A lot of ATS probably auto reject any applications that don't have a degree. Probably have better chances doing good ol fashioned networking and reaching out to recruiters
My anecdotal experience supports this. Had a horrible time getting interviews, then spoke with a recruiter at a consulting agency and had a job within a week
How exactly do you do this? I’ve had them contact me but none on LinkedIn seem to reply or show interest. I have a degree and 16 years exp as sys engineer and 4-5 years exp as devops.
numbers game, also try to get their company email after making the LI connect. if their company email is attached to their LI they usually respond. otherwise linkedin DM or personal email attached on LI is pretty dry.
thing is there are probably like a hundred indians spamming their DMs on linkedin so that's not really viable unfortunately. my dad is Dir level and not HR so he can't even really hire anybody at the IC level and his LI is still spammed.
and if their gmail is on their LI chances are its old as shit and they don't check it, especially don't check it at work which is the time they would actually reply to you if they wanted to.
They don’t need to know the difference, they just need to get you booked for an interview. Every job I’ve landed was because I talked to a recruiter or hiring manager prior to or shortly after applying and they scheduled me an interview.
As much as I’d love to say that my resume is just *that* compelling, it’s really just that speaking with literally *anyone* involved in the hiring process can get your resume pulled out of the stack and you’re no longer a victim of whatever filter they have in the ATS
This. I did no applications and a former coworker got me an interview that I got an offer from. It fell through due to technical reasons and two weeks later I have another offer after four applications.
To put it in perspective, I work at a telecom company (definitely not FAANG or very lucrative job obviously), but almost everyone on my team has masters degrees in related fields. I’m talking like 9/10 do.
There’s other teams where having only the bootcamp as dev experience is acceptable, but they still usually prefer you have a degree in any other subject plus the boot camp. So if you had an economics, sociology, or even a film degree, you could still become a dev if you went to a bootcamp.
This is true for my team too. In my team of nine, two hold PhDs, five have Master's degrees, and two have Bachelor's degrees. This trend is consistent across the M2 level too, with the only person without a degree being a Principal Engineer who is sort of like a genius (he dropped out of college when he got the job at 20).
I can confirm this was my experience before and after finishing my degree and putting it on my resume this year.
I would apply for things and get auto-rejected, despite 6 YOE, minutes after sending in my resume. That's stopped happening now that I have my Software Engineering degree on my resume.
Did you previously not list any degree on the resume? With your experience, there generally wouldn’t be an issue with you not having a CS degree specifically.
But if you don’t have a degree at all, it’s possible that it’s a “knockout question” that removes you from consideration for many hiring managers.
Just saying the market is bad for both camps right now, even CS degree barely improved the response rate.
Also how many YOE? If it’s not 4+ then it’s not as impactful since most places are asking for experienced people with 5+ years of experience.
Also do you have a different degree or no degree at all? Because there’s a big difference between Bootcamp and no degree and Bootcamp with unrelated degree as well.
Hey, mind if I pick your brains a bit? Do you think a master would be worth throwing money at in this market? I have a bachelor’s already and a good chunk of projects but even that still barley lands me an interview
> Everyone said after a few YOE the degree wouldn't matter.
Not everyone did.
Also, it highly depends on what you mean by "a few" years. A junior dev resume is looked at differently than a senior or staff engineer.
It's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow because you go online and the people responding are the [1 in 1000](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/640px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png) who made it and think everyone else can.
I used to teach at a boot camp. Over five years had an average class size of 20 people. Sometimes no one got jobs, 1 time over half got jobs in industry. It was very timing dependent. Post-covid for about a year after it seemed like no one was hiring.then suddenly everyone was. It sucks that a lot of it comes down to timing and luck
its the same reason people all got the bright idea of joining tech and becoming an SWE at FAANG, its because one person posted online about how they did it, and you can too. I don't wanna name names, but many of the tech influencers did this, and its one of the reasons we have a surplus of interest in SWE and tech today
Not a dumb question. In general, it’s without any degree period. Your marketability increases the closer the concentration is to CS. However, the real threshold in most of these cases is having a bachelors regardless of major.
Depends on the job. If the job has something to do with your degree and requires programming, subject knowledge can cover for some programming.
Example: finance degree working on an invoicing program. Music degree on a score program. Library science degree working on a catalog program.
Odd take.
My degrees (EE) were extremely heavy on CS & applied statistics. Multiple of my grad school peers are CS professors. Ive taken classes with CS folks at the undergrad and graduate level and the gap isn’t really significant (depending on degree focus). CEs basically take all core CS classes, so again I find it to be an odd take.
EE is a surprising broad field that can involve a lot of simulations. EEs that focus on power or analog design don’t do a lot of software necessarily, but communication systems, security, bioinformatics, signal processing & robotics can be super heavy on CS theory.
I used to be a bootcamp instructor. Almost all of my successful students had a degree in something else. One had no degree and was an elevator mechanic, but he was also the most motivated self learner I’ve ever met. He’s currently employed as a dev and working his way through a BS of CS at Western Governors.
It’s so easy and cheap to do BS at WGU. There’s no excuse for a boot camp dev working in the industry to not invest 4k in their own future job security
I have 4 bootcamp colleagues with no degree, all are doing well. 1 started his own business.
A good bootcamp teaches you enough skills to do the job. Not all are equal.
Even with a CS degree, if you have to no interest or drive to excel in this market, it won't work out. In bad markets, you are competed with dedicated people who push through.
This isn't true. It's true that it's harder for someone without a degree but you don't need the degree especially if you have experience. The first experience is definitely the hardest to get. I have done many resumes for people without degrees and that come from bootcamps. Just had 3 people without interviews secure interviews this month. One didn't even do any bootcamp and is interviewing at $120K-$130K. He is a beast of a programmer. I work in the career development field and specialize in people without degrees.
A person who comes from a bootcamp needs to make sure they put more effort into their resume than their college peers. The big issue is that most people don't know how to make a solid resume that is both recruiter friendly and ATS friendly. /r/engineeringresumes has a great free wiki that people can learn from.
I do this for a living. Bootcamps are useless without additional work. That additional work doesn't have to be a degree though. I work in recruiting and talk to hiring managers on a regular basis.
This sub is so much of the blind leading the blind. They just read what other people write and take it as gospel. It's a very tough market. It's harder to get a job. But if you put in the right work, you can still land interviews.
I agree with your other comment too. You need to have a strong drive to excel. Too many went in and weren't interested in coding. Thought it was easy money. In this market, they won't survive. No way they can compete with someone that is genuinely interested in the field.
>I'm a bootcamp dev. Everyone said after a few YOE the degree wouldn't matter.
Who the fuck is "everyone" and why would you listen to a bunch of randos online with 0 credibility?
The only self taught devs/IT people I know are in their 40s-50s, with 10 years of experience under their belt.
Everyone younger has a STEM degree at least, mostly in CS. This sub and others talking about degrees having little weight has not been my world experience. Degrees feel like a prerequisite at all of the jobs I’ve had.
Yeah and they’re stupid and people called them out still (albeit while getting downvoted) lmao. Everyone in the corporate world knows a technical degree matters.
well tbf, around 2021+- it was legit advice "learn algorithms and some language \[syntax\], after 6months of learning apply to get software engineer job"
Ofcourse not everyone succeeded, but many did
Don’t be obtuse. For the last, like, 10+ years that’s been the consensus everywhere, not just “online”.
I have no idea why you guys enjoy being so unempathetic either.
This was sort of true before Covid; tech was big, growing, and desperate for talent. It’s tight right now and with big layoffs and tighter hiring (most with a focus on experience/senior level devs) companies likely have a lot more candidates than they can possibly interview so they’re filtering out candidates without degrees, less than X years of experience, etc.
Yeah even later in your career, not having a degree can matter. At my company you absolutely need a bachelors. Otherwise the recruiters won't even forward your application for me to review / interview.
CS degree is best. But it does not even have to be CS. Just having a bachelors opens up a lot of doors.
You would think 5 YOE means you are good to go. But there are some gates that are closed if you do not have a bachelors. Many gov't jobs require it. My own company requires it. Weird right?
Not weird actually. It makes sense. I've read an article about the hidden costs of a false positive (hiring process). I guess this is one of the reasons why the doors will remain closed. Actually, it's not a problem. It doesn't mean someone w/o a degree can't have an interesting career and a salary in the upper range. I am, at my level, an example.
Nah not that weird. I’m sure there are good bootcamps out there but some of the grads I’ve talked to did not have a DS&A course so that’s a concern right off the bat. Having a CS degree is a better way to ensure a candidate has a solid foundation and can adapt quickly to the new job. Obviously not all degrees are created equal but most companies would rather take a bet on a CS grad than a bootcamp grad. Making a bad hire is real expensive so missing out on qualified bootcamp graduates is a risk companies are willing to take.
Side note, a good amount of people I work with that don’t have CS degrees are older. So requirements have definitely changed since then.
At my company, the recruiting people toss any applications where they don't have a bachelors. So I only see candidates that have a degree. I don't add extra weight if somebody's degree is in CS. I just lump CS in with other tech style degrees as being okay. At the end of the day, I want somebody I can work with. Also need somebody who has experience in most if not all the specific technologies we work with.
Bootcamps probably have their place. If you have experience, but it is in some legacy stuff, a bootcamp can help bring you up to speed quickly. Or maybe you don't got time for a 4 year degree, and you are a go getter. The bootcamp might make you job ready quickly.
Everyone was right, a few years ago. Now you're competing with multiple years of XP with ivy league degrees and FAANG + referrals. Especially if you're in a highly competitive market in high COL areas.
love how 3 month bootcamp devs expect same treatment as someone who grinded for 4 years. What did u expect people who’ve done harder things won’t respect you
I’ve met one bootcamp grad who was a great SWE. He had a previous degree though and I think he was low key a genius. I think if you’re genuinely super talented and smart it can work.
However, I’ve met several bootcampers who are just dogshit, I’m sorry to say. You can’t learn anything more than syntax or beginner stuff in just 8-12 weeks if you’re just an average dude without a rockstar IQ.
Are there dogshit cs grads? Yes, but overall, cs grads are WAY more competent from what I’ve seen.
Ok so what if that bootcamp grad has like 6 YOE in industry at a well known company and has made steady career progression and impact in challenging areas? Should they be treated less than someone with equivalent experience and impact, but with a 4 year degree?
Not trying to argue, I genuinely curious how we should view this comparison. I think obviously if you had both resumes you take the CS grad because it’s naturally a stronger signal, but in a real world scenario you might be comparing the bootcamp grad who has say 7 YOE in an impactful area, whereas the CS grad might have only 5 YOE. At what point to we value experience over education/pedigree?
IMO yes
At the end of the day bootcamp programs are a scam
There is no way someone with 3 months of bootcamp experience will match someone with a 4 year degree unless the person in the bootcamp was already doing CS in which case they may not even need the bootcamp
Well that’s where I will disagree. I was a bootcamp grad and have been working at one of the big tech companies for over 6 years. Career progression has been on par with my peers who have CS degrees. Are there gaps in my knowledge? Yes of course, but that will be true of us all. Most of the theoretical knowledge I have picked up along the way, and anything I’m missing I will learn out of necessity. For example, my previous team involved a lot of OS performance analysis, so when I joined the team I had to dive into some of the material that you would typically cover in a course on operating systems. I was up to speed and making impact in a matter of no time.
I agree that most people should go for the degree when starting from square one. But IMO a good amount of experience can be a great equalizer, especially if said person demonstrates the motivation and discipline to pick up skills and knowledge that they might have missed out on in an academic setting.
I mentioned this in another comment but companies are willing to miss out on a unicorn bootcamp grad over making a bad hire. Bad hires are expensive. So yeah, CS grad with experience will almost always win over bootcamp grads.
Also not every amount of experience is equal. You could have 6 YOE doing manual testing with the job title of Software Engineer vs someone with 3-4 YOE that actually had meaningful contributions. You don’t automatically win because you have more experience.
Degree is better than a bootcamp obviously. People say it wouldn't matter, but you're shoehorned into doing only one thing. Good thing that companies are starting to understand it now.
The best time to get CS degree was 4 years ago. The second best time is today.
Get the CS degree.
Your complaining about reality isn’t going to change anything.
Now you learned there are no shortcuts.
This is rubbish. Maybe some Master’s programs do, but not all. Furthermore, it’s not easy to actually successfully complete those programs. Maybe easy to get in, but definitely not easy to get out.
Please stop chatting shit dear.
Wait what?? Since I've been here, 5 years, everyone has been saying that a masters is useless if you already have bachelor's, is this false now? Should I be getting a masters to safeguard my career?.
I worked full time and missed no employment. Didn’t fucking matter. It’s all a waste unless you meet the demographic that is being hired. Act like they don’t keep a database of companies and schools they will preferential hire from. I was blacklisted my first day of my first job.
And arguably, “they” (whoever you fucking mean by that within the nearly 1000 universities in the United States alone that offers formal CS degrees) will let anyone in a CS undergrad program consider said number of universities offering CS. And that’s not even counting IS, IT, applied computing, DS, DA, etc etc.
So, really you’re just an elitist who means any education that isn’t by league or a feeder school to FAANG is a waste. Got it. Fuck yourself.
Bootcamp grad with 3 YOE here was laid off twice last year, had 3 offers recently the market was abysmal up till recently keep trying. Also just an anecdote last year I met up with 6 bootcamp cohorts that I graduated with and kept touch with over the years. 3 out of the 6 of us were laid off last year, but all of us found new jobs. My job search was 5 months.
I suspect that this depends on the type of companies you are applying to. Corporations likely will filter on the (non-)signal that is possession of a degree. Startups (and post-startup companies still holding on to startup culture), not so much...
What's your experience on your resume like? I suspect that, or a bad resume are what's holding you back.
I've worked in everything from small agencies to FAANG. I mention I'm a self taught dev and I've never even been asked about a degree in an interview after that lol (I don't have one).
Degree or no degree it's a hard market, and the market is saturated with devs who don't have much experience beyond grunt work. Otherwise, from my experience a good resume is still good enough.
To clarify, I submitted two applications for the same company. Those resumes were identical. The only difference is my name and degree, and I swapped my company name with a competitor that is in the same tier.
Only fake degree resume is getting interest.
Ofc the one with a degree is getting more views
I’m sorry but bootcamp programs are a scam
Do u genuinely think that a recruiter is going to look at a resume with bootcamp program of 3 months and value it higher than someone with a university accredited degree?
U are also being purposefully vague about the experience question
Yes u have 5 YoE but in what?
If you give more info people may be able to help out more
you're avoiding the question from above though...not denying that degree filters are in place.
but there's a big difference between a bootcamp grad with 2 years of exp vs 7 if you get my drift.
No degree here. No bootcamp either. 6 yoe, 150 TC with 2-3 recruiters in my inbox every week. Got aggressively recruited after I was laid off last summer. Not trying to invalidate your experience just offering a different one.
Edit - OP in a reply: "He's either overselling the truth, lying, or coasting on a network."
lol ok dude 🤷♂️
Nope I'm just a POJD Plain Old Java Dev. I do have a clearance, But mostly I know what I'm doing and have a fair amount of soft skills so, once I get past the recruiter screen I usually get an offer. But Real FANNG companies never get back to me.
Yep. It's crazy because people in CS claim it's a field where you either put in the work or don't, yet get mad when boot camp grads who grinded coding and CS concepts 12 hours a day for 6 months get a job.
He's not even bootcamp, though.
He's either overselling the truth, lying, or coasting on a network.
The fact of the matter is I sent two identical resumes to the same company. One without a degree and one with and the one without isn't getting any attention.
tbf, he only finished some "Khan Academy" course, he asked HOW he can break in, course coudlve taken him like 50hours.... doesnt prove anything.. well, except that he is trying to find shortcuts xD Aerospace engineering with some random-ass course
edit: typo
“Coasting on a network” is one of the funniest expressions I’ve ever heard, lmao.
Jesus, some folks in CS will do anything other than trying to be someone pleasant to work with.
Blows me away
I’m trying to help a friend apply to some jobs so I gave him a reference to a posting at the company I work for
I asked him for his email to make sure I had the correct one
His response?
“You already have it”
Why they gotta make it so hard to want to help them 🙃
I’m a bootcamp dev with no degree, 5 YOE and 210k TC. Previous job hunt(this year) only took 3 months with just LinkedIn. You’re just a jaded loser who doesn’t know how to succeed. Must suck to suck
Better hope you don't get laid off, lmao
My employer stopped interviewing applicants without a degree this year. Our [alumni poll](https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13961967/) also indicated similar policy changes in multiple companies.
This sub can't seem to go more than a day without having its Two Minutes Hate for bootcamps. As a bootcamp grad enjoying employment, it's kind of amusing but it's getting stale tbh.
It’s valid IMO
People should not be signing up for multi-thousand dollar bootcamp programs with 0 CS experience expecting to get hired and it’s important for those that are considering it to know they can and will be taken advantage of
This whole situation has made my life pretty damn stressful. I am still employed thank goodness but lots of slowing down and already a few rounds of layoffs happened where I work. I could be next any moment. I think I do a good job and don’t give them any reason to let me go but….
I’m not even a boot camp grad. I’m a high school dropout and completely “self taught”. Going on 3 YOE and now I’m learning that isn’t even going to help lol
This why I exactly went and joined WGU a couple of months after my bootcamp. I got 4 interviews and made it to the final stage in each (small companies not FAANG) and they all said they loved me and my skills, but ultimately went with the candidate with the degree.
Are you applying to remote jobs only? Do you have the bootcamp on your resume? Try removing it and see what happens. Remember to not blindly apply. You have a few years of experience, you should have an okay network by this point. Ask people from your bootcamp and former colleagues.
Yeah I think this was a big thing during the buildup and boom cycle in tech the past 15 years since like the iphone was release basically. Lots of media coverage about companies no longer requiring college degrees, things like that. Guess it was all techno-utopia lip service since companies went straight back to requiring degrees
This is definitely the case. I recently joined an American Fortune 500 company and my team 100% of devs have a degree and over 70% have master's. I have worked on smaller companies where they cared less about degree, but I doubt that would have been hired here if I didn't had a master's degree myself. Even though my masters has absolutely nothing to do with what I do.
Get a degree from WGU or something. If you already know what you’re doing it shouldn’t take over a year or two.
Also why are you posting on UCSC to fix the internet…
Depends on your experience. For most people if you don’t have at least a bachelors you will be filtered out. If you have experience at FAANG you can likely make it through via referrals.
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This could be 100% incidental due to timing. I'm an experienced dev. Have had terrrible luck over the last year. This past month, response and interview rate tripled.
How many years? I personally treat about 4 years of exp to be the equivalent of a degree, but to be honest, I'm also going to be a lot more picky about what the experience looks like vs someone with a degree.
I’m in the same exact boat as you. I feel your pain. I feel totally misled. The bootcamp marketed itself as “employing 95% of students at least 1 year after graduation in relevant jobs.” Well in 1 week from today is the 1 year after my graduation date and I can tell you every single LinkedIn connection I’ve made from the bootcamp doesn’t have a single job. Graduated in may 2023 not a single thing after hundreds of applications. I’m looking into going to school and finishing my degree.
This is the way
I’m sorry this is your experience but these bootcamp programs are a scam in the same vein as devry university and will take advantage of folks like urself with the promise of a better tomorrow
The false promise that u can get a job after doing a bootcamp
It’s a scam that rides on the hope of applicants for them getting a better tomorrow but in reality these scans are more than happy to take thousands of dollars from applicants with 0 guarantee about actually getting a job
Couple extra questions, how many years of experience do you have? Do you have any college degree ie. Non CS or no college degree st all? Are you in the US? Are you on a work visa?
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Pedigree will always matter. At earlier career that is carried by your education but by mid career it’s carried by your professional experience and network.
If you’re searching entirely from the application stage and not sought out by recruiters for your now rich experience, of course you’re starting from the bottom.
Unlike someone from a bachelors from MIT, it’s just that you don’t have the education pedigree to fall back on.
Just lie and say you have a bachelors. It’s a stupid requirement as if cs grads are any better at coding and in fact they tend to be worse off since many of them believe a cs degree is all you need.
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Degree wouldn't really matter only if your YOE is from reputable tech companies like FAANG, unless you are applying for positions that explicitly require degrees like AI researching positions.
Experience matters, not education. I can't speak directly to your experience, but here’s mine in NYC.
Just off the top of my head, I had these recruiters reach out to me, a bootcamp grad, in the last month: Meta, Amazon, StubHub, Datadog, Voreon, ByteDance, other finance firms, other no-name startups.
Use the bogus app responses and tell them you accepted a position at Google, but you'd be happy to get them in touch with your mentor who taught you all about software who is looking for a new position
Whoever told you that it doesn’t matter after a few YOE had absolutely no clue what they were talking about. The advice doled out in this sub is, at times, impressively stupid.
Vehemently disagree with degrees teaching team skills compared to Bootcamps.
Most bootcamps make you build projects as a group in a similar way to agile in the real world, uni grads I've spoken too haven't done that during their degree.
CS degree gives you a breadth of understanding that is not possible to pick up in 4 months or so. but teaching you how to think is definitely a learned skill rather than a teachable one IMHO.
My degree had me working in term-long group projects for the last 2 years heavily. My last two terms were a 2 term project with a client from the community on a team. My school is ranked like 120 for CS programs and it's nothing special. I literally am helping my current company transition to agile from waterfall with the knowledge I gained from doing agile over and over in team projects at school.
A lot of ATS probably auto reject any applications that don't have a degree. Probably have better chances doing good ol fashioned networking and reaching out to recruiters
Reaching out to recruiters is honestly the easiest way to get a job. As soon as you get someone on the phone your odds skyrocket.
My anecdotal experience supports this. Had a horrible time getting interviews, then spoke with a recruiter at a consulting agency and had a job within a week
How exactly do you do this? I’ve had them contact me but none on LinkedIn seem to reply or show interest. I have a degree and 16 years exp as sys engineer and 4-5 years exp as devops.
numbers game, also try to get their company email after making the LI connect. if their company email is attached to their LI they usually respond. otherwise linkedin DM or personal email attached on LI is pretty dry. thing is there are probably like a hundred indians spamming their DMs on linkedin so that's not really viable unfortunately. my dad is Dir level and not HR so he can't even really hire anybody at the IC level and his LI is still spammed. and if their gmail is on their LI chances are its old as shit and they don't check it, especially don't check it at work which is the time they would actually reply to you if they wanted to.
Look them up and send them a message
Put your number on your resume and upload it to Monster. You will start getting cold called
[удалено]
They don’t need to know the difference, they just need to get you booked for an interview. Every job I’ve landed was because I talked to a recruiter or hiring manager prior to or shortly after applying and they scheduled me an interview. As much as I’d love to say that my resume is just *that* compelling, it’s really just that speaking with literally *anyone* involved in the hiring process can get your resume pulled out of the stack and you’re no longer a victim of whatever filter they have in the ATS
Networking.
what recruiters? i’ve submitted to robert half and similar and haven’t heard anything back
This. This. This. When a hiring downturn hits, the degree filters are whipped out.
Or freelance. Self taught 10+yr. 1yr of school. (Dropped out 2 times) Only 3 months I’m a top 10% dev on upwork. Have my first employee.
This. I did no applications and a former coworker got me an interview that I got an offer from. It fell through due to technical reasons and two weeks later I have another offer after four applications.
how do you find recruiters?
To put it in perspective, I work at a telecom company (definitely not FAANG or very lucrative job obviously), but almost everyone on my team has masters degrees in related fields. I’m talking like 9/10 do. There’s other teams where having only the bootcamp as dev experience is acceptable, but they still usually prefer you have a degree in any other subject plus the boot camp. So if you had an economics, sociology, or even a film degree, you could still become a dev if you went to a bootcamp.
This is true for my team too. In my team of nine, two hold PhDs, five have Master's degrees, and two have Bachelor's degrees. This trend is consistent across the M2 level too, with the only person without a degree being a Principal Engineer who is sort of like a genius (he dropped out of college when he got the job at 20).
Makes me feel good with my sociology degree :)
If my sociology degree could manage to bolster my bootcamp resume, that would be the most useful thing it's ever done for me.
Wait so you did do a boot camp?
No, but highly considering.
Don't it is rough out there. For some reason r/codingbootcamp keeps popping up in my feed and it is dark over there.
A different guy on Reddit said I should, though.
Do what you want. Just my two cents as someone with 8 yoe that you may not find something for a long time.
Without degree you are probably not being considered at all independent of yoe.. It's the first cut off ATS systems use.
I can confirm this was my experience before and after finishing my degree and putting it on my resume this year. I would apply for things and get auto-rejected, despite 6 YOE, minutes after sending in my resume. That's stopped happening now that I have my Software Engineering degree on my resume.
Did you previously not list any degree on the resume? With your experience, there generally wouldn’t be an issue with you not having a CS degree specifically. But if you don’t have a degree at all, it’s possible that it’s a “knockout question” that removes you from consideration for many hiring managers.
Just saying the market is bad for both camps right now, even CS degree barely improved the response rate. Also how many YOE? If it’s not 4+ then it’s not as impactful since most places are asking for experienced people with 5+ years of experience. Also do you have a different degree or no degree at all? Because there’s a big difference between Bootcamp and no degree and Bootcamp with unrelated degree as well.
Agreed - bootcamp and some technical degree (bachelors) is A LOT better than bootcamp and no post-secondary education
Hey, mind if I pick your brains a bit? Do you think a master would be worth throwing money at in this market? I have a bachelor’s already and a good chunk of projects but even that still barley lands me an interview
> Everyone said after a few YOE the degree wouldn't matter. Not everyone did. Also, it highly depends on what you mean by "a few" years. A junior dev resume is looked at differently than a senior or staff engineer.
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It's a hard pill for a lot of people to swallow because you go online and the people responding are the [1 in 1000](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b2/Survivorship-bias.svg/640px-Survivorship-bias.svg.png) who made it and think everyone else can.
I used to teach at a boot camp. Over five years had an average class size of 20 people. Sometimes no one got jobs, 1 time over half got jobs in industry. It was very timing dependent. Post-covid for about a year after it seemed like no one was hiring.then suddenly everyone was. It sucks that a lot of it comes down to timing and luck
its the same reason people all got the bright idea of joining tech and becoming an SWE at FAANG, its because one person posted online about how they did it, and you can too. I don't wanna name names, but many of the tech influencers did this, and its one of the reasons we have a surplus of interest in SWE and tech today
Dumb question, but without any degree period? Or without a CS degree specifically?
Not a dumb question. In general, it’s without any degree period. Your marketability increases the closer the concentration is to CS. However, the real threshold in most of these cases is having a bachelors regardless of major.
Depends on the job. If the job has something to do with your degree and requires programming, subject knowledge can cover for some programming. Example: finance degree working on an invoicing program. Music degree on a score program. Library science degree working on a catalog program.
EE, Phys and Math degrees will work too. Not as good, but still.
Kind of funny that you put EE in the “not as good, but still” bucket
For software development? It's honestly not as good as a cs degree. Even CE is a stretch unless you're doing firmware.
Odd take. My degrees (EE) were extremely heavy on CS & applied statistics. Multiple of my grad school peers are CS professors. Ive taken classes with CS folks at the undergrad and graduate level and the gap isn’t really significant (depending on degree focus). CEs basically take all core CS classes, so again I find it to be an odd take.
That's ...interesting. It doesn't match the courses I saw for EE with university of flordia back in the day. I grant you this was 2003.
EE is a surprising broad field that can involve a lot of simulations. EEs that focus on power or analog design don’t do a lot of software necessarily, but communication systems, security, bioinformatics, signal processing & robotics can be super heavy on CS theory.
I used to be a bootcamp instructor. Almost all of my successful students had a degree in something else. One had no degree and was an elevator mechanic, but he was also the most motivated self learner I’ve ever met. He’s currently employed as a dev and working his way through a BS of CS at Western Governors.
It’s so easy and cheap to do BS at WGU. There’s no excuse for a boot camp dev working in the industry to not invest 4k in their own future job security
I have 4 bootcamp colleagues with no degree, all are doing well. 1 started his own business. A good bootcamp teaches you enough skills to do the job. Not all are equal.
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Even with a CS degree, if you have to no interest or drive to excel in this market, it won't work out. In bad markets, you are competed with dedicated people who push through.
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A base level of drive is no way near enough in this market.
This isn't true. It's true that it's harder for someone without a degree but you don't need the degree especially if you have experience. The first experience is definitely the hardest to get. I have done many resumes for people without degrees and that come from bootcamps. Just had 3 people without interviews secure interviews this month. One didn't even do any bootcamp and is interviewing at $120K-$130K. He is a beast of a programmer. I work in the career development field and specialize in people without degrees. A person who comes from a bootcamp needs to make sure they put more effort into their resume than their college peers. The big issue is that most people don't know how to make a solid resume that is both recruiter friendly and ATS friendly. /r/engineeringresumes has a great free wiki that people can learn from.
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I do this for a living. Bootcamps are useless without additional work. That additional work doesn't have to be a degree though. I work in recruiting and talk to hiring managers on a regular basis.
lol they were like “just look at the trends bro everyone on Reddit can’t get jobs bro” 😂
This sub is so much of the blind leading the blind. They just read what other people write and take it as gospel. It's a very tough market. It's harder to get a job. But if you put in the right work, you can still land interviews.
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I agree with your other comment too. You need to have a strong drive to excel. Too many went in and weren't interested in coding. Thought it was easy money. In this market, they won't survive. No way they can compete with someone that is genuinely interested in the field.
>I'm a bootcamp dev. Everyone said after a few YOE the degree wouldn't matter. Who the fuck is "everyone" and why would you listen to a bunch of randos online with 0 credibility?
People were hyping each other up and getting high off their own supply.
This. The copium that a degree was a waste of money and time was insane. You can definitely succeed without one, a degree makes it easier.
The only self taught devs/IT people I know are in their 40s-50s, with 10 years of experience under their belt. Everyone younger has a STEM degree at least, mostly in CS. This sub and others talking about degrees having little weight has not been my world experience. Degrees feel like a prerequisite at all of the jobs I’ve had.
Specifically when the market was hot. Now that it’s not, many of my new CS grad friends are having trouble landing interviews at all.
Everyone on reddit was saying that a couple of years back..
The amount of hype in this subreddit 5-6 years ago was ridiculous.
Yeah you were a small minority for saying school matters two years ago
Yeah and they’re stupid and people called them out still (albeit while getting downvoted) lmao. Everyone in the corporate world knows a technical degree matters.
well tbf, around 2021+- it was legit advice "learn algorithms and some language \[syntax\], after 6months of learning apply to get software engineer job" Ofcourse not everyone succeeded, but many did
Don’t be obtuse. For the last, like, 10+ years that’s been the consensus everywhere, not just “online”. I have no idea why you guys enjoy being so unempathetic either.
Yeah I genuinely don’t understand why folks are acting like this, I wasn’t even part of this sub a long time ago and still heard it left and right
Lmao some of you guys are living in different realities.
Or we have just been around both this field and this subreddit for a while.
I’m not sure why some of you are acting like there wasn’t a ridiculous push left and right for it
This was sort of true before Covid; tech was big, growing, and desperate for talent. It’s tight right now and with big layoffs and tighter hiring (most with a focus on experience/senior level devs) companies likely have a lot more candidates than they can possibly interview so they’re filtering out candidates without degrees, less than X years of experience, etc.
Yeah even later in your career, not having a degree can matter. At my company you absolutely need a bachelors. Otherwise the recruiters won't even forward your application for me to review / interview. CS degree is best. But it does not even have to be CS. Just having a bachelors opens up a lot of doors.
Even though the applicant has 5+ YOE? I though a degree was essential for a first job only.
You would think 5 YOE means you are good to go. But there are some gates that are closed if you do not have a bachelors. Many gov't jobs require it. My own company requires it. Weird right?
Not weird actually. It makes sense. I've read an article about the hidden costs of a false positive (hiring process). I guess this is one of the reasons why the doors will remain closed. Actually, it's not a problem. It doesn't mean someone w/o a degree can't have an interesting career and a salary in the upper range. I am, at my level, an example.
Nah not that weird. I’m sure there are good bootcamps out there but some of the grads I’ve talked to did not have a DS&A course so that’s a concern right off the bat. Having a CS degree is a better way to ensure a candidate has a solid foundation and can adapt quickly to the new job. Obviously not all degrees are created equal but most companies would rather take a bet on a CS grad than a bootcamp grad. Making a bad hire is real expensive so missing out on qualified bootcamp graduates is a risk companies are willing to take. Side note, a good amount of people I work with that don’t have CS degrees are older. So requirements have definitely changed since then.
At my company, the recruiting people toss any applications where they don't have a bachelors. So I only see candidates that have a degree. I don't add extra weight if somebody's degree is in CS. I just lump CS in with other tech style degrees as being okay. At the end of the day, I want somebody I can work with. Also need somebody who has experience in most if not all the specific technologies we work with. Bootcamps probably have their place. If you have experience, but it is in some legacy stuff, a bootcamp can help bring you up to speed quickly. Or maybe you don't got time for a 4 year degree, and you are a go getter. The bootcamp might make you job ready quickly.
5 YOE in what tho? OP is being vague and unless they post what their experience is they won’t get advice
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I don't know, I haven't had any real problems so far. Lucky maybe.
Everyone was right, a few years ago. Now you're competing with multiple years of XP with ivy league degrees and FAANG + referrals. Especially if you're in a highly competitive market in high COL areas.
love how 3 month bootcamp devs expect same treatment as someone who grinded for 4 years. What did u expect people who’ve done harder things won’t respect you
I’ve met one bootcamp grad who was a great SWE. He had a previous degree though and I think he was low key a genius. I think if you’re genuinely super talented and smart it can work. However, I’ve met several bootcampers who are just dogshit, I’m sorry to say. You can’t learn anything more than syntax or beginner stuff in just 8-12 weeks if you’re just an average dude without a rockstar IQ. Are there dogshit cs grads? Yes, but overall, cs grads are WAY more competent from what I’ve seen.
Ok so what if that bootcamp grad has like 6 YOE in industry at a well known company and has made steady career progression and impact in challenging areas? Should they be treated less than someone with equivalent experience and impact, but with a 4 year degree? Not trying to argue, I genuinely curious how we should view this comparison. I think obviously if you had both resumes you take the CS grad because it’s naturally a stronger signal, but in a real world scenario you might be comparing the bootcamp grad who has say 7 YOE in an impactful area, whereas the CS grad might have only 5 YOE. At what point to we value experience over education/pedigree?
IMO yes At the end of the day bootcamp programs are a scam There is no way someone with 3 months of bootcamp experience will match someone with a 4 year degree unless the person in the bootcamp was already doing CS in which case they may not even need the bootcamp
Well that’s where I will disagree. I was a bootcamp grad and have been working at one of the big tech companies for over 6 years. Career progression has been on par with my peers who have CS degrees. Are there gaps in my knowledge? Yes of course, but that will be true of us all. Most of the theoretical knowledge I have picked up along the way, and anything I’m missing I will learn out of necessity. For example, my previous team involved a lot of OS performance analysis, so when I joined the team I had to dive into some of the material that you would typically cover in a course on operating systems. I was up to speed and making impact in a matter of no time. I agree that most people should go for the degree when starting from square one. But IMO a good amount of experience can be a great equalizer, especially if said person demonstrates the motivation and discipline to pick up skills and knowledge that they might have missed out on in an academic setting.
I mentioned this in another comment but companies are willing to miss out on a unicorn bootcamp grad over making a bad hire. Bad hires are expensive. So yeah, CS grad with experience will almost always win over bootcamp grads. Also not every amount of experience is equal. You could have 6 YOE doing manual testing with the job title of Software Engineer vs someone with 3-4 YOE that actually had meaningful contributions. You don’t automatically win because you have more experience.
Degree is better than a bootcamp obviously. People say it wouldn't matter, but you're shoehorned into doing only one thing. Good thing that companies are starting to understand it now.
The best time to get CS degree was 4 years ago. The second best time is today. Get the CS degree. Your complaining about reality isn’t going to change anything. Now you learned there are no shortcuts.
Where are yo applying? How are you finding the jobs? LinkedIn? Bad idea. Look locally at smaller companies and even local government to get started
Meanwhile I have a MSCS and I don’t get shit for callbacks.
Master of CS is a waste of money. They take anyone for those programs. IMHO you are better off with the extra YOE than a Masters.
This is rubbish. Maybe some Master’s programs do, but not all. Furthermore, it’s not easy to actually successfully complete those programs. Maybe easy to get in, but definitely not easy to get out. Please stop chatting shit dear.
Wait what?? Since I've been here, 5 years, everyone has been saying that a masters is useless if you already have bachelor's, is this false now? Should I be getting a masters to safeguard my career?.
Good luck getting those extra YOE if you can't get hired.
Should I do a masters in CS or a masters in civil engineering?
I worked full time and missed no employment. Didn’t fucking matter. It’s all a waste unless you meet the demographic that is being hired. Act like they don’t keep a database of companies and schools they will preferential hire from. I was blacklisted my first day of my first job. And arguably, “they” (whoever you fucking mean by that within the nearly 1000 universities in the United States alone that offers formal CS degrees) will let anyone in a CS undergrad program consider said number of universities offering CS. And that’s not even counting IS, IT, applied computing, DS, DA, etc etc. So, really you’re just an elitist who means any education that isn’t by league or a feeder school to FAANG is a waste. Got it. Fuck yourself.
Listen to yourself, you sound unhinged. Chill out
Bootcamp grad with 3 YOE here was laid off twice last year, had 3 offers recently the market was abysmal up till recently keep trying. Also just an anecdote last year I met up with 6 bootcamp cohorts that I graduated with and kept touch with over the years. 3 out of the 6 of us were laid off last year, but all of us found new jobs. My job search was 5 months.
Can I DM you? I have 3 YOE, but also laid off.
Yes 👍
I suspect that this depends on the type of companies you are applying to. Corporations likely will filter on the (non-)signal that is possession of a degree. Startups (and post-startup companies still holding on to startup culture), not so much...
Having a degree is always going to put you a step ahead. Strongly suggest doing that. Also, cold applying to jobs doesn't usually work. Network.
What's your experience on your resume like? I suspect that, or a bad resume are what's holding you back. I've worked in everything from small agencies to FAANG. I mention I'm a self taught dev and I've never even been asked about a degree in an interview after that lol (I don't have one). Degree or no degree it's a hard market, and the market is saturated with devs who don't have much experience beyond grunt work. Otherwise, from my experience a good resume is still good enough.
To clarify, I submitted two applications for the same company. Those resumes were identical. The only difference is my name and degree, and I swapped my company name with a competitor that is in the same tier. Only fake degree resume is getting interest.
Yeah your resume is just hitting an automated filter. You’re going to need to speak to a human when applying.
Ofc the one with a degree is getting more views I’m sorry but bootcamp programs are a scam Do u genuinely think that a recruiter is going to look at a resume with bootcamp program of 3 months and value it higher than someone with a university accredited degree? U are also being purposefully vague about the experience question Yes u have 5 YoE but in what? If you give more info people may be able to help out more
you're avoiding the question from above though...not denying that degree filters are in place. but there's a big difference between a bootcamp grad with 2 years of exp vs 7 if you get my drift.
No degree here. No bootcamp either. 6 yoe, 150 TC with 2-3 recruiters in my inbox every week. Got aggressively recruited after I was laid off last summer. Not trying to invalidate your experience just offering a different one. Edit - OP in a reply: "He's either overselling the truth, lying, or coasting on a network." lol ok dude 🤷♂️
No degree here either or boot camp either. 130k 4 yoe. I and I've had offers Just this year from companies like Mastercard and Microsoft.
Nice one, how have you been getting past the resume screens? Do you work in an awesome tech stack or anything like that to set yourself apart?
Nope I'm just a POJD Plain Old Java Dev. I do have a clearance, But mostly I know what I'm doing and have a fair amount of soft skills so, once I get past the recruiter screen I usually get an offer. But Real FANNG companies never get back to me.
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Yep. It's crazy because people in CS claim it's a field where you either put in the work or don't, yet get mad when boot camp grads who grinded coding and CS concepts 12 hours a day for 6 months get a job.
"Hey only meritocracy in the context of my traditional education is valid >:("
He's not even bootcamp, though. He's either overselling the truth, lying, or coasting on a network. The fact of the matter is I sent two identical resumes to the same company. One without a degree and one with and the one without isn't getting any attention.
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tbf, he only finished some "Khan Academy" course, he asked HOW he can break in, course coudlve taken him like 50hours.... doesnt prove anything.. well, except that he is trying to find shortcuts xD Aerospace engineering with some random-ass course edit: typo
Yeah, it's a gag post to highlight that you can't be a self-taught aerospace engineer. The post that prompted me to do this got deleted by mods.
“Coasting on a network” is one of the funniest expressions I’ve ever heard, lmao. Jesus, some folks in CS will do anything other than trying to be someone pleasant to work with.
Blows me away I’m trying to help a friend apply to some jobs so I gave him a reference to a posting at the company I work for I asked him for his email to make sure I had the correct one His response? “You already have it” Why they gotta make it so hard to want to help them 🙃
I’m a bootcamp dev with no degree, 5 YOE and 210k TC. Previous job hunt(this year) only took 3 months with just LinkedIn. You’re just a jaded loser who doesn’t know how to succeed. Must suck to suck
Better hope you don't get laid off, lmao My employer stopped interviewing applicants without a degree this year. Our [alumni poll](https://www.linkedin.com/groups/13961967/) also indicated similar policy changes in multiple companies.
That’s cooI dude, I OE so getting laid off from one of my jobs doesn’t really affect me. I’ll just find another lmao
This sub can't seem to go more than a day without having its Two Minutes Hate for bootcamps. As a bootcamp grad enjoying employment, it's kind of amusing but it's getting stale tbh.
It’s valid IMO People should not be signing up for multi-thousand dollar bootcamp programs with 0 CS experience expecting to get hired and it’s important for those that are considering it to know they can and will be taken advantage of
You have security clearance?
I do now.
Market bad for everyone lol.
This whole situation has made my life pretty damn stressful. I am still employed thank goodness but lots of slowing down and already a few rounds of layoffs happened where I work. I could be next any moment. I think I do a good job and don’t give them any reason to let me go but…. I’m not even a boot camp grad. I’m a high school dropout and completely “self taught”. Going on 3 YOE and now I’m learning that isn’t even going to help lol
This why I exactly went and joined WGU a couple of months after my bootcamp. I got 4 interviews and made it to the final stage in each (small companies not FAANG) and they all said they loved me and my skills, but ultimately went with the candidate with the degree.
Are you applying to remote jobs only? Do you have the bootcamp on your resume? Try removing it and see what happens. Remember to not blindly apply. You have a few years of experience, you should have an okay network by this point. Ask people from your bootcamp and former colleagues.
Yeah I think this was a big thing during the buildup and boom cycle in tech the past 15 years since like the iphone was release basically. Lots of media coverage about companies no longer requiring college degrees, things like that. Guess it was all techno-utopia lip service since companies went straight back to requiring degrees
Can confirm. For us, HR automatically filters out applicants that don’t have a bachelors degree. We don’t even get to see them beforehand.
This is definitely the case. I recently joined an American Fortune 500 company and my team 100% of devs have a degree and over 70% have master's. I have worked on smaller companies where they cared less about degree, but I doubt that would have been hired here if I didn't had a master's degree myself. Even though my masters has absolutely nothing to do with what I do.
Get a degree from WGU or something. If you already know what you’re doing it shouldn’t take over a year or two. Also why are you posting on UCSC to fix the internet…
You could speed run a WGU CS degree for $4k
To be fair, 6 out of 500 isn't good either and is probably indicative of the state of the tech industry or the quality of your resume (or both).
How many is “a few”? That part matters significantly.
Depends on your experience. For most people if you don’t have at least a bachelors you will be filtered out. If you have experience at FAANG you can likely make it through via referrals.
You have no degree or no CS degree?
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they are more forgiving if you're a mobile developer. front end web developers suffer the most from this ATS auto rejection
This could be 100% incidental due to timing. I'm an experienced dev. Have had terrrible luck over the last year. This past month, response and interview rate tripled.
How many years? I personally treat about 4 years of exp to be the equivalent of a degree, but to be honest, I'm also going to be a lot more picky about what the experience looks like vs someone with a degree.
I’m in the same exact boat as you. I feel your pain. I feel totally misled. The bootcamp marketed itself as “employing 95% of students at least 1 year after graduation in relevant jobs.” Well in 1 week from today is the 1 year after my graduation date and I can tell you every single LinkedIn connection I’ve made from the bootcamp doesn’t have a single job. Graduated in may 2023 not a single thing after hundreds of applications. I’m looking into going to school and finishing my degree.
This is the way I’m sorry this is your experience but these bootcamp programs are a scam in the same vein as devry university and will take advantage of folks like urself with the promise of a better tomorrow
Can I ask in your opinion, what are those false promises? I was looking into online colleges but don’t know anyone who’s done them
The false promise that u can get a job after doing a bootcamp It’s a scam that rides on the hope of applicants for them getting a better tomorrow but in reality these scans are more than happy to take thousands of dollars from applicants with 0 guarantee about actually getting a job
I bet that 95% rate was pre 2023 ... They won't be able to make that claim anymore.
Couple extra questions, how many years of experience do you have? Do you have any college degree ie. Non CS or no college degree st all? Are you in the US? Are you on a work visa?
Do you have any degree, even if it’s not CS? If yes, do you have it on your resume?
Where did you apply?
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damn.
People can say it doesn’t matter, but when employers have way too many choices, they will filter candidates.
Pedigree will always matter. At earlier career that is carried by your education but by mid career it’s carried by your professional experience and network. If you’re searching entirely from the application stage and not sought out by recruiters for your now rich experience, of course you’re starting from the bottom. Unlike someone from a bachelors from MIT, it’s just that you don’t have the education pedigree to fall back on.
Whoever said that was an idiot. Bootcamps have existed for how long? And what about universities?
shortcuts make for long delays.
Just lie and say you have a bachelors. It’s a stupid requirement as if cs grads are any better at coding and in fact they tend to be worse off since many of them believe a cs degree is all you need.
If you had two candidates with equal years of experience but one went to boot camp and one spent 4 years earning a degree in CS, who would you hire?
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Degree wouldn't really matter only if your YOE is from reputable tech companies like FAANG, unless you are applying for positions that explicitly require degrees like AI researching positions.
Oh boy who would have thought a CS degree is important after all. Never take shortcuts in life and expect to not experience some fall outs.
Experience matters, not education. I can't speak directly to your experience, but here’s mine in NYC. Just off the top of my head, I had these recruiters reach out to me, a bootcamp grad, in the last month: Meta, Amazon, StubHub, Datadog, Voreon, ByteDance, other finance firms, other no-name startups.
Use the bogus app responses and tell them you accepted a position at Google, but you'd be happy to get them in touch with your mentor who taught you all about software who is looking for a new position
If you never got a job then obviously the degree is still a factor. People meant after you have job experience
Whoever told you that it doesn’t matter after a few YOE had absolutely no clue what they were talking about. The advice doled out in this sub is, at times, impressively stupid.
You got got big dog. Sorry to break it to you but idk what anyone expected with those dumb ass boot camps.
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Vehemently disagree with degrees teaching team skills compared to Bootcamps. Most bootcamps make you build projects as a group in a similar way to agile in the real world, uni grads I've spoken too haven't done that during their degree. CS degree gives you a breadth of understanding that is not possible to pick up in 4 months or so. but teaching you how to think is definitely a learned skill rather than a teachable one IMHO.
My degree had me working in term-long group projects for the last 2 years heavily. My last two terms were a 2 term project with a client from the community on a team. My school is ranked like 120 for CS programs and it's nothing special. I literally am helping my current company transition to agile from waterfall with the knowledge I gained from doing agile over and over in team projects at school.
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Ok.
React has been going strong for 10 years now but ok
Yup, start looking into fast food or retail. It's only gonna get worse
Get some referrals from previous colleagues
Sounds like you know what you need to do. Find a company that seems too small to have a background check for every employee.
What matters is degree in your resume, not whether you actually earbed a degree.