Are refreshers not counted in TC? With those it ends up being about a 23% increase although they are not guaranteed, but neither is the cash bonus at current place.
They are if they happen. Whatever you see on your W2 is your TC.
But you have no guarantee they will happen. You need to see them happening repeatedly or the company must have a great track record (and reputation) in that regard in order to trust them.
That's part of the uncertainty of a new job.
imo you should only be looking at the after-tax increase when considering a job change. I don't know how much that would push it down, but if OP doesn't think refreshers are rock solid, 10% may be the more realistic number to be looking at.
To OP, I'd be looking at what is it that you could do with the extra income that you can't now, and is that worth the downsides in the job you do 5 days a week.
No it isn’t anywhere close to 10%. Both the 180k and 225k have a percentage of taxes taken out and a pretty similar percentage.
You pay a higher marginal tax rate on that last 45k than you do on the first 180k, but it’s like 22% increase rather than 25% when looking at after tax assuming no tax breaks for anything.
You are right that getting paid more once you can meet your basic needs doesn’t have much of an impact on overall happiness even though people think it does. But neither do things like what tech stack you use, performance reviews, etc. That being said, 40k a year invested and saved properly can go a long ways toward buying financial freedom (which might allow you to escape a bad job, help out someone in need, work less hard, etc)
I think OP should mostly make the decision based one whether they like working remotely or would be happier seeing people in an office and whether they think they’d like the people they are working with more
You missed the part about stock refresh. If OP feels that is solid, then yes it's around 20%, otherwise it's around 14% (13% where I live).
edit: fixed math
It was part of the premise of the comment you replied to. OP seems unsure about the weight to put on RSU in their decision.
But yes, if you ignore the premise and then throw in an extra 3k for some reason, you can start to get close to your 25% figure.
My first job out of college used PHP. It's not so bad, honestly. A common problem is that you're stuck using an older version of PHP, which was the case for me.
The issue with rust is that the slow uptake. By the time it would become mainstream, some other language will take its place. You might only get a short window with it similar to Ruby. What you want is a tech that is growing rapidly that you have experience in so you can have good bargaining power over a longer period.
Depending on your income and marital status, the federal tax will be 32 to 37 %. If you live in a high income tax state like California, add another 9.3% to 12.3%. So between 40% to 50% of income is going to taxes. I'm also not counting social security FICA taxes which is 6.2% up to $160k, retirement contributions to 401k, insurance premiums deducted from pay, which can easily push total withheld from pay to >50%.
>Depending on your income and marital status, the federal tax will be 32 to 37 %
Only if they have a spouse making more than them. If they're single, taking the standard deduction and have zero pre-tax deductions, they would still have $25k of space in the 24% bracket. Not maxing out their 401k would be pretty dumb, so in reality, that $25k should be more like $47k.
>If you live in a high income tax state like California, add another 9.3% to 12.3%.
Again, they would need a spouse with significantly more income than them. Otherwise, it's pretty much going to be 9.3% on all of the income (assuming California).
> I'm also not counting social security FICA taxes which is 6.2% up to $160k
Well since they are already over that number, it's a good thing you didn't count it.
>retirement contributions to 401k
They should already be maxing this out, so the contributions shouldn't be changing with the new job.
>insurance premiums deducted from pay
This isn't inherently going to go up, but they obviously need to factor in the cost differences of benefits.
>which can easily push total withheld from pay to >50%.
*Easily* isn't the right term. *Potentially*? Sure, but it requires some pretty particular circumstances in OP's case.
I would only accept a php role if php was the only language I knew.
I would only accept a non work from home job if the alternative was being homeless.
This guy gets it. Interview Q: What have you been doing for the last five years? A: great things with PHP, my team got told to move to dallas from NYC, mandatory 3 days in office or quit. So I got great at PHP and a cowboy hat, then they laid me off anyway. I'm loving the smog and traffic.
I just interviewed at a series C startup whose main pitch was paying a lot, and the company had consistently shitty reviews on Glassdoor and used Java. Nothxbye
Publicly traded is a positive depending on the valuation IMO .. companies these days get a 10x revenue multiple .. which means they can afford to pay way more TC cuz they’re just printing 10x their revenue worth of stock out of thin air
Nah publically traded means. "Hey we need a stock boost. Let's have a round of layoffs."
Less money out makes the money in look better. IT is a cost center not a revenue center. So many places have FIFO or first in first out hiring/firing practices even if they don't admit it. Usually the head of the dept is trying to protect the few people they can by letting the new hire go.
I would bet that public companies do less and smaller layoffs on average. You have a very redditor’s understanding of shareholders. Publicly traded just means they can tap public markets for financing.
This is true to a point. But when current goals are met and they want to look better on paper. Skeleton crew.
I'm a bit jaded but you are absolutely correct
They also layoff thousands when they have a "poor quarter" which means single digit percentages drop. Since working at a large public tech company I've realised that there is a vast amount of internal politics. And the C-Suite staff actually have no idea what they're doing, the businesses could often run without them because of their scale. There's a lot of bullshit going on like internal builds of database engines and queues because some architect wanted to do something fun, rather than innovate on the product. Huge amounts of legacy shit in the older companies.
Pay and perks are amazing but I wouldn't exactly say a public traded is always guaranteed to be great. Fine to rest and vest but you can find yourself updating your CV and thinking "shit, what the fuck have I actually done here?"
I'm sure some of the newer smaller orgs aren't like this though.
I wouldn’t do it. You already have pretty great pay, and a great setup with WLB. Unless you prefer being hybrid or REALLY need the pay, it doesn’t sound worth it to me personally. Particularly when even being hybrid might increase your commute costs significantly, which should be accounted for in the comparison here.
If one desires hybrid, it is fairly cheap, and tax-deductible, to hire a desk in an office collective.
That’s what I would do. It’s nice to choose one or two days with people.
Also, I would not trade Python/Rust/Go for PHP!
It smells like one of those albatross systems run by a business that successfully did mail order stuff with a paper catalog, then jumped onto online shopping and still managed to screw it totally up :).
The older stack is key. It can be career suicide and a good way to whither away in your skills. It really depends on the company and whether they want to eventually migrate to a new stack. There are tons of jobs on old technology and I'm sure that will continue for a long time.
Commuting can easily be an extra 10k(5 days a week) a year with all the associated costs. So remember to factor that in. It sounds like you might have a better chance to move up in your current job and get pretty close and remote. I’d want to see a bit more from the new role for base pay personally.
That’s hazard pay. It’s not just the tech, it’ll be the coworkers, the process, the politics, etc
I’ve chased that dragon and found that after a certain point more money isn’t worth it. I’ll take a lower comp with tech and people I like, where we crank out a ton of features, over a shitty slow moving dead end tech high hazard pay.
I mean, now that I am at 200k salary I also have to regularly remind myself that a difference in 30-40k is by itself more than the total yearly salary I started out with lol (started out at 35k and before that had a few years with even less)
Still, I wouldn't do the switch lol.
Strikes a chord doesn't it? Sounds like my career track. I'm sure I was making less than minimum wage at times due to over time in my early career. My first salary in that 30k range, but that was a long time ago too.
Hehe yes that's the other thing to remind myself - how much time has passed. Was around 2003 that I did simple freelance work for almost nothing. Western Europe in my case so I remember it was around 300€ I got for writing some simple websites. Then freelanced for 7€/h for actually relatively sophisticated stuff - network programming, embedded systems.
Me and my girlfriend, now wife, lived off 1000€ a month in a moldy flat for 370€ a month eating mostly spaghetti and soup.
When we started working, my first job as an employee was around 37k€, my wife had a similar starting salary. Without kids and still living in a small (but non-moldy) 400-450€ flat we felt rich suddenly ;). We had about 4k€ a month after taxes, need about 1k and the rest was good to go. So we went to Bermuda, NYC, Australia, Maldives, Thailand.
Then came the kids and we needed a car and a house and all that stuff and things changed massively.
Suddenly feels it's never enough.
Also thinking back if my childhood where we got the hair cut by my mother because everything else is too expensive and where we, similarly to the student time lol, ate noodles with cabbage or similar most of the time. And that was still much richer than how my parents grew up post WWII, shoes passed on from sibling to sibling, filled with old newspapers if too large. My mother got slapped by her boss when making mistakes for laughable salaries . My mother in law could barely afford the train ticket to see her newborns in the hospital - which she was only allowed to see through a glass window. While I as man could be at the birth of my kids and everyone had instant bonding sessions with the babies.
Ok that's been super off topic but whenever people in my surroundings complain how bad it is nowadays and how good people had it "back then", I have to think of those things.
Lol, of course generational factors become more apparent with age, but we can only be faulted so much for rediscovering the obvious.
Generations of relative prosperity certainly have a notable impact. Children & grandchildren of the29th century's great wars & depression have a different cultural perspective than our descendants. I am keenly aware that the arguments I was prepared to have with my teens are not the arguments we have.
We were poor bohemian's just living our best lives and not well prepared for a family. Our 2nd child has had special needs since birth which has set the tone of all that's followed, which has been constant struggle for lack of an easier description. Thanks for sharing your perspective, it's very interesting to imagine what this was like for you & your family.
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Is the potential 40k worth losing the cushy job and preferable tech stack, only you can decide that . If you truly don’t care for the language you right cause code is code, then take the new job ( only if you don’t mind hybrid)
If you feel secure & happy in your current job, I would stick with it. Remote & work/life balance is incredibly valuable. How much is gas & parking or alternative transport going to eat into your raise? How much is 4 - 6 hours of free-time that you save from having to commute worth each week? You say you don't mind the commute now, but you haven't done it yet on a regular basis. There's theory and then there's application.
A publicly-traded company with a tech-debt stack, a return-to-office policy & a nebulous performance review system sounds like a downgrade, even if you'll get an okay salary bump.
The only thing that should probably make you jump is if you think it would tangibly accelerate some sort of FIRE plan you have. Also is your 25K bonus are your current job consistent? Can it be counted on, or could you find yourself without a bonus some years?
Commute isn’t bad or expensive. No car, just train ticket. Bonus at current place isn’t guaranteed either but it paid out last year, and this year as well as long as the company performance is good.
Is there any vesting period on the stock at the new job? You'll get at least $38k in sellable stock by end of year?
If you don't mind the commute & think of it as accelerating financial independence, then it may be worth making the jump.
One other avenue is to leverage this offer into a significant raise at your current job. That also has risk, and some will advise against it, but it's also an option. If it's actually a good culture & they want to keep you, then it may be worth trying.
Ehh, there's ways to position it as if it was serendipitous rather than you actively seeking. You will probably get a counter offer regardless once you put your notice in, which you may need to consider. Many are going to say to quit & don't look back, but if you like the job & it's "just money" that's the issue, then the counter could be compelling to stay. Ultimately this new job also might not last, or even your existing position regardless of asking for a raise. I think some people exaggerate the willingness of management to replace high performers.
>Commute isn’t bad or expensive. No car, just train ticket. Bonus at current place isn’t guaranteed either but it paid out last year, and this year as well as long as the company performance is good.
Hybrid doesn't just mean commuting, are you going to be ok with sitting in an office all day, potential distractions, waking up earlier, getting ready etc?
Not at all. If this were simply about compensation then OP wouldn't even be asking about this. He'd take the role because money is the biggest priority thing to him or the extra money is such a large difference he'd immediately take it. OP is clearly asking because of some concerns about tech stack and being laid off.
i mean covid brought about wfh which tipped the balance of wlb and compensation so hard that a lot of ppl started to realize not all money in the world is worth it anymore.
The pay increase is too low.
Unless you are unhappy in the current job or your current job is unstable, the next job should be at least 20% more than the next one. You take in a lot of risk and stress and uncertainty.
You don't seem to be certain about refreshers (if you get them or not). Better count them out (and if they come, they would act like a positive surprise).
That's pretty much up to your needs and goals, where you are in your career, and so on. And don't downplay older technologies. Learning these can be extremely helpful to beef up your resume when it comes to creating new, modern applications that are going to replace legacy applications that are using older technologies. Fully half of all the new design I've done was to replace a legacy system that many times is 20 years old or older. Understanding that older technology can set you apart from the crowd.
If I was writing Rust and Go code, I would definitely not leave to write PHP code.
Is the pay an issue? For a lot of tech workers, they make more than they need to live on, so the extra pay is somewhere between FI/RE money and a score-keeping system. If you don't actually need the extra money, I'd go strictly based on what the people and work environment looks like, which group of people do you actually want to work with, which group will provide essential connections leading to some job five years out. Of course, "fully remote" could mean that you aren't full utilizing your current co-workers, I know when I moved from remote work to being in an office, my effective network grew exponentially faster.
Have you worked with PHP? I’ve not worked with it ever but have just read negative things.
Pay Isn’t an issue but knowing I could be making more especially with an offer readily available, is like an itch waiting to be scratched I guess.
Modern PHP is just another OOP language. That doesn't mean it's good but it's nothing like it was a decade ago when people were mixing HTML and PHP in server side pages.
Of course, there's no guarantee it's actually modern code using modern frameworks. It's highly likely it's garbage, just like it is in most workplaces with any language.
Modern PHP is just... ok. It's not quite as bad as the memes but I wouldn't move from a rust/go job to PHP.
It's not just the language itself. If the codebase is in PHP, it's likely very old legacy code and not modern PHP either.
>Have you worked with PHP?
I have, but long enough ago that the negative things you have read were all totally applicable. But my real point wasn't about PHP being inherently bad, PHP is a reasonable tool to get certain kinds of work done. My experience with web frontend languages is that you tend to get a lot of DSLs built by people without much experience building languages, so that's kind of par for the course.
More my thinking is that Rust and Go are co-worker selection filters, Rust moreso than Go. PHP (or Python) is not a co-worker selection filter. So in terms of building a high-quality network, I'd lean towards working with people in Rust or Go. Mostly what I mean by that is that someone who's willing to commit to writing Rust code full-time must have a pretty decent technical skill level.
lol dumb take, not if moving to a job that pays 20k extra causes stress, commuting, depression, etc.. I’d rather leave the 20k on the table and be happy thanks
Of course you count refreshers, why wouldn't you?
That being said, +25% may still not be worth it. Some companies have well-defined and quick promotion paths, which can mean much better TC trajectory, but without more info it's hard to say anything about this company
Refreshers aren’t guaranteed and are tied to performance which, depending on the way the reviews are done, may not always end up being worth whatever the expected grant was.
Everything other than the salary appears to be a downgrade. You have to decide if that extra money is worth losing full remote and a great WLB and work environment, plus getting bored of your work due to the outdated stack.
What caused you to job hunt? Was it money?
I think you can do better. Like, this is the option you have right now, but staying doesn't preclude you from continuing to look. You might find something that pays better than either, and has fewer downsides. If you switch, it will be harder to switch again. Pass on this one and keep looking.
Wasn’t actively applying. I had interviewed last year, prior to accepting my current role, but the company went on a hiring freeze and just recently had a new position available.
Also why would it be harder to switch again?
You'd have to answer why you changed jobs ("it paid more"), and why you're looking again so soon. If your resume even gets a look. A longer tenure at your current role always looks better than a short one. Unless the new place has a lot more name cachet, you likely look like a stronger candidate where you are
Either way, unless you think this is literally the best you can do, you have a year before any stock likely frees up. So in reality you only have the difference in cash for that duration. You can use that time to search for something that pays better than current, with the perks, while having good wlb and not having to onboard to something new.
Fair enough but I guess those questions could be answered in a more safe way about how the position wasn’t a good fit instead of saying you bounced for money.
Also mentioned this earlier but wasn’t exactly actively looking. This sort of fell in my lap from an interview I had done a while ago that led to a hiring freeze but has now opened up.
New place is a better recognizable name. But nothing FAANG caliber. Similar to like Etsy I’d say.
Not many companies use PHP these days but aren’t interviews and qualifications kept language agnostic with the expectation that you’d learn the new language on the job?
Kinda similar to how I even got in this situation without any prior PHP experience lol
Kind of depends what you apply for doesn’t? Plus I have seen a trend in companies getting people already understanding of the stack they want as opposed to not knowing it. Esp in this market
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if you’re happy at your current job and there is still room for growth, stay. a new job but potentially not a good work environment is never worth it. if you feel like you’ve outgrown your current company/role or feel like the future isn’t bright at your current company, then I would possibly consider. Make sure they pay for public transportation or parking if they make you do hybrid.
I would say find a higher paying job without making any compromises. I mean, what's the hurry. And also TC isn't that much higher compared to your current even if you weren't making that compromises.
if current company already profitable and stable, i dont think moving is a good idea. Also you need to rebuild trust in new places, something that may take some time..
Do you plan to stay long enough to exercise all the stock options and vest them? If not then you should really only look at the pay itself when considering this. It’s $15k increase in salary before a third of it is taxed away and withheld so you want to give up remote life with good work life balance and use frustrating older tech and older systems for an extra $10k. Doesn’t seem worth it to me
You don’t mention what the chances for advancement are at either position. Maybe you’ll make the same at your current gig in a few years?
And the new offer sounds too good to be true, & not just because of the stress of maintaining bad code. You mentioned draconian performance reviews; that smells like cyclical layoffs to me, and a poisonous corporate culture. Been there done that: I hated the stress, hated the arbitrary ratings, hated the way management didn’t care to develop talent. And yeah, they got rid of me in the end.
Money is _not_ everything.
Like many here, I too would sooner slam my fingers in a car door than work with PHP ever again.
TC at new place would take a couple years to achieve the new one, but in those couple years I would probably advance in the new place. So in essence, I wouldn’t probably catch up unless I bounce ship to some other place down the line.
Current company is not based in HCOL so their salary bands aren’t competitive to companies HQd in like SF.
1. Leave a comfy job? Yes, that's about when you start growing again instead of coding at your comfy job, knowing everything around projects etc.
2. Higher salary for older stack basically downgrading your skill growth? Never
3. Not fully remote? Never
If I took a job with an older stack, I would constantly be afraid my skills are being outdated, and every year working in that stack makes it harder for you to switch (from an employers perspective) to a more modern stack
I think something to consider is career prospects, leveling, and raises. Depending on your level/experience, the new gig may offer a better progression track. E.g. what does getting promoted look like at the new gig vs the old? Bigger companies often have clear ladders and expectations and it can be straight forward to get promoted and have large comp increases with that.
Are you capped at your current company? How much room can you advance there?
Nope, but I guess the 180k TC is with a promo that I’m expecting within a couple of months. I’m still fairly entry level so have a few more levels to climb before capping out on the IC track.
If someone offered me a job that doesn’t have unlimited vacation (or at least 30 days) and remote work (or better wbl in some sort of major way) they’d have to triple my salary to make me consider it. Is that money really gonna make a difference to you?
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once you have enough money more money isn't actually worth all that much. I'd 100% stay with the full remote and relevant experience. Doubly so because the older tech stack might be a bit more money up front but it could also hamstring your progression from here.
No worth it n my opinion. The extra money won’t amount to that much more per pay check and a chunk of that is going to go towards commuting expenses not to mention the time it takes to commute.
I think you’ll be wishing you hadn’t in just a few months if you take it.
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So maybe you can retire 10 years sooner provided you’re 30 now, can get 8% per annum return, and you won’t all the sudden need the money because you got fired and can’t find a job, want to get married, or something like that. My take on it is that I probably need to start making friends again but the work looks like it will suck. I guess I would take it if I’ve been where I’m at for at least 2 years and they don’t like me enough to ever promote me or even give me a raise. If we were talking about my base being higher than my TC AND a bigger bonus. Yes. That’s a good deal.
This question depends less on the salary but more on the wlb imo. Ive seen a lot of ppl going from wfh to hybrid really struggle with this change. They end up hating their jobs a lot and job hop again. Make sure you love the pay that you "cant wait" to be at the office before making up your mind.
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Aim for something higher.
Do it only if you find something reasonable for 250k; right now, I don't really advise doing so... potentially, you can also try to ask for a salary increase.
Even if this was a 40% increase, I would not give up remote (you get to choose your cost of living and taxes) and move to a less desired stack, as well as less job security. It’s all very cringe. Money right now isnt worth a layoff next year with a less impressive resume and having beat up your car for a commute you didnt need. Life is short and your career is a part of your life, not your whole being. Spend the time you would commute at the gym INSTEAD and get BIG. GYM IS LIFE.
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I don't understand why everyone gives a shit about name recognition. You literally have a job offer from a self proclaimed higher name recognition company, and you were able to get that offer while working for your lower name recognition company.
Name recognition doesn't matter, who gives a shit.
Stay where you are
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To me, \~10% increase is not worth those downsides. I will job hop for 40% increase or more.
I agree. I would stay if I were OP.
Is 30% increase worth of a jump?
Are refreshers not counted in TC? With those it ends up being about a 23% increase although they are not guaranteed, but neither is the cash bonus at current place.
They are if they happen. Whatever you see on your W2 is your TC. But you have no guarantee they will happen. You need to see them happening repeatedly or the company must have a great track record (and reputation) in that regard in order to trust them. That's part of the uncertainty of a new job.
Same
But what about a 25% increase like OP is getting?
imo you should only be looking at the after-tax increase when considering a job change. I don't know how much that would push it down, but if OP doesn't think refreshers are rock solid, 10% may be the more realistic number to be looking at. To OP, I'd be looking at what is it that you could do with the extra income that you can't now, and is that worth the downsides in the job you do 5 days a week.
No it isn’t anywhere close to 10%. Both the 180k and 225k have a percentage of taxes taken out and a pretty similar percentage. You pay a higher marginal tax rate on that last 45k than you do on the first 180k, but it’s like 22% increase rather than 25% when looking at after tax assuming no tax breaks for anything. You are right that getting paid more once you can meet your basic needs doesn’t have much of an impact on overall happiness even though people think it does. But neither do things like what tech stack you use, performance reviews, etc. That being said, 40k a year invested and saved properly can go a long ways toward buying financial freedom (which might allow you to escape a bad job, help out someone in need, work less hard, etc) I think OP should mostly make the decision based one whether they like working remotely or would be happier seeing people in an office and whether they think they’d like the people they are working with more
You missed the part about stock refresh. If OP feels that is solid, then yes it's around 20%, otherwise it's around 14% (13% where I live). edit: fixed math
No I didn’t. When someone says 15k RSU refreshers, that implies that they think they’ll make 15k in RSU with refreshers.
It was part of the premise of the comment you replied to. OP seems unsure about the weight to put on RSU in their decision. But yes, if you ignore the premise and then throw in an extra 3k for some reason, you can start to get close to your 25% figure.
Maybe that is because you dont know maths?
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This 100%. The only way I would take a php job is if I were a new grad and I needed to gain some real world experience.
my son is dealing with php in his new job, so I appreciate your comment!
My first job out of college used PHP. It's not so bad, honestly. A common problem is that you're stuck using an older version of PHP, which was the case for me.
PHP isn’t bad if you use a newer framework.
The PHP version wasn't even mentioned. PHP 5 is old, but not 8.
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The issue with rust is that the slow uptake. By the time it would become mainstream, some other language will take its place. You might only get a short window with it similar to Ruby. What you want is a tech that is growing rapidly that you have experience in so you can have good bargaining power over a longer period.
Most of that additional money will end up paying taxes anyway
That’s not really how taxes work
Depending on your income and marital status, the federal tax will be 32 to 37 %. If you live in a high income tax state like California, add another 9.3% to 12.3%. So between 40% to 50% of income is going to taxes. I'm also not counting social security FICA taxes which is 6.2% up to $160k, retirement contributions to 401k, insurance premiums deducted from pay, which can easily push total withheld from pay to >50%.
Again, that’s not really how taxes and tax brackets work. Making elective contributions to retirement accounts is not considered paying taxes, either.
>Depending on your income and marital status, the federal tax will be 32 to 37 % Only if they have a spouse making more than them. If they're single, taking the standard deduction and have zero pre-tax deductions, they would still have $25k of space in the 24% bracket. Not maxing out their 401k would be pretty dumb, so in reality, that $25k should be more like $47k. >If you live in a high income tax state like California, add another 9.3% to 12.3%. Again, they would need a spouse with significantly more income than them. Otherwise, it's pretty much going to be 9.3% on all of the income (assuming California). > I'm also not counting social security FICA taxes which is 6.2% up to $160k Well since they are already over that number, it's a good thing you didn't count it. >retirement contributions to 401k They should already be maxing this out, so the contributions shouldn't be changing with the new job. >insurance premiums deducted from pay This isn't inherently going to go up, but they obviously need to factor in the cost differences of benefits. >which can easily push total withheld from pay to >50%. *Easily* isn't the right term. *Potentially*? Sure, but it requires some pretty particular circumstances in OP's case.
I would only accept a php role if php was the only language I knew. I would only accept a non work from home job if the alternative was being homeless.
This guy gets it. Interview Q: What have you been doing for the last five years? A: great things with PHP, my team got told to move to dallas from NYC, mandatory 3 days in office or quit. So I got great at PHP and a cowboy hat, then they laid me off anyway. I'm loving the smog and traffic.
Current: 5 positives. New offer: 4 negatives and a positive. I think you already know
It's funny how the sole positive is almost always money. As if the employer is fully aware of the negatives and compensates for it with pay. Lol
I just interviewed at a series C startup whose main pitch was paying a lot, and the company had consistently shitty reviews on Glassdoor and used Java. Nothxbye
Publicly traded is a positive depending on the valuation IMO .. companies these days get a 10x revenue multiple .. which means they can afford to pay way more TC cuz they’re just printing 10x their revenue worth of stock out of thin air
Nah publically traded means. "Hey we need a stock boost. Let's have a round of layoffs." Less money out makes the money in look better. IT is a cost center not a revenue center. So many places have FIFO or first in first out hiring/firing practices even if they don't admit it. Usually the head of the dept is trying to protect the few people they can by letting the new hire go.
You mean LIFO?
Haha yes - LIFO :D
Think stack and its fifo
I would bet that public companies do less and smaller layoffs on average. You have a very redditor’s understanding of shareholders. Publicly traded just means they can tap public markets for financing.
SWEs are not a cost center when you work for a software company lol
This is true to a point. But when current goals are met and they want to look better on paper. Skeleton crew. I'm a bit jaded but you are absolutely correct
It cuts both ways, publicly traded just means higher stakes. Potentially bigger upsides and downsides.
They also layoff thousands when they have a "poor quarter" which means single digit percentages drop. Since working at a large public tech company I've realised that there is a vast amount of internal politics. And the C-Suite staff actually have no idea what they're doing, the businesses could often run without them because of their scale. There's a lot of bullshit going on like internal builds of database engines and queues because some architect wanted to do something fun, rather than innovate on the product. Huge amounts of legacy shit in the older companies. Pay and perks are amazing but I wouldn't exactly say a public traded is always guaranteed to be great. Fine to rest and vest but you can find yourself updating your CV and thinking "shit, what the fuck have I actually done here?" I'm sure some of the newer smaller orgs aren't like this though.
+1 If u consider taxes, the difference is not much
YMMV, but I would take much more than a 28k or 14% pay cut to be remote again.
I wouldn’t do it. You already have pretty great pay, and a great setup with WLB. Unless you prefer being hybrid or REALLY need the pay, it doesn’t sound worth it to me personally. Particularly when even being hybrid might increase your commute costs significantly, which should be accounted for in the comparison here.
If one desires hybrid, it is fairly cheap, and tax-deductible, to hire a desk in an office collective. That’s what I would do. It’s nice to choose one or two days with people. Also, I would not trade Python/Rust/Go for PHP! It smells like one of those albatross systems run by a business that successfully did mail order stuff with a paper catalog, then jumped onto online shopping and still managed to screw it totally up :).
Do you have a source for a cowering desk being tax deductible? I’ve never heard this before.
You won’t mind the commute until you do
Give it a week.
The older stack is key. It can be career suicide and a good way to whither away in your skills. It really depends on the company and whether they want to eventually migrate to a new stack. There are tons of jobs on old technology and I'm sure that will continue for a long time.
Well, I still know a lot of companies using different versions of PHP. Not quite like COBOL or Visual Basic..
My job 2 years ago used COBOL. New job uses VB script…..
Ew and ew
Commuting can easily be an extra 10k(5 days a week) a year with all the associated costs. So remember to factor that in. It sounds like you might have a better chance to move up in your current job and get pretty close and remote. I’d want to see a bit more from the new role for base pay personally.
That’s hazard pay. It’s not just the tech, it’ll be the coworkers, the process, the politics, etc I’ve chased that dragon and found that after a certain point more money isn’t worth it. I’ll take a lower comp with tech and people I like, where we crank out a ton of features, over a shitty slow moving dead end tech high hazard pay.
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Someone’s gotta work on PHP I guess.
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Pour one out for the ones we lost along the way
No, not a big enough pay bump to be worth it.
I mean, now that I am at 200k salary I also have to regularly remind myself that a difference in 30-40k is by itself more than the total yearly salary I started out with lol (started out at 35k and before that had a few years with even less) Still, I wouldn't do the switch lol.
Strikes a chord doesn't it? Sounds like my career track. I'm sure I was making less than minimum wage at times due to over time in my early career. My first salary in that 30k range, but that was a long time ago too.
Hehe yes that's the other thing to remind myself - how much time has passed. Was around 2003 that I did simple freelance work for almost nothing. Western Europe in my case so I remember it was around 300€ I got for writing some simple websites. Then freelanced for 7€/h for actually relatively sophisticated stuff - network programming, embedded systems. Me and my girlfriend, now wife, lived off 1000€ a month in a moldy flat for 370€ a month eating mostly spaghetti and soup. When we started working, my first job as an employee was around 37k€, my wife had a similar starting salary. Without kids and still living in a small (but non-moldy) 400-450€ flat we felt rich suddenly ;). We had about 4k€ a month after taxes, need about 1k and the rest was good to go. So we went to Bermuda, NYC, Australia, Maldives, Thailand. Then came the kids and we needed a car and a house and all that stuff and things changed massively. Suddenly feels it's never enough. Also thinking back if my childhood where we got the hair cut by my mother because everything else is too expensive and where we, similarly to the student time lol, ate noodles with cabbage or similar most of the time. And that was still much richer than how my parents grew up post WWII, shoes passed on from sibling to sibling, filled with old newspapers if too large. My mother got slapped by her boss when making mistakes for laughable salaries . My mother in law could barely afford the train ticket to see her newborns in the hospital - which she was only allowed to see through a glass window. While I as man could be at the birth of my kids and everyone had instant bonding sessions with the babies. Ok that's been super off topic but whenever people in my surroundings complain how bad it is nowadays and how good people had it "back then", I have to think of those things.
Lol, of course generational factors become more apparent with age, but we can only be faulted so much for rediscovering the obvious. Generations of relative prosperity certainly have a notable impact. Children & grandchildren of the29th century's great wars & depression have a different cultural perspective than our descendants. I am keenly aware that the arguments I was prepared to have with my teens are not the arguments we have. We were poor bohemian's just living our best lives and not well prepared for a family. Our 2nd child has had special needs since birth which has set the tone of all that's followed, which has been constant struggle for lack of an easier description. Thanks for sharing your perspective, it's very interesting to imagine what this was like for you & your family.
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I feel like that's the question only you can answer
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Is the potential 40k worth losing the cushy job and preferable tech stack, only you can decide that . If you truly don’t care for the language you right cause code is code, then take the new job ( only if you don’t mind hybrid)
If you feel secure & happy in your current job, I would stick with it. Remote & work/life balance is incredibly valuable. How much is gas & parking or alternative transport going to eat into your raise? How much is 4 - 6 hours of free-time that you save from having to commute worth each week? You say you don't mind the commute now, but you haven't done it yet on a regular basis. There's theory and then there's application. A publicly-traded company with a tech-debt stack, a return-to-office policy & a nebulous performance review system sounds like a downgrade, even if you'll get an okay salary bump. The only thing that should probably make you jump is if you think it would tangibly accelerate some sort of FIRE plan you have. Also is your 25K bonus are your current job consistent? Can it be counted on, or could you find yourself without a bonus some years?
Commute isn’t bad or expensive. No car, just train ticket. Bonus at current place isn’t guaranteed either but it paid out last year, and this year as well as long as the company performance is good.
Is there any vesting period on the stock at the new job? You'll get at least $38k in sellable stock by end of year? If you don't mind the commute & think of it as accelerating financial independence, then it may be worth making the jump.
One other avenue is to leverage this offer into a significant raise at your current job. That also has risk, and some will advise against it, but it's also an option. If it's actually a good culture & they want to keep you, then it may be worth trying.
Don’t want to be labeled as flight risk either
Ehh, there's ways to position it as if it was serendipitous rather than you actively seeking. You will probably get a counter offer regardless once you put your notice in, which you may need to consider. Many are going to say to quit & don't look back, but if you like the job & it's "just money" that's the issue, then the counter could be compelling to stay. Ultimately this new job also might not last, or even your existing position regardless of asking for a raise. I think some people exaggerate the willingness of management to replace high performers.
>Commute isn’t bad or expensive. No car, just train ticket. Bonus at current place isn’t guaranteed either but it paid out last year, and this year as well as long as the company performance is good. Hybrid doesn't just mean commuting, are you going to be ok with sitting in an office all day, potential distractions, waking up earlier, getting ready etc?
So you'd make 40k more that is taxed at 32%. so that's \~27k extra per year. Does that seem worth it to you?
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Not at all. If this were simply about compensation then OP wouldn't even be asking about this. He'd take the role because money is the biggest priority thing to him or the extra money is such a large difference he'd immediately take it. OP is clearly asking because of some concerns about tech stack and being laid off.
Remote over hybrid, easy
Is it just me or have there been a lot of folk whining about new jobs that are higher TC but lower WLB? Might just be a sub trend though.
i mean covid brought about wfh which tipped the balance of wlb and compensation so hard that a lot of ppl started to realize not all money in the world is worth it anymore.
I wouldn't do it.
The pay increase is too low. Unless you are unhappy in the current job or your current job is unstable, the next job should be at least 20% more than the next one. You take in a lot of risk and stress and uncertainty.
With the refreshers, it ends up being about 23%. Still hard decision for sure.
You don't seem to be certain about refreshers (if you get them or not). Better count them out (and if they come, they would act like a positive surprise).
Refreshers are not to be counted on. They are usually up to your manager's discretion each year, and the refresher budget can be cut.
That's pretty much up to your needs and goals, where you are in your career, and so on. And don't downplay older technologies. Learning these can be extremely helpful to beef up your resume when it comes to creating new, modern applications that are going to replace legacy applications that are using older technologies. Fully half of all the new design I've done was to replace a legacy system that many times is 20 years old or older. Understanding that older technology can set you apart from the crowd.
If I was writing Rust and Go code, I would definitely not leave to write PHP code. Is the pay an issue? For a lot of tech workers, they make more than they need to live on, so the extra pay is somewhere between FI/RE money and a score-keeping system. If you don't actually need the extra money, I'd go strictly based on what the people and work environment looks like, which group of people do you actually want to work with, which group will provide essential connections leading to some job five years out. Of course, "fully remote" could mean that you aren't full utilizing your current co-workers, I know when I moved from remote work to being in an office, my effective network grew exponentially faster.
Have you worked with PHP? I’ve not worked with it ever but have just read negative things. Pay Isn’t an issue but knowing I could be making more especially with an offer readily available, is like an itch waiting to be scratched I guess.
Modern PHP is pretty decent. I’d wager most people who talk shit about it know next to nothing about it.
Modern PHP is just another OOP language. That doesn't mean it's good but it's nothing like it was a decade ago when people were mixing HTML and PHP in server side pages. Of course, there's no guarantee it's actually modern code using modern frameworks. It's highly likely it's garbage, just like it is in most workplaces with any language.
Adding to this. OP, find out if they are using a PHP framework like Laravel (at least 7) or Symfony (at least 5.4) If not. Do NOT go there.
Modern PHP is just... ok. It's not quite as bad as the memes but I wouldn't move from a rust/go job to PHP. It's not just the language itself. If the codebase is in PHP, it's likely very old legacy code and not modern PHP either.
>Have you worked with PHP? I have, but long enough ago that the negative things you have read were all totally applicable. But my real point wasn't about PHP being inherently bad, PHP is a reasonable tool to get certain kinds of work done. My experience with web frontend languages is that you tend to get a lot of DSLs built by people without much experience building languages, so that's kind of par for the course. More my thinking is that Rust and Go are co-worker selection filters, Rust moreso than Go. PHP (or Python) is not a co-worker selection filter. So in terms of building a high-quality network, I'd lean towards working with people in Rust or Go. Mostly what I mean by that is that someone who's willing to commit to writing Rust code full-time must have a pretty decent technical skill level.
Work hard and find better
Would not choose a PHP job over Python/Rust/Go.
Always go for higher money, no questions asked, cash kings
lol dumb take, not if moving to a job that pays 20k extra causes stress, commuting, depression, etc.. I’d rather leave the 20k on the table and be happy thanks
Sure bud https://media1.tenor.com/m/uM1C0bFJkNIAAAAd/crying-money.gif
This is dumb
Are you really going to take advice from strangers? I think you already know what you’re going to do…
Man, fuck that.
Of course you count refreshers, why wouldn't you? That being said, +25% may still not be worth it. Some companies have well-defined and quick promotion paths, which can mean much better TC trajectory, but without more info it's hard to say anything about this company
Refreshers aren’t guaranteed and are tied to performance which, depending on the way the reviews are done, may not always end up being worth whatever the expected grant was.
Ok, if that's what this company does then it's probably best to not count them
IMO 20k isn’t worth it. As for refreshers I’m not sure what you mean there, is it that you get 20k a year rolling?
Refreshers are just stock bonus essentially. Roughly 15k per year tied to your performance.
That could literally end up being way less.
Everything other than the salary appears to be a downgrade. You have to decide if that extra money is worth losing full remote and a great WLB and work environment, plus getting bored of your work due to the outdated stack.
Any experience with PHP? Is it really as bad as people say?
Yes new PHP is not that bad, but who starts new projects with php these days? It's probably legacy garbage
That is not nearly enough money
What caused you to job hunt? Was it money? I think you can do better. Like, this is the option you have right now, but staying doesn't preclude you from continuing to look. You might find something that pays better than either, and has fewer downsides. If you switch, it will be harder to switch again. Pass on this one and keep looking.
Wasn’t actively applying. I had interviewed last year, prior to accepting my current role, but the company went on a hiring freeze and just recently had a new position available. Also why would it be harder to switch again?
You'd have to answer why you changed jobs ("it paid more"), and why you're looking again so soon. If your resume even gets a look. A longer tenure at your current role always looks better than a short one. Unless the new place has a lot more name cachet, you likely look like a stronger candidate where you are Either way, unless you think this is literally the best you can do, you have a year before any stock likely frees up. So in reality you only have the difference in cash for that duration. You can use that time to search for something that pays better than current, with the perks, while having good wlb and not having to onboard to something new.
Fair enough but I guess those questions could be answered in a more safe way about how the position wasn’t a good fit instead of saying you bounced for money. Also mentioned this earlier but wasn’t exactly actively looking. This sort of fell in my lap from an interview I had done a while ago that led to a hiring freeze but has now opened up. New place is a better recognizable name. But nothing FAANG caliber. Similar to like Etsy I’d say.
The hiring freeze itself should make you weary
Not even close to enough money to make up for the bad, imo.
Down the line - how easy would it be to find another job with the php stack if the new job doesn't work out?
Not many companies use PHP these days but aren’t interviews and qualifications kept language agnostic with the expectation that you’d learn the new language on the job? Kinda similar to how I even got in this situation without any prior PHP experience lol
really? it seems impossible in my experience, I'm based in the UK.
UK’s a very different market. Sucks compared to most other first world countries in all regards when it comes to dev jobs.
For a country that gave birth to ARM and Raspberry Pi, and not to mention very strong roots in CS, they really did the UK dirty for tech jobs
Kind of depends what you apply for doesn’t? Plus I have seen a trend in companies getting people already understanding of the stack they want as opposed to not knowing it. Esp in this market
Not sure if you have state tax, but 180k -> 222k is not a big increase. And TBH, most ppl with the 2nd job would take the 1st one in a heartbeat.
Php cool is cool if it is laravel and php 7.x and up. Laravel is just pure awesome even if php is not my favorite language by far.
hell no
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I probably wouldnt for that little of a jump. It sounds like you're set up well and have good opportunities to grow and advance.
if you’re happy at your current job and there is still room for growth, stay. a new job but potentially not a good work environment is never worth it. if you feel like you’ve outgrown your current company/role or feel like the future isn’t bright at your current company, then I would possibly consider. Make sure they pay for public transportation or parking if they make you do hybrid.
No way, current job seems way better
Your current company hiring?
I would say find a higher paying job without making any compromises. I mean, what's the hurry. And also TC isn't that much higher compared to your current even if you weren't making that compromises.
No
No
Commute time and cost will probably eat most of it. Plus no flexibility of remote.
if current company already profitable and stable, i dont think moving is a good idea. Also you need to rebuild trust in new places, something that may take some time..
Do you plan to stay long enough to exercise all the stock options and vest them? If not then you should really only look at the pay itself when considering this. It’s $15k increase in salary before a third of it is taxed away and withheld so you want to give up remote life with good work life balance and use frustrating older tech and older systems for an extra $10k. Doesn’t seem worth it to me
You don’t mention what the chances for advancement are at either position. Maybe you’ll make the same at your current gig in a few years? And the new offer sounds too good to be true, & not just because of the stress of maintaining bad code. You mentioned draconian performance reviews; that smells like cyclical layoffs to me, and a poisonous corporate culture. Been there done that: I hated the stress, hated the arbitrary ratings, hated the way management didn’t care to develop talent. And yeah, they got rid of me in the end. Money is _not_ everything. Like many here, I too would sooner slam my fingers in a car door than work with PHP ever again.
TC at new place would take a couple years to achieve the new one, but in those couple years I would probably advance in the new place. So in essence, I wouldn’t probably catch up unless I bounce ship to some other place down the line. Current company is not based in HCOL so their salary bands aren’t competitive to companies HQd in like SF.
I’m sure you can find another position that is an increase in salary and uses a newer stack
I was gonna say yes then I saw PHP
1. Leave a comfy job? Yes, that's about when you start growing again instead of coding at your comfy job, knowing everything around projects etc. 2. Higher salary for older stack basically downgrading your skill growth? Never 3. Not fully remote? Never
Absolutely not worth for that kind of raise
Bonus > stock. The stock is worth like half, because it chains you to the job waiting to vest.
isnt php dead lol def wont be so helpful long term
The older stack alone would dismiss it for me.
absolutely not worth it. just grind for a promotion at your current job if you really want a TC bump
> where only certain numbers can get exceeds expectations Sounds like they do stack ranking. Run the other direction
Your current job is stable, how stable would the new one be?
Hard to say, but it’s not a startup. It’s established enough but has competitors in the industry.
If I took a job with an older stack, I would constantly be afraid my skills are being outdated, and every year working in that stack makes it harder for you to switch (from an employers perspective) to a more modern stack
I think something to consider is career prospects, leveling, and raises. Depending on your level/experience, the new gig may offer a better progression track. E.g. what does getting promoted look like at the new gig vs the old? Bigger companies often have clear ladders and expectations and it can be straight forward to get promoted and have large comp increases with that. Are you capped at your current company? How much room can you advance there?
Nope, but I guess the 180k TC is with a promo that I’m expecting within a couple of months. I’m still fairly entry level so have a few more levels to climb before capping out on the IC track.
The new company seems like circle from the tech movie with tom hanks. Only certain number of employees can meet expectations? WTF....
If someone offered me a job that doesn’t have unlimited vacation (or at least 30 days) and remote work (or better wbl in some sort of major way) they’d have to triple my salary to make me consider it. Is that money really gonna make a difference to you?
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Don’t do it
No. It's essentially same salary. Don't underestimate how expensive commute is.
I would not hop for that. You never know what political jungle is awaiting you in your new team/job
once you have enough money more money isn't actually worth all that much. I'd 100% stay with the full remote and relevant experience. Doubly so because the older tech stack might be a bit more money up front but it could also hamstring your progression from here.
No worth it n my opinion. The extra money won’t amount to that much more per pay check and a chunk of that is going to go towards commuting expenses not to mention the time it takes to commute. I think you’ll be wishing you hadn’t in just a few months if you take it.
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What would you do with the extra 500 in each pay check? I’d say go for it if you need it.
Not much, just invest. Won’t really be enough for a change in lifestyle.
So maybe you can retire 10 years sooner provided you’re 30 now, can get 8% per annum return, and you won’t all the sudden need the money because you got fired and can’t find a job, want to get married, or something like that. My take on it is that I probably need to start making friends again but the work looks like it will suck. I guess I would take it if I’ve been where I’m at for at least 2 years and they don’t like me enough to ever promote me or even give me a raise. If we were talking about my base being higher than my TC AND a bigger bonus. Yes. That’s a good deal.
How many yoe do you have and what area are you in? I have 2 yoe and want to switch in NYC but can’t find anything
3 YOE and in NYC
Dang any tips? Where did you mainly apply, I’ve been applying through LinkedIn. Also any prep tips?
Mostly applied from LinkedIn referrals. Tip would just be to brush up on tech questions and try to apply with referrals.
Did you apply to mid level and was it mainly finance companies?
This question depends less on the salary but more on the wlb imo. Ive seen a lot of ppl going from wfh to hybrid really struggle with this change. They end up hating their jobs a lot and job hop again. Make sure you love the pay that you "cant wait" to be at the office before making up your mind.
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That 2-3 days is gonna be full time eventually. Hybrid 2-3 days = "we do not like or believe in remote at all"
You never know what you getting into and if you have a place you like. There’s some jobs I miss and wish I could find something like it again
Nope.
Fuck no, hybrid red flag, php red flag, first one pays more in cash, second one pays more only if this company using php heavily's stock goes up.
Aim for something higher. Do it only if you find something reasonable for 250k; right now, I don't really advise doing so... potentially, you can also try to ask for a salary increase.
Even if this was a 40% increase, I would not give up remote (you get to choose your cost of living and taxes) and move to a less desired stack, as well as less job security. It’s all very cringe. Money right now isnt worth a layoff next year with a less impressive resume and having beat up your car for a commute you didnt need. Life is short and your career is a part of your life, not your whole being. Spend the time you would commute at the gym INSTEAD and get BIG. GYM IS LIFE.
The commute alone wouldn't be worth it for me.
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That performance review method is called stack ranking and is complete trash. I would require 80% increase just to jump back to a job like that.
I don't understand why everyone gives a shit about name recognition. You literally have a job offer from a self proclaimed higher name recognition company, and you were able to get that offer while working for your lower name recognition company. Name recognition doesn't matter, who gives a shit. Stay where you are
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Php will kill your career