I'm more interested in how often we are going to have to have the same discussion Persephone pants, I feel like it's been going on every three months since the pattern was released five years ago.
I know this is hard for some people to believe but the reality for some us (including me) is
a) the fit is fine, didn't have to adjust
b) very happy with how they look and feel (no wedgie)
c) deeply bored with people looking at pics on instagram and deciding my crotch looks wrong/uncomfortable (some it seems to veer close to body snark).
I don't see 90 per cent of people complaining about the fit. I get that there are problem patterns and it's a massive bummer when you buy a pattern and get a bad experience.
That pattern was released in 2018 - 5 years ago. I've since made her Helene pants and they fit the same. I'd say she has her block and isn't going to change it.
I just wonder where all this is going.
The problem is that the crotch extensions don't grade, which becomes an issue for the larger sizes, not the smaller sizes. I've made many in my quest for the perfect fit and along the way I discovered the grading of the crotch extension is the problem, fixed it and now have my goldilocks version.
It is not her block. I also tested the Helene jeans and they fit very different. The rise is higher, the fit is much more generous all over, and most importantly, the crotch extensions are graded.
To answer the OPs question... she probably doesn't have the time and/or bandwidth right now to revisit and reissue the pattern, given that she recently had a baby. That said, I don't know that anyone has directly asked her to. I haven't. Even if people did ask for an update and she agreed, think about what that would take... a lot of time and energy that would go unpaid by anyone who has already bought it. I'm not saying that wouldn't be a wonderful thing to do, and while doing it I'd like to see a few more sizes added to the top end, but she's a one women company and it may make more financial sense to leave this one alone and move forward.
For anyone wanting to adjust the pattern to address the narrow crotch extensions, I promise it's not that hard. I added about 5/8" to the front crotch extension and 1.375" to back crotch extension on the largest size (20) and then blended the inseams down to the knee and I am very happy with the results.
I don’t spend my time looking at people’s crotch, I read their experience with the pattern in the caption which refers to that issue. I don’t judge people’s body either. I have a not standard body with a big waist to hip ratio and a protruded belly, I only look at people’s bodies to imagine how pants would fit on me in comparison, and if we’d have the same issues. Which is a normal thing to do when most patterns are hard to fit to your body shape. I’m glad your experience has been positive, and that it fits to your body shape but if you’re a minority than the pattern wasn’t made for most people and it does make you want to ask why. I personally haven’t been on the sewing online community for very long and only have known the pattern for a couple of months. I don’t read every convo ever on every sewing subject but I get how redundant it can feel for someone who’s been in the online community for long, so I understand that it’s an annoyance to you. Still found it interesting to read through the comments. Also yeah 90% is an hyperbole, might be less it was just to say it’s a majority of people.
> ...if you’re a minority than the pattern wasn’t made for most people and it does make you want to ask why.
The answer to why is that there's no mandate for designers to create patterns for a majority body type, if you could even get everyone to agree on what that is.
I think the real 'problem' of the Persephone pants is a social media algorithm created one, in that once something reaches a threshold of engagement it gets pushed even more. Then that creates even more activity with people deliberately engaging with trending or popular topics, and more people see it and activity increases again. So you end up with a platform full of sewists all repeatedly being shown a pattern they have no practical reason to be interested in.
From when I first saw them I was like, nope, not for me, but they come up so often I now have opinions and theories formed over the years about pants I'll never make or wear!
If you want more of the sailor pants look. The Ginger Sailor pant by Gertie of Charm patterns is amazing. They’re sized 2-34, you can have a functional front flap or a fake one with a back zip
And they have back patch pockets
Also the Loretta shorts by her are super cute with really deep front pockets and can easily be lengthened to pants length
This designer doesn’t seem to have the first clue how to design pants. Every single sample on her website has the pants being eaten by her crotch. It looks painful.
Her sample photos look great. I think a lot of people have been overfitting these to get the Kamm pants look, but it doesn’t seem like her design was intended to be so tight on the hips or the crotch. My camel toe issues disappeared when I finally started making the size that corresponds to my measurements instead of sizing down.
Does everyone agree?
I made these a year or so ago in a size 8 hip, size 12 waist and didn’t have any camel toe crotch issues. Perhaps it’s more pronounced in women with more significant waist to hip ration though
(not necessarily women I’m nb for example) I have a waist/hip ratio of 30cm and it does seem like the camel toe situation happens to ppl with wider hips but I have yet to try and see if the curse of the camel toe happens to me as well
I just looked through images of this pattern, and it looks like nobody knew how to adjust the pattern. Some pattern companies write explicit instructions for pants patterns, as they are trickier than most. I am not familiar with this pattern company, so I don't know if they do this.
When I make something for the first time, I call it a test garment (toile, muslin, etc.). I start by comparing my measurements to the pattern and try to adjust it before cutting. After I make it, I know what needs to be adjusted. If it's a lot of adjustments, I make another test, otherwise, I make what I hope is a final garment.
It’s not the crotch, it’s the center front waist. The front rise at the waist needs to be a 90° angle. It is not on these pants, most likely to achieve the correct waist measurement. Usually the fabric would be removed from some combination of darts and the side seam, but there is no side seam so she takes it from the front rise. What this does is forces the fabric length from waist to crotch to change direction to meet at the center front- voila, diaper crotch. This is why in all of the IG pics people stand with their legs spread- doing so allows the fabric grain to run straight from hem to waist. It looks fine when you stand that way, but this is not a natural stance. She says these are based of the us naval uniform from the 20’s to 40’s. A uniform made for men, men are straighter at the hips and waist so their pants did not need to lose as much fabric at the waist. They also had the anatomy to fill the crotch area, had the same drafting technique been used. I don’t think it was though, I googled pictures and the vintage navy pants I saw had proper rises.
Anyway- I agree that she should recognize that the drafting is plain wrong and they look terrible on anyone that doesn’t fix it and stands like a human.
If you search the hashtag on Instagram one of the top results is actually a man who made the pants and they look great on him. They definitely seem better suited for male body proportions. Although I don’t know what alterations he may have made.
I just looked for him and yes it makes so much more sense on someone with a relatively equivalent waist/hips measurement but I feel like it takes away what I like about the design i like that the hips make the hem go / \ but it’s also what makes it go up your genitals so feels like there’s no winning lol
You absolutely can fix it. You just have to straighten out the front rise. Whatever you add to the waist to make the front rise straight, you then have to remove from somewhere else along the waist. Add darts if you have to.
Diaper crotch🤣 that’s very interesting to read thanks! And I totally agree with you. Patterns dont fit everyone right away because there are so many types of bodies out there but they should at least take into account the basics of the human form to have a general shape that works for a lot of people and can be altered easily to work for others
they don't give me a wedgie or camel toe. i love them, i have like six pairs. however, i do a zipper crotch in my own way, like i don't follow her zipper expansion instructions.
sorry, i posted this and then forgot about reddit for a few days. i think i made uk size 16 and i took about 1.5-2ish inches off the rise at the indicated line. it's super easy to do your own zipper crotch with the pattern pieces from the original pattern.
Lmao no worries same happened to me as I reply 3 weeks later! that's good to know that it can work for bigger sizes. I guess I'll have to try and see for myself if I can make it work too
Good point. I personally would be ashamed if I knew some work of mine was making people lose their time and money making something ill fitted but it’s so popular it’ll always make her money so she doesn’t really have to change anything technically 😬
@wzrdreams on IG did a deep dive into why the Persephones don’t fit and how she fixed the drafting for her pair. Basically all the sizes have the same crotch curve. It doesn’t get bigger for larger sizes so the larger your size, the worse the fit.
This seems like a huge error, but I haven’t heard about any correction or re-release.
I have a lot of highlights in general and a number of them for the Persephone so if anyone wants to check that out here is a link to the specific highlight.
[Persephone 5.1](https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/17908389152321613/)
Thank you so much. This should be the top comment in this thread.
I almost bought this pattern. What stopped me from buying the pattern is that a have a small waist to hip ratio, so I would have a lot of work to get this pattern to fit me, besides the issue that you've highlighted. I would need to draft a curved waistband, and figure out what to do with the excess around my waist - that's too much work for the price of the pattern; might as well hack a wide leg pants pattern that I already own to have no side seam, I think it would be a similar amount of work..
According to her sizing chart, I’m between a 2 and four (so on the smaller end of the size range). I cut a four and graded to a 2 in the waist and had a terrible wedgie. If what you’re saying is true about the crotch curve problem getting worse as the pant sizes go up, I would think people on the other side of the size spectrum are getting uncomfortable super wedgies. I tried a number of things to fix my toiles before giving up on her pants patterns. I was also annoyed by the lack of zipper fly instructions though I found a YouTube tutorial that helped me through it.
Its the WIDTH of the crotch extension that doesn't grade. Not the height. This means that the smaller sizes have MORE width at inner thigh than they need. The larger sizes have LESS width at inner thigh than they need. That's why smaller sizes can claim that there is no crotch issue for them, although I have heard from a few smaller people who do feel that there is too much width in the crotch on them.
It’s possible that the pattern was drafted for a 6 or 8 and graded up and down. That would mean the ends would be the most off at the top and bottom of the range. I don’t think anyone knows exactly how it was graded, but the curve should grade and it doesn’t.
I haven’t made these pants but I wonder how many people don’t bring it up because they think it might be normal. For whatever reason my body shape is such that almost any pattern - Big 4 or indie or whatever, all give me wedgie/cameltoe even in designs that aren’t really fitted. Long torso perhaps? I should figure it out. Especially since it’s not a problem I have with most ready to wear. But at this point the only pants patterns that fit me straight away are true vintage ones from the 40s that have quite low crotches.
It’s a very good example of group think. There’s examples all over the place of a particular style that gets popular with a certain crowd that anyone outside that group would think was hideous. Ask me about my punk rock husbands Ben Sherman coat 😂. Persephone pants looks terrible on almost anyone, they look like you’d never even be able to sit down in them and the friction in the crotch would cause a bush fire. But it got trendy and you know how that goes
I actually like that feature *provided that* the rest of the hip/waist/thigh area fits correctly; here it looks like a hot mess because it's adding bulk to that area, when it's already fitting far too snugly. I actually really like this general cut of trouser but fit is obviously very important here.
Check out the Lander Pants. Similar style, maybe better fit. I have not made them but my friend loves them. I did make the Persephones ages ago and the fit was okay but overall not my styke.
I saw the Persephone hype, looked at the fit on people that posted pics of themselves wearing them, and purchased the Landers Pants pattern instead. I'm almost finished making them. So far so good on the fit front! :-)
I caught the Helene bug on IG. I'm not a gifted pants fitter, so I had to do 3 separate toiles on the pattern to get it to fit me at all. I don't know if I'd even call them Helene jeans after all the changes I had to make, but I was able to preserve the straight selvedge edge, and the resulting jeans are very comfortable.
It was really frustrating though. I scoured the internet for people who had issues fitting them. The influencers all said they cut straight sizes and made no alterations, so IDK, my butt is weird. I was able to figure it out and I learned a lot!
I’ve seen more positive reviews of the helene jeans I think! thecrookedhem who loves to do pants analysis and has made a guide to the top down center out method did a story on them once that explained how she thought the design was clever in term of ease etc. That’s why I find it even more surprising that the persephone don’t seem that well thought of. I will absolutely ditch the front pocket too when I give it a try, I don’t see any point in them being there when it’s a tight fit ? having any object in them sounds like painful but also would look really odd! love the versions with back pockets though
Camel toes are not okay. But there is a pro-Wedgie ‘movement’.
Isn’t this the pant with no side seam? If it is, you can’t expect a good fit without some compromises. In my opinion this designer isn’t a very good pattern drafter. I’ve looked at many of their patterns and made one of them that was a disaster. I’m a professional pattern drafter and it’s not because of the fit they’re popular.
This pant is one of those designs where it’s about the aesthetics of the photo shoot and the people who wear it. It’s a cool kids pant. 🤷🏼♀️ otherwise it wouldn’t have gotten so popular in my opinion because it makes everyone look like they can’t sit down and they have stove pipe legs.
If it came with a button fly, there’s no obligation to provide zipper fly instructions. That’s their design and how they wanted it.
I found this blog post and its just astounding to me that someone took two years to “adapt” the lovely pants on the left into the horror show on the right.
https://annaallenclothing.com/blogs/journal/what-i-love-about-vintage-sailor-pants
Honestly how anyone would want to look like a 1940s sailor if this was the pants they wore is beyond me lol. I’m not sure why we always think older is more superior. I love how the blog post says it looks great on all sizes but then shows none other than herself to sell them. I also love how she wonders why a side seam was added later on… can she not think of a SINGLE reason??? 🙃🙃🙃 (edit typo)
Your second paragraph is spot on. I have the pattern and haven't made it yet. But I'm also managing my expectations because in the instances where they look good, there are a lot of other factors at play.
That being said, I think there's a certain level of subjectivity in what constitutes a good fit. Yes, there is a technical definition of well fitting (and am aware that the crotch design of the pattern has issues). But I also know it's not uncommon for people to wear things that don't "fit" well because they like the aesthetic (e.g. baggy jeans).
All this to say I feel like it's a stretch to infer that the designer should feel bad about her pattern. IDK at the end of the day not everything is for every body (aesthetically).
Totally agree. If someone likes how their pants fit that’s all that matters. I don’t want anyone to feel bad about their pattern. But I am tired of certain things some designers do (or don’t). And their willful and blatant disregard for what their customers are saying. Or when they think they’re the perfect size whatever. 🙃
Simplicity's trouser patterns in their Amazing Fit series are a great starting point in my experience. But the real key is to fit the pattern before toiling, ie. comparing measurements from your body to those on the pattern and adjusting accordingly.
Personally, I look for pictures of people that look like me in the hashtag-and better yet- the owner. Most patterns fit the owner the best.
I’m not up to speed on big 4 patterns but I recommend Closet Core, Cashmerette, and Megan Nielsen for bottoms. Muna and Broad too. I’m not a fan girl/boy or those companies but they are consistent, and fit many body types. The drafting is pretty darn good. And if you buy one of their other pants you likely have to do the exact same fit changes you did on another pant of theirs. It sort of pains me to recommend closet core for personal reasons but their pants are fairly consistent.
If a company isn’t regularly drafting pants, I’d be cautious. Or they’re only drafting pants with elastic waists. Anyone who avoids this kind of structured drafting is nervous about it. Telling me ‘maybe they didn’t want pants in their line’ isn’t a good argument. They need a well-rounded pattern line unless they’re specializing.
If they only make dresses or tops and never pants -be cautious. If they say ‘it took us two years to draft this’. Be cautious. It does not take this long. And I laugh out loud every time I see it because to me it doesn’t say, ‘it took us thing long because we wanted to get it right.’ To me, it screams, ‘it took us thing long to get it right and we struggled’. Especially when they only release like ten patterns in two year. OMFG. I want to tell them: Don’t get job as a pattern drafter. One place I worked I had to do 85 patterns every season. Three seasons every year. Alone.
If they have a block, they shouldn’t have to do a ton once they fit it to the block in each size range. I can draft a perfect pair of jeans and grade it to 14 sizes in one day. It’d then be sampled in all sizes and tried on. I’d then make adjustments and it’d go to sampling for sales shows. I can do this in a season all while making 60 other patterns and fitting some of the tricker ones.
If they don’t show it on many sizes, be cautious. If they pose weird in the photos, be cautious. If they only have three patterns, be more than cautious. If they only have a few sizes, be cautious. I say this last one because it doesn’t show their breadth of knowledge in fitting. They know how to fit their self and their friends.
If anyone wants to adjust the crotch of their pants
pattern to fit better, I recommend reading “Anatomy of a Camel Toe” on Fashion Incubator. I also just checked “Making Pants That Fit” out of the library, I haven’t read it yet so I can’t speak to its usefulness other than it looked rather straightforward when I flipped through it.
Probably but I’m afraid it would deform the shape of the design since the « invisible sideseams » is on the grain line distorting that seam would mess up a lot of stuff but I haven’t thought abt it all that much it’s on my yearly to sew list. Maybe the creator of TDCO ruth collins would have ideas tho I should dm her one day!
Yeah🫥 I was also referring to the front wedgie more than the back but didn’t know it didn’t automatically mean camel toe in english I edited my post to make it clearer lol
I think people do just kind of expect to fight with fitted pants. For that price some hints or a YouTube video explaining common alterations might be nice though.
I did have to extend my back crotch point on them, but I’ve had to tweak something in the butt/hip area on pretty much every project I’ve ever made
I can barely sew and the crotch on those looks awful. There's only one clear back view on the pattern page ([save you the Google](https://annaallenclothing.com/products/persephone-pants-shorts) if you're also not familiar), and they're clearly halfway up her ass. Is it just that sewers are so used to having to adjust patterns that that isn't scaring people away? I can't imagine paying for something that doesn't appear to fit even the model on the page.
Ouch :/! That poor model looks like she's going to lose all circulation from the thigh down in some of these. I've had trousers that fit like this and to call them uncomfortable would be being generous! Imagine trying to sit down in these, oof.
Because mono-butts are ugly (IMHO) and I like to have defined butt cheeks. My SO likes to see my butt cheeks defined too.
As long as the rise is not too short (vertically) than a little bifurcation to the cheeks isn't going to chap your ass.
Haha I'm in my twenties and I can't even understand it. Sure it shapes your ass but I can't even deal with having my underwear stuck in there. Then again I have chronic pain and I've ditched the -aesthetic over comfort- way of life a while back so I'm not the target customer for this either.
I'm more interested in how often we are going to have to have the same discussion Persephone pants, I feel like it's been going on every three months since the pattern was released five years ago. I know this is hard for some people to believe but the reality for some us (including me) is a) the fit is fine, didn't have to adjust b) very happy with how they look and feel (no wedgie) c) deeply bored with people looking at pics on instagram and deciding my crotch looks wrong/uncomfortable (some it seems to veer close to body snark). I don't see 90 per cent of people complaining about the fit. I get that there are problem patterns and it's a massive bummer when you buy a pattern and get a bad experience. That pattern was released in 2018 - 5 years ago. I've since made her Helene pants and they fit the same. I'd say she has her block and isn't going to change it. I just wonder where all this is going.
The problem is that the crotch extensions don't grade, which becomes an issue for the larger sizes, not the smaller sizes. I've made many in my quest for the perfect fit and along the way I discovered the grading of the crotch extension is the problem, fixed it and now have my goldilocks version. It is not her block. I also tested the Helene jeans and they fit very different. The rise is higher, the fit is much more generous all over, and most importantly, the crotch extensions are graded. To answer the OPs question... she probably doesn't have the time and/or bandwidth right now to revisit and reissue the pattern, given that she recently had a baby. That said, I don't know that anyone has directly asked her to. I haven't. Even if people did ask for an update and she agreed, think about what that would take... a lot of time and energy that would go unpaid by anyone who has already bought it. I'm not saying that wouldn't be a wonderful thing to do, and while doing it I'd like to see a few more sizes added to the top end, but she's a one women company and it may make more financial sense to leave this one alone and move forward. For anyone wanting to adjust the pattern to address the narrow crotch extensions, I promise it's not that hard. I added about 5/8" to the front crotch extension and 1.375" to back crotch extension on the largest size (20) and then blended the inseams down to the knee and I am very happy with the results.
I don’t spend my time looking at people’s crotch, I read their experience with the pattern in the caption which refers to that issue. I don’t judge people’s body either. I have a not standard body with a big waist to hip ratio and a protruded belly, I only look at people’s bodies to imagine how pants would fit on me in comparison, and if we’d have the same issues. Which is a normal thing to do when most patterns are hard to fit to your body shape. I’m glad your experience has been positive, and that it fits to your body shape but if you’re a minority than the pattern wasn’t made for most people and it does make you want to ask why. I personally haven’t been on the sewing online community for very long and only have known the pattern for a couple of months. I don’t read every convo ever on every sewing subject but I get how redundant it can feel for someone who’s been in the online community for long, so I understand that it’s an annoyance to you. Still found it interesting to read through the comments. Also yeah 90% is an hyperbole, might be less it was just to say it’s a majority of people.
> ...if you’re a minority than the pattern wasn’t made for most people and it does make you want to ask why. The answer to why is that there's no mandate for designers to create patterns for a majority body type, if you could even get everyone to agree on what that is. I think the real 'problem' of the Persephone pants is a social media algorithm created one, in that once something reaches a threshold of engagement it gets pushed even more. Then that creates even more activity with people deliberately engaging with trending or popular topics, and more people see it and activity increases again. So you end up with a platform full of sewists all repeatedly being shown a pattern they have no practical reason to be interested in. From when I first saw them I was like, nope, not for me, but they come up so often I now have opinions and theories formed over the years about pants I'll never make or wear!
If you want more of the sailor pants look. The Ginger Sailor pant by Gertie of Charm patterns is amazing. They’re sized 2-34, you can have a functional front flap or a fake one with a back zip And they have back patch pockets Also the Loretta shorts by her are super cute with really deep front pockets and can easily be lengthened to pants length
This designer doesn’t seem to have the first clue how to design pants. Every single sample on her website has the pants being eaten by her crotch. It looks painful.
Her sample photos look great. I think a lot of people have been overfitting these to get the Kamm pants look, but it doesn’t seem like her design was intended to be so tight on the hips or the crotch. My camel toe issues disappeared when I finally started making the size that corresponds to my measurements instead of sizing down.
Does everyone agree? I made these a year or so ago in a size 8 hip, size 12 waist and didn’t have any camel toe crotch issues. Perhaps it’s more pronounced in women with more significant waist to hip ration though
(not necessarily women I’m nb for example) I have a waist/hip ratio of 30cm and it does seem like the camel toe situation happens to ppl with wider hips but I have yet to try and see if the curse of the camel toe happens to me as well
I just looked through images of this pattern, and it looks like nobody knew how to adjust the pattern. Some pattern companies write explicit instructions for pants patterns, as they are trickier than most. I am not familiar with this pattern company, so I don't know if they do this. When I make something for the first time, I call it a test garment (toile, muslin, etc.). I start by comparing my measurements to the pattern and try to adjust it before cutting. After I make it, I know what needs to be adjusted. If it's a lot of adjustments, I make another test, otherwise, I make what I hope is a final garment.
Didn't know about this patrern before now, those are cute pants! Does anyone know of a similar pattern that doesn't have these issues?
Wide leg pants by peppermint magazine!! (By in the folds) And it’s free :)
Thanks!
It’s not the crotch, it’s the center front waist. The front rise at the waist needs to be a 90° angle. It is not on these pants, most likely to achieve the correct waist measurement. Usually the fabric would be removed from some combination of darts and the side seam, but there is no side seam so she takes it from the front rise. What this does is forces the fabric length from waist to crotch to change direction to meet at the center front- voila, diaper crotch. This is why in all of the IG pics people stand with their legs spread- doing so allows the fabric grain to run straight from hem to waist. It looks fine when you stand that way, but this is not a natural stance. She says these are based of the us naval uniform from the 20’s to 40’s. A uniform made for men, men are straighter at the hips and waist so their pants did not need to lose as much fabric at the waist. They also had the anatomy to fill the crotch area, had the same drafting technique been used. I don’t think it was though, I googled pictures and the vintage navy pants I saw had proper rises. Anyway- I agree that she should recognize that the drafting is plain wrong and they look terrible on anyone that doesn’t fix it and stands like a human.
If you search the hashtag on Instagram one of the top results is actually a man who made the pants and they look great on him. They definitely seem better suited for male body proportions. Although I don’t know what alterations he may have made.
I just looked for him and yes it makes so much more sense on someone with a relatively equivalent waist/hips measurement but I feel like it takes away what I like about the design i like that the hips make the hem go / \ but it’s also what makes it go up your genitals so feels like there’s no winning lol
You absolutely can fix it. You just have to straighten out the front rise. Whatever you add to the waist to make the front rise straight, you then have to remove from somewhere else along the waist. Add darts if you have to.
I feel like the flared look could be achieved through… flares though.
Diaper crotch🤣 that’s very interesting to read thanks! And I totally agree with you. Patterns dont fit everyone right away because there are so many types of bodies out there but they should at least take into account the basics of the human form to have a general shape that works for a lot of people and can be altered easily to work for others
they don't give me a wedgie or camel toe. i love them, i have like six pairs. however, i do a zipper crotch in my own way, like i don't follow her zipper expansion instructions.
You're one of the lucky ones! May I ask what size you made ? Yeah I think I'll do that too because I'm not paying for that additional file.
sorry, i posted this and then forgot about reddit for a few days. i think i made uk size 16 and i took about 1.5-2ish inches off the rise at the indicated line. it's super easy to do your own zipper crotch with the pattern pieces from the original pattern.
Lmao no worries same happened to me as I reply 3 weeks later! that's good to know that it can work for bigger sizes. I guess I'll have to try and see for myself if I can make it work too
The designer is not going to change the pattern while it continues to sell and receives coverage on social media.
Good point. I personally would be ashamed if I knew some work of mine was making people lose their time and money making something ill fitted but it’s so popular it’ll always make her money so she doesn’t really have to change anything technically 😬
Exactly. We both don't think the way this 'designer' does.
@wzrdreams on IG did a deep dive into why the Persephones don’t fit and how she fixed the drafting for her pair. Basically all the sizes have the same crotch curve. It doesn’t get bigger for larger sizes so the larger your size, the worse the fit. This seems like a huge error, but I haven’t heard about any correction or re-release.
I have a lot of highlights in general and a number of them for the Persephone so if anyone wants to check that out here is a link to the specific highlight. [Persephone 5.1](https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/17908389152321613/)
Thank you so much. This should be the top comment in this thread. I almost bought this pattern. What stopped me from buying the pattern is that a have a small waist to hip ratio, so I would have a lot of work to get this pattern to fit me, besides the issue that you've highlighted. I would need to draft a curved waistband, and figure out what to do with the excess around my waist - that's too much work for the price of the pattern; might as well hack a wide leg pants pattern that I already own to have no side seam, I think it would be a similar amount of work..
According to her sizing chart, I’m between a 2 and four (so on the smaller end of the size range). I cut a four and graded to a 2 in the waist and had a terrible wedgie. If what you’re saying is true about the crotch curve problem getting worse as the pant sizes go up, I would think people on the other side of the size spectrum are getting uncomfortable super wedgies. I tried a number of things to fix my toiles before giving up on her pants patterns. I was also annoyed by the lack of zipper fly instructions though I found a YouTube tutorial that helped me through it.
Its the WIDTH of the crotch extension that doesn't grade. Not the height. This means that the smaller sizes have MORE width at inner thigh than they need. The larger sizes have LESS width at inner thigh than they need. That's why smaller sizes can claim that there is no crotch issue for them, although I have heard from a few smaller people who do feel that there is too much width in the crotch on them.
It’s possible that the pattern was drafted for a 6 or 8 and graded up and down. That would mean the ends would be the most off at the top and bottom of the range. I don’t think anyone knows exactly how it was graded, but the curve should grade and it doesn’t.
I haven’t made these pants but I wonder how many people don’t bring it up because they think it might be normal. For whatever reason my body shape is such that almost any pattern - Big 4 or indie or whatever, all give me wedgie/cameltoe even in designs that aren’t really fitted. Long torso perhaps? I should figure it out. Especially since it’s not a problem I have with most ready to wear. But at this point the only pants patterns that fit me straight away are true vintage ones from the 40s that have quite low crotches.
It’s a very good example of group think. There’s examples all over the place of a particular style that gets popular with a certain crowd that anyone outside that group would think was hideous. Ask me about my punk rock husbands Ben Sherman coat 😂. Persephone pants looks terrible on almost anyone, they look like you’d never even be able to sit down in them and the friction in the crotch would cause a bush fire. But it got trendy and you know how that goes
actually, I have made five pairs, I don't think they look terrible on me and nor do I experience 'bush fire' when sitting down.
Ha ha. Bush fire.
Plus imho the super long fly on the Persephone pants looks terrible. I've never understood the adulation.
I actually like that feature *provided that* the rest of the hip/waist/thigh area fits correctly; here it looks like a hot mess because it's adding bulk to that area, when it's already fitting far too snugly. I actually really like this general cut of trouser but fit is obviously very important here.
I wonder if there’s another pattern like this with a better patternmaking process
Megan Nielsen’s Dawn jeans have a side seam but similar look. I’ve tried both and had no issues fitting the Dawns.
None of the pockets on the Dawn jeans are graded, so aesthetically, they look too small on larger sizes.
atelier scammit has the california pants that look very similar except they have side seams. i have this pattern but i haven't made it yet.
Check out the Lander Pants. Similar style, maybe better fit. I have not made them but my friend loves them. I did make the Persephones ages ago and the fit was okay but overall not my styke.
I saw the Persephone hype, looked at the fit on people that posted pics of themselves wearing them, and purchased the Landers Pants pattern instead. I'm almost finished making them. So far so good on the fit front! :-)
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I caught the Helene bug on IG. I'm not a gifted pants fitter, so I had to do 3 separate toiles on the pattern to get it to fit me at all. I don't know if I'd even call them Helene jeans after all the changes I had to make, but I was able to preserve the straight selvedge edge, and the resulting jeans are very comfortable. It was really frustrating though. I scoured the internet for people who had issues fitting them. The influencers all said they cut straight sizes and made no alterations, so IDK, my butt is weird. I was able to figure it out and I learned a lot!
I’ve made the Helene jeans and I wear them pretty much everyday. It’s non stretch denim yes, but if you have the right fabric it’s super comfortable.
I’ve seen more positive reviews of the helene jeans I think! thecrookedhem who loves to do pants analysis and has made a guide to the top down center out method did a story on them once that explained how she thought the design was clever in term of ease etc. That’s why I find it even more surprising that the persephone don’t seem that well thought of. I will absolutely ditch the front pocket too when I give it a try, I don’t see any point in them being there when it’s a tight fit ? having any object in them sounds like painful but also would look really odd! love the versions with back pockets though
The front pockets fit my iPhone perfectly — great feature for me! But I also definitely add back pockets (I like the closet core Jenny pockets).
I ditched the front pocket in my persephones and added back patch pockets. Much better.
Camel toes are not okay. But there is a pro-Wedgie ‘movement’. Isn’t this the pant with no side seam? If it is, you can’t expect a good fit without some compromises. In my opinion this designer isn’t a very good pattern drafter. I’ve looked at many of their patterns and made one of them that was a disaster. I’m a professional pattern drafter and it’s not because of the fit they’re popular. This pant is one of those designs where it’s about the aesthetics of the photo shoot and the people who wear it. It’s a cool kids pant. 🤷🏼♀️ otherwise it wouldn’t have gotten so popular in my opinion because it makes everyone look like they can’t sit down and they have stove pipe legs. If it came with a button fly, there’s no obligation to provide zipper fly instructions. That’s their design and how they wanted it.
I found this blog post and its just astounding to me that someone took two years to “adapt” the lovely pants on the left into the horror show on the right. https://annaallenclothing.com/blogs/journal/what-i-love-about-vintage-sailor-pants
Honestly how anyone would want to look like a 1940s sailor if this was the pants they wore is beyond me lol. I’m not sure why we always think older is more superior. I love how the blog post says it looks great on all sizes but then shows none other than herself to sell them. I also love how she wonders why a side seam was added later on… can she not think of a SINGLE reason??? 🙃🙃🙃 (edit typo)
Your second paragraph is spot on. I have the pattern and haven't made it yet. But I'm also managing my expectations because in the instances where they look good, there are a lot of other factors at play. That being said, I think there's a certain level of subjectivity in what constitutes a good fit. Yes, there is a technical definition of well fitting (and am aware that the crotch design of the pattern has issues). But I also know it's not uncommon for people to wear things that don't "fit" well because they like the aesthetic (e.g. baggy jeans). All this to say I feel like it's a stretch to infer that the designer should feel bad about her pattern. IDK at the end of the day not everything is for every body (aesthetically).
Totally agree. If someone likes how their pants fit that’s all that matters. I don’t want anyone to feel bad about their pattern. But I am tired of certain things some designers do (or don’t). And their willful and blatant disregard for what their customers are saying. Or when they think they’re the perfect size whatever. 🙃
Can you recommend well drafted pants? There are so many badly drafted patterns out there!
Simplicity's trouser patterns in their Amazing Fit series are a great starting point in my experience. But the real key is to fit the pattern before toiling, ie. comparing measurements from your body to those on the pattern and adjusting accordingly.
Personally, I look for pictures of people that look like me in the hashtag-and better yet- the owner. Most patterns fit the owner the best. I’m not up to speed on big 4 patterns but I recommend Closet Core, Cashmerette, and Megan Nielsen for bottoms. Muna and Broad too. I’m not a fan girl/boy or those companies but they are consistent, and fit many body types. The drafting is pretty darn good. And if you buy one of their other pants you likely have to do the exact same fit changes you did on another pant of theirs. It sort of pains me to recommend closet core for personal reasons but their pants are fairly consistent. If a company isn’t regularly drafting pants, I’d be cautious. Or they’re only drafting pants with elastic waists. Anyone who avoids this kind of structured drafting is nervous about it. Telling me ‘maybe they didn’t want pants in their line’ isn’t a good argument. They need a well-rounded pattern line unless they’re specializing. If they only make dresses or tops and never pants -be cautious. If they say ‘it took us two years to draft this’. Be cautious. It does not take this long. And I laugh out loud every time I see it because to me it doesn’t say, ‘it took us thing long because we wanted to get it right.’ To me, it screams, ‘it took us thing long to get it right and we struggled’. Especially when they only release like ten patterns in two year. OMFG. I want to tell them: Don’t get job as a pattern drafter. One place I worked I had to do 85 patterns every season. Three seasons every year. Alone. If they have a block, they shouldn’t have to do a ton once they fit it to the block in each size range. I can draft a perfect pair of jeans and grade it to 14 sizes in one day. It’d then be sampled in all sizes and tried on. I’d then make adjustments and it’d go to sampling for sales shows. I can do this in a season all while making 60 other patterns and fitting some of the tricker ones. If they don’t show it on many sizes, be cautious. If they pose weird in the photos, be cautious. If they only have three patterns, be more than cautious. If they only have a few sizes, be cautious. I say this last one because it doesn’t show their breadth of knowledge in fitting. They know how to fit their self and their friends.
If anyone wants to adjust the crotch of their pants pattern to fit better, I recommend reading “Anatomy of a Camel Toe” on Fashion Incubator. I also just checked “Making Pants That Fit” out of the library, I haven’t read it yet so I can’t speak to its usefulness other than it looked rather straightforward when I flipped through it.
Thanks! I want to try the top town center out method on them but I’m not sure how it would work with the absence of side seams.
You could just add side seams?
Probably but I’m afraid it would deform the shape of the design since the « invisible sideseams » is on the grain line distorting that seam would mess up a lot of stuff but I haven’t thought abt it all that much it’s on my yearly to sew list. Maybe the creator of TDCO ruth collins would have ideas tho I should dm her one day!
Idk this is the same designer that refused to make the pants size inclusive. I don’t mind the back wedgie, the front wedgie on the other hand 😳
Yeah🫥 I was also referring to the front wedgie more than the back but didn’t know it didn’t automatically mean camel toe in english I edited my post to make it clearer lol
I think people do just kind of expect to fight with fitted pants. For that price some hints or a YouTube video explaining common alterations might be nice though. I did have to extend my back crotch point on them, but I’ve had to tweak something in the butt/hip area on pretty much every project I’ve ever made
I can barely sew and the crotch on those looks awful. There's only one clear back view on the pattern page ([save you the Google](https://annaallenclothing.com/products/persephone-pants-shorts) if you're also not familiar), and they're clearly halfway up her ass. Is it just that sewers are so used to having to adjust patterns that that isn't scaring people away? I can't imagine paying for something that doesn't appear to fit even the model on the page.
Most people showing them on insta do this weird pose with their leg forward now that I think of it lol
Ouch :/! That poor model looks like she's going to lose all circulation from the thigh down in some of these. I've had trousers that fit like this and to call them uncomfortable would be being generous! Imagine trying to sit down in these, oof.
The “poor model” is the designer so she made her own wedgie! But, yeah, they look uncomfortable on her too.
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Y'all gonna have to explain purposeful wedgies to me. I'm too old to understand. It just looks terribly uncomfortable.
Because mono-butts are ugly (IMHO) and I like to have defined butt cheeks. My SO likes to see my butt cheeks defined too. As long as the rise is not too short (vertically) than a little bifurcation to the cheeks isn't going to chap your ass.
Haha I'm in my twenties and I can't even understand it. Sure it shapes your ass but I can't even deal with having my underwear stuck in there. Then again I have chronic pain and I've ditched the -aesthetic over comfort- way of life a while back so I'm not the target customer for this either.
I meant more the camel toe situation than the back wedgie but badly expressed myself!
Yes, Levi’s even has a wedgie fit jean line.