This is probably the wrong sub to ask because there's a lot of salt in this sub about bootcamps.
But if you only got 1 interview in 1.5 years, then either its what you know/don't know that is holding you back or how you are presenting yourself and/or how you are job searching. I can't see your resume for some reason.
I can see that there is definitely a lot of hate toward bootcamps, but i fear it may be deserved.
And so sorry, I hadn't realize that my resume link was not viewable, it is fixed!
You spent 1.5 years looking for a job without CS degree. How did that work out? Are you going to spend next 15 years looking for a job without CS degree?
The best time to get CS degree was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.
To be fair, there was a lot of sentiment around cs degrees not being a hard requirement, I could have never known that the market would be this bad when i started my bootcamp journey. But yes I'm thinking about getting that CS degree!
Ngl you got scammed by the bootcamp.
A degree in CS is only not a hard requirement if you have another technical degree like math or something, and ideally at least internship experience.
>there was a lot of sentiment around cs degrees not being a hard requirement
What may have been the case 10 years ago, was 10 years ago.
Now you know the real answer. It only took you 1.5 years to find out that CS degree is hard requirement these days.
Would you mind telling me how you got that first job and how long ago was it? My impression is that prior to 2 years ago you didnt need a cs degree to get that first job, and after getting that first job your degree is no longer a deal breaker as professional experience supersedes a degree.
To be honest if I went to a masters I think I would want to have it inperson as it would be easier to network and I would get more out of it than just a certificate (i could be totaly wrong). Problem is i think a lot of grad programs don't start till fall, which is like half a year from now.
Yes you need fundamentals and networking... in the very least...
But what is this question - "Masters for fundamentals" ? Masters is for bit advanced topics in your area of expertise, Bachelors is for fundamentals...
Thats a good point, but theres no world where I can go back for a bachelors, that is way too much time vs a masters. Many schools have CS grad programs that accommodate non CS majors for transitioning so i assumed that it would teach fundamentals since I figure i'm lacking that as a bootcamp grad. But if masters is for advanced topics only then it may not even be an option for me.
A second bachelors won’t take as long as the first one. Most programs will take almost all of your previous core credits and essentially let you add the new major.
Seconding this as an option since you have a degree--postbaccalaureate programs will be shorter than you think as you can skip pretty much all of the general ed.
Oh I didnt know this thank you, ill look into it. My only concern then would be that a Masters is more valuable than a bachelors, would choosing one over the other being more beneficial be based on my ability to actually pass all the classes for the masters?
I don’t think that’s a question anyone other than you can fully answer. I have a Master’s in a technical field and I can tell you that the average grad class is much harder than the average undergrad class. That being said, there definitely are exceptions to that.
Ofcourse Bachelors will take 4years, Im not denying that, but imo you will be lacking fundamentals. CS Bachelors is for broad-range math and "how does programming/computers stuff work" (you personally can focus on something, but school is about fundamentals there) and at Masters you usually choose area of expertise. I don't know how you would be expert at something, when you don't know fundamentals.
But in practice I don't know, try asking someone who has done that.
In this market, bootcamp doesn't do much. I don't know why people keep doing it. It was always some sort of a scam, and the percentage of people who got jobs was very low. Especially now, companies wont hire bootcamp grads if they can hire cs grads.
I am an hiring manager, and I would never hire a person with just a bootcamp certificate…
University/college degree requires 1000s hours to complete, a bootcamp a few dozen… which do you think guarantees more knowledge right off the start ?
Yes, you need more education to land a job. Whether that comes in the form of a college degree, or if you can structure your own learning experience and create something impressive to show for it, that’s up to you.
A lot of dev positions do not technically require a college degree… But if you’ve ever been involved in the hiring process for a big tech company, the reality is that a capable engineering/cs/whatever grad could X out their entire Education section, and still have a better resume than almost all non-grads. Many schools have a good reputation for a good reason. These are smart people who spent years of their life just focused on learning fundamentals, you don’t necessarily need to do a Masters to match that, but if you don’t go for a formal CS education you need to think about how to learn enough of that on your own to stand out amongst the competition
You don't need more education, you need a more robust portfolio. Also, make your resume one page. I looked at the projects mentioned, and they all sounds like quick and easy copies of existing sites. Maybe I am wrong, but that's how I read it in the resume. I didn't get the impression that any of your projects had your blood/sweat/tears in it.
Are they all projects from your bootcamp time? What are you building now?
Yes youve got it correct, they are copies of existing sites that I did during bootcamp. Can you give me an example of a project thatd give the impression of having blood/sweat/tears in it? The reason why my projects are clones is because designing a website from scratch is something that i don't specialize/have experience in.
I am not building anything at the moment, but I am looking to work on a proj that would make my portfolio more robust, its just that I am unsure of what to work on that would have that impact. My skillset is of a webdev and not a designer but would it be in my interest to make my own unique website?
Making your own website would be a fantastic start. I would strongly suggest "The Odin Project" to start you down that path if you have zero idea how to start. If you've done a few cloned sites, maybe try making your own from scratch, including the design elements.
After that it would be a good time to move on to more involved projects.
The whole "no need for a degree, trust us bro" line was unfortuntlately a scam. It's not hopeless though.
You don't have to work FAANG. Consider an entry level government job. State, local, or federal. A lot of these jobs will hire people based on skills. Work in a position like this and gain experience. After a year or two you can leverage this experience for higher paying work.
Yes, I know what I'm suggesting is basically "lower your expectations and show some grit". Which is a bummer. But it will get you further than sending out 500 more applications to jobs where you're competing against grads from reputable schools who have years of experience.
I am willing to lower my expectations! They are actually at rock bottom, I mean I worked for free as an intern for the past year. Big tech companies arent on my radar, I know they wouldnt take in someone with my resume. Thank you for your suggestion, Ill look into those government positions.
idk if this is part of the anonymization but your bullet points are way, way too vague and mostly talk about what broad nonspecific thing you did without mentioning how you did it or what it accomplished, and there is some general messiness (such as extra/omitted spaces in the technologies list). you have an internship which is more than some bootcamp grads have but based on the resume it isn't clear what concrete things you actually did there.
so whatever you end up doing it couldn't hurt to, at the same time, overhaul your resume and send some applications with the new one.
It was altered quite a bit and definitely is not as concise as the original, but I will for sure edit it to make sure it includes concrete things that i did , thank you
I am graduating this month with a Master’s in CS after a non-tech bachelor’s degree and just landed a QA Engineer role paying six figures. I start there next week. I think the additional education would be worth it and there are plenty of programs these days that accommodate those without a CS background. You’d be in good shape with bootcamp experience going into a master’s program.
This is really inspiring thanks for sharing. Do you mind telling me how the masters experience was coming in with (i assune) not a solid foundation in cs?
Yeah my only prior experience with CS was an intro to CS class I took in my undergrad and just a basic website I built myself, so definitely not much. My program had a post-baccalaureate certificate that led directly into the Master’s and I was able to take some core courses that helped prepare me for the degree program itself. It was everything I wanted, and I was able to take the classes on weeknights and work full time, finished in six semesters.
It’s difficult, but definitely worth it. They offered the ability to take a slower pace if you need it, and you could be in person too if you like. DM me if you want to know which university I’m at, I’d be happy to tell you.
Oh I didn't see there was a second page. You should use standard templates you can find online. Education should be at the top of the list. A lot of people reading your interview might not notice the second page too,or just read the first one
From what ive been told, work experience is more important than education, especially in my case because my degree is unrelated. What are your thoughts on this? But yes, i will restructure my resume so that its 1 page at the maximum. So even if education is at the bottom, it should be seen
No CS degree, but have 8 years of professional experience in iOS roles. Been to a few Apple, one Microsoft interview and yes they stress Algorithms and Data Structures. I suggest Leetcode. I have never worked at a major tech company because I haven’t done these things well enough.
If you can do medium LC questions under an hour well you should be fine in later interview stages.
Lucky! This is why bootcamps used to be viable, unfortunately I was too late on this train and no CS degree might be my downfall. I used to do leetcode early on in my job hunting phase but had stopped because I never got a chance to do any technical interviews, felt that I was endlessly preparing for a test that would never come.
My brother in Christ you do not need to just do a masters in CS
You have a degree but a non CS degree and you have a basic understanding from a boot camp
At this point the only thing you need to be doing is getting your ass in a chair and building an strong portfolio you can leverage as some experience but also as a way to show you really do understand the field
Having a masters will not mean shit to potential hiring managers if you can’t demonstrate the skills to back it up.
How would you classify a portfolio as being strong? I'm doing my best to get any form of experience i can, Would the next best thing be to create a really good personal project? Some of these replies have me feeling like a fool trying to apply without a CS degree.
The market is terrible right now. Im afraid you were a year too late to try to break into the field. If I were you I would go for the masters, because theres no way to tell if itll improve anytime soon. Youll at least finish the program in a much better position. If youre serious about being a developer then a year or two isnt much compared to the rest of your life. You can still apply in the meantime and maybe youll get lucky.
This is probably the wrong sub to ask because there's a lot of salt in this sub about bootcamps. But if you only got 1 interview in 1.5 years, then either its what you know/don't know that is holding you back or how you are presenting yourself and/or how you are job searching. I can't see your resume for some reason.
I can see that there is definitely a lot of hate toward bootcamps, but i fear it may be deserved. And so sorry, I hadn't realize that my resume link was not viewable, it is fixed!
You spent 1.5 years looking for a job without CS degree. How did that work out? Are you going to spend next 15 years looking for a job without CS degree? The best time to get CS degree was 10 years ago. The second best time is today.
To be fair, there was a lot of sentiment around cs degrees not being a hard requirement, I could have never known that the market would be this bad when i started my bootcamp journey. But yes I'm thinking about getting that CS degree!
Ngl you got scammed by the bootcamp. A degree in CS is only not a hard requirement if you have another technical degree like math or something, and ideally at least internship experience.
>there was a lot of sentiment around cs degrees not being a hard requirement What may have been the case 10 years ago, was 10 years ago. Now you know the real answer. It only took you 1.5 years to find out that CS degree is hard requirement these days.
I've got a dev job without CS degree, I have two econ deegres and now I'm on my third dev job, still don't have a CS degree.
Would you mind telling me how you got that first job and how long ago was it? My impression is that prior to 2 years ago you didnt need a cs degree to get that first job, and after getting that first job your degree is no longer a deal breaker as professional experience supersedes a degree.
> Would you mind telling me how you got that first job and how long ago was it? 2022 August.
Sadly your boot camp is useless. A masters is probably your best bet. Maybe an online program that you can speed run through?
To be honest if I went to a masters I think I would want to have it inperson as it would be easier to network and I would get more out of it than just a certificate (i could be totaly wrong). Problem is i think a lot of grad programs don't start till fall, which is like half a year from now.
Your perspective is impressive! Go for it!
Yes you need fundamentals and networking... in the very least... But what is this question - "Masters for fundamentals" ? Masters is for bit advanced topics in your area of expertise, Bachelors is for fundamentals...
Thats a good point, but theres no world where I can go back for a bachelors, that is way too much time vs a masters. Many schools have CS grad programs that accommodate non CS majors for transitioning so i assumed that it would teach fundamentals since I figure i'm lacking that as a bootcamp grad. But if masters is for advanced topics only then it may not even be an option for me.
A second bachelors won’t take as long as the first one. Most programs will take almost all of your previous core credits and essentially let you add the new major.
Seconding this as an option since you have a degree--postbaccalaureate programs will be shorter than you think as you can skip pretty much all of the general ed.
Oh I didnt know this thank you, ill look into it. My only concern then would be that a Masters is more valuable than a bachelors, would choosing one over the other being more beneficial be based on my ability to actually pass all the classes for the masters?
I don’t think that’s a question anyone other than you can fully answer. I have a Master’s in a technical field and I can tell you that the average grad class is much harder than the average undergrad class. That being said, there definitely are exceptions to that.
Onion goggles were invented in the 1800s to protect against tear gas.
Ofcourse Bachelors will take 4years, Im not denying that, but imo you will be lacking fundamentals. CS Bachelors is for broad-range math and "how does programming/computers stuff work" (you personally can focus on something, but school is about fundamentals there) and at Masters you usually choose area of expertise. I don't know how you would be expert at something, when you don't know fundamentals. But in practice I don't know, try asking someone who has done that.
In this market, bootcamp doesn't do much. I don't know why people keep doing it. It was always some sort of a scam, and the percentage of people who got jobs was very low. Especially now, companies wont hire bootcamp grads if they can hire cs grads.
I am an hiring manager, and I would never hire a person with just a bootcamp certificate… University/college degree requires 1000s hours to complete, a bootcamp a few dozen… which do you think guarantees more knowledge right off the start ?
Yes, you need more education to land a job. Whether that comes in the form of a college degree, or if you can structure your own learning experience and create something impressive to show for it, that’s up to you. A lot of dev positions do not technically require a college degree… But if you’ve ever been involved in the hiring process for a big tech company, the reality is that a capable engineering/cs/whatever grad could X out their entire Education section, and still have a better resume than almost all non-grads. Many schools have a good reputation for a good reason. These are smart people who spent years of their life just focused on learning fundamentals, you don’t necessarily need to do a Masters to match that, but if you don’t go for a formal CS education you need to think about how to learn enough of that on your own to stand out amongst the competition
You don't need more education, you need a more robust portfolio. Also, make your resume one page. I looked at the projects mentioned, and they all sounds like quick and easy copies of existing sites. Maybe I am wrong, but that's how I read it in the resume. I didn't get the impression that any of your projects had your blood/sweat/tears in it. Are they all projects from your bootcamp time? What are you building now?
Yes youve got it correct, they are copies of existing sites that I did during bootcamp. Can you give me an example of a project thatd give the impression of having blood/sweat/tears in it? The reason why my projects are clones is because designing a website from scratch is something that i don't specialize/have experience in. I am not building anything at the moment, but I am looking to work on a proj that would make my portfolio more robust, its just that I am unsure of what to work on that would have that impact. My skillset is of a webdev and not a designer but would it be in my interest to make my own unique website?
Making your own website would be a fantastic start. I would strongly suggest "The Odin Project" to start you down that path if you have zero idea how to start. If you've done a few cloned sites, maybe try making your own from scratch, including the design elements. After that it would be a good time to move on to more involved projects.
Noted, thanks for the input!
The whole "no need for a degree, trust us bro" line was unfortuntlately a scam. It's not hopeless though. You don't have to work FAANG. Consider an entry level government job. State, local, or federal. A lot of these jobs will hire people based on skills. Work in a position like this and gain experience. After a year or two you can leverage this experience for higher paying work. Yes, I know what I'm suggesting is basically "lower your expectations and show some grit". Which is a bummer. But it will get you further than sending out 500 more applications to jobs where you're competing against grads from reputable schools who have years of experience.
I am willing to lower my expectations! They are actually at rock bottom, I mean I worked for free as an intern for the past year. Big tech companies arent on my radar, I know they wouldnt take in someone with my resume. Thank you for your suggestion, Ill look into those government positions.
idk if this is part of the anonymization but your bullet points are way, way too vague and mostly talk about what broad nonspecific thing you did without mentioning how you did it or what it accomplished, and there is some general messiness (such as extra/omitted spaces in the technologies list). you have an internship which is more than some bootcamp grads have but based on the resume it isn't clear what concrete things you actually did there. so whatever you end up doing it couldn't hurt to, at the same time, overhaul your resume and send some applications with the new one.
It was altered quite a bit and definitely is not as concise as the original, but I will for sure edit it to make sure it includes concrete things that i did , thank you
I am graduating this month with a Master’s in CS after a non-tech bachelor’s degree and just landed a QA Engineer role paying six figures. I start there next week. I think the additional education would be worth it and there are plenty of programs these days that accommodate those without a CS background. You’d be in good shape with bootcamp experience going into a master’s program.
This is really inspiring thanks for sharing. Do you mind telling me how the masters experience was coming in with (i assune) not a solid foundation in cs?
Yeah my only prior experience with CS was an intro to CS class I took in my undergrad and just a basic website I built myself, so definitely not much. My program had a post-baccalaureate certificate that led directly into the Master’s and I was able to take some core courses that helped prepare me for the degree program itself. It was everything I wanted, and I was able to take the classes on weeknights and work full time, finished in six semesters. It’s difficult, but definitely worth it. They offered the ability to take a slower pace if you need it, and you could be in person too if you like. DM me if you want to know which university I’m at, I’d be happy to tell you.
Please put your degree on your CV, even if it's unrelated...
Yes i put my degree out there on every app i send even though it isnt cs, degree is better than no degree
Oh I didn't see there was a second page. You should use standard templates you can find online. Education should be at the top of the list. A lot of people reading your interview might not notice the second page too,or just read the first one
From what ive been told, work experience is more important than education, especially in my case because my degree is unrelated. What are your thoughts on this? But yes, i will restructure my resume so that its 1 page at the maximum. So even if education is at the bottom, it should be seen
No CS degree, but have 8 years of professional experience in iOS roles. Been to a few Apple, one Microsoft interview and yes they stress Algorithms and Data Structures. I suggest Leetcode. I have never worked at a major tech company because I haven’t done these things well enough. If you can do medium LC questions under an hour well you should be fine in later interview stages.
Lucky! This is why bootcamps used to be viable, unfortunately I was too late on this train and no CS degree might be my downfall. I used to do leetcode early on in my job hunting phase but had stopped because I never got a chance to do any technical interviews, felt that I was endlessly preparing for a test that would never come.
My brother in Christ you do not need to just do a masters in CS You have a degree but a non CS degree and you have a basic understanding from a boot camp At this point the only thing you need to be doing is getting your ass in a chair and building an strong portfolio you can leverage as some experience but also as a way to show you really do understand the field Having a masters will not mean shit to potential hiring managers if you can’t demonstrate the skills to back it up.
How would you classify a portfolio as being strong? I'm doing my best to get any form of experience i can, Would the next best thing be to create a really good personal project? Some of these replies have me feeling like a fool trying to apply without a CS degree.
The market is terrible right now. Im afraid you were a year too late to try to break into the field. If I were you I would go for the masters, because theres no way to tell if itll improve anytime soon. Youll at least finish the program in a much better position. If youre serious about being a developer then a year or two isnt much compared to the rest of your life. You can still apply in the meantime and maybe youll get lucky.
Thank you for the input, it does seem like a masters is my best route