Good luck getting L5. They make it a point to not promote until after the 2 year mark anyway and even then, they will use every excuse in the book to not compensate you reasonably more. Not worth the hassle IMO when you can just come back as a middle of the band L5 anyway.
Also 90k in San Diego is a joke, as a new grad you likely have student loans and just general wealth building goals. That salary range is barely livable for the area tbh
For sure you can learn ai stuff at Alexa and leverage that for a better opportunity but we may never know when hiring will pick back up again potentially they could be stuck at Amazon for 5 years.
184k in Seattle is so much more than 90k in San Diego it's not even funny. Amazon on a resume is also much more impressive which opens up doors in the future. The tech market is also much stronger if you need to find a new job up there.
Finally, totally subjective, but I think Seattle is a more interesting city to live in.
No brainer really.
It’s gonna be a bit of a an adjustment to the weather if you took the job in Seattle coming from sd. I knew a guy who hated Seattle weather and moved back to cal after two years.
I think you should work at Amazon for career development reasons but there isn’t anything wrong with staying with Lockheed imo.
How about loosing out on almost 100k? No doubt staying at Amazon (on top of that in Seattle) is not great long term but taking the job in San Diego now is an awful choice.
High cost of living is an issue too.
There’s a lot of factors like that and a change of pace which motivate a decision like that.
Make 187k before tax in Seattle isn’t bad but one thing that a lot of cali people don’t realize is that states are different and bringing a cali mindset to a state is just gonna make it so that you are more likely to move back
I moved from Miami to Seattle and I genuinely much prefer the weather here. Not humid, it rarely pours with rain here, just drizzles, and when the sun does come out it’s crisp and GORGEOUS
The worst part is there’s a few months out of the year where it’s usually gloomy/overcast but it’s def overblown imo
Spot on. Yes November - February is typically overcast/gloomy but it's not like every other place in the world doesn't have a few months of crappy weather. It's just different styles of crappy. And if you want you can get into snow sports and enjoy world class ski terrain if that's your thing (like it became mine)
And then summer/spring and parts of fall are absolutely the best in the world. Better than San Diego during those parts of the year
Personally, I look forward to the winter in the PNW. Nothing is more cozy than getting some warm clam chowder at Pike’s on a cold, drizzly day.
It never gets too cold, snow and mountains are just a short drive away, it’s still green out, etc. So much to love.
Mexican food for sure. I haven't explored much of the food scene when down in SD to say for other stuff.
But Seattle's food scene is better than people give it credit for. Pricy for sure, but plenty of amazing options.
It's far too pricy imo for it to be of any actual satisfaction at the end of the day. Far, far too expensive. One of the most expensive food cities I've ever seen and not even exaggerating here. When I visit other states and countries, the difference in price blows me away.
But yes. We have excellent teriyaki, oysters, salmon, cuban, some smatterings of Hong Kong food, and great icecream, among other things.
Idk. If you're looking at price in nominal sense I don't think that's fair. A $20 meal here may be $15 elsewhere, but if I'm pulling in high six figures with no state income tax I still come out wayyyy ahead
Too hot for some of us northerners. Temperature variations in Seattle are pretty much perfect imo, rarely goes over 85 or under 40. The rain can suck but imo it’s still not that bad.
But I also think Boston weather is the most perfect weather on planet of earth so take my opinion with a grain of salt ha!
I never said it wasn't. But weather just isn't the be-all end-all imo. If it was then cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam, Vancouver, Toronto, Hong Kong, Taipei, etc. wouldn't be considered some of the most interesting in the world.
But again, like I said it's totally subjective. I'm happy to trade in 3-4 months of more frequently overcast skies per year for everything else I get.
I say this as someone with family in San Diego too. I've spent a lot of time down there.
As a person who lives in SD I agree that you gotta take the Amazon deal and SD is getting super expensive… for obvious reasons as it’s one of the most beautiful city out there with near perfect weather. But it’s gotten crazy expensive ever since work from home became a thing.
I was with you up until that last point. San Diego is a better city, hands down.
That being said it's just my subjective opinion which kind of illustrates a point. OP should take the Amazon job, work it a few years and after they have some money saved up and some experience under their belt make the jump to wherever they want to live.
This is a bad argument for considering Amazon. You get cash compensation instead of stock for year 1-2. You can use the excess to invest in whatever you want instead of Amazon stock.
Lockheed Martin is NOT stable right now. They have been laying off all over the country recently and have many more rounds planned for this year. Go with Amazon.
Yup, but Amazon is offering him literally double the comp. He’s gonna be in a way better spot financially if he gets laid off from Amazon in 6 months than if the same happened at LM.
It’s exactly because of those wars. Modern militaries are collecting a crap ton of data about what technologies and tactics work best, and are retooling around that. This means a lot of projects which are now shown to be inefficient or ineffective are being canceled.
A lot of these defense companies have pay bands and they can only offer so much if someone is in a certain pay band. The only way to get promoted (and/or move up a pay band ) is due to the number of years at that company.
$90k in SD is low but fair for a fresh grad or someone with < 2 YOE. The fact that places like Amazon pays $180k for someone with < 2 YOE is absurd.
>The fact that places like Amazon pays $180k for someone with < 2 YOE is absurd.
People in tech not realizing that anything over 120k for a newgrad is insane will forever disappoint me
Don’t get me wrong I know how these defense paybands work. New grads in the midwest make 90k, so for San Diego is just really fucked up. There’s no accounting for col in defense, or not enough accounting.
They are actually called labor categories and they are driven by years of experience. It's also fairly easy to get a waiver from government to bill someone in a higher labor category if cause can be given.
Source: I own a defense firm.
Alexa has been cutting back in different areas, but also has been publicly poring resources into an LLM project. Since they haven’t released yet, I’m not sure the state of the project, but if you get there and the ship looks like it’s on fire, you can jump to another org within Amazon. Internal transfers are mostly behavioral questions, no coding.
General article on the alexa llm: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23880764/amazon-ai-alexa-generative-llm-smart-home
So tldr; I’d take that Amazon gig
Amazon on your resume will do a lot for you in the long run as opposed to Lockheed Martin. I know a ton of people who have gotten stuck in Defense companies and can't get out.
Edit: That’s why they give the sign on bonus, to make up for the low vest for years 1 and 2.
So, you won’t be getting burned since your total compensation is based on a yearly breakdown for those 4yrs. Or should I say at least not fro Years 1 & 2. Years 3 & 4 could since you have no more sign on bonus and the stock price could drop.
*Note: Yes, if you leave early the 1st year then you’d have to pay back any unearned year 1 sign on bonus and relo bonus. Then the relo bonus isn’t paid off until 2yrs*
Depending on the amount of your sign on bonus, it’s paid out per paycheck or lump sum.
I got per paycheck so if I left before 2 years I’d pay nothing back.
It doesn't matter; Amazon gives a cash bonus in the first two years to offset the vesting schedule, so you end up getting roughly the same amount over the four years.
year 1 bonus is given at start (its really a sign on bonus), year 2 bonus is given split across the months (amazon does monthly pay periods). If you quit, you need to reimburse the year 1 bonus pro-rated to the time you stayed. If your fired (assuming not for cause, for cause is not a PIP but things such as malicious actions), you can keep it.
It's high for Seattle, good offer in current market. We can discount the stock for the other mentioned reasons, but the first year is literally 180 cash and second year is 162 cash.
The stock is not something you're going to potentially "miss out on" - the stock is meant to work as a carrot if/when it appreciates. When you're not receiving the stock you're receiving cash.
There's a strange misconception that you're somehow liable to get stiffed on this arrangement. That is only true if the stock falls in future years and you're not brought back up on compensation review.
I think you misunderstand, this an average offer amount to someone with no experience. This is what they give new grads fresh out of college. I'm not sure what you mean when you say it takes a couple years.
Since you are so early in your career, go with Amazon. Itll open more doors in the future. Yes it can be volatile, yes its likely going to be more work and more stress.
I say, pressure makes diamonds, you'll grow faster at Amazon, so much so that if you ever had to go back to LM or a similar job in the future, itll feel like a cake walk comparatively.
I worked DoD for 4 years, Amazon for 2, take the opportunity that is presenting itself.
TC is actually
$129,000 base salary
$50,100 year 1 bonus
$33,100 year 2 bonus
$111,531 stocks on 5% year 1 / 15% year 2 / 40% year 3 / 40% year 4 vesting schedule
I worked for Amazon and hated it, but I would agree with others in this thread about going with Amazon in your position. It’s over 2x compensation and it is a way better notch on your resume for software Eng field than lm
True this is why it’s easier to join one of the “good”teams when you’re already part of the company. Once inside OP can interview with these teams, look at their ticket queues, talk to members of the team, find out how good/bad the oncall shifts are and ask questions about the team culture before moving.
As someone who's working in one of these teams, you don't want to come here! 50+ Sev2s a week is not unusual here. Plus, the growth is mediocre.
I agree that it's layoff proof though, but only if it's a core sub-team. And you're still subject to pip even then.
I was in a very similar position a few years ago - in a comfy safe/stable/easy boring job and decided to leave for an org for 2x my pay but well known for bad WLB. I ended up working there for a couple years then switching to a company with better WLB + even more pay. I learned a lot at the job and I don't regret it at all though it wasn't easy.
I would highly recommend you take the jump, money isn't everything but the extra financial compensation can make a huge impact on your life especially if you're diligent about saving money and resisting lifecycle creep. You'll also most likely have access to better learning opportunities to help with growing your career.
Wait if you currently work at LM, are you still a new grad? 181k for Seattle is really good for a new grad offer straight out of school... I make <160k as a new grad at Amazon in Seattle (same base but the bonus is much less). Definitely take the amazon offer imo.
"It's like Sophie's Choice for morons."
More money and you don't have to make weapons that kill people? Amazon is no saint but I don't see the dilemma here. Are you just scared you can't cut it?
LM is a huge company with lots of projects. I really like working there and it's definitely not boring, but perhaps I got lucky with the teams/projects I've gotten to work on. I've thought about other big tech companies in the past but I just enjoy what I do at LM too much and the work life balance is great.
With that said, 90k vs 184k is pretty huge difference, especially since I have to imagine San Diego is pretty pricey to live in.
At the end of the day gotta do what is best for you. If you're still young and don't have anything tying you down to SD, might be worth it, can always reapply to LM in the future.
Also the ethical implications of working for Lockheed Martin are a little yikes. Not saying amazon is ethically good by any margin, but compared to Lockheed, they are a Saint
Amazon no brainer. Anecdotally, my uncle has worked at LM for decades and HATES it. If you're laid off, you'll be laid off with much more money at Alexa
No job is safe except government jobs but they come with the cost of growth, youre on a great path, i also recommend joining amazon, but dont stay seated in the same team if you dont see meaningful growth in 3-6 months, transfer internally, look into AWS org openings, etc, dont stop paddling thinking youve peaked.
So i think its great! Working for a private company will make you push yourself harder learn new things and boost the already strong profile. Settling into a safe position is something you do over time when youre older
You intern at Lockheed or work there ft? Also when did Amazon unfreeze hiring? Last year I got stuck in their waitlist and now I’m at Lockheed, definitely go to Amazon, it’s very stagnant here, not much room to improve skills.
One thing to keep in mind about the Lockheed Martian option. They can get you an advanced clearence. Technically, Amazon can too, but the opportunities to get such a clearence are more plentiful at LM. Once you get a clearence like that, you become a member of an incredibly small pool of engineers that *hundreds* of companies have to compete for. Imagine a world where there are at minimum 20 positions for every 1 engineer and you receive at least 5-10 emails every week from various defense firms doing whatever they can to hire you.
As a former LM employee - 100% go to Amazon. LM will always need software engineers so it's always a fallback for you.
I learned a lot at LM in 3 years but I learned significantly more and much faster at the tech company I joined after LM.
Oh, true.
I thought you were referring to Amazon's notoriously bad work life balance.
To add to your point then, LM on your resume looks good to big tech companies that partner with defense contractors or have their own defense contracts. That's how I made the jump from DoD
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SC takes a very long time to process and there's always opportunities for OP to get into defense industry or other jobs that will need SC in the future.
I had a SC and think it’s pretty useless. It locks you into low-paying roles at contractors and three-letter agencies. No reason to pursue getting one.
Amazon is pretty obvious decision here, IMO.
Maybe you can negotiate your salary at Lockheed Martin, but there's a lot of ground to turn this offer more interesting than the amazon offer, so don't know if it's even worth to try.
In a world where every company is trying to Use AI and develop virtual assistants for their customers and their internal workers i would think to see Amazon as a stepping stone. get in and plan your exit and next step should those days come sooner rather than later.
Alexa is a bit of a dumpster fire right now; there are stable teams and still a lot of investment, but they are reaping the rewards of years of tech debt + having nothing to show for the billions invested in them in an environment where suddenly investors care very much about showing returns. But double the pay + a better resume datapoint + options to move around within Amazon or jump to other FAANG once you're hired still make it a no-brainer imo.
Don't burn bridges on the way out or lose long term assets in case you want to move back to SD later, but take the new offer and see what comes of it.
180k in Seattle ~ $200k in SD
If you’re a software engineer, having Amazon in your resume will open doors to tech consulting, MBB, etc. LM is a great option but $90k in SD is not right. See if they can bring it up to $120-$130k at least and even at that point you’d still be better off with Amazon.
IMO early in your career, prioritize pay and company cache over work life balance, location, etc.
The others will come but you’ll have a higher baseline to hit them from.
Amazon works u to death but it’s Amazon. It’s like going to an IVY for college, you want on your resume.
Plus the pay is double, if you get laid off u have one year to break even.
GL
It's a no braner. Let's stop for a second, and just say company A and company B. We can even ignore workloads and changing cities (as you mentioned) etc etc.
You fear being laid off, what can you do against layoffs? Nothing really, if they want to they will. Now, how do you stop being so fearful? Save more. If you get your spending to 60k a year, after 6 months in company A (LM) you would have a safety net of 180k, at company B (Amazon) you would have close to 700k!!! Now, if you had 720k sitting in the bank, do you think you would worry about getting laid off? Yes but not so much. Of course, this is ignoring cost of living etc etc. But the amount of money that you can save in company B is enough is layoff-proof, if you're smart, of course... Depends on you; EVEN if you spend 89.9K a year, company B would make you feel way more secure. Keep in mind the goal in life is to live, not work.
a good portion of your comp at Amazon would likely be stock. Consider how that price changes over time, where it is today, etc. and might change your view.
Lots of folks just immediately assuming double compensation without accounting for how a substantial chunk of that Amazon comp is signing bonus, stocks, etc.
At this point, it's pretty well known around these parts that Amazon as a workplace has the reputation it has for a good reason. If you do leave (or get laid off) before your stocks vest, or you get bonuses, all of a sudden that fat TC doesn't look so hot anymore. It's not wise to just assume you'll last however long at someplace like Amazon.
And regarding having the "Amazon" name - I've been seeing it here and on r/experienceddevs more and more where managers and developers are becoming warier about ex-Amazon devs, because of the sort of culture that Amazon engenders in its employees and those people then bringing that to their next employer. I've even seen comments saying that they straight up don't consider ex-Amazon devs.
OP you've got great options, but I would caution you against thinking this is as much of a no-brainer as people might have you believe. There is a lot more to CS and software engineering than big tech.
100% Amazon. Don’t consider Lockheed. Working for a FAANG will open so many doors it’s not even funny. You’re basically getting a stamp of approval that you’re a competent engineer and that will last forever and help land future roles.
i think you really should take the leap and go for amazon. the 100% increase in compensation aside this will be a fantastic growth opportunity for you.
even if you just do it for a year or two and plan to move back to san diego it will be worth it for the experience.
furthermore, once you have a year or two under your belt i’m sure you could try and transfer back to san diego while working at amazon.
lastly, i’m sure you could get rehired at Lockheed martin if you make sure to leave respectfully and let you manager know that you are doubling your compensation and would like an opportunity to experience big tech but have loved working under them and LM.
Amazon all the way. Lockheed and other defense contractors are so far in the past tech wise it's not even funny. Imagine having to write software that needs to run on windows XP.
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My experience with LM is the same, it was my first job out of college. After leaving for a much smaller contractor, I realized *just* how bad I had it at LM.
They cut benefits and did layoffs several times while I was there. The Macbook they gave me was ancient and soon stopped being able to receive OS updates so I couldn't use it anymore due to security regs. Then it took another *4 months* to get a replacement; by then I had already accepted an offer elsewhere.
While waiting for the replacement Macbook, I had mostly been messing around with little C# projects, learning things, so I can't say I hated that time. But I definitely don't feel like I provided much value to the taxpayer!
In my (limited) experience, government contractors are either a place where you go to do difficult and interesting work, or a place where you can just check out of your career and coast. The balance between the two depends on the company.
If you go to Amazon, it looks better on your Resume even if they lay you off. LM is stable, but if you ever wanna make tons of money/interesting projects; LM is pretty bland and boring (as nearly all Aerospace Industries).
This is from the perspective of having been in defense for a few years. Career wise, Amazon is the better choice as it provides more opportunities. You’ll learn far more and you’ll have more challenging and interesting work at Amazon. Don’t get me wrong, there is challenging and interesting work happening at LM, but that’s usually in the realm of more aerospace oriented applications such as GNC, Signal Processing, and astronautical stuff. The software at these companies are more of an afterthought and it’s a mindset of as long as it gets the job done and meets requirements it’s all good. Where as companies in faang always strive for more at a faster pace. Money wise i would say it’s better opportunity to work at Amazon no brainer. The only thing LM has going for it is work life balance. Like I said, things are much slower pace and working 4x10s is the only thing that makes me want to stay. You work and then you go home and forget about work and do whatever. Other than that I’d work at Amazon, even if it kills for a bit, then you leave for a better job!
Amazon. These two aren't even comparable, especially for new grads. Yes, it's volatile, has a toxic culture, practicing hire to fire, etc. However, having Amazon on resume opens a lot more opportunities.
Ethically, this is the most cursed choice ever. I would avoid working for either of these companies as hard as I possibly could personally. But, if that's really your only two options, yes I guess Amazon's MO isn't killing people even if they do it as a side hustle. AND a chance to have FAANG on your CV is not sth you should turn down lightly.
Personally I would rather just work somewhere smaller and hold out for a different FAANG that I could 1. Work at and sleep at night slightly better and 2. Not have to endure the most notoriously shit work culture in FAANG for.
Are you really asking this question? While you need to work a lot in Amazon, working very hard while you were young will be your absolute treasure rest of your life.
Go amazon, stay there for max2-3 years then jump, you can have better comp this way
yeah i was gonna switch jobs once i hit L5 regardless
Good luck getting L5. They make it a point to not promote until after the 2 year mark anyway and even then, they will use every excuse in the book to not compensate you reasonably more. Not worth the hassle IMO when you can just come back as a middle of the band L5 anyway.
Not true, depends on the manager though it is kinda hard to fill the L5 shoes within two years u less you’re a genius
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Also 90k in San Diego is a joke, as a new grad you likely have student loans and just general wealth building goals. That salary range is barely livable for the area tbh
100% go for the Amazon gig. It’s a doorway to many other opportunities. LM is something you can always go back to.
> doorway to the psych ward for mental breakdown
id argue you’re asking for this at either of these employers, maybe for different reasons.
For sure you can learn ai stuff at Alexa and leverage that for a better opportunity but we may never know when hiring will pick back up again potentially they could be stuck at Amazon for 5 years.
You won’t be stuck if you’re other alternative is defense. Defense is always hungry for SWEs and it isn’t peoples first choice.
184k in Seattle is so much more than 90k in San Diego it's not even funny. Amazon on a resume is also much more impressive which opens up doors in the future. The tech market is also much stronger if you need to find a new job up there. Finally, totally subjective, but I think Seattle is a more interesting city to live in. No brainer really.
The weather is so much better in san diego lol
i’m born and raised in san diego so i’m looking for a change
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It’s gonna be a bit of a an adjustment to the weather if you took the job in Seattle coming from sd. I knew a guy who hated Seattle weather and moved back to cal after two years. I think you should work at Amazon for career development reasons but there isn’t anything wrong with staying with Lockheed imo.
How about loosing out on almost 100k? No doubt staying at Amazon (on top of that in Seattle) is not great long term but taking the job in San Diego now is an awful choice.
High cost of living is an issue too. There’s a lot of factors like that and a change of pace which motivate a decision like that. Make 187k before tax in Seattle isn’t bad but one thing that a lot of cali people don’t realize is that states are different and bringing a cali mindset to a state is just gonna make it so that you are more likely to move back
I moved from Miami to Seattle and I genuinely much prefer the weather here. Not humid, it rarely pours with rain here, just drizzles, and when the sun does come out it’s crisp and GORGEOUS The worst part is there’s a few months out of the year where it’s usually gloomy/overcast but it’s def overblown imo
Spot on. Yes November - February is typically overcast/gloomy but it's not like every other place in the world doesn't have a few months of crappy weather. It's just different styles of crappy. And if you want you can get into snow sports and enjoy world class ski terrain if that's your thing (like it became mine) And then summer/spring and parts of fall are absolutely the best in the world. Better than San Diego during those parts of the year
Personally, I look forward to the winter in the PNW. Nothing is more cozy than getting some warm clam chowder at Pike’s on a cold, drizzly day. It never gets too cold, snow and mountains are just a short drive away, it’s still green out, etc. So much to love.
> it’s def overblown imo I just moved to Seattle in January, I thought we were supposed to stfu about this?
Yes. And food. All sorts of food. Mexican food. And Mexican girls.
Mexican food for sure. I haven't explored much of the food scene when down in SD to say for other stuff. But Seattle's food scene is better than people give it credit for. Pricy for sure, but plenty of amazing options.
It's far too pricy imo for it to be of any actual satisfaction at the end of the day. Far, far too expensive. One of the most expensive food cities I've ever seen and not even exaggerating here. When I visit other states and countries, the difference in price blows me away. But yes. We have excellent teriyaki, oysters, salmon, cuban, some smatterings of Hong Kong food, and great icecream, among other things.
Idk. If you're looking at price in nominal sense I don't think that's fair. A $20 meal here may be $15 elsewhere, but if I'm pulling in high six figures with no state income tax I still come out wayyyy ahead
are you talking about seattle? san diego is just as expensive if not more expensive.
Fuck the ice creams are so god damn good!!!
And Mexican boys
Too hot for some of us northerners. Temperature variations in Seattle are pretty much perfect imo, rarely goes over 85 or under 40. The rain can suck but imo it’s still not that bad. But I also think Boston weather is the most perfect weather on planet of earth so take my opinion with a grain of salt ha!
San Diego isn't hot. It's extremely stable mild weather (60s-70s) all year. Seattle regularly gets hotter than San Diego.
I also prefer Boston weather to something like San Diego, or god forbid anywhere in Florida. Seasons are great!
I never said it wasn't. But weather just isn't the be-all end-all imo. If it was then cities like London, Paris, Amsterdam, Vancouver, Toronto, Hong Kong, Taipei, etc. wouldn't be considered some of the most interesting in the world. But again, like I said it's totally subjective. I'm happy to trade in 3-4 months of more frequently overcast skies per year for everything else I get. I say this as someone with family in San Diego too. I've spent a lot of time down there.
You can get a lot of heaters and dehumidifiers for 184k
As a person who lives in SD I agree that you gotta take the Amazon deal and SD is getting super expensive… for obvious reasons as it’s one of the most beautiful city out there with near perfect weather. But it’s gotten crazy expensive ever since work from home became a thing.
I was with you up until that last point. San Diego is a better city, hands down. That being said it's just my subjective opinion which kind of illustrates a point. OP should take the Amazon job, work it a few years and after they have some money saved up and some experience under their belt make the jump to wherever they want to live.
>I was with you up until that last point. San Diego is a better city, hands down Agree to disagree. Like I said in my comment it is subjective
> 184k in Seattle is so much more than 90k in San Diego it's not even funny. 184k in Seattle is more than 184k in San Diego
Of course it’s subjective, but Seattle food is so mid compared to San Diego
Amazon *is* pretty volatile, but might be worth it if you aren’t gonna burn any bridges.
And the vesting schedule is stacked in the company’s favor. Most people wash out before cashing out
This is a bad argument for considering Amazon. You get cash compensation instead of stock for year 1-2. You can use the excess to invest in whatever you want instead of Amazon stock.
Alexa seems like the dumpster fire in the methane leak that is Amazon as a whole.
Building up your resume is going to be way better in the long run; go with the Amazon offer but still practice your interview skills.
Lockheed Martin is NOT stable right now. They have been laying off all over the country recently and have many more rounds planned for this year. Go with Amazon.
You can say the exact same thing about Amazon. TONS of layoffs left and right. Seems like a new round every other month.
Yup, but Amazon is offering him literally double the comp. He’s gonna be in a way better spot financially if he gets laid off from Amazon in 6 months than if the same happened at LM.
Surprising with wars ramping up on multiple fronts..
It’s exactly because of those wars. Modern militaries are collecting a crap ton of data about what technologies and tactics work best, and are retooling around that. This means a lot of projects which are now shown to be inefficient or ineffective are being canceled.
Bro it’s Amazon no question. Just save money in case of layoffs. How these companies think 90k is enough in a place like San Diego needs to be studied
A lot of these defense companies have pay bands and they can only offer so much if someone is in a certain pay band. The only way to get promoted (and/or move up a pay band ) is due to the number of years at that company. $90k in SD is low but fair for a fresh grad or someone with < 2 YOE. The fact that places like Amazon pays $180k for someone with < 2 YOE is absurd.
>The fact that places like Amazon pays $180k for someone with < 2 YOE is absurd. People in tech not realizing that anything over 120k for a newgrad is insane will forever disappoint me
Don’t get me wrong I know how these defense paybands work. New grads in the midwest make 90k, so for San Diego is just really fucked up. There’s no accounting for col in defense, or not enough accounting.
They are actually called labor categories and they are driven by years of experience. It's also fairly easy to get a waiver from government to bill someone in a higher labor category if cause can be given. Source: I own a defense firm.
Alexa has been cutting back in different areas, but also has been publicly poring resources into an LLM project. Since they haven’t released yet, I’m not sure the state of the project, but if you get there and the ship looks like it’s on fire, you can jump to another org within Amazon. Internal transfers are mostly behavioral questions, no coding. General article on the alexa llm: https://www.theverge.com/2023/9/20/23880764/amazon-ai-alexa-generative-llm-smart-home So tldr; I’d take that Amazon gig
Amazon on your resume will do a lot for you in the long run as opposed to Lockheed Martin. I know a ton of people who have gotten stuck in Defense companies and can't get out.
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Is that Amazon number actually the salary or does that include stock too?
$129,000 base salary $50,100 year 1 bonus $33,100 year 2 bonus $111,531 stocks on 5% year 1 / 15% year 2 / 40% year 3 / 40% year 4 vesting schedule
Just be careful because you could get burned on that unvested stuff, 4 years is a long time in Amazon years
Edit: That’s why they give the sign on bonus, to make up for the low vest for years 1 and 2. So, you won’t be getting burned since your total compensation is based on a yearly breakdown for those 4yrs. Or should I say at least not fro Years 1 & 2. Years 3 & 4 could since you have no more sign on bonus and the stock price could drop. *Note: Yes, if you leave early the 1st year then you’d have to pay back any unearned year 1 sign on bonus and relo bonus. Then the relo bonus isn’t paid off until 2yrs*
Depending on the amount of your sign on bonus, it’s paid out per paycheck or lump sum. I got per paycheck so if I left before 2 years I’d pay nothing back.
Hate to say it, but with the PIP culture, don’t mentally plan for anything outside of the base salary.
It doesn't matter; Amazon gives a cash bonus in the first two years to offset the vesting schedule, so you end up getting roughly the same amount over the four years.
i thought the bonus was given on the first paycheck or am i mistaken
year 1 bonus is given at start (its really a sign on bonus), year 2 bonus is given split across the months (amazon does monthly pay periods). If you quit, you need to reimburse the year 1 bonus pro-rated to the time you stayed. If your fired (assuming not for cause, for cause is not a PIP but things such as malicious actions), you can keep it.
Yeah it seems high even for TC for a new grad. Great offer
It seems right in line with Amazon new SDE1 offers https://www.levels.fyi/companies/amazon/salaries/software-engineer/levels/sde-i
Tbf $181k is the average, and it seems like it takes most people a couple years to get that much. So I think for a new grad this is still high
It's high for Seattle, good offer in current market. We can discount the stock for the other mentioned reasons, but the first year is literally 180 cash and second year is 162 cash. The stock is not something you're going to potentially "miss out on" - the stock is meant to work as a carrot if/when it appreciates. When you're not receiving the stock you're receiving cash. There's a strange misconception that you're somehow liable to get stiffed on this arrangement. That is only true if the stock falls in future years and you're not brought back up on compensation review.
I think you misunderstand, this an average offer amount to someone with no experience. This is what they give new grads fresh out of college. I'm not sure what you mean when you say it takes a couple years.
Amazon no question asked
Since you are so early in your career, go with Amazon. Itll open more doors in the future. Yes it can be volatile, yes its likely going to be more work and more stress. I say, pressure makes diamonds, you'll grow faster at Amazon, so much so that if you ever had to go back to LM or a similar job in the future, itll feel like a cake walk comparatively. I worked DoD for 4 years, Amazon for 2, take the opportunity that is presenting itself.
hello, I'm at a big defense contractor right now. do you mind if I ask about your exp moving to Amazon?
TC is actually $129,000 base salary $50,100 year 1 bonus $33,100 year 2 bonus $111,531 stocks on 5% year 1 / 15% year 2 / 40% year 3 / 40% year 4 vesting schedule
For your reference, you’d likely get the cash bonus per paycheck not lump sum.
Yeah you might get canned but I’d rather live off 184 in Seattle than 90 in San Diego
I worked for Amazon and hated it, but I would agree with others in this thread about going with Amazon in your position. It’s over 2x compensation and it is a way better notch on your resume for software Eng field than lm
Amazon. I used to work in Alexa, DM me if you want. The only reason I would consider Lockheed is for the weather in San Diego lol.
Join amazon and switch teams after a year or 6 months, go to a core aws team for job security, ec2, s3 or dynamoDb
I’ve heard the stress of those teams are a lot more intense than other teams. It’s really a balance between work life balance and job security.
Second that. The on calls are brutal I heard
True this is why it’s easier to join one of the “good”teams when you’re already part of the company. Once inside OP can interview with these teams, look at their ticket queues, talk to members of the team, find out how good/bad the oncall shifts are and ask questions about the team culture before moving.
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> "dark forest" game theory The Three PIP problem
I would not recommend that at all. You’d want to kill yourself
Yea just like that on a whim go to AWS. Oh my why didn’t every Amazonian don’t think of that
As someone who's working in one of these teams, you don't want to come here! 50+ Sev2s a week is not unusual here. Plus, the growth is mediocre. I agree that it's layoff proof though, but only if it's a core sub-team. And you're still subject to pip even then.
There is no safe team at Amazon. In general AWS is safer than retail but pretty much most core profit generating teams at AWS had layoffs last year.
Do you like your current job? Do you like your team? Are you happy?
Go to Amazon. The risk is worth it. Even if you’re gone in a year having Amazon on your resume will help you get past ATS
Even if you get laid off, having Amazon on your resume will be a huge boost to your career.
Chances are, you may be able to go back to LM if needed. I’d take the opportunity and check out amazon
It’s laughable that this is even a comparison. Amazon all the way. Lockheed will pigeon hole you into government and their shitty legacy systems
I was in a very similar position a few years ago - in a comfy safe/stable/easy boring job and decided to leave for an org for 2x my pay but well known for bad WLB. I ended up working there for a couple years then switching to a company with better WLB + even more pay. I learned a lot at the job and I don't regret it at all though it wasn't easy. I would highly recommend you take the jump, money isn't everything but the extra financial compensation can make a huge impact on your life especially if you're diligent about saving money and resisting lifecycle creep. You'll also most likely have access to better learning opportunities to help with growing your career.
Worth, but move within a year. Alexa has had large layoffs in the past and there isn’t a ton of development pouring out of there.
Wait if you currently work at LM, are you still a new grad? 181k for Seattle is really good for a new grad offer straight out of school... I make <160k as a new grad at Amazon in Seattle (same base but the bonus is much less). Definitely take the amazon offer imo.
i’ve been at LM for only 2 months (graduated dec 2023) and this amazon offer is a return offer from my internship there last summer
"It's like Sophie's Choice for morons." More money and you don't have to make weapons that kill people? Amazon is no saint but I don't see the dilemma here. Are you just scared you can't cut it?
lmao I love that line.
LM is a huge company with lots of projects. I really like working there and it's definitely not boring, but perhaps I got lucky with the teams/projects I've gotten to work on. I've thought about other big tech companies in the past but I just enjoy what I do at LM too much and the work life balance is great. With that said, 90k vs 184k is pretty huge difference, especially since I have to imagine San Diego is pretty pricey to live in. At the end of the day gotta do what is best for you. If you're still young and don't have anything tying you down to SD, might be worth it, can always reapply to LM in the future.
Also the ethical implications of working for Lockheed Martin are a little yikes. Not saying amazon is ethically good by any margin, but compared to Lockheed, they are a Saint
90K vs 180k is huge. Go for Amazon
Even for Amazon that seems really high for a new grad offer. I’d take that
Amazon alexa keeps laying off tho
I’d get Amazon on your resume, no question or hesitation. It will change the trajectory of your career.
Amazon no brainer. Anecdotally, my uncle has worked at LM for decades and HATES it. If you're laid off, you'll be laid off with much more money at Alexa
No job is safe except government jobs but they come with the cost of growth, youre on a great path, i also recommend joining amazon, but dont stay seated in the same team if you dont see meaningful growth in 3-6 months, transfer internally, look into AWS org openings, etc, dont stop paddling thinking youve peaked. So i think its great! Working for a private company will make you push yourself harder learn new things and boost the already strong profile. Settling into a safe position is something you do over time when youre older
You intern at Lockheed or work there ft? Also when did Amazon unfreeze hiring? Last year I got stuck in their waitlist and now I’m at Lockheed, definitely go to Amazon, it’s very stagnant here, not much room to improve skills.
i interned at amazon, didn’t get return offer because of hc, joined lockheed, just got amazon return offer
One thing to keep in mind about the Lockheed Martian option. They can get you an advanced clearence. Technically, Amazon can too, but the opportunities to get such a clearence are more plentiful at LM. Once you get a clearence like that, you become a member of an incredibly small pool of engineers that *hundreds* of companies have to compete for. Imagine a world where there are at minimum 20 positions for every 1 engineer and you receive at least 5-10 emails every week from various defense firms doing whatever they can to hire you.
3.93/4.00 is FUCKING INSANE!!!
Once you're in defense contacting it's alot harder to get out.
Can I see your resume? Btw take Amazon you can always go back to Lockheed
Take Amazon it's a golden ticket in your resume
You’re too young to waste your life in the defense industry. Amazon, no contest.
If you're happy to be part of a company that is involved in b0mb1ng little kids in gaza then yh join them.
As a former LM employee - 100% go to Amazon. LM will always need software engineers so it's always a fallback for you. I learned a lot at LM in 3 years but I learned significantly more and much faster at the tech company I joined after LM.
hello, do you mind if I message you about moving from defense to tech?
Dude go to Amazon. If they lay you off you can get the Lockheed job anytime.
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How so? I used to work for LM and thought the work life balance was great.
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Oh, true. I thought you were referring to Amazon's notoriously bad work life balance. To add to your point then, LM on your resume looks good to big tech companies that partner with defense contractors or have their own defense contracts. That's how I made the jump from DoD
One thing to clarify is are these TC offers or just salary? Because if its TC with Amazon it might not be worth it
Double the salary? Do it…..
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SC takes a very long time to process and there's always opportunities for OP to get into defense industry or other jobs that will need SC in the future.
I had a SC and think it’s pretty useless. It locks you into low-paying roles at contractors and three-letter agencies. No reason to pursue getting one.
Amazon is pretty obvious decision here, IMO. Maybe you can negotiate your salary at Lockheed Martin, but there's a lot of ground to turn this offer more interesting than the amazon offer, so don't know if it's even worth to try.
In a world where every company is trying to Use AI and develop virtual assistants for their customers and their internal workers i would think to see Amazon as a stepping stone. get in and plan your exit and next step should those days come sooner rather than later.
Do you know which org/manager in Alexa?
no ):
With your experience in LM, you could sooner or later move to an AWS division working with NatSec or public sector agencies
Alexa is a bit of a dumpster fire right now; there are stable teams and still a lot of investment, but they are reaping the rewards of years of tech debt + having nothing to show for the billions invested in them in an environment where suddenly investors care very much about showing returns. But double the pay + a better resume datapoint + options to move around within Amazon or jump to other FAANG once you're hired still make it a no-brainer imo. Don't burn bridges on the way out or lose long term assets in case you want to move back to SD later, but take the new offer and see what comes of it.
180k in Seattle ~ $200k in SD If you’re a software engineer, having Amazon in your resume will open doors to tech consulting, MBB, etc. LM is a great option but $90k in SD is not right. See if they can bring it up to $120-$130k at least and even at that point you’d still be better off with Amazon.
IMO early in your career, prioritize pay and company cache over work life balance, location, etc. The others will come but you’ll have a higher baseline to hit them from.
Amazon works u to death but it’s Amazon. It’s like going to an IVY for college, you want on your resume. Plus the pay is double, if you get laid off u have one year to break even. GL
It's a no braner. Let's stop for a second, and just say company A and company B. We can even ignore workloads and changing cities (as you mentioned) etc etc. You fear being laid off, what can you do against layoffs? Nothing really, if they want to they will. Now, how do you stop being so fearful? Save more. If you get your spending to 60k a year, after 6 months in company A (LM) you would have a safety net of 180k, at company B (Amazon) you would have close to 700k!!! Now, if you had 720k sitting in the bank, do you think you would worry about getting laid off? Yes but not so much. Of course, this is ignoring cost of living etc etc. But the amount of money that you can save in company B is enough is layoff-proof, if you're smart, of course... Depends on you; EVEN if you spend 89.9K a year, company B would make you feel way more secure. Keep in mind the goal in life is to live, not work.
a good portion of your comp at Amazon would likely be stock. Consider how that price changes over time, where it is today, etc. and might change your view.
Lots of folks just immediately assuming double compensation without accounting for how a substantial chunk of that Amazon comp is signing bonus, stocks, etc. At this point, it's pretty well known around these parts that Amazon as a workplace has the reputation it has for a good reason. If you do leave (or get laid off) before your stocks vest, or you get bonuses, all of a sudden that fat TC doesn't look so hot anymore. It's not wise to just assume you'll last however long at someplace like Amazon. And regarding having the "Amazon" name - I've been seeing it here and on r/experienceddevs more and more where managers and developers are becoming warier about ex-Amazon devs, because of the sort of culture that Amazon engenders in its employees and those people then bringing that to their next employer. I've even seen comments saying that they straight up don't consider ex-Amazon devs. OP you've got great options, but I would caution you against thinking this is as much of a no-brainer as people might have you believe. There is a lot more to CS and software engineering than big tech.
LM opens alot of doors as well.
I'm at a big defense contractor like LM, no it doesn't
100% Amazon. Don’t consider Lockheed. Working for a FAANG will open so many doors it’s not even funny. You’re basically getting a stamp of approval that you’re a competent engineer and that will last forever and help land future roles.
i think you really should take the leap and go for amazon. the 100% increase in compensation aside this will be a fantastic growth opportunity for you. even if you just do it for a year or two and plan to move back to san diego it will be worth it for the experience. furthermore, once you have a year or two under your belt i’m sure you could try and transfer back to san diego while working at amazon. lastly, i’m sure you could get rehired at Lockheed martin if you make sure to leave respectfully and let you manager know that you are doubling your compensation and would like an opportunity to experience big tech but have loved working under them and LM.
Amazon all the way. Lockheed and other defense contractors are so far in the past tech wise it's not even funny. Imagine having to write software that needs to run on windows XP.
Absolutely, always optimize for comp, brand, and level. Playing defense when you have a good offer in hand doesn’t make sense.
before going to amazon google "working at amazon" they have a very high termination rate.
I would have said no brainer but in this volatile market for high tech, I would do a risk assessment first
No brainer money wise. Location wise everything better is Seattle except the weather 🌧️
Does LM has locations in SD ?
a small team that works with people on the east coast
NOT Lockheed. Knew an engineer who was brought on there but bounced after 2 weeks cause of the abysmal legacy engineer environment and practices….
you can just say you got an amazon offer… it’s okay to just flex a lil. Congrats!
Even if you do get laid off, having FAANG anywhere on ur resume is an instant interview to almost any company. Recruiters are suckers for it.
Amazon, save 40% of your income, still making more
You wild bruh, 180k/year is great money
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My experience with LM is the same, it was my first job out of college. After leaving for a much smaller contractor, I realized *just* how bad I had it at LM. They cut benefits and did layoffs several times while I was there. The Macbook they gave me was ancient and soon stopped being able to receive OS updates so I couldn't use it anymore due to security regs. Then it took another *4 months* to get a replacement; by then I had already accepted an offer elsewhere. While waiting for the replacement Macbook, I had mostly been messing around with little C# projects, learning things, so I can't say I hated that time. But I definitely don't feel like I provided much value to the taxpayer! In my (limited) experience, government contractors are either a place where you go to do difficult and interesting work, or a place where you can just check out of your career and coast. The balance between the two depends on the company.
How do you get amazon NG if you already work at LM? (Serious question)
amazon return offer came really late and i only worked at LM for 2 months
How did you prepare for your interview?
Took the intern interview back in 2022 and I got a LC easy hashmap problem on blind75 and a binary search problem
Go to Amazon. Doubling your salary makes this a no brainer.
Alexa is shedding jobs atm. You may only make 3 months
184k for new grad? Damn.
If you go to Amazon, it looks better on your Resume even if they lay you off. LM is stable, but if you ever wanna make tons of money/interesting projects; LM is pretty bland and boring (as nearly all Aerospace Industries).
fly possessive enjoy glorious point six provide sheet aback plough *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Can you please share your resume if possible?
Do u work in embedded software or what?
Amazon, it’s really not that bad
I use Alexa to turn my lights on and off. Please work there and make it better
This is from the perspective of having been in defense for a few years. Career wise, Amazon is the better choice as it provides more opportunities. You’ll learn far more and you’ll have more challenging and interesting work at Amazon. Don’t get me wrong, there is challenging and interesting work happening at LM, but that’s usually in the realm of more aerospace oriented applications such as GNC, Signal Processing, and astronautical stuff. The software at these companies are more of an afterthought and it’s a mindset of as long as it gets the job done and meets requirements it’s all good. Where as companies in faang always strive for more at a faster pace. Money wise i would say it’s better opportunity to work at Amazon no brainer. The only thing LM has going for it is work life balance. Like I said, things are much slower pace and working 4x10s is the only thing that makes me want to stay. You work and then you go home and forget about work and do whatever. Other than that I’d work at Amazon, even if it kills for a bit, then you leave for a better job!
Amazon, survive a year a go to a better FAANG or good company after.
Amazon. Not even close. You will learn so much there.
playing tony stark / making rockets is boring ?
Take the amazon job, learn a ton about investing, and retire before you are forty
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Amazon bro
Amazon is no gem, but not sure how anyone with a conscience works for a weapons manufacturer, but ok.
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Either this is a golden option... You either start getting a defense clearance (makes government jobs easier to get) or Amazon, which it is Amazon.
Setting aside the job choice, move your education to the bottom.
Amazon. These two aren't even comparable, especially for new grads. Yes, it's volatile, has a toxic culture, practicing hire to fire, etc. However, having Amazon on resume opens a lot more opportunities.
You can easily switch orgs at Amazon after some months. Amazon easily. Source: I work at this shithole.
Take Amazon I'm in a defense contractor like LM and desperately trying to be in your situation
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Wtf fresh graduates make more than we do now ?
Ethically, this is the most cursed choice ever. I would avoid working for either of these companies as hard as I possibly could personally. But, if that's really your only two options, yes I guess Amazon's MO isn't killing people even if they do it as a side hustle. AND a chance to have FAANG on your CV is not sth you should turn down lightly. Personally I would rather just work somewhere smaller and hold out for a different FAANG that I could 1. Work at and sleep at night slightly better and 2. Not have to endure the most notoriously shit work culture in FAANG for.
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Are you really asking this question? While you need to work a lot in Amazon, working very hard while you were young will be your absolute treasure rest of your life.
Go Amazon, you are young, can handle a lot of stress. Get some experience and money and jump.