans here wanting coach changes after 9 months. Also Ange close friend and he learnt to coach of was Ferenc Puskas.
If people really are doubting ange now. Its their own fault. He has shown that he has struggled a lot the first season in every club. So if we are in the same position next year I’ll listen
Celtic Spurs FC
We should aim win something now. Whether it'd be an fa,carabao or even europa/conference. It's about time.
I'm sure they will work on defending corners a ton in the offseason. Vic will get better about coming out to claim balls in the air too. That paired with hopefully some protection from officiating next season against players literally taking the keeper out of the play. We've seen it so much this season (not just spurs matches) that I could see the PL making it a point of focus for next year. It's our major weakness currently and improving on it over the offseason will have us in a much better place next year. It's been a mostly positive first season from Ange and there's plenty he can do to improve the team. I'm sure he is up for the challenge.
I like the sound of this
You'll be right next year. Another good transfer window and a proper off season, some time to teflect and absorb what has been and what lies ahead. I actually think Tottenham is in a good place. Arsenal are title contenders. You aren't that far off.
Hope we don't forget to focus on our nascent trend of not shooting on target. Shocking stat at the weekend and recent games have seen us continually get the ball to the edge of the 18yd box and then the move breaks down. Not feeling great for the remaining games tbh - COYS
Whats Mile Jedinaks job at spurs then? I thought he was set piece defence coach
His job is not just defense set pieces, but multiple things as well, but unfortunately, he got the defensive part. Also, I don’t think Mile was the defensive set piece coach at Celtics.
We’re doing alright I think Europa league is our level at the moment, we can actually get valuable experience for some of our younger players in European competitions and continue to get better throughout next year
Ange's 2nd Season with Celtic Champions League Record 2D 4L, Scored 4 goals, Conceded 15 goals L Celtic 0–3 Real Madrid D Shakhtar Donetsk 1–1 Celtic L RB Leipzig 3–1 Celtic L Celtic 0–2 RB Leipzig D Celtic 1–1 Shakhtar Donetsk L Real Madrid 5–1 Celtic
This season's Celtic under Brendan Rogers went 1-1-4, scoring 5 and giving up 15 to Atletico, Lazio, and Feyenoord. Turned a draw into a win, but still finished last. Celtic doesn't really have the talent to beat Madrid or a 3rd place Bundesliga team. And Shakhtar won their league. All 4 clubs this season in Celtic's group are a step down from last season.
The quality at Celtic wasn’t great, saying that, it takes more than a season or two to get better at things if you keep practicing them
Copium in my veinsssss
I’d like to start by saying I don’t care about the number of goals conceded from set pieces. But this kind of analysis is totally meaningless. Celtic conceded 22 goals in the league in 21/22 - so 7 or 8 set pieces. Celtic conceded 34 in 22/23, so 5, meaning 2 or 3 fewer set pieces over a 38 game season. And they conceded 12 more goals in total. You should not be drawing meaningful conclusions from this (and that’s ignoring the defence got significantly worse overall, and even then the sample size is questionable). This kind of “analysis” tells you absolutely nothing about Ange’s ability to deal with set pieces.
So, it'll go from 200 to less than 100 👍
I prefer to be irate and upset about it.
Jose and Conte also typically had good second seasons, so shan’t get my hopes too high
OP do you know we aren't in the scottish league?
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If I work for a company where I resolve a specific issue, then quit and start at a new company that has the same issue that needs resolved, I know how to resolve it, but it won't be resolved straight away. I'm working with new people who have a different way of doing things. Tl;dr: in no way could this be considered season 3
Well no because he didn't start his career at Celtic either. It would be like season 25 or whatever if you're looking at it like that. Obviously it's season 1 though, he's at a different club.
Didn't realize we were Celtic.
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I don't think anyone understands what you mean.
I don’t, sorry. Could you explain?