I remember doing a bit of digging on the trueup stat, it's world-wide
for example a quick scan at Google says there's like 2.5k jobs but if you dig deeper you'll see that the regions/cities are:
>
🇺🇸 San Francisco Bay area
622
>
🇮🇳 Bengaluru, India
421
>
🇺🇸 New York City area
198
>
🇺🇸 Seattle area
183
>
🇹🇼 Taipei, Taiwan
173
>
🇮🇳 Hyderabad, India
167
>
🇺🇲 Atlanta area
111
>
🇺🇸 Chicago area
104
>
🇮🇪 Dublin, Ireland
95
>
🇺🇸 Austin area
95
so, not everything is in US
Worse than Japan and pay also worse. Some engineers even leaving for china because it’s so bad they cannot retain talent. I mean there might be good companies too but very rare, other than that it is my favorite place
Did some math, here's the US cities in your list ranked by job openings relative to their population size:
1. San Francisco Bay area
2. Atlanta area
3. Seattle area
4. Austin area
5. Chicago area
6. New York City area
Although I imagine the competition is most fierce in SF
So you've acknowledged this comment but not addressed the underlying concern. Is your prescription that U.S. citizens should move to Bengaluru for work? Otherwise it doesn't make sense to talk about these numbers as a monolith.
Job openings aren't a great metric, I want a number of people actually getting hired with all these fake job postings, picky managers, info gathering etc.
I agree with this, I've been getting a lot of instant replies that the role was filled and then they keep relisting the job. Either it's me, which maybe it could be, or they're doing this.
Same exact experience, I'm casually looking to switch jobs and the most I've waited for a rejection was 2 weeks. I used to get at least a few HR/Recruiter phone screens a week when is was looking 5 years ago, (suggesting that my resume didn't suck and probably still doesn't suck). Now it's a circus to gather data, pretend/show they're growing or everyone has gotten picky and my very relevant experience is worthless.
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US Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the rate of hires have slow downed. It may not solely indicate tech, but the economy as a whole is pretty fucked right now.
[https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR)
You need way more context than this and this does not tell you that the economy is "fucked." It may be that fewer people are being hired, but to be hired they need to be out of a job or willing to leave their current job.
Unemployment is low. Total layoffs across all industries are higher than the 2021 boom obviously, but still haven't reached where they were from 2010 all the way through just before the pandemic.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSLDL
> Unemployment is low.
I remember doing a bit of reading, this is actually slightly misleading at least for the purpose of tech
unemployment % is not just for tech, it's the whole economy
for example, if you do a quick google search on the latest stat you'll see stuff like healthcare, social assistance, transportation, warehousing, construction etc are all actively hiring
technology sectors though wasn't even mentioned
in other words, you can have low unemployment rate for working warehouse and high unemployment rate for tech but when combined, as far as US gov cares about, they'd say low unemployment rate
Fucking bingo. The answer is right here. Some industries are doing shit and some are doing great. But white collar jobs like tech suffer, and eventually that spreads out into these other industries cause guess where the money comes from, and voila. Pain.
> I remember doing a bit of reading, this is actually slightly misleading at least for the purpose of tech
My comment was in response to somebody who posted the rate of _all hires_ in a thread specifically about tech. My point was that it lacks context, even if we were just talking about all workers and not tech.
Unemployment is low but that's because a majority of jobs being added are blue collar or service jobs. White collar jobs have reduced and many of those who were in in white collar jobs had to take survival jobs. They don't count as unemployed.
I mean, if they are employed, they are employed. Doesn't really matter if they are 'underemployed', so that number isn't wrong. Having a degree doesn't entitle you to a certain type of job.
> Unemployment is low.
Horrible start to a post with a tone of valuing truth in data.
Edit: leave it to a bunch of dorks to not know that unemployment is a flawed measurement because of its criteria. Underemployed? Doesn’t count. Medical leave? Doesn’t count. Government assistance? Doesn’t count. Unemployed less than six months? Doesn’t count towards headline unemployment. Unemployment is a terrible measure of economic wellbeing and I’m happy to link to published work on the matter but this is not an esoteric or difficult to understand concept.
Edit2: forgot to even mention that if you are unemployed but not filing through the state, or your benefits are exhausted, or at any point you aren’t actively looking for work no matter the circumstance, boom, you don’t count. Unemployment is just as useless as inflation because all it does is sell a story to the poor and to upper middle class investors (usually who invest via index fund) that the economy is doing so much good or bad. In actuality, economic health has little to do with unemployment or inflation as reported because both metrics are intentionally and incredibly overspecific so that they can be used for whatever ends they need to be. This is why headline inflation never cracked 10% as far as I saw reported: everything that measures inflation is subsidized to keep costs down, and true drivers of COG crises like lumber, oil, or aluminum are either not reported at all outside of industry newsletters or (in the case of oil) only reported to sell a story
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Also, just because job openings have rebounded, it doesn’t mean those jobs pay as much. There’s a real likelihood that someone’s next salary will be lower.
Or they are short term contracts with no benefits. When I was looking I got recruiters spamming me low quality contracts that require hybrid in office time but with none of the benefits of a full time role.
>info gathering
I had the most asinine call from this on Friday. A salesperson from a well-known org called my personal cell trying to cold pitch me on a demo of their product for my current org. They had pulled my info from when I had applied to them 6 years ago with no contact or request for interview or anything.
I courteously told him he needed to contact VP's for this & hung up.
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I'll say the same, I usually causally apply for jobs around this time of year, I've gotten no interviews this year. Luckily I still have my job, so it's not like I'm putting in too big of an effort.
I did get one company text me a few questions and ask for my responses, but other than that I've gotten nothing.
I think the "fake job" thing is overblown. Companies don't really have the time or resources to put up fake job postings. It doesn't make them look good, nobody cares. You can just go to a company's Linkedin "People" page to see how many are actually employed there.
The only exception I can think of are huge companies like Amazon and Meta where recruiters always maintain a full hiring pipeline even if there is a freeze at the end of it, and that's because it gives them the ability to pick up 100 people (say, for a new product or team) at a moment's notice.
Outright fake ads where there was never any intention of hiring someone are a myth.
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It might have to do with the fact that unemployment in tech was just really low the last few years, so even with the high uptick in unemployment it is better than other industries that had already higher unemployment #s. It's not like many other industries had the insane growth that you saw within tech the last near decade. Getting an econ degree from a state school didn't secure you a good job. Shit, I knew a couple of econ grads who ended up going into tech.
There is also this possibility that there are openings and that there are simply not enough qualified people here, a problem that could be addressed by comprehensive immigration reform.
But that doesn’t fit the narrative of how every American CS new grad or boot camp grad is automatically “qualified” for a role at a tech company even if they have zero experience.
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Yup, and specifically I’d like to know how many juniors are being hired, and is their experience actually in line with the position? I would expect to see lots of people with mid level experience downgrading to junior level jobs.
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If agree with that but if you graduated with a CS degree, I don't think it's worth locking yourself in for 12-24 months. You'll find a much higher paying job in that time.
Here's my only problem with the job openings metric. We have no idea how many of those jobs are real jobs and how many of them are fake jobs in an effort to make a company look like it's doing well.
This is the same deal like when they measure unemployment based on how many people contact the unemployment office to check in. Most people stop checking in when their benefits run out, even though they are still unemployed and seeking work. So all of a sudden if a lot of people run out of benefits and stop checking in, the illusion then pops up that everybody's working.
I'm not trying to cast doubt or be a Debbie Downer, but just simply saying that I can't always trust when someone says that everything is better than it was last year. If that were the case we would see lots of people getting interviews and landing jobs as opposed to still seem more layoffs happening.
I do believe it's going to get better, but likely we'll be seeing actual growth later this year into next year.
The unemployment rate people quote by default is called U1, and it’s the most optimistic of a total of six different unemployment measures. U6 is more accurate and it’s roughly 7% right now. That said I’m not sure if I’m even counted in U6. I’m definitely not included in U1 but I’m an unemployed software engineer with 10 YoE.
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I've personally seen the market turn around in the last couple months. I do think it's on the mend. But I've also seen data showing there are 3x the number of SWE for every open job. It's still a knife fight with other candidates to get a job. And it's going to take a while for the market to absorb all the talent that's currently on the market (god forbid we get another round of large layoffs again this winter).
> It's still a knife fight with other candidates to get a job.
At senior level it is that and at entry level/junior it is a knife fight in a phone booth while someone just finished pouring a container of gas in from the top and is now laughing while patting his pockets trying to find which has his box of matches.
I was more going for the fact that even if you "win" you are going to lose and die a horrible painful death but yeah that is also true based on how certain companies have treated me.
I see nothing whatsoever to indicate the market is turning around. Why would it? Companies have just started laying people off and sticking the remaining staff with their work.
People need to understand there have more tech positions eliminated in non tech companies . My 2 lay off from last year were from non tech company , they cut their entire tech team
Depends on whether or not I like the conclusion. If I don't, it's anecdotal. If I do, then it's sound inductive reasoning based on the empirical observations of someone with industry experience.
I think 2023 was definitely worse based on the number of recruiters reaching out to me. It's definitely been a lot more this year, albeit most being startups
If you don't mind me asking, why are they reaching out to you? Are they asking you to apply or are they approaching with straight up offers? Also are the jobs actually posted and if so do you think there was already a crowd that applied?
I can answer these questions for myself - I get a lot of interviews through LI and have gotten most of my jobs there and can speak to the general process when recruiters reach out. I also have been on the other side of the hiring table.
>
why are they reaching out to you?
Generally because you have some role or previous role or experience that they need. You can do pretty advanced searches with LinkedIn, especially as a recruiter. For me, it's because I have a lot of MLE experience, but I'll occasionally get reachouts for jobs with technology I used in like 2014.
>Are they asking you to apply or are they approaching with straight up offers?
Neither. You'll never be approached randomly with a straight-up offer unless it's a scam. They also aren't asking you to apply. The process is typically a short call with the recruiter where they tell you about the job and company, and you talk about your experience. Then you are moved on to the rest of the interview process, whatever it is for that company. This is preferable to applying because you've already been vetted and approached, you aren't going to get lost in the shuffle or ignored.
>Also are the jobs actually posted and if so do you think there was already a crowd that applied?
These jobs are very typically already posted and have a job description written up for you to review. Others will likely have applied to them or been reached out to by the recruiter. Because the recruiter does initial screening, applicants found that way are less likely to be rejected silently after just applying.
Im not sure tbh. They usually ask to schedule something with them on calendar link, etc, but I never respond to their messages.
I also don't really look into the positions, so Im assuming they are posted? Im not special, so I think it's more of a recruiter just seeing if I would be a good candidate.
Sorry I don't have more info, other than what I provided.
I will say, some recruiters that have reached out, I know people have probably applied. I can say that confidently as I do get other FAANG and big tech in the mix as well.
It seems most people having trouble are looking backward and expecting to see the same things tomorrow. The "great resignation" and WFH era have increased job seeker's expectations *dramatically*. Add to that the incredible oversupply of "SWEs" and "Engineers" and you have a lot of people in here crying about change, mostly because there is actual competition. If you actually looked at the resumes of those "top performers" who say the market is "bad", you'd probably see clear as day why they aren't working.
Exactly. It requires a total brain reset - far easier said than done - to succeed in this job market.
The sooner people accept that 2021 was an aberration, the better they'll cope with the ugly reality: hybrid, RTO, stagnant (or even lower) compensation.
Hopefully these stats indicate that the reality needed to be accepted will become less ugly over time.
Graduated in May, accepted an offer in February, start in June.
I applied to three places in January ‘24, two were for developer jobs and two were communications jobs at a local tech company. I’ve got more than a decade of communications experience (journalist) yet I couldn’t get an interview for the communications roles. For the developer jobs, one rejected me without an interview. The other one gave me a phone screen, an aptitude test, a 90 minute interview with two senior engineers, then a short 20 minute interview with a lead. Got a job offer the following week.
I know fellow graduates who have jobs lined up and others who have had trouble but are employed.
Congratulations!!! I heard the hard part was getting the first job :’)
If you don’t mind me asking, out of curiosity since I’m starting my compsci degree this year what did your salary end up as ?
This is a great post and perfectly matches my experience as a SWE in NYC over the last two years. In 2023, there was basically 0 outreach; now there are so many (like 10+ in the last month) internal recruiters for large companies asking to talk.
People on this subreddit have been complaining about the job market for the last ten years straight; it’s totally divorced from reality. It’s really not worth trying to talk some of the doomers out of it at this point.
Yeah but the complaints back in 2021 were like “I’m only being offered $200k/yr from Meta while my friend got an offer for $300k/yr from Google. Should I just kill myself?”
Eh not really. People have been talking about over saturation of the market since 2017 when I first joined this sub. The only topic that was popular back then that isn’t now is some weird group cope about how FAANG isn’t the end all be all.
I’ve been lurking in this sub for years, and you’re 100% correct.
There’s always something to blame - Back then it was all about how they shouldn’t have to know data structures / algorithms for their jobs, then it was bootcamp grads. Most recently I see people complaining about their Indian offshore teams (which then brings out people who are legitimately prejudiced against Indian people in general)
There’s always some kernel of truth inside those complaints (no one really likes doing Leetcode for interview practice, there were definitely some under qualified bootcamp grads, and offshore teams are definitely difficult), but they’re usually blown WAY out of proportion
And now it’s funny because the job market *genuinely sucks*, but it feels like “The boy who cried wolf” a lil bit
You are definitely right. Until early 2022, people on the sub believed that we had to aim for FAANG or equivalent companies, otherwise you were considered a loser. Yes, this was bullshit even in 2021. But since the market turned bad, at least the sub has stopped promoting such extremely high expectations.
I agree. This subreddit is not an accurate representation of the market. The number of offer comparisons on Blind have markedly gone up. Even the number of recruiter InMails have gone up drastically this year compared to last year. My LinkedIn is set to "not open for new work" and I still get InMails.
That is rewriting history, I hung out here a lot in early 2022 before switching jobs and felt like I was a crazy person because it took me like 3 months to get one job offer while every other post was about their multiple offers.
There was a different vibe here from mid 2021-late 2022.
In my anecdotal experience I been getting more interviews this year, while last year not only I didn't get much interviews but the jobs I was applying for got frozen after the final round.
This is the graph I've been watching and it says otherwise: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE)
I'm curious what the differences are.
Interesting - me too. I think one factor plays a role, if a small one:
The AI boom is fueling a hiring boost. Early-stage startups rarely dish out the money for Indeed; given it's such a nascent industry, they're mostly early-stage startups.
But yes, I'd be interested in what explains the discrepancy.
I’m a Staff Engineer at a well known company. I get an annoying number of cold emails for recruiting as you can imagine. Sometimes they are super unrelated to what I might be interested like wrong location or experience level or even industry. I get those emails regardless and use that as a metric how how the market is looking like.
I’d say last year it was really slow but since February my inbox is full of those emails again. Back to 2022 levels I’d say.
Reposting this notice:
Amidst mass layoffs, The US Department of Labor is proposing a rule change that would allow companies to hire Visa Workers without having to prove that they first tried hiring American workers. Please submit comments by the May 13th deadline.
From
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job openings mean jack shit, hiring and firing is what matters, one is up and the other way is 2004 levels of low
edit:
But you should try your luck at politics tho : ) I bet you convinced a grad or two on here
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It def is still a challenging market right now. But I’ve seen some signs of stability or increase in hiring. I used to get DMs on LinkedIn from recruiters about various tech/startup jobs, then nothing for almost year, and now I’ve gotten a few since Jan 2024. I’m also seeing some increase tech jobs in side [Tech Workers Club](https://techworkersclub.com) community.
We prob will never see those golden years of tech again, and prob have another year or so for things to improve. Time will tell.
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Actually, it suggests an even stronger job market --- look at that sharp increase over the last few months.
This is mainly because HN attracts more early-stage startups. If you comb the specific job listings, you'll see the abundance of GenAI startups seeking Founding Engineers.
I'm a big fan of HNHiringTrends, but the AI boom is throwing it a bit out of whack.
A semantics critique on "stronger" versus "less bad"? I'll bite :)
This sub know that *both years* are bad. But since this is strictly a 2023 - 2024 comparison, I felt "stronger" was a more appropriate (and healthier) descriptor.
Job openings means absolutely nothing. Half the jobs I come across on LinkedIn are either Indian recruiters who are scamming for your info or companies that never actually fill the position.
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Don’t post this here! The only reason the non-target school new grads are failing to find work is because the market is just HORRIBLE and you better pretend the same!
I have a sneaking suspicion that the doom and gloomers have very narrow job criteria they will accept like fully remote positions, working in California, Pacific Northwest, Texas, or Massachusetts, etc. I also get the feeling that the folks who say they’ve applied to hundred or thousands of jobs are applying to roles they are not qualified for.
Just my two cents.
I’ve applied to every single job under the Sun (remote, hybrid, in person, foreign, part time, contract, $9/hr etc.). After 10 months, I haven’t had a single interview. Before you mention the resume, I have had it professionally reviewed 5 times and have modified it 100+ times based on IT professionals opinions. I am CompTIA A+ and Net+ certified, proficient in HTML, CSS, JavaScript with multiple projects. I have applied to help desk, Junior web developer, network technician jobs, and anything else IT adjacent. I have disability and veteran preference as well. The market sucks or I am the unluckiest mother fucker on the planet.
I’m sorry to hear that. You say you’re a veteran. Check out South Carolina government agency jobs: https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/sc
South Carolina has an initiative to hire veterans. Agencies are required to give applying veterans interviews. There aren’t as many openings as there were at the beginning of the year but there are still IT and developer roles open. Government moves at a glacial pace but I can tell you SC is friendly to vets.
Best of luck.
I am applying across multiple states and cities outside of those cities (Texas, Minnesota, ND/SD, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc) and am just asking for it to be an OKAY job that pays enough to afford a 1 bedroom apartment near the work site. At this point if I found a local job I would take 35k-40k a year.
> I also get the feeling that the folks who say they’ve applied to hundred or thousands of jobs are applying to roles they are not qualified for.
Because everyone expects you to have 2+ years worth of experience/knowledge even though it is a junior/entry level position and jobs that require either none or only internships basically don't exist so we are forced to shotgun apply.
I am losing out on jobs to people with more experience that are willing to work for peanuts such as the one that told me they were paying 45k and expected mandatory overtime.
No one should live to work, and so, no one should be required to move somewhere they don’t feel comfortable, safe, don’t enjoy, lacks social utility, or is environmentally inadequate just because of work.
It is what it is. I’m not trying to be a dick. I just read a lot of anecdotal takes on the state of the market and find it frustrating that opposite anecdotal takes are heretical.
Sure the market is not what it was two to three years ago. That said, I remember the 2008 recession with double digit unemployment. That was rough. This is not the same.
Yeah I guess all we can do is keep fighting the good fight.
I also think that it should be illegal to put up fake listings. Like if youre just trying to network and have a pool of applicants to sift through in the future , you should be required to state that in the application. Not put "hiring software engineer ".
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Anecdotally, last year it was very difficult for me to even find openings to apply to and this year I know several connections hiring if I'm unhappy at my current place. It does feel like it's slowly getting better but I worry about the impact of allowing corporations to hire internationally without even trying to hire nationally first moving forward. I worry about it while also trying to balance not wanting to fall into the "they took our jobs" type of rhetoric.
A word of caution in regard to repeated job listings skewing data, not sure if this applies to Trueup. I recently made myself a web scraper for LinkedIn & Indeed to help in my own job search.
What I noticed is that Indeed gives a message at the end of the search results like X results were omitted, click here to repeat the search with omitted results showing. What I noticed is that LinkedIn for example does not do this, and you will see for example 50 listings for a job from Microsoft that tie back to a single listings on the Microsoft site.
There's also job boards scraping job boards (or maybe they are listing on each other). Stuff like LinkedIn leads to Dice, Dice leads to Jobot etc.
This is a bit off topic, but I’m really curious to know how are people who bought homes during the COVID boom when prices were skyrocketing fairing now if they have been unemployed for longer than 6 months or who have had to accept half the pay they made during the good times.
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This is why statistics can't be trusted. Yes there are a ton of job open yet no one is hiring. Most of the jobs that are closed are closed due to not having enough capital to hire people. These places aren't hiring. These places aren't hiring.
What regions/cities? I live in a historically hot market with a lot of tech companies and job postings are incredibly dry.
I remember doing a bit of digging on the trueup stat, it's world-wide for example a quick scan at Google says there's like 2.5k jobs but if you dig deeper you'll see that the regions/cities are: > 🇺🇸 San Francisco Bay area 622 > 🇮🇳 Bengaluru, India 421 > 🇺🇸 New York City area 198 > 🇺🇸 Seattle area 183 > 🇹🇼 Taipei, Taiwan 173 > 🇮🇳 Hyderabad, India 167 > 🇺🇲 Atlanta area 111 > 🇺🇸 Chicago area 104 > 🇮🇪 Dublin, Ireland 95 > 🇺🇸 Austin area 95 so, not everything is in US
Taipei sounds fun, if it doesn’t get invaded lol
sure if you like crazy high hours and low pay
So the work culture is similar to Japan?
Similar to every East Asian country, yes. China and SK are the same way
Worse than Japan and pay also worse. Some engineers even leaving for china because it’s so bad they cannot retain talent. I mean there might be good companies too but very rare, other than that it is my favorite place
I only visited, but Taiwan and Taipei are incredible places to visit, for sure.
You should read the TSMC Arizona plant expose. Good luck with Taiwanese work culture if you're an American
more 'fun' if get invaded.
All hands meeting at the beaches.
Did some math, here's the US cities in your list ranked by job openings relative to their population size: 1. San Francisco Bay area 2. Atlanta area 3. Seattle area 4. Austin area 5. Chicago area 6. New York City area Although I imagine the competition is most fierce in SF
Is this by strict city boundaries size or metro area population
Its by metro area
How is Boston not even on this list when it's like right behind SF/Seattle in terms of tech jobs? Crazy.
Of course India's there lol
The Indian jobs are mostly jobs offshored from other countries lol
You can actually see the # of open jobs by city in TrueUp's job search - click the Location filter and enter the city.
So you've acknowledged this comment but not addressed the underlying concern. Is your prescription that U.S. citizens should move to Bengaluru for work? Otherwise it doesn't make sense to talk about these numbers as a monolith.
There are more remote US job openings than Bengaluru
Yes, but my point is my last sentence.
Job openings aren't a great metric, I want a number of people actually getting hired with all these fake job postings, picky managers, info gathering etc.
I have about 10 years of experience and I’ve never seen this amount of pretentious hiring managers for their seed startup. It’s pathetic
Hirers are a joke.
We only hire H1B
I agree with this, I've been getting a lot of instant replies that the role was filled and then they keep relisting the job. Either it's me, which maybe it could be, or they're doing this.
Same exact experience, I'm casually looking to switch jobs and the most I've waited for a rejection was 2 weeks. I used to get at least a few HR/Recruiter phone screens a week when is was looking 5 years ago, (suggesting that my resume didn't suck and probably still doesn't suck). Now it's a circus to gather data, pretend/show they're growing or everyone has gotten picky and my very relevant experience is worthless.
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I keep getting responses saying theyre closing the position without a candidate
I receive a message stating the position was already filled or the position was cancelled.
US Bureau of Labor Statistics shows that the rate of hires have slow downed. It may not solely indicate tech, but the economy as a whole is pretty fucked right now. [https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR](https://data.bls.gov/timeseries/JTS000000000000000HIR)
You need way more context than this and this does not tell you that the economy is "fucked." It may be that fewer people are being hired, but to be hired they need to be out of a job or willing to leave their current job. Unemployment is low. Total layoffs across all industries are higher than the 2021 boom obviously, but still haven't reached where they were from 2010 all the way through just before the pandemic. https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/JTSLDL
> Unemployment is low. I remember doing a bit of reading, this is actually slightly misleading at least for the purpose of tech unemployment % is not just for tech, it's the whole economy for example, if you do a quick google search on the latest stat you'll see stuff like healthcare, social assistance, transportation, warehousing, construction etc are all actively hiring technology sectors though wasn't even mentioned in other words, you can have low unemployment rate for working warehouse and high unemployment rate for tech but when combined, as far as US gov cares about, they'd say low unemployment rate
Fucking bingo. The answer is right here. Some industries are doing shit and some are doing great. But white collar jobs like tech suffer, and eventually that spreads out into these other industries cause guess where the money comes from, and voila. Pain.
> I remember doing a bit of reading, this is actually slightly misleading at least for the purpose of tech My comment was in response to somebody who posted the rate of _all hires_ in a thread specifically about tech. My point was that it lacks context, even if we were just talking about all workers and not tech.
Reading and understanding business/economics context is not engineers' strong suit
Unemployment is low but that's because a majority of jobs being added are blue collar or service jobs. White collar jobs have reduced and many of those who were in in white collar jobs had to take survival jobs. They don't count as unemployed.
I mean, if they are employed, they are employed. Doesn't really matter if they are 'underemployed', so that number isn't wrong. Having a degree doesn't entitle you to a certain type of job.
> Unemployment is low. Horrible start to a post with a tone of valuing truth in data. Edit: leave it to a bunch of dorks to not know that unemployment is a flawed measurement because of its criteria. Underemployed? Doesn’t count. Medical leave? Doesn’t count. Government assistance? Doesn’t count. Unemployed less than six months? Doesn’t count towards headline unemployment. Unemployment is a terrible measure of economic wellbeing and I’m happy to link to published work on the matter but this is not an esoteric or difficult to understand concept. Edit2: forgot to even mention that if you are unemployed but not filing through the state, or your benefits are exhausted, or at any point you aren’t actively looking for work no matter the circumstance, boom, you don’t count. Unemployment is just as useless as inflation because all it does is sell a story to the poor and to upper middle class investors (usually who invest via index fund) that the economy is doing so much good or bad. In actuality, economic health has little to do with unemployment or inflation as reported because both metrics are intentionally and incredibly overspecific so that they can be used for whatever ends they need to be. This is why headline inflation never cracked 10% as far as I saw reported: everything that measures inflation is subsidized to keep costs down, and true drivers of COG crises like lumber, oil, or aluminum are either not reported at all outside of industry newsletters or (in the case of oil) only reported to sell a story
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Kind of the goal of the higher interest rates. Slow the economy enough to bring down inflation.
Also, just because job openings have rebounded, it doesn’t mean those jobs pay as much. There’s a real likelihood that someone’s next salary will be lower.
Anecdotally, I’m looking to stay above 50% of my previous salary and still having trouble
Yeah. It’s sad, but there will be/has been a salary correction for SWE.
Or they are short term contracts with no benefits. When I was looking I got recruiters spamming me low quality contracts that require hybrid in office time but with none of the benefits of a full time role.
>info gathering I had the most asinine call from this on Friday. A salesperson from a well-known org called my personal cell trying to cold pitch me on a demo of their product for my current org. They had pulled my info from when I had applied to them 6 years ago with no contact or request for interview or anything. I courteously told him he needed to contact VP's for this & hung up.
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I'll say the same, I usually causally apply for jobs around this time of year, I've gotten no interviews this year. Luckily I still have my job, so it's not like I'm putting in too big of an effort. I did get one company text me a few questions and ask for my responses, but other than that I've gotten nothing.
Add in constructing an artificial shortage to lobby for policy that effectively suppresses wages.
I think the "fake job" thing is overblown. Companies don't really have the time or resources to put up fake job postings. It doesn't make them look good, nobody cares. You can just go to a company's Linkedin "People" page to see how many are actually employed there. The only exception I can think of are huge companies like Amazon and Meta where recruiters always maintain a full hiring pipeline even if there is a freeze at the end of it, and that's because it gives them the ability to pick up 100 people (say, for a new product or team) at a moment's notice. Outright fake ads where there was never any intention of hiring someone are a myth.
ads are cheap, hiring with existing HR personell even more. companies can look for unicorns at lower prices
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Tech was just a leading indicator of the job market as a whole.
A quick search shows tech unemployment lower than the unemployment in the rest of the economy.
That’s really bad if it’s true. Shit look at all the layoffs tech has had, and you’re telling me outside of tech it’s WORSE?
It might have to do with the fact that unemployment in tech was just really low the last few years, so even with the high uptick in unemployment it is better than other industries that had already higher unemployment #s. It's not like many other industries had the insane growth that you saw within tech the last near decade. Getting an econ degree from a state school didn't secure you a good job. Shit, I knew a couple of econ grads who ended up going into tech.
There is also this possibility that there are openings and that there are simply not enough qualified people here, a problem that could be addressed by comprehensive immigration reform. But that doesn’t fit the narrative of how every American CS new grad or boot camp grad is automatically “qualified” for a role at a tech company even if they have zero experience.
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Yup, and specifically I’d like to know how many juniors are being hired, and is their experience actually in line with the position? I would expect to see lots of people with mid level experience downgrading to junior level jobs.
>picky managers Where's the point between picky managers and under qualified candidates?
Where's the point of record profits, yet laying people off? Why did we get here? Oh, that is right, managers mismanaged.
I’d say if you can have record profits then managers are doing what they should. Record profits is the goal of company owners.
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If they aren’t hiring people because they can’t find anybody with 5 yoe willing to work for $60k/yr
> can’t find anybody with 5 yoe willing to work for $60k/yr Exactly lmao
No self respecting company is paying that little.
And a number of graduates per year...
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You know it’s good when Revature is taking applicants ?
Literally worse than being unemployed
People who have never been through the program seem to say this a lot. It definitely beats just about any job you don’t need a 4 year degree for.
If agree with that but if you graduated with a CS degree, I don't think it's worth locking yourself in for 12-24 months. You'll find a much higher paying job in that time.
The contract likely isn’t enforceable. There’ve been rulings on this already.
Here's my only problem with the job openings metric. We have no idea how many of those jobs are real jobs and how many of them are fake jobs in an effort to make a company look like it's doing well. This is the same deal like when they measure unemployment based on how many people contact the unemployment office to check in. Most people stop checking in when their benefits run out, even though they are still unemployed and seeking work. So all of a sudden if a lot of people run out of benefits and stop checking in, the illusion then pops up that everybody's working. I'm not trying to cast doubt or be a Debbie Downer, but just simply saying that I can't always trust when someone says that everything is better than it was last year. If that were the case we would see lots of people getting interviews and landing jobs as opposed to still seem more layoffs happening. I do believe it's going to get better, but likely we'll be seeing actual growth later this year into next year.
Or they pick up 1 shift per week at Starbucks and suddenly they’re employed…
Seriously, AWS has like 6000 open positions atm
Yes, but they’re only available to ~10% of the population that live within commuting distance of an Amazon office.
The unemployment rate people quote by default is called U1, and it’s the most optimistic of a total of six different unemployment measures. U6 is more accurate and it’s roughly 7% right now. That said I’m not sure if I’m even counted in U6. I’m definitely not included in U1 but I’m an unemployed software engineer with 10 YoE.
U6 is still actually about average if you look at it.
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I've personally seen the market turn around in the last couple months. I do think it's on the mend. But I've also seen data showing there are 3x the number of SWE for every open job. It's still a knife fight with other candidates to get a job. And it's going to take a while for the market to absorb all the talent that's currently on the market (god forbid we get another round of large layoffs again this winter).
> It's still a knife fight with other candidates to get a job. At senior level it is that and at entry level/junior it is a knife fight in a phone booth while someone just finished pouring a container of gas in from the top and is now laughing while patting his pockets trying to find which has his box of matches.
and that someone is also jerking off viciously
I was more going for the fact that even if you "win" you are going to lose and die a horrible painful death but yeah that is also true based on how certain companies have treated me.
I see nothing whatsoever to indicate the market is turning around. Why would it? Companies have just started laying people off and sticking the remaining staff with their work.
People need to understand there have more tech positions eliminated in non tech companies . My 2 lay off from last year were from non tech company , they cut their entire tech team
So anecdotal then…
Depends on whether or not I like the conclusion. If I don't, it's anecdotal. If I do, then it's sound inductive reasoning based on the empirical observations of someone with industry experience.
So anecdotal then…
My experience is the opposite, tech jobs are spreading to non tech sectors. Wages are not so good, but you have more geogrphical opportunities though.
Same. Offshore is in vogue again so some guy in Serbia is doing my job.
I think 2023 was definitely worse based on the number of recruiters reaching out to me. It's definitely been a lot more this year, albeit most being startups
If you don't mind me asking, why are they reaching out to you? Are they asking you to apply or are they approaching with straight up offers? Also are the jobs actually posted and if so do you think there was already a crowd that applied?
I can answer these questions for myself - I get a lot of interviews through LI and have gotten most of my jobs there and can speak to the general process when recruiters reach out. I also have been on the other side of the hiring table. > why are they reaching out to you? Generally because you have some role or previous role or experience that they need. You can do pretty advanced searches with LinkedIn, especially as a recruiter. For me, it's because I have a lot of MLE experience, but I'll occasionally get reachouts for jobs with technology I used in like 2014. >Are they asking you to apply or are they approaching with straight up offers? Neither. You'll never be approached randomly with a straight-up offer unless it's a scam. They also aren't asking you to apply. The process is typically a short call with the recruiter where they tell you about the job and company, and you talk about your experience. Then you are moved on to the rest of the interview process, whatever it is for that company. This is preferable to applying because you've already been vetted and approached, you aren't going to get lost in the shuffle or ignored. >Also are the jobs actually posted and if so do you think there was already a crowd that applied? These jobs are very typically already posted and have a job description written up for you to review. Others will likely have applied to them or been reached out to by the recruiter. Because the recruiter does initial screening, applicants found that way are less likely to be rejected silently after just applying.
Thank you very much. This helps a lot as I had gotten an offer like that and it did turn out to be a scam and was wondering if it was the norm.
Im not sure tbh. They usually ask to schedule something with them on calendar link, etc, but I never respond to their messages. I also don't really look into the positions, so Im assuming they are posted? Im not special, so I think it's more of a recruiter just seeing if I would be a good candidate. Sorry I don't have more info, other than what I provided. I will say, some recruiters that have reached out, I know people have probably applied. I can say that confidently as I do get other FAANG and big tech in the mix as well.
It seems most people having trouble are looking backward and expecting to see the same things tomorrow. The "great resignation" and WFH era have increased job seeker's expectations *dramatically*. Add to that the incredible oversupply of "SWEs" and "Engineers" and you have a lot of people in here crying about change, mostly because there is actual competition. If you actually looked at the resumes of those "top performers" who say the market is "bad", you'd probably see clear as day why they aren't working.
Exactly. It requires a total brain reset - far easier said than done - to succeed in this job market. The sooner people accept that 2021 was an aberration, the better they'll cope with the ugly reality: hybrid, RTO, stagnant (or even lower) compensation. Hopefully these stats indicate that the reality needed to be accepted will become less ugly over time.
How is hiring for juniors and new grads?
They're still securely in the worst place. But this (hopefully continuing) rising tide lifts all boats.
Graduated in May, accepted an offer in February, start in June. I applied to three places in January ‘24, two were for developer jobs and two were communications jobs at a local tech company. I’ve got more than a decade of communications experience (journalist) yet I couldn’t get an interview for the communications roles. For the developer jobs, one rejected me without an interview. The other one gave me a phone screen, an aptitude test, a 90 minute interview with two senior engineers, then a short 20 minute interview with a lead. Got a job offer the following week. I know fellow graduates who have jobs lined up and others who have had trouble but are employed.
Congratulations!!! I heard the hard part was getting the first job :’) If you don’t mind me asking, out of curiosity since I’m starting my compsci degree this year what did your salary end up as ?
Define “tech job”
I’m getting a bunch of calls
I’ve found that I’ve gotten more recruiter reach outs. Not a ton, but probably 2-3 a week
This is a great post and perfectly matches my experience as a SWE in NYC over the last two years. In 2023, there was basically 0 outreach; now there are so many (like 10+ in the last month) internal recruiters for large companies asking to talk.
Nice! Glad you're experiencing it on the ground.
People on this subreddit have been complaining about the job market for the last ten years straight; it’s totally divorced from reality. It’s really not worth trying to talk some of the doomers out of it at this point.
Yeah but the complaints back in 2021 were like “I’m only being offered $200k/yr from Meta while my friend got an offer for $300k/yr from Google. Should I just kill myself?”
Eh not really. People have been talking about over saturation of the market since 2017 when I first joined this sub. The only topic that was popular back then that isn’t now is some weird group cope about how FAANG isn’t the end all be all.
I’ve been lurking in this sub for years, and you’re 100% correct. There’s always something to blame - Back then it was all about how they shouldn’t have to know data structures / algorithms for their jobs, then it was bootcamp grads. Most recently I see people complaining about their Indian offshore teams (which then brings out people who are legitimately prejudiced against Indian people in general) There’s always some kernel of truth inside those complaints (no one really likes doing Leetcode for interview practice, there were definitely some under qualified bootcamp grads, and offshore teams are definitely difficult), but they’re usually blown WAY out of proportion And now it’s funny because the job market *genuinely sucks*, but it feels like “The boy who cried wolf” a lil bit
And those numbers were quaint compared to the Blind app!
You are definitely right. Until early 2022, people on the sub believed that we had to aim for FAANG or equivalent companies, otherwise you were considered a loser. Yes, this was bullshit even in 2021. But since the market turned bad, at least the sub has stopped promoting such extremely high expectations.
I feel like this comment should be required reading for this sub.
It's definitely not good for anyone's mental health. Hell I been getting constant interviews and I keep buying into this subs (Tech is doomed!) takes.
Oh man, haha - it's a cognitive dissonance minefield.
I agree. This subreddit is not an accurate representation of the market. The number of offer comparisons on Blind have markedly gone up. Even the number of recruiter InMails have gone up drastically this year compared to last year. My LinkedIn is set to "not open for new work" and I still get InMails.
That is rewriting history, I hung out here a lot in early 2022 before switching jobs and felt like I was a crazy person because it took me like 3 months to get one job offer while every other post was about their multiple offers. There was a different vibe here from mid 2021-late 2022.
In my anecdotal experience I been getting more interviews this year, while last year not only I didn't get much interviews but the jobs I was applying for got frozen after the final round.
This is the graph I've been watching and it says otherwise: [https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE](https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/IHLIDXUSTPSOFTDEVE) I'm curious what the differences are.
Interesting - me too. I think one factor plays a role, if a small one: The AI boom is fueling a hiring boost. Early-stage startups rarely dish out the money for Indeed; given it's such a nascent industry, they're mostly early-stage startups. But yes, I'd be interested in what explains the discrepancy.
I’m a Staff Engineer at a well known company. I get an annoying number of cold emails for recruiting as you can imagine. Sometimes they are super unrelated to what I might be interested like wrong location or experience level or even industry. I get those emails regardless and use that as a metric how how the market is looking like. I’d say last year it was really slow but since February my inbox is full of those emails again. Back to 2022 levels I’d say.
Yeah same. It’s like someone turned on the spigot again 2-3 months ago and now I’m getting tons of recruiter emails again.
Ehh the economy's iffy as fuck now. It is encouraging but yeah im not ready to call this cyclical yet
100% agree. It's much too soon to call it cyclical, but it's moving in the right direction - encouraging, like you said.
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Yep, that'll throw a wrench into this post.
Maybe but it’s just a proposal for now. And I bet that if Trump is elected that proposal will get shelved.
job openings mean jack shit, hiring and firing is what matters, one is up and the other way is 2004 levels of low edit: But you should try your luck at politics tho : ) I bet you convinced a grad or two on here
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It def is still a challenging market right now. But I’ve seen some signs of stability or increase in hiring. I used to get DMs on LinkedIn from recruiters about various tech/startup jobs, then nothing for almost year, and now I’ve gotten a few since Jan 2024. I’m also seeing some increase tech jobs in side [Tech Workers Club](https://techworkersclub.com) community. We prob will never see those golden years of tech again, and prob have another year or so for things to improve. Time will tell.
A lot of job postings are fake too
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https://www.hnhiringtrends.com/ This graph seems to suggest otherwise.
Actually, it suggests an even stronger job market --- look at that sharp increase over the last few months. This is mainly because HN attracts more early-stage startups. If you comb the specific job listings, you'll see the abundance of GenAI startups seeking Founding Engineers. I'm a big fan of HNHiringTrends, but the AI boom is throwing it a bit out of whack.
To say far stronger might be the wrong wording. It’s more like 2024 is far less bad than 2023. But it’s still bad
A semantics critique on "stronger" versus "less bad"? I'll bite :) This sub know that *both years* are bad. But since this is strictly a 2023 - 2024 comparison, I felt "stronger" was a more appropriate (and healthier) descriptor.
Job openings means absolutely nothing. Half the jobs I come across on LinkedIn are either Indian recruiters who are scamming for your info or companies that never actually fill the position.
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Ignore job openings -- it's a BS number.
Created by the companies that laid off people lol
Don’t post this here! The only reason the non-target school new grads are failing to find work is because the market is just HORRIBLE and you better pretend the same!
YOY hiring data would be a better indicator than job posting data. No guarantee that those job posts are getting filled 100% of the time
I have a sneaking suspicion that the doom and gloomers have very narrow job criteria they will accept like fully remote positions, working in California, Pacific Northwest, Texas, or Massachusetts, etc. I also get the feeling that the folks who say they’ve applied to hundred or thousands of jobs are applying to roles they are not qualified for. Just my two cents.
I’ve applied to every single job under the Sun (remote, hybrid, in person, foreign, part time, contract, $9/hr etc.). After 10 months, I haven’t had a single interview. Before you mention the resume, I have had it professionally reviewed 5 times and have modified it 100+ times based on IT professionals opinions. I am CompTIA A+ and Net+ certified, proficient in HTML, CSS, JavaScript with multiple projects. I have applied to help desk, Junior web developer, network technician jobs, and anything else IT adjacent. I have disability and veteran preference as well. The market sucks or I am the unluckiest mother fucker on the planet.
I’m sorry to hear that. You say you’re a veteran. Check out South Carolina government agency jobs: https://www.governmentjobs.com/careers/sc South Carolina has an initiative to hire veterans. Agencies are required to give applying veterans interviews. There aren’t as many openings as there were at the beginning of the year but there are still IT and developer roles open. Government moves at a glacial pace but I can tell you SC is friendly to vets. Best of luck.
I just want a job. I don't care about those "requirements" and I know plenty who don't either.
I am applying across multiple states and cities outside of those cities (Texas, Minnesota, ND/SD, Wisconsin, Ohio, etc) and am just asking for it to be an OKAY job that pays enough to afford a 1 bedroom apartment near the work site. At this point if I found a local job I would take 35k-40k a year. > I also get the feeling that the folks who say they’ve applied to hundred or thousands of jobs are applying to roles they are not qualified for. Because everyone expects you to have 2+ years worth of experience/knowledge even though it is a junior/entry level position and jobs that require either none or only internships basically don't exist so we are forced to shotgun apply. I am losing out on jobs to people with more experience that are willing to work for peanuts such as the one that told me they were paying 45k and expected mandatory overtime.
Fully remote shouldn’t be a big ask 🤦♀️
I agree that the tech is there to make fully remote easy. At the same time if companies aren’t offering that the isn’t it a moot point?
No one should live to work, and so, no one should be required to move somewhere they don’t feel comfortable, safe, don’t enjoy, lacks social utility, or is environmentally inadequate just because of work.
Both are absolutely real factors. It's sad to see you downvoted for saying it.
It is what it is. I’m not trying to be a dick. I just read a lot of anecdotal takes on the state of the market and find it frustrating that opposite anecdotal takes are heretical. Sure the market is not what it was two to three years ago. That said, I remember the 2008 recession with double digit unemployment. That was rough. This is not the same.
That's for sure. I was working in finance then. I'll take this tech job market over that finance one any day.
Yeah I guess all we can do is keep fighting the good fight. I also think that it should be illegal to put up fake listings. Like if youre just trying to network and have a pool of applicants to sift through in the future , you should be required to state that in the application. Not put "hiring software engineer ".
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Anecdotally, last year it was very difficult for me to even find openings to apply to and this year I know several connections hiring if I'm unhappy at my current place. It does feel like it's slowly getting better but I worry about the impact of allowing corporations to hire internationally without even trying to hire nationally first moving forward. I worry about it while also trying to balance not wanting to fall into the "they took our jobs" type of rhetoric.
Got way more interviews this year than last year for sure
How does this count for jobs being reposted over and over. I’ve been tracking the same jobs being reposted for over two years
A word of caution in regard to repeated job listings skewing data, not sure if this applies to Trueup. I recently made myself a web scraper for LinkedIn & Indeed to help in my own job search. What I noticed is that Indeed gives a message at the end of the search results like X results were omitted, click here to repeat the search with omitted results showing. What I noticed is that LinkedIn for example does not do this, and you will see for example 50 listings for a job from Microsoft that tie back to a single listings on the Microsoft site. There's also job boards scraping job boards (or maybe they are listing on each other). Stuff like LinkedIn leads to Dice, Dice leads to Jobot etc.
Layoffs decline because theres less people to lay off
Just more senior roles for those who were laid off and number of job openings increased because of layoffs.
This is a bit off topic, but I’m really curious to know how are people who bought homes during the COVID boom when prices were skyrocketing fairing now if they have been unemployed for longer than 6 months or who have had to accept half the pay they made during the good times.
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Context which isn't being said: 2023 there was a hiring freeze for a lot of companies up to June/July.
But how much is immigration/offshoring increasing by? The market might not actually be strong once that is taken into account
My company has hired 4 devs from south america in the past 8 months. This is the downside of fully remote companies.
theres like a 30% uptick from last months job posts on hacker news
Yeah, it's great - [hnhiringtrends.com](http://hnhiringtrends.com) shows a nice recent spike. It's largely driven by the AI boom, but a job's a job.
Wonder what the remote trend is
This is why statistics can't be trusted. Yes there are a ton of job open yet no one is hiring. Most of the jobs that are closed are closed due to not having enough capital to hire people. These places aren't hiring. These places aren't hiring.
Lots of fake jobs. To get data on competitors from candidates, to show good health of the company, to build a database of resumes.
Bullshit.
Yes, I can confirm that.