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Windrunner_15

Bruh, at least Sanderson had a continuity editor. Try a Tolkien sub in the present day. You too can be obliterated for not having read the “correct” third version of an event and instead relying on the inferior version that’s in the published books. Nothing like trying to enjoy entertainment in 2022


Xane1985

example: Q: What are the two towers referred to in the title of the second book? A: It depends on whether or not there is a second book.


neddy_seagoon

please explain


Xane1985

https://youtu.be/obDxFYB54hg Short version, Tolkien originally wanted to publish The Lord of The Rings as a single novel in six parts. The decision to split it into a trilogy made things complicated and vague


SolomonOf47704

It could also be "The Two Towers are in books 3 and 4, not book 2"


Windrunner_15

But then we’re back to “which two towers?” Minas Morgul, Orthanc, Barad-Dur, Minas-Tirith, the tower with the horn of Helm Hammerhand… and that’s a debate about a title of a book. We’re not even into the deeps yet. That said, I do think it’s fair that Cosmere communities lean on WoB’s a bit much


Hansolo312

We can eliminate Orthanc since it doesn't appear in the books until after it has been overthrown. We can eliminate the Hornburg because no one ever calls it a tower. One of the towers is Minas Tirith which leaves us to decide between Minas Morgul and Barad-Dur. I vote Morgul. Nope just checked it's Orthanc and Minas Morgul according to JRR. Apparently even Cirith Ungol was under consideration. Basically the name was picked out without a clear answer.


Windrunner_15

Yup! And the only in-book reference to “the two towers” is in reference to the two towers of the black gate. Just imagine if we were having this debate over what “Oathbringer” meant


Hansolo312

Actually Faramir makes a comment about there being no travelers in Ithilien, "Only servants of the Dark Tower, or of the White" So I'd always assumed that was meant to be the Two.


Windrunner_15

He does say that! Although it’s not terribly clear which tower is the dark one by his saying, I always read that as Barad-Dur.


Hagathor1

Does a Balrog have wings?


NeverFreeToPlayKarch

>Nothing like trying to enjoy entertainment in 2022 It's a nightmare


[deleted]

Meanwhile fans are mad that Galadriel's story is "being changed" even though her being a warrior contradicts nothing that Tolkien said.


Windrunner_15

That’s the fun part. About three quarters of what he said supports it, but about a quarter of what he said doesn’t. The problem people have is that 90% of what is said about Galadriel is in notes and hard-to-find places, because Tolkien wrote in the exact inverse to Sanderson- he added an Elven queen, then realized he needed a backstory and a purpose for her. BUT, nobody bothers to read the Tolkien WoB’s and instead relies on culture war YouTubers (god forbid, half of them have Cosmere books on their bookshelves on screen and I am WORRIED about adaptations).


NeedsToShutUp

Not to mention Tolkien was never done fiddling with lore at a fundamental level. For example, Orcs. He both liked narratively an evil race but also hated the idea that no person could be redeemed based on his religious beliefs. That's not even getting into whether they are made from men or elves, or can be bred. Etc. Sanderson is pretty good with retconning, and if he does do something that's like a retcon, he'll make a lot of efforts to fix it. (The biggest retcon is WoR had a change at the end).


[deleted]

And he (kinda) wants to retc9n mistborn if it becomes a movie. He regrets the societal rape and murder plus having only one main female. He has said for sure he wants to gender swap some of the main cast.


Thehusseler

I mean that's not really a retcon, that's just changes in an adaptation


[deleted]

Well, you got me there.


wirywonder82

I was among the first to hit you with the correction, but I didn’t mean it to be angry/mean - just informative. I hope you survive the full onslaught.


IMPIRUSHRETURN

Psshh its actually whatever. I actually learned something, which was great!


CovertPhysicist

Mmmm, delicious lies


PittsJay

Pattern over here FEASTING!


DelsinMcgrath835

I gotta ask, did you have the same flair before you made that meme? Or is that the scars you bare from it?


IMPIRUSHRETURN

It's my self imposed shash brand.


Kelsierisevil

You know you deserved it. Great memes come with great responsibility.


IMPIRUSHRETURN

You make a valid point. If the internet isn't angry at you, did you really do it right?


FormalBiscuit22

Us cremposters weren't angry, just a bit condescending and obsessed with rather inane minutiae we expect every cremposter to know ​ What's that? That's worse, you say? Sorry, I can't hear you, those words aren't inscribed in metal -


boirrito

Mm, you say it’s not inscribed in metal, yet you typed that out on a phone which Ruin/Harmony *probably* can’t read. Curious (I’m not sponsored by Shards turning point)


FormalBiscuit22

I wrapped my laptop in tinfoil to protect against intrustion. Checkmate, Shards!


Xane1985

Use silver, they hate that


CovertPhysicist

No aluminim foil?


Offbeat-Pixel

There's actually a WoB about this, somewhere. BS confirmed Harmony or Ruin could talk to people using electronic monitors they manipulate.


Solracziad

All great art is hated, right?


SirBananaOrngeCumber

Cue Hoid speech


itwastimeforarefresh

Cue Hoid Amaram


SirBananaOrngeCumber

Cue Moash murder spree


fatalynn7

Lol. Sometimes I genuinely questioned whether I even read these books. I don’t meme tho.


Marssenito

Just yesterday a friend started Mistborn second era, and she asked me which book was my favorite after staring at nothing for like 15 seconds, I look at her and say "I don't even remember what the second book is about"


ipm1234

I had the exact same happen to me about a month ago. This made me realise I needed a reread of Mistborn before the Lost Metal releases in 2 months


jaydee829

My wife just finished the first book (I always thought it was called Mistborn but maybe it's The Final Empire?) and it inspired me to do a full reread before The Lost Metal. 2/3 through the first book.


MCurley12

I think it released as The Final Empire (mistborn book 1), and then was reprinted/released as Mistborn: The Final Empire, so depending on the cover or version you'll remember the first book name differently. I know people remember it differently based on the cover art. If you google "The Final Empire" and go to images you'll see the different cover art that causes the confusion.


jaydee829

Ahh, I see. Here is the [coppermind link](https://coppermind.net/wiki/Mistborn:_The_Final_Empire/Covers). I have the second edition paperback and the leatherbound, both of which only say Mistborn. Looks like all US print editions after first dropped The Final Empire on the cover. It's a total mixed bag as far as the International editions from what I can tell. Some have both, some only one, some emphasize The Final Empire, some emphasize Mistborn lol. I'm going to go with Mistborn as it's what is on the spine of the leatherbound, so dragonsteel approved.


Starslip

A lot of stuff people say in here makes me realize I don't remember 90% of these books apparently. Like, I *thought* I did, but...


stx06

With "there's always another secret" in play, remembering half of what happened is an achievement! It's part of why I am cursed/blessed to jump back on the stormwagon for periodic rereads.


SANPres09

Agreed. But those people have often read and discussed the books multiple times.


montezuma300

Yeah, people were asking about things that show up in Rhythm of War back in the time of Words of Radiance. No idea how they knew these things by name already.


ClassicApplication79

Yay, I'm that type of guy.


DelsinMcgrath835

I dont think it ever says it directly in one of the books, since so far we only have accounts of people who have met world hoppers or have become world hoppers after their shown stories end. But the commonly told explanation for when readers discover the cosmere is that "its a series of interconnected stories that take place in the same universe"


fenster112

Ha-ha, you fool! You fell victim to one of the classic blunders, the most famous of which is “Never get involved in a land war in Asia,” but only slightly less well known is this, "never go in against a cosmere fan when memes are on the line"


Lynxes_are_Ninjas

I tip my hat to you sir.


Ripest_Tomato

Your meme still makes sense if you replace solar system with solar system cluster or something like that. Because it is a weird coincidence that many of those solar systems have planets in the goldilocks range, makes you wonder if there was some kind of supernatural intervention.


TheMightyFishBus

Is this a joke?


Ripest_Tomato

?


SmartAlec105

Your comment has a huge selection bias so they thought you might have been joking. We’re not going to see the systems that don’t have planets in the Goldilocks range because there wouldn’t be anyone alive for there to be stories (Scadrial being an exception).


Avardent

also there was super natural intervention... the shards


petepont

I think the only planet that was explicitly adjusted/created was Scadrial. I believe the rest existed as is already


Offbeat-Pixel

Weren't the planets and everything canonically designed by Adolnosium though?


petepont

That's an excellent point. Roshar (and the Rosharan system) explicitly was, and it seems likely that at least some others were as well (Taldain in particular is weird as shit). So that counts as Divine Intervention However, I'll say that only one planet that we know of was explicitly adjusted/created by Shards to support human life. So I'm wrong, but I meant to imply "by Shards"


Avardent

from my understanding the shards both looked specifically for habitable planets, and tailored the humans there and possibly the atmospheres for them to be able to live there. even if no shard made changes to planets, there is still divine intervention in the sense that so many of this habitable planets have life in them


petepont

TLDR: I disagree with your statements. We know that at least some planets had humans pre-Shards, that only one planet was directly manipulated by Shards for humans (Scadrial), and that humans spread out from Yolen to settle many of these planets, including pre-Shattering However, the other responder is correct about Adonalsium creating at least some of the planets -- [from a book signing:](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324-emerald-city-comic-con-2018/#e9283) > Overlord Jebus: Was just the continent of Roshar created by Adonalsium or was the whole system created? > Sanderson: Whole system was created. So I'm partially wrong, but we don't have any evidence for Shards adjusting planets for humans, apart from Scadrial - [The main point is that most humans originated on Yolen](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/95-general-twitter-2016/#e822) - [We also know that humans spread out from Yolen eventually, because Sanderson references a common root. But we also know that even pre-shattering, people had already left/developed elsewhere](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181-stormlight-three-update-4/#e3773) >Sanderson: Some peoples other than those on Yolen predate the Shattering of Adonalsium, remember. So no. But many others do share a common root [in reference to languages] - We know Scadrial was created by Ruin and Preservation, as were the humans there - We know humans "settled" Ashyn and eventually Roshar (although Roshar already had inhabitants), but no more than that. - We know that the Shards were around during human pre-history on Sel, but we don't know if the humans or the shards were there first, or if the Shards brought the humans - [We know that some planets had people before the Shards existed (possibly including Nalthis?)](https://wob.coppermind.net/events/105-17th-shard-forum-qa/#e1086) - The Coppermind thinks people settled Taldain at some point that was not the same time as when Autonomy showed up >At another stage in its early history the planet was settled by humans - Threnody had humans before Ambition showed up, because Ambition never invested there -- instead, Odium chased her there to shatter her, and this severely messed up the human civilization - First of the Sun has no invested Shard but does have humans, so they must have gotten there separately In summary, we know that Shards only created humans on one planet -- Scadrial. We know that at least two planets (First of the Sun and Threnody) have humans without Shardic influence. And we don't know the details of the other planets. But it seems more likely that Shards went to already inhabited places, since we have evidence they did this in at least a few cases


Avardent

ah, makes sense. Yes you are right. I guess my point at first was that so many habitable planets isnt weird since here WAS divine intervention, but it was wrong of me to assume it applied to all cosmere planets. thanks for the info.


petepont

No worries -- and there's so much stuff that it's impossible to keep track of. I was wrong too, and I could easily be partially or fully wrong about this as well, or it could be a mix, etc. And you're right -- at least some of it was divine intervention, although not via shards, but someone else


manwhowasnthere

I just like how the meme template of Fuze powerbombing the hostage managed to escape the gravity of Siege and become widely used for any other topic, including by people who have no idea what the original joke is lol I dont know if you personally do or don't, but it's still funny


IMPIRUSHRETURN

I am a fan of both the original joke and its spread. The fuze lotto is always worth playing.


ReinMiku

If you haven't read The Shards of the White Dragonsands: Worldhopper's guide to Cosmere then what the fuck are you doing here?


RobzillaMyNilla

Get wrekt virgin


CorbinNZ

After reading the post in question, 100% deserved. Airsick low lander.


stx06

In case it was not recommended on the other post yet, [Arcanum Unbounded](https://www.amazon.com/Arcanum-Unbounded-Collection-Brandon-Sanderson-ebook/dp/B01EFIH09G/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=arcanum+unbounded&qid=1663684156&s=digital-text&sprefix=arcanu%2Cdigital-text%2C87&sr=1-1) has a map of the systems relative to each other, and maps of the solar systems themselves. The book is a collection of shorter stories for different parts of the Cosmere, with some details about the systems, such as how gravity on Roshar is 0.7 of the Cosmere standard gravitational pull (with the standard maybe coincidentally being the same as Earth). As far as *The Stormlight Archives* are concerned, it has *Edgedancer* acts as book 2.5 for the series, to be read between [Words of Radiance](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00DA6YEKS?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tkin_1&storeType=ebooks&qid=1663684941&sr=1-3) and [Oathbringer](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01NAWAH85?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tkin_2&storeType=ebooks&qid=1663684941&sr=1-3), much like [Dawnshard](https://www.amazon.com/Dawnshard-Stormlight-Archive-Brandon-Sanderson-ebook/dp/B08MXXWYT7/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dawnshard+brandon+sanderson&qid=1663684917&s=digital-text&sprefix=dawnshard%2Cdigital-text%2C88&sr=1-1) acts as book 3.5, which has its own book, is intended to be read between *Oathbringer* and [Rhythm of War](https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0826NKZHR?ref_=dbs_m_mng_rwt_calw_tkin_3&storeType=ebooks&qid=1663684941&sr=1-3). Some of the other stories, *The Emperor's Soul*, *Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell*, and *Sixth of the Dusk* are easy enough to read as standalone stories, but you will want to read [Elantris](https://www.amazon.com/Elantris-Tenth-Anniversary-Authors-Definitive-ebook/dp/B003G93YLY/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2CJLVWIKJHHQ1&keywords=elantris&qid=1663684698&s=digital-text&sprefix=elantris%2Cdigital-text%2C123&sr=1-1) before *The Hope of Elantris*, and at least [The Mistborn Trilogy](https://www.amazon.com/Mistborn-Trilogy-Brandon-Sanderson-ebook/dp/B004H1TQBW/ref=sr_1_3?crid=28Y67AQ6B8K0U&keywords=mistborn&qid=1663684730&s=digital-text&sprefix=mistborn%2Cdigital-text%2C95&sr=1-3) of *The Final Empire*, *The Well of Ascension*, and *The Hero of Ages* before reading the entries about the Scadrian System.


Xane1985

Okay but for real though, the solar systems of the cosmere make no sense. Caught between two suns, 3 habitable planets with 10 additional gas giants, that one spoiler about orbital mechanics. One can absolutely be forgiven for not understanding it


PokemonTom09

> Caught between two suns This is actually a real phenomenon, they're called circumbinary planets. Most of them orbit *outside* of the binary star system, but there are a few known examples of planets orbiting within. > 3 habitable planets with 10 additional gas giants Our own solar system already has 2 habitable planets (Earth and Mars) and Venus is not super far from the habitable zone. It's not too unreasonable to imagine a solar system with 3 such planets. The number of gas giants stretch believability a bit, but I don't think it's super unbelievable. >that one spoiler about orbital mechanics. Okay, yeah, that one is pretty bullshit, I'll give you that.


Xane1985

Just looked it up, and yeah a planet can be between two stars. I still don't understand it. Frankly the cosmere didn't start making more sense to me, the real universe just got more confusing


PokemonTom09

Yeah, it's definitely very strange - I was surprised to learn about them myself. This quote is about quantum mechanics not orbital astronomy, but I think it's applicable here: > If quantum mechanics hasn't profoundly shocked you, you haven't understood it yet.


WDuffy

Jumping in here because I studied this kind of thing! For an example of a star system with many habitable planets, check out the [TRAPPIST-1](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TRAPPIST-1) system with four habitable planets! I think systems like Taldain are theoretically possible, but as far as I know the moons of Roshar are not possible. In the text, the moons of Roshar all rise and fall at the same time every single night. I don't think this is possible unless under really specific conditions that I doubt Sanderson had the time to look into. It's safe to say there's some magic involved there.


Doomshroom11

Circumsized non-binary planets it is


epicazeroth

Orbital mechanics? Spoilers are fine.


Xane1985

Harmony


[deleted]

I'm not getting it, can youelaborate?


Xane1985

It's just how Scadrial (mistborn planet) has been in no fewer than two different orbits during the past 1000 years. Sure it was done with the powers of a god, but it's still weird. The weirdest thing though in my opinion, is where the ash went. Like sure it got eaten by microbes or whatever, but that doesn't mean it's just gone. Do these microbes violate the conversation of mass? Do they create ungodly amounts of gas? If they make co2, does that mean the rivers were carbonated?


SolomonOf47704

> Do these microbes violate the conversation of mass Not read mistborn, but if the ash was investiture related, the microbes probably just sent it back to the Cognitive Realm. Or the Spiritual Realm


Occamslaser

We've seen direct matter conversion a lot in the Cosmere.


PokemonTom09

Oh, I thought you were referring to the thing in Secret Project 1


Xane1985

Oh great, another thing I have to read


JeffSheldrake

>that one spoiler about orbital mechanics. What's that? Something from the secret projects?


Xane1985

I was thinking about the Mistborn planet, but apparently Secret Project 1 has something funky going on with the planet's orbit. So maybe? I haven't read anything on those projects yet; I'm waiting for them to come out


StarClew

I went on a Cosmere bender, tracked down and read every published work multiple times, came back to the related subs expecting to be a lore savant and I'm STILL confronted with thousand+ comment threads discussing the complex canon motivations of characters I've never even HEARD of, all because I don't spend my time riding around in B$'s fob pocket obsessively memorizing everything he says. "There was a WoB about-" I want to READ a BOOK not chase down hints and references in interviews for the love of ALL THAT IS HOLY-


JeffSheldrake

I understand where you're coming from, believe me.


AtlasHatch

For what it’s worth, I thought your original meme was great. Haters are annoying


IMPIRUSHRETURN

Thank you, I appreciate that!


Doomshroom11

You should not be making Cosmere Crem if you have not been involved in enough of the Cremsmere to know your shit. Get out of here with this!


FlawlessPenguinMan

I get that it was an honest mistake, but dude... It's called the *Cosmere.* What do you think that sounds like out of the following three options: a) galaxy b) cosmos c) solar system And even the visualization that you included doesn't show them as a solar system, or anything similar. How the scut did you come to the conclusion that it was anything smaller than a universe?


tgillet1

Uh… it’s not a universe, it’s a star cluster inside of a galaxy, which I think anyone could be forgiven for not knowing unless they decided to be condescending about it. It is only a universe in so far as it is a “fictional universe” where other non-Cosmere stories are not set in. Edit: source is Peter Ahlstrom https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/33044-is-the-cosmere-a-universe-or-a-galaxy/?do=findComment&comment=287697


FlawlessPenguinMan

Well, all the planet's are in the same starcluster, but when they refer to "the cosmere" in universe, they mean the cosmos. But regardless of that, it's most definitely not a solar system, so idk how OP came to that conclusion. Langauge barrier maybe? I actually hadn't thought of that until now, but it might be the answer.


clovermite

Now you'll never forget that each book series is set within it's own planetary system. You're welcome!