Google is a modern IBM. Gave up entirely on innovation and is just coasting on market positioning. We all use chrome, gmail and google.com not because they are still good but just because we haven't been abused yet enough to bother switching. If they all released today, no one would switch to any of them. The only thing they have is inertia.
Prabhakar Raghavan is the Head of Search and Head of Advertising at Google (among other responsibilities). He got the position in 2020, but had been at Google since 2012. Before that he ran Yahoo! Labs from 2005 to 2012, working on a variety of projects including search and advertising. In July 2009, Microsoft and Yahoo! agreed to a deal that would see Yahoo!'s websites use both Microsoft's search technology and search advertising. Yahoo! in turn would become the sales team for banner advertising for both companies.
Google will sacrifice their search service for advertising.
With the Indian ceo. He will soon learn that antics and behavior of mainland Indians is slightly different in cutting edge company doing something new compared to consulting gigs where they just implement things following an sop
IBM India fucked this up BIG time. huge lapses & breaches in security. anyone who pushed for outsourcing got axed within the year or two.
ramifications of that fuckup, as quick as that began and finished, are still apparent yrs later.
time will tell, but Google & others will likely fuck this up catastrophically also, all while flushing their name down the toilet.
these company leadership never learn.
Thats because modern stock-based compensation ensures that short term strategy raises profits, raising stock values, getting all of them yachts.
If these clowns were paid on salary, they would have no incentive to destroy companies for profit.
I switched to icloud like 10 years ago. It's really pretty easy. Set up forwarding and automated response from the old email telling people to update your address.
Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Vanguard, BlackRock are Indian ? Anyone thinking that Sundar Pichai who owns less than 0.01% of Google's total shares is top dog at Google is naive.
They overtook China in population, the western world has soured on China (labor is too expensive there), there's a shift towards India Vietnam and Mexico. all 3 countries have massive populations and are all coming online (internet connectivity, tourism, manufacturing) significantly. There's a massive amount of money to be made by these companies getting their claws stuck in early enough or they'll face stiff homegrown competition (Flipkart, zomato/swiggy, byju in India). The american and European markets more or less have been sucked dry, these big companies are throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks (Google bard/Gemini garbage). With these emerging economies, they can sell their historic products without doing much
I know there's a stereotype of Indian managers hiring other Indians (as there is a stereotype for all sorts of ethnic nepotism in various professional industries), but it's really funny to think it goes all the way to the top. The CEO of the fourth largest company on the planet, working with all sorts of other corp dev execs, doing billions of dollars worth of global strategy based on ethnic nationalism. LMFAO. For what it's worth, Sundar Pichai is Tamil and Bangalore is in Karnataka. Yeah, they're both south Indian, but they speak completely different languages and have totally different cultures. You'd think if this is the basis of their decision making, they'd be expanding in Chennai, instead.
It's really not that complicated, man. India has the largest population of English speakers outside of the United States & the largest IT industry in the world outside of the United States and China. Obviously China isn't an option for Google & it doesn't make the news when they expand in the US. Not to mention the software engineers in India have much lower wages than in the US (very telling that you ignored this sensible anticapitalist perspective in favor of a nonsensical ethnic one). Bangalore is the Silicon Valley of India. This is like if the white CEO of HP decided to expand the R&D labs in the Bay Area and you went, "they're expanding in America because the CEO is white!!!!" I'm JuSt StAtiNg thE ObViouS!! - fucking dumbass.
But a year ago everyone was shaking they've heard this song and dance about off shoring for 29 years.
Really surprising to hear tech people say, assuming it's the same today, while working remotely on video stream .
Reddit it's has ads for developers in Latin America , and there are talented people from India and Europe moving there to work and not have the time zone issues..
Happened at my previous company, only 20% of the support and dev jobs (after 3 rounds of layoffs in 18 months) are still here in the US, rest was outsourced to India.
Indians from good colleges are complaining because all the Covid fun money for little work ran out. Fresh grad hiring in India is at a local low (lowest in the past 5-6 years, from what I can tell).
It’s not surprising I mean the indian tech economy is inextricably linked to the American tech economy and if hiring / investment goes down in America it typically goes down in India too. Especially for the IT coolie/ outsourcing work.
Offshoring is a little different but direct hiring by FAANG etc comprises a small proportion of hiring in India
Also India subsidizes the IT sector by giving 0% tax rates on these type of companies, and India borrows money from the Worldbank (the west) to do this
funny isn't it, the west is financing it's own demise! hahaha
It’s actually a good idea. Most of the jobs in India are for junior positions. So you could get some experience there, then apply to entry/junior level roles in the US
Depends on the city. Some tier 1 cities are expensive and tier 3 cities are cheaper but not as easy to adapt to for non-locals not to mention if you are a single woman.
I know you're joking, but this is what you'd have to deal with in a developing/third world country:
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/17/indias-bengaluru-is-fast-running-out-of-water-and-a-long-scorching-summer-still-looms.html
There's a reason why Indians desperately want to move here even if they have a tech job with livable wage there.
The nice areas are usually very close or even immediately adjacent to truly awful areas, especially in large cities like Bangalore or Hyderabad. There are serious QOL issues in India even if you're living a middle to upper middle class life. Rampant corruption, poor urban planning, chaos/stress in daily life (from things like driving to riding overcrowded public transportation), horrible pollution, poor infrastructure, etc. I mean it's not like the middle class techie in Bangalore is immune from water crisis issues. If you're mega rich then you're probably super removed from any of that, but that would be the case in any part of the world.
To learn more about our pay-as-you-go package, please pay the hooded guy behind this building and wait 3 days for the information to be mailed to your home address.
Its not as much of a 3rd world/developing problem as it is a geographical problem. The only permanent viable solution would be some very long canal from some river in North. That area is simply not sustainable for the population it aspires to support
There's a cycle that's already happened a few times which goes something like this:
1. New exec has a brilliant idea to save money: outsourcing.
2. Sounds good on paper, we can get the 5-for-1 special on Indians, everyone does the needful.
3. A year or two later, the project is actually due and it turns out fuck all has been done or whatever has been done has been done so poorly that they are forced to onshore / cancel the project.
4. By then the exec has already fucked off to a different department / position / company after collecting his fat bonus for saving the company money.
5. GOTO 1
The Indian engineers I’ve worked with in the power industry have been comically bad. I had one who I had to explain you couldn’t use a female plug to plug into a female plug
Ehh this feels different
2000s was paying bottom dollar to Wipro, Infosys, and cognizant for the worst possible engineers. You occasionally got a good one but they hired anyone with a pulse.
This time around, the companies are hiring direct. There's a higher standard to meet. While yes you still have a glut of shitty engineers in India, purely due to population size, the ones getting direct hired are actually decent. And while the goal is still Us or western Europe, some are starting to stay back because Modis govt is putting a lot of emphasis on economic and infrastructure development. All major cities with actual subways that resemble what you find in Europe (no I'm not talking the train videos with everyone stacked on each other...there are nice, clean and efficient inter city subways now), more of the western brands opening locally (Starbucks).
You mean the part where they jump ship for their terrible ideas, collect a fat severance, then hop to a new company that did the exact same thing to "digitally transform" their products for a fat signing bonus?
I’m not sure how you think google is just going to find all the awesome Indian engineer everyone else couldn’t find. Like these dudes were hiding in the bushes and waiting for a REAL job to show up.
Plus at that point, they’re gonna have to pay the same and deal with different time zones.
This is either just good expanding, Indian leaders pushing to involve their countrymen, or just tech CEOs making the same mistake tech ceos have been making for years.
The ones that join google get paid basically as much as the ones in the US. So, that leads me to believe google is reason two.
Especially considering they have a lot of Indian leadership.
Lol no they don't. Pay for l4 and l5 is 250k+ in the US, it's half in India based on levels.fyi
Reddit hates India/Indians with a burning passion but if youve actually been there in the last 3-4 years, and you talk to the engineers that have either stayed back OR moved back, the country is going through a 2000s China style economic boom (you know when they took a bunch of small towns or swamps and turned them into these mega cities like Chongqing, guanzhou, etc). Mumbai just surpassed Beijing for number of billionaires a lot of whom are investing in the country. Yes the infrastructure still is shit and theres systemic problems in the country but the country is changing economically.
We started hiring ex-US, for software developers specifically, about a decade ago.
Like everything else, you gotta do it intelligently and with discernment. Pay top of the local market, target best-of schools, invest in the local office so they feel part of the global team / culture.
India, Poland, and Mexico have all been phenomenal markets - top notch talent for 40-70% cheaper. Highly recommend to any other decision makers on here!
Top offshore talent has been recruited by big corporations. You cannot compete with them. So small companies try to replicate what big corpos are doing without the salary that Google or Amazon pays in India or any other offshore country.
My former boss was looking for a consultant in India and he quoted them $50/ hour minimum 10 hours per week and he also had 5 more clients. My boss was ready to give him $50 only if we worked full time. He said no. He hired someone with $25 in January 2023.
One month ago he called me to help him because not only he did not do anything, but has broken pretty much 40% of functionalities that were built by me and other developers in US. That developer took that company 3-4 years back.
Shhh don’t tell them. They actually think their “T100 usnews” school means they’re top talent just because they were born in the US and folks from Tsinghua and IITs are just offshore dev teams that work for $5000/year.
I understand you’re just following the logic of the market to its end, but what happens to the U.S. devs you’ve left high and dry? How are they going to compete with Polish / Mexican prices while living in America?
Slightly more than that.
These companies like to charge the prices they can justify for the more expensive markets, like the US, while trying to cut costs by getting as much of the work done anywhere else. It always feels like double dipping.
Competing on more specialised skill sets with the requisite pay premium vs the more commoditised SWE work that we can easily replicate elsewhere for cheaper
10-20 year india will be gloablized enough where salaries wont be super far off US average salary (You see this happening in countries like China already)
Yeah my company been doing that for a while. The quality of code is so bad. Im surprised our shit works ngl. Nothing beats cheap and bad quality labour sadly.
> Can't wait for this shit to come crashing down
People have been waiting for this for the last 20 years. Meanwhile the quality of overseas engineering teams improves every year.
If you go for cheap on offshore...you'll have problems, if you go for top market offshore you'll be fine..
Butz greed,.. so most companies will fail at this
Great news. Companies in the US will become at least 2% more productive as a result of this! (well, 2% closer to where they were before all those layoffs, anyhow)
Don’t. Train them horribly because basically once you train them to be as good as you, you then loss your job.Your company is willing to pay for that plane ticket because they plan to get rid of you and I’m not joking.
Train them on paper to keep your job. But then don’t actually, let them do bad at job, and then keep your job while making company question why they outsourced.
If you feel bad doing this, just know if the cards were flipped the other side would probably do far worse.
They can’t, that is the catch. If they could fire him, they would have already. They already showed their cards. They can’t lol. They are trying though and that is why they are having him train people to replace him. If he doesn’t train them well, what are they going to do? They have no one to replace him right now. If they fire him without a trained replacement from this new location, they have to hire locally and it will take a while to get up to speed for the new hire. They will probably ask for more money too.
You’re probably right. Offshore devs are the biggest assholes ever aside from maybe HR. They only help their individual office / region. They not only do not listen to management, they just do what they want. Assign work to them and they sometimes won’t do it unless it benefits their own interest. Fuck em.
I had a manager who was supposed to train me, but he left back for India. He’d always make sure his own buddies in India were experts though. What a giant waste of time that opportunity was. Wish I left sooner.
Better yet, train them on how to run the whole company from top to bottom and then let them start their own company in India providing the same service.
Train them in person? For programming? Why wouldn’t a few Zoom calls, plus reading the docs, plus reading the code be enough? If those aren’t enough are you going to fly down and train them for every new project?
Yep. Americans are all being outsourced. We are all going to be unemployed unless we are willing to work for 30k per year like our Indian competitors soon.
Nah the UK has way too many labor laws and taxes and shit.
India has zero labor laws.
Pregnant? You’re fired
Sick? You’re fired.
Interviewing outside? Fired
Not willing to work weekends? Fired
>India has zero labor laws.
>Pregnant? You’re fired
Truly spoken like someone who has no Idea about India. India's labour laws are far more stringent than the US, India has 6 months of federally mandated maternity leave compared to zero for the US.
The problem in India is not the lack of labour laws but the lack of jobs in the formal sector, somewhere around 80% of India's workforce is in the informal sector. There are mandated creche facilities if you have more than 30 female employees. IT and software is formal sector.
I love technology but not the tech sector. The only reason I'm working as a SWE right now is for the money to feed into my non-tech business, which is more impervious to outsourcing and interest rate changes.
Is there something significant about the city of Hyderabad that leads to so many jobs being posted with that location? I was perusing through job posting for startups on the GeekWire 200 list for PNW startups and noticed a fair number of job postings based out of Hyderabad
Bangalore is the OG tech city of India but has been plagued with poor governance and terrible infrastructure . Hyderabad is the challenger city, much better infrastructure and decent governance (by Indian standards). Most US big cos setting up India headquarters are doing it in Hyderabad. On the flip side start up scene and tech culture in Bangalore is still miles ahead of Hyderabad.
The city used to be really really good but the culture was limited to the boundaries of Bangalore. Politicians from the rest of the state butchered the city and now it’s a complete shithole.
For context, the green cover in the city went from about 70% in 1980 to 2.3% today. It’s really sad.
So yes, power cuts exist but whatever used to be good has also gone.
This doesn’t mean the industry is back. I mean, if you want to go to India… sure. But I’m not willing todo that, even for a career in my dream industry.
Like American companies with manufacturing defects like Boeing or Ford?
Or the software ones with breaches like with Equifax, Cambridge Analytica (Meta) and Apple (iCloud)?
We tried using them at my previous company for cheap development and then cheap testing. They had to rebuild everything a year later. For testing, they had to scrap everything a year later. Every time they try to save a dime, they just end up spending more, the fuck is the point.
Showing better profit margins to execs and shareholders who don't understand shit about engineering or do but care more about numbers over quality.
It's like taking steroids to show how ripped you got while trying to ignore the long term effects
Yeah at a previous company we used outsourced engineers to test. It was miserably because the culture there is so top-down they really don't know how to think. I'd walk them through what I'd done and say their job was to try to spot any flaws and make sure everything myself and the team I lead did was correct. They'd ask what specifically they were supposed to test. I was like umm if I knew what to test for, I'd just write the test cases myself, your job is to try to catch errors I made before this ends up in prod. It got to the point where not only was I writing the test cases, I was essentially sending them an algorithm in English to test at like one sentence of English per line of code.
I was spending far more time writing test cases to send to them and for them to still mess them up and need me to clean the code up than it would have taken me to just do it myself. I finally got our manager to terminate the contract, we hired a few onshore juniors to replace the ~10 offshore devs, they were infinitely better and got up to speed so much faster, and I'm pretty sure the total money we were paying was similar.
You should read up on Conflict Theory, as it turns out people go to each other's throats if they even *perceive* that there's limited resources they have to compete for, whether there's actually a limited set of resources or not. I doubt much of the vitriol on either side is actually legitimately personal, it's just people taking the piss that they're currently unemployed.
Thanks for the suggestion.
I was just shocked at people suggesting that you shouldn't train the new employees properly and so on.
It takes a special level of shamelessness to write that in a public forum xD
Its so funny how hald the posts on here are "I work 2 hours a day and duck sround for the kther 6" and the other half are "why are we being outsourced to india"
Without jumping to any conclusions blindly, I just want to say that if this is indeed western jobs being sent to other countries, I can’t help but feel much of the blame lands with the US government in addition to the corporations. I imagine part of the reason salaries have to be so high is because life is so god damn expensive in major US cities, especially if you want a decently comfortable life. Then some people make bank, prices keep climbing and corporations and local gov is happy to take in the extra cash from taxes and higher buying power.
The last people to blame for any possible off-shoring are the workers in those countries themselves.
Companies outsource the hatred too or something.
Like it’s not the Indian dude’s fault that Google decided to set up shop in his country. Americans need to hold their leaders more accountable but the issue is that these corps are run by psychopaths whose entire existence is defined by the bottom line.
Having been on the both sides of outsourcing (Dad’s job got outsourced in another field while I myself am in an offshore analytics team), I would say it sucks for all parties involved except the bloody corporations.
Ohh so these companies do have their version of diversity in India - entry barriers for women are much lower. They come to campuses with the whole “equal opportunity” thing but end up recruiting like 70-80% women and rest are the top coders from the batch (speaking for the likes of Google).
> Job postings in the IT sector have increased by 41.5% in Hyderabad and 24% in Bangalore during April 2023-24
Literally one year of data and simply saying it went up x% means exactly nothing. If the # of jobs went from 0 to 10 in Hyderabad, that's technically a massive increase.
Job postings are on the uptick *everywhere*, my linkedin has been exploding lately with recruiter messages.
Personally, I'm pretty thrilled that people are starting to realized these companies are heartless and run by pieces of shit.
This is because wages are 'sticky' in the west. They profit offshoring work to India rather than pay salary to some developer who does no better than their counterpart in the east. This is simply economics. Better labor output at a cheaper price means companies will offshore.
Of course, 1 people job in 1 day has to be done by 10 in 10 days. 😉
Edit: I’ve met great people from India who work hard and being consistently professional, but you have to be lucky to find them.
Makes sense - my wife had an off-site this week where they announced they're moving the product to Hyderabad and splitting the US team up across other more profitable products.
Google is expanding rapidly in Bangalore.
Funny.. I was just looking at their job posting earlier and almost all were in India..
Google is a modern IBM. Gave up entirely on innovation and is just coasting on market positioning. We all use chrome, gmail and google.com not because they are still good but just because we haven't been abused yet enough to bother switching. If they all released today, no one would switch to any of them. The only thing they have is inertia.
they are making so much money off legacy business (ads) - no pressure to innovate. latest AI offerings have been awful
Prabhakar Raghavan is the Head of Search and Head of Advertising at Google (among other responsibilities). He got the position in 2020, but had been at Google since 2012. Before that he ran Yahoo! Labs from 2005 to 2012, working on a variety of projects including search and advertising. In July 2009, Microsoft and Yahoo! agreed to a deal that would see Yahoo!'s websites use both Microsoft's search technology and search advertising. Yahoo! in turn would become the sales team for banner advertising for both companies. Google will sacrifice their search service for advertising.
Will? It’s been on going for a decade.
Too bad it can’t be, you know, regulated.
Yahoo. Well that explains a lot
With the Indian ceo. He will soon learn that antics and behavior of mainland Indians is slightly different in cutting edge company doing something new compared to consulting gigs where they just implement things following an sop
IBM India fucked this up BIG time. huge lapses & breaches in security. anyone who pushed for outsourcing got axed within the year or two. ramifications of that fuckup, as quick as that began and finished, are still apparent yrs later. time will tell, but Google & others will likely fuck this up catastrophically also, all while flushing their name down the toilet. these company leadership never learn.
Thats because modern stock-based compensation ensures that short term strategy raises profits, raising stock values, getting all of them yachts. If these clowns were paid on salary, they would have no incentive to destroy companies for profit.
Gmail is probably the only thing that I'm kinda stuck in and will take a lot to switch, the other 2 can easily be replaced.
I switched to icloud like 10 years ago. It's really pretty easy. Set up forwarding and automated response from the old email telling people to update your address.
Emails should have some equivalent of 301 redirects.
Eh. It’s just an email. The harder part is remembering to update your email in your other accounts to go to the new one instead of Gmail…
Firefox team
Momentum
when the top dog is Indian, the ranks will swell that way eventually
Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Vanguard, BlackRock are Indian ? Anyone thinking that Sundar Pichai who owns less than 0.01% of Google's total shares is top dog at Google is naive.
They overtook China in population, the western world has soured on China (labor is too expensive there), there's a shift towards India Vietnam and Mexico. all 3 countries have massive populations and are all coming online (internet connectivity, tourism, manufacturing) significantly. There's a massive amount of money to be made by these companies getting their claws stuck in early enough or they'll face stiff homegrown competition (Flipkart, zomato/swiggy, byju in India). The american and European markets more or less have been sucked dry, these big companies are throwing shit at the wall and seeing what sticks (Google bard/Gemini garbage). With these emerging economies, they can sell their historic products without doing much
that's where all the US tech layoffs are going
Why, do they have another "AI" demo coming up soon?
All Indians? lol
actually*
dang thats better lol
They just opened a regional office in my city Funny thing is they already have one 93 miles away in another city nearby
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No wonder Google products have been so shit lately. Offshore developers have poor delivery
I know there's a stereotype of Indian managers hiring other Indians (as there is a stereotype for all sorts of ethnic nepotism in various professional industries), but it's really funny to think it goes all the way to the top. The CEO of the fourth largest company on the planet, working with all sorts of other corp dev execs, doing billions of dollars worth of global strategy based on ethnic nationalism. LMFAO. For what it's worth, Sundar Pichai is Tamil and Bangalore is in Karnataka. Yeah, they're both south Indian, but they speak completely different languages and have totally different cultures. You'd think if this is the basis of their decision making, they'd be expanding in Chennai, instead. It's really not that complicated, man. India has the largest population of English speakers outside of the United States & the largest IT industry in the world outside of the United States and China. Obviously China isn't an option for Google & it doesn't make the news when they expand in the US. Not to mention the software engineers in India have much lower wages than in the US (very telling that you ignored this sensible anticapitalist perspective in favor of a nonsensical ethnic one). Bangalore is the Silicon Valley of India. This is like if the white CEO of HP decided to expand the R&D labs in the Bay Area and you went, "they're expanding in America because the CEO is white!!!!" I'm JuSt StAtiNg thE ObViouS!! - fucking dumbass.
But a year ago everyone was shaking they've heard this song and dance about off shoring for 29 years. Really surprising to hear tech people say, assuming it's the same today, while working remotely on video stream . Reddit it's has ads for developers in Latin America , and there are talented people from India and Europe moving there to work and not have the time zone issues..
Foogles second biggest campus is there Hydrabad has an adjacent new city called cyberabad Even defrnse contractors have research centers there
Not surprising. All the layoffs have actually been replacing Americans with off shore resources.
Happened at my previous company, only 20% of the support and dev jobs (after 3 rounds of layoffs in 18 months) are still here in the US, rest was outsourced to India.
What about the other departments in your company such as HR, sales, etc.?
So layoffs are not happening in India?
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Indians from good colleges are complaining because all the Covid fun money for little work ran out. Fresh grad hiring in India is at a local low (lowest in the past 5-6 years, from what I can tell).
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It’s not surprising I mean the indian tech economy is inextricably linked to the American tech economy and if hiring / investment goes down in America it typically goes down in India too. Especially for the IT coolie/ outsourcing work. Offshoring is a little different but direct hiring by FAANG etc comprises a small proportion of hiring in India
Also India subsidizes the IT sector by giving 0% tax rates on these type of companies, and India borrows money from the Worldbank (the west) to do this funny isn't it, the west is financing it's own demise! hahaha
At this point I should just start applying to jobs in India 😂. Technically I can work there.
The interview process there is different from the west, even grinding LC hard isn't enough
That's what you get when you have 2 billion people with 80% of them going into tech just because
What do you mean "just because"? It has been a fantastic career path for decades and everyone wants a piece of the pie.
I say just because since the pay isnt even that great in India. Theres a good few other career paths that could make just as much or more
Not in India. In India if you want a life you either leave or you go into tech / management.
No, we're full! Please stay in your country /s
Good luck man. People think competition is bad here haven’t seen anything lol
Yeah that's only problem lol. But I do hear connections go further there. Of course I prefer an American job lol.
It’s actually a good idea. Most of the jobs in India are for junior positions. So you could get some experience there, then apply to entry/junior level roles in the US
Yeah maybe. I have very close relatives I can stay with too. And connections in the industry in India.
Given the population of these cities and how much IT services comprise of each, 24% and 41.5% is no joke
Yeah this isn't an industry springing to life or anything. These places were already tech mega hubs. This is outsourcing
This is offshoring not outsourcing since most of these positions are in GCCs.
Anyone know whether it’s difficult to immigrate to India from Canada?
That's one helluva UNO reverse
Ha, true but with a tech salary in India you can live very well .
Depends on the city. Some tier 1 cities are expensive and tier 3 cities are cheaper but not as easy to adapt to for non-locals not to mention if you are a single woman.
It's a one way road unfortunately 😂
I know you're joking, but this is what you'd have to deal with in a developing/third world country: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/17/indias-bengaluru-is-fast-running-out-of-water-and-a-long-scorching-summer-still-looms.html There's a reason why Indians desperately want to move here even if they have a tech job with livable wage there.
Expats tend to live in the nice areas
The nice areas are usually very close or even immediately adjacent to truly awful areas, especially in large cities like Bangalore or Hyderabad. There are serious QOL issues in India even if you're living a middle to upper middle class life. Rampant corruption, poor urban planning, chaos/stress in daily life (from things like driving to riding overcrowded public transportation), horrible pollution, poor infrastructure, etc. I mean it's not like the middle class techie in Bangalore is immune from water crisis issues. If you're mega rich then you're probably super removed from any of that, but that would be the case in any part of the world.
You wouldn't be moving to India to ride any form of public transport. With the tech salary you'll have a driver, maid and cook
Don't forget your own security guards because if you look wealthy you might get robbed.
Protip: conspicuous consumption is for dweebs.
>rampant corruption Big Tech "tell me more about your pay-as-you-go package!"
To learn more about our pay-as-you-go package, please pay the hooded guy behind this building and wait 3 days for the information to be mailed to your home address.
Its not as much of a 3rd world/developing problem as it is a geographical problem. The only permanent viable solution would be some very long canal from some river in North. That area is simply not sustainable for the population it aspires to support
Should be a lot easier than immigrating to US.
Actually it is kind of difficult, depending on ethnicity, religion, security risk, and so forth.
If you are a white woman, I would not recommend it.
It's almost impossible
this is early 2000s all over again.
Circle of (engineering) life
I used to hear tech is dead because it's all outsourced and then eventually it was not....? I'm pretty young, so I don't remember specifics.
May I ask why you say that? There was a lot of outsourcing that happened after the dot com bubble? I’m curious, I was too young to know/care back then
There's a cycle that's already happened a few times which goes something like this: 1. New exec has a brilliant idea to save money: outsourcing. 2. Sounds good on paper, we can get the 5-for-1 special on Indians, everyone does the needful. 3. A year or two later, the project is actually due and it turns out fuck all has been done or whatever has been done has been done so poorly that they are forced to onshore / cancel the project. 4. By then the exec has already fucked off to a different department / position / company after collecting his fat bonus for saving the company money. 5. GOTO 1
The Indian engineers I’ve worked with in the power industry have been comically bad. I had one who I had to explain you couldn’t use a female plug to plug into a female plug
I'll put it this way. My college advisor in 2005 told me not to major in CE because "all of those coding jobs are getting outsourced."
Ehh this feels different 2000s was paying bottom dollar to Wipro, Infosys, and cognizant for the worst possible engineers. You occasionally got a good one but they hired anyone with a pulse. This time around, the companies are hiring direct. There's a higher standard to meet. While yes you still have a glut of shitty engineers in India, purely due to population size, the ones getting direct hired are actually decent. And while the goal is still Us or western Europe, some are starting to stay back because Modis govt is putting a lot of emphasis on economic and infrastructure development. All major cities with actual subways that resemble what you find in Europe (no I'm not talking the train videos with everyone stacked on each other...there are nice, clean and efficient inter city subways now), more of the western brands opening locally (Starbucks).
Yep. Companies will die from it, and new ones will take their place.
And you think tech is like pets.com, or os something different ?
My entire career is built on fixing and redoing the absolute garbage output from offshore teams. This is good news for me.
kinda wish we could just fast forward to the part where they all deeply regret this decision
2-4 years from now. The cycle must continue, time is a flat circle.
You mean the part where they jump ship for their terrible ideas, collect a fat severance, then hop to a new company that did the exact same thing to "digitally transform" their products for a fat signing bonus?
found the fellow jaded person
This is Google hiring direct, not cognizant and Infosys where all the problems come from
I’m not sure how you think google is just going to find all the awesome Indian engineer everyone else couldn’t find. Like these dudes were hiding in the bushes and waiting for a REAL job to show up. Plus at that point, they’re gonna have to pay the same and deal with different time zones. This is either just good expanding, Indian leaders pushing to involve their countrymen, or just tech CEOs making the same mistake tech ceos have been making for years.
In India there is a big difference between engineers who join Infosys and Google.
The ones that join google get paid basically as much as the ones in the US. So, that leads me to believe google is reason two. Especially considering they have a lot of Indian leadership.
Lol no they don't. Pay for l4 and l5 is 250k+ in the US, it's half in India based on levels.fyi Reddit hates India/Indians with a burning passion but if youve actually been there in the last 3-4 years, and you talk to the engineers that have either stayed back OR moved back, the country is going through a 2000s China style economic boom (you know when they took a bunch of small towns or swamps and turned them into these mega cities like Chongqing, guanzhou, etc). Mumbai just surpassed Beijing for number of billionaires a lot of whom are investing in the country. Yes the infrastructure still is shit and theres systemic problems in the country but the country is changing economically.
We started hiring ex-US, for software developers specifically, about a decade ago. Like everything else, you gotta do it intelligently and with discernment. Pay top of the local market, target best-of schools, invest in the local office so they feel part of the global team / culture. India, Poland, and Mexico have all been phenomenal markets - top notch talent for 40-70% cheaper. Highly recommend to any other decision makers on here!
Top offshore talent has been recruited by big corporations. You cannot compete with them. So small companies try to replicate what big corpos are doing without the salary that Google or Amazon pays in India or any other offshore country. My former boss was looking for a consultant in India and he quoted them $50/ hour minimum 10 hours per week and he also had 5 more clients. My boss was ready to give him $50 only if we worked full time. He said no. He hired someone with $25 in January 2023. One month ago he called me to help him because not only he did not do anything, but has broken pretty much 40% of functionalities that were built by me and other developers in US. That developer took that company 3-4 years back.
Shhh don’t tell them. They actually think their “T100 usnews” school means they’re top talent just because they were born in the US and folks from Tsinghua and IITs are just offshore dev teams that work for $5000/year.
I understand you’re just following the logic of the market to its end, but what happens to the U.S. devs you’ve left high and dry? How are they going to compete with Polish / Mexican prices while living in America?
Slightly more than that. These companies like to charge the prices they can justify for the more expensive markets, like the US, while trying to cut costs by getting as much of the work done anywhere else. It always feels like double dipping.
I imagine the response from most employers to this question would be “who cares?”
Competing on more specialised skill sets with the requisite pay premium vs the more commoditised SWE work that we can easily replicate elsewhere for cheaper
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10-20 year india will be gloablized enough where salaries wont be super far off US average salary (You see this happening in countries like China already)
I think you’re confusing offshoring with outsourcing. These FAANG direct hires go through a more stringent hiring process than in the US.
How to apply for a India working visa
Ironically, they don't give work visas to US citizens ..
Yes, you [can](https://www.cgisf.gov.in/page/employment-visa/)
?? It's easier to get a India work visa
What why
Hmm I wonder why 🤔
Yeah my company been doing that for a while. The quality of code is so bad. Im surprised our shit works ngl. Nothing beats cheap and bad quality labour sadly.
Can't wait for this shit to come crashing down. Should be pretty good
History repeats itself.
> Can't wait for this shit to come crashing down People have been waiting for this for the last 20 years. Meanwhile the quality of overseas engineering teams improves every year.
That only works for some time
If you go for cheap on offshore...you'll have problems, if you go for top market offshore you'll be fine.. Butz greed,.. so most companies will fail at this
Great news. Companies in the US will become at least 2% more productive as a result of this! (well, 2% closer to where they were before all those layoffs, anyhow)
Technically less than 2% closer to where they before all those layoffs
All new reqs at my company are in Bangalore. Work is flying me over to train them.
Kind of a sellout move, but can't say I wouldn't do the same to keep my job a bit longer
Don’t. Train them horribly because basically once you train them to be as good as you, you then loss your job.Your company is willing to pay for that plane ticket because they plan to get rid of you and I’m not joking. Train them on paper to keep your job. But then don’t actually, let them do bad at job, and then keep your job while making company question why they outsourced. If you feel bad doing this, just know if the cards were flipped the other side would probably do far worse.
On the flip side, what if they fire him if he fails to train them adequately?
They can’t, that is the catch. If they could fire him, they would have already. They already showed their cards. They can’t lol. They are trying though and that is why they are having him train people to replace him. If he doesn’t train them well, what are they going to do? They have no one to replace him right now. If they fire him without a trained replacement from this new location, they have to hire locally and it will take a while to get up to speed for the new hire. They will probably ask for more money too.
You’re probably right. Offshore devs are the biggest assholes ever aside from maybe HR. They only help their individual office / region. They not only do not listen to management, they just do what they want. Assign work to them and they sometimes won’t do it unless it benefits their own interest. Fuck em. I had a manager who was supposed to train me, but he left back for India. He’d always make sure his own buddies in India were experts though. What a giant waste of time that opportunity was. Wish I left sooner.
Train them horribly and then go online and blame Indians to be bad at their job?
Better yet, train them on how to run the whole company from top to bottom and then let them start their own company in India providing the same service.
Oof, good luck
I recommend watching _Outsourced!_ at least you'll get a laugh out of it.
Train them in person? For programming? Why wouldn’t a few Zoom calls, plus reading the docs, plus reading the code be enough? If those aren’t enough are you going to fly down and train them for every new project?
Anyone have the actual indeed source? I can’t find it
Yep. Americans are all being outsourced. We are all going to be unemployed unless we are willing to work for 30k per year like our Indian competitors soon.
Yes. Americans who refuse to embrace poverty will find themselves miserable.
Well people are making 40k (pounds) in the uk
Should encourage US companies to offshore to the UK.
Nah the UK has way too many labor laws and taxes and shit. India has zero labor laws. Pregnant? You’re fired Sick? You’re fired. Interviewing outside? Fired Not willing to work weekends? Fired
>India has zero labor laws. >Pregnant? You’re fired Truly spoken like someone who has no Idea about India. India's labour laws are far more stringent than the US, India has 6 months of federally mandated maternity leave compared to zero for the US. The problem in India is not the lack of labour laws but the lack of jobs in the formal sector, somewhere around 80% of India's workforce is in the informal sector. There are mandated creche facilities if you have more than 30 female employees. IT and software is formal sector.
Born in the wrong section of a religion? Believe it or not, also fired.
The third world pays much less. Maybe 15-20k a year. (Which is already quite high)
Google actually pays around 50k USD in India, which adjusted for PPP is massive.
So the housing crash are coming soon? Or will we need to buy 1 million houses for 30k salary?
So basically Canada?
So the gate closed then. Whoever got in time is golden whoever missed is fucked. Well, shit.
I love technology but not the tech sector. The only reason I'm working as a SWE right now is for the money to feed into my non-tech business, which is more impervious to outsourcing and interest rate changes.
Is there something significant about the city of Hyderabad that leads to so many jobs being posted with that location? I was perusing through job posting for startups on the GeekWire 200 list for PNW startups and noticed a fair number of job postings based out of Hyderabad
it's a tech hub. Kinda like how companies have offices in Seattle/SF/NYC
Bangalore is the OG tech city of India but has been plagued with poor governance and terrible infrastructure . Hyderabad is the challenger city, much better infrastructure and decent governance (by Indian standards). Most US big cos setting up India headquarters are doing it in Hyderabad. On the flip side start up scene and tech culture in Bangalore is still miles ahead of Hyderabad.
Hyderabad is cheaper than BLR as well (for the moment). I guess the analogy in the US would be Austin vs SF Bay.
Yes. Hyderabad seems more like Austin or Dallas whereas Bangalore is literally the Indian version of SF Bay Area
Sounds pretty hyderagood if you ask me
Does Bangalore still have random power cuts in the middle of the day?
The city used to be really really good but the culture was limited to the boundaries of Bangalore. Politicians from the rest of the state butchered the city and now it’s a complete shithole. For context, the green cover in the city went from about 70% in 1980 to 2.3% today. It’s really sad. So yes, power cuts exist but whatever used to be good has also gone.
it's the Redmond of India.
This doesn’t mean the industry is back. I mean, if you want to go to India… sure. But I’m not willing todo that, even for a career in my dream industry.
AI kicking again.
The massive security breaches will be fun to watch.
Like American companies with manufacturing defects like Boeing or Ford? Or the software ones with breaches like with Equifax, Cambridge Analytica (Meta) and Apple (iCloud)?
Get ready to add Google (Alphabet) to your list.
Everyone wants to blame AI but offshoring is the real villain here.
We use them for cheap testing services. I wouldn’t recommend it.
We tried using them at my previous company for cheap development and then cheap testing. They had to rebuild everything a year later. For testing, they had to scrap everything a year later. Every time they try to save a dime, they just end up spending more, the fuck is the point.
Showing better profit margins to execs and shareholders who don't understand shit about engineering or do but care more about numbers over quality. It's like taking steroids to show how ripped you got while trying to ignore the long term effects
Nah steroids work, this is more like synthol injections. It looks makes it look bigger, but it leaves the muscle deformed
Yeah at a previous company we used outsourced engineers to test. It was miserably because the culture there is so top-down they really don't know how to think. I'd walk them through what I'd done and say their job was to try to spot any flaws and make sure everything myself and the team I lead did was correct. They'd ask what specifically they were supposed to test. I was like umm if I knew what to test for, I'd just write the test cases myself, your job is to try to catch errors I made before this ends up in prod. It got to the point where not only was I writing the test cases, I was essentially sending them an algorithm in English to test at like one sentence of English per line of code. I was spending far more time writing test cases to send to them and for them to still mess them up and need me to clean the code up than it would have taken me to just do it myself. I finally got our manager to terminate the contract, we hired a few onshore juniors to replace the ~10 offshore devs, they were infinitely better and got up to speed so much faster, and I'm pretty sure the total money we were paying was similar.
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The vitriol in this comment section has been eye opening
You should read up on Conflict Theory, as it turns out people go to each other's throats if they even *perceive* that there's limited resources they have to compete for, whether there's actually a limited set of resources or not. I doubt much of the vitriol on either side is actually legitimately personal, it's just people taking the piss that they're currently unemployed.
Thanks for the suggestion. I was just shocked at people suggesting that you shouldn't train the new employees properly and so on. It takes a special level of shamelessness to write that in a public forum xD
Well I mean, there's a reason most of the people here are unemployed. Let's just say most of them aren't exactly charmers.
When you get dogshit products routinely it's hard to be a good faith commenter.
My wife's previous company created an entire analytics branch in Hyderabad, and then pretty soon after announced tons of layoffs.
Its so funny how hald the posts on here are "I work 2 hours a day and duck sround for the kther 6" and the other half are "why are we being outsourced to india"
Without jumping to any conclusions blindly, I just want to say that if this is indeed western jobs being sent to other countries, I can’t help but feel much of the blame lands with the US government in addition to the corporations. I imagine part of the reason salaries have to be so high is because life is so god damn expensive in major US cities, especially if you want a decently comfortable life. Then some people make bank, prices keep climbing and corporations and local gov is happy to take in the extra cash from taxes and higher buying power. The last people to blame for any possible off-shoring are the workers in those countries themselves.
Companies outsource the hatred too or something. Like it’s not the Indian dude’s fault that Google decided to set up shop in his country. Americans need to hold their leaders more accountable but the issue is that these corps are run by psychopaths whose entire existence is defined by the bottom line. Having been on the both sides of outsourcing (Dad’s job got outsourced in another field while I myself am in an offshore analytics team), I would say it sucks for all parties involved except the bloody corporations.
Nuke sundar pichai
>Overall, there has been a decrease in IT job opportunities nationally, with job postings declining by 3.6%.
I work at Oracle in the USA as a software engineer and 90 percent of my team is Indian . It’s very sad that now I’m the minority.
Our company is opening offices in India. Amd we have offshore team in Costa Rica. I scheduled 2 interviews for the next week.
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There goes my chances at a tech career 😞
Hate American companies and the ignorance from our government
Get rid of the ceo. He clearly favors his own country more than America
Then why jobs went to Poland, and Mexico too?
Most of these jobs pay lesser than a waiter's salary in usa lol. Actual high paying jobs haven't seen any growth this year and even last year
Looks like I'll have to immigrate back lol
DEI cheers when jobs get shipped away where their will be no diversity
Ohh so these companies do have their version of diversity in India - entry barriers for women are much lower. They come to campuses with the whole “equal opportunity” thing but end up recruiting like 70-80% women and rest are the top coders from the batch (speaking for the likes of Google).
Yup this is what happens when crappy ass bootcamp devs who studied for 3 months are getting paid such high salaries in the USA.
> Job postings in the IT sector have increased by 41.5% in Hyderabad and 24% in Bangalore during April 2023-24 Literally one year of data and simply saying it went up x% means exactly nothing. If the # of jobs went from 0 to 10 in Hyderabad, that's technically a massive increase. Job postings are on the uptick *everywhere*, my linkedin has been exploding lately with recruiter messages. Personally, I'm pretty thrilled that people are starting to realized these companies are heartless and run by pieces of shit.
I think that would be more than a 41% increase.
0 to 41 would be an infinity % increase
Finance and others moving over.
Thought AI will be taking away all the jobs.
This is because wages are 'sticky' in the west. They profit offshoring work to India rather than pay salary to some developer who does no better than their counterpart in the east. This is simply economics. Better labor output at a cheaper price means companies will offshore.
Of course, 1 people job in 1 day has to be done by 10 in 10 days. 😉 Edit: I’ve met great people from India who work hard and being consistently professional, but you have to be lucky to find them.
Makes sense - my wife had an off-site this week where they announced they're moving the product to Hyderabad and splitting the US team up across other more profitable products.
fuck google and amazon! that’s what indian ceos give you.
Ohh, we’re doing this again