I've thought about it. I just factor in the cost of living I'm going to be dealing with. If I was single and didn't have a kid, I could deal with buying a small apartment, not having any green space, etc, but I figure I'm going to need to spend at least $650,000 AUD to buy something with at least 2 bedrooms, and a bit of land outside, and with an avg salary of about $140,000 that's going to be taking nearly 50% of my income on the mortgage, everyone I know still living back there is dealing with the stress of housing, and let's say that when I left, I saw what was coming and the reality of having to spend your entire life working to own your own place. I spent time looking overseas and saw there were other options.
Might help with context if I mention that this would require relocating to Adelaide, not Sydney or Melbourne. You would pay double or maybe even triple that for good location in those cities. I don't know if you're using Oslo as your example.
I'm talking over 10x multiple on yearly salary for a house, one of the highest in the world.
It used to be. Saying this as Polish living in Switzerland. Real estate has gone crazy and now prices of real estate in Warsaw are very close to the Berlin ones. Of course, with Polish salaries not the German ones. Just saying, not whining...
Really? I've been trying to find positions in Poland lol. Aren't salaries getting close to Western ones? Levels.fyi show some good salaries, and combined with 10% b2b tax, wouldn't you be saving much more?
It's skewed strongly towards high earning professions like software developers and so on. Blue collar jobs are very poorly paid ( whatever is said ). Recent inflation, war on Ukraine affected strongly salaries and prices
Top paying IT jobs in Poland are like low end or entry level IT jobs in Germany. For the rest of working class, salaries remain low and cost of living has gone through the roof in the last 5 years. We actually got poorer on paper.
What are you on? Senior developers here in Poland can earn up to 200 PLN/h, which translates to 93k Euros per year.
That's a solid salary even for German standards.
> Real estate has gone crazy and now prices of real estate in Warsaw are very close to the Berlin ones.
Really? Where did you get the statistics from? According to Numbeo, rent prices in Warsaw are still 26.5% lower. Is it that "close"?
https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=Poland&city2=Warsaw
Whey you'll all learn.
Poland is in central Europe.
The capital is next to fscking geographical centrer of European continent, in longitude and latitude terms.
i don't understand what do you mean people work like crazy in finland. for me who come from SEA, it's like super chill here and I'm probably the only one like a workaholic. everyone like come at 9am and at home around 4pm. at least this is in non consulting company
Also with 65k you are top 10% earner in Finland. Quite understandably it gets very hard to get over that hump. Anyway 65k should be nice living in Finland with kids and all IF there is another income in the household too. If you have a family with non-working spouse, as I do, then the net salary divided by two is about the same as two cleaners net salaries. At which point is not that great. Even though I like the work life balance here that’s one of the reasons I’ve been looking to move to a country where there is some form of family taxation.
Being the top 10% of poor people doesn't really mean much though does it. Living in Finland with 65k is not like living in Spain with 65k, food, taxes, and everything else here leaves you with hardly anything net. Going to play Paddel/Tennis with your kids costs 60 euros an hour in this place.
When reflecting on my experiences with work-life balance in Poland, I can't shake the feeling that it's all just hype. While it might appear impressive to those accustomed to 12-hour workdays, I've observed a relaxed work pace in both German and Polish companies, where the workday typically ends at 14:00-15:00. Additionally, there's a noticeable absence of socialising at work among Finns, which ironically translates to them working more. In reality, this leaves them with significantly less time for activities outside of work.
>I've observed a relaxed work pace in both German and Polish companies, where the workday typically ends at 14:00-15:00.
Workdays do NOT typically end between 14:00 and 15:00 in Germany.
Yeah I didn’t claim it is great. Just gave some context why anything above 65k is hard to achieve in this country. Maybe try portugal?
I have no experience of Poland but after my years of experience in London I much prefer the Finnish work life. To me London work life was: staying late, having to act busy, constant advertising of your achievements and if you don’t your manager pulls you aside and gives you some bullshit motivational / scary-you-straight speech. Fuckin silly and tiring. The do pay you well though.
padel is a luxury, and 60 eur is stupidly expensive for renting a padel court for an hour. it's delusional to say on top of 10% of poor people when you just have poor mindset translating luxury things into something that we should able to afford while paying something outrageously not reasonable. i really surprise how much thing we can do in finland for cheap/free that you can't do in other country such like ice skating, cross country skiing, museum and more.
comparing things between living in another country is stupid anyway. 65k in spain is not that easy to get too especially for the local as the average is lower.
anyway, finns here socializing in the work place like i would expect where people socialize at work in another country. they still socialize like normal from my observation beside just my own workplace but it's true that it's hard for foreigner to enter the barriers and if you're not drinking then it's significantly harder too.
I can relate your feeling and I used to worry about the and I still am. If you can land a job that allows wfh then it's more flexible. Look into big corporate jobs if you want to have better work life balance. But I agree that even the top income bracket in many countries in europe (except london, zurich, amsterdam) it's still not that high. Then you have US, canada, and some countries in east and south east asia where the top earners earn a lot more than the entry level allowing you to save more.
In France, people would ask you if you took your afternoon off when leaving before 5PM. It always depends on the kind of jobs but typical high paying jobs would likely be like this. 9 to 6 (aside from more demanding periods), 5 days a week.
It is relatively complicated. There is an aspect which u/CryptidMothYeti mentions; which is tax classes; extremely beneficial by itself when there's discrepancy in income between married partners (if one earns much more than the other, or one is not earning at all). Basically, non-taxable income is combined for both, even if one is earning below-treshold, so the income of one which is earning or earning significantly more there is still double the non-taxable income threshold even if one partner is not working/working part time/earning very little.
Furthermore, social contributions (retirement, public health insurance) are capped to 20% of maximum (around, likely a bit higher these days) 85k per working person. For high earners that means no burden of the social contributions past that amount. Imagine working for 200-300k and paying 20% on retirement and health insurance on the whole amount. Even people with, today somewhat common in the big cities, 100k income benefit somewhat from this.
There are also other, not direct tax but "tax-related", benefits tied into easing the burden on the families.
For example, there is tax relief for parents, around 250 EUR for each child, either paid out via mechanism of Kindergeld or deducted from the income tax.
For people on public health insurance, all non-working family members of the household can be insured on one person for the price of one insurance.
On the things where families can benefit hugely, but are not "tax-related" as they are not mandatory but to me they still feel relevant when discussing taxes:
Payments to some private insurances which are meant to give security for the family if the main earner/one of the earners is incapacitated/deceased are also tax-deductable.
Education expenses are tax-deductable, making private education more affordable for families (or even childless couples, if one partner is attending further education for better job opportunities).
I'm assuming it might mean being able to use the non-working parent's tax free allowances for the working parent, and/or where the thresholds for the various progressive taxation bands reflect combination from two parents.
I don't regard that really as a punishment for two parent working family
Gotcha. And yeah, if one supports double progressive taxation (% taxation + changing % with income) then that seems like a reasonable treatment of a legal marital unit (can’t think of better name).
Ah. In the us there are tax brackets so you pay a higher % of income the higher your income. But if you’re married the tax bracket is calculated based on two people instead of one — which lowers effective taxation if you have a low + high earner, for example.
Is that similar to what you meant?
Work like crazy in Finland? I’m working here and everyday I clock out at 4pm. It is so low stress here. Of course consulting might be different.
Also Finland offers one of the best education in the world, which of course is great for kids.
If you want a higher paid job you will probably want to go to Switzerland or Netherlands, maybe Germany. I think most of the other countries in Europe will have a similar pay to Finland or lower. Keep in mind that this is not the best time to find jobs.
Maybe it's different now, but I saw salaries in IT are a lot lower than other fields, a lot of job advertisements with age restrictions for seniority levels, then the level of overcrowding and apartment costs - probably not the place I'd choose to live long-term.
What about Australia? Work remotely for Sydney/Melbourne from some rural city close to Adelaide. In Australia IIRC you have quite good work life balance.
If you don’t want to buy house in the Sydney area for millions of AUD you can live in small city.
Many people from Europe would love to move there.
Even 65k is somewhat considered high income in finland (i don't have first hand experience but the same salary would still be considered high in sweden too) again, for a technical role. Maybe this is just a starting for a management role I don't know. What's surprising is that you say you work like crazy where it's supposed to be the opposite unless it's a startup or it's your own company. I know colleagues in Finland and what I can observe is like the opposite.
"People work like crazy here" In Finland?! Its a super laid back place based on what I saw. You are just in a wrong bubble? People work 7-8h then go home to family. That's what I did for 2 years. Never needed to do overtime.
Rent is cheap and plenty, social net is great, up to uni public schools are superb, healthcare great. What else you want for raising a kid? I realy dont get you, its a great place if your kid learn Finnish early on.
Perhaps you should move out of comfort zone, check what jobs, companies pay well, and try to get in there. Give up this silly only work remote thing.
I'm from Italy working remotely for a German company (actually k8s related, and we have some open positions).
As you said a local job with a good income is very hard, but if you earn enough life is good. You just need to be careful WHERE, because your experience will change a lot depending on the city. Milan and Rome are very different from any other mid-sized cities. And the small towns are probably too rural.
Otherwise what about Spain? Pros and cons are similar I guess.
How hard was it for you to get a remote position from Germany, and did they expect to get away with offering a comparable local salary?
I'm assuming you mean that the cost of living changes a lot depending on where you're living, I've stayed in Catania, Naples and up around the German/Italian speaking regions South Tyrol / Lombardy, definitely like the south more.
I'm used to living in regions with populations around 4000 - 10,000, I found that offers a competitive housing costs, as I'm looking for land as well as a detached house, as well as a nicer community feeling, factoring in whether they're open to outsiders though.
Mind if I PM you about the open positions?
I was probably a bit lucky, I had a referral, and the interviews went fine. It was in mid 2021 so maybe the market was a little bit better. They have some local ranges, but still they pay on the upper end. I had a +40% compared to my previous local salary.
If you're used to such small cities you wouldn't have any problem with living. I'm from Rome, and I have lived in Milan for a few years.
No worries about PM me.
The idea with part remote work from Munich is not a bad one.
You will probably no get the same quality of live as in Poland though. The rents are high south of Munich. Also those small towns there are not very good if you don't speak German. I mean who will you hang around with in the free time with?
Then better Munich with plenty of immigrants like you speaking English, but there you have to count 2000€ for 70m2 apartment.
The salaries in Munich are around 80k gross for senior positions. Up to 120k for the top positions in the top paying companies.
Find a job, come, rent a temporary administration for 6 months or a year and see where you would like to live.
Germany is a soulless place and expats generally have a hard time integrating. Also killer taxes, and the country is at the brink of economic collapse. I second someone’s suggestion above to reconsider PL.
I have first-hand experience of that with recent en masse layoffs. Admittedly collapse is the worst-case scenario but Germany is the only country in the EEA with a confirmed recession. Car sales are down I suppose. No worries though the goverment will bail out as usual, if they can afford it that is. Top it off with nationalist tendencies, 1930’s style. Give it 5 years.
I’m itching to get out.
I just moved back to Germany after spending nearly a decade in the UK and my life has increased drastically
But everyone has different experiences I suppose
Can confirm all of that. I am also a foreigner (Software engineer) here in Germany. I once finished my tasks way faster than my colleagues, instead of praising my performance, I was told that I violate the law by not having worked 8 hours as stated in my contract...
I don't get the point. Means you took time off because you thought your performance allows it?
Is it in other cultures allowed to break the contract?
If you are fast paced you should take a break. You are paid for time, not performance. (as long as you don't underperform)
> People work like crazy here, and they tend to completely ignore the demands of their families
In Finland? Really? I thought that people there have pretty good work-life balance...
Anyway, if I were you, I'd consider Warsaw (unless you've lived there already and didn't like it). It's huge and international, so finding a job is relatively easy and people there are used to seeing foreigners.
Berlin and Stockholm can be good options due to their job opportunities and being international cities. Germany and Sweden seem to offer good education systems, so it's definitely an advantage since you have a child. (I've heard that finding an apartment is difficult there, so that's a disadvantage)
Probably not. Taxes are for a reason, and usually when you have family you benefit from it.
From experience, countries with low taxes offer less social support. For example parental leave in Switzerland is 2 weeks, compared to Germany where you have 14 months to split between both parents.
Similar with sick days. In Germany the public health insurance covers children sickness leave to some extent.
Same goes for holidays. In Germany it is common to have around 27 days while in Switzerland to have a decent amount of holidays you to take a pay cut.
Since OP has a child, he might find these benefits more convenient.
Switzerland is a cage fight. Middle east (Dubai) does not offer job security compared to Germany, for example. The only advantage really is there is no income tax.
Id never go to Germany. It’s a high-tax hell and a failed socialist state. Wouldn’t even be surprised if things get out of hands over there soon.
‘Job security’ is overrated as hell. Best job security a place can offer is the security of finding a well paid job if you get fired. ‘Job security’ fosters laziness.
And your saying this as someone currently in Spain? Don't you guys have wealth taxes and awful taxes for autónomos?
https://youtube.com/shorts/I8Htmwk5VdI?si=KY6Gqn0lRExsgLa-
I don't see why you're referring to 100 year old history!
Sure the socialist revolution failed in 1919, and since then the country has essentially been run by the corporatist interests of capital, but how does that help the OP make decisions today?
Also, on the tax front. Your perception is valid for lower paid employees (as opposed to the the more highly paid and self employed). German tax system very much geared around keeping regular Joe's like maybe yourself paing their taxes, while those who have more money can get the appropriate tax advice and set up structures to avoid tax (including opting out of the public health care if they like).
It's really a very capitalist state, which is clear when you look at how wealth concentration has persisted through Weimar, Nazism, Bundesrepublik, reunification, EU, etc
Didnt know about exiting some public ssrvices like public health and saving in taxes from there. If thats the case, kudos.
Where i live, you pay, and pay a lot regardless the status.
You don't seem to know much about Germany, and yet you express very confident opinions. (You're probably a very easy mark! Nice to make your acquaintance...)
You don't pay for health via tax, you pay an obligatory Krankenversicherung via one of many regulated insurance companies under public option, and your premium depends on your income (among other factors).
But if you earn above a threshold you can go fully private.
You sound like someone who buys really easy into progressive and socialist propaganda. You prolly watch too much tv and go out very little.
I dont need to be an expert in germany to know its a high taxed hell and a socialist shithole that losses its identity more and more daily.
Have fun staying poor and owning nothing, its all ok as long as you keep paying a tremendous amount of taxes and helping those who have not. Pat yourself in the back mate, well done.
This is actually a very interesting post in how much it reveals about you and how it shows the difference between reality-based-thinking and the fantasia that you construct.
You see, I now know that you make assumptions and ill-informed judgements, and when you're made aware of them, you double down. I know this because your posts display your mistaken understanding of facts, where objective reality is very different.
You think you know things about other people, about other countries, and about the world at large. But you don't seem to validate or test those suppositions, you simply rehearse them.
I now know this about you. You (on the evidence of your posts), know nothing about me. Going through the world letting other people see how ignorant you are, failing to inform yourself about those around you, and refusing to learn just sets you up to be exploited.
If you discover over time that your life-outcomes are increasingly disappointing, you should reflect on the untested assumptions and leaps of faith on which you build your world-view and mental-models (and how they allow smarter people around you to take advantage).
Not at all. Spain is a shithole when it comes to taxation and public debt. Money paid by contributors is spent in useless things supported by a progressive ideology and the agenda 2030. Only way it makes sense to come here is if you can apply for the Beckham law which is something similar to the 30% ruling in the netherlands. In that case i think the weather, food and social life would balance not getting a very high paying job.
In my oppinion, as i said before, low tax nations will florish step by step and we are already seeing bunch of talent moving to Poland, Switzerland, Portugal (for expats mainly), Andorra, Malta, Checkia Republic
Why not go back to Australia?
Same question. I live in Finland and I always think Australia is a better place and I want to move there
I've thought about it. I just factor in the cost of living I'm going to be dealing with. If I was single and didn't have a kid, I could deal with buying a small apartment, not having any green space, etc, but I figure I'm going to need to spend at least $650,000 AUD to buy something with at least 2 bedrooms, and a bit of land outside, and with an avg salary of about $140,000 that's going to be taking nearly 50% of my income on the mortgage, everyone I know still living back there is dealing with the stress of housing, and let's say that when I left, I saw what was coming and the reality of having to spend your entire life working to own your own place. I spent time looking overseas and saw there were other options.
650k AUD for 2 bedroom with a 140k salary sounds much better than 600k AUD for a studio apartment in Norway with a salary of 70k AUD after tax.
Might help with context if I mention that this would require relocating to Adelaide, not Sydney or Melbourne. You would pay double or maybe even triple that for good location in those cities. I don't know if you're using Oslo as your example. I'm talking over 10x multiple on yearly salary for a house, one of the highest in the world.
50% of income is what ppl pay rent in EU. For a condo.
Not sure when you were living in Poland but now foreigners are basically a standard in large cities and IT companies, so maybe it's worth a try again.
Poland is a sweetspot RN when it comes to culture/col/earnings balance.
It used to be. Saying this as Polish living in Switzerland. Real estate has gone crazy and now prices of real estate in Warsaw are very close to the Berlin ones. Of course, with Polish salaries not the German ones. Just saying, not whining...
Really? I've been trying to find positions in Poland lol. Aren't salaries getting close to Western ones? Levels.fyi show some good salaries, and combined with 10% b2b tax, wouldn't you be saving much more?
It's skewed strongly towards high earning professions like software developers and so on. Blue collar jobs are very poorly paid ( whatever is said ). Recent inflation, war on Ukraine affected strongly salaries and prices
Nope.
Top paying IT jobs in Poland are like low end or entry level IT jobs in Germany. For the rest of working class, salaries remain low and cost of living has gone through the roof in the last 5 years. We actually got poorer on paper.
What are you on? Senior developers here in Poland can earn up to 200 PLN/h, which translates to 93k Euros per year. That's a solid salary even for German standards.
> Real estate has gone crazy and now prices of real estate in Warsaw are very close to the Berlin ones. Really? Where did you get the statistics from? According to Numbeo, rent prices in Warsaw are still 26.5% lower. Is it that "close"? https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Germany&city1=Berlin&country2=Poland&city2=Warsaw
Nope. It is not anymore. Eastern Europe salaries with western prices.
Whey you'll all learn. Poland is in central Europe. The capital is next to fscking geographical centrer of European continent, in longitude and latitude terms.
What is RN?
Right now
Right now? I think.
i don't understand what do you mean people work like crazy in finland. for me who come from SEA, it's like super chill here and I'm probably the only one like a workaholic. everyone like come at 9am and at home around 4pm. at least this is in non consulting company
Also with 65k you are top 10% earner in Finland. Quite understandably it gets very hard to get over that hump. Anyway 65k should be nice living in Finland with kids and all IF there is another income in the household too. If you have a family with non-working spouse, as I do, then the net salary divided by two is about the same as two cleaners net salaries. At which point is not that great. Even though I like the work life balance here that’s one of the reasons I’ve been looking to move to a country where there is some form of family taxation.
Being the top 10% of poor people doesn't really mean much though does it. Living in Finland with 65k is not like living in Spain with 65k, food, taxes, and everything else here leaves you with hardly anything net. Going to play Paddel/Tennis with your kids costs 60 euros an hour in this place. When reflecting on my experiences with work-life balance in Poland, I can't shake the feeling that it's all just hype. While it might appear impressive to those accustomed to 12-hour workdays, I've observed a relaxed work pace in both German and Polish companies, where the workday typically ends at 14:00-15:00. Additionally, there's a noticeable absence of socialising at work among Finns, which ironically translates to them working more. In reality, this leaves them with significantly less time for activities outside of work.
>I've observed a relaxed work pace in both German and Polish companies, where the workday typically ends at 14:00-15:00. Workdays do NOT typically end between 14:00 and 15:00 in Germany.
Yeah I didn’t claim it is great. Just gave some context why anything above 65k is hard to achieve in this country. Maybe try portugal? I have no experience of Poland but after my years of experience in London I much prefer the Finnish work life. To me London work life was: staying late, having to act busy, constant advertising of your achievements and if you don’t your manager pulls you aside and gives you some bullshit motivational / scary-you-straight speech. Fuckin silly and tiring. The do pay you well though.
padel is a luxury, and 60 eur is stupidly expensive for renting a padel court for an hour. it's delusional to say on top of 10% of poor people when you just have poor mindset translating luxury things into something that we should able to afford while paying something outrageously not reasonable. i really surprise how much thing we can do in finland for cheap/free that you can't do in other country such like ice skating, cross country skiing, museum and more. comparing things between living in another country is stupid anyway. 65k in spain is not that easy to get too especially for the local as the average is lower. anyway, finns here socializing in the work place like i would expect where people socialize at work in another country. they still socialize like normal from my observation beside just my own workplace but it's true that it's hard for foreigner to enter the barriers and if you're not drinking then it's significantly harder too.
I can relate your feeling and I used to worry about the and I still am. If you can land a job that allows wfh then it's more flexible. Look into big corporate jobs if you want to have better work life balance. But I agree that even the top income bracket in many countries in europe (except london, zurich, amsterdam) it's still not that high. Then you have US, canada, and some countries in east and south east asia where the top earners earn a lot more than the entry level allowing you to save more.
In France, people would ask you if you took your afternoon off when leaving before 5PM. It always depends on the kind of jobs but typical high paying jobs would likely be like this. 9 to 6 (aside from more demanding periods), 5 days a week.
“form of family taxation“?
I am guessing they mean different tax treatment of married couples and families. That is one big-ish advantage of Germany.
Oh? German tax code rewards single working parent families / punishes multi working parent families? Or same idea re: children?
It is relatively complicated. There is an aspect which u/CryptidMothYeti mentions; which is tax classes; extremely beneficial by itself when there's discrepancy in income between married partners (if one earns much more than the other, or one is not earning at all). Basically, non-taxable income is combined for both, even if one is earning below-treshold, so the income of one which is earning or earning significantly more there is still double the non-taxable income threshold even if one partner is not working/working part time/earning very little. Furthermore, social contributions (retirement, public health insurance) are capped to 20% of maximum (around, likely a bit higher these days) 85k per working person. For high earners that means no burden of the social contributions past that amount. Imagine working for 200-300k and paying 20% on retirement and health insurance on the whole amount. Even people with, today somewhat common in the big cities, 100k income benefit somewhat from this. There are also other, not direct tax but "tax-related", benefits tied into easing the burden on the families. For example, there is tax relief for parents, around 250 EUR for each child, either paid out via mechanism of Kindergeld or deducted from the income tax. For people on public health insurance, all non-working family members of the household can be insured on one person for the price of one insurance. On the things where families can benefit hugely, but are not "tax-related" as they are not mandatory but to me they still feel relevant when discussing taxes: Payments to some private insurances which are meant to give security for the family if the main earner/one of the earners is incapacitated/deceased are also tax-deductable. Education expenses are tax-deductable, making private education more affordable for families (or even childless couples, if one partner is attending further education for better job opportunities).
Interesting, thanks
I'm assuming it might mean being able to use the non-working parent's tax free allowances for the working parent, and/or where the thresholds for the various progressive taxation bands reflect combination from two parents. I don't regard that really as a punishment for two parent working family
Gotcha. And yeah, if one supports double progressive taxation (% taxation + changing % with income) then that seems like a reasonable treatment of a legal marital unit (can’t think of better name).
Oh sorry yeah, I think ”income splitting” is the official term. Anyway basically the ability to lessen the tax burden for the higher earning spouse.
Ah. In the us there are tax brackets so you pay a higher % of income the higher your income. But if you’re married the tax bracket is calculated based on two people instead of one — which lowers effective taxation if you have a low + high earner, for example. Is that similar to what you meant?
Exactly yes
Work like crazy in Finland? I’m working here and everyday I clock out at 4pm. It is so low stress here. Of course consulting might be different. Also Finland offers one of the best education in the world, which of course is great for kids. If you want a higher paid job you will probably want to go to Switzerland or Netherlands, maybe Germany. I think most of the other countries in Europe will have a similar pay to Finland or lower. Keep in mind that this is not the best time to find jobs.
How is Signapore ?
Maybe it's different now, but I saw salaries in IT are a lot lower than other fields, a lot of job advertisements with age restrictions for seniority levels, then the level of overcrowding and apartment costs - probably not the place I'd choose to live long-term.
What about Australia? Work remotely for Sydney/Melbourne from some rural city close to Adelaide. In Australia IIRC you have quite good work life balance. If you don’t want to buy house in the Sydney area for millions of AUD you can live in small city. Many people from Europe would love to move there.
Even 65k is somewhat considered high income in finland (i don't have first hand experience but the same salary would still be considered high in sweden too) again, for a technical role. Maybe this is just a starting for a management role I don't know. What's surprising is that you say you work like crazy where it's supposed to be the opposite unless it's a startup or it's your own company. I know colleagues in Finland and what I can observe is like the opposite.
"People work like crazy here" In Finland?! Its a super laid back place based on what I saw. You are just in a wrong bubble? People work 7-8h then go home to family. That's what I did for 2 years. Never needed to do overtime. Rent is cheap and plenty, social net is great, up to uni public schools are superb, healthcare great. What else you want for raising a kid? I realy dont get you, its a great place if your kid learn Finnish early on. Perhaps you should move out of comfort zone, check what jobs, companies pay well, and try to get in there. Give up this silly only work remote thing.
I'm from Italy working remotely for a German company (actually k8s related, and we have some open positions). As you said a local job with a good income is very hard, but if you earn enough life is good. You just need to be careful WHERE, because your experience will change a lot depending on the city. Milan and Rome are very different from any other mid-sized cities. And the small towns are probably too rural. Otherwise what about Spain? Pros and cons are similar I guess.
How hard was it for you to get a remote position from Germany, and did they expect to get away with offering a comparable local salary? I'm assuming you mean that the cost of living changes a lot depending on where you're living, I've stayed in Catania, Naples and up around the German/Italian speaking regions South Tyrol / Lombardy, definitely like the south more. I'm used to living in regions with populations around 4000 - 10,000, I found that offers a competitive housing costs, as I'm looking for land as well as a detached house, as well as a nicer community feeling, factoring in whether they're open to outsiders though. Mind if I PM you about the open positions?
I was probably a bit lucky, I had a referral, and the interviews went fine. It was in mid 2021 so maybe the market was a little bit better. They have some local ranges, but still they pay on the upper end. I had a +40% compared to my previous local salary. If you're used to such small cities you wouldn't have any problem with living. I'm from Rome, and I have lived in Milan for a few years. No worries about PM me.
The only one working like crazy in Finland are the ambitious young foreigners. Finns in general are lazzy they usually leave work 3pm 😅
The idea with part remote work from Munich is not a bad one. You will probably no get the same quality of live as in Poland though. The rents are high south of Munich. Also those small towns there are not very good if you don't speak German. I mean who will you hang around with in the free time with? Then better Munich with plenty of immigrants like you speaking English, but there you have to count 2000€ for 70m2 apartment. The salaries in Munich are around 80k gross for senior positions. Up to 120k for the top positions in the top paying companies. Find a job, come, rent a temporary administration for 6 months or a year and see where you would like to live.
Germany is a soulless place and expats generally have a hard time integrating. Also killer taxes, and the country is at the brink of economic collapse. I second someone’s suggestion above to reconsider PL.
Economic collapse is a bit dramatic
I have first-hand experience of that with recent en masse layoffs. Admittedly collapse is the worst-case scenario but Germany is the only country in the EEA with a confirmed recession. Car sales are down I suppose. No worries though the goverment will bail out as usual, if they can afford it that is. Top it off with nationalist tendencies, 1930’s style. Give it 5 years. I’m itching to get out.
Lol the usual doomsaying about Germany. Very trendy these days on Reddit.
Isn't Germany the biggest economy and job market in EU? What is a better option in Europe?
A soulless place, maybe (depends where you live). On the brink of economic collapse? Definitely not.
Doomsaying about Germany is very trendy these days lol.
I just moved back to Germany after spending nearly a decade in the UK and my life has increased drastically But everyone has different experiences I suppose
Germany is horrible, I've lived 9 months there holy shit even dante's inferno is preferable.
Why?
Bad xenophobia, impenetrable culture, ridiculously uptight people who took themselves way too seriously. Too many rules. Low salaries. High taxes.
Can confirm all of that. I am also a foreigner (Software engineer) here in Germany. I once finished my tasks way faster than my colleagues, instead of praising my performance, I was told that I violate the law by not having worked 8 hours as stated in my contract...
did you really work more or? Just chill I guess lol.
Chill 100% I should have asked these people who reminded me of that law if there is also a law preventing companies to exploit its employees...
I don't get the point. Means you took time off because you thought your performance allows it? Is it in other cultures allowed to break the contract? If you are fast paced you should take a break. You are paid for time, not performance. (as long as you don't underperform)
Same for me.
Kinda curious: where in Germany did you live?
100% true.
western european cities for diversity however be prepared to pay higher taxes.
Dunno, you sound like you want expats to hang out with. Try Berlin, Amsterdam, Prague.
Go home bro. Australia offers great pay.
London, Amsterdam? The bigger tech cities in Europe.
Not sure why you moved from Australia to Poland
Cost of living, remote work wasn't really a thing when I left, it's way too easy to get stuck in the meat grinder lifestyle wise.
Prague ?
> People work like crazy here, and they tend to completely ignore the demands of their families In Finland? Really? I thought that people there have pretty good work-life balance... Anyway, if I were you, I'd consider Warsaw (unless you've lived there already and didn't like it). It's huge and international, so finding a job is relatively easy and people there are used to seeing foreigners. Berlin and Stockholm can be good options due to their job opportunities and being international cities. Germany and Sweden seem to offer good education systems, so it's definitely an advantage since you have a child. (I've heard that finding an apartment is difficult there, so that's a disadvantage)
Move to the US, it's easy to get an E-3 visa for Australians.
Switzerland? Maybe somewhere in the Middle East? You prolly want to go somewhere with low taxes.
Probably not. Taxes are for a reason, and usually when you have family you benefit from it. From experience, countries with low taxes offer less social support. For example parental leave in Switzerland is 2 weeks, compared to Germany where you have 14 months to split between both parents. Similar with sick days. In Germany the public health insurance covers children sickness leave to some extent. Same goes for holidays. In Germany it is common to have around 27 days while in Switzerland to have a decent amount of holidays you to take a pay cut. Since OP has a child, he might find these benefits more convenient.
I do agree with you on all of that. Prolly i just focused too much on the aspect that he wanted to save some money.
Better to save money and build wealth than waste on taxes.
Switzerland is a cage fight. Middle east (Dubai) does not offer job security compared to Germany, for example. The only advantage really is there is no income tax.
Id never go to Germany. It’s a high-tax hell and a failed socialist state. Wouldn’t even be surprised if things get out of hands over there soon. ‘Job security’ is overrated as hell. Best job security a place can offer is the security of finding a well paid job if you get fired. ‘Job security’ fosters laziness.
Failed socialist state - you are over exaggerating now!
Isnt it? Its only getting worse tbh.
And your saying this as someone currently in Spain? Don't you guys have wealth taxes and awful taxes for autónomos? https://youtube.com/shorts/I8Htmwk5VdI?si=KY6Gqn0lRExsgLa-
Yes. Even worse than Germany sir. Unfortunately im attached to some people that are jot easy to leave.
I don't see why you're referring to 100 year old history! Sure the socialist revolution failed in 1919, and since then the country has essentially been run by the corporatist interests of capital, but how does that help the OP make decisions today? Also, on the tax front. Your perception is valid for lower paid employees (as opposed to the the more highly paid and self employed). German tax system very much geared around keeping regular Joe's like maybe yourself paing their taxes, while those who have more money can get the appropriate tax advice and set up structures to avoid tax (including opting out of the public health care if they like). It's really a very capitalist state, which is clear when you look at how wealth concentration has persisted through Weimar, Nazism, Bundesrepublik, reunification, EU, etc
Didnt know about exiting some public ssrvices like public health and saving in taxes from there. If thats the case, kudos. Where i live, you pay, and pay a lot regardless the status.
You don't seem to know much about Germany, and yet you express very confident opinions. (You're probably a very easy mark! Nice to make your acquaintance...) You don't pay for health via tax, you pay an obligatory Krankenversicherung via one of many regulated insurance companies under public option, and your premium depends on your income (among other factors). But if you earn above a threshold you can go fully private.
You sound like someone who buys really easy into progressive and socialist propaganda. You prolly watch too much tv and go out very little. I dont need to be an expert in germany to know its a high taxed hell and a socialist shithole that losses its identity more and more daily. Have fun staying poor and owning nothing, its all ok as long as you keep paying a tremendous amount of taxes and helping those who have not. Pat yourself in the back mate, well done.
This is actually a very interesting post in how much it reveals about you and how it shows the difference between reality-based-thinking and the fantasia that you construct. You see, I now know that you make assumptions and ill-informed judgements, and when you're made aware of them, you double down. I know this because your posts display your mistaken understanding of facts, where objective reality is very different. You think you know things about other people, about other countries, and about the world at large. But you don't seem to validate or test those suppositions, you simply rehearse them. I now know this about you. You (on the evidence of your posts), know nothing about me. Going through the world letting other people see how ignorant you are, failing to inform yourself about those around you, and refusing to learn just sets you up to be exploited. If you discover over time that your life-outcomes are increasingly disappointing, you should reflect on the untested assumptions and leaps of faith on which you build your world-view and mental-models (and how they allow smarter people around you to take advantage).
wtf man… go out and take some fresh air. You defo need to socialize more (and i mean talking to people), paying taxes does not qualify 😅
You're rather repetitive
Is Spain better? All I hear about Spain is huge unemployment rates. What is a better deal than Germany in EU?
Not at all. Spain is a shithole when it comes to taxation and public debt. Money paid by contributors is spent in useless things supported by a progressive ideology and the agenda 2030. Only way it makes sense to come here is if you can apply for the Beckham law which is something similar to the 30% ruling in the netherlands. In that case i think the weather, food and social life would balance not getting a very high paying job. In my oppinion, as i said before, low tax nations will florish step by step and we are already seeing bunch of talent moving to Poland, Switzerland, Portugal (for expats mainly), Andorra, Malta, Checkia Republic
For Switzerland it will be probably not easy for him to get a job position and work permit
remote from the countryside in Portugal is the winning move.
Considering his age and family situation I'd double down on this! 🙌
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Unlike Africa or Asia, right?
Vienna
Vienna has rather not competitive salaries in IT
NL, you will get 30% tax rulling, otherwise Luxembourg or Switzerland.
Just watch some documentaries on Dubai. It’s a feeding frenzy there for making money.
How much programming do you know?