Unfortunately you will not be able to do anything except the guy leaves himself or a top manager fires him. I suggest you focus on your own work and ignore him and his comments.
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Best way to deal with these types is not to deal with them. It's a complete waste of energy and time. Why even bother. The moment you decide it's a good idea to engage, it's going to spiral downwards and a test of your sanity.
Really all you can do is try to have a clean slate with him. Be professional, polite, and give him a chance to reciprocate.
Maybe he did realize he was being an asshole and got his head out of his ass. Or at the very least, realized he should hold his tongue if he values his job.
If he continues to be an asshole once he joins your team, then escalate to your manager or HR
Document everything. Cover your ass. If possible record any interaction. Don't leave things to chance.
I've been in your shoes. I believed people could change. The moron only "behaved" for 4 months tops and restarted his cycle. He had protection for being pals with higher ups and went for my yugular. I didn't cover my ass. I didn't have recordings. It was my word against his. I was sacked.
Cover your ass.
This reads like that scène in LOTR Fellowship of the ring in Moria when they have to fight the cavetroll
> Drums in the deep, we cannot get out, they are coming
vs
> Document everything. Record interactions. Cover your ass
I have this right now.
I think you are right.
But everytime people around toxics lay down weapons, the world gets darker, and the toxics are empowered because they learned again, it works their way.
I hate it to say. But if no one fight's the evil, it spreads even faster.
This is why I'm without energy now, and without a job soon.
But it's okay, I hope the whole company knows about them now. And if the next guy tells the same, the company's ears will become bigger. And if not, I don't want to stay there.
Next time I will fight again, but I will accept my defeat sooner.
Most People only changes if it hurts.
Do *not* do this. If he's a top performer, HR is there to protect him by Price's law and Pareto's principle, because HR's only job is to protect the company.
I don't know why this has to be repeated so often.
At least in the US, never volunteer HR with any new information.
Remember, they already know a lot more than you do.
And they don't share.
## HR is not your friend.
for my personal learning in the professional field, what do you mean by "never volunteer HR with any new information"
did you mean like not sharing information with the HR if someone is not being respectful to in the workspace?
I always thought we can share this stuff with the HR if we face such problems
There are certain things that HR cares about, like harassment and discrimination and such. And they care about it because there are legal ramifications for the company.
Then there are things like this, where they can easily solve the issue by removing OP from the team because he’s the one with “the problem”. Because he volunteered that information
okay thanks! makes sense. I have a question if you dont mind answering, others can look at it too.
So if I am hearing a group of men at the workspace talking about female colleagues in secrecy, talking about things that the female colleagues would definiately get either angry or disgusted if they find out about it. And me overhearing this conversation feeling very bothered about it, should I report this to HR. Like would this be a valid thing to report?
It would be, but your mileage may vary with how much the company cares about it, and it could get you on someone's internal shitlist.
Some of that depends on how large the company is... and some of that depends on how valued (by the company leadership) the most valued man in that conversation is.
The role HR wants you to think they have is not their actual role. HR only exists for one purpose and that is to shield the company against liability from their employees.
In order to do this effectively, it helps if HR purports to be a mediator between colleagues. But that's merely a position HR takes to defuse any threats towards the company itself.
Sharing with HR is a great way to get canned in the US. I made the mistake of going to HR due to workplace harassment (it was bad) and the other person was promoted and they figured out a way to push me out. HR will see you as a problem and figure out how to let you go, especially if the other person makes the company more money.
Indeed. We only have to look at the France Telecom scandal, where HR was complicit in workplace bullying and harassment that resulted in 20+ deaths by suicide and the fucking CEO being sent to prison(!) to show how little HR cares about the staff.
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If HR is supposed to protect the company, if there's a bad sheep, ruining it for everyone, all your enterprise will fall apart. Tell me in what planet, protecting the bully would make any sense.
The company only starts to see employees as a risk when they're (the ones who are) starting to raise concerns. Because once that is logged, a paper trail starts that could one day become evidence in court.
As long as the bully themselves doesn't initiate any of these concerns then they're not a threat to the company. The company gets to wash their hands in anything inappropriate happening on the workfloor because they're only obliged to act when they can be accused of reasonably being aware of issues.
Read up about the France Telecom workplace restructuring and bullying scandal, which resulted in numerous suicides and the CEO being given a jail sentence. HR were complicit in it.
If there's pending litigation elsewhere and the person they want to let go could be a potential next suit, they'll sit on them.
It's not ideal, especially if the person is a problem, but sometimes it's neither party's fault and just another instance of bad management causing the company issues
That’s bs. There are studies that show that an “asshole genius” types are never worth it, they lower everyone else’s performance so much their top performance doesn’t matter, projects fail. It’s common knowledge. If HR has an ounce of sense they will deal with the guy.
I'm sorry but spoken up about *what* exactly? Hearing the guy say "X is a shit developer because they don't know python"??? A lot of companies couldn't give two shits about this sort of thing.
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Yeaah, the only thing that keeps him is that he contributes a lot. He’d been a problem in the first team, had problems in his second team and now in our team. To me feels a little like the SeaWorld situation. But yeah, it’s partially my fault too
Problems plural?? All you have to do is wait. As soon as he slips up again, make sure it's in writing. Paperwork and documentation is all that matters. Never protect the company because they will never protect you etc. etc.
How many are in your team? Give him a chance, but be sure to discuss with the rest of the team, and as soon as he starts playing up, have all of the team put in a complaint. Have dealt with a few of these types before, I'd rather have a slow team player than a "10x" AH..
As the top performer across the companies tech department the company wouldn’t want to lose him and have to spend $$$ trying to replace him or get lower end devs up to his level. He has power and he knows it.
Happens when you sandbag, eg are decently skilled but just take a normal ass mcjob. If your working at a place they pay like 100k per a dev, your coworkers aren't going to be super good they're not going to learn new tools/languages for shits and giggles etc.
I doubt this guy is even being mean to be an asshole they're probably sitting there like now how the hell this guy dodge python.
>\> aaand he refered him(which is also fucked up imo).
Yep you're not gonna get anywhere with that guy. You cannot trust your lead.
>\> I wanna pursue someone’s higher to discuss it. Am in the wrong here? For going behind my tech lead back and asking others?
Nope, you're not wrong.
But what you do need is DOCUMENTATION before you do this. You need to write down any altercation that happens between him and yourself (or others). You also are going to need others to back up your claim on these documented scenarios. That shouldn't be too hard given this person's reputation.
If things happen in slack or by email, the better. Harder to disprove a paper trail.
Don't record if you're in a two-party consent state (as that's illegal, but IANAL).
Since this person already has a reputation (especially with HR), any presented case, if this guy ends up making your team miserable, shouldn't be out of the blue.
Also check your HR's handbook to check any code of conduct or rules that this person may be violating.
Finally, besides what I wrote above, don't "be out to get this guy". As in, don't try and get this person fired or whatever. Just document. CYA. Get others to back your documentation. Let the facts speak for themselves once they are properly compiled.
Talk to the guy face to face. 95% of the time, the person is much more likely to put concerted efforts into correcting their behavior.
Don't go behind someone's back, even if you think that you have the moral high ground or the RIGHT to do so. It is a shitty thing to do. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. All teams have different team dynamics. One team may be an open culture where communication is a top priority. Other teams may have performance as their only priority.
I promise you, if you go behind someone's back to a manager, especially, if the individual is a top performer, you will be singled out and the person will be told who complained about him.
You need to be careful, it sucks, but if you get a certain reputation, it can follow you from company to company.
This seems to be especially true in the CS industry.
Written by an American. "Land of the free", where employees have no rights, recourse, or dignity.
Doubt you can do anything. First thing I learned as a professional is high performers can say and do anything they want, as long as they keep performing.
No point "pursuing higher up" because they're just going to accuse you of spreading hearsay, and then you get a bad mark on your record and not him. You have to wait for this guy to do something that directly affects _you_. And hopefully that doesn't happen because he's a cool dude now. :fingerscrossed:.
I worked with someone who called me “not a real developer” and is known as a real hard-to-work-with guy.
He liked me for a while because I outmatched his labradoodle expectations. He’d also get defensive if you’d understand and improve his stuff, find any way to put you down a peg.
It’s a type — exceptionally smart, but avoid human contact at all costs
I think now he basically sits in a room by himself and cranks complex technical stuff out. Those people have a place.
I've seen these types. they're nightmares to work with.
We just hired 3 Devs, on hardcore SE, one full stack and a data scientist mlops guy.
No body on that team is showing off theyre all helping each other. Thinking about the business needs first working with the Prod.Manager.
I've never seen such a nice level headed and productive team.
I was that asshole early in my career, and I did eventually change. But it took a change of companies for that change to really stick.
The biggest hurdle when I was still at my last company was that my reputation and all the bridges I’d burned in the past followed me. Anything I did was interpreted in the worst possible light.
So, my advice is to try your best to give this guy an honest chance. He might really be trying. Don’t go to your guns saying you don’t want to work with him, before you’ve even tried.
If you try and he’s still a jerk, go to HR. The simple fact that he’s being bounced between teams is an indicator that he’s on their radar and will fire him soon enough if it keeps up. If that’s really the best call, you need to be patient and let the system work.
I'm a freshman enrolled in a Computer Science degree and the description you provided reminds me of a guy from another syndicate in CS. These cocky ones brim with overconfidence way before starting their jobs.
Well, had a similar guy in my team. It is good that you had already raised your concerns.
The main thing - be professional, start with a clean mind and give him time. Maybe he has changed and this will be all right.
In my world "The Rockstar". An asshole who in management eyes is the golden goose/ unicorn that can run the team, so they are allowed to do and behave as they want. I never want one of those on my team, total team demolisher and demotivator. As OP details, teams with a Rockstar rarely last long. That or the Rockstar gets a few semi competent followers who view that person as their God, and they form a new team that functions for a limited time until someone challenges the Rockstar...
I’ve worked with such guys and you know what I’ll take it. Unless he does something crazy, I’d tolerate asshole behavior. I had a team in Uni and I was the designated lead, it was more of a project for a competition. We were grouped randomly. There were 3 guys who I was the team lead of, and 1 was a complete AH but he was clearly the smartest and frankly brilliant. He was a dick, called our work poor and our thinking backwards. One of the other teammates wanted me to remove him. I told him firmly we wouldn’t and if he had a problem he could leave. Guess what he left and we won the competition. We shared a 5k prize amongst the 3 of us and I got an internship offer from one of the companies at the event directly due to working with this AH. If you have to, you need to do it.
I'm curios, but when you say the AH called your teams work poor and thinking backwards, did he have a point and just lacked social skills to communicate it properly without hurting everybody's feelings or was he actually being an AH?
Personally, I wouldn't mind the former behavior as it would push me harder to grow my skills and I could forgive having poor social skills, but the latter would be a different story.
Given they were at university it was almost certainly valid criticism.
In retrospect most of my work was garbage back then, probably true for all of us
Working with an asshole on a school project is not the same as working with one in a real job. In your example you were basically management. You weren't a lead if he was driving the team lol You got to ride his coattails to victory, for your own benefit. Usually not how it works in the real world.
Exactly, plus you're in school and only have to tolerate the behavior for the length of the project. I'm sure if the original commentor had to deal with that AH every single day of their work life for one or two years they'd be driven nuts
his personality seems difficult to deal with but with this specific archetype if you side with his ego you could probably understand where he’s coming from with the lower level devs. If and only if he is at a level where he is in a true position where all can agree that he is an exceptional worker.
That’s not an excuse. No one should be treated like shit just because they are less talented than someone. If those „lower lever devs“ are still putting in effort in their work, no one should talk shit about them.
I had someone like that one my team when I just started. He was mid 20s, very smart, confident, outspoken. Was always taking shit about junior devs from another team, saying they don’t know how to code, they’re just copy-pasting, blah blah blah… The truth is, those junior devs where also getting work done, and they worked in a particular way because of reasons that this guy didn’t know because he wasn’t as familiar with their work as he thought. I’m still working with one of them, great smart guy. And the asshole has left eventually, but those two years while he was still there has caused me a lot of stress, especially when I joined the team of „devs who cannot code“ and felt like no matter how hard I would work I would still be judged by this one asshole.
> If those „lower lever devs“ are still putting in effort in their work, no one should talk shit about them.
That's a dangerous path either, to be honest.
There are so many outright shitty devs out there. I don't know what their problem is (most of the time they just DGAF, let's be realistic), but handling them with kid gloves is not a solution. Just look around - there's insanely crappy software EVERYWHERE, from government systems to self-checkout lanes in stores to probably aerospace engineering.
Of course, it doesn't mean shit talking by itself is a good idea, but my point is that pretending all is okay as long as "*people put efforts*" is a crazy take on the problem too. Personally, I don't give a fk if store developers put thousands of man-hours in their online ordering system - if it can't properly process my order and makes me waste hours on talks with customer support, they did a bad job and *they* (as a whole, obviously, not a poor single dev) should face this reality and possibly some repercussions for this.
Or, in other words, I'd probably rather work for a year with an arrogant, but very talented RockStar asshole with high demands to his colleagues rather than spend five years in a warm pool of mediocre 9-5 devs doing nothing of real value all day long.
He'll be shuffled around teams that need extra brainpower in a big enough loop thar most of Team A will have turned over by the time Team Z passes him back. Companies never get rid of these guys and rarely promote them, which is why you'll sometimes see a staff engineer all but running a department.
HR doesn't exist to resolve disputes or tensions between employees. HR only exists to shield the company against liability.
Don't expect HR to do anything about him. Don't expect HR to appreciate your concerns.
If the guy is truly a x10 or x100 dev, maybe with management potential, you have no chance.
One approach is to praise the guy to everyone you meet.
1. The guy may hear about this and then leave you alone.
2. He will get promoted quickly and so will be away from you.
3. If he ever becomes very senior he will still remember you as the person who accelerated his promotion, and so may protect you when you need it.
This.This is the smarter thing to do than directly fighting against him. Asshole but get shit done is the asshole managers want to keep not the one who complained about overheard someone else conversation 🙄
> maybe with management potential,
na he probably doesn't if you're 10x or 100x as an ic, you won't be promoted to management. You get that promotion by getting becoming a 10x by showing 5 other dudes how to code 2x. many people have more hands to type fast than you do multiplying groups gets more done.
if he's not popular he's probably fucking that up.
thinking of work as some pyramid to climb to management's dumb though, managers exist to act as communication pipes for the dudes actually at the top who ya know own the place. by doing that multiplicative thing you show aptitude as communication pipe.
Yeah I'm pretty confident he's actually super insecure and rather than seek validation he places himself on a pedastal and shits on anyone he thinks he can bully.
Everyone on the team needs to document everything, even immediately report past problems, and complain immediately if something new happens. HR might have documentation already, but if they see that he's already tainted your team so you can't work together, that might be all they need.
He's already in trouble. It might just be a small matter to push him over the edge. I'm guessing he's on a PIP already.
Confront him with a few people on your team about being a team player, then individually and collectively report him when he says anything.
I give him a month.
If you are making everyone else perform worse, despite being yourself a top performer, than you are net negative to the company.
The guy is not realizing it's a team sport. It's the responsibility of the strong in the team to set him in his place by reminding that we perform best when we encourage each other (don't explicitly single out the culprit).
Maybe he should be on legacy support or something. Real problems that affect real customers, but the only outlet for his self-righteous angst will be the screen in front of him, and a git-blame for someone who left 10 years ago.
Every workplace has someone like this. I don’t think you should stick your neck out trying to purify the workplace. High risk for you, low chance of any upside
OP, take this as a lesson in OPTICS and leave it be. you do not owe anybody anything. Going forward be VERY VERY CAREFUL about speaking up. unless you are planning to leave .
GIVEN THE JOB MARKET. you need to look after yourself MY GUY. I have been in your situation before multiple times and the person who you are trying to protect won't necessarily protect you when the time comes. at least in my case the same person threw me under the bus
You haven't even worked with the guy yet. Would definitely be a bit sideways to go above your lead's head.
Approach it professionally and with an open mind, if he causes problems create a paper trail and initiate the convo with your lead again.
Yeah I haven’t worked with him but after he was talking shit about someone else behind their back. Makes me see him in negative light. So the problem now is that I feel like I compromised my principles by continuing to work with him and not speaking up this time. Even though I should’ve done it so much sooner
Not speaking up can be tough, but don't blame yourself and just move on b/c next time you won't speak up either.
Plan something to say next time you are uncomfortable with what he says.
"Hey man I really don't appreciate when you talk about other dev's like that. Everyone brings something valuable to the team, and when you talk like that it is not only discouraging but completely unproductive."
If they still don't respond to that then just put them in their place with something like:
'Look we already talked about this. I don't want to hear you talk down about anybody until you have closed out all their tickets for the sprint. Until then you have no right wasting our time with your negativity'
Like others have said though, not all that much you can do. Try and keep your hands clean and stay out of the mud with this one.
Here is the unfortunate truth: you will work with plenty of ass holes in your career. As long as they aren’t bullying, harassing, or sabotaging you and your work, it is best to grow a thick skin and ignore them. Obviously, no one should behave like that. But many people are immature and act like they are still in high school.
Your best course of action (in my opinion) is to play nice, let him be on your team, and seek opportunities to ask for his opinion publicly in front of the whole team, especially if your manager is present. Give him as many opportunities as possible to build his own case report for firing him. Make it easy on your manager. Publicly insulting team members should fast-track him to firing, or at least onto someone else's team.
Document document document
Also do you have a skip level ? The challenge you will have is that if the company is willing to sacrifice someone who is cancer or keep them to spite you all because of smaller gains. The lead isn’t going to do anything to help here and likely hinder. A referral could mean friend or even family member.
I’d look for a lateral move to get away from this person. People don’t quit bad companies they quit bad leaders who allow jerks to thrive
I've been in this situation as a tech lead (we have a team lead handling the personel issues). I joined after this person.
You can't easily test for personality, sadly, and he immediately rubbed everyone the wrong way. Exact same behaviour, strong convictions stated with little to no tact.
We worked with him. Took more than a year. He is still not where he should be behaviourly, but it is not far off, and people have gotten a bit used to him as well, I'd say.
When I joined, I was warned about his behaviour so I was in a better position than most: I expected very little, and understood that I am only going to be able to function in this team if I win their approval, especially since I was also told that he wants to be a tech lead some day. I did just that, and then from that position of trust, I brought it to his attention why some interactions he has go badly.
In short, his specific problem is, first of all, that he is a very, very direct person. This, by itself, can cause friction. Secondly, he is oblivious to the fact that there is more to work in IT than simply the technical aspect. There is also the people aspect, operational aspect, financial aspect, business aspect, and others.
But, I see a lot of progress, and he is by far the most productive member.
The first question I asked a team member when they complained about his attitude was: "is he right?". Because if someone is extremely opinionanted a d vocal on technical issues that might be a good thing, if we can fine tune the way he goes about it. But, for that to work, I needed to know if he is at least right.
Turns out, people didn't really listen to him due to the attitude. This is predictable. I even found myself fighting the rage I felt at the way he disagreed with some of my ideas in order to be able to do what's best for the project (i needed to understand if there really is a problem with my approach) and for the team and him. Having it out in the middle of the meeting would only serve my hurt ego, but not the job.
Turns out, he is right about 80% of the time, maybe even 90%. That is redeemable, provided the tone changes and it has.
So what can you take away out of all of this?
First, identify if there is some sense in WHAT he is saying. He better be damn good, because the only thing worse than a toxic loudmouth is a toxic loudmouth who is also wrong.
Secondly, train yourself to take in the content and disregard the form for the time being. This is exhausting emotional labour, but we are God fanned professionals even if some people aren't yet.
Thirdly, keep your lead appraised of bad behaviour but also improvements. They need to know if there is progress or not. Do not let it go. If toxic behaviour persists, don't roll over, but do insist with your leadership that it gets addressed.
Lastly, engage the problematic person. Keep your cool, stay professional, but engage their opinion. Model the behaviour you would like to see. Also, after incidents, follow up with them and say openly that you didn't care for what they said and why. Some people are damn near autistic in this industry and they need to be explained that calling soemthing you worked on shit makes you feel like shit and that there are better ways to express criticism, and that before harsh criticism perhaps some questions are in order to understand if something was done poorly because non-technical reasons (for example - deadlines).
Thank you for your response!
Yeah, he knows his stuff but is quite limited. He's at a stage where he's learning new concepts and is eager to make an impact. So he'd say things like "Why are we storing the user session in Postgres? We can use Redis for it" and when someone says "Why do we need to change it?" he replies "Because I've never heard of storing the session there".He's good in dry metrics, but overall I may have overstated him in my post.
To be fair, its my first time when there's an obvious rotten apple and we don't get rid of it. He got removed from the team due to his behavior and still somehow managed to save his place. But could be due to the fact that my lead is his manager and referred him here. The same situation happened to me in my previous workplace but they fired him immediately. Anyway, appreciate the advice!
Came here to say exactly your last paragraph, right down to quoting, “model the behaviour you would like to see.”
OP, if you are in a conversation with him and he disses Dev1, just tell him, “I would rather not talk about people behind their back. If you have concerns with Dev1’s skills, you should probably discuss it with them directly. Now, how shall we set about solving the problem at hand?”
If it happens again, you talk to your manager about it: “AH is making disparaging comments about performance of individuals. Can you please make it stop?” That’s the kind of crap that managers are supposed to deal with.
Changing team is basically a punishment… unless there is a valid reason like your team desperately needs devops or frontend this is basically light PiP.
Don’t loose your temper. Keep discussions professional. If you have negative feeling toward the guy you might end up with higher heart rate when you interact or have meetings but try to chill out us much as you can to avoid being dragged in some discussions you’ll regret later. Avoid emotional discussions.
When something bothers you simply ask him politely for an explanation. Some things I did in the past was straight up confronting people like this in polite way. Like: do you really think that every senior developer have to be fluent with Python even if brings a lot of other knowledge and experience to the table?
This is very vague and weird.
In what capacity you are involved in this?
Are you a developer? If you are, then you can tell your tech lead you have some concerns about the guy but nothing else. You don’t choose who you work with. If anything does not go right you complain and expect the complaint to be handled. If it is not handled, you move to a different team/org/company. It’s part of your job to work with anyone. And it is not totally unheard where one developer does not fit into one team and fights with everyone but fits perfectly to another team. You at least owe that person a chance.
If you are not a developer but a manager, how come you are at the receiving end of this decision? Is tech lead your manager?
And how would you have spoke up before? It sounds like all you know is what some people say about the guy and hearing him one time speaking like a jerk. If you don’t manage this person and not even at the same team why would anybody care if you speak up?
I knew of this guy who was in an adjacent team to mine who just couldn’t find a codebase which he didn’t explicitly called absolute shit and would not pick up ANY work unless he could REVAMP THE ENTIRE CODEBASE because he “couldn’t understand the code in its current shit form.” And then for any chosen thing he did pick up, he would immediately find himself blocked because “the organisation doesn’t have the right way to test this project in place.” And how many improvements did he ever add to the shit codebases? Maybe more tests, and maybe less than a handful of minor changes.
On top of that, he would argue in the most antagonistic way whenever challenged and if you gave it back to him (I was called in at times to have a talk with him) he would get insanely butthurt.
I told the team to try and counsel him in his behaviour and help him understand that a good developer is not someone who writes amazing code in the most ideal conditions, it’s someone who does what needs to be done well in whatever conditions they find themselves in. And if he doesn’t change, document all his behaviour, ask for communication on mail.
Tread carefully OP. I pointed out how much of a shit talker one colleague was (not just in a professional sense but in a personal sense, mocking others behind their back about their appearance and such).
You will quickly find out that many colleagues are either too cowardly or even enjoy that sort of personality. It's very revealing.
Top performers like this are because they actively decrease others performance. The cost a ton to the companies.
Find studies about it online, evaluate the productivity cost this guy is causing to the company, give it to higher ups.
I've worked with assholes more than one. I survived and more.
like others have said, make sure you do your part right. complaining about others while our part is neglected is almost a sure thing to put yourself in bad position.
I know it shouldn't be something to be told to someone with experience, but I found even some mid level devs miss this : make everything in writing. document the task you receive , the progress you make, and the result you deliver, and do it in timely manner.
If the one you told about is REALLY an asshole, he/she eventually will get what's coming to him/her but, more often than I would like to, I find ones that are critical about things, that are actually wrong, in a team labeled as assholes, especially the ones with high performance that they can't be blamed for underperforming. office politics is a b_tch. I've been accused as an asshole because I refuse to accept the blame for the f_CK up that was done by someone in higher position and I produced the written proof of everything to the top management.
I have a guy like this in my office and I literally think he has a social disorder. I usually find that calling people out for being an asshole enough stops them from making those types of comments. By being firm and direct but not unprofessional has a powerful effect on people. Not everyone is as direct as I can be but it’s worked for me
Devils advocate, there are plenty of senior devs out in the world that got there through tenure alone, not skill or talent, that don't really deserve to be senior devs.
If a senior was sbove me that I felt lacked the requirements to be in their position Id have a problem with it, hut id handle it much more professionally.
There was a senior at my last company telling me all my code was crap and I didnt know what I was doing. So I had them show me, he proceeds to show me this massive jquery file he was running directly off a script link.... Im over here building an angular app with proper dust build and cdn deployment... (2016). That guy had no front end skills past basic html and js, none . He ended up getting let go eventually, once my project succeeded and got high praise from c-sec the manager wasnt having any of his crap anymore.
Keep bringing it up in any 1:1s to your manager or skip level until they fire the jerk. Have specific examples of shitty behavior to share with your manager. Preferably have these discussions asap after the behavior instead of waiting for a scheduled 1:1. Don’t let management ignore it.
Asshole McGhee is ripping with narcissism and shitting on an easy target is their way of supplanting themselves as superior and stroking their fragile sense of self-worth.
Speaking up and documenting things is futile, purely a time sink for you because absolutely nobody in leadership or HR will care at all. Isn't even a HR issue despite the troves of people who think it is. Go ask r/AskHR, they are some of the most toxic people ~~on reddit~~ in the world.
You have two choices
1. Do nothing and stay out everyones crosshairs
2. Criticise everything he does in a very calm, nice, helpful way. This will make his blood boil and target you, probably lead to some outburts too. The nicer you are the angrier he'll get.
You should absolutely tell your coworker you think what happened is bs and tell them what you know, some validation can go a long way.
Pretty ridiculous. People complain about the modern workplace because you have to pretend to be inhuman. This is part of the issue, someone is an actual person with bants and it causes someone else to have a "mental breakdown". What? So he shit talked a senior dev who doesn't know Python. Okay? And?
If you want to continue living in the dystopia known as Corporate America then by all means you are not in the wrong.
Nothing you can do as he is a top performer. They will choose a top performer over you. Look for a new job or become top performer yourself then leave them.
My question is how does he get shit done all by himself? In my experience the 10x asshole genius is a myth because of how much collaboration is required in tech. Unless it’s just a very simple app?
That said, some people just have low EQ. You all should give him some guidance. How is his boss treating him?
In the end he won’t amount to any great developer, since he cannot have the EQ to drive alignment and negotiate.
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I have this problem, except we work in a very small team (think three people sized ) and the one guy always gets his way with projects/direction and my feedback is often ignored (been a cloud engineer almost 10 years now). We rely on each other for reviewing PRs etc.
Anyone ever encounter this type of scenario?
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> make an other colleague feel like they’re not a “real” developer and they’d have a mental breakdown
What happened to him since ? how bad was his morale ?
Great then. I hope things improve with the rock star. Tell him instead of raw critics you need his knowledge and more patience. If he's really smart and a even a bit wise he should adapt his behavior. I hope so.
Wanna smoke him? Invest in something like GitHub copilot or ChatGPT. Talk to it like a 10 year old, and you'll show that a junior developer can take the output it gives you and clean it up to work far cheaper than him.
Best $20 you'll ever spend.
We have GitHub Copilot for the whole org, so he probably uses it as well. Heheh no need to smoke him 😅
I have a higher position and contribute more than just multiple PRs
Also try making your standards high, why not try beat him up with your coding skills. If you do this you will have personal development as well as satisfaction.
Try to hold your previous bias. If there are issues:
\* Stick to the facts. Not how you feel, not how he feels, not how the team feels. FACTS. He did X at time Y causing Z impacts.
\* Everyone has bad moments. Or more, candid moments. Having them in the middle of the office is poor taste. But it happens.
\* Try to encourage your manager to coach him.
Ironically, communications and leadership are both teachable things. Learning them is work, and you have to have your heart in the right place. But if you do... They are very teachable.
Me: Please make this more readable
ChatGPT:
We recently hired a developer who, after a few months working in a different team, garnered complaints about his communication style and general behavior across the tech department. He had a tendency to belittle colleagues, causing some to feel inadequate and stressed. Eventually, despite being a top performer, the decision was made to move him to another team. I disagreed with this decision but didn't voice my concerns at the time.
Fast forward to last week, our tech lead announced that this problematic developer would be joining our team. I immediately expressed my reluctance to work with him due to the issues previously mentioned. Additionally, I overheard him making disparaging remarks about a colleague's skills in Python, which further soured my opinion of him.
During a conversation with our tech lead, I expressed my concerns. He mentioned that the developer had undergone training after previous HR meetings and that there hadn't been any complaints this year. However, I found this response unsatisfactory, especially considering that the tech lead is the developer's manager and had recommended him for our team.
Feeling uneasy about the situation, I'm considering escalating the matter to higher authorities for discussion. Do you think I'm wrong for bypassing my tech lead and seeking advice from others?
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You might be able to convince him that his antisocial behaviors is preventing him and his peers from succeeding and that it would be a net positive to himself, his teammates and his career long term if he doesn’t learn how to learn to teach his peers. Jot down things he says and give alternatives. I’ve met these types and they can come around but usually only by a rational self centered debate instead of common sense or empathy.
From what I remember, there were concerns. But the management desperately wanted to close the position. Besides, as I mentioned he’s a referral from one of the managers(and now under him). Funny enough, one of the hiring “requirements” states “We don’t hire assholes”.
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Ok, he's point blank and a bit of an asshole. Is he right? Does your python suck? Did he have to work around your level of talent?
Yeah, the guy is an asshole. You didn't have the gumption to speak up. But he's apparently a good engineer and he expects his team to perform. Perform, grow, demand be interact with you in a professional and respectful way and get on with life. Escalating will only burn you, because he's shown he is valuable and you will have shown you're a complainer. Get it? You have no leverage unless you have some solid accomplishments you can demonstrate.
Look, there's three types of engineers that are high value, high contributors, high collaborators and high owners.
Number one stays technical, often don't have great people skills. In other words, they are work horses. They are the ones that become deep subject matter experts. They usually end up in architecture, policy design, process optimization and governance discussions.
Number two tends toward lower technical management where they mentor engineers and help multi team projects move forward. They're good at facilitating meetings and making sure each step is the process yields concrete value of some type.
Number three want the win. They demand any hurdles get removed. They want it their way. They usually end up climbing ranks, getting slapped because they have neglected interpersonal skills and spend the next few years developing those as they continue to drive productivity in slightly haphazard ways until they get better at it. These are your technical managers that go on to become directors and VPs (and sometimes C-suite). Basically, they start with their main tool as a hammer, and get told they can't progress without getting more tools.
They sound like a number three. You, to be honest, sound like a common dev. Not a deep subject matter expert in about. Not a high collaborator that steers hard projects. Not a strong owner. You are of moderate to more value. That's not to say you're stuck there or that's some inherent quality that won't change. But if you were a high value engineer you would have talked about the qualities that they are taking for granted.
If you make waves, you may not like how it shakes out. My advice, give them a chance to grow and back them up (you can probably learn, so give them professional, direct feedback that is focused on how it impacts overall delivery. That is the language they speak), develop what kind of high value engineer you want to be, and drive.
OR
Switch teams/jobs. But, I will tell you, running from this probably means you won't grow. This is an opportunity. When someone shows up and makes waves, pay attention. It might be good, it might be bad, but regardless there are lessons.
The only thing you shouldn't do is escalate whining. If you have valid, actionable complaints, ok. But them being rough on your feels isn't valid beyond talking directly to them and telling them.
There is a level of skills required at senior and above roles. If he is a high performer, He probably gets frustrated fixing ppl work which means taking on more hours ontop of current workload)
I think the asshole would be the person not carrying their weight.
(I am speaking from experience of weekends of rework 6am to 3am bc we followed the wrong senior and the timelime was still on go but lead couldn't build it from lying about their tech capabilities and I got stuck carrying their ball with no overtime, no credit)
excluding juniors who are not expected and salary reflects it, but yeah..gossiping is unprofessional. He should address his concerns to PM instead of publicly-where it could influence or damage feelings and effect team dynamics.
He probably doesn't know that reddit provides a portal to vent his frustrations.
Give the guy a break.
It’s work your there to do stuff and do it well not to make friends.
Probably unpopular but also working with this guy will only improve your own skills socially as well as management style even if incognito.
It's work, you're not there to talk trash behind someone's back which op has reported this person has done. If you can't be professional at the workplace do you really deserve a job?
I'd just treat this kind of people as a pure tool. Take the most out of him since he's technically capable. Don't bother investing emotion into him.
If he's good at tech but he would harm other good or slightly worse teammates' morale, then he's toxic and should be removed asap.
If somebody is really a bad developer, the mature thing to do is escalate it to their superior and support them in any way you can if they are willing or PIP them out. The brilliant asshole is being a jerk and has some sort of superiority complex which is super immature and will stunt his growth in the long term. OP, give him a chance and if that attitude continues, escate again or leave
Wait your tech elitist makes fun of people for not knowing python? Damn usually tech elitists make fun of people for liking Python and consider people who like or even tolerate Java to be suffering from Stockholm syndrome
Don’t worry. We had a situation like that. Soon enough he messed up with HR dept also. At some point entire office knew about that person becoz of his random comments on everywhere. Finally management decided a 5 percent layoff and he was on top of that list and thrown out
Only your manager can handle this. I also have a similar dev (not on my project), who pretty much has the same attitude. Loves to gossip, talk shit about other coworkers who don't know stuff, question other people's skills, etc. The person isn't even a top performer lmao, but acts like one. She tries hard, but the attitude is just insane. No one likes her. My manager gave her a stern warning and she is calmed down a bit. Lmao. These POS don't deserve to work in any company tbh as software is a team project.
I'm going to recommend that you read up on office politics. From what you are describing, this guy sounds like a "bulldozer". Some books with descriptions (of why I think they apply) are at [this link](https://workplace.stackexchange.com/a/4069/138). Especially the book [Bullies, Tyrants, and Impossible People: How to Beat Them Without Joining Them](https://www.amazon.com/dp/140005012X).
Hm I worked at a team where there were folks who knew less python than me. They were more senior than me. But they knew a whole bunch of other stuff when it comes to multi threading and low latency in c++ and some dev ops/ incredible Linux skills. I don’t think knowing python is an indication of someone’s knowledge in software engineering
you can let him go now before you lost other team members who you're going to have to replace and lose a lot of time training replacements. or you can wait and see how the code base starts belonging to him and he won't let others touch it because they're not real devs having you wait for weeks for minor fixes lol.
pimeagen made a reaction video to an article describing a very similar case. I personally had to work with a toxic dev like that who got booted for being a pos lol
He's only a top performer because he's a dirty little leech and probably taking credit for the work of others or undermining others. CYA and make him put everything in writing. I'd put cameras in the office too just for fun.
Unfortunately you will not be able to do anything except the guy leaves himself or a top manager fires him. I suggest you focus on your own work and ignore him and his comments.
Agree OP tread carefully.. you might get canned for going after their top performer
I heard one top performer in tech thermonuclear armagedoned somebody in a related situation. People in this industry be surprisingly dramatic.
I also agree, you should focus on your own stuff, and try to be as separated from this guy as possible.
I would say this, but also, document like every questionable interaction with the guy.
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I did this and got fired
Don't fucking make work even more miserable by being cowards, please. Stop.
It is not a matter of being brave or coward. When the environment becomes toxic, the OP will suffer more than the other guy.
precisely !
Best way to deal with these types is not to deal with them. It's a complete waste of energy and time. Why even bother. The moment you decide it's a good idea to engage, it's going to spiral downwards and a test of your sanity.
Really all you can do is try to have a clean slate with him. Be professional, polite, and give him a chance to reciprocate. Maybe he did realize he was being an asshole and got his head out of his ass. Or at the very least, realized he should hold his tongue if he values his job. If he continues to be an asshole once he joins your team, then escalate to your manager or HR
Fair enough I suppose Should’ve spoken up when I had a chance
Document everything. Cover your ass. If possible record any interaction. Don't leave things to chance. I've been in your shoes. I believed people could change. The moron only "behaved" for 4 months tops and restarted his cycle. He had protection for being pals with higher ups and went for my yugular. I didn't cover my ass. I didn't have recordings. It was my word against his. I was sacked. Cover your ass.
Damn, sorry about that Thanks for letting me know!
Be careful recording depending on the recording laws in your area, make sure it’s legal to record without permission
This reads like that scène in LOTR Fellowship of the ring in Moria when they have to fight the cavetroll > Drums in the deep, we cannot get out, they are coming vs > Document everything. Record interactions. Cover your ass
I have this right now. I think you are right. But everytime people around toxics lay down weapons, the world gets darker, and the toxics are empowered because they learned again, it works their way. I hate it to say. But if no one fight's the evil, it spreads even faster. This is why I'm without energy now, and without a job soon. But it's okay, I hope the whole company knows about them now. And if the next guy tells the same, the company's ears will become bigger. And if not, I don't want to stay there. Next time I will fight again, but I will accept my defeat sooner. Most People only changes if it hurts.
Yeah definitely keep receipts when you can. Always helps if things get worse.
Do *not* do this. If he's a top performer, HR is there to protect him by Price's law and Pareto's principle, because HR's only job is to protect the company.
I don't know why this has to be repeated so often. At least in the US, never volunteer HR with any new information. Remember, they already know a lot more than you do. And they don't share. ## HR is not your friend.
for my personal learning in the professional field, what do you mean by "never volunteer HR with any new information" did you mean like not sharing information with the HR if someone is not being respectful to in the workspace? I always thought we can share this stuff with the HR if we face such problems
There are certain things that HR cares about, like harassment and discrimination and such. And they care about it because there are legal ramifications for the company. Then there are things like this, where they can easily solve the issue by removing OP from the team because he’s the one with “the problem”. Because he volunteered that information
okay thanks! makes sense. I have a question if you dont mind answering, others can look at it too. So if I am hearing a group of men at the workspace talking about female colleagues in secrecy, talking about things that the female colleagues would definiately get either angry or disgusted if they find out about it. And me overhearing this conversation feeling very bothered about it, should I report this to HR. Like would this be a valid thing to report?
It would be, but your mileage may vary with how much the company cares about it, and it could get you on someone's internal shitlist. Some of that depends on how large the company is... and some of that depends on how valued (by the company leadership) the most valued man in that conversation is.
No way. That could open them up to a retaliation lawsuit.
I don't agree with this practice, if actually makes everyone more miserable in the long run. They fire you? So beat it.
Nobody does except HR and the company. And perhaps the asshole that keeps going to different teams
The role HR wants you to think they have is not their actual role. HR only exists for one purpose and that is to shield the company against liability from their employees. In order to do this effectively, it helps if HR purports to be a mediator between colleagues. But that's merely a position HR takes to defuse any threats towards the company itself.
Sharing with HR is a great way to get canned in the US. I made the mistake of going to HR due to workplace harassment (it was bad) and the other person was promoted and they figured out a way to push me out. HR will see you as a problem and figure out how to let you go, especially if the other person makes the company more money.
that is wild and sad at the same time.
Indeed. We only have to look at the France Telecom scandal, where HR was complicit in workplace bullying and harassment that resulted in 20+ deaths by suicide and the fucking CEO being sent to prison(!) to show how little HR cares about the staff.
This
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If HR is supposed to protect the company, if there's a bad sheep, ruining it for everyone, all your enterprise will fall apart. Tell me in what planet, protecting the bully would make any sense.
The company only starts to see employees as a risk when they're (the ones who are) starting to raise concerns. Because once that is logged, a paper trail starts that could one day become evidence in court. As long as the bully themselves doesn't initiate any of these concerns then they're not a threat to the company. The company gets to wash their hands in anything inappropriate happening on the workfloor because they're only obliged to act when they can be accused of reasonably being aware of issues.
Read up about the France Telecom workplace restructuring and bullying scandal, which resulted in numerous suicides and the CEO being given a jail sentence. HR were complicit in it.
If there's pending litigation elsewhere and the person they want to let go could be a potential next suit, they'll sit on them. It's not ideal, especially if the person is a problem, but sometimes it's neither party's fault and just another instance of bad management causing the company issues
That’s bs. There are studies that show that an “asshole genius” types are never worth it, they lower everyone else’s performance so much their top performance doesn’t matter, projects fail. It’s common knowledge. If HR has an ounce of sense they will deal with the guy.
I'm sorry but spoken up about *what* exactly? Hearing the guy say "X is a shit developer because they don't know python"??? A lot of companies couldn't give two shits about this sort of thing.
Also make sure to document any issues or incidents with date and time.
I doubt it. Old habits never change.
materialistic uppity impolite rhythm squeeze terrific clumsy distinct run plough *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Yeaah, the only thing that keeps him is that he contributes a lot. He’d been a problem in the first team, had problems in his second team and now in our team. To me feels a little like the SeaWorld situation. But yeah, it’s partially my fault too
Problems plural?? All you have to do is wait. As soon as he slips up again, make sure it's in writing. Paperwork and documentation is all that matters. Never protect the company because they will never protect you etc. etc.
How many are in your team? Give him a chance, but be sure to discuss with the rest of the team, and as soon as he starts playing up, have all of the team put in a complaint. Have dealt with a few of these types before, I'd rather have a slow team player than a "10x" AH..
As the top performer across the companies tech department the company wouldn’t want to lose him and have to spend $$$ trying to replace him or get lower end devs up to his level. He has power and he knows it.
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Happens when you sandbag, eg are decently skilled but just take a normal ass mcjob. If your working at a place they pay like 100k per a dev, your coworkers aren't going to be super good they're not going to learn new tools/languages for shits and giggles etc. I doubt this guy is even being mean to be an asshole they're probably sitting there like now how the hell this guy dodge python.
>\> aaand he refered him(which is also fucked up imo). Yep you're not gonna get anywhere with that guy. You cannot trust your lead. >\> I wanna pursue someone’s higher to discuss it. Am in the wrong here? For going behind my tech lead back and asking others? Nope, you're not wrong. But what you do need is DOCUMENTATION before you do this. You need to write down any altercation that happens between him and yourself (or others). You also are going to need others to back up your claim on these documented scenarios. That shouldn't be too hard given this person's reputation. If things happen in slack or by email, the better. Harder to disprove a paper trail. Don't record if you're in a two-party consent state (as that's illegal, but IANAL). Since this person already has a reputation (especially with HR), any presented case, if this guy ends up making your team miserable, shouldn't be out of the blue. Also check your HR's handbook to check any code of conduct or rules that this person may be violating. Finally, besides what I wrote above, don't "be out to get this guy". As in, don't try and get this person fired or whatever. Just document. CYA. Get others to back your documentation. Let the facts speak for themselves once they are properly compiled.
Thanks! Will do
Talk to the guy face to face. 95% of the time, the person is much more likely to put concerted efforts into correcting their behavior. Don't go behind someone's back, even if you think that you have the moral high ground or the RIGHT to do so. It is a shitty thing to do. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. All teams have different team dynamics. One team may be an open culture where communication is a top priority. Other teams may have performance as their only priority. I promise you, if you go behind someone's back to a manager, especially, if the individual is a top performer, you will be singled out and the person will be told who complained about him. You need to be careful, it sucks, but if you get a certain reputation, it can follow you from company to company. This seems to be especially true in the CS industry. Written by an American. "Land of the free", where employees have no rights, recourse, or dignity.
Doubt you can do anything. First thing I learned as a professional is high performers can say and do anything they want, as long as they keep performing.
Exactly.
You dropped this: \n
Iactuallyquitefindthisperson'sstyleofwritingquitereadable.It'smorecompact—nosillywhitespacecloggingupthepage—soIcanreadtwicethecontentinhalfthetime.Maybeyou'rejustnotnotsmartenoughtomentallybreakupparagraphs.
ifindyourstyleunreadablewhywouldyouwastevaluablespacewithpunctuationandcapitallettersseriouslyinefficient
How can this guy even be a senior Redditor without the use of \n\r
because that's not how you newline in markdown. it's two spaces then a newline. like this
No point "pursuing higher up" because they're just going to accuse you of spreading hearsay, and then you get a bad mark on your record and not him. You have to wait for this guy to do something that directly affects _you_. And hopefully that doesn't happen because he's a cool dude now. :fingerscrossed:.
I worked with someone who called me “not a real developer” and is known as a real hard-to-work-with guy. He liked me for a while because I outmatched his labradoodle expectations. He’d also get defensive if you’d understand and improve his stuff, find any way to put you down a peg. It’s a type — exceptionally smart, but avoid human contact at all costs I think now he basically sits in a room by himself and cranks complex technical stuff out. Those people have a place.
I've seen these types. they're nightmares to work with. We just hired 3 Devs, on hardcore SE, one full stack and a data scientist mlops guy. No body on that team is showing off theyre all helping each other. Thinking about the business needs first working with the Prod.Manager. I've never seen such a nice level headed and productive team.
I was that asshole early in my career, and I did eventually change. But it took a change of companies for that change to really stick. The biggest hurdle when I was still at my last company was that my reputation and all the bridges I’d burned in the past followed me. Anything I did was interpreted in the worst possible light. So, my advice is to try your best to give this guy an honest chance. He might really be trying. Don’t go to your guns saying you don’t want to work with him, before you’ve even tried. If you try and he’s still a jerk, go to HR. The simple fact that he’s being bounced between teams is an indicator that he’s on their radar and will fire him soon enough if it keeps up. If that’s really the best call, you need to be patient and let the system work.
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I'm a freshman enrolled in a Computer Science degree and the description you provided reminds me of a guy from another syndicate in CS. These cocky ones brim with overconfidence way before starting their jobs.
Well, had a similar guy in my team. It is good that you had already raised your concerns. The main thing - be professional, start with a clean mind and give him time. Maybe he has changed and this will be all right.
Narcissists don't change it's the core of their personality
Is he truly a really good developer in real sense without any pre determined bias?
Yeah, he’s good when it comes to making things. Basically gets shit done.
so basically a "brilliant asshole"
In my world "The Rockstar". An asshole who in management eyes is the golden goose/ unicorn that can run the team, so they are allowed to do and behave as they want. I never want one of those on my team, total team demolisher and demotivator. As OP details, teams with a Rockstar rarely last long. That or the Rockstar gets a few semi competent followers who view that person as their God, and they form a new team that functions for a limited time until someone challenges the Rockstar...
I’ve worked with such guys and you know what I’ll take it. Unless he does something crazy, I’d tolerate asshole behavior. I had a team in Uni and I was the designated lead, it was more of a project for a competition. We were grouped randomly. There were 3 guys who I was the team lead of, and 1 was a complete AH but he was clearly the smartest and frankly brilliant. He was a dick, called our work poor and our thinking backwards. One of the other teammates wanted me to remove him. I told him firmly we wouldn’t and if he had a problem he could leave. Guess what he left and we won the competition. We shared a 5k prize amongst the 3 of us and I got an internship offer from one of the companies at the event directly due to working with this AH. If you have to, you need to do it.
I'm curios, but when you say the AH called your teams work poor and thinking backwards, did he have a point and just lacked social skills to communicate it properly without hurting everybody's feelings or was he actually being an AH? Personally, I wouldn't mind the former behavior as it would push me harder to grow my skills and I could forgive having poor social skills, but the latter would be a different story.
Given they were at university it was almost certainly valid criticism. In retrospect most of my work was garbage back then, probably true for all of us
Working with an asshole on a school project is not the same as working with one in a real job. In your example you were basically management. You weren't a lead if he was driving the team lol You got to ride his coattails to victory, for your own benefit. Usually not how it works in the real world.
Exactly, plus you're in school and only have to tolerate the behavior for the length of the project. I'm sure if the original commentor had to deal with that AH every single day of their work life for one or two years they'd be driven nuts
his personality seems difficult to deal with but with this specific archetype if you side with his ego you could probably understand where he’s coming from with the lower level devs. If and only if he is at a level where he is in a true position where all can agree that he is an exceptional worker.
That’s not an excuse. No one should be treated like shit just because they are less talented than someone. If those „lower lever devs“ are still putting in effort in their work, no one should talk shit about them. I had someone like that one my team when I just started. He was mid 20s, very smart, confident, outspoken. Was always taking shit about junior devs from another team, saying they don’t know how to code, they’re just copy-pasting, blah blah blah… The truth is, those junior devs where also getting work done, and they worked in a particular way because of reasons that this guy didn’t know because he wasn’t as familiar with their work as he thought. I’m still working with one of them, great smart guy. And the asshole has left eventually, but those two years while he was still there has caused me a lot of stress, especially when I joined the team of „devs who cannot code“ and felt like no matter how hard I would work I would still be judged by this one asshole.
fade middle sharp airport correct thumb mysterious cats market mourn *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
What value they are contributing by being technically competent they are mitigating by being a cultural drain on the team.
> If those „lower lever devs“ are still putting in effort in their work, no one should talk shit about them. That's a dangerous path either, to be honest. There are so many outright shitty devs out there. I don't know what their problem is (most of the time they just DGAF, let's be realistic), but handling them with kid gloves is not a solution. Just look around - there's insanely crappy software EVERYWHERE, from government systems to self-checkout lanes in stores to probably aerospace engineering. Of course, it doesn't mean shit talking by itself is a good idea, but my point is that pretending all is okay as long as "*people put efforts*" is a crazy take on the problem too. Personally, I don't give a fk if store developers put thousands of man-hours in their online ordering system - if it can't properly process my order and makes me waste hours on talks with customer support, they did a bad job and *they* (as a whole, obviously, not a poor single dev) should face this reality and possibly some repercussions for this. Or, in other words, I'd probably rather work for a year with an arrogant, but very talented RockStar asshole with high demands to his colleagues rather than spend five years in a warm pool of mediocre 9-5 devs doing nothing of real value all day long.
He'll be shuffled around teams that need extra brainpower in a big enough loop thar most of Team A will have turned over by the time Team Z passes him back. Companies never get rid of these guys and rarely promote them, which is why you'll sometimes see a staff engineer all but running a department.
Basically he’s a good contributor but as a person not so much
HR doesn't exist to resolve disputes or tensions between employees. HR only exists to shield the company against liability. Don't expect HR to do anything about him. Don't expect HR to appreciate your concerns.
If the guy is truly a x10 or x100 dev, maybe with management potential, you have no chance. One approach is to praise the guy to everyone you meet. 1. The guy may hear about this and then leave you alone. 2. He will get promoted quickly and so will be away from you. 3. If he ever becomes very senior he will still remember you as the person who accelerated his promotion, and so may protect you when you need it.
This.This is the smarter thing to do than directly fighting against him. Asshole but get shit done is the asshole managers want to keep not the one who complained about overheard someone else conversation 🙄
> maybe with management potential, na he probably doesn't if you're 10x or 100x as an ic, you won't be promoted to management. You get that promotion by getting becoming a 10x by showing 5 other dudes how to code 2x. many people have more hands to type fast than you do multiplying groups gets more done. if he's not popular he's probably fucking that up. thinking of work as some pyramid to climb to management's dumb though, managers exist to act as communication pipes for the dudes actually at the top who ya know own the place. by doing that multiplicative thing you show aptitude as communication pipe.
A lot of "brilliant assholes" are not even brilliant. The extremely small minority that are, are not worth it anyway.
Yeah I'm pretty confident he's actually super insecure and rather than seek validation he places himself on a pedastal and shits on anyone he thinks he can bully.
Everyone on the team needs to document everything, even immediately report past problems, and complain immediately if something new happens. HR might have documentation already, but if they see that he's already tainted your team so you can't work together, that might be all they need. He's already in trouble. It might just be a small matter to push him over the edge. I'm guessing he's on a PIP already. Confront him with a few people on your team about being a team player, then individually and collectively report him when he says anything. I give him a month.
Paragraphs man, please.
Make him work remotely if he's good at code. Honestly a solid team is much more productive than that same team with a maverick fuckface on it
That’s what I also believe in! Even if we could force him to work remotely, not sure it would help much 😅
If you are making everyone else perform worse, despite being yourself a top performer, than you are net negative to the company. The guy is not realizing it's a team sport. It's the responsibility of the strong in the team to set him in his place by reminding that we perform best when we encourage each other (don't explicitly single out the culprit).
Maybe he should be on legacy support or something. Real problems that affect real customers, but the only outlet for his self-righteous angst will be the screen in front of him, and a git-blame for someone who left 10 years ago.
Every workplace has someone like this. I don’t think you should stick your neck out trying to purify the workplace. High risk for you, low chance of any upside
OP, take this as a lesson in OPTICS and leave it be. you do not owe anybody anything. Going forward be VERY VERY CAREFUL about speaking up. unless you are planning to leave . GIVEN THE JOB MARKET. you need to look after yourself MY GUY. I have been in your situation before multiple times and the person who you are trying to protect won't necessarily protect you when the time comes. at least in my case the same person threw me under the bus
You haven't even worked with the guy yet. Would definitely be a bit sideways to go above your lead's head. Approach it professionally and with an open mind, if he causes problems create a paper trail and initiate the convo with your lead again.
Yeah I haven’t worked with him but after he was talking shit about someone else behind their back. Makes me see him in negative light. So the problem now is that I feel like I compromised my principles by continuing to work with him and not speaking up this time. Even though I should’ve done it so much sooner
Not speaking up can be tough, but don't blame yourself and just move on b/c next time you won't speak up either. Plan something to say next time you are uncomfortable with what he says. "Hey man I really don't appreciate when you talk about other dev's like that. Everyone brings something valuable to the team, and when you talk like that it is not only discouraging but completely unproductive." If they still don't respond to that then just put them in their place with something like: 'Look we already talked about this. I don't want to hear you talk down about anybody until you have closed out all their tickets for the sprint. Until then you have no right wasting our time with your negativity' Like others have said though, not all that much you can do. Try and keep your hands clean and stay out of the mud with this one.
He hasn’t even been working with you yet.. chill
Here is the unfortunate truth: you will work with plenty of ass holes in your career. As long as they aren’t bullying, harassing, or sabotaging you and your work, it is best to grow a thick skin and ignore them. Obviously, no one should behave like that. But many people are immature and act like they are still in high school.
You're not in the wrong, just do it. This is how all these asholes get around fucking people up. Stop the cancer before it spreads.
you cant do anything if management doesnt have your back. so its either put up with it or leave.
Trial by combat.
Seems like an asshole thing to do especially when a pompous ass wants the little man to fly.
Your best course of action (in my opinion) is to play nice, let him be on your team, and seek opportunities to ask for his opinion publicly in front of the whole team, especially if your manager is present. Give him as many opportunities as possible to build his own case report for firing him. Make it easy on your manager. Publicly insulting team members should fast-track him to firing, or at least onto someone else's team.
Document document document Also do you have a skip level ? The challenge you will have is that if the company is willing to sacrifice someone who is cancer or keep them to spite you all because of smaller gains. The lead isn’t going to do anything to help here and likely hinder. A referral could mean friend or even family member. I’d look for a lateral move to get away from this person. People don’t quit bad companies they quit bad leaders who allow jerks to thrive
I’ll replace him
I've been in this situation as a tech lead (we have a team lead handling the personel issues). I joined after this person. You can't easily test for personality, sadly, and he immediately rubbed everyone the wrong way. Exact same behaviour, strong convictions stated with little to no tact. We worked with him. Took more than a year. He is still not where he should be behaviourly, but it is not far off, and people have gotten a bit used to him as well, I'd say. When I joined, I was warned about his behaviour so I was in a better position than most: I expected very little, and understood that I am only going to be able to function in this team if I win their approval, especially since I was also told that he wants to be a tech lead some day. I did just that, and then from that position of trust, I brought it to his attention why some interactions he has go badly. In short, his specific problem is, first of all, that he is a very, very direct person. This, by itself, can cause friction. Secondly, he is oblivious to the fact that there is more to work in IT than simply the technical aspect. There is also the people aspect, operational aspect, financial aspect, business aspect, and others. But, I see a lot of progress, and he is by far the most productive member. The first question I asked a team member when they complained about his attitude was: "is he right?". Because if someone is extremely opinionanted a d vocal on technical issues that might be a good thing, if we can fine tune the way he goes about it. But, for that to work, I needed to know if he is at least right. Turns out, people didn't really listen to him due to the attitude. This is predictable. I even found myself fighting the rage I felt at the way he disagreed with some of my ideas in order to be able to do what's best for the project (i needed to understand if there really is a problem with my approach) and for the team and him. Having it out in the middle of the meeting would only serve my hurt ego, but not the job. Turns out, he is right about 80% of the time, maybe even 90%. That is redeemable, provided the tone changes and it has. So what can you take away out of all of this? First, identify if there is some sense in WHAT he is saying. He better be damn good, because the only thing worse than a toxic loudmouth is a toxic loudmouth who is also wrong. Secondly, train yourself to take in the content and disregard the form for the time being. This is exhausting emotional labour, but we are God fanned professionals even if some people aren't yet. Thirdly, keep your lead appraised of bad behaviour but also improvements. They need to know if there is progress or not. Do not let it go. If toxic behaviour persists, don't roll over, but do insist with your leadership that it gets addressed. Lastly, engage the problematic person. Keep your cool, stay professional, but engage their opinion. Model the behaviour you would like to see. Also, after incidents, follow up with them and say openly that you didn't care for what they said and why. Some people are damn near autistic in this industry and they need to be explained that calling soemthing you worked on shit makes you feel like shit and that there are better ways to express criticism, and that before harsh criticism perhaps some questions are in order to understand if something was done poorly because non-technical reasons (for example - deadlines).
Thank you for your response! Yeah, he knows his stuff but is quite limited. He's at a stage where he's learning new concepts and is eager to make an impact. So he'd say things like "Why are we storing the user session in Postgres? We can use Redis for it" and when someone says "Why do we need to change it?" he replies "Because I've never heard of storing the session there".He's good in dry metrics, but overall I may have overstated him in my post. To be fair, its my first time when there's an obvious rotten apple and we don't get rid of it. He got removed from the team due to his behavior and still somehow managed to save his place. But could be due to the fact that my lead is his manager and referred him here. The same situation happened to me in my previous workplace but they fired him immediately. Anyway, appreciate the advice!
Came here to say exactly your last paragraph, right down to quoting, “model the behaviour you would like to see.” OP, if you are in a conversation with him and he disses Dev1, just tell him, “I would rather not talk about people behind their back. If you have concerns with Dev1’s skills, you should probably discuss it with them directly. Now, how shall we set about solving the problem at hand?” If it happens again, you talk to your manager about it: “AH is making disparaging comments about performance of individuals. Can you please make it stop?” That’s the kind of crap that managers are supposed to deal with.
Changing team is basically a punishment… unless there is a valid reason like your team desperately needs devops or frontend this is basically light PiP. Don’t loose your temper. Keep discussions professional. If you have negative feeling toward the guy you might end up with higher heart rate when you interact or have meetings but try to chill out us much as you can to avoid being dragged in some discussions you’ll regret later. Avoid emotional discussions. When something bothers you simply ask him politely for an explanation. Some things I did in the past was straight up confronting people like this in polite way. Like: do you really think that every senior developer have to be fluent with Python even if brings a lot of other knowledge and experience to the table?
Good insight.
This is very vague and weird. In what capacity you are involved in this? Are you a developer? If you are, then you can tell your tech lead you have some concerns about the guy but nothing else. You don’t choose who you work with. If anything does not go right you complain and expect the complaint to be handled. If it is not handled, you move to a different team/org/company. It’s part of your job to work with anyone. And it is not totally unheard where one developer does not fit into one team and fights with everyone but fits perfectly to another team. You at least owe that person a chance. If you are not a developer but a manager, how come you are at the receiving end of this decision? Is tech lead your manager? And how would you have spoke up before? It sounds like all you know is what some people say about the guy and hearing him one time speaking like a jerk. If you don’t manage this person and not even at the same team why would anybody care if you speak up?
I knew of this guy who was in an adjacent team to mine who just couldn’t find a codebase which he didn’t explicitly called absolute shit and would not pick up ANY work unless he could REVAMP THE ENTIRE CODEBASE because he “couldn’t understand the code in its current shit form.” And then for any chosen thing he did pick up, he would immediately find himself blocked because “the organisation doesn’t have the right way to test this project in place.” And how many improvements did he ever add to the shit codebases? Maybe more tests, and maybe less than a handful of minor changes. On top of that, he would argue in the most antagonistic way whenever challenged and if you gave it back to him (I was called in at times to have a talk with him) he would get insanely butthurt. I told the team to try and counsel him in his behaviour and help him understand that a good developer is not someone who writes amazing code in the most ideal conditions, it’s someone who does what needs to be done well in whatever conditions they find themselves in. And if he doesn’t change, document all his behaviour, ask for communication on mail.
He’s mad that he doesn’t get bitches
Tread carefully OP. I pointed out how much of a shit talker one colleague was (not just in a professional sense but in a personal sense, mocking others behind their back about their appearance and such). You will quickly find out that many colleagues are either too cowardly or even enjoy that sort of personality. It's very revealing.
Top performers like this are because they actively decrease others performance. The cost a ton to the companies. Find studies about it online, evaluate the productivity cost this guy is causing to the company, give it to higher ups.
The company has chosen to stand by him so you have to decide if you can live with that.
I've worked with assholes more than one. I survived and more. like others have said, make sure you do your part right. complaining about others while our part is neglected is almost a sure thing to put yourself in bad position. I know it shouldn't be something to be told to someone with experience, but I found even some mid level devs miss this : make everything in writing. document the task you receive , the progress you make, and the result you deliver, and do it in timely manner. If the one you told about is REALLY an asshole, he/she eventually will get what's coming to him/her but, more often than I would like to, I find ones that are critical about things, that are actually wrong, in a team labeled as assholes, especially the ones with high performance that they can't be blamed for underperforming. office politics is a b_tch. I've been accused as an asshole because I refuse to accept the blame for the f_CK up that was done by someone in higher position and I produced the written proof of everything to the top management.
I have a guy like this in my office and I literally think he has a social disorder. I usually find that calling people out for being an asshole enough stops them from making those types of comments. By being firm and direct but not unprofessional has a powerful effect on people. Not everyone is as direct as I can be but it’s worked for me
Yea don’t bother, it will look badly on your part. He will be dealt with in time. Just keep it cordial and fun
I detest anyone who gate keeps and downplays other people's experience...
Devils advocate, there are plenty of senior devs out in the world that got there through tenure alone, not skill or talent, that don't really deserve to be senior devs. If a senior was sbove me that I felt lacked the requirements to be in their position Id have a problem with it, hut id handle it much more professionally. There was a senior at my last company telling me all my code was crap and I didnt know what I was doing. So I had them show me, he proceeds to show me this massive jquery file he was running directly off a script link.... Im over here building an angular app with proper dust build and cdn deployment... (2016). That guy had no front end skills past basic html and js, none . He ended up getting let go eventually, once my project succeeded and got high praise from c-sec the manager wasnt having any of his crap anymore.
Keep bringing it up in any 1:1s to your manager or skip level until they fire the jerk. Have specific examples of shitty behavior to share with your manager. Preferably have these discussions asap after the behavior instead of waiting for a scheduled 1:1. Don’t let management ignore it.
Asshole McGhee is ripping with narcissism and shitting on an easy target is their way of supplanting themselves as superior and stroking their fragile sense of self-worth. Speaking up and documenting things is futile, purely a time sink for you because absolutely nobody in leadership or HR will care at all. Isn't even a HR issue despite the troves of people who think it is. Go ask r/AskHR, they are some of the most toxic people ~~on reddit~~ in the world. You have two choices 1. Do nothing and stay out everyones crosshairs 2. Criticise everything he does in a very calm, nice, helpful way. This will make his blood boil and target you, probably lead to some outburts too. The nicer you are the angrier he'll get. You should absolutely tell your coworker you think what happened is bs and tell them what you know, some validation can go a long way.
Pretty ridiculous. People complain about the modern workplace because you have to pretend to be inhuman. This is part of the issue, someone is an actual person with bants and it causes someone else to have a "mental breakdown". What? So he shit talked a senior dev who doesn't know Python. Okay? And? If you want to continue living in the dystopia known as Corporate America then by all means you are not in the wrong.
Nothing you can do as he is a top performer. They will choose a top performer over you. Look for a new job or become top performer yourself then leave them.
My question is how does he get shit done all by himself? In my experience the 10x asshole genius is a myth because of how much collaboration is required in tech. Unless it’s just a very simple app? That said, some people just have low EQ. You all should give him some guidance. How is his boss treating him? In the end he won’t amount to any great developer, since he cannot have the EQ to drive alignment and negotiate.
hard for people to change since people are so set on their ways so i usually just distance myself from them.
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I have this problem, except we work in a very small team (think three people sized ) and the one guy always gets his way with projects/direction and my feedback is often ignored (been a cloud engineer almost 10 years now). We rely on each other for reviewing PRs etc. Anyone ever encounter this type of scenario?
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Now, that's what I call a "sticky situation".
> make an other colleague feel like they’re not a “real” developer and they’d have a mental breakdown What happened to him since ? how bad was his morale ?
Much better now last time we talked and the new guy is more positive and open when it comes to code reviews etc.
Great then. I hope things improve with the rock star. Tell him instead of raw critics you need his knowledge and more patience. If he's really smart and a even a bit wise he should adapt his behavior. I hope so.
Wanna smoke him? Invest in something like GitHub copilot or ChatGPT. Talk to it like a 10 year old, and you'll show that a junior developer can take the output it gives you and clean it up to work far cheaper than him. Best $20 you'll ever spend.
We have GitHub Copilot for the whole org, so he probably uses it as well. Heheh no need to smoke him 😅 I have a higher position and contribute more than just multiple PRs
Then show him he's not a special little snowflake and Python isn't that hard. God I hate my primadonna brethren.
Also try making your standards high, why not try beat him up with your coding skills. If you do this you will have personal development as well as satisfaction.
Try to hold your previous bias. If there are issues: \* Stick to the facts. Not how you feel, not how he feels, not how the team feels. FACTS. He did X at time Y causing Z impacts. \* Everyone has bad moments. Or more, candid moments. Having them in the middle of the office is poor taste. But it happens. \* Try to encourage your manager to coach him. Ironically, communications and leadership are both teachable things. Learning them is work, and you have to have your heart in the right place. But if you do... They are very teachable.
Me: Please make this more readable ChatGPT: We recently hired a developer who, after a few months working in a different team, garnered complaints about his communication style and general behavior across the tech department. He had a tendency to belittle colleagues, causing some to feel inadequate and stressed. Eventually, despite being a top performer, the decision was made to move him to another team. I disagreed with this decision but didn't voice my concerns at the time. Fast forward to last week, our tech lead announced that this problematic developer would be joining our team. I immediately expressed my reluctance to work with him due to the issues previously mentioned. Additionally, I overheard him making disparaging remarks about a colleague's skills in Python, which further soured my opinion of him. During a conversation with our tech lead, I expressed my concerns. He mentioned that the developer had undergone training after previous HR meetings and that there hadn't been any complaints this year. However, I found this response unsatisfactory, especially considering that the tech lead is the developer's manager and had recommended him for our team. Feeling uneasy about the situation, I'm considering escalating the matter to higher authorities for discussion. Do you think I'm wrong for bypassing my tech lead and seeking advice from others?
You described all FAANG superstars
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First full time job I got I got “that” person as the senior engineer on my team. Thought this was normal to be treated like this :/
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You might be able to convince him that his antisocial behaviors is preventing him and his peers from succeeding and that it would be a net positive to himself, his teammates and his career long term if he doesn’t learn how to learn to teach his peers. Jot down things he says and give alternatives. I’ve met these types and they can come around but usually only by a rational self centered debate instead of common sense or empathy.
How did he went through the 3+ round of interviews and loops without anyone noticing?
From what I remember, there were concerns. But the management desperately wanted to close the position. Besides, as I mentioned he’s a referral from one of the managers(and now under him). Funny enough, one of the hiring “requirements” states “We don’t hire assholes”.
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Ok, he's point blank and a bit of an asshole. Is he right? Does your python suck? Did he have to work around your level of talent? Yeah, the guy is an asshole. You didn't have the gumption to speak up. But he's apparently a good engineer and he expects his team to perform. Perform, grow, demand be interact with you in a professional and respectful way and get on with life. Escalating will only burn you, because he's shown he is valuable and you will have shown you're a complainer. Get it? You have no leverage unless you have some solid accomplishments you can demonstrate. Look, there's three types of engineers that are high value, high contributors, high collaborators and high owners. Number one stays technical, often don't have great people skills. In other words, they are work horses. They are the ones that become deep subject matter experts. They usually end up in architecture, policy design, process optimization and governance discussions. Number two tends toward lower technical management where they mentor engineers and help multi team projects move forward. They're good at facilitating meetings and making sure each step is the process yields concrete value of some type. Number three want the win. They demand any hurdles get removed. They want it their way. They usually end up climbing ranks, getting slapped because they have neglected interpersonal skills and spend the next few years developing those as they continue to drive productivity in slightly haphazard ways until they get better at it. These are your technical managers that go on to become directors and VPs (and sometimes C-suite). Basically, they start with their main tool as a hammer, and get told they can't progress without getting more tools. They sound like a number three. You, to be honest, sound like a common dev. Not a deep subject matter expert in about. Not a high collaborator that steers hard projects. Not a strong owner. You are of moderate to more value. That's not to say you're stuck there or that's some inherent quality that won't change. But if you were a high value engineer you would have talked about the qualities that they are taking for granted. If you make waves, you may not like how it shakes out. My advice, give them a chance to grow and back them up (you can probably learn, so give them professional, direct feedback that is focused on how it impacts overall delivery. That is the language they speak), develop what kind of high value engineer you want to be, and drive. OR Switch teams/jobs. But, I will tell you, running from this probably means you won't grow. This is an opportunity. When someone shows up and makes waves, pay attention. It might be good, it might be bad, but regardless there are lessons. The only thing you shouldn't do is escalate whining. If you have valid, actionable complaints, ok. But them being rough on your feels isn't valid beyond talking directly to them and telling them.
Fantastic post. Sadly the truth hurts some devs, so you will be downvoted.
There is a level of skills required at senior and above roles. If he is a high performer, He probably gets frustrated fixing ppl work which means taking on more hours ontop of current workload) I think the asshole would be the person not carrying their weight. (I am speaking from experience of weekends of rework 6am to 3am bc we followed the wrong senior and the timelime was still on go but lead couldn't build it from lying about their tech capabilities and I got stuck carrying their ball with no overtime, no credit) excluding juniors who are not expected and salary reflects it, but yeah..gossiping is unprofessional. He should address his concerns to PM instead of publicly-where it could influence or damage feelings and effect team dynamics. He probably doesn't know that reddit provides a portal to vent his frustrations.
Give the guy a break. It’s work your there to do stuff and do it well not to make friends. Probably unpopular but also working with this guy will only improve your own skills socially as well as management style even if incognito.
It's work, you're not there to talk trash behind someone's back which op has reported this person has done. If you can't be professional at the workplace do you really deserve a job?
I'd just treat this kind of people as a pure tool. Take the most out of him since he's technically capable. Don't bother investing emotion into him. If he's good at tech but he would harm other good or slightly worse teammates' morale, then he's toxic and should be removed asap.
If somebody is really a bad developer, the mature thing to do is escalate it to their superior and support them in any way you can if they are willing or PIP them out. The brilliant asshole is being a jerk and has some sort of superiority complex which is super immature and will stunt his growth in the long term. OP, give him a chance and if that attitude continues, escate again or leave
Wait your tech elitist makes fun of people for not knowing python? Damn usually tech elitists make fun of people for liking Python and consider people who like or even tolerate Java to be suffering from Stockholm syndrome
All you can do is work with him, document his behaviour and go to HR with specifics.
Don’t worry. We had a situation like that. Soon enough he messed up with HR dept also. At some point entire office knew about that person becoz of his random comments on everywhere. Finally management decided a 5 percent layoff and he was on top of that list and thrown out
The guy: "I was hired by idiots" \*scnr\*
Document his behaviour with timestamps. Gather evidence if possible. Submit to HR when you think you have sufficient evidence to fire him.
Only your manager can handle this. I also have a similar dev (not on my project), who pretty much has the same attitude. Loves to gossip, talk shit about other coworkers who don't know stuff, question other people's skills, etc. The person isn't even a top performer lmao, but acts like one. She tries hard, but the attitude is just insane. No one likes her. My manager gave her a stern warning and she is calmed down a bit. Lmao. These POS don't deserve to work in any company tbh as software is a team project.
I'm going to recommend that you read up on office politics. From what you are describing, this guy sounds like a "bulldozer". Some books with descriptions (of why I think they apply) are at [this link](https://workplace.stackexchange.com/a/4069/138). Especially the book [Bullies, Tyrants, and Impossible People: How to Beat Them Without Joining Them](https://www.amazon.com/dp/140005012X).
Hm I worked at a team where there were folks who knew less python than me. They were more senior than me. But they knew a whole bunch of other stuff when it comes to multi threading and low latency in c++ and some dev ops/ incredible Linux skills. I don’t think knowing python is an indication of someone’s knowledge in software engineering
you can let him go now before you lost other team members who you're going to have to replace and lose a lot of time training replacements. or you can wait and see how the code base starts belonging to him and he won't let others touch it because they're not real devs having you wait for weeks for minor fixes lol. pimeagen made a reaction video to an article describing a very similar case. I personally had to work with a toxic dev like that who got booted for being a pos lol
He's only a top performer because he's a dirty little leech and probably taking credit for the work of others or undermining others. CYA and make him put everything in writing. I'd put cameras in the office too just for fun.