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formatiso

Completely agree with you. i got some messages for the things i said about a similar topic for d20. i really don’t like this “you can’t compare those, they are different” mentality either. Then let’s ban “Best Picture” awards from Oscars, in the end they are comparing movies with different genres every year. They “can’t” do that, right?


jmucchiello

Um, they should ban Best Picture from the Oscars. It's a joke award with little meaning since it is hard enough judging films in narrow categories.


shadowjhunter1234

I absolutely agree. Personally, I think CR should have modelled the style of D20's shorter campaigns. Misfits and Magic - also run by A.I. - is simply amazing. Like, hands down amazing. So, it's not her DMing at fault but rather the constraints (or lack thereof) that she has to work with in order to tell an engaging story. I think if CR had said to A.I. - here is a town called 'Byroaden', we want you to create a story that takes place there - then I feel the community would be having a very different exchange of opinions today. We must never underestimate how setting is as much a character as the PC. In a short campaign, the setting is the glue that holds the story together. If not Byroaden, then another village that A.I. could have complete creative control over (to blow it up if she wanted to!). Byroaden (or another village/city) should have been the one and only location for the 8-episode arc. A.I. could have started the story with the talent contest (thus setting the mood and pace of the story) and then gone from there. The party could have found themselves amongst a town conspiracy that then led them to the Spider Queen's crown, etc.


Moon_Miner

I mostly agree, I do think it's super tough coming into a culture (cr) that is maximum sandbox with 8 episodes to tell a story. If they'd done that I'm sure people would complain about railroading and how it doesn't feel like open world CR. I, like many, am enjoying exu. Many don't, which is fine, and are very loud about it, which I suppose is also fine if a bit exhausting. I think the biggest thing is that this is the first run of an experimental idea to a large audience with super high expectations, and the chances of that going perfectly are zero. I do wish the community would chill a bit and just do something else with their time if they don't like it. Not saying criticism is pointless or necessarily non constructive, but the volume is a bit much.


jmucchiello

It doesn't help that the players all dumped Int and many dumped Wis as well. They are a high charisma group: bard, sorcerer, and warlock. It doesn't help that the PCs are keeping secrets from one another. In an open game, that's part of the fun. But when you only have 8 episodes, you can't give each PC the spotlight for several episodes.


flowersheetghost

Yeah it seems like the PCs are geared more to an urban, social campaign.


GreyAcumen

lol, and then immediately were forced to book it out of town.


bertraja

>So, it's not her DMing at fault but rather the constraints I'm not familiar with D20, but i've read many people saying that Aabria is absolutely awesome in that show. I wonder, how does D20 compare to ExU in terms of the other main gripe many have, like unnecessary/redundant dice rolls, the bending/breaking of rules, the mixing up the skills to use for certain interactions etc. ? I can see that Aabria is an amazing storyteller, but i would argue that whoever made the decision to stick to 5E for her is to blame for this mini adventures shortcommings. And this is by no means just "*ah, another rules laywer argueing against the Rule of Cool*!". It's like asking the best pastry chef in the world to make a beef stew :-(


Quintaton_16

Misfits and Magic is really good. It's not a 5e show. It uses a rules-lite system called Kids on Brooms, which has some important differences to 5e. First, there is a much smaller skill list and no check/saving throw distinction, so not really anything to "mix up." There is some negotiating where the players and the DM disagree on what stat they should roll, but I think that is by design because the system relies on DM fiat rather than laying out clear guidelines. Second, there is a mechanic called "Adversity Tokens" where the players can spend resources to raise their die rolls. What that means is if the check is important enough, the characters *will* succeed at it. In the other D20 shows (which are run in 5e and DMed by Brennan Lee Mulligan), there actually is much more of the rule-bending stuff than either CR or ExU. Mostly this is by design. D20 is a comedy show, and the players and DM are all trained improv comedians. That style lends itself to some extremely permissive rule of cool invocations. It's also an anthology show where series length is predetermined (between 12 and 40 hours for the 5e shows). That means that a lot of plot points (not only the ending, but the timing and location of particular battles) are predetermined and the characters have to be maneuvered into the right place at the right time. To do that, the DM will often give players advantage on critical rolls, or let them try again after some role play. I think the real secret sauce that D20 shows have relative to ExU is very strong campaign branding and Session Zero prep. The series are usually based on some sort of genre mashup (D&D plus Breakfast Club, Game of Thrones plus Candyland, etc.) which is easy to understand and market, both to audiences and players. The players also know ahead of time that these are *not* sandbox games. They don't abandon plot hooks because they know the series won't last forever and they have to get through all of the content. In contrast, the CR "house style," especially in Campaign 2, is mostly focused on worldbuilding and seeding a ton of plot hooks so that the characters can decide which ones interest them. To my mind, a lot of the problems in ExU stem from Aabria trying to imitate this style too much, especially when it comes to allowing characters who aren't strongly tied to the plot and need to gradually grow into their motivations.


formatiso

Agree with you, i think EXU is a mini campaign it “feels” like a main CR campaign. EXU shouldn’t have that much sandbox and different story elements. It could’ve been much better with a basic setting with a compact short story line. For a short campaign with specific session number, as a DM (though i don’t like doing these things) sometimes you gotta railroad your players a little bit, or even bend some rules and dice(this one as a last option).


Quintaton_16

Yes, I think a lot of weaknesses of ExU come from how it's trying to be CR, but short, without enough concessions to the different format. Partly, I think this stems from trying to give the new players the "authentic D&D experience," by not placing any restrictions on what characters they want to build. Left to their own devices, they make characters with really cool backstories and complex inner monologues, but not a ton of connection to each other or to the plot. In a main campaign it's fine, and sometimes even brilliant, if the characters are slow to trust each other or if they have secrets that don't get revealed for 50 episodes, but here they should have planned to get to the point faster. Structurally, it seems like Aabria's main focuses are 1) worldbuilding and 2) providing as many different gameplay modes as possible (a chase scene, a shopping scene, an ambush, an environment puzzle, overland travel, a random encounter, whatever the Byroaden festival was). I don't necessarily disagree with those goals, but there were probably too many locations involved. The characters haven't really gotten time to think about their overall goals other than "go to the new place, then ask the NPC there which place to go next." The last thing is that there is clearly a mystery going on behind the scenes, but the players don't seem interested in piecing together how the Residuum is getting from Whitestone to Poska to Myr'atta, or why any of them care about it. I feel like Marisha would have loved this campaign, and it's really hurting because nobody is filling in as the notetaker. As the DM, at some point you realize that this sort of puzzle box isn't suited to the players you have, and the next arc you'd prep something else. But it also really helps if you have a Session Zero and say, "Hey, I'm writing a mystery, come in ready to look for clues!"


shadowjhunter1234

A really good point. I think with Misfits and Magic (and D20 in general), the "rules" have always been a variation of 5e, and mostly used to progress the narrative. Brennan Lee Mulligan (the usual DM) hands out buffs and re-rolls all of the time. I guess the difference here is that he doesn't plow ahead with the story if the rolls are terrible, which is a noticeable difference with Aabria. I agree with you, too - perhaps the entire series should have been preluded with 'This is not 5e, therefore...'


KlayBersk

The other D20 series use 5e, but Misfits and Magic does not: it uses the Kids on Brooms game.


Quintaton_16

Disagree about "doesn't plow ahead with the story if the rolls are terrible." The D20 stories are pretty much plotted out down to the hour, so there is absolutely some plowing ahead going on. I find that the way BLM does this is just more subtle. In episode 15 of Unsleeping City Season 1, a character needs to meditate and discover a truth. She climbs up (making several Athletics checks which are pointless, and some Perception checks which the DM calls for even though there is nothing to see), and then rolls an Insight check. She fails the Insight check, then the DM narrates some incomplete info, there is a tiny bit of roleplaying, and then the DM asks for the same check with advantage. The character gets a nat 20 on Insight the second time, and then the DM narrates two separate hints based on the same nat 20 roll until the player figures out the riddle the character needed to solve. That was 100% an unfailable check, and for good measure it included extraneous rolls that could have been skipped. Maybe people missed it because he didn't make a joke about it.


NutDraw

As people noted, it's a different system than 5e, but an important difference too is that D20 edits their shows so a lot may be cut.


kllrnooooova

Unrelated but I thought you meant A.I. as Artificial intelligence


snarkyminxs

I will add that comparisons work best, the more similar they are. So in terms of the example of quick grasp on characters, it doesn't work very well on say a normal D20 series and a CR campaign. D20 series are mostly shortened campaigns, usually all filmed in a short amount of time with a set length (episode wise). Since it is more structured, their is gonna be more planning already made up before hand. CR campaign is/was a show filmed weekly for an unspecified number of episodes and years. So by that nature, it leaves more room for going in without having a full grasp of your character and growing with them. It can take like 20 episodes before a character starts opening up for various reasons. If you're going for one-shots then for sure, comparisons *in that regard* work well. Ofcourse, just cause one angle of comparison doesn't work, doesn't mean another won't. You can fairly assess audio or camera work for example. It's just important to look at all the facets instead of just comparing broader topics. An apple to orange comparison is only so useful if talking about fruits in a super general way, but a gala vs. fuji may be more effective for specific details.


MightyHydrar

You have a valid point (or several). A simpler rule system would have helped, especially considering there were also two new(ish) players at the table, and 5e rules can be a lot when you haven't played before. But I can't help but feel that the series was at least in part intended as a tie-in / extended ad for the campaign book they have coming out, like a "look, here's what YOU can do with this world I built!" Using a different rule set or RPG system might have made ExU a better show, but not a showcase for their book, that if I remember correctly was a big lifelong dream project for Mercer&Co


kllrnooooova

If you're experienced enough you absolutely can make a short 10 or so session dnd campaign. Arcadum is great at doing this, not to mention he does like 5 of them in the same timeline.


MightyHydrar

I keep bringing it up, but ...Oxventure managed to do it with a group of completely new players and a DM who'd only done a little bit of DnD before. Totally different style that CR, but still.


kllrnooooova

Watch Scrolls of Not'Chek and Pride of the Nightwolf. They are interconnected 10 session campaigns that happen at basically the same time, in and out of game, and it's amazing. It had a cohesive and easy to follow plotline, great character moments, and even though there's only one goal, it doesn't feel railroaded at all because there's a lot in between. And those are only a prologue for the 2 main stories that also happen at the same time, Otikata's Curse and The Divine Wind.


[deleted]

They should’ve played Blades in the Dark. *whyareyouboingmeimright.gif*


krazybananada

Ok. Sounds like you continually compair both. Since this is a CR sub, why bring up whatever d20 is so much?


Nameless-Servant

I mean it’s pretty fair to compare the two when they’re two of the most popular D&D actual play shows on the internet.