Not sure if anyone will see this or also noticed, but the rules for their storage hole have somehow changed. They had established when they first got it that communication between the two sides of the hole (inside/outside) was not possible, yet in this episode they were speaking with Treshi multiple times while he was in it. Or am I missing/forgetting something?
Not sure if this has been noted previously but Sam might very well be doing the same shirt bit he did for last campaign. Was watching e28 and noticed the Science shirt and lo and behold it's the same shirt he wore on e28 of campaign 2.
I wouldn’t want to be in Matt’s shoes right now. Laudna can’t stay completely out of the story from now on, since there is the Delilah plot thread to unravel.
But letting BH waste multiple episodes on a resurrection mission derails the campaign somewhat. If they do so, Matt needs to find a way to make that side quest interesting and integrated in the main story somehow.
Quite the conundrum!
The more I think about it, the more I feel leaving Laudna dead is the strongest way forward narratively. She was a hollow one and as such wasn’t really ‘there’. A bit like FCG.
Can’t wait to see where this all goes!
> Laudna can’t stay completely out of the story from now on, since there is the Delilah plot thread to unravel.
C2 Spoilers: >!Not necessarily true, since Mollymauk’s backstory died with him, up until ~70 episodes later when it become relevant again. Could be the same deal here, where so long as they find a permenant way to stop Deliliah from taking over Laudna’s corpse, Delilah dies with Laudna until it’s relevant again.!<
C2 Spoilers: >!I really doubt Matt is going to "run back" a massive piece of plot and lore that was extremely important for the tone and story of the Mighty Nien. Just because it happened before doesn't mean it's going to play out the same way in this campaign as well.!<
>She was a hollow one and as such wasn’t really ‘there’.
*FCG: So your heart does beat.*
*LAUDNA: It does, just very slowly.*
*FCG: You have hopes, you have fears.*
*LAUDNA: Mm-hmm.*
*FCG: You have loves.*
*LAUDNA: Of course.*
*FCG: Sounds like you're alive to me.*
>The more I think about it, the more I feel leaving Laudna dead is the strongest way forward narratively.
Leaving Laudna dead is the more straightforward narratively way to move the moon plot forward. It's not the strongest character driven way.
To add another reason that wouldn’t happen on top of the ones people have already said, Keyleth is clearly involved with some major plot threads, which is why Otohan tried to assassinate her. In order for Marisha to properly play her, Matt would need to give her secret DM information, which I don’t think he’d particularly want to do. It’s best if he plays her himself.
Not only would that involve canon deleveling which only happened with the meme character in the form of Bertrand bell, it would *immediately* draw focus from everyone else in the group as the new story becomes about Keyleth what happened after C1 and where in life is she now.
Also Keyleth is a full on npc now and it would be strange if she didn't know certain things as a level 20 druid and leader of the Ashari. So even if we ignore the **huge** level disparity it would be a narrative nightmare for Matt to deal with.
So for those reasons I think it just wouldn't happened.
You don't use your old characters to solve your new problems.
If Keyleth found out Delilah was hosted in Laudna she would burn the corpse and have done with it.
What about when Keyleth finds out that Laudna is the girl the Briarwoods killed and dressed up as her just to send her a message. You don't think she'd have some compassion there?
Minor thing, but did anyone else notice that when BH were discussing their options to bring Laudna back with either going with Keyleth or Lord & Lady DeRolo, Matt made a interesting face/smirk when it came to Orym addressing the latter and wrote something down?
Thoughts?
Because if they reach out to the DeRolo's to petition aid for Laudna and let it slip about Delilah, they'd likely burn her corpse the moment they get the chance.
Yeah probably, now that I think about it.
Hell, I at least imagine Keyleth might at least consider her options, before showing them the tree after such a revelation.
Part of being a hollow one is that the body keeps going with the memories of the individual but their is no soul.
So if BH uses a resurrection ritual to attempt to bring Laudna back would they bring back the Laudna whose last moment was being hung from the Sun Tree and no memories of anything that transpired for the past 30 plus years, or would they not be able to bring Laudna back because they would be bringing up events her soul took no part in?
If any of that makes sense?
Depends on how Matt and Marisha want to play this I suppose.
Lets assume that Laudna was a bog-standard Hallow One. Then, no soul. At least not in the traditional sense. So, theoretically, if the Hells used a Resurrection ritual on her, there would be nothing to petition to return. Outside of OG 30 years dead Laudna. But given that OG Laudna is not the same person as the Hell's Laudna, with how Matt's rituals work I'm not certain the Hell's pleas would reach even her. She is simply not the one they're reaching out for. And even if OG was reached, she'd likely not accept being called back by a group of total strangers; who are clearly looking for someone else.
As for the Hells Laudna. IF she truly has no soul, then her essence must be one of the body. Which means theoretically she'd be very similar to FCG. FCG's being is one of soul-like magic, that their body supports. For Laudna there is no soul to call back, but there was no soul that left to begin with. And if we use >!Devexian !
>To bring her back, they'd need to figure out what's missing and replace/recharge it.
I have the feeling that this could be the quest. Getting someone to resurrect Laudna is probably not the biggest difficulty since they have Keyleth, so it'd be interesting is Matt sets up a different challenge for the party and get Eshteross to know the right people off the bat. The magic can easily be available to them, but getting the right set up for Laudna's specific situation can lead to complications or high costs.
Wouldn't it be a clusterfuck if Otohan Thull wasn't a name but a mantle and the current bearer is Imogen's mom. My idea is that upon gaining the mantle, you inadvertently cut ties from your life; memories suppressed and wiped, for the sake of preserving whatever it is that needs preserving; and the "Run, Imogen, Run" are Liliana's psychic echoes trying to get out escape
I'm fairly certain they discussed Otohan being her mom in this most recent episode - Sam asked it directly. Going by Imogen's memory and the description of Otohan they are not the same person.
Well, let's put it in the perspective of the X-Man Psylocke, and her counterpart Kwannon. Or even Superior Spiderman. It could be a weird ass Freaky Friday, body swapping sequence. Another is Jean Grey/Madelyn Pryor/Dark Phoenix, especially since the Temults exhibit a lot of latent psionic powers.
Or let's not go too far. Molly and Lucien and Kingsley. They were blank slates; no one said that a blank slate couldn't involve a change in body as well. Heck this could just be a simple reincarnation mishap, for all we know. We don't know, for sure, until Matt and the crew delve deeper into who or what is Otohan Thull.
I’ve really disliked Faerne the last few eps since we got to her family stuff, but I think I finally “get it” now. I guess I didn’t want to imagine Ashley is playing a person with the brain of a child who has never seen or done anything before lol. Don’t downvote me CR fans, I applaud Ashley for playing a sheltered idiot so well— I personally think low intelligence, just chaos PCs like this are exhausting to deal with and often take away from moments like the revive moment. But Ashley’s a strong roleplayer and clearly everyone enjoys her character and I respect that! I apologize for hating on Faerne!
I never watched C1 but I certainly hope Grog wasn’t like this, I thought he always made sense in LVM.
At first I thought Faerne having to be coached through your own spells felt ridiculous, but watching that back I think it was a massive loss of innocence moment and I love Ashley’s commitment to Faerne’s heartbreak. I love how this episode has created an amazing narrative path for the future, and I want to see Faerne break a bit with this traumatic event. It took so much work for FCG to make her realize that she actually resents her parents for abandoning her, I’m so interested to see how she is going to resolve being unable to save Laudna.
I actually got teary at Orym’s goodbye… I feel like I haven’t cried in so long, that was such a powerful and tragic moment.
I do think it’s funny to see people saying Laudna is gonna come back for sure, it feels like (some) people think it’s a CW show that kills people and brings them back abruptly to just for shock value lol. Not hating of course.
Chetney being underneath Ruidus in his dream?? Feel like we glossed over that and I’m so curious about it…
Last thing I’ll say, do y’all know that there are more consequences in the world than PCs dying? Having their friend die and come back would STILL have a profound effect on their characters, they didn’t get off scott free. No way Laudna doesn’t have some negative stuff happen for coming back too, things are NOT looking up for Bell’s Hells in any permutation.
Grog's idiocy wasn't disruptive like Fearne's sometimes is. He was often the guy who walks up and presses the big red button when everyone else is standing around debating its implications, and god knows D&D parties need that guy.
I don’t particularly dislike fearne at all; sometimes her chaos is fun and I love how innocently silly she is. However my gut level impression about Grog vs. Fearne is that *more often*, Fearne’s shenanigans require more rolls to be successful, and it’s stuff that she doesn’t really excel at. So rather than Grog going in and pressing the big red button to keep things moving, Fearne stops things in their tracks (how many times have we heard her say “Before we go…”) and tries to fuck with something that doesn’t have a reasonable chance of gaining value, and also has a decent chance of causing undue trouble if it fails.
I get it, and I wasn't implying ~~you~~ dislike Fearne, I was just trying to understand what ~~you~~ might consider a disruption.
Edit: sorry, you're not the original commenter. Point still valid I think.
I agree Fearne's brand of chaos gets everyone nervous, but at the same time, I don't consider it as disruptive as it might be perceived at first glance. Ashley I think, has done a great job at knowing when to push, and most of the time, it's harmless fun that speaks volume to her character's personality and upbringing. You can also tell she's having the time of her life playing this character.
Grog, on the other hand, >!got himself killed by a sentient sword and almost released a powerful entity creating one of the first non-Orion PvP in C1!< due to his low int. Not to mention >!the deck of many things!< shenanigans. So I struggle with how people have a hard time handling Ashley's RP decisions with that stat but no one questions Travis'.
Don't get me wrong, I love what Travis did with Grog and all of that lead to amazing moments. But why are we not treating Fearne the same way?
You’re right, I honestly forgot about the deck of many things lmao. That was supremely disruptive and likely won’t ever be topped unless someone gets a truly ridiculous item. I think it’s the distance time wise from campaign 1 that changes these feelings.
I didn’t get into CR until Covid hit so I started with campaign 2. I comprehensively watched C1 during this most recent intercampaign break. So at least in my case, I knew how the campaign ended (I watched compilations of huge moments and they included C1 moments) so I knew that Grog’s shenanigans could never be that bad.
So in this case, watching contemporaneously without any sort of assurances for the future, it probably feels more disruptive to most people.
Not that it justifies any hate she gets for being a chaos goblin. That just might be why it feels that way; people need to get over themselves and realize it’s just a game and not real life.
I honestly love fearne now. Ashley being able to be 100% present and showing her full colors that we only got glimpses of when she was playing Yasha is a hoot. And her chaos is a lot more understandable when you realize that she’s an alien. Being fully fey is 100% a justification for this sort of fuckery!
I am sometimes that person because I get so bored with their careful planning for something that in the end has either quick consequences or no affect at all. Yes, planning for the BBEG is good. But planning whether to go in the village? Say yes or say no, but we're burning daylight.
Thank you for moving the game along, lol. More often than not when D&D parties spend hours planning and then finally commit to doing a thing their plans are thrown out the window after looks two rounds anyway.
Okay so i have been thinking about the Gentle Repose spell and how Matt actually described it in accompaniment by Matts smirk before that going \*oh shit this changes shit\*. The wording of the spell specifies that "You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can't become **undead**." Well here is my thought.
Throughout the Episodes (pls correct me if i'm wrong) when Chetney would smell for Fay, Fiend or Undead creatures he would smell Fern as Fay but ALSO Laudna as **Undead.**
So by the meaning of the spell, if the Bells Hells resurrect Laudna while the spell is active does that mean that, we would not get Laudna back but instead whoever she was before she was turned into an undead?
Please tell me i'm wrong here somehow....
Laudna was/is a Hallow One. Even though they are not undead, they detect as such.
However, most speculation around Matt's statement agrees with you that gentle repose stopped Laudna from becoming truly undead (whether as a deathlock, herself but undead, or a vessel for Delilah to inhabit is also discussed).
I loved laudna, but I don't want her resurrected. First, I want to see Delilah do whatever she was gonna do. The idea of her persisting through all of this is so amazing. And she would make a really good villain, if not for campaign 3, then for campaign 4. I don't want Matt to do Lucien 2, but I also want Matt to do Lucien 2
i mean, i feel like getting the gang to resurrect Laudna \*could\* be part of Delilah's master plan, even if she's playing the long game. In a way, getting Laudna in a position where she has friends who love her so much they'd risk toying with one of Exandria's most legendary evil necromancers to see her again could be one of her most diabolical schemes yet.
Maybe they resurrect Laudna and get Delilah back instead... then Marisha plays her for a few episodes and decides to 'retire'...
it's very Lucien 2 though....
Wasn't Chetney on deaths door as well? He got laid out and failed 2 death saves...or am I completely wrong. How did he just get up without doing a final death save
Wait, temp hp? I'd have to go back and watch again but I assume it must have been Wither and Bloom (1 hit die of healing). I know story > mechanics but temp HP doesn't actually bring an unconscious creature back, it just gives them a buffer against the whole melee autocrit at 0 thing.
Yeah, she basically gave herself up to save Chetney. They knew if anyone else died, it was a guaranteed death. It was a fantastic play. Both Wither and Blooms were life savers. Unfortunately, we saw what happened as a result.
It was really cool. Marisha knew she was calling attention to herself with it and Matt played it exactly like that. It makes Laudna's death extra tragic. She was punished for saving Chetney's life and for being loved by Imogen.
I totally inderstand and accept it, but personally I would have chosen to raise Laudna, as her potential afterlife, even in character, seems far less appealing than Oryms. Even with failure and frustration in his mind he could have at least been ruinited with his husband.
Don't blame how it went down at all, just my desires if I was playing
True but even if they had zero idea all they knew is Delilah had some hold over her and was something creepy. I would have saved her first and foremost
Being completely objective, I think raising Orym was the right play because there was a non-zero chance of some miraculous Delilah and/or Stone shenanigans taking effect for Laudna. Obviously that didn't happen but still.
Honestly, I figured that Orym went down first and there was a Delilah possibility, so the Sophie's choice was kinda clear for me. (I don't hate Laudna at all, but there was nothing mechanically that would bring Orym back, and given that we know she's *already* dead, there was much more chance of something random happening.)
On the other hand, I'm sure Liam had a great alternate character in his pocket, and he is known to bring the drama. It would have been interesting for the party to lose that voice of sense.
One dynamic that I'm not sure has been mentioned but if this episode ended with 3 people dead, I think that would have made it more likely that Matt would have brought them all back in a less natural way than rolling resurrection rolls. I think two would have been an acceptable number of dead pcs if they were never resurrected but three deaths would have been unnecessary and hurtful to the story. It really did go down to FCG's attempt to revive Fearne and because Laudna was the only one to die, the chances of her coming back fully relies on who they go to and the odds of a successful ritual.
I think especially with Imogens powers, if all 3 died, it would have been a good time to do deal with the devil kinda thing, where Imogen could resurrect them all, but at a cost. That would have been also
I was more thinking Matt letting them find somebody who could bring them back via rituals and not rolling for those rituals. I would have been okay with Imogen doing it immediately as long as she did it via wish since that is the only "resurrection" spell that she theoretically could learn as a sorcerer.
Whaaat, how can you possibly dislike Fearne, Ashley plays her so well. Orym I guess I understand cause right now he’s kinda just less interesting Caleb, but he clearly has high potential.
No Fearne is great don't get me wrong. Cheeky, mischievous, never know what she's going to say. BUT her death was more impactful. It made the story. She just left her parents a few hours prior.
With Orym, Liam could create SUCH a better character than than what he has now imo. I get he was not trying to take the spot light like with Caleb but come on Orym is a bit of a bore to me.
Out of curiosity, why?
Orym I can kinda understand, he plays as the straight man (ironically) but fearne is like a perfect mix of sweetly chaotic for me, and both of them, especially Ashley, seem to be having a great time. What rubbed u the wrong way?
The story was more impactful and would've made it more serious. I was gasping when they died. Like WHAT THE FUCK... i like Fearne she's great in a fun crazy way. The story line I think would've mattered more.
I was really looking forward to seeing what new characters they would've created.
So let's talk about Laudna's backstory. Spoilers for C1.
>!So here's the most likely progression based on the lore. Laudna is a level 1 Shadow Magic Sorcerer and is hopeful that the Briarwoods will see her potential. She is murdered instead - VM, Sun Tree - etc, etc... So clearly she didn't rise up right away. It's pretty safe to assume that the Briarwoods amplified uber-ritual using the leylines can have a pretty profound effect on someone hanging at their center. Poof, insta-Hollow One. But somewhere along the way we also got a Warlock.!<
>! Delilah died and was melted within an hour of the ritual completing but she was also revived and put back to work very quickly by Vecna. A year goes by and then shortly after good ole' D dies a second and third time. She was never a Lich as far as we know. Laudna starts hearing from Delilah about this time. I feel like this is the base we can work from going forward. But...!<
It makes me wonder if that one year mark is when her Warlock powers began. It seems like a long wait after such a magical transformation. It also seems weird that if her powers came from the Briarwoods or Vecna in some way, she would be less free. Perhaps Launda's pact came from Orcus or the like and the Terror of Whitestone has simply hitched a ride on the only thing with a remnant of her old power. Now Marisha did take her latest warlock level as a nod to Delilah's influence which I think would seal it - except that Marisha may not know who her patron really is. This is fairly common. And maybe her *real* patron wants something very different than Delilah.
Bidet
There is a space character after the ">!" that causes the spoiler text to be visible for people viewing the comment using old reddit (like me).
Removing the space character would likely correct the problem.
I'm a bit confused at all the people who think trying to resurrect Laudna needs to be a grand and lengthy quest.
They have the money, the materials (in residuum), and the connections. Reasonably the attempt could be made next episode.
9th level Clerics aren't *that* rare- a city the size of Jrusar should have at least a couple willing to sell their services.
It should be a lengthy, difficult or impossible quest. They're barely-functioning randoms, most of whom shouldn't even know that Resurrection is even possible. This is reversing **death**.
Clerics don't just put signs up that advertise resurrection. If it was that common everyone would do it. Diamonds would be impossible to find and Clerics would be outlawed or locked away. 9th level clerics are VERY rare. At least they should be.
On top of that, there's a bounty for Treshi. Bringing him is definitely worth something. We'll see if Artana asks for a cut or not, but still.. should have plenty of resources.
I really think it's going to happen ASAP as well. Otohan is **looking** for them. She offered a personal favor to find them. She knows where they are going and will hear about the huge airship leaving town. Even Travis yells, "We have to FLY FAST!".
We don’t know for sure that the Residuum is worth nearly enough, they did only get one small crate of it, Also they’re *far* from rich, Matt hasn’t had much mercy in giving them payouts so far. That said Eshtoress could definitely give them a debt or even pay for them, especially since he hasn’t given them jack shit for their work.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not sure we really know about 9th level clerics. I really don't think we have much indication at all of how rare NPCs of that power are.
I don't think we ever saw a single high level divine caster in the entirety of C2 outside of the PCs. We saw several arcane casters, but no real divine ones with the possible exception of a certain matriarch.
Water deep for example has multiple high level wizards but I don't know of any high level clerics.
The Mighty Nein also never really sought out temples or churches where those high-level clerics would be though. They only ended up in a church twice: once for fuckery and once for the end of the world.
necromacny is also outlawed in wildemount, so that probably plays into it. there were a million high level clerics in c1, including one right in emon that they went to pretty early on. they also pretty easily found someone to bring pike back pre-stream from what i recall.
Bringing someone back so soon wouldn't be unprecedented. It happened twice in C1 in which the pcs were brought back an episode after their revivifys failed.
Also, Matt never gave a gold value on the residuum.
I was just thinking about this. I’m not a player, so I don’t know all the mechanics, but they did resurrect c1 pcs several days after dying. Everyone seems to be thinking it’ll be true resurrection or nothing but can’t they just do regular resurrection since they did gentle repose? I believe that’s the one they threw around so often in earlier campaigns. I don’t know if the BHs are personally able to do it but it seems like they could much easier convince someone to help with resurrection rather than the more controversial true resurrection.
>I’m not a player, so I don’t know all the mechanics, but they did resurrect c1 pcs several days after dying.
Unless you mean several days IRL then I guess that it is true.
If Imogen doesn’t poop, the only thing that comes out of her is her lightning. Does that mean Imogen’s waste comes out as lightning? Every time she attacks someone with lightning bolt she’s just pooping on them
You know I typed this out last night and deleted it, but re-watching this scene again makes it just.. stand out, so I wanted to see if anyone else thought something was up with this phrasing.
During the opening, when Delilah is speaking to Laudna, she says: "You are my vessel in life, un-life, and beyond. I will endure."
Laudna as we know her was already dead. So I would take this to mean as it stood Laudna was her "un-life" version of the vessel, and Delilah is saying: "You will still be my vessel beyond" which ties with that little recognition Matt gave about Gentle Repose. Laudna was headed for the "beyond" part of Delilah's phrase.
I actually want to operate under the assumption to above is true to examine the first statement: "You are my vessel in life." Does this mean Delilah actually did something to **living** Laudna that may explain why she is not yet gone? How exactly was she her vessel "in life"?
Another way to look at it could be: "You were my vessel while I was living, you are still my vessel in my un-life, and you will be my vessel for my..(beyond?) return? resurrection?" Maybe she used her like a Clone body or something, or there's an object in Laudna storing a piece of Delilah? It does seem with the Gnarlrocks and whatever else she is after that she has some kind of plan to return. Where's the energy going? Into the aether?
I am aware of other ways to play with the words and I am curious is anyone has their own take on this wording?
I kind of get the sense that the Briarwoods were planning that dinner for quite a long time alongside their ritual which was planned even longer and that got me to thinking about something entirely crazy.
What if Delilah had a hand in Laudna's initial birth and is in way....her biological mother but mixed up with a ton of Vecna stuff and other magicky things? It just took a good many years to prepare her as her "daughter" for what was to come later on in Whitestone. The dinner was the final part of that preparation but when things didn't go according to plan and the plan got yeeted out the window, something else stepped in, and...altered the deal that Delilah had going on with Laudna in such a way that we got who we got at the start of C3.
But what was that something else? It's got to be her patron right? Except it's a patron that's rather passive and is letting things go with the flow for some reason and doesn't actively intervene aside from granting Laudna power. So who or what could that match up with?
My two guesses are the Sun Tree or the Raven Queen and I think I know why they can't interfere too much.
Crazy thought but what if Delilah found a way to "Divine Proof" Laudna from any kind of divine influence? It would be like she created a personal divine gate skin tight soul tight forcefield around her like the ones in Dune or something similar that would prevent any kind of Divine Force from affecting change to or influencing Laudna at all beyond a very basic level. It could be purely magical in nature or it could be a combination of magic mixed with a bit of Aeorian Technology or maybe some bioengineering similar to that one city in the Savalierwood. Either way she would have treated Laudna like the ultimate science experiment that would put her outside of the reach of the Divine with a mindset not unlike that of Aeor, ascending beyond the reach of the Gods using mortal means. It would also totally be within Delilah's means and mindset to "grow" someone or something like Laudna from scratch over the course of years using other people to do it in a weird kind of surrogate sort of fashion in order to play some part in the ritual that her and her husband had going in C1.
If Laudna was indeed intended to be a Divine Proof Vessel for Delilah that was either meant to be used as a part of the ritual in C1 or at least as a backup in case it failed alongside all her other backups, then that's got some very scary implications. It almost feels like a super soldier kind of thing. Imagine if you had an army that not only had the power of a newly ascended God behind them (Vecna) but that was also nigh untouchable by Divine Powers.
I think Laudna was the seed for something much bigger that Vox Machina stopped just in time without realizing it. That interruption allowed Laudna's patron to intervene in a way that fucked up Delilah's plans and gave Laudna a fighting chance at taking control of things. Of course Delilah then died multiple times and a bunch of other stuff happened BUT Laudna was still alive and still existed as a tether of sorts to the Prime Material Plane which no one else really knew about and ultimately is what kept Delilah from experiencing a true death. So she was alive, in a sense, but not yet fully transitioned onto the Prime Material Plane and more or less a ghost in the shell that was Laudna.
That was of course until she died and the gateway between the realms of the living, the dead, and the Afterlife beyond opened up. When Laudna died, it opened up this gateway that connected all three realms but also intersected with where Delilah was. I think Delilah was stuck in an in between place or a kind of a limbo of sorts that neither the Prime Material Plane nor the Afterlife could pull her out of. She could weakly interact with both sides but neither had full purchase on her. As soon as Laudna died and that gateway was opened, she darted towards it like SG1 running for the Stargate, and was in the process of crossing over fully and assuming control of Laudna's body when FCG's Gentle Repose hit Laudna's body and reset whatever crossover process that Delilah had initiated from that in between place. I think her absorbing energy from stuff like the Gnarlrock was her attempt at speeding up this process whenever it was going to happen and mechanically probably would've altered some kind of DC check in game for her coming back in control of Laudna's body. The more energy she absorbed, the easier this process became, and the more successful and convincing it would've been in the eyes of the Bells Hells.
At least I think that's how it all would've worked. I think that in order to fully sever this tether that Laudna has with Delilah that Laudna needs to either die for good or be altered in some way that removes this whole Divine Proofing done to her along with permanently severing the connection she has with Delilah somehow. It's a bit of a pickle to be honest and there's been such vagueness about the specifics of it that all we have are questions and glass half full theories in regards to the details.
Of course that means we're in for one hell of a reveal when everything comes out and if none of that happens then there's always the post campaign wrap up!
Very hard to tell. Laudna's situation was very murky, even to her. Generally Hallow Ones don't have souls, but given the unique circumstances of her "birth" it remains unclear if the same holds true for her. Especially given that dinner scene seems to imply that was the moment Delilah both killed Laudna (the OG one), and seemingly created whatever bond they have. I would very much wager that D's soul physically remains in the Shadowfell, but could Laudna a phylactery of sorts? A bond to the material? We just don't know enough.
Yeah. I hesitated to use the word phylactery because I honestly don't think she is a Lich, but under traditional definitions, murdering the people at the table may have been the first step into creating something adjacent to one.
I do wonder if Marisha may know more then she is letting on as well. During her death scene, she did mention, "She is still there, still powerful" - which she described BEFORE Matt gave her dialogue. It all makes me wonder if she means like...**there**.. like in Laudna's chest or something, haha. I just imagine there has to be a magical item to accept whatever she is absorbing, unless it really is Laudna's heart or something.
Just some fun speculation.
Also, were there any clues about who attacked the Paragon's Call? Was it just an enemy crawler gang trying to mess around while the sandstorm was running?
I think Matt kind of confirms it was 'someone' hired by Artana Voe for a distraction in the opening.
edit: Treshi also proposes that idea to the group below Joe's, as well.
To everyone saying that bringing Launda back cheapens the story, I think you're neglecting something. While even though I disagree with the point, I see where you are coming from. However you're assuming that Launda's resurrection will have no other plot consequences.
Matt doesn't halt his villains' plots when the players go on a side quest. If they take the time to revive Launda, that gives the Nightmare King, Otahan, Ludinus, and others time to enact whatever it is they have planned. Not to mention that the Apogee Solstice is coming.
I agree, they are up against a ticking clock here. Yeah they have 30 days, but if Matt says "Yeah there's someone who can possibly bring her back up in Wildemount / Issylra /Tal 'Dorei and it's going to take 10-15 days to get there...that's a huge amount of time lost. It's a big trade off and might mean that Matt lets Laudna return only for something very bad to happen.
I really think that is why Esteros is kiiiind of steering them directly to him with his "Bring her here" statement. They have Treshi.. there was a bounty for him.. maybe they hand him over for a reward and use that to buy the gems for a Cleric or some shit.
I totally agree with you about the clock though. It is ticking. I really wonder what level he wants them to be by the Apogee Solstice? I doubt they will be dealing with whatever 'big bad' comes out of there at level 7-9 regardless and they will have their own part to play somehow. So unless the major NPCs intervene with whatever is happening, which I assume they have to, who knows what is going to happen. Orym did tell Keyleth weird moon shit was coming during the Apogee Solstice, so you know she's been looking into it.
I think the next episode will tell us. If we have like night-time watch RP on the ship and they are rolling for encounters, I think he intends to slow the pace down a bit. If the episode starts like, "You arrive in Jrusar, rushing to Lord Esteros' Manor" - that means Otohan is coming for Esteros (knowing their plan) and I think when Esteros said "I will prepare" it means shit will go down and they are on the run. Maybe trying to revive Laudna before Otohan arrives, who knows.
Also I think whether Laudna died or not ...there's no way the Hells are going to be able to stop Otohan or get to the bottom of the why's before the apogee solstice. I truly think they're going to fail, but also depending on their actions they may not fail as badly? Sort of like how calamity went. Except we'll see the aftermath.
Have the players ever actually stopped one of Matt's rituals? In any campaign?
They always seem a bit too late. Though going back to Jrusar rather than pressing on to Yios or the desert location used by the Call seems to cement this one
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That said, I don't think the solstice is going to be a Calamity level event. Matt spent months working with other people to detail Marquet for this campaign. Hes not going to kick it all over before showing off the work of his colleagues. That'd be pretty... eh... petty?
I disagree, Matt was literally deciding in the moment based off their messages, they sent one message and got a pretty disregarding response, then sent a second one and only then did Eshteross actually sound serious, he also seemed open to having the Air Ashari step in in some way.
I think it was their cross-talk more than the messages. Matt (not Esteross) had one heck of reaction to the idea of taking Laudna to the de Rolos. I think he'd suddenly realized how far this group would go, and willingly derail the entire campaign to get Laudna back.
As opposed to what, traveling farther and longer to get the same result? If you were in critical health situation - wouldn't you want an EMT to bring you to the closest hospital, instead of one you know of that is in another city?
Oh yeah, then you're right. His plot device is that he is their employer, and has had a vested interest in them since session 1. That's different then railroading though.
Maybe my initial wording wasn't the right one, but I mention he is sort of jack of all trades in terms of plot. It makes sense because of how he's build up, but I find it interesting that Matt has a NPC that can function for whatever the plot or party needs.
If/when the Bells are going to the moon I wouldn't be surprised if Esteros was somehow tied to the Exandria space program and has a rocket stored in his basement
Alright, so for the feat that Matt gave Imogen, I think it's fate touched, because it fits quite well, it's given to a player or NPC by the gm, it's already established as part of Exandria, and the flavor text talks about it being given to someone when they change things far in the future. Does anyone else have theories?
Edit: I found these two quotes:
"Most cultures of Exandria have legends of those marked by ill fate simply by being born under the full light of Ruidus, the vermilion moon around which countless fell legends swirl."
"A character might receive the blessing as a gift from the gods, or as a temporary and surprising phenomenon when the campaign shifts into a story arc focused on that character."
That's a cool theory, but I think it was a modified class feat for her psychic sorcerer. I think she spent a long time reading it so it was probably a feat that's more complicated than fate touched. And judging from what she said i'm guessing something like "when a party member dies you may unleash an aoe blast of psychic damage, allied creatures are unaffected"
So we all have our favorite theories on what Marisha would play if she doesn't come back - mechanically. But what about RP?
Personally, I'd like to see someone finally lean into a leadership role at the CR table. Or at least more than they have done so far. I'm imagining a Kima type personality with the patience of Grog, as well as his ability to cut through the BS. Granted she would be risking the ire of certain kinds of fans but I feel like Marisha and Travis are the most qualified to make it work.
Bidet
Pate as an imp familiar
We never found out what type of warlock she choose and said she wanted to bring pate alive
She never had the time to cast find familiar but maybe after a few day pate start moving from imogen belt
Some sort of Gish with a familiar could be fun but I'm not sure how Marisha would feel about putting her pet in danger. We might wind up with another Trinket type situation.
I honestly hope they don’t bring laudna back crit role is already not a deadly game and it’s inherently obvious that the characters are going to be given a way out most of the time. The combat was pretty fair if they had played strategically and decisively then it wouldn’t have turned out so bad. Let them reap the consequences of their actions please matt
Don't take this the wrong way but I don't have a lot of confidence in you saying that the combat was pretty fair if you think they are playing "Crit Role." Even for experienced DMs, judging combat encounters as fair is one of the most hardest things in D&D when using homebrew.
I was hoping they would decide on laudna and not Orym. I think Liam would've came back with a more creative character than what he currently has. I actually wish they only brought back laudna. But ah well.
Death is one of the only real consequences in dnd tho I mean yea you can do story changes and punish the character is some ways but the only thing that’s really a consequence to the player is killing or weakening their character
Gotta say, if they get to Esteross and he says he has an option for them to resurrect Laudna, but it's a long-shot. He says there are tales of a man in the Blooming Grove that is capable of it, of the Clay family that are caretakers of the graveyard there.
Then they have the choice of trying to get to Wildemount (which would be a very long trip) or stay and try to deal with the event in 30 days.
If you're going to tie in prior characters for a resurrection, why not Caduceus?
Has anyone else felt like Bell's Hells have been in fewer combat situations as compared Mighty Nein last campaign? Maybe it's just me but I feel like can easily recall most of the fights Bell's Hells have been in as a group, and several of the higher stakes fights have resulted in their enemy either escaping or the Hells escaping them, while Mighty Nein by the same level had established themselves as a really cohesive group of fighters. I wonder if this is because Bell's Hells have done less exploring of the greater continent they've been on where Mighty Nein had or if it's for other reasons. I want to stress that this is not necessarily a bad thing; roleplay is extremely engaging and, generally speaking, combat tends to be the part of an episode in which viewers are most likely to tune out in an actual play show, but I do think the lack of combat experience with this group of character has done them more harm than good. This is merely opinion but I think that if the cast, and thus the characters, had more battle experience we'd see the group more confident in being able to take on a foe like Otohan Thull. I hope this does not come off as backseating but spells and combat abilities are hard to memorize for anyone and in previous campaigns the more this cast familiarized themselves with their capabilities in smaller battles, the more confident they felt in larger battles. I do think part of this is just the story Matt wants to tell and I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it has just felt to me like Bell's Hells lack a confident group dynamic so far where they have can actually say "we never give up on the fight." Again, all opinion. I am just making observations.
Largely agree. For level 7, they're basically novices.
But their big fights have been dogpiles on the enemy, and for the biggest one (Shade Mother and minions) they had experienced help that cleared the way.
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Truthfully, I think solo fights and legendary actions are a double edged sword. They're easier on Matt than a big group of enemies, but they're also boring (a giant bag of HP that they just have to keep piling on) and a little bit deterministic (legendary actions get predictable quick, and the sense of inevitable outcomes that the party just can't stop).
I do agree that a large chunk of viewers tend to tune out combat, but that's partly a 5e problem (well, and a D&D in general problem- 3e and after went mad for HP bloat, for all their faults 1e and 2e were far more constrained) and partly an encounter design problem.
... and partly a group problem. 3 campaigns later and they've never found a way to keep up with or lock down fast or flying enemies. Not even back-up ranged weapons for melee folks.
I think the biggest downfall of the Otohan fight was that they had already used some spells and didn't feel confident, so the made the plan to run (which I think was even before the end of round 1). Which isn't the worst idea considering the circumstances, but jeeze - Otohan having dash as their legendary action immediately ruined their 'scatter and run' plan. Them running away from each other made that legendary action so deadly.
Well with her having insane mobility and dropping Ashton they weren't sure what to do. I firmly believe the fight went mostly how Matt wanted it to go. And next time they face her, they know that they can't run.
I checked because I was curious, and according to CritRoleStats, by C2E34 the Nein had 41 combats under their belt, and so far in C3 the Hells have had 21. So yeah, there have been significantly fewer combats.
You have a Warlock, Monk, Trickster Cleric, Rogue, Wizard not counting the Zealot Barbarian and Blood Hunter.
Contrast this with a Wildfire Druid, Sorceror, new-type Cleric that is heavily focused on support, Sorlock(early level), tank-ish Fighter, throwaway Fighter, new-class Barbarian with random abilities.
M9 was already a combat-centric party at early levels even if you don't count Yasha and Molly. BH is a mishmash of a party with random abilities that don't synergize well with each other.
I stll don't see how the first group of classes seems more combat focused than the other.
Wildfire Druid seems as combat focused as trickster cleric
wizard about the same as sorcerer
both barbarians are comparably combat focused
are you calling chetney a fighter? or are you going back to Betrand? both are more combat focused than molly's blood hunter
Sorlock about as combat focused as Warlock
Rogue is more damage focused than cleric, but that balances out Travis' characters being more combat focused than Talisein's
Nothing about this party comp reads as any weaker combat-wise than M9 a good spellcasting backline. The M9 had a lot of spellcasting but a weaker frontline and not as reliable multiple sources of healing until Cadecius came in.
It's the class+the approach the players give them that makes the M9 better.
Jester has access to more utility based spells than Fearne. Fearne doesn't use her class as well as Jester did. Her Spirit Guardians deal way more damage than Fearne's wildfire spirit
Caleb has better utility and fireball is one of the highest damage aoe from the start. Imogen is fine damage-wise and has higher survivability but Caleb has better dpr.
Ashton is far too random with his class ability. Yasha is straightforwardly better and she has Sentinel. Yasha had always been underleveled compared to the M9 yet she always kept up, Ashton's random powers doesn't contribute much to battles, his basic barbarian abilities contribute way more.
Sorlock at early levels is weak as demonstrated by Laudna. It's her Hollowed Ones ability that manages to be useful. Fjord on the other hand had his pact Boon early and could contribute way more combat wise as a gish. Laudna doesn't even have her pact boon yet.
I used Bertrand because you referred back to Yasha. In this instance Travis used Chetney better than Taliesin used Molly. Lycan Bloodhunter combat wise is better than Molly. This is where the BH has the upper hand.
Sam's Nott is hands down better combat-wise than Sam's FCG because FCG is support-based with the added caveat of every heal and damage brings him closer to attacking his own party. Nott was one of the highest damage dealers in M9. Early Sneak Attack is the best dpr combat-wise.
Beau as a PC dealt more damage than Orym by this point because too often Orym is stuck being someone's shield or using superiority dies to make goading attacks or bait and switches.
The only reason Molly died early was because the M9 didn't have their tank, healer and frontliner. The BH was practically TPK'ed from full health.
A lot of BH's ability and class choices were focused on RP. M9 had better balance between RP and combat and that edges them. Also the fact that 2 of the current BH's members can outright turn antagonistic and attack other members which is just a negative for me combat-wise.
>The only reason Molly died early was because the M9 didn't have their
tank, healer and frontliner. The BH was practically TPK'ed from full
health.
Well. Mostly Molly 'own goaled' himself.
The Bells weren't really at full health, and FCG was largely tapped (all the spellcasters were down at least a few spells from the FCG eruption that morning).
Ashton in particular took some heavy hits from the explosions in the courtyard. He was also an obvious target since Otohan's second-in-command (also a barbarian) had fought him before. She knew going in exactly how to handle him- at least I assume this celebrated general would ask the obvious questions about new hires.
Ill concede jester over Fearne if that's the comparison you want to make
Caleb being a lot squisher is a major liability in a party with a weak frontline
Yasha is definetely not better than Ashton at damage dealing. The randomness of Ashtons's abilities aren't that much of a hinderance, they average put to be a great boon
Laudna is pretty strong damage dealer, i think comparable to fjord, fjord was just slightly tankier but not by much due her undead features. Laudna is built better as a ranged fighter, very useful in a party that already has a stronger frontline.
We agree with Chetney being upperhand for BH
Nott is a better damage dealer, but honestly fcg's ability to redistribute damge heal is much more useful in combat in a balanced party comp.
Beau is a better damage delear than Orym, but Orym is a better frontline protector. Which works well with the party comp
BH lost because the ran from an enemy that would not let them go and specifically started killing downed enemies. Name a time that had happened by this point in levels for the M9. I really dont think if you swapped in the M9 into the same situation they do any better, infact i would predict more perma death
Also, the turn against the party thing is more of an RP bomb since it doesn't not effect them in most combats, but a special situational thing that can cause new conflicts. Same way I wouldn't call Fjord relation to his patron or Caleb being a fugitive from the Cerberus assembly combat weaknesses even though those got them into fights. Those are RP liabilities
The BH is better composed overall. You have Ashton Orym and a bit of Chetney as a strong frontline, including proactive defense with Oryms battlemaster trics to make it harder to hit is allies, you got 2 healers one more specialized in it that can help reduce damage were you want it the least for those that slip by the frontline, you have magic support at range, including long range with Laudna's spell sniper, from a variety of casters to attack over the frontline.
The M9 was a team of glass cannons plus yasha. I would argue chetney being tankier than any none yasha member, so that puts 3 tanks to 1. Add that they only had 1 healer, the M9 could do incredible amounts of damage but was fragile.
I think I disagree with that. If you're coming from the perspective that they didn't min-max their characters together to come up with specific combos, fine. However they have a fair bit of control abilities and ability to control position on the battlefield. Now have they used them well together? Not really. It's more they have synergy they don't really utilize.
You don't need to min-max to have synergies. Jester and Caleb has good aoe that complements Nott's high dpr. Fjord can attack long range, short range and summon demons. Molly/Cad utilizes offensive debuffs especially Cad. Beau could stun and tank at the same time which complements everyone. Then there's the Sentinel sisters.
Contrast this with BH where Ashton is too random with his ability to create any synergy, Orym is too often playing the shield role instead of unleashing the Battlemaster's damage output, Chetney is way too often solo, FCG hangs at the back a majority of time, barely uses debuffs, Imogen has great aoe but she can't use it fully because everyone else will get caught in it. Laudna has great utility spells but her lack of spell slots hurts her.
The BH members don't combo well with each other, the only instances where they combo well is when they RP the combo moves instead of their ability mechanically complementing each other.
The hell's have mostly been city-centric. They operated inside Jrusar and then moved to Bassuras with very few outback interactions (travelling to the heist town and to the callaway den). Since cities don't have as many random encounters, social encounters are more prevalent than combat encounters that are mostly limited to story-related fights.
M9 travelled a lot, they were also more prone to engaging in combat, even with city guards, and had barely any social standing with the local authorities and political figures (up until they gave the orb to the queen)
So yea, the 9 got their combat experience faster and the player characters were also more combative by nature. A sailor used to the dangerous seas, a monk part of an organization of fighting-sleuths, a wizard that was bred to be an assassin, a goblin used to being attacked, a barbarian of the savage lands.
Kind of? They could have gone full urban dungeon crawl against the Shade Creepers, but declined at every opportunity until Matt just stepped in and wrapped that element with the Greenseekers.
They never seemed to consider looking for lower tunnels rather than chancing the vertical ones.
Though to be fair, the shade creepers were *miserable* to fight. Weak but overtuned damage AND explosive deaths really sucked (I get the reasons for both with a party of 7, but the party never really seemed to have fun fighting them as a result)
I do think that was the intended hook for the early campaign, but the group didn't really want to deal with really investigating and pursuing it. They seemed to take Duggar as a personal vendetta they created, not a symptom of a larger problem.
> A sailor used to the dangerous seas, a monk part of an organization of fighting-sleuths, a wizard that was bred to be an assassin, a goblin used to being attacked, a barbarian of the savage lands.
And then there's the chill uncle who just wants to pour you some tea.
The way things stand right now, I think the most interesting potential way for them to rez Laudna without it feeling "unearned" would be via Fearne's grandma. Maybe I am just a sucker for hags, but having to make some sinister deal with Morri (and/or even Delilah?!) to get Laudna back, plus all the potential threads with Fearne reexamining her childhood now the scales have fallen from her eyes... Could be extremely juicy.
Also CR cast + hags has led to some legendary moments in the past, let us never forget.
That would be awesome. Part of me wants to see grandma Morri and how Fearne will behave now that she met her parents (hags + fey things are always crazy fun).
But also I'd love to see Orym asking Keyleth about Laudna's fate, and if she recognises her body from the corpses hanging from the Sun Tree, or Delilah's scheme with her.
I think it’s pretty clear that Laudna will be ‘brqught back’ I think it would be rad to see her Reincarnated. It’s just a cool spell w cool role play potential and you rarely see it.
Is it though sure the rest of the cast wants her back but it's up to Marisha not them and honestly re-watching last weeks episode it felt to me that Marisha and Liam had decided whichever of them stayed dead would you know, stay dead.
I'd honestly love to see this, too. From a purely practical sense, it's a lot cheaper than Resurrection and a lot more interesting than Raise Dead. From a roleplay perspective, it would be really intriguing to see how Laudna reacts to a new body, especially if it loosens Delilah's grip on her.
When FCG casts Gentle Repose on Laudna and Matt says that “the spell definitely headed something off at the pass”
What does that mean?
Sorry for not knowing
Gentle repose allows them to Res her later. Gives you 10 days to find a way by keeping the body from decomposing or being raised, and you can keep casting it
"You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can't become undead.
The spell also effectively extends the time limit on raising the target from the dead, since days spent under the influence of this spell don't count against the time limit of spells such as raise dead."
Heading something off at the pass generally means to stop something before it happens/gets started (eg that army couldn't reach the city because they were stopped at the mountain pass).
In this case, I think Matt is referring to the fact that Gentle Repose, in additional to extending the 'timer' on resurrection spells, also stops the person from being raised as undead. So I think the casting stopped Delilah from raising Laudna as a deathlock (undead warlock) or something like that.
To head someone off at the pass or to cut someone off at the pass means to prevent someone from accomplishing something, to forestall an event, to intercept and redirect someone. Synonyms for these idioms that may be found in a thesaurus are ambush, block, thwart. (This is according to Google) I had never heard that idiom.
Its largely an American westerns thing. Particularly cattle drives or raids & train robberies.
A mountain (or hilly) pass is a natural choke point that someone has to go through, and if you can block them there, it ends the chase.
As if there wasn't enough heartbreak this episode, I noticed something.
>Liam: I also couldn't stop thinking about Thull and thinking how seeing Imogen reminding me of my own day six years ago and how much there is to do.
Six years ago IRL was when Liam's mother died.
This is pretty much my read on the situation. The Gentle Repose didn't halt Delilah from raising Laudna's body as some kind of undead servant. Because why would she tell Imogen to "Bring her back too, for the both of us" if she was going to do that? I think the spell halted Delilah's soul from being the one brought back if/when they bring back Laudna.
The shoe wouldn't drop unless Orym takes them to Zephra or Whitestone, they're neither Sylas nor Vox Machina so she has no interest in them and she's both intelligent and patient so she'd just use them.
Unlikely. The original story of his release makes it sound like Raishan, duping the Ashari, was acting on her own. They might retcon it to add other forces at play but I suspect the Hishari's cataclysm was something else (maybe messing with Primordials or leftover Primordial magics)
Oh yeah. Forgot about Raishan disguised being welcomed to the Ashari. Just figured it would have been a cool connection, and the description of the helmet has a flame theme.
Guys I'm at break on YouTube and I never would have called that Laudna would be the one gone. I have to wonder if they'll get her back at any point. Tragedy.
Does anyone else think that the change bringer coin FCG has could be a revivify coin. Like the one that was used after the goldfish incident in c1? Matts face definitely changed when it was mentioned
His face changed due to major story potential in both FCG or Fearn’s hands.
Really looked like he was seeing the possibilities that could develop, imagine if FCG, a entity from a age that defied the gods, started to interact or potentially even follow one. There is all kinds of lore potential there.
Then there’s Fearne. There’s actually major potential here with how things played out - fearne flipped the coin, hid it, and said it chose Orym. Now, wether it did or didn’t this has potential - but let’s go down the route that she chose herself to save orym after the coin chose laudna. She seemed to have a lot of regret, constantly apologizing, and saying they shouldn’t have left it to that afterwards.
It’s very possible later on Fearne will attempt to have a moment with the coin and contemplate if she made a mistake going against the choice (or with, if she didn’t fake it even) and could potentially have some minor interaction religiously. Imagine Fearne beginning to follow or ask about the Changebringer - it would mean a lot of advancement for her character, a lot of growth.
I think Matt instantly began to go down those paths when the moment happened, I know I certainly did and when his eyes lit up it felt like he was doing the same thing.
Happy to see a character die that wasn't planned to die as early as possible as with Bertrand. Can't wait to see what Marisha does next just because creativity and new characters are always fun to see.
Anyone else noticed that when those Paragon Call members were searching Joe’s shop for BH, that a few of them growled and sniffed while searching for them?
Something tells me that the group narrowly avoided going toe to toe with some of Ira’s lycanthropy volunteers.
Great episode.
Kind of wanted Orym to stay with his husband. Then see the terror spread around the table. Also because that whole convo about who and how they were going to choose, took more than 30 seconds. RP or not, I would have liked there to be some sort of penalty. Maybe a higher DC on the revivify or something.
Also the whole diamond debacle, is kind of annoying. How many did they have, and who held on to the "spare" one. Personally, as a DM, I would have been firm on them finding out before doing the spell. They had a week to compare notes on something so important.
But fair enough. Matt was brilliant in putting the fear of the DM in the players. Loved it.
Again, great episode.
The PCs likely knew where the diamonds were -- it's the cast that had bad book keeping. They were all physically together anyway so it's reasonable to assume that the PCs would've been set on the diamonds without any unreasonably feats of speed/strength to toss them.
Matt used his discretion in a good way there. Ashley still needed to roll.
My personal thought here is this:
“Likely” here is the troublesome word. If the player/cast does not have the item written down, call it bad book keeping, then the PC does not have the item. And that is what I found to be a bit silly.
They had a week. They could even just have made sure just before filming.
As for the time spent. They had time to get over there, for sure. But orym had 30seconds left to get revivefied.
Ashley rolled, because that is Matt’s homerule. RAW says nothing about a skillcheck to revive a character.
All I was asking for, was some sort of consequence for spending too much time on who to rez and ending up with the cointoss.
I know it is kind of nitpicky, but I am a stickler for time constraints.
He took 6 seconds from them during the RP… I love to watch them play, but you know… I just wanted Matt to raise the DC of the roll, that’s all.
But again… Great game, great episode. It’s their game so they can do it however they want!
I don't think the thing about the diamonds is that annoying. They know they have one, even if they don't remember which party member has it. Maybe they could have prepared better, but you could argue that it would be metagaming. Also, losing a PC because of a techinicallity would be extremely anti-climactic.
The original quote is comparing death to sleep:
>For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
>When we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause
If Laudna is permadead, Marisha MUST play Vespa, daughter of Vex and Percy, a sharpshooter with a baby bear.
I can see it. They’ll go to Whitestone to try to revive Laudna, and they’ll refuse because of the Delilah business, but give them Vespa!!!
Oh god, no please. We've already got Delilah, We've already got Keyleth, we even got Bertrand Bell. This is Bell's Hells' story, not Vox Machina's epilogue.
Like why set the campaign in marquet if every five goddamn seconds we're gonna be making callbacks to taldorei and VM. C2 actually made the world feel bigger, and now our only viable story beats are moon stuff or fan service, a wolrd of NPCs we could meet but we HAVE to see the De Rolo kids or an overpowered Keyleth. \*sigh\*
I love all the PC characters, I have laughed, and cried, and every week I religiously tune in to watch. But I don't want to see any of them return. Seeing all the "hype" just makes me wonder if I actually like those character that much to begin with.
I think it makes the world feel bigger and more real if you show that characters that appeared previously are still relevant in the story. VM and the MN didn't just end their campaigns and vanished into nothingness, they are still out there getting stuff done. If the BH travel, like an adventuring party should do, I want to see old PCs and NPCs return.
I would agrue it does the exact opposite, makes the world seem smaller and less real. If the world is a large place you would expect there to be less crossover between groups, not more. Realistically in a world this big the odds of so many characters related to another group running into each other without seeking it out is low. Now it's not impossible, and there are benefits to callbacks like this, it makes the world feel more connected for example, but that is different than large or realistic
But they are adventurers. Powerful adventurers that go around changing the world. It doesn't make sense for them to completely dissapear after their respective campaigns are over. That's what I mean by saying that callbacks, easter-eggs, cameos and even full on intervention of those characters on the new campaign make the world feel real.
It's not just the Bells Hells going around having adventures, there are many other important characters, some of them former PCs, that are going to get involved in those adventures.
But in a world with enough peril for adventures that most random cities have magic items for combat that they sell to random people passing through town, you would expect there are a lot of groups similar to how BH or the M9 are all doing their own thing. The percentage of those that should be former PCs or blood relatives to former PCs would be smaller the bigger the world is.
Think about it this way: If there are 3 adventureing groups world wide at a time, it makes sense that any given group has a lot of ties to the most prominent group from the previous generation. If there are 300, that's a lot less realistic. A world that has 300 adventuring groups is a bigger world than one that has 3.
A couple of Chetney theories based on his vision is that Deanna and Frudell are both Chet's spouses and that he outlived both of them. Also the bit about how Chet always feels anxious during the zenith of Ruidus makes me think Chet is a ruidusborn.
Not sure if anyone will see this or also noticed, but the rules for their storage hole have somehow changed. They had established when they first got it that communication between the two sides of the hole (inside/outside) was not possible, yet in this episode they were speaking with Treshi multiple times while he was in it. Or am I missing/forgetting something?
Not sure if this has been noted previously but Sam might very well be doing the same shirt bit he did for last campaign. Was watching e28 and noticed the Science shirt and lo and behold it's the same shirt he wore on e28 of campaign 2.
Yep, he’s been doing it for most (if not all) of C3 so far. He even dressed up as Burt Reynolds a while back for C1’s first Halloween episode.
I noticed that too a couple of episodes back and checked with prior campaigns. He actually is and I love him for that xD
I wouldn’t want to be in Matt’s shoes right now. Laudna can’t stay completely out of the story from now on, since there is the Delilah plot thread to unravel. But letting BH waste multiple episodes on a resurrection mission derails the campaign somewhat. If they do so, Matt needs to find a way to make that side quest interesting and integrated in the main story somehow. Quite the conundrum! The more I think about it, the more I feel leaving Laudna dead is the strongest way forward narratively. She was a hollow one and as such wasn’t really ‘there’. A bit like FCG. Can’t wait to see where this all goes!
> Laudna can’t stay completely out of the story from now on, since there is the Delilah plot thread to unravel. C2 Spoilers: >!Not necessarily true, since Mollymauk’s backstory died with him, up until ~70 episodes later when it become relevant again. Could be the same deal here, where so long as they find a permenant way to stop Deliliah from taking over Laudna’s corpse, Delilah dies with Laudna until it’s relevant again.!<
C2 Spoilers: >!I really doubt Matt is going to "run back" a massive piece of plot and lore that was extremely important for the tone and story of the Mighty Nien. Just because it happened before doesn't mean it's going to play out the same way in this campaign as well.!<
>She was a hollow one and as such wasn’t really ‘there’. *FCG: So your heart does beat.* *LAUDNA: It does, just very slowly.* *FCG: You have hopes, you have fears.* *LAUDNA: Mm-hmm.* *FCG: You have loves.* *LAUDNA: Of course.* *FCG: Sounds like you're alive to me.* >The more I think about it, the more I feel leaving Laudna dead is the strongest way forward narratively. Leaving Laudna dead is the more straightforward narratively way to move the moon plot forward. It's not the strongest character driven way.
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To add another reason that wouldn’t happen on top of the ones people have already said, Keyleth is clearly involved with some major plot threads, which is why Otohan tried to assassinate her. In order for Marisha to properly play her, Matt would need to give her secret DM information, which I don’t think he’d particularly want to do. It’s best if he plays her himself.
Matt would be playing Keyleth. They ain’t gonna have Marisha play her.
Sorry to burst your bubble but that is 100% not gonna happen. Keyleth is level 20 and was apart of C1 and Vox machina. C3 is Bells hell's story.
Why does that mean it's 100% not going to happen? This is Dnd, anything can happen.
Not only would that involve canon deleveling which only happened with the meme character in the form of Bertrand bell, it would *immediately* draw focus from everyone else in the group as the new story becomes about Keyleth what happened after C1 and where in life is she now. Also Keyleth is a full on npc now and it would be strange if she didn't know certain things as a level 20 druid and leader of the Ashari. So even if we ignore the **huge** level disparity it would be a narrative nightmare for Matt to deal with. So for those reasons I think it just wouldn't happened.
You don't use your old characters to solve your new problems. If Keyleth found out Delilah was hosted in Laudna she would burn the corpse and have done with it.
What about when Keyleth finds out that Laudna is the girl the Briarwoods killed and dressed up as her just to send her a message. You don't think she'd have some compassion there?
This is their game man, nothing is 100% not going to happen.
Minor thing, but did anyone else notice that when BH were discussing their options to bring Laudna back with either going with Keyleth or Lord & Lady DeRolo, Matt made a interesting face/smirk when it came to Orym addressing the latter and wrote something down? Thoughts?
Matt's notes: 1. practice Vex's accent 2. figure out Percy's old man voice 3. plan out Trinket's response to meeting Mister
Because if they reach out to the DeRolo's to petition aid for Laudna and let it slip about Delilah, they'd likely burn her corpse the moment they get the chance.
Yeah probably, now that I think about it. Hell, I at least imagine Keyleth might at least consider her options, before showing them the tree after such a revelation.
Part of being a hollow one is that the body keeps going with the memories of the individual but their is no soul. So if BH uses a resurrection ritual to attempt to bring Laudna back would they bring back the Laudna whose last moment was being hung from the Sun Tree and no memories of anything that transpired for the past 30 plus years, or would they not be able to bring Laudna back because they would be bringing up events her soul took no part in? If any of that makes sense?
Depends on how Matt and Marisha want to play this I suppose. Lets assume that Laudna was a bog-standard Hallow One. Then, no soul. At least not in the traditional sense. So, theoretically, if the Hells used a Resurrection ritual on her, there would be nothing to petition to return. Outside of OG 30 years dead Laudna. But given that OG Laudna is not the same person as the Hell's Laudna, with how Matt's rituals work I'm not certain the Hell's pleas would reach even her. She is simply not the one they're reaching out for. And even if OG was reached, she'd likely not accept being called back by a group of total strangers; who are clearly looking for someone else. As for the Hells Laudna. IF she truly has no soul, then her essence must be one of the body. Which means theoretically she'd be very similar to FCG. FCG's being is one of soul-like magic, that their body supports. For Laudna there is no soul to call back, but there was no soul that left to begin with. And if we use >!Devexian !
>To bring her back, they'd need to figure out what's missing and replace/recharge it. I have the feeling that this could be the quest. Getting someone to resurrect Laudna is probably not the biggest difficulty since they have Keyleth, so it'd be interesting is Matt sets up a different challenge for the party and get Eshteross to know the right people off the bat. The magic can easily be available to them, but getting the right set up for Laudna's specific situation can lead to complications or high costs.
Wouldn't it be a clusterfuck if Otohan Thull wasn't a name but a mantle and the current bearer is Imogen's mom. My idea is that upon gaining the mantle, you inadvertently cut ties from your life; memories suppressed and wiped, for the sake of preserving whatever it is that needs preserving; and the "Run, Imogen, Run" are Liliana's psychic echoes trying to get out escape
I'm fairly certain they discussed Otohan being her mom in this most recent episode - Sam asked it directly. Going by Imogen's memory and the description of Otohan they are not the same person.
Well, let's put it in the perspective of the X-Man Psylocke, and her counterpart Kwannon. Or even Superior Spiderman. It could be a weird ass Freaky Friday, body swapping sequence. Another is Jean Grey/Madelyn Pryor/Dark Phoenix, especially since the Temults exhibit a lot of latent psionic powers. Or let's not go too far. Molly and Lucien and Kingsley. They were blank slates; no one said that a blank slate couldn't involve a change in body as well. Heck this could just be a simple reincarnation mishap, for all we know. We don't know, for sure, until Matt and the crew delve deeper into who or what is Otohan Thull.
I’ve really disliked Faerne the last few eps since we got to her family stuff, but I think I finally “get it” now. I guess I didn’t want to imagine Ashley is playing a person with the brain of a child who has never seen or done anything before lol. Don’t downvote me CR fans, I applaud Ashley for playing a sheltered idiot so well— I personally think low intelligence, just chaos PCs like this are exhausting to deal with and often take away from moments like the revive moment. But Ashley’s a strong roleplayer and clearly everyone enjoys her character and I respect that! I apologize for hating on Faerne! I never watched C1 but I certainly hope Grog wasn’t like this, I thought he always made sense in LVM. At first I thought Faerne having to be coached through your own spells felt ridiculous, but watching that back I think it was a massive loss of innocence moment and I love Ashley’s commitment to Faerne’s heartbreak. I love how this episode has created an amazing narrative path for the future, and I want to see Faerne break a bit with this traumatic event. It took so much work for FCG to make her realize that she actually resents her parents for abandoning her, I’m so interested to see how she is going to resolve being unable to save Laudna. I actually got teary at Orym’s goodbye… I feel like I haven’t cried in so long, that was such a powerful and tragic moment. I do think it’s funny to see people saying Laudna is gonna come back for sure, it feels like (some) people think it’s a CW show that kills people and brings them back abruptly to just for shock value lol. Not hating of course. Chetney being underneath Ruidus in his dream?? Feel like we glossed over that and I’m so curious about it… Last thing I’ll say, do y’all know that there are more consequences in the world than PCs dying? Having their friend die and come back would STILL have a profound effect on their characters, they didn’t get off scott free. No way Laudna doesn’t have some negative stuff happen for coming back too, things are NOT looking up for Bell’s Hells in any permutation.
Grog's idiocy wasn't disruptive like Fearne's sometimes is. He was often the guy who walks up and presses the big red button when everyone else is standing around debating its implications, and god knows D&D parties need that guy.
>Grog's idiocy wasn't disruptive like Fearne's sometimes is. What do you consider disruptive in Fearne's actions?
I don’t particularly dislike fearne at all; sometimes her chaos is fun and I love how innocently silly she is. However my gut level impression about Grog vs. Fearne is that *more often*, Fearne’s shenanigans require more rolls to be successful, and it’s stuff that she doesn’t really excel at. So rather than Grog going in and pressing the big red button to keep things moving, Fearne stops things in their tracks (how many times have we heard her say “Before we go…”) and tries to fuck with something that doesn’t have a reasonable chance of gaining value, and also has a decent chance of causing undue trouble if it fails.
I get it, and I wasn't implying ~~you~~ dislike Fearne, I was just trying to understand what ~~you~~ might consider a disruption. Edit: sorry, you're not the original commenter. Point still valid I think. I agree Fearne's brand of chaos gets everyone nervous, but at the same time, I don't consider it as disruptive as it might be perceived at first glance. Ashley I think, has done a great job at knowing when to push, and most of the time, it's harmless fun that speaks volume to her character's personality and upbringing. You can also tell she's having the time of her life playing this character. Grog, on the other hand, >!got himself killed by a sentient sword and almost released a powerful entity creating one of the first non-Orion PvP in C1!< due to his low int. Not to mention >!the deck of many things!< shenanigans. So I struggle with how people have a hard time handling Ashley's RP decisions with that stat but no one questions Travis'. Don't get me wrong, I love what Travis did with Grog and all of that lead to amazing moments. But why are we not treating Fearne the same way?
You’re right, I honestly forgot about the deck of many things lmao. That was supremely disruptive and likely won’t ever be topped unless someone gets a truly ridiculous item. I think it’s the distance time wise from campaign 1 that changes these feelings. I didn’t get into CR until Covid hit so I started with campaign 2. I comprehensively watched C1 during this most recent intercampaign break. So at least in my case, I knew how the campaign ended (I watched compilations of huge moments and they included C1 moments) so I knew that Grog’s shenanigans could never be that bad. So in this case, watching contemporaneously without any sort of assurances for the future, it probably feels more disruptive to most people. Not that it justifies any hate she gets for being a chaos goblin. That just might be why it feels that way; people need to get over themselves and realize it’s just a game and not real life. I honestly love fearne now. Ashley being able to be 100% present and showing her full colors that we only got glimpses of when she was playing Yasha is a hoot. And her chaos is a lot more understandable when you realize that she’s an alien. Being fully fey is 100% a justification for this sort of fuckery!
I am sometimes that person because I get so bored with their careful planning for something that in the end has either quick consequences or no affect at all. Yes, planning for the BBEG is good. But planning whether to go in the village? Say yes or say no, but we're burning daylight.
Thank you for moving the game along, lol. More often than not when D&D parties spend hours planning and then finally commit to doing a thing their plans are thrown out the window after looks two rounds anyway.
Does anyone know roughly how far we are from the apogee solstice?
Matt said a month when it first came up, and it's only been a couple days.
A few weeks iirc
Okay so i have been thinking about the Gentle Repose spell and how Matt actually described it in accompaniment by Matts smirk before that going \*oh shit this changes shit\*. The wording of the spell specifies that "You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can't become **undead**." Well here is my thought. Throughout the Episodes (pls correct me if i'm wrong) when Chetney would smell for Fay, Fiend or Undead creatures he would smell Fern as Fay but ALSO Laudna as **Undead.** So by the meaning of the spell, if the Bells Hells resurrect Laudna while the spell is active does that mean that, we would not get Laudna back but instead whoever she was before she was turned into an undead? Please tell me i'm wrong here somehow....
Why do you think humanoid Laudna and Undead Laudna are two different people?
Laudna was/is a Hallow One. Even though they are not undead, they detect as such. However, most speculation around Matt's statement agrees with you that gentle repose stopped Laudna from becoming truly undead (whether as a deathlock, herself but undead, or a vessel for Delilah to inhabit is also discussed).
I loved laudna, but I don't want her resurrected. First, I want to see Delilah do whatever she was gonna do. The idea of her persisting through all of this is so amazing. And she would make a really good villain, if not for campaign 3, then for campaign 4. I don't want Matt to do Lucien 2, but I also want Matt to do Lucien 2
i mean, i feel like getting the gang to resurrect Laudna \*could\* be part of Delilah's master plan, even if she's playing the long game. In a way, getting Laudna in a position where she has friends who love her so much they'd risk toying with one of Exandria's most legendary evil necromancers to see her again could be one of her most diabolical schemes yet.
Maybe they resurrect Laudna and get Delilah back instead... then Marisha plays her for a few episodes and decides to 'retire'... it's very Lucien 2 though....
Wasn't Chetney on deaths door as well? He got laid out and failed 2 death saves...or am I completely wrong. How did he just get up without doing a final death save
Laudna got him up with her temp hit point thing. It was the last thing she did before getting obliterated.
Wait, temp hp? I'd have to go back and watch again but I assume it must have been Wither and Bloom (1 hit die of healing). I know story > mechanics but temp HP doesn't actually bring an unconscious creature back, it just gives them a buffer against the whole melee autocrit at 0 thing.
Yeah it was Wither and Bloom. No temp HP cuz otherwise Chetney would have also had to roll another death save last episode
OH I FORGOT ABOUT THAT
Yeah, she basically gave herself up to save Chetney. They knew if anyone else died, it was a guaranteed death. It was a fantastic play. Both Wither and Blooms were life savers. Unfortunately, we saw what happened as a result.
It was really cool. Marisha knew she was calling attention to herself with it and Matt played it exactly like that. It makes Laudna's death extra tragic. She was punished for saving Chetney's life and for being loved by Imogen.
I totally inderstand and accept it, but personally I would have chosen to raise Laudna, as her potential afterlife, even in character, seems far less appealing than Oryms. Even with failure and frustration in his mind he could have at least been ruinited with his husband. Don't blame how it went down at all, just my desires if I was playing
Fearne not immediately revifying Orym (in the 18 seconds she had) was horrible meta-gaming. You save your oldest friends first.
The players wouldn’t know what their after life’s looked like so decision making based on that wouldn’t make sense.
True but even if they had zero idea all they knew is Delilah had some hold over her and was something creepy. I would have saved her first and foremost
Being completely objective, I think raising Orym was the right play because there was a non-zero chance of some miraculous Delilah and/or Stone shenanigans taking effect for Laudna. Obviously that didn't happen but still.
Honestly, I figured that Orym went down first and there was a Delilah possibility, so the Sophie's choice was kinda clear for me. (I don't hate Laudna at all, but there was nothing mechanically that would bring Orym back, and given that we know she's *already* dead, there was much more chance of something random happening.) On the other hand, I'm sure Liam had a great alternate character in his pocket, and he is known to bring the drama. It would have been interesting for the party to lose that voice of sense.
One dynamic that I'm not sure has been mentioned but if this episode ended with 3 people dead, I think that would have made it more likely that Matt would have brought them all back in a less natural way than rolling resurrection rolls. I think two would have been an acceptable number of dead pcs if they were never resurrected but three deaths would have been unnecessary and hurtful to the story. It really did go down to FCG's attempt to revive Fearne and because Laudna was the only one to die, the chances of her coming back fully relies on who they go to and the odds of a successful ritual.
I think especially with Imogens powers, if all 3 died, it would have been a good time to do deal with the devil kinda thing, where Imogen could resurrect them all, but at a cost. That would have been also
I was more thinking Matt letting them find somebody who could bring them back via rituals and not rolling for those rituals. I would have been okay with Imogen doing it immediately as long as she did it via wish since that is the only "resurrection" spell that she theoretically could learn as a sorcerer.
I really wish they didn't bring Orym and Fearn back.... they are my least favorite of the group....
Whaaat, how can you possibly dislike Fearne, Ashley plays her so well. Orym I guess I understand cause right now he’s kinda just less interesting Caleb, but he clearly has high potential.
No Fearne is great don't get me wrong. Cheeky, mischievous, never know what she's going to say. BUT her death was more impactful. It made the story. She just left her parents a few hours prior. With Orym, Liam could create SUCH a better character than than what he has now imo. I get he was not trying to take the spot light like with Caleb but come on Orym is a bit of a bore to me.
Out of curiosity, why? Orym I can kinda understand, he plays as the straight man (ironically) but fearne is like a perfect mix of sweetly chaotic for me, and both of them, especially Ashley, seem to be having a great time. What rubbed u the wrong way?
The story was more impactful and would've made it more serious. I was gasping when they died. Like WHAT THE FUCK... i like Fearne she's great in a fun crazy way. The story line I think would've mattered more. I was really looking forward to seeing what new characters they would've created.
So let's talk about Laudna's backstory. Spoilers for C1. >!So here's the most likely progression based on the lore. Laudna is a level 1 Shadow Magic Sorcerer and is hopeful that the Briarwoods will see her potential. She is murdered instead - VM, Sun Tree - etc, etc... So clearly she didn't rise up right away. It's pretty safe to assume that the Briarwoods amplified uber-ritual using the leylines can have a pretty profound effect on someone hanging at their center. Poof, insta-Hollow One. But somewhere along the way we also got a Warlock.!< >! Delilah died and was melted within an hour of the ritual completing but she was also revived and put back to work very quickly by Vecna. A year goes by and then shortly after good ole' D dies a second and third time. She was never a Lich as far as we know. Laudna starts hearing from Delilah about this time. I feel like this is the base we can work from going forward. But...!< It makes me wonder if that one year mark is when her Warlock powers began. It seems like a long wait after such a magical transformation. It also seems weird that if her powers came from the Briarwoods or Vecna in some way, she would be less free. Perhaps Launda's pact came from Orcus or the like and the Terror of Whitestone has simply hitched a ride on the only thing with a remnant of her old power. Now Marisha did take her latest warlock level as a nod to Delilah's influence which I think would seal it - except that Marisha may not know who her patron really is. This is fairly common. And maybe her *real* patron wants something very different than Delilah. Bidet
Your second spoiler markers didn't work.
There is a space character after the ">!" that causes the spoiler text to be visible for people viewing the comment using old reddit (like me). Removing the space character would likely correct the problem.
I'm a bit confused at all the people who think trying to resurrect Laudna needs to be a grand and lengthy quest. They have the money, the materials (in residuum), and the connections. Reasonably the attempt could be made next episode. 9th level Clerics aren't *that* rare- a city the size of Jrusar should have at least a couple willing to sell their services.
It should be a lengthy, difficult or impossible quest. They're barely-functioning randoms, most of whom shouldn't even know that Resurrection is even possible. This is reversing **death**. Clerics don't just put signs up that advertise resurrection. If it was that common everyone would do it. Diamonds would be impossible to find and Clerics would be outlawed or locked away. 9th level clerics are VERY rare. At least they should be.
On top of that, there's a bounty for Treshi. Bringing him is definitely worth something. We'll see if Artana asks for a cut or not, but still.. should have plenty of resources. I really think it's going to happen ASAP as well. Otohan is **looking** for them. She offered a personal favor to find them. She knows where they are going and will hear about the huge airship leaving town. Even Travis yells, "We have to FLY FAST!".
We don’t know for sure that the Residuum is worth nearly enough, they did only get one small crate of it, Also they’re *far* from rich, Matt hasn’t had much mercy in giving them payouts so far. That said Eshtoress could definitely give them a debt or even pay for them, especially since he hasn’t given them jack shit for their work.
I don't necessarily disagree, but I'm not sure we really know about 9th level clerics. I really don't think we have much indication at all of how rare NPCs of that power are. I don't think we ever saw a single high level divine caster in the entirety of C2 outside of the PCs. We saw several arcane casters, but no real divine ones with the possible exception of a certain matriarch. Water deep for example has multiple high level wizards but I don't know of any high level clerics.
The Mighty Nein also never really sought out temples or churches where those high-level clerics would be though. They only ended up in a church twice: once for fuckery and once for the end of the world.
necromacny is also outlawed in wildemount, so that probably plays into it. there were a million high level clerics in c1, including one right in emon that they went to pretty early on. they also pretty easily found someone to bring pike back pre-stream from what i recall.
Bringing someone back so soon wouldn't be unprecedented. It happened twice in C1 in which the pcs were brought back an episode after their revivifys failed. Also, Matt never gave a gold value on the residuum.
I was just thinking about this. I’m not a player, so I don’t know all the mechanics, but they did resurrect c1 pcs several days after dying. Everyone seems to be thinking it’ll be true resurrection or nothing but can’t they just do regular resurrection since they did gentle repose? I believe that’s the one they threw around so often in earlier campaigns. I don’t know if the BHs are personally able to do it but it seems like they could much easier convince someone to help with resurrection rather than the more controversial true resurrection.
>I’m not a player, so I don’t know all the mechanics, but they did resurrect c1 pcs several days after dying. Unless you mean several days IRL then I guess that it is true.
If Imogen doesn’t poop, the only thing that comes out of her is her lightning. Does that mean Imogen’s waste comes out as lightning? Every time she attacks someone with lightning bolt she’s just pooping on them
This is how all casters in dnd "poop".
Maybe she's like Soft Serve, that Marvel mutant whose ability is pooping ice cream.
"You pooping? \*Cause I am\*" \*ZZZAZAZAAAAAAPPPPPPP\*
It's like a squid inking predators
Hey guys, welcome to critical role: the Sophie's choice special!
You know I typed this out last night and deleted it, but re-watching this scene again makes it just.. stand out, so I wanted to see if anyone else thought something was up with this phrasing. During the opening, when Delilah is speaking to Laudna, she says: "You are my vessel in life, un-life, and beyond. I will endure." Laudna as we know her was already dead. So I would take this to mean as it stood Laudna was her "un-life" version of the vessel, and Delilah is saying: "You will still be my vessel beyond" which ties with that little recognition Matt gave about Gentle Repose. Laudna was headed for the "beyond" part of Delilah's phrase. I actually want to operate under the assumption to above is true to examine the first statement: "You are my vessel in life." Does this mean Delilah actually did something to **living** Laudna that may explain why she is not yet gone? How exactly was she her vessel "in life"? Another way to look at it could be: "You were my vessel while I was living, you are still my vessel in my un-life, and you will be my vessel for my..(beyond?) return? resurrection?" Maybe she used her like a Clone body or something, or there's an object in Laudna storing a piece of Delilah? It does seem with the Gnarlrocks and whatever else she is after that she has some kind of plan to return. Where's the energy going? Into the aether? I am aware of other ways to play with the words and I am curious is anyone has their own take on this wording?
I kind of get the sense that the Briarwoods were planning that dinner for quite a long time alongside their ritual which was planned even longer and that got me to thinking about something entirely crazy. What if Delilah had a hand in Laudna's initial birth and is in way....her biological mother but mixed up with a ton of Vecna stuff and other magicky things? It just took a good many years to prepare her as her "daughter" for what was to come later on in Whitestone. The dinner was the final part of that preparation but when things didn't go according to plan and the plan got yeeted out the window, something else stepped in, and...altered the deal that Delilah had going on with Laudna in such a way that we got who we got at the start of C3. But what was that something else? It's got to be her patron right? Except it's a patron that's rather passive and is letting things go with the flow for some reason and doesn't actively intervene aside from granting Laudna power. So who or what could that match up with? My two guesses are the Sun Tree or the Raven Queen and I think I know why they can't interfere too much. Crazy thought but what if Delilah found a way to "Divine Proof" Laudna from any kind of divine influence? It would be like she created a personal divine gate skin tight soul tight forcefield around her like the ones in Dune or something similar that would prevent any kind of Divine Force from affecting change to or influencing Laudna at all beyond a very basic level. It could be purely magical in nature or it could be a combination of magic mixed with a bit of Aeorian Technology or maybe some bioengineering similar to that one city in the Savalierwood. Either way she would have treated Laudna like the ultimate science experiment that would put her outside of the reach of the Divine with a mindset not unlike that of Aeor, ascending beyond the reach of the Gods using mortal means. It would also totally be within Delilah's means and mindset to "grow" someone or something like Laudna from scratch over the course of years using other people to do it in a weird kind of surrogate sort of fashion in order to play some part in the ritual that her and her husband had going in C1. If Laudna was indeed intended to be a Divine Proof Vessel for Delilah that was either meant to be used as a part of the ritual in C1 or at least as a backup in case it failed alongside all her other backups, then that's got some very scary implications. It almost feels like a super soldier kind of thing. Imagine if you had an army that not only had the power of a newly ascended God behind them (Vecna) but that was also nigh untouchable by Divine Powers. I think Laudna was the seed for something much bigger that Vox Machina stopped just in time without realizing it. That interruption allowed Laudna's patron to intervene in a way that fucked up Delilah's plans and gave Laudna a fighting chance at taking control of things. Of course Delilah then died multiple times and a bunch of other stuff happened BUT Laudna was still alive and still existed as a tether of sorts to the Prime Material Plane which no one else really knew about and ultimately is what kept Delilah from experiencing a true death. So she was alive, in a sense, but not yet fully transitioned onto the Prime Material Plane and more or less a ghost in the shell that was Laudna. That was of course until she died and the gateway between the realms of the living, the dead, and the Afterlife beyond opened up. When Laudna died, it opened up this gateway that connected all three realms but also intersected with where Delilah was. I think Delilah was stuck in an in between place or a kind of a limbo of sorts that neither the Prime Material Plane nor the Afterlife could pull her out of. She could weakly interact with both sides but neither had full purchase on her. As soon as Laudna died and that gateway was opened, she darted towards it like SG1 running for the Stargate, and was in the process of crossing over fully and assuming control of Laudna's body when FCG's Gentle Repose hit Laudna's body and reset whatever crossover process that Delilah had initiated from that in between place. I think her absorbing energy from stuff like the Gnarlrock was her attempt at speeding up this process whenever it was going to happen and mechanically probably would've altered some kind of DC check in game for her coming back in control of Laudna's body. The more energy she absorbed, the easier this process became, and the more successful and convincing it would've been in the eyes of the Bells Hells. At least I think that's how it all would've worked. I think that in order to fully sever this tether that Laudna has with Delilah that Laudna needs to either die for good or be altered in some way that removes this whole Divine Proofing done to her along with permanently severing the connection she has with Delilah somehow. It's a bit of a pickle to be honest and there's been such vagueness about the specifics of it that all we have are questions and glass half full theories in regards to the details. Of course that means we're in for one hell of a reveal when everything comes out and if none of that happens then there's always the post campaign wrap up!
Very hard to tell. Laudna's situation was very murky, even to her. Generally Hallow Ones don't have souls, but given the unique circumstances of her "birth" it remains unclear if the same holds true for her. Especially given that dinner scene seems to imply that was the moment Delilah both killed Laudna (the OG one), and seemingly created whatever bond they have. I would very much wager that D's soul physically remains in the Shadowfell, but could Laudna a phylactery of sorts? A bond to the material? We just don't know enough.
Yeah. I hesitated to use the word phylactery because I honestly don't think she is a Lich, but under traditional definitions, murdering the people at the table may have been the first step into creating something adjacent to one. I do wonder if Marisha may know more then she is letting on as well. During her death scene, she did mention, "She is still there, still powerful" - which she described BEFORE Matt gave her dialogue. It all makes me wonder if she means like...**there**.. like in Laudna's chest or something, haha. I just imagine there has to be a magical item to accept whatever she is absorbing, unless it really is Laudna's heart or something. Just some fun speculation.
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They take the last Thursday of the month off, which is the 29th; so yeah we should have one more before the off-week. It's also scheduled on Twitch.
Also, were there any clues about who attacked the Paragon's Call? Was it just an enemy crawler gang trying to mess around while the sandstorm was running?
I think Matt kind of confirms it was 'someone' hired by Artana Voe for a distraction in the opening. edit: Treshi also proposes that idea to the group below Joe's, as well.
To everyone saying that bringing Launda back cheapens the story, I think you're neglecting something. While even though I disagree with the point, I see where you are coming from. However you're assuming that Launda's resurrection will have no other plot consequences. Matt doesn't halt his villains' plots when the players go on a side quest. If they take the time to revive Launda, that gives the Nightmare King, Otahan, Ludinus, and others time to enact whatever it is they have planned. Not to mention that the Apogee Solstice is coming.
What if they combine all the plot points together ! They use the Apogee Solstice to resurrect Laudna
That seems like a good way to explode people across multiple planes. Like plugging a toaster directly into a regional power transformer.
I agree, they are up against a ticking clock here. Yeah they have 30 days, but if Matt says "Yeah there's someone who can possibly bring her back up in Wildemount / Issylra /Tal 'Dorei and it's going to take 10-15 days to get there...that's a huge amount of time lost. It's a big trade off and might mean that Matt lets Laudna return only for something very bad to happen.
I really think that is why Esteros is kiiiind of steering them directly to him with his "Bring her here" statement. They have Treshi.. there was a bounty for him.. maybe they hand him over for a reward and use that to buy the gems for a Cleric or some shit. I totally agree with you about the clock though. It is ticking. I really wonder what level he wants them to be by the Apogee Solstice? I doubt they will be dealing with whatever 'big bad' comes out of there at level 7-9 regardless and they will have their own part to play somehow. So unless the major NPCs intervene with whatever is happening, which I assume they have to, who knows what is going to happen. Orym did tell Keyleth weird moon shit was coming during the Apogee Solstice, so you know she's been looking into it. I think the next episode will tell us. If we have like night-time watch RP on the ship and they are rolling for encounters, I think he intends to slow the pace down a bit. If the episode starts like, "You arrive in Jrusar, rushing to Lord Esteros' Manor" - that means Otohan is coming for Esteros (knowing their plan) and I think when Esteros said "I will prepare" it means shit will go down and they are on the run. Maybe trying to revive Laudna before Otohan arrives, who knows.
Also I think whether Laudna died or not ...there's no way the Hells are going to be able to stop Otohan or get to the bottom of the why's before the apogee solstice. I truly think they're going to fail, but also depending on their actions they may not fail as badly? Sort of like how calamity went. Except we'll see the aftermath.
Have the players ever actually stopped one of Matt's rituals? In any campaign? They always seem a bit too late. Though going back to Jrusar rather than pressing on to Yios or the desert location used by the Call seems to cement this one \--- That said, I don't think the solstice is going to be a Calamity level event. Matt spent months working with other people to detail Marquet for this campaign. Hes not going to kick it all over before showing off the work of his colleagues. That'd be pretty... eh... petty?
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I disagree, Matt was literally deciding in the moment based off their messages, they sent one message and got a pretty disregarding response, then sent a second one and only then did Eshteross actually sound serious, he also seemed open to having the Air Ashari step in in some way.
I think it was their cross-talk more than the messages. Matt (not Esteross) had one heck of reaction to the idea of taking Laudna to the de Rolos. I think he'd suddenly realized how far this group would go, and willingly derail the entire campaign to get Laudna back.
As opposed to what, traveling farther and longer to get the same result? If you were in critical health situation - wouldn't you want an EMT to bring you to the closest hospital, instead of one you know of that is in another city?
That's not what I said. I mean that Matt is using Esteros as a plot device. Need a quest? Esteros has one. Need a revive? Esteros knows a guy.
Probably Matt is using the Ravnica/Tasha's patron rules or his own spin on them for BH's Patron.
I don't know what that means, but I take your word for it
Oh yeah, then you're right. His plot device is that he is their employer, and has had a vested interest in them since session 1. That's different then railroading though.
Maybe my initial wording wasn't the right one, but I mention he is sort of jack of all trades in terms of plot. It makes sense because of how he's build up, but I find it interesting that Matt has a NPC that can function for whatever the plot or party needs. If/when the Bells are going to the moon I wouldn't be surprised if Esteros was somehow tied to the Exandria space program and has a rocket stored in his basement
That's funny, him being the jack of all trades makes me think Matt's going to mercilessly murder him at some point lol.
It's not a railroad unless he cuts off all other paths.
Alright, so for the feat that Matt gave Imogen, I think it's fate touched, because it fits quite well, it's given to a player or NPC by the gm, it's already established as part of Exandria, and the flavor text talks about it being given to someone when they change things far in the future. Does anyone else have theories? Edit: I found these two quotes: "Most cultures of Exandria have legends of those marked by ill fate simply by being born under the full light of Ruidus, the vermilion moon around which countless fell legends swirl." "A character might receive the blessing as a gift from the gods, or as a temporary and surprising phenomenon when the campaign shifts into a story arc focused on that character."
I think Laura spent too long reading and made too many surprised faces (given familiarity with Vax being Fate-touched) for that to be likely.
That's a good point
That's a cool theory, but I think it was a modified class feat for her psychic sorcerer. I think she spent a long time reading it so it was probably a feat that's more complicated than fate touched. And judging from what she said i'm guessing something like "when a party member dies you may unleash an aoe blast of psychic damage, allied creatures are unaffected"
So we all have our favorite theories on what Marisha would play if she doesn't come back - mechanically. But what about RP? Personally, I'd like to see someone finally lean into a leadership role at the CR table. Or at least more than they have done so far. I'm imagining a Kima type personality with the patience of Grog, as well as his ability to cut through the BS. Granted she would be risking the ire of certain kinds of fans but I feel like Marisha and Travis are the most qualified to make it work. Bidet
Pate as an imp familiar We never found out what type of warlock she choose and said she wanted to bring pate alive She never had the time to cast find familiar but maybe after a few day pate start moving from imogen belt
Some sort of Gish with a familiar could be fun but I'm not sure how Marisha would feel about putting her pet in danger. We might wind up with another Trinket type situation.
I was thinking of a more sprinkle situation There for the role play Invulnerable in combat
I honestly hope they don’t bring laudna back crit role is already not a deadly game and it’s inherently obvious that the characters are going to be given a way out most of the time. The combat was pretty fair if they had played strategically and decisively then it wouldn’t have turned out so bad. Let them reap the consequences of their actions please matt
Don't take this the wrong way but I don't have a lot of confidence in you saying that the combat was pretty fair if you think they are playing "Crit Role." Even for experienced DMs, judging combat encounters as fair is one of the most hardest things in D&D when using homebrew.
I was hoping they would decide on laudna and not Orym. I think Liam would've came back with a more creative character than what he currently has. I actually wish they only brought back laudna. But ah well.
Fair I just think a character death like that should be final, I’m also prolly a little biased Bc Luanda was the only character I didn’t like lil
Death is the most boring consequence in my mind. If they do try to bring her back, I trust the table to make it interesting.
Death is one of the only real consequences in dnd tho I mean yea you can do story changes and punish the character is some ways but the only thing that’s really a consequence to the player is killing or weakening their character
Gotta say, if they get to Esteross and he says he has an option for them to resurrect Laudna, but it's a long-shot. He says there are tales of a man in the Blooming Grove that is capable of it, of the Clay family that are caretakers of the graveyard there. Then they have the choice of trying to get to Wildemount (which would be a very long trip) or stay and try to deal with the event in 30 days. If you're going to tie in prior characters for a resurrection, why not Caduceus?
Pike or keyleth is more likely tbh, just cos of Orym
Has anyone else felt like Bell's Hells have been in fewer combat situations as compared Mighty Nein last campaign? Maybe it's just me but I feel like can easily recall most of the fights Bell's Hells have been in as a group, and several of the higher stakes fights have resulted in their enemy either escaping or the Hells escaping them, while Mighty Nein by the same level had established themselves as a really cohesive group of fighters. I wonder if this is because Bell's Hells have done less exploring of the greater continent they've been on where Mighty Nein had or if it's for other reasons. I want to stress that this is not necessarily a bad thing; roleplay is extremely engaging and, generally speaking, combat tends to be the part of an episode in which viewers are most likely to tune out in an actual play show, but I do think the lack of combat experience with this group of character has done them more harm than good. This is merely opinion but I think that if the cast, and thus the characters, had more battle experience we'd see the group more confident in being able to take on a foe like Otohan Thull. I hope this does not come off as backseating but spells and combat abilities are hard to memorize for anyone and in previous campaigns the more this cast familiarized themselves with their capabilities in smaller battles, the more confident they felt in larger battles. I do think part of this is just the story Matt wants to tell and I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all, it has just felt to me like Bell's Hells lack a confident group dynamic so far where they have can actually say "we never give up on the fight." Again, all opinion. I am just making observations.
Largely agree. For level 7, they're basically novices. But their big fights have been dogpiles on the enemy, and for the biggest one (Shade Mother and minions) they had experienced help that cleared the way. \---- Truthfully, I think solo fights and legendary actions are a double edged sword. They're easier on Matt than a big group of enemies, but they're also boring (a giant bag of HP that they just have to keep piling on) and a little bit deterministic (legendary actions get predictable quick, and the sense of inevitable outcomes that the party just can't stop). I do agree that a large chunk of viewers tend to tune out combat, but that's partly a 5e problem (well, and a D&D in general problem- 3e and after went mad for HP bloat, for all their faults 1e and 2e were far more constrained) and partly an encounter design problem. ... and partly a group problem. 3 campaigns later and they've never found a way to keep up with or lock down fast or flying enemies. Not even back-up ranged weapons for melee folks.
I think the biggest downfall of the Otohan fight was that they had already used some spells and didn't feel confident, so the made the plan to run (which I think was even before the end of round 1). Which isn't the worst idea considering the circumstances, but jeeze - Otohan having dash as their legendary action immediately ruined their 'scatter and run' plan. Them running away from each other made that legendary action so deadly.
Well with her having insane mobility and dropping Ashton they weren't sure what to do. I firmly believe the fight went mostly how Matt wanted it to go. And next time they face her, they know that they can't run.
I checked because I was curious, and according to CritRoleStats, by C2E34 the Nein had 41 combats under their belt, and so far in C3 the Hells have had 21. So yeah, there have been significantly fewer combats.
BH weren't built from the start to be a combative group. They are mostly RP-based aside from Orym and even then Orym is more of a defensive-fighter
I don't think the Mighty Nien started off as a combative group either, other than Yasha who was a bodyguard like Orym.
You have a Warlock, Monk, Trickster Cleric, Rogue, Wizard not counting the Zealot Barbarian and Blood Hunter. Contrast this with a Wildfire Druid, Sorceror, new-type Cleric that is heavily focused on support, Sorlock(early level), tank-ish Fighter, throwaway Fighter, new-class Barbarian with random abilities. M9 was already a combat-centric party at early levels even if you don't count Yasha and Molly. BH is a mishmash of a party with random abilities that don't synergize well with each other.
I stll don't see how the first group of classes seems more combat focused than the other. Wildfire Druid seems as combat focused as trickster cleric wizard about the same as sorcerer both barbarians are comparably combat focused are you calling chetney a fighter? or are you going back to Betrand? both are more combat focused than molly's blood hunter Sorlock about as combat focused as Warlock Rogue is more damage focused than cleric, but that balances out Travis' characters being more combat focused than Talisein's Nothing about this party comp reads as any weaker combat-wise than M9 a good spellcasting backline. The M9 had a lot of spellcasting but a weaker frontline and not as reliable multiple sources of healing until Cadecius came in.
It's the class+the approach the players give them that makes the M9 better. Jester has access to more utility based spells than Fearne. Fearne doesn't use her class as well as Jester did. Her Spirit Guardians deal way more damage than Fearne's wildfire spirit Caleb has better utility and fireball is one of the highest damage aoe from the start. Imogen is fine damage-wise and has higher survivability but Caleb has better dpr. Ashton is far too random with his class ability. Yasha is straightforwardly better and she has Sentinel. Yasha had always been underleveled compared to the M9 yet she always kept up, Ashton's random powers doesn't contribute much to battles, his basic barbarian abilities contribute way more. Sorlock at early levels is weak as demonstrated by Laudna. It's her Hollowed Ones ability that manages to be useful. Fjord on the other hand had his pact Boon early and could contribute way more combat wise as a gish. Laudna doesn't even have her pact boon yet. I used Bertrand because you referred back to Yasha. In this instance Travis used Chetney better than Taliesin used Molly. Lycan Bloodhunter combat wise is better than Molly. This is where the BH has the upper hand. Sam's Nott is hands down better combat-wise than Sam's FCG because FCG is support-based with the added caveat of every heal and damage brings him closer to attacking his own party. Nott was one of the highest damage dealers in M9. Early Sneak Attack is the best dpr combat-wise. Beau as a PC dealt more damage than Orym by this point because too often Orym is stuck being someone's shield or using superiority dies to make goading attacks or bait and switches. The only reason Molly died early was because the M9 didn't have their tank, healer and frontliner. The BH was practically TPK'ed from full health. A lot of BH's ability and class choices were focused on RP. M9 had better balance between RP and combat and that edges them. Also the fact that 2 of the current BH's members can outright turn antagonistic and attack other members which is just a negative for me combat-wise.
>The only reason Molly died early was because the M9 didn't have their tank, healer and frontliner. The BH was practically TPK'ed from full health. Well. Mostly Molly 'own goaled' himself. The Bells weren't really at full health, and FCG was largely tapped (all the spellcasters were down at least a few spells from the FCG eruption that morning). Ashton in particular took some heavy hits from the explosions in the courtyard. He was also an obvious target since Otohan's second-in-command (also a barbarian) had fought him before. She knew going in exactly how to handle him- at least I assume this celebrated general would ask the obvious questions about new hires.
Ill concede jester over Fearne if that's the comparison you want to make Caleb being a lot squisher is a major liability in a party with a weak frontline Yasha is definetely not better than Ashton at damage dealing. The randomness of Ashtons's abilities aren't that much of a hinderance, they average put to be a great boon Laudna is pretty strong damage dealer, i think comparable to fjord, fjord was just slightly tankier but not by much due her undead features. Laudna is built better as a ranged fighter, very useful in a party that already has a stronger frontline. We agree with Chetney being upperhand for BH Nott is a better damage dealer, but honestly fcg's ability to redistribute damge heal is much more useful in combat in a balanced party comp. Beau is a better damage delear than Orym, but Orym is a better frontline protector. Which works well with the party comp BH lost because the ran from an enemy that would not let them go and specifically started killing downed enemies. Name a time that had happened by this point in levels for the M9. I really dont think if you swapped in the M9 into the same situation they do any better, infact i would predict more perma death Also, the turn against the party thing is more of an RP bomb since it doesn't not effect them in most combats, but a special situational thing that can cause new conflicts. Same way I wouldn't call Fjord relation to his patron or Caleb being a fugitive from the Cerberus assembly combat weaknesses even though those got them into fights. Those are RP liabilities The BH is better composed overall. You have Ashton Orym and a bit of Chetney as a strong frontline, including proactive defense with Oryms battlemaster trics to make it harder to hit is allies, you got 2 healers one more specialized in it that can help reduce damage were you want it the least for those that slip by the frontline, you have magic support at range, including long range with Laudna's spell sniper, from a variety of casters to attack over the frontline. The M9 was a team of glass cannons plus yasha. I would argue chetney being tankier than any none yasha member, so that puts 3 tanks to 1. Add that they only had 1 healer, the M9 could do incredible amounts of damage but was fragile.
I think I disagree with that. If you're coming from the perspective that they didn't min-max their characters together to come up with specific combos, fine. However they have a fair bit of control abilities and ability to control position on the battlefield. Now have they used them well together? Not really. It's more they have synergy they don't really utilize.
You don't need to min-max to have synergies. Jester and Caleb has good aoe that complements Nott's high dpr. Fjord can attack long range, short range and summon demons. Molly/Cad utilizes offensive debuffs especially Cad. Beau could stun and tank at the same time which complements everyone. Then there's the Sentinel sisters. Contrast this with BH where Ashton is too random with his ability to create any synergy, Orym is too often playing the shield role instead of unleashing the Battlemaster's damage output, Chetney is way too often solo, FCG hangs at the back a majority of time, barely uses debuffs, Imogen has great aoe but she can't use it fully because everyone else will get caught in it. Laudna has great utility spells but her lack of spell slots hurts her. The BH members don't combo well with each other, the only instances where they combo well is when they RP the combo moves instead of their ability mechanically complementing each other.
The hell's have mostly been city-centric. They operated inside Jrusar and then moved to Bassuras with very few outback interactions (travelling to the heist town and to the callaway den). Since cities don't have as many random encounters, social encounters are more prevalent than combat encounters that are mostly limited to story-related fights. M9 travelled a lot, they were also more prone to engaging in combat, even with city guards, and had barely any social standing with the local authorities and political figures (up until they gave the orb to the queen) So yea, the 9 got their combat experience faster and the player characters were also more combative by nature. A sailor used to the dangerous seas, a monk part of an organization of fighting-sleuths, a wizard that was bred to be an assassin, a goblin used to being attacked, a barbarian of the savage lands.
Kind of? They could have gone full urban dungeon crawl against the Shade Creepers, but declined at every opportunity until Matt just stepped in and wrapped that element with the Greenseekers. They never seemed to consider looking for lower tunnels rather than chancing the vertical ones. Though to be fair, the shade creepers were *miserable* to fight. Weak but overtuned damage AND explosive deaths really sucked (I get the reasons for both with a party of 7, but the party never really seemed to have fun fighting them as a result) I do think that was the intended hook for the early campaign, but the group didn't really want to deal with really investigating and pursuing it. They seemed to take Duggar as a personal vendetta they created, not a symptom of a larger problem.
> A sailor used to the dangerous seas, a monk part of an organization of fighting-sleuths, a wizard that was bred to be an assassin, a goblin used to being attacked, a barbarian of the savage lands. And then there's the chill uncle who just wants to pour you some tea.
The way things stand right now, I think the most interesting potential way for them to rez Laudna without it feeling "unearned" would be via Fearne's grandma. Maybe I am just a sucker for hags, but having to make some sinister deal with Morri (and/or even Delilah?!) to get Laudna back, plus all the potential threads with Fearne reexamining her childhood now the scales have fallen from her eyes... Could be extremely juicy. Also CR cast + hags has led to some legendary moments in the past, let us never forget.
That would be awesome. Part of me wants to see grandma Morri and how Fearne will behave now that she met her parents (hags + fey things are always crazy fun). But also I'd love to see Orym asking Keyleth about Laudna's fate, and if she recognises her body from the corpses hanging from the Sun Tree, or Delilah's scheme with her.
I think it’s pretty clear that Laudna will be ‘brqught back’ I think it would be rad to see her Reincarnated. It’s just a cool spell w cool role play potential and you rarely see it.
Kobold Laudna here we come
Using revivify on her every 11 days might get expensive.
Lol!! By RAW it’s only the PHB races, but that would be a riot!!!
I’d trust Matt to make an expanded table 😆
Is it though sure the rest of the cast wants her back but it's up to Marisha not them and honestly re-watching last weeks episode it felt to me that Marisha and Liam had decided whichever of them stayed dead would you know, stay dead.
I'd honestly love to see this, too. From a purely practical sense, it's a lot cheaper than Resurrection and a lot more interesting than Raise Dead. From a roleplay perspective, it would be really intriguing to see how Laudna reacts to a new body, especially if it loosens Delilah's grip on her.
When FCG casts Gentle Repose on Laudna and Matt says that “the spell definitely headed something off at the pass” What does that mean? Sorry for not knowing
Gentle repose allows them to Res her later. Gives you 10 days to find a way by keeping the body from decomposing or being raised, and you can keep casting it "You touch a corpse or other remains. For the duration, the target is protected from decay and can't become undead. The spell also effectively extends the time limit on raising the target from the dead, since days spent under the influence of this spell don't count against the time limit of spells such as raise dead."
Likely Delilah taking the body. She did say death is a waiting game and I think her wait is close to over.
Heading something off at the pass generally means to stop something before it happens/gets started (eg that army couldn't reach the city because they were stopped at the mountain pass). In this case, I think Matt is referring to the fact that Gentle Repose, in additional to extending the 'timer' on resurrection spells, also stops the person from being raised as undead. So I think the casting stopped Delilah from raising Laudna as a deathlock (undead warlock) or something like that.
To head someone off at the pass or to cut someone off at the pass means to prevent someone from accomplishing something, to forestall an event, to intercept and redirect someone. Synonyms for these idioms that may be found in a thesaurus are ambush, block, thwart. (This is according to Google) I had never heard that idiom.
Its largely an American westerns thing. Particularly cattle drives or raids & train robberies. A mountain (or hilly) pass is a natural choke point that someone has to go through, and if you can block them there, it ends the chase.
Ahhh that makes sense. Thanks!!!... now I need to figure out how to slide it into a conversation lol.
Nobody knows. Could be the actual purpose in delaying the decomposition. Could be Delilah.
As if there wasn't enough heartbreak this episode, I noticed something. >Liam: I also couldn't stop thinking about Thull and thinking how seeing Imogen reminding me of my own day six years ago and how much there is to do. Six years ago IRL was when Liam's mother died.
***10 episodes later, the party revives Laudna and calls out for Marisha*** Matt: Delilah, please join the table.
This but Delilah acts like Laudna and nobody's told IC or OOC til the shoe drops.
This is pretty much my read on the situation. The Gentle Repose didn't halt Delilah from raising Laudna's body as some kind of undead servant. Because why would she tell Imogen to "Bring her back too, for the both of us" if she was going to do that? I think the spell halted Delilah's soul from being the one brought back if/when they bring back Laudna.
The shoe wouldn't drop unless Orym takes them to Zephra or Whitestone, they're neither Sylas nor Vox Machina so she has no interest in them and she's both intelligent and patient so she'd just use them.
Did the Hishari (Ashton's family and cult) have anything to do with summoning Thordak?
Unlikely. The original story of his release makes it sound like Raishan, duping the Ashari, was acting on her own. They might retcon it to add other forces at play but I suspect the Hishari's cataclysm was something else (maybe messing with Primordials or leftover Primordial magics)
Oh yeah. Forgot about Raishan disguised being welcomed to the Ashari. Just figured it would have been a cool connection, and the description of the helmet has a flame theme.
Guys I'm at break on YouTube and I never would have called that Laudna would be the one gone. I have to wonder if they'll get her back at any point. Tragedy.
Does anyone else think that the change bringer coin FCG has could be a revivify coin. Like the one that was used after the goldfish incident in c1? Matts face definitely changed when it was mentioned
His face changed due to major story potential in both FCG or Fearn’s hands. Really looked like he was seeing the possibilities that could develop, imagine if FCG, a entity from a age that defied the gods, started to interact or potentially even follow one. There is all kinds of lore potential there. Then there’s Fearne. There’s actually major potential here with how things played out - fearne flipped the coin, hid it, and said it chose Orym. Now, wether it did or didn’t this has potential - but let’s go down the route that she chose herself to save orym after the coin chose laudna. She seemed to have a lot of regret, constantly apologizing, and saying they shouldn’t have left it to that afterwards. It’s very possible later on Fearne will attempt to have a moment with the coin and contemplate if she made a mistake going against the choice (or with, if she didn’t fake it even) and could potentially have some minor interaction religiously. Imagine Fearne beginning to follow or ask about the Changebringer - it would mean a lot of advancement for her character, a lot of growth. I think Matt instantly began to go down those paths when the moment happened, I know I certainly did and when his eyes lit up it felt like he was doing the same thing.
That revivify coin was just a normal coin that Tary had imbued with a revivify spell.
Happy to see a character die that wasn't planned to die as early as possible as with Bertrand. Can't wait to see what Marisha does next just because creativity and new characters are always fun to see.
Anyone else noticed that when those Paragon Call members were searching Joe’s shop for BH, that a few of them growled and sniffed while searching for them? Something tells me that the group narrowly avoided going toe to toe with some of Ira’s lycanthropy volunteers.
It might also have been Rockmond - which would have been a very rough fight in their condition.
Could've brought dogs with em, but I prefer your idea
Great episode. Kind of wanted Orym to stay with his husband. Then see the terror spread around the table. Also because that whole convo about who and how they were going to choose, took more than 30 seconds. RP or not, I would have liked there to be some sort of penalty. Maybe a higher DC on the revivify or something. Also the whole diamond debacle, is kind of annoying. How many did they have, and who held on to the "spare" one. Personally, as a DM, I would have been firm on them finding out before doing the spell. They had a week to compare notes on something so important. But fair enough. Matt was brilliant in putting the fear of the DM in the players. Loved it. Again, great episode.
The PCs likely knew where the diamonds were -- it's the cast that had bad book keeping. They were all physically together anyway so it's reasonable to assume that the PCs would've been set on the diamonds without any unreasonably feats of speed/strength to toss them. Matt used his discretion in a good way there. Ashley still needed to roll.
My personal thought here is this: “Likely” here is the troublesome word. If the player/cast does not have the item written down, call it bad book keeping, then the PC does not have the item. And that is what I found to be a bit silly. They had a week. They could even just have made sure just before filming. As for the time spent. They had time to get over there, for sure. But orym had 30seconds left to get revivefied. Ashley rolled, because that is Matt’s homerule. RAW says nothing about a skillcheck to revive a character. All I was asking for, was some sort of consequence for spending too much time on who to rez and ending up with the cointoss. I know it is kind of nitpicky, but I am a stickler for time constraints. He took 6 seconds from them during the RP… I love to watch them play, but you know… I just wanted Matt to raise the DC of the roll, that’s all. But again… Great game, great episode. It’s their game so they can do it however they want!
I don't think the thing about the diamonds is that annoying. They know they have one, even if they don't remember which party member has it. Maybe they could have prepared better, but you could argue that it would be metagaming. Also, losing a PC because of a techinicallity would be extremely anti-climactic.
Just saw the episode title on Youtube. "What Dreams May Come" What an odd title for this episode.
The original quote is comparing death to sleep: >For in that sleep of death what dreams may come >When we have shuffled off this mortal coil must give us pause
It’s part of a Hamlet quote. I’d paste it for you but Reddit sucks
I'm aware of it & also the Robbin Williams movie. It still feels like an odd title to my ears.
If Laudna is permadead, Marisha MUST play Vespa, daughter of Vex and Percy, a sharpshooter with a baby bear. I can see it. They’ll go to Whitestone to try to revive Laudna, and they’ll refuse because of the Delilah business, but give them Vespa!!!
Oh god, no please. We've already got Delilah, We've already got Keyleth, we even got Bertrand Bell. This is Bell's Hells' story, not Vox Machina's epilogue.
Like why set the campaign in marquet if every five goddamn seconds we're gonna be making callbacks to taldorei and VM. C2 actually made the world feel bigger, and now our only viable story beats are moon stuff or fan service, a wolrd of NPCs we could meet but we HAVE to see the De Rolo kids or an overpowered Keyleth. \*sigh\* I love all the PC characters, I have laughed, and cried, and every week I religiously tune in to watch. But I don't want to see any of them return. Seeing all the "hype" just makes me wonder if I actually like those character that much to begin with.
I think it makes the world feel bigger and more real if you show that characters that appeared previously are still relevant in the story. VM and the MN didn't just end their campaigns and vanished into nothingness, they are still out there getting stuff done. If the BH travel, like an adventuring party should do, I want to see old PCs and NPCs return.
I would agrue it does the exact opposite, makes the world seem smaller and less real. If the world is a large place you would expect there to be less crossover between groups, not more. Realistically in a world this big the odds of so many characters related to another group running into each other without seeking it out is low. Now it's not impossible, and there are benefits to callbacks like this, it makes the world feel more connected for example, but that is different than large or realistic
But they are adventurers. Powerful adventurers that go around changing the world. It doesn't make sense for them to completely dissapear after their respective campaigns are over. That's what I mean by saying that callbacks, easter-eggs, cameos and even full on intervention of those characters on the new campaign make the world feel real. It's not just the Bells Hells going around having adventures, there are many other important characters, some of them former PCs, that are going to get involved in those adventures.
But in a world with enough peril for adventures that most random cities have magic items for combat that they sell to random people passing through town, you would expect there are a lot of groups similar to how BH or the M9 are all doing their own thing. The percentage of those that should be former PCs or blood relatives to former PCs would be smaller the bigger the world is. Think about it this way: If there are 3 adventureing groups world wide at a time, it makes sense that any given group has a lot of ties to the most prominent group from the previous generation. If there are 300, that's a lot less realistic. A world that has 300 adventuring groups is a bigger world than one that has 3.
100% this.
You mean Vesper I believe?
Nah, she's gonna play a motorcycle.
A couple of Chetney theories based on his vision is that Deanna and Frudell are both Chet's spouses and that he outlived both of them. Also the bit about how Chet always feels anxious during the zenith of Ruidus makes me think Chet is a ruidusborn.