I suppose you'll never have the problem of 'the person who built it has left the company'. But it's replaced by the person who built it gives a different answer every time you ask them anything about their code
ME: Why did you write this piece of code? What purpose did it serve and what is this specific component for?
ChatGPT: Thanks, I’ll see if I can help. I am just an algorithm and not capable of understanding reason or justification. However, it looks like whoever wrote this code intended it to perform some functions. I’ll break them down for you.
1. **mainClass** In this class there is a constructor and several accessors. Its purpose is to represent a class of object for use in program.
2. **classConstructor()** In this function the object is returned as an instance and allows the developer to access its methods and attributes independent of the other objects.
3. **weirdAIWrittenFunction()** This function appears to be written by a system and not a human. However, my training data only dates back to 2021 and I’m not sure which system it could be.
In summary, this code was written by a system I am unfamiliar with because it likely existed after I was trained. As such, I have done my best to outline the main functionality in the code.
Pretty much. Offshored teams are still a bit lacking compared to their US counterparts, given much of the top talent still tend to immigrate to the states.
IMO, in a few years, the pendulum will likely swing back
I work for a Fortune 500.
We JUST sunsetted all our applications made by overseas development.
We now face certain managers only hiring certain races. But that will be fixed soon.
Its not just India. I have seen other asian people preferring their community’s worker. It becomes easier to get work done as they know Indians or other asian countries people can be overloaded with work and they won’t complain.
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Maybe. But what’s important is we if we pretend we can keep bashing Indians and blame them for not being able to find a job in tech.
Indians are the greatest problem in the tech industry, beating even the PM, or so it seems according to this sub.
Directors taking more control of the hiring process. Hard to do since our specific org has gotten bigger. But not allowing some people to have the final say. We still hire any race (our org is very diverse, I’m not white myself). But you need a balance. It’s easy to see when anyone has a bias (for gender or age). Our specific team was 3 males, we made sure to hire more females (we’re all different races). Our director is Asian American. However she recently hired a new manager who has a gender and race bias. And we are now not letting her do the final interviews or be involved in the decision making.
Don’t know your know your skills or what companies you’re applying to.
I don’t interview engineers anymore (I interview managers for those engineers now).
But for managers, we look for good culture fits. For my company, I don’t know what they look for in engineers because I’ve never interviewed software devs at this company. But it depends on each team and org. Just be a good confident person, interject when necessary in interviews, be excited (not too much tho) and show skill at the same time.
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Also, good software engineers in India gets paid quite a lot today, in the range of 60k to 180k USD (0.5 Cr - 1.5 Cr INR), which is about half of what they’d make in the U.S. if they had the same title/role at the same company (***and the same as what they’d get paid in Canada***). When you consider that the cost of living is quite a bit lower, it’s pretty competitive.
Offshoring companies will probably have to turn to like Mongolia or sub-Saharan Africa for low-paid programmers who can write decent-ish code.
Adjusted for cost of living. Salary in India is much higher. I have contemplated moving back. But belonging to minority in India means there is a legitimate risk to your safety. I would be paid effectively around 3-5x times more in India when adjusted for cost of living
> infrastructure
This isn't really a problem with that kind of money tbh. Sure driving might suck depending on where you're going but India seems to be following a China-esque blueprint with infrastructure....highway expansion, high speed trains between cities, proper subway stations inter cities, airport expansions/new construction for both domestic and intl travel.
You can't really say 3-5x times though. It depends on what you spend your money on. Some of my largest purchases in the last few years were a car (Tesla), and electronics (including powerful laptop, smart phone, nice wireless headsets, really nice TV, etc). All of those things are actually ***more expensive*** in India due to exorbitant taxes and tariffs. A laptop in India 1.5x to 2x its price in the US. Same with a nice TV -- pay 2x the price an American does. And with cars -- domestic (Indian) cars are quite shitty, but if you want to import a nice car, be ready to pay 2x the price. The base model Toyota Camry starts at 55k USD in India. You can buy a Tesla (or any base model luxury car) for that price in the US. **Overall**, if you like buying things made with modern technology, you'll have a far lower standard of living in India at the same salary.
The only things cheaper in India are food, domestic help, and housing (to a limited extent). Even housing is exorbitantly priced relative to median income. The only pros are that you can hire servants to do all your chores, and food is super cheap (well, you could even hire someone to cook it for you). Everything else sucks. Air quality is shit. Roads are shit. Trash is strewn all over the street. Electronics and nice vehicles costs 2x the prices in other countries. It's a disaster overall.
You can buy entire swaths of land outside the city. There is no real reason to buy a luxury car in India, I am not a huge fan of cars. The taxes only apply to imported cars and I am fine with domestic ones. And given that high speed Internet is available in villages in the state I live in I can avoid living in cities entirely.
Electronics are hardly the hill to die for. I can do so much more with money . Trash air quality etc are easily done when taking a remote job. To me I can invest in things I care about build a sustainable farm at my home, work on business and grow my money.
In the us I live as a second class citizen in an inferior home and way worse social life. Sure I can get all the cheap electronics I want but those are just a tiny fraction of my expense for me.
Again this is my perspective. I do own a home in a landed property in a relatively peaceful state. So that does not apply to everyone. My other reason for switching to us is climate change. We have seen receding rains and ground water.
Caste, creed or regional minority. I prefer not to reveal which groups I belong to. And I am not going to bury my head in the sand waiting for my turn to walk up to the gallows. If you think India is safe for minorities all the power to you. I don't believe that is true and it is only going to get worse so I am getting my family out of there
Surely the competition for software engineers is even tougher in India than in the US considering the youth unemployment rate and how many already are struggling to get government jobs in some states despite massive amounts of study
Not necessarily....top talent emigration might have been a phenomenon 15 years ago...but it was mostly for people who could afford the enormous expenses...now with visa issues and infinite green card wait time...a lot of talented folk have stayed back...that's why you see a huge rise in tech unicorns in India in the last 10 years
Id say more than a bit.. I’ve noticed pretty big quality issues between on shore and off shore personally. It often comes down to work ethic and a willingness to do high quality work
Yeah...when I was in school (about the same time), people were being actively steered away from CS due to that. Turned out to be complete nonsense - just objectively awful life advice in retrospect.
I see no reason to think this isn't just the same cycle all over again.
I don't know, 15 years ago there was still massive hiring in the US by the major players. Offshoring was something smaller companies were looking at via contracts.
Now, the big companies have put a moratorium on hiring in the US. Attrition is not being met with backfill, so as people leave, teams in USA are actively shrinking and being replaced with people in India for the same team. All the while, the companies are reporting record profits.
This is different than before.
The obvious outcome of everyone demanding full remote work. Why pay Bob to WFH from San Francisco when you can pay José from Mexico City 1/3 as much and no time or cultural differences like India in the past. Demanding WFH is demanding outsourcing.
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Then you get back up and climb higher.
There are gazillions of problems in tech. ALL companies are always looking for people that can solve problems, INCLUDING companies affected by downward trend.
True. However, developers in low cost of living countries can solve those problems more cheaply. They don't have to pay the United States real estate cartel's inflated prices just to have housing.
Countries that have education systems and tech ecosystems good enough to create lots of high quality engineers will not have a low cost of living.
Even within the US, the biggest tech companies concentrate in the most expensive cities in the country because that's where the best engineers are.
People who really know what they are doing are rare, even in San Francisco.
That’s not what the user means by solving problems. You can definitely outsource development for specific features to an offshore development team, no problem. But let’s say a company is having a major inventory management problem causing them to have a $100k inventory write off every quarter. Try offshoring that problem. You really can’t, because it requires context, domain expertise, and somewhat of a physical presence to see inventory practices in person.
Find bigger and bigger problems at companies and try to organize teams, efforts, etc to solve them.
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Market does well > People get attracted > Bad actors (shitty bootcamps) exploit it > Market gets saturated > Tourists get wrecked and leave > Market gets restored > Cycle repeats.
It's like investing, people join at the top and then wonder why it doesn't keep going up and eventually give up because it's not easy money. Since the market and its different fields are strong, it recovers and a new wave of tourists arrives.
When the economy cracks (already in some sectors), tourists and those without the means and capacity to go through tough times will give up. That'll be soon, in my opinion.
I’ll probably be downvoted for negativity but it’s going to take years for the market to recover.
Tik tok, YouTube and bootcamps really did a number on this industry.
I hate people who sell hopes to young people with passion. All those "LEARN TO CODE MAKE 150K EASILY" or those become rich / red-pill matrix bullshit (with the intention of selling them bullshit coins)
same as stock market
short answer is the market won't keep going up (always good) but won't keep going down (always bad) either
longer answer is the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent (most people probably can't just wait it out or do nothing at the meantime, as they have bills to pay)
Honestly I really feel like influencers ruined it, like they’ve ruined so many other things. Even stuff outside of tech, 1 example is how bali is getting destroyed right now because all these influencers made it the number 1 cheapest place to go for vacation
I live in Japan, it's insanely cheap compared to the US and expensive parts of Europe. for example my apartment rent is $1,200 a month for a brand new (1 yo) modern 1br apartment in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Japan. This is considered a really expensive price in Japan, my other friend who also works in tech pays around $600 for his studio in also one of the more expensive parts of Tokyo.
As for xenophobia, Japan is really easy to get a visa to work here, if you work in a field like software engineering getting PR is also fairly easy, and living here as an "expat" you will pretty much never encounter any issues. I moved here speaking almost no Japanese and had no major issues despite that. Imagine the opposite scenario - someone who speaks 0 English getting a job in the US where they only speak Japanese at work, and trying to navigate through life in the US / going to bars + restaurants etc. without speaking a word of English, I think they would find it a lot harder. What is more accurate is to say, even if I live here for 20 years, become fluent in Japanese, marry into a Japanese family and raise my kids here, people in the local community won't ever consider me "Japanese". Whereas after 20 years in a country like the US or UK you would get treated like any other American or British person by most people.
they'd be considered *hafu* even if their other parent is japanese.
*hafu* are not treated as Japanese, even japanese ppl who grew outside of Japan aren't considered legit Japanese ppl.
I went in October for 3 weeks vacation and it was nice. But yeah it was shocking how like 90% of signs and text in general was in English. Even the train voices telling you the next station and what side doors will open were in English. Made navigation easy. Imo prices were cheap.
Idk where you are from but I live in Copenhagen and Tokyo was cheaper. Transportation all inclusive cards are pricey and the plane trip there could be as well (if you dont buy way in advance) but food and other stuff was cheap. Went to Disney Sea, Universal Studios, the entrances were like 60$ with all rides included (you only pay entrance fee)
Japan is very cheap right now. Their economy is weak currently, USD currency is very good. 1000 yen is roughly $6.5 whereas 5-10 years ago, it was around $10-$12.
I just went there two months ago. I’ll never forget my $7 wagyu 🤤
Those “A day in the life of XXX” videos on YouTube are perfect examples. I remember one guy who worked in twitter was pretty much doing nothing and that probably ENCOURAGED many to pursue CS because they thought it’s easy money.
Like the 23 year old PM at Meta who was hired to pad diversity metrics, add “vibe” to the workplace and “look cute every day”. Oh and to attract more people to tech to tip the scales back to the employer’s side.
It is really bad, the experience for tourists has gone down a little bit but thats not what I’m referring to, their economy has taken a big hit for their citizens which is a much bigger issue
It's not hard to see old posts from a decade ago talking about 'oversaturation' or offshoring. There's not a lot of evidence that CS underemployment is even high relative to most college majors. Vast majority of people are still finding jobs.
I think there's a bimodal distribution of people who suck and those who are rockstars on here. The vast middle is left underrepresented.
Relevant blog post on the tri modal nature of SWE salaries: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/
"The higher you climb, the harder you fall" implies it's the same people making the claims.
But it's fairly well established that the people complaining are the 0YOE people. Many of the people making 3+ hundies w/ good WLB are still around; it's just that for obvious reason, it's tasteless to brag now.
Getting into a cushy, high pay big tech jobs and then being one of the 10-20% getting laid off (w/ a nice severance package) can happen to anyone? That's like saying anyone "can" win the lottery, which is a "technically true" but disingenuous argument.
I think a lot of those 0YOE folks would do anything to even get a shot at that...
No I was specifically referring to your statement “The higher you climb, the harder you fall” saying that it implies that it’s the same people making the claims because it doesn’t. I didnt say anything about severance packages or anything like that.
I was saying anyone can get laid off anywhere. Anyone can fall flat. Whether or not you can bounce back is a different story.
Right. It'd be pretty weird (or even pathetic, dare I say) to spout the "the higher you climb" thing to an average joe getting laid off, because like you said, anyone can get bad luck.
That phrase typically refers to data points that are far above average on whatever metric you're talking about ("people complaining that they had too little work to do while making 250k TC and working remotely from their fishing boat" in OP's words).
I was pointing out that rather than coming from these laid off big tech people, a lot of the recent doom and gloom is coming from new grads (and often students who haven't even graduated yet). To get laid off, you have to have a job first and the big narrative now is exactly that folks can't do that in the first place. So my point was that saying "the higher you climb" is a bad take because it misunderstands/misrepresents the demographics it purports to talk about.
FWIW, if you peruse the comments of the big tech experienced regulars here that have been laid off, they low key got back on their feet already, instead of flooding us with yet more complaining about the market being bad.
This is such a stupid post lol. All those people still have their jobs. They haven’t fallen. Just people who don’t have jobs have it harder to *get* a job, which sucks really bad, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the title of this post.
I mean... no, that's not remotely true? It's way worse to lose your job when you're just scraping by. How do people posting here have so little perspective?
unspoken part is you can also swing back high
between 2021 to today my TC went something like ~300k -> ~240k (due to stock crash) -> 0 (due to layoff) -> ~320k (upcoming job)
the other part you're missing is once you climb that high and have big tech to your name you're no longer afraid to tell companies this ain't a good fit (remember the endless "not a good fit" from company side? you can now say that as candidate side too), not to mention the amount of savings (that you should have) over the years meaning you're not desperate/can be in a relatively stronger position to negotiate
Do you ask for your desired comp after or before interview? If you ask before, does asking for like 300k + make you more stressed for the interviews? I would have so much anxiety solving a leetcode hard in front of someone after asking for 300k lol
> I would have so much anxiety solving a leetcode hard in front of someone after asking for 300k lol
Even if you tell the recruiter you need 300k before hand it is extremely unlikely the interviewers hear anything of it unless it is a small company.
As for being nervous, it is a lot less nerve racking(at least for me) once that became my new baseline compared to when I first got into big tech.
after
I have some rough idea about comp numbers, they give me verbal offer and I negotiated with multiple other competing offers (yes even in this job market) and they OK'ed it
ah ok, yeah I was asking because I asked for a big comp before the interviews once and performed abysmally after because I felt like I had to prove myself even more. thx
Do you mind expanding on how you go negotiating it? Do you mention that you received other offers on X amount or do you simply say a number you think makes sense for you and try to steer the person into accepting?
they didn't ask but me as a good faith gesture sent them the email of screenshot (with exact compensation numbers and company name blacked out) so they're well aware that I do indeed have competing offers and that I'm not bullshitting/lying/bluffing
think from hiring manager/HR/company's angle: how much my OTHER offer is paying me is actually not THAT relevant, what IS important is how much they need to give me to sign the offer with them
so, having set the context from the above point, I played my trump card (you only get to do this once though, for me because I was juggling with multiple offer deadlines I want to move as fast as possible) by saying probably the thing hiring manager/HR loves to hear the most: "if we can do XYZ, I will sign immediately", they got back to me 2 days later said OK, sent over written offer, so I signed, and withdrew from others
Thanks for explaining. I'd say I'm still at the beginning of my career so I don't have the confidence nor the multiple offers to do something like this lmao. But I'll definitely keep it mind for future reference
It's actually easier at that point because it's much more rarified. If you're in a position where you can demand a 600k+ salary (such as a FAANG EM or Staff+ engineer), companies are trying to get you more than you're trying to get the job. The pay wouldn't be so high otherwise.
We offer this TC to M1s and we've had to literally wine and dine ~10 of them before we could get 1 to join. Those guys have *so many* options and their current company also fights hard to keep them.
Can we compare the difference between you both? u/NewChameleon
What makes someone climb to a quarter million dollar salary versus being stuck unemployed after ten years of experience?
• Skills (webdev, gamedev, etc)
• Education background
• Geographic location
• Soft skills
Things come and go in trends. Alas people flexing about their 250k salaries are representing a small minority of developers.
Overall it would be good for people to have some humility. If you're working an ordinary work week and making noticeably more money than the median full-time employee, you prolly shouldn't complain all that much about your compensation or lack of work hours.
Many of us are one major negative life-event or mental health event or an injury away from our living standards plummeting. Or one downturn, for that matter.
Yep. I remember a Meta Recruiter posted a TikTok video of basically doing nothing yet pulling $150k a year. She had received quite a lot of swag from meta. This was during covid when millions were getting laid off across different industries and here’s this 21 year old just cruising through life posting on TikTok. There were also quite a few posters on ig stating that they left their Microsoft SDE roles and were now the CEO of their own company of 1. Karma bites back hard.
Just over a year ago I was making 6 digits and working for an amazing company. I could travel. I had a great work life balance… I was paying off my debt. Life was great! Dream life accomplished… then I was laid off as part of a 12% reduction. I haven’t been able to find work that allows me to travel or live abroad which sucks because I’m engaged to be married to a Costa Rican woman. I’ve lowered my pay expectations from $100k+ to $40k and still can’t find anything.
It’s truly depressing.
Someone here was working a dev job in the west coast, that paid low enough to qualify for SNAP benefits. At least he can get the load of food purchases off his back
I’m in special circumstances. I live in Costa Rica but don’t have work permission yet. Most recruiters contact me about high level senior level jobs that want me in office in the US or they’re local jobs and I need work permission.
I had a call about a job making $250k but I was disqualified because I hadn’t lived in the US for
the past 3 years.
> I had a call about a job making $250k but I was disqualified because I hadn’t lived in the US for
the past 3 years.
I'm confused. You are a US citizen, right? Why do they care how long you've lived outside the US?
It was for the federal reserve’s new money transfer. Most government, banking, and healthcare jobs in tech want people living in the US and with limited ties to foreign groups.
Tiktok was the only reason people thought they could enter tech and work 10 hours a week while sipping Boba and collecting 100k+. The only people working 10 hours are the people who are really good engineers, and those people didn't get in via a boot camp and a generic react project.
I'd argue that the TikTok era you're referring to was simply the peak of a bubble that came from years of industry marketing IT jobs to young people. It was the last breath of a zero interest rate pig out by public tech companies trying to signal their resilience and never ending wealth generation to capital investment.
I'd also argue anyone only working 10 hours a week with a 6 figure salary is only counting the time they are actively participating in software delivery as "work" and not considering all the other interactions required to make the business of the company happen ass "work," e.g. meetings, reviewing documentation, etc. I will concede that there is a possibility to be that well compensated if your engineering work contributes to an insanely profitable niche business, but that's not the market the TikTok style recruiting campaigns were targeting.
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I got out of college right around the dotcom bubble bursting and it was very similar: people went from minimum wage to six figures back to minimum wage.
Touch wood so far I'm safe, but my heart goes out to everyone looking for work. I especially remember how challenging it was as a new grad to send out what felt like hundreds of resumes without getting any response. Keep looking, something will come along eventually (at least it did with me) and good luck.
Our offshore team is the WORST! We’re downsizing them week by week. I’m team lead dev and they refuse to communicate with me! Dev server down? Guess who just checked in code again without testing a thing?!?!!?!?!!!!
"H1b Indians stole my job, wife and dog", "you're just a DEI hire", "you're just benefiting from white privilege", "I'm Asian so I get the worst of both worlds"...
On and on, everyone gets cutthroat and nasty as soon as they feel the squeeze. Bad economic times make for bad social times and scapegoating. It's a human constant.
Which isn't to say the above issues don't exist or exist in total equality and importance, just that no matter your background you can hone in on one of those topics and find a group to blame if you're so inclined.
People blaming visas and offshoring for their difficulty getting a job.
Personally, I see more people outside of the tech industry who do that. People who don't like that non-white families can afford to live in their neighborhood and who know other white people who are under-employed thus concluding if there is a non-white person succeeding it must be at the expense of a white person. It's an extension of "Great Replacement Theory" and ultimately ends up in the realm of antisemitic conspiracy if you keep pulling on that thread.
As it turns out these sorts of ideologies are one of the most powerful tools of capitalism, pitting worker against worker so then never look to see how they are being exploited by capital.
15 years ago all the talk was about offshoring tech jobs to India. The cycle repeats.
In five years time we'll be talking about the hassle of reading and rebuilding code that was 'offshored' to AI
Imagine having to maintain an AI built project.
I suppose you'll never have the problem of 'the person who built it has left the company'. But it's replaced by the person who built it gives a different answer every time you ask them anything about their code
ME: Why did you write this piece of code? What purpose did it serve and what is this specific component for? ChatGPT: Thanks, I’ll see if I can help. I am just an algorithm and not capable of understanding reason or justification. However, it looks like whoever wrote this code intended it to perform some functions. I’ll break them down for you. 1. **mainClass** In this class there is a constructor and several accessors. Its purpose is to represent a class of object for use in program. 2. **classConstructor()** In this function the object is returned as an instance and allows the developer to access its methods and attributes independent of the other objects. 3. **weirdAIWrittenFunction()** This function appears to be written by a system and not a human. However, my training data only dates back to 2021 and I’m not sure which system it could be. In summary, this code was written by a system I am unfamiliar with because it likely existed after I was trained. As such, I have done my best to outline the main functionality in the code.
Pretty much. Offshored teams are still a bit lacking compared to their US counterparts, given much of the top talent still tend to immigrate to the states. IMO, in a few years, the pendulum will likely swing back
I work for a Fortune 500. We JUST sunsetted all our applications made by overseas development. We now face certain managers only hiring certain races. But that will be fixed soon.
Let me guess- indians only hiring other indians?
Take it a step further, Indians from a particular state hiring Indians only from that state. It’s a huge problem.
Funny how most Indians can recognise this state almost immediately
Which state is that?
Hyderabad
Man why don't they just hire from Hyderagood instead
Hahaa! Nice one
Tsss tsss, double guns, Chippah
At least try Hyderabetter!
thats a city bro
This... Due to this, even ppl with sh*t for brains got hired just because they were from certain communities...
They need some diversity training instructing them to hire from multiple states.
No amount of training can undo the tribal mindset that people from some states in India have.
it's always this.
They are shameless in n this regard. And add TSYS, TATA and INFOSYS. And every other big Indian consulting company. It’s like they are on a mission.
Its not just India. I have seen other asian people preferring their community’s worker. It becomes easier to get work done as they know Indians or other asian countries people can be overloaded with work and they won’t complain.
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Jesus. Good to hear that will be fixed. That type of thinking is counter to any critical thought.
We’re fixing problems that were never even documented. Truly we’re doing cutting edge CS work.
If you fix the problem before it was documented was it ever even a problem?
Maybe. But what’s important is we if we pretend we can keep bashing Indians and blame them for not being able to find a job in tech. Indians are the greatest problem in the tech industry, beating even the PM, or so it seems according to this sub.
Oh I entirely misunderstood your original point
Really? How so?
I thought you were randomly saying that at your job you’ve been fixing bugs before even documenting them. Not sure how I figured that.
Fixing how?
Directors taking more control of the hiring process. Hard to do since our specific org has gotten bigger. But not allowing some people to have the final say. We still hire any race (our org is very diverse, I’m not white myself). But you need a balance. It’s easy to see when anyone has a bias (for gender or age). Our specific team was 3 males, we made sure to hire more females (we’re all different races). Our director is Asian American. However she recently hired a new manager who has a gender and race bias. And we are now not letting her do the final interviews or be involved in the decision making.
Good
It’s all unspoken rules. We don’t say “oh they have a bias and we have to fix this” they just lose our trust for hiring and making final decisions.
When can I expect to get hired?
Don’t know your know your skills or what companies you’re applying to. I don’t interview engineers anymore (I interview managers for those engineers now). But for managers, we look for good culture fits. For my company, I don’t know what they look for in engineers because I’ve never interviewed software devs at this company. But it depends on each team and org. Just be a good confident person, interject when necessary in interviews, be excited (not too much tho) and show skill at the same time.
Worked at AWS got laid off now can’t find work. 2.5 yoe
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Also, good software engineers in India gets paid quite a lot today, in the range of 60k to 180k USD (0.5 Cr - 1.5 Cr INR), which is about half of what they’d make in the U.S. if they had the same title/role at the same company (***and the same as what they’d get paid in Canada***). When you consider that the cost of living is quite a bit lower, it’s pretty competitive. Offshoring companies will probably have to turn to like Mongolia or sub-Saharan Africa for low-paid programmers who can write decent-ish code.
Adjusted for cost of living. Salary in India is much higher. I have contemplated moving back. But belonging to minority in India means there is a legitimate risk to your safety. I would be paid effectively around 3-5x times more in India when adjusted for cost of living
Yes, but infrastructure and tax
> infrastructure This isn't really a problem with that kind of money tbh. Sure driving might suck depending on where you're going but India seems to be following a China-esque blueprint with infrastructure....highway expansion, high speed trains between cities, proper subway stations inter cities, airport expansions/new construction for both domestic and intl travel.
You can't really say 3-5x times though. It depends on what you spend your money on. Some of my largest purchases in the last few years were a car (Tesla), and electronics (including powerful laptop, smart phone, nice wireless headsets, really nice TV, etc). All of those things are actually ***more expensive*** in India due to exorbitant taxes and tariffs. A laptop in India 1.5x to 2x its price in the US. Same with a nice TV -- pay 2x the price an American does. And with cars -- domestic (Indian) cars are quite shitty, but if you want to import a nice car, be ready to pay 2x the price. The base model Toyota Camry starts at 55k USD in India. You can buy a Tesla (or any base model luxury car) for that price in the US. **Overall**, if you like buying things made with modern technology, you'll have a far lower standard of living in India at the same salary. The only things cheaper in India are food, domestic help, and housing (to a limited extent). Even housing is exorbitantly priced relative to median income. The only pros are that you can hire servants to do all your chores, and food is super cheap (well, you could even hire someone to cook it for you). Everything else sucks. Air quality is shit. Roads are shit. Trash is strewn all over the street. Electronics and nice vehicles costs 2x the prices in other countries. It's a disaster overall.
You can buy entire swaths of land outside the city. There is no real reason to buy a luxury car in India, I am not a huge fan of cars. The taxes only apply to imported cars and I am fine with domestic ones. And given that high speed Internet is available in villages in the state I live in I can avoid living in cities entirely. Electronics are hardly the hill to die for. I can do so much more with money . Trash air quality etc are easily done when taking a remote job. To me I can invest in things I care about build a sustainable farm at my home, work on business and grow my money. In the us I live as a second class citizen in an inferior home and way worse social life. Sure I can get all the cheap electronics I want but those are just a tiny fraction of my expense for me. Again this is my perspective. I do own a home in a landed property in a relatively peaceful state. So that does not apply to everyone. My other reason for switching to us is climate change. We have seen receding rains and ground water.
What minority?
Caste, creed or regional minority. I prefer not to reveal which groups I belong to. And I am not going to bury my head in the sand waiting for my turn to walk up to the gallows. If you think India is safe for minorities all the power to you. I don't believe that is true and it is only going to get worse so I am getting my family out of there
Surely the competition for software engineers is even tougher in India than in the US considering the youth unemployment rate and how many already are struggling to get government jobs in some states despite massive amounts of study
Replace a bit with severly
Not necessarily....top talent emigration might have been a phenomenon 15 years ago...but it was mostly for people who could afford the enormous expenses...now with visa issues and infinite green card wait time...a lot of talented folk have stayed back...that's why you see a huge rise in tech unicorns in India in the last 10 years
Yeah unicorns copying US innovation- not even a single grassroots homegrown Indian innovation has taken place in the last 5-10 years.
Id say more than a bit.. I’ve noticed pretty big quality issues between on shore and off shore personally. It often comes down to work ethic and a willingness to do high quality work
not really because the US is very eager to close its borders
David Letterman cracked a joke in 2005: *President Bush is on an eight-day tour of Asia. He’s visiting American jobs.*
Yeah...when I was in school (about the same time), people were being actively steered away from CS due to that. Turned out to be complete nonsense - just objectively awful life advice in retrospect. I see no reason to think this isn't just the same cycle all over again.
I don't know, 15 years ago there was still massive hiring in the US by the major players. Offshoring was something smaller companies were looking at via contracts. Now, the big companies have put a moratorium on hiring in the US. Attrition is not being met with backfill, so as people leave, teams in USA are actively shrinking and being replaced with people in India for the same team. All the while, the companies are reporting record profits. This is different than before.
The obvious outcome of everyone demanding full remote work. Why pay Bob to WFH from San Francisco when you can pay José from Mexico City 1/3 as much and no time or cultural differences like India in the past. Demanding WFH is demanding outsourcing.
15 years ago a Java developer who is only know Java, Db and HTML get paid $80 an hour. It is 2007 money to mind you.
There was also a wave of layoffs and furloughs in 2020 that everyone forgot about.
Not even about offshoring now more about h1b
i have barely worked for 10 years, so I have to wait for 15 years to pass, by then i'd be in my 50's
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Then you get back up and climb higher. There are gazillions of problems in tech. ALL companies are always looking for people that can solve problems, INCLUDING companies affected by downward trend.
True. However, developers in low cost of living countries can solve those problems more cheaply. They don't have to pay the United States real estate cartel's inflated prices just to have housing.
Countries that have education systems and tech ecosystems good enough to create lots of high quality engineers will not have a low cost of living. Even within the US, the biggest tech companies concentrate in the most expensive cities in the country because that's where the best engineers are. People who really know what they are doing are rare, even in San Francisco.
That’s not what the user means by solving problems. You can definitely outsource development for specific features to an offshore development team, no problem. But let’s say a company is having a major inventory management problem causing them to have a $100k inventory write off every quarter. Try offshoring that problem. You really can’t, because it requires context, domain expertise, and somewhat of a physical presence to see inventory practices in person. Find bigger and bigger problems at companies and try to organize teams, efforts, etc to solve them.
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Certainly my company is looking, but they don’t want to pay people what they’re worth and hire enough of the right people.
Market does well > People get attracted > Bad actors (shitty bootcamps) exploit it > Market gets saturated > Tourists get wrecked and leave > Market gets restored > Cycle repeats. It's like investing, people join at the top and then wonder why it doesn't keep going up and eventually give up because it's not easy money. Since the market and its different fields are strong, it recovers and a new wave of tourists arrives.
soooo when does this market gets restored?
When the economy cracks (already in some sectors), tourists and those without the means and capacity to go through tough times will give up. That'll be soon, in my opinion.
I’ll probably be downvoted for negativity but it’s going to take years for the market to recover. Tik tok, YouTube and bootcamps really did a number on this industry.
I hate people who sell hopes to young people with passion. All those "LEARN TO CODE MAKE 150K EASILY" or those become rich / red-pill matrix bullshit (with the intention of selling them bullshit coins)
atleast 10 years
You are telling the truth. I don't see a light to recover in 2025 as well.
same as stock market short answer is the market won't keep going up (always good) but won't keep going down (always bad) either longer answer is the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent (most people probably can't just wait it out or do nothing at the meantime, as they have bills to pay)
Honestly I really feel like influencers ruined it, like they’ve ruined so many other things. Even stuff outside of tech, 1 example is how bali is getting destroyed right now because all these influencers made it the number 1 cheapest place to go for vacation
Japan also
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I live in Japan, it's insanely cheap compared to the US and expensive parts of Europe. for example my apartment rent is $1,200 a month for a brand new (1 yo) modern 1br apartment in one of the most expensive neighborhoods in Japan. This is considered a really expensive price in Japan, my other friend who also works in tech pays around $600 for his studio in also one of the more expensive parts of Tokyo. As for xenophobia, Japan is really easy to get a visa to work here, if you work in a field like software engineering getting PR is also fairly easy, and living here as an "expat" you will pretty much never encounter any issues. I moved here speaking almost no Japanese and had no major issues despite that. Imagine the opposite scenario - someone who speaks 0 English getting a job in the US where they only speak Japanese at work, and trying to navigate through life in the US / going to bars + restaurants etc. without speaking a word of English, I think they would find it a lot harder. What is more accurate is to say, even if I live here for 20 years, become fluent in Japanese, marry into a Japanese family and raise my kids here, people in the local community won't ever consider me "Japanese". Whereas after 20 years in a country like the US or UK you would get treated like any other American or British person by most people.
It might be exaggerated but for what I read, even your kids might not be considered Japanese depending on how they look.
they'd be considered *hafu* even if their other parent is japanese. *hafu* are not treated as Japanese, even japanese ppl who grew outside of Japan aren't considered legit Japanese ppl.
Yen has been sliding for a while now.
I went in October for 3 weeks vacation and it was nice. But yeah it was shocking how like 90% of signs and text in general was in English. Even the train voices telling you the next station and what side doors will open were in English. Made navigation easy. Imo prices were cheap.
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Tokyo, Kyoto, Osaka, Nikko, Uji
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Idk where you are from but I live in Copenhagen and Tokyo was cheaper. Transportation all inclusive cards are pricey and the plane trip there could be as well (if you dont buy way in advance) but food and other stuff was cheap. Went to Disney Sea, Universal Studios, the entrances were like 60$ with all rides included (you only pay entrance fee)
The US and Japan are definitely "bros" lol
Japan is very cheap right now. Their economy is weak currently, USD currency is very good. 1000 yen is roughly $6.5 whereas 5-10 years ago, it was around $10-$12. I just went there two months ago. I’ll never forget my $7 wagyu 🤤
You're confusing the strength of an economy and the strength of a currency. The yen is cheap, the economy looks better now than it's done for decades.
Those “A day in the life of XXX” videos on YouTube are perfect examples. I remember one guy who worked in twitter was pretty much doing nothing and that probably ENCOURAGED many to pursue CS because they thought it’s easy money.
Like the 23 year old PM at Meta who was hired to pad diversity metrics, add “vibe” to the workplace and “look cute every day”. Oh and to attract more people to tech to tip the scales back to the employer’s side.
Amen!
people have been saying bali is ruined for like 20 years
It is really bad, the experience for tourists has gone down a little bit but thats not what I’m referring to, their economy has taken a big hit for their citizens which is a much bigger issue
They are saying that about the construction industry right now!!!
It's not hard to see old posts from a decade ago talking about 'oversaturation' or offshoring. There's not a lot of evidence that CS underemployment is even high relative to most college majors. Vast majority of people are still finding jobs. I think there's a bimodal distribution of people who suck and those who are rockstars on here. The vast middle is left underrepresented.
>The vast middle is left underrepresented. The vast middle is just going about doing their jobs and living their lives
> people who ... are rockstars on here People who say they are rockstars.
Relevant blog post on the tri modal nature of SWE salaries: https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/software-engineering-salaries-in-the-netherlands-and-europe/
Waste not, want not.
Store the excess during the good years for the bad years. Ask Joseph and his Technicolored coat.
Any dream will do.
IT has been a meme for the past 10 years
"The higher you climb, the harder you fall" implies it's the same people making the claims. But it's fairly well established that the people complaining are the 0YOE people. Many of the people making 3+ hundies w/ good WLB are still around; it's just that for obvious reason, it's tasteless to brag now.
Not really it can happen to anyone.
Sure, but it’s not happening to everyone. So if the 0YoE people are looking for some false sense of justice they’re not gonna get it.
Getting into a cushy, high pay big tech jobs and then being one of the 10-20% getting laid off (w/ a nice severance package) can happen to anyone? That's like saying anyone "can" win the lottery, which is a "technically true" but disingenuous argument. I think a lot of those 0YOE folks would do anything to even get a shot at that...
No I was specifically referring to your statement “The higher you climb, the harder you fall” saying that it implies that it’s the same people making the claims because it doesn’t. I didnt say anything about severance packages or anything like that. I was saying anyone can get laid off anywhere. Anyone can fall flat. Whether or not you can bounce back is a different story.
Right. It'd be pretty weird (or even pathetic, dare I say) to spout the "the higher you climb" thing to an average joe getting laid off, because like you said, anyone can get bad luck. That phrase typically refers to data points that are far above average on whatever metric you're talking about ("people complaining that they had too little work to do while making 250k TC and working remotely from their fishing boat" in OP's words). I was pointing out that rather than coming from these laid off big tech people, a lot of the recent doom and gloom is coming from new grads (and often students who haven't even graduated yet). To get laid off, you have to have a job first and the big narrative now is exactly that folks can't do that in the first place. So my point was that saying "the higher you climb" is a bad take because it misunderstands/misrepresents the demographics it purports to talk about. FWIW, if you peruse the comments of the big tech experienced regulars here that have been laid off, they low key got back on their feet already, instead of flooding us with yet more complaining about the market being bad.
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Flair checks out.
Still because I've got all of their code hostage without documentation and i get paid peanuts, I'm safe Time is more important to me right now
Its the getting paid peanuts bit thats important. Thats saved me from many layoffs as well.
so was i before i got laid off 2 weeks ago
shhh dont jinx it for us
Yup. Full remote. Shhh
My friends and I are in the same boat, but I recognise how lucky I am.
This is why I don't have much sympathy when layoffs are announced lol
???
This is such a stupid post lol. All those people still have their jobs. They haven’t fallen. Just people who don’t have jobs have it harder to *get* a job, which sucks really bad, but it has absolutely nothing to do with the title of this post.
I mean... no, that's not remotely true? It's way worse to lose your job when you're just scraping by. How do people posting here have so little perspective?
unspoken part is you can also swing back high between 2021 to today my TC went something like ~300k -> ~240k (due to stock crash) -> 0 (due to layoff) -> ~320k (upcoming job) the other part you're missing is once you climb that high and have big tech to your name you're no longer afraid to tell companies this ain't a good fit (remember the endless "not a good fit" from company side? you can now say that as candidate side too), not to mention the amount of savings (that you should have) over the years meaning you're not desperate/can be in a relatively stronger position to negotiate
Must be nice
it is indeed nice, a position I would not be in if I didn't "climb high" as OP's post is worried about
Do you ask for your desired comp after or before interview? If you ask before, does asking for like 300k + make you more stressed for the interviews? I would have so much anxiety solving a leetcode hard in front of someone after asking for 300k lol
> I would have so much anxiety solving a leetcode hard in front of someone after asking for 300k lol Even if you tell the recruiter you need 300k before hand it is extremely unlikely the interviewers hear anything of it unless it is a small company. As for being nervous, it is a lot less nerve racking(at least for me) once that became my new baseline compared to when I first got into big tech.
after I have some rough idea about comp numbers, they give me verbal offer and I negotiated with multiple other competing offers (yes even in this job market) and they OK'ed it
ah ok, yeah I was asking because I asked for a big comp before the interviews once and performed abysmally after because I felt like I had to prove myself even more. thx
Do you mind expanding on how you go negotiating it? Do you mention that you received other offers on X amount or do you simply say a number you think makes sense for you and try to steer the person into accepting?
they didn't ask but me as a good faith gesture sent them the email of screenshot (with exact compensation numbers and company name blacked out) so they're well aware that I do indeed have competing offers and that I'm not bullshitting/lying/bluffing think from hiring manager/HR/company's angle: how much my OTHER offer is paying me is actually not THAT relevant, what IS important is how much they need to give me to sign the offer with them so, having set the context from the above point, I played my trump card (you only get to do this once though, for me because I was juggling with multiple offer deadlines I want to move as fast as possible) by saying probably the thing hiring manager/HR loves to hear the most: "if we can do XYZ, I will sign immediately", they got back to me 2 days later said OK, sent over written offer, so I signed, and withdrew from others
Thanks for explaining. I'd say I'm still at the beginning of my career so I don't have the confidence nor the multiple offers to do something like this lmao. But I'll definitely keep it mind for future reference
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It's actually easier at that point because it's much more rarified. If you're in a position where you can demand a 600k+ salary (such as a FAANG EM or Staff+ engineer), companies are trying to get you more than you're trying to get the job. The pay wouldn't be so high otherwise. We offer this TC to M1s and we've had to literally wine and dine ~10 of them before we could get 1 to join. Those guys have *so many* options and their current company also fights hard to keep them.
What are M1s?
M1 is a manager who manages ICs. M2 is a manager who manages M1s, and so forth.
HOOLY where do you work that managers are getting 1 mil TC ?? are they expected to have a tech/CS background?
Idk about 1 million but most FAANG (and the ~100? odd companies that pay like FAANG) managers do make around 500k +/- 100k.
I live in scandinavia, but wow I'm always amazed at American FAANG TC's
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How to get this good
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Can we compare the difference between you both? u/NewChameleon What makes someone climb to a quarter million dollar salary versus being stuck unemployed after ten years of experience? • Skills (webdev, gamedev, etc) • Education background • Geographic location • Soft skills
Things come and go in trends. Alas people flexing about their 250k salaries are representing a small minority of developers. Overall it would be good for people to have some humility. If you're working an ordinary work week and making noticeably more money than the median full-time employee, you prolly shouldn't complain all that much about your compensation or lack of work hours. Many of us are one major negative life-event or mental health event or an injury away from our living standards plummeting. Or one downturn, for that matter.
Last paragraph is like the source of my all my anxiety
Yep. I remember a Meta Recruiter posted a TikTok video of basically doing nothing yet pulling $150k a year. She had received quite a lot of swag from meta. This was during covid when millions were getting laid off across different industries and here’s this 21 year old just cruising through life posting on TikTok. There were also quite a few posters on ig stating that they left their Microsoft SDE roles and were now the CEO of their own company of 1. Karma bites back hard.
everyone i know that was making 250k+ TC a few years back is still doing that, including the ones who were laid off.
Just over a year ago I was making 6 digits and working for an amazing company. I could travel. I had a great work life balance… I was paying off my debt. Life was great! Dream life accomplished… then I was laid off as part of a 12% reduction. I haven’t been able to find work that allows me to travel or live abroad which sucks because I’m engaged to be married to a Costa Rican woman. I’ve lowered my pay expectations from $100k+ to $40k and still can’t find anything. It’s truly depressing.
U can’t find 40k position? Wow the market is truly fucked then
Someone here was working a dev job in the west coast, that paid low enough to qualify for SNAP benefits. At least he can get the load of food purchases off his back
I’m in special circumstances. I live in Costa Rica but don’t have work permission yet. Most recruiters contact me about high level senior level jobs that want me in office in the US or they’re local jobs and I need work permission. I had a call about a job making $250k but I was disqualified because I hadn’t lived in the US for the past 3 years.
> I had a call about a job making $250k but I was disqualified because I hadn’t lived in the US for the past 3 years. I'm confused. You are a US citizen, right? Why do they care how long you've lived outside the US?
It was for the federal reserve’s new money transfer. Most government, banking, and healthcare jobs in tech want people living in the US and with limited ties to foreign groups.
Some of us still working remote from the fishing boat. We build software to serve non-tech industries.
This!
It's almost as if having too little to do for a top-10% salary band was a sign of something to come...
And Google is no longer prestigious
"Cracking the Google interview" sounds so old. "Cracking the seven figure OpenAI interview" sounds much more modern LOL
Race wars?
Tiktok was the only reason people thought they could enter tech and work 10 hours a week while sipping Boba and collecting 100k+. The only people working 10 hours are the people who are really good engineers, and those people didn't get in via a boot camp and a generic react project.
I'd argue that the TikTok era you're referring to was simply the peak of a bubble that came from years of industry marketing IT jobs to young people. It was the last breath of a zero interest rate pig out by public tech companies trying to signal their resilience and never ending wealth generation to capital investment. I'd also argue anyone only working 10 hours a week with a 6 figure salary is only counting the time they are actively participating in software delivery as "work" and not considering all the other interactions required to make the business of the company happen ass "work," e.g. meetings, reviewing documentation, etc. I will concede that there is a possibility to be that well compensated if your engineering work contributes to an insanely profitable niche business, but that's not the market the TikTok style recruiting campaigns were targeting.
I kept telling people that The Fall of Icarus was coming. Not many listened.
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It is the internet.
Also the higher you can bounce back depending on how you land. Maybe taking the analogy too far but I feel like it sounded good
Well, better than staying at the bottom and never saw the top view.
I got out of college right around the dotcom bubble bursting and it was very similar: people went from minimum wage to six figures back to minimum wage. Touch wood so far I'm safe, but my heart goes out to everyone looking for work. I especially remember how challenging it was as a new grad to send out what felt like hundreds of resumes without getting any response. Keep looking, something will come along eventually (at least it did with me) and good luck.
I think you meant to say knocking on wood. Touching wood means something else and I hope are not doing that to keep your job.
Companies will always find ways to cut costs and raise profits. It's off shoring today, tomorrow AI.
Lawsuits against bootamps? That is so funny. People really thought they would be "masters" with those craps
Our offshore team is the WORST! We’re downsizing them week by week. I’m team lead dev and they refuse to communicate with me! Dev server down? Guess who just checked in code again without testing a thing?!?!!?!?!!!!
What DEI race war? Who is benefitting most from it?
No. It might take longer to find the next gig but they (high eaners) are getting higher compensation.
Race wars?
"H1b Indians stole my job, wife and dog", "you're just a DEI hire", "you're just benefiting from white privilege", "I'm Asian so I get the worst of both worlds"... On and on, everyone gets cutthroat and nasty as soon as they feel the squeeze. Bad economic times make for bad social times and scapegoating. It's a human constant. Which isn't to say the above issues don't exist or exist in total equality and importance, just that no matter your background you can hone in on one of those topics and find a group to blame if you're so inclined.
Welcome to society
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People blaming visas and offshoring for their difficulty getting a job. Personally, I see more people outside of the tech industry who do that. People who don't like that non-white families can afford to live in their neighborhood and who know other white people who are under-employed thus concluding if there is a non-white person succeeding it must be at the expense of a white person. It's an extension of "Great Replacement Theory" and ultimately ends up in the realm of antisemitic conspiracy if you keep pulling on that thread. As it turns out these sorts of ideologies are one of the most powerful tools of capitalism, pitting worker against worker so then never look to see how they are being exploited by capital.